The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[Eegah]

After seeing the new Ursula, I'm seriously wondering: did they forget they'd already used her? New actress, new design, new personality, massively nerfed powers...it's the only way any of it makes sense to me.

[Mari]

After seeing the new Ursula, I'm seriously wondering: did they forget they'd already used her?

 

Personally, I think they messed up with Ursula.  In the episode she was used before:

• She wasn't thought of as a villain--she was actually thought of as rather benevolent, particularly if you were a mermaid.
• She was considerably older than Rumple.
• She was powerful enough to be considered a "goddess"
• She was powerful enough to scare Regina at Evil Queen peak, while not actually there in person.

 

Apart from the name and the occasional tentacle, what does this new Ursula have in common with the original?

[YaddaYadda]

While I thought Merrin Dungey was really good in her delivery, I was wondering when Ursula became a villain and one that is really not powerful at that if she has to team up with two other villains, one of those being Cruela (does she have magic).  I mean seriously.  And they also made it sound as though she too as well as Mal and Cruela were former pupils of Rumple's which honestly needs to stop.  Does he have to have taught everyone their craft?

 

So now about Ursula, they can basically say that she was a Goddess who was banished for doing something she wasn't supposed to (like I don't know, falling in love which seems to be a big no no for some reason).  She was banished, her powers were considerably diminished, just enough for her to get by which is the reason she had to seek Rumple out in the first place, that's the reason no one had seen her for centuries.

 

How in the world did she get to New York?  I know that mermaids are able to cross realms, so I'm assuming she would be able to do the same.

[HoodlumSheep]

Fun fact: Merrin has deemed her Once fans/followers #Squiddos. I find it pretty adorable. She seems really excited about being on Once and playing Ursula based off her twitter. It reminds me of Rebecca Mader. She still has #WickedWednesdays despite not being on the show anymore.

Anyways, I do hope they don't retcon everything we know about Ursula (even though it's very little). Cruella looks like she could be a possible scene stealer based on what we saw of her last night.

Missing Ingrid now and forever.

[Camera One]

The thing with Ursula is due to their previous decision to make Regina "Ursula", basically, this villain has no connection with Ariel, the protagonist in the actual fairy tale!

 

The only possibility I can think of is they might bring in a history with King Triton, so we might get to see Ariel interacting with her family.  

 

And they also made it sound as though she too as well as Mal and Cruela were former pupils of Rumple's which honestly needs to stop.  Does he have to have taught everyone their craft?

 

I agree.  Can somebody please be allowed to mess with Rumple and strike fear into his heart?  It totally denigrates the power and impact of these female villains to have them be lackeys of Rumple.

[Eegah]

I haven't read the original 101 Dalmations novel, but I've heard there were hints that Cruella was an actual devil, which were removed from all adaptations. Maybe that's where they're going with this one.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I agree.  Can somebody please be allowed to mess with Rumple and strike fear into his heart?  It totally denigrates the power and impact of these female villains to have them be lackeys of Rumple.

 

Yes, I really hated that visual of the Trilogy of Terror standing and pouting while Rumple gloated and reprimanded them like they were children. I mean, they're the "Queens of Darkness." Who's to say that together they can't have equal power to the Dark One? Why is he always the most magical magic that has ever magicked? It's not fun to watch when one character is so overpowered that he can never be challenged.

[Camera One]

It pisses me off to no end that Rumple within 6 weeks with no magic (well, presumably) somehow already finds one of his evil former students and is already moving closer to his next nefarious plan.  There's no comeuppance for all the crap he has pulled in 4A.  And the all-brilliant Dark One needed Regina and The Heart of the Dumbest Believer of all people to clue him in on how to achieve his happily ever after.  Give me a break, and this is just in the PRELUDE to 4B.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Camera One

[Jean]

I haven't seen the finale but the 3 gals were Rumple's students? For real? Why? I thought Ingrid was setting up a new pattern where the newbie villain can give Rumple the middle finger when he offers to teach them. She even outsmarted him! He had to go to her to ask for a pass out of town. How refreshing was that?

I don't know how much control Disney/ABC had over Ingrid but I didn't figure it was a lot or that they would care all that much. She's not a Frozen character and outside of her direct interactions with Anna/Elsa I can't see them caring about the rest. But now it's suspicious to me that Ingrid happens to be the only one that broke the A&E mold on every level.

all-brilliant Dark One needed Regina and The Heart of the Dumbest Believer of all people to clue him in on how to achieve his happily ever after

This is why I have to say sayonara to this show. Rumple having to prop and validate the black hole is the last straw. Not even Robert freaking Carlyle will save this crap and his character having to play prop in A&E's wet dreams over soul sucker, is just plain criminal.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, Ingrid really was the only good thing about the writing in 4A. I mean, Elsa was nice and all, but she didn't have a real story, unlike Ingrid. Everything else, however, was so, so bad, it's like completely different people were writing this.

[margol29]

After seeing the new Ursula, I'm seriously wondering: did they forget they'd already used her? New actress, new design, new personality, massively nerfed powers...it's the only way any of it makes sense to me.

Not only Ursula, but Maleficent. She was in the first season and she did not have the black horned headpiece that she has this season. Also, it looks like they are going for a Angelina Jolie look-a-like charactor.

[KingOfHearts]

Does anyone else find it odd the all of Rumple's students are women? Zelena, Regina, Cora, Cruella, Ingrid*, Ursula, Maleficent, etc? How does that translate to Belle? Then you have Regina, whose enemies are mostly women and whose allies are mostly men. This show's gender roles get very strange. Just making an observation.

 

I'm wondering if Rumple was trying to get a girlfriend, but changed his strategy to hiring maids instead. That's probably the least creepy solution. I have no explanation for Regina, though.

 

* He offered to train her.

Edited December 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[legaleagle53]

The explanation for Regina is that she was chosen for the specific job of casting the original Dark Curse.  Because of his ability to see the future, Rumpel knew that Regina would be easy to manipulate into casting the curse, and that she wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice the heart of the thing she loved most (her father) in order to cast it.  That's the reason that he gave Zelena for rejecting her as a candidate in favor of Regina (because the thing that Zelena loved most was Rumpel himself), and that's what triggered Zelena's jealous rage over Regina's favored status.

Edited December 16, 2014 by legaleagle53

[The Cake is a Pie]

There haven't been a lot of male magic users on the show in the first place. We have Rumple, Jefferson? (I can't recall if he was magical or only his hats), Pan, and the Apprentice. Pan didn't even have his own magic, it was Neverland, the shadow, and fairydust that were magical. Presumably the Sorcerer, if we see him in the back half of the season, and Jafar if you count Wonderland. 

 

Oh, Sidney Glass. I forgot about him. As has the show.

 

I think it's because Rumple is just a misogynist and assumes women would be easier to manipulate and control. I don't think he was interested in sex.

 

ETA:
There has been an imbalance of male vs. female villains as well.

Edited December 17, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie

[Serena]

I think it can be fanwanked that Rumple knew a female witch/magic user would cast the curse (we don't really know what he knew about the curse caster - did he know it was Cora's daughter? I don't even know), so he kept training woman until he stumbled on the right on.

 

I also think the show has more female villains because they can get away with more from them (yes, because of a double standard).

Regina telling Snow she's fat when she's pregnant is "sassy" - a male villain doing the same would be unacceptable.

Female villains can have fabulous gowns and Evil Cleavage

They can get away with more whining, "why won't anybody love me?", please pity me, etc

Edited December 17, 2014 by Serena

[Rumsy4]

Have people figured out that Rumple killed Zelena and accidentally triggered the Time Portal, or it going to be Graham redux, where the good guys are too stupid to put the pieces together? 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Rumsy4

[The Cake is a Pie]

I'm pretty sure the stupid is everlasting.

 

You know what I would really love? If they make Cruella's story that she actually originated in our world, but after the 101 Dalmations story, was somehow either brought or found a way over to the EF. Hence her "real world" clothes. If she has magic, it's because she has been learning it from Maleficent and Ursula (sigh, and I guess Rumple), and now Rumple has to find her, because she is from the Land Without Magic and is familiar with it.

 

I doubt that's the story, but I would love it.

[Trini]

Cruella being from our world first would make the most sense (to me, anyway).

[ParadoxLost]

I also think the show has more female villains because they can get away with more from them (yes, because of a double standard).

 

I have a whole post in me on the sexism at the root of all the female villains being students of, manipulated by, and defeated by Rumpel.

 

But when it comes down to it the biggest, baddest fairy tale villians are female.  I'm hard pressed to come up with a lot of memorable male villains.  Its comparing child and puppy killers (Evil Queen, Malificent, Cruella) to a guy throwing a temper tantrum (Rumpel) and, although I love Hook on Once, he's afraid of alarm clocks in the cartoon.  So its no surprise its mostly female villains.  I just cry foul that they aren't at least equal to if not superior to Rumpel.

[Trini]

Well, if they bring over Jafar (and and the rest of the Alladdin characters) that would even up the ratio a bit.

[Camera One]

Looking at the 90s animated movies, Scar was a pretty good villain.  They threw away Gaston as a villain.  Jafar they saved for a spinoff.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think it can be fanwanked that Rumple knew a female witch/magic user would cast the curse (we don't really know what he knew about the curse caster - did he know it was Cora's daughter? I don't even know), so he kept training woman until he stumbled on the right on.

Well, yes. I knew about the Cora's daughter prophecy, but there's still the Queens of Darkness and Ingrid. By the time Ingrid got there though, he already set the Mills daughter thing in motion. Not sure why he would want to train her.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I have a whole post in me on the sexism at the root of all the female villains being students of, manipulated by, and defeated by Rumpel.

 

But when it comes down to it the biggest, baddest fairy tale villians are female.  I'm hard pressed to come up with a lot of memorable male villains.  Its comparing child and puppy killers (Evil Queen, Malificent, Cruella) to a guy throwing a temper tantrum (Rumpel) and, although I love Hook on Once, he's afraid of alarm clocks in the cartoon.  So its no surprise its mostly female villains.  I just cry foul that they aren't at least equal to if not superior to Rumpel.

 

The only iconic ones I can think of are Jafar and Scar, and Scar is really just Claudius from Hamlet. He's also a lion. There's Dr. Facilier from Princess and the Frog, but that one is pretty new and I wouldn't call him iconic yet. I would still like to see him on Once.

[Camera One]

Frollo is a good villain, though not iconic, and as KingofHearts has also said before, Frollo would be a perfect fit for Regina.  She even experienced a similar issue with lust this season, and both have a penchant for burning their enemies at the stake and revelling in it, willing to burn down a village/town to get what they want while taking the moral high ground.  Henry is pretty much Quasimodo.  

 

I wonder what this half-season would have looked like if Regina chose the villain path and took the Frollo-approach to Robin Hood... imagine if Robin had gone back to Marion without hesitation, and instead of targeting Marion, Regina had sung, as per Frollo's song, "Choose me or Your pyre... Be mine or you will burn" about Robin Hood.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Hades is iconic, but I don't think they have the guts to pull off the devil himself. There's also Dracula and The Headless Horseman. You know they can't resist evil Santa Claus or Cupid. Prince John is a possibility, or even Davy Jones.

Edited December 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[legaleagle53]

And if the show ever does Sherlock Holmes (as supposedly was the original intention with Graham), Professor Moriarty is right there, even though in the Sherlock Holmes series of stories, Moriarty was actually just a one-off (i.e., he really only appeared in one story).  He was simply so memorable that people always thought he was a recurring villain.

[RadioGirl27]

I'm patiently waiting for this villain. Sorry, I couldn't help it ;-)

 

Now, seriously, I hope they bring Jafar to OUAT. I love Naveen Andrews.

[legaleagle53]

I know she's female, but I'd also like to see the Jabberwocky brought over from Wonderland.  Just imagine how the gang would handle a villain whose power was using people's own fears against them.

[Faemonic]

Maybe the Wolf who went after the three little pigs could be a different wolf from Red. More of King George might be good too. Mordred from Arthurian legend would fit right into the abandoned child sob story.

I know she's female, but I'd also like to see the Jabberwocky brought over from Wonderland.  Just imagine how the gang would handle a villain whose power was using people's own fears against them.

I want the Jabberwocky to face down Sephiroth from Kingdom Hearts (okay, he first showed up in Final Fantasy VII, but Kingdom Hearts being a Disney-Squaresoft collaboration gives me hope.)

[Mari]

Could the Jabberwocky be a species, and not a particular being?

 

Because if so, they could easily have a male Jabberwocky invade Storybrook, without  even disturbing the currently impaled one.

[scarynikki12]

I'd like to see King Richard and the twist be that he's a villain with a great PR rep (as my Western Civ teacher described him).

[HoodlumSheep]

I have been waiting for the Jabberwocky and Jafar to make an appearance on Once as well. We probably won't get to see the Jabberwocky ever( they'd have to end the series because she would reduce then to blubbering messes or they would somehow ruin her). Jafar is much more likely though. He seems like on Regina's level (still love the Amara vs Jafar battle, even though it was pretty short they did well with what I imagine was a pretty small budget).

Jafar was evil just 'cause (like pan).

Like, Jafar vs. Amara was what Regina vs. Zelena could have been (with less snakes). Instead, we got 2 secs of Regina being tossed around.

Anyways...Jafar!!!! And....the Horned King. He would be an awesome guy sorcerer villain.

Edited December 17, 2014 by HoodlumSheep

[jhlipton]

Hades is iconic, but I don't think they have the guts to pull off the devil himself. There's also Dracula and The Headless Horseman. You know they can't resist evil Santa Claus or Cupid. Prince John is a possibility, or even Davy Jones.

There was a cartoon Hercules movie (I can't be assed to look it up) where he fought against Hades. Hades isn't the devil -- he's King of the Underworld and of Dead Souls, not a fallen angel. (As I recall, when Zeus and his brothers were dividing up who ruled what, Hades asked for the Underworld.)

[KingOfHearts]

 

There was a cartoon Hercules movie (I can't be assed to look it up) where he fought against Hades. Hades isn't the devil -- he's King of the Underworld and of Dead Souls, not a fallen angel. (As I recall, when Zeus and his brothers were dividing up who ruled what, Hades asked for the Underworld.)

"The devil himself" is a figure of speech, hence the lowercase "d". I'm talking about the Disney Hades (which is what A&E would do), who is definitely an antagonist and not a fair player. He fight against Zeus is more akin to a devil than an underworld manager.

Edited December 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[legaleagle53]

There was a cartoon Hercules movie (I can't be assed to look it up) where he fought against Hades. Hades isn't the devil -- he's King of the Underworld and of Dead Souls, not a fallen angel. (As I recall, when Zeus and his brothers were dividing up who ruled what, Hades asked for the Underworld.)

 

That was, in fact, a Disney animated feature film titled -- wait for it -- "Hercules." It was released in 1996, if I remember correctly.  It was a slight variation of the Hercules story (in actual mythology, Hercules [original Greek Herakles] was the son of Zeus and Alcmene, and his mortal enemy was not his uncle Hades, but his aunt/stepmother Hera, who hated him because he was another one of Zeus's illegitimate children resulting from an extramarital affair, and who constantly tried to kill him as a result.)  The movie changed the myth so that Hercules was the biological son of Zeus and Hera who had his powers and immortality stolen by Hades, who wanted to conquer Mt. Olympus and needed to get its strongest champion out of the way by turning him into a mortal in exile.

Edited December 17, 2014 by legaleagle53

[SilverShadow]

I love the Disney Hercules movie. It's super cute and fun. James Woods is Hades. And Herc's love interest Megara is the best. "I'm a damsel. I'm in distress. I can handle this. Have a nice day." There was also a spin-off "midquel" tv series set when Herc was a teenager that was far more amusing than it had any right to be. And yeah, Hades is basically a homicidal used car salesman, and he's a great villain. Also, no joke, the tv series had an episode that was an Aladdin crossover where Hades teamed up with Jafar's ghost.

Edited December 18, 2014 by SilverShadow

[Souris]

Fun fact: Merrin has deemed her Once fans/followers #Squiddos. I find it pretty adorable. She seems really excited about being on Once and playing Ursula based off her twitter. 

 

She seems to be calling them the #Squidsquad today, LOL.

 

God, yes, I want the Jabberwocky to show up! And not be played for laughs like the stupid Spell of Shattered Sight.

[FormerMod-a1]

Thanks to America's Best Dance Crew, whenever I read or hear Jabberywocky I think of this...
 
http://youtu.be/iLWAs_4-V48?t=1m30s

[HoodlumSheep]

So anyone want to take a guess about who eventually back stabs who first? Because I think it'll take a miracle for those 3 and Rumple to stay working together for the entire half season.

[Serena]

I hope the Queens of Darkness stab Rumple in synch.

[YaddaYadda]

Got to love how this show turns us into villains!  

[Mari]

I hope the Queens of Darkness stab Rumple in synch.

Can they stab Regina first? Maybe while singing a jaunty tune? Because Rumple may be evil, but he's not usually whiny and annoying, too. If we're stabbing, we should start with the most horrifying person on the show.

[The Cake is a Pie]

If the villains are all going for happy endings, just what would that be for these three? Revenge for Maleficent? Domination over the seas or revenge on Triton for Ursula?

 

I hope Cruella just wants a fierce puppy fur coat. Because she's craaaaaaazzzzyyyy....

[KingOfHearts]

 

At this point I would accept a villain who just wanted to do the bad thing because it seemed fun. No more villains with mommy/daddy/family issues.

Same here. For me, I don't care how petty and psychotic the villain's reasons are. It's when the show tries to convince me it's the truth or they deserve sympathy that I start to have a problem with it.

Edited December 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

For some reason I want Cruella to be the last queen of darkness standing. I'm sure that honor will go to Maleficent, but Cruella strikes me as someone who could be sneaky and slip through the cracks.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm sure that honor will go to Maleficent

I don't know. Maleficent seems the most lethal. There's always a chance for her to turn into a dragon and level main street...

[Souris]

What happens if two villains' Happy Endings conflict?

[ParadoxLost]

 

I hope Cruella just wants a fierce puppy fur coat. Because she's craaaaaaazzzzyyyy....

 

Cruella is actually obsessed with contrasting color in the original novel.  It would be interesting if Cruella's happily ever after (see what I did there) was living in Frankenstein's black and white world with Dr. Whale.

Edited December 20, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[Mari]

What happens if two villains' Happy Endings conflict?

The happily ever after goes to the more evil one?  (Unless it's Regina, then, well, it's Regina.)

[jhlipton]

If they are both female it goes to the one with the most cleavage. 

 

Then it would be Ursala with the most, then Maleficent, then poor Cruella.