Northern Exposure - General Discussion

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

It's now streaming on Prime!

  Reveal spoiler

Joel's pants are hilarious!

Haha, hardly a spoiler!

[ljenkins782]

14 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

It’s been so long that while I remember the characters, I’ve forgotten so many of the storylines.

I love Marilyn so much.

Wow, Maurice’s casual anti-Semitism and homophobia…he was never a favorite, but I’d forgotten that. 

I'm eager to check this series out as an adult, I remember watching it as a kid but I don't think I really understood the show all that well. Can't really remember any storyline except Joel and Maggie and the young woman with the much older man. I didn't really think it was ever going to hit streaming.

[BlackberryJam]

The Holling/Shelley relationship is interesting, looking at it with a modern perspective. Shelley is 18. Holling is, I think, 63. I’m still in S1, but it’s portrayed very much with Shelley as the one pursuing and pushing the relationship. She is not framed as the “innocent young girl” pursued by the older, skeevy Holling. 

Instead, Shelley has prior relationships and sexual experience. It is Maurice who brought Shelley to Cicely. It’s the Maurice/Shelley relationship with the skeevy power dynamic. Shelley is given the agency to leave Maurice and approach Holling. I’m not going to say she pursued Holling though. She apparently went to him and said, “if you want me, I’m yours.” Holling said yes. They are a monogamous couple from then on.

Even though Shelley is presented as somewhat child-like, she has the power in the relationship. Holling doesn’t parent her. 

I wonder if I will continue to be comfortable with the relationship, but right now, it’ s not giving me the ick. Well, I mean, imagining Holling as a sex machine gives me the ick, but that’s just me ;)

[ljenkins782]

5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

The Holling/Shelley relationship is interesting, looking at it with a modern perspective. Shelley is 18. Holling is, I think, 63. I’m still in S1, but it’s portrayed very much with Shelley as the one pursuing and pushing the relationship. She is not framed as the “innocent young girl” pursued by the older, skeevy Holling. 

Instead, Shelley has prior relationships and sexual experience. It is Maurice who brought Shelley to Cicely. It’s the Maurice/Shelley relationship with the skeevy power dynamic. Shelley is given the agency to leave Maurice and approach Holling. I’m not going to say she pursued Holling though. She apparently went to him and said, “if you want me, I’m yours.” Holling said yes. They are a monogamous couple from then on.

Ugh, I didn't realize she was supposed to be only 18. I can't help but find it skeevy that she was "brought to Cicely to marry Maurice." Like, what was that arrangement all about? I'm only a few episodes in and the only backstory they've given is Holling telling Joel why Maurice hates him and that was very light on details. 

I could buy Shelley and Holling as a genuine May/December pairing that just happened, but the fact that she came to town on the arm of another much, much older man is what makes it weird.

Joel is a lot more pleasant than I remembered, my memory has him as a snooty jerk, but he's been quite sweet to Ed and his uncle and some others. I never did like Maggie and time hasn't changed that. I've also never been much of a fan of those antagonistic will they/won't they relationships where they fight all the time to cover for some kind of attraction, that's way overdone in movies/tv/books and I don't find it all that common in real life.

[Blergh]

IMO, no Northern Exposure discussion is complete without mentioning the straight-woman/stable one Ruth-Anne (Peg Phillips) who [usually] was the voice of reason though even she had her moments- and lets not forget that she was rather brave to make the decision to move to Cicely entirely on her own as a middle aged woman  after her husband's death just to run the general store (which rivaled Last of the Summer Wine's Auntie Wainwrights in terms of having quirky merchandise). Oh, and she virtually raised the parentless aspiring teen filmmaker Ed Chigliak (Darren E. Burrows)  who worked as her assistant- and, even more important, encouraged the pursuit of his ambition rather than dismissing them as mere pipe dreams [despite the many odds he'd have to deal with].  Even in its last legs, when the show totally flew off into the flake field and, otherwise, got dominated by annoying characters, Ruth-Anne remained a character one looked forward to visiting and wished one could visit more than once a week!

 

[possibilities]

Started re-watching it today. I had forgotten how obnoxious Joel was in the beginning. I live in a smaller town than Cicely, so I take a little bit of offense at things like "bumpkins don't know what bagels are" but not enough to make me not love the show. Honestly, Cicely is like a fantasy town for me, in the sense that it's my dream town. I know the show is full of nonsense, but I think Joel is such an idiot for not being thrilled to be there. 

Marilyn is as delightful as I remember her being. I had totally forgotten Ed existed. And in my memory, Maggie looks different. Maybe she had a different haircut in the later seasons? 

Joel trying to intimidate Maurice on the water and then shrieking at the sight of the gun was a cheap laugh-- and I enjoyed it fully.

The Shelly situation always skeeved me. It's so unnecessary. They could have just made her age appropriate and not even bothered with the creepy backstory about Maurice "bringing her there" like chattel, and her "offering herself" to Hollings. Ye Gods. 

I do agree with Joel that having rodents in the house is miserable. 

Sadly, most people aren't as quirky as the people of Cicely. Even (or especially) in small towns. Oh well.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Loved all the quirkiness of the characters and the town. Joel eventually finds the place quite special and rewarding.

[possibilities]

Finished my season 1 binge.

I agree with the person upthread who was saying the Joel-Maggie relationship is tiresome. I wish they would stop focusing on it. And I like Elaine! I had forgotten what she was like, but when we see her in season 1, she's really likable.

I wish there was more of RuthAnn. I always liked her character, and she's hardly even shown at all so far. As I recall, they never do really give her as much focus as they should have.

I actually really liked the Aurora Borealils sculpture.

[BlackberryJam]

I’m enjoying Joel more and Maggie less so far.

Joel, for all of his Fish Out of Water complaining, goes to the events, does the naked man run. Sometimes it’s complaining just to hear himself talk. 

Maggie, on the other hand, is a harder sell. She’s seeing Rick but willing to sleep with Chris, kissing Joel and flies off the handle a lot.

Shelley’s TV addiction so reminded me of COVID lockdown, people sitting like zombies in front of their TVs watching absolutely anything, unshowered…just ..bad.

I still adore Marilyn. 

I see Ed as a much more tragic figure than I had before. 

[SoMuchTV]

Just finished season one (I watched in real time back in the day).  I didn’t think I was a germaphobe, but boy were my 2020’s eyelids twitching. Multiple flu patients gathering in multiple settings, with nary a mask in sight? Even on the doctor?  Loose bagels, handed back and forth? Yikes?

And regarding the season finale, I’m not sure what having the same birthday has to do with having the same father. Maybe just part of the theme of cosmic coincidences? 

It’s not quite what I thought I remembered, but I’m glad to get the chance to revisit it. Maybe I can get through the series before Amazon starts adding ads. 

[Blergh]

Yeah, the sad irony is that the germ phobic Mike Munroe (Anthony Edwards) who lived in his own terrarium and everywhere in a lunar space suit doesn't seem as whacked as he did then!

I kind of thought it was funny how the semi-regular Adam was originally conceived as Cicely's version of a semi-legendary Bigfoot that the citizens (including Ruth-Ann) were somewhat intimidated in spite of/because of the fact that all they knew of him was that stole cookbooks (and a Bible) in addition to leaving behind gigantic bare human footprints. Then, after Joel got rescued/kidnapped by Adam  himself(Adam Arkin)  a reclusive chef who mistook a Bible for a cookbook then described his 'captivity' to his fellow citizens who disbelieved his account. However, the twist was that very soon, Adam revealed himself and  everyone craved his cuisine [while accepting him ignoring health codes re cooking barefoot in an eating establishment] when he'd chef it at the Rosalyn Cafe -  with him (and soon his family including his wife Eve [!] ) become part of the community!

[Anela]

I like Maggie. I’m only a couple of episodes in, but Joel assumed she was a hooker, then a stewardess (not a pilot), and just made a comment about her walking all over her boyfriend, in her heels.  
 

I watched this when I was fifteen.  I only remember Joel, Maggie, and Marilyn.  I had forgotten Ed, Chris, and everyone else, but I really like Ed.  The age gap between Shelley and holling, is gross, and that she was flown up to marry Maurice.  

[BlackberryJam]

Wow. I'd forgotten how annoying Mike was. He's just not... sympathetic. And there was zero chemistry with Janine Turner. 

I have enjoyed Adam and Eve much more this time around. First time, I found them both super annoying. Maybe I've softened as Adam Arkin passed away this year. 

Just reading up on the behind-the-scenes stuff, I'd forgotten how Turner and Morrow were both kind of a nightmare. 

Episodes 3-7 of S4 seem to drop the Maggie/Joel dynamic completely, only to pick it back up later. It felt like they were seeing if the show would hold up without Maggie and Joel. Unfortunately, those weren't great episodes. One is Ruth-Ann's terrible son and another is Holling's terrible daughter. Maggie and Joel will they/won't they doesn't really kick into gear again until she takes him home for her grandmother's birthday in S4E14. Then she starts dating Mike.

The whole season seems to have fits and starts as Morrow was attempting a contract renegotiation and the show was cutting his role. It's messy. 

 

[Fosca]

Adam Arkin didn't die; his dad, Alan Arkin, did.

I did a playreading with Adam Arkin way back when; he is a great guy.

[chediavolo]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Wow. I'd forgotten how annoying Mike was. He's just not... sympathetic. And there was zero chemistry with Janine Turner. 

I have enjoyed Adam and Eve much more this time around. First time, I found them both super annoying. Maybe I've softened as Adam Arkin passed away this year. 

Just reading up on the behind-the-scenes stuff, I'd forgotten how Turner and Morrow were both kind of a nightmare. 

Episodes 3-7 of S4 seem to drop the Maggie/Joel dynamic completely, only to pick it back up later. It felt like they were seeing if the show would hold up without Maggie and Joel. Unfortunately, those weren't great episodes. One is Ruth-Ann's terrible son and another is Holling's terrible daughter. Maggie and Joel will they/won't they doesn't really kick into gear again until she takes him home for her grandmother's birthday in S4E14. Then she starts dating Mike.

The whole season seems to have fits and starts as Morrow was attempting a contract renegotiation and the show was cutting his role. It's messy. 

 

Where can we read the dish on the the nightmare actors?

[BlackberryJam]

 

3 hours ago, Fosca said:

Adam Arkin didn't die; his dad, Alan Arkin, did.

I did a playreading with Adam Arkin way back when; he is a great guy.

Oh THANK GOODNESS. I mean, not that it Alan died, but that it wasn't Adam because, you know, President Bartlett's therapist!

Gossip links.

An extra talks about her experience on reddit

Article about Morrow leaving the show with some quotes from John Cullum and anonymous crew

Key quote: "I think the producers would have been happy if a script had put (Fleischman and O'Connell) on a plane and had it crash and the show went on without them," said one industry representative with connections to both the cast and crew and the production company.

Janine went full super Christian Republican and has a daughter with Jerry Jones, Jr, son of the owner of the Dallas Cowboys. She's written books and I think she had a radio show or podcast about Christian values. 

Morrow seems to have chilled out after leaving the show. Maybe he was just young and unhappy in Seattle, where they filmed. Also, ego. 

 

[BlackberryJam]

Watched an episode where the high school boys asked Maggie to be Homecoming Queen. One of the boys was played by Jack Black. So there’s that. A little annoyed with the, “Maggie is over 30 and SINGLE, she must be lonely and miserable” shtick. 

There’s a lot of unevenness in the writing. One episode Joel realizes he doesn’t need 10 Jews to say Kaddish because he has found a community in Cicely. The next he’s berating himself for losing his New York-ness. Holling and Shelley. *sigh* The writers seem to keep giving them sitcom stories. Chris’ meandering thoughts seem less a narration of the story and just filler for time. Maurice is a complete bigot, then he’s doing nice things for everyone. The episodes are driving character rather than the stories being born of the characters that were created. Ed wants a film career. Ed wants a family. Ed’s going to become a shaman. Whatever B story they need for an episode is just “hey let’s have Ed do X.”

I will definitely have a second rewatch when I can just enjoy the show for what it is, but my nostalgia glasses were in full force. 

I think the first three seasons are definitely better than S4 and S5 (where I am now.)

 

[possibilities]

I'm telling myself they are trying to show complexity of character. For ex, my real life neighboirs are politically the opposite of me, and loudly so. But they have been good neighbors to me anyway, much better than others who don't necessarily disagree with me on ideas, but are just kind of obnoxious personally. But I also do feel like there's a lot of whiplash in the characterizations, as you say. Joel is bonding with the town. Joel and Maggie reach an understanding. Then Joel and Maggie are back to the usual crap, and Joel hates the town.

I am actually feeling much more positive about things like Morrow's acting, than I remember feeling before. There is a scene where he and Maggie are renegotiating one of their truces, and his voice breaks when he's trying to get real with her. It goes right by, but in that moment I caught the attempt to add depth to an otherwise boring plot re-tread. 

I'm also picking up much more on the tenderness in the Fleischman character, which comes out in moments when he switches into doctor mode and stops yelling at people. It's like his obnoxiousness is all bluff for huge insecurity and pain, which when I watched it originally I not only didn't care about, but remember thinking it was no excuse AND that it was more ego-driven than genuine. But one thing that is consistent I'm seeing now, is that he applies the same intensity of caring to everything he does, and that the second anyone is actually kind to him, it unravels him completely. When Maggie's grandmother tells him what she really thinks is going on with Maggie, you see his entire color change. And he never throws it in her face, he just lets it land inside him.

I still don't think it's an excuse. But he seems much more generous to me, and his motives seem more pathetic, this time than just flat out to the bone shitty as I read him before. Since the show has obviously not changed, I guess it's me that has. 

 

I'm also noticing the acting more in other players. I always loved Marilyn, but I am noticing her facial expressions more than I remember. There are several times when a look of absolute horror crosses her face, and it happens really fast but it is like a knife to the chest. 

I also got tired of Chris. I'm in season 5 now, and it's tired schtick at this point. And his acting is one note, too. 

I do think the show gets more stunty in the later seasons. I sometimes just roll with it, because of things like I like seeing wheelchair athletes, even if the plot of having the race there is absurd.

I also think that Cicely is more like a town of 8000 than 800. I live in a town of 900 and we do not have a "downtown" like they do, or the population to support one.

It's funny how they get some stuff right-- like we don't have a post office where I live, and Cicely also doesn't have one either (people get their mail at RuthAnn's).

But then they have all this commerce, and tons of people walking around town all the time. That kind of foot traffic and businesses and a full bar/restaurant clientele is way too much for the population. Not to mention the bus service! When Joel arrived, the bus dropped him by the side of nowhere. And by the time Mike Monroe is leaving, the bus picks him up right in the middle of town. LOL. I don't mind, really. But it's as much suspension of disbelief for me on that stuff as anything else they're doing.

Still, though it's easy to nitpick, it's still one of my favorite shows! So that's saying something.

[BlackberryJam]

@possibilities I have noticed a lot of subtle acting from Morrow and Miles. Despite verbalizing how much he hates Alaska and wants to be back in NY, he doesn't short change his patients. He listens; he addresses concerns; he cares about making them healthy. They frequently write him out of the episodes by making him go give vaccinations in another town or something, but all that does is serve to make the character more sympathetic.

I remember Joel as being always angry as well, and he's not. You're right. 

I also didn't realize how, despite him thinking she's a hooker/stewardess when they meet, he's often complimentary to Maggie. In S2 or S3 I think, Maggie is concerned about her looks and Joel tells her she's beautiful and has a face that could launch ships or something, but then finishes by saying it's her personality that is the problem. That's not the only time. He often provides her reassurance about her physical attractiveness. It's only when he's trying to compliment her as in "let's go out" that he gets completely awkward. Morrow does elevate the material with his choices. 

Janine Turner has expressive eyes, but she doesn't do as well as Morrow does with the writing. 

Elaine Miles does great work with few words.

S1-S3 Chris was a nice narrator of the show, pulling together the threads of the A & B (and sometimes C) stories with literature and quotes. He just never developed as a character. Even Maurice showed more character development. Barry Corbin does a great job with that character.

Watching John Cullum as Holling, I can see how much of a stage actor he is. It's in the way he hits his marks and uses his body, if that make sense. 

I get what you mean about the town size compared to population. I live in a town of about 10k, and while our downtown is bigger, we get the same amount of foot traffic as Cicely. 

Then again, if I can accept Ed's spirit guide, I can accept an unrealistic downtown.

I am still really enjoying the show and suspect I will enjoy it more on second rewatch when I'm not in "rediscovery" mode. 

 

[possibilities]

Another thing about the "Maggie as Homecoming Queen" that didn't make sense is that they said there are only 4 or 5 kids in the senior class. Okay. But then who all was it filling up the dance? That was one crowded dancefloor!!

They really weren't even trying on a number of fronts. But they made up for it in other ways.

[arachne]

I'm happy to be re-connecting with this show now that it's on Prime Video. Actually it's closer to "connecting" -- I did watch Northern Exposure back in the day, but didn't start until Season 4.

Just starting Season 2 now, and am pleasantly surprised by how well-developed the characters are, even in the early episodes. 

I know that some viewers are complaining about the age gap between Shelley and Holling, or Shelley and Maurice, and they sound skeeved out by it. IMO, they're viewing the setup thru contemporary glasses. Back when the series first ran, the May/December thing was just one more quirky detail in a show that was full of them. 

[BlackberryJam]

Yeah…just because it wasn’t commonly thought of as skeevy and played for laughs in the 90s doesn’t mean that the age difference wasn’t actually skeevy. I’m not saying it’s a dealbreaker for me watching the show, but it was skeevy then; it’s skeevy now. The actors seem to be working to alleviate that. Holling is very deferential to Shelley, and he changes his posture around her, being sure to stoop and almost making sure he is never threatening or appearing to be in power over her.

I mean, I’m certainly not thinking in any episode, “Boy I wish we had more Shelley/Holling romance!” I’m thinking, “Can’t we just have Shelley and Holling as he proprietors of The Brick and leave it at that?”

Anyway. A MUCH more problematic bit of casting. Ed’s low self-esteem taking the form of Phil Fondacaro, a person with dwarfism, they painted green. Who thought that was a good idea? I can’t find it, but I seem to recall that Darren E. Burrows was against it. 

In the episode where Holling and Shelley were taking a birthing class from Joel, it hit me that Morrow sounds like a doctor. It’s part of what makes him so believable as the character. 

I’m enjoying the Ruth-Anne and Holling friendship more than I recall. Maybe I’m just older. 

The more the show goes on, the more annoying I find Chris. There’s an episode  of Shelley’s baby shower and Chris keeps trying to bond with the women to be in touch with his “womanness.” Eve responds that he needs to go cut his salary in half and essentially kicks him out. I have never loved Eve more. 

They have also introduced things like Marilyn, Chris and Maggie using the laundromat at the same time, which would have been nice if it hadn’t just popped up out of the blue in S5. Same thing with the poker game at Maurice’s.

Costuming/Hair: I love Marilyn’s brightly colored shirts. They are putting Joel in more sweaters and fewer shirts and ties. It’s a good look. I wish Ed had a better coat than that leather jacket. Maggie’s hair is growing out and is very flattering. Chris’ hair/beard just look scraggly. 

 

 

[possibilities]

I agree with all of this except that, for unknown reasons, I like Ed's jacket. Except I think it's too short and he must be cold in the winter. 

I love Leonard.

[BlackberryJam]

55 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I agree with all of this except that, for unknown reasons, I like Ed's jacket. Except I think it's too short and he must be cold in the winter. 

I love Leonard.

I love Ed's jacket too! I just think that he's got to be super cold. That jacket reminds me that he's an orphan and doesn't have someone looking out for him. But you know, cool leather jacket. 

I love everything about Graham Greene. 

[Blergh]

Why would it not have surprised me if Ed's jacket had been a birthday present from Ruth-Ann shortly after he became a teen and he was so touched and grateful that he not only never considered getting a replacement but he never had the heart to admit he'd outgrown  it within a few years!

BTW, thanks for reminding me of one of most surreal/bogus scenes in the whole series re Joel visiting Maggie's grandmother during the older woman's birthday celebration: after Joel defeated Maggie's local ex in basketball, the ex somehow injured himself and an ambulance was called. Anyway, as they loaded the ex onto the wheeled stretcher to get him to the hospital, one of Maggie's grandmother's friends put a piece of birthday cake on a paper plate- right on TOP of the ex's chest  as the paramedics shut the ambulance hatch door. Anyway, the flaky friend told the ex that she hoped the cake would cheer him up in the hospital! LOL

 

[possibilities]

3 minutes ago, Blergh said:

the ex somehow injured himself

He had a heart attack, or... a "minor cardiac event" as they say.

[possibilities]

On 1/18/2024 at 4:02 PM, BlackberryJam said:

In S2 or S3 I think, Maggie is concerned about her looks and Joel tells her she's beautiful and has a face that could launch ships or something, but then finishes by saying it's her personality that is the problem.

And even with the negative comment about her personality, he says part of the problem is that she doesn't like them [men], in a way that underscored his feelings of vulnerability-- how does he say that and not come across like he's calling her a man-hating bitch, but rather showing his own feelings of fear? That's acting, because the line itself could come across incredibly obnoxious and insulting.

[justmehere]

12 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Holling is very deferential to Shelley....

I’m thinking, “Can’t we just have Shelley and Holling as he proprietors of The Brick and leave it at that?”

There were two moments between them that had me in tears. It's been several months since I watched (DVDs before knowing it would be on Prime), so I may get some details wrong, but they were so tender and touching, and both involved singing.

One was during Shelley's pregnancy, when she was singing everything. They had set up the nursery, and Shelley was singing something like "Oh, my little pretty one", and Holling came in and sang with her to the baby - so sweet and loving. 

The other was in church, something Shelley needed or wanted with being there (I can't recall), and Holling stood in the back and sang Ave Maria in support of her. 

I was a mess both times, weeping at the love portrayed between them in those moments.

I don't find the two of them skeevy or creepy. Maurice was creepy - thought of her more as a possession - but Shelley went with him willingly. She also didn't hesitate to leave him, feeling no obligation, (and he didn't try to force her to stay), when she met Holling and genuinely fell for him. She was at least 18 and showed agency in her choices. While it's a huge age gap, she was an adult, and it never creeped me out. 

Edited January 20 by justmehere

[chediavolo]

14 hours ago, justmehere said:

There were two moments between them that had me in tears. It's been several months since I watched (DVDs before knowing it would be on Prime), so I may get some details wrong, but they were so tender and touching, and both involved singing.

One was during Shelley's pregnancy, when she was singing everything. They had set up the nursery, and Shelley was singing something like "Oh, my little pretty one", and Holling came in and sang with her to the baby - so sweet and loving. 

The other was in church, something Shelley needed or wanted with being there (I can't recall), and Holling stood in the back and sang Ave Maria in support of her. 

I was a mess both times, weeping at the love portrayed between them in those moments.

I don't find the two of them skeevy or creepy. Maurice was creepy - thought of her more as a possession - but Shelley went with him willingly. She also didn't hesitate to leave him, feeling no obligation, (and he didn't try to force her to stay), when she met Holling and genuinely fell for him. She was at least 18 and showed agency in her choices. While it's a huge age gap, she was an adult, and it never creeped me out. 

I agree , it was her choice to be with both much older men. So obviously, she digs it. she was of legal age and free to love whoever she chose. I don’t know the whole backstory, but if she pursued the men, then I see no problem in ..it the other way around & yes , it can still feel a little skeevy. But I’m no snowflake and these things happen, and I’m not going to get myself in a tizzy about it. There’s so many more important things to be concerned about,  she was not a child.

“Costuming/Hair: I love Marilyn’s brightly colored shirts. They are putting Joel in more sweaters and fewer shirts and ties. It’s a good look. I wish Ed had a better coat than that leather jacket. Maggie’s hair is growing out and is very flattering. Chris’ hair/beard just look scraggly. “

i’ve always hated Maggie‘s short haircut. Some women can pull off a pixie cut and some cannot, she can’t. Her hair and her clothes make her look like a 14-year-old boy. I also cannot stand the actress because of her personal beliefs,  so I can’t cut her any slack.

[Blergh]

19 hours ago, possibilities said:

He had a heart attack, or... a "minor cardiac event" as they say.

OK, I couldn't quite remember why he needed that ambulance.

However, I thought that, right after he'd been strapped to the wheeled stretcher and was due to taken to the hospital for observation, that THAT is when Maggie's grandma's flaky friend put that piece of birthday cake on a paper plate  to cheer him up- directly on top of his strapped-in chest! I couldn't help but think that she'd have been great pals with Gracie Allen and Lisa Douglas!

[whiporee]

I was want to point out that Maurice is a space cowboy. 

Rewatching on Prime, it's a much more gentle show than I remember. Joel's not as bad, Maggie is flat-out beautiful, and none of the things that I expected to be overly quirky turned out to be. It's my current comfort show, so I'm grateful to it. 

[BlackberryJam]

I’m into S6 and realize I’m rushing. I want to finish so I can rewatch again and savor. However, I’m not sure I can watch after Joel leaves. I miss him when he’s marginalized. I enjoy his episodes more. 

David Chase seemed to really hate the show when he took over in S5, so I’m trying to keep that in mind.

I’ve finished S6E4. So far in S6, we’ve had one episode showing Joel how awful his NYC life would be and A Christmas Carol episode showing Joel how awful he is in Cecily. Yet another where Joel is thinks he’s dying and looks at the world different. Each of these episodes ends with a …slightly transformed Joel with zero lasting effects.  I mean, come on. It’s essentially the same moral tale three times. The actors are selling the hell out of it, but there’s no character progress, just a reset next episode.

Morrow’s hair looks bad. So bad that in the “am I dying” episode, the barber tells him he needs to wash his hair before coming in next time. I get they were letting it grow out for the upcoming episodes, but making it look greasy was unnecessary. 

Turner’s hair looks soft and shiny and bouncy, although the cut is awkward. Maggie also gets a “what are you doing with your life episode” including a visitation from her 15 year old self who finds Chris hot, laying the seeds there. 

Speaking of Chris, he’s a dick. The dude who didn’t care about his 30k in inheritance is jerking Maggie around about an item he’d purchased at auction, forcing her to pay 1k (double what he paid) to get it back. Also, he’s now a ventriloquist with a creepy ass puppet. And he has a weird interaction with the new barber. 

Speaking of that, a total waste of Bill Cobbs playing an angry barber in the witness protection program because mobsters get murdered in barber chairs. …okay. And he’s angry because the popularity of the Beatles made people stop getting haircuts.  …sure. I actually think this story could have worked if they replaced Chris in the story with Adam. But noooooo….gotta shoehorn in Chris.

Shelley gets a B story about dealing with Randi growing up and another about a chain letter. Both are like bad sitcom bits. 

The only character doing interesting things is Ed. 

When we last saw Joel and Maggie, they were dating, but that story has completely stalled.

Walt is getting some good lines.

Marilyn. Oh, now I love me some Marilyn, but the Christmas Carol episode makes out like Marilyn is on her own, sending money to support family and without the job with Joel, she’d be off alone eating boxed rice. The Marilyn at the beginning of the show had strong and rich family and tribal bonds. Ugh. So much ugh. ETA: AND Marilyn was getting those periodic tribal checks and that bit of story was excised. 

Ruth-Anne is doing well with screen time, and in the NYC episode, she gets some fun lines. 

No poker games or laundromat of convenience.

 

 

Edited January 22 by BlackberryJam

[BlackberryJam]

S6E8 or is it E7?. Up River - This a big one. This post is LONG. 

Just a note before I start, what’s listed on IMDb as S6E6 Zarya, an episode about Anastasia of Russia, actually aired for me in S5. So Up River is IMDb S8E8 but in Prime streaming, it’s S6E7.

Catching up to where we are:

In episode 5 Joel was doing a medical study with placebos. Ed knocks the pill jars over and confuses the placebos with the medication, screwing up the study. Joel is understandably pissed as he now looks like an idiot to Johns Hopkins, which was funding the study. So more of Joel’s career circling the drain. However, he forgives Ed fairly quickly. Burrows’ acting is fantastic. He makes Ed’s guilt palpable. 

B-stories. Chris gets rid of his stupid puppet. Shelley says what she wants most in the world is to make gambling legal in Alaska. Seriously, wtf? 

Episode 6/7. Maurice has his young cousin/heir come visit, also named Maurice. The kid gets all stressed by the pressure, blah blah. Such a weak B-story, but Barry Corbin does what he can with the material. Chris also has a B-story about electricity and art. Whatever. Don’t care. 

Joel and Maggie, an established couple(?) are heading to Russia for Joel to give a talk. They are flying on a Russian airline. Something goes wrong with the plane and they are stuck on the runway for …a day? It’s difficult to tell. Maggie and Joel bicker. Turner seems to be a little lost in what she’s supposed to be doing. At the end of the episode, Joel and Maggie get engaged. 

Continuity issue: It’s been mentioned many times that no one locks their door, but when Joel and Maggie arrive back at her place, she spends a lot of time searching for her keys while they stand on the front porch. They banter during this and decide to move in together.

Which brings us to S6E7/8, Up River. The episode starts with Maurice pissed as Joel has been AWOL for two weeks. He went to go deliver a baby and never returned. Maurice sends Ed out to find Joel. 

B-story is Chris remodeling his camper and the contractor does crap work and doesn’t show..blah blah blah. Walt is away and Ruth-Anne is missing him and acknowledging she’s in love with him. (Although they’ve been banging for a while, but sure.)

Ed heads up river and finds Joel in a …I’m not calling it a village. Six, maybe eight shacks/huts. Joel is softening hides. From this point forward, the Burrows/Morrow scenes are just fantastic. Morrow is as natural softening hides, canning fruit and stringing up fish as he was throwing around medical jargon. He’s still Joel, but a changed Joel.

Joel invites Ed to stay to discuss how he (Joel) got to this place, so there are a lot of flashbacks. 

Joel has moved in with Maggie. They are making out and laughing. They end up in bed and her shotgun goes off, destroying the bedside lamp and leaving multiple holes in the wall. Joel is upset, but Maggie is all “whoopsie, an accident with my gun, giggle giggle.” Okay, this is the same Maggie whose boyfriends die in freakish accidents, and she’s fine with stray bullets. 

Next night, they are making out on the couch and Hayden accidentally shoots his gun through Maggie’s window, barely missing Joel and Maggie. Again, Joel is understandably upset and Maggie thinks it’s no big deal and kind of funny.

 These scenes are interspersed with Chris and his contractor and then Joel and Ed in the village with Joel telling the story. Joel’s hair is enormous. Joel speaks the language of the villagers and even goes spear fishing with them. You can see on Ed’s face that Joel’s proficiency makes Ed feel inadequate. 

Joel continues the story. A third night of Maggie and Joel. She’s in bed in a slinky nightie. He comes to bed, a problem with the dental floss, he’s tired, etc, but she is clearly in the mood. Joel is …haha…gunshy. Cut to the next morning, Joel arrives at work and Eugene is in his office, repairing a window. Eugene’s relative’s antique gun accidentally and shot out the window at the exact moment Joel and Maggie were getting it on. Joel is upset and feels that something is going on. 

Joel meets Maggie in the street and tells her about the musket blowing out the window. She is AGAIN nonchalant about it. Joel says he’s a rational person, but clearly something is going on, even if there is no logic.

Now Maggie’s response to this has been weird and uncharacteristic all along, and Turner is struggling with the material. Maggie responds that Joel is just embarrassed about his sexual performance the night before. This is bad, bad writing. 

Move to that evening. Joel finds that Maggie has brought her gun back into the house and hidden it from him under the couch. She says it’s fine because they will be in the bedroom. Joel is pissed. As the conversation continues, she reveals that the gunshot near misses have TURNED HER ON.

Again, Maggie has had multiple boyfriends die in weird circumstances and yes, we are to believe that curse is broken after Mike and her bangathon with Joel, but the fact she is aroused by being accidentally shot at while making out with Joel? Idiotic doesn’t even begin to describe it. 

Joel is appalled at her reaction. She tells him, “No sex tonight,” as if Joel is begging for it but Morrow is playing it like, “the very presence of a gun in the house has killed any libido I may have had tonight, or possibly ever.”

Next day, Joel goes to see Chris, as Joel is doing pharmacy delivery. Chris has made peace with his contractor. Chris and Joel talk. Chris is all about, “losing your mind to find it.” Whatever. They put handprints in the concrete together.

Joel goes back to Maggie to tell her he’s ready to open himself up to all the possibilities of their relationship. She’s been crying. She gives him a cashmere sweater vest. He talks to her about how fighting can be healthy and have their relationship develop and grow. He knows he has to be more open. She tells him to move out. He tells her he has to be less controlling and more accepting. She tells him he exhausts her. Maggie wants someone who can let go a little. (All I can think is, Yeah because Mike really let go, didn’t he?) Turner’s tears seem real here, even if what is coming out of her mouth is nonsense.

Back to Joel and Ed. Joel then talks about being at the village, finding out they have no running water or electricity and no phones. He realizes he can let go of everything there and asks them if he can stay.

Joel says he’s found he needs time with nothing, just time to be with himself. Ed wonders if he should stay, and Joel asks him if this “nothing” is what Ed needs. 

Joel walks Ed to his boat. He asks Ed to tell Maggie that he thinks of her every day. Ed asks Joel if he’ll ever come back. Joel responds something like, “whatever happens happens.” Joel tells Ed he’ll be in touch and they hug.

I don’t know if this was Burrows and Morrow’s last scene together, but the camaraderie feels so real. I actually teared up. Even after all the annoying Maggie nonsense and the continuity backslide with Walt and Ruth-Anne, not to mention a really weak primal scream from Chris, I still got choked up by Morrow and Burrows. I also don’t know if those two remained friends, but they sold that scene as two close friends saying goodbye, possibly forever.

This episode is definitely worth a separate rewatch for the Ed and Joel scenes.

Edited January 22 by BlackberryJam

[SoMuchTV]

Now that this is on Prime and we have a full forum and a lot of us are rewatching at different paces, I wonder if it would be good to have per-season threads. I’m not volunteering, but @nodorothyparker are you still the mod? What do you think?

[possibilities]

I just watched Up River, too. And I had the same reactions as Blackberry did. 

I am rushing because I want to get through the whole series before Amazon starts putting ad breaks that will kill the vibe, but also I'm genuinely feeling so much as I watch, that I am kind of craving the way it stretches me.

 

[BetyBee]

10 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Now that this is on Prime and we have a full forum and a lot of us are rewatching at different paces, I wonder if it would be good to have per-season threads. I’m not volunteering, but @nodorothyparker are you still the mod? What do you think?

That sounds good to me! We're only just starting Season 2 and only watch one episode at a time. I'm old, so I saw most of these episodes many years ago. I'm not certain that I watched it all the way through back then, though. It's a relaxing show to watch.

[BlackberryJam]

10 hours ago, possibilities said:

I just watched Up River, too. And I had the same reactions as Blackberry did. 

I am rushing because I want to get through the whole series before Amazon starts putting ad breaks that will kill the vibe, but also I'm genuinely feeling so much as I watch, that I am kind of craving the way it stretches me.

 

I stopped after Up River yesterday and will pick up again after work. That one episode made me feel so much that I wanted to let my brain chew on it. Maggie really doesn’t come off well, but that’s just a means to get Joel out of town. Her behavior is out of character and dumb, but I’m not going to obsess over it. 

Since I wasn’t watching, I looked up some old interviews and the like (while watching football). Anyway, fun bits I found:

Rob Morrow hosted SNL and Nirvana was the musical guest! It made me think that they were filming near Seattle during the time when grunge was becoming more widespread. That had to be an interesting time.

Rob Morrow did an early episode of Jon Stewart/The Daily Show. Stewart looks like a baby. Rob and Jon have some history in that Jon dated Rob’s second cousin or something. That was fun. Darren E. Burrows did Arsenio Hall. How did I forget about that Arsenio Hall had a talk show? Darren seemed sweet and so happy to have steady pay. Janine Turner did Letterman. She came off pretty…vapid. 

There was talk of a revival in 2018/2020 without Turner, and she was miffed about that. (COVID seems to have killed the idea, but you never know.)

Turner made a SM post asking if she looked older/worse than Rob Morrow as they are near in age. Whatever she’s done to her eyes makes her look permanently surprised and the lip injections have done her no favors. I’m not saying she should be excluded from a revival because of her age or looks, but it might not have been a good idea to ask that question. Morrow looks…exactly like you’d expect him to look at 60. He also wears a lot of stupid hats. 

Cynthia Geary looks great. 

Darren E. Burrows makes jewelry now and looks kind of like a wild man.

On the separate thread note, I don’t think there is that level of traffic, but I am happy to spoiler hide my final season posts if people want. 

Edited January 22 by BlackberryJam

[possibilities]

I was trying to be vague at first, about details, because of the spoiler issue. In other forums where I used spoiler covers, mods have come along and removed them. Apparently it's forbidden to do that with shows that have already aired. This problem always comes up with shows that have a single thread. It's a problem.

Blackberry, if you can give us links when you mention articles or interviews, I'm likely to go after them. I realize it might be inconvenient, so I understand if you don't. But I'm interested.

Would be interesting if they do a revival. Maybe if the streaming access generates a lot of interest, they'll decide to give it a go. Interesting that they would consider brining Joel back but not Maggie. I always thought the rumors were that Morrow was a huge pain in the ass, but I guess Turner was worse? Hmmn.... I believe I recall that the actress who played Ruth Ann has died. It would be disappointing if the only female characters to return were Shelley and Marilyn, but II guess the show was always weighted toward more males than females, and what can you do?

 

[BlackberryJam]

Links!

Morrow on Jon Stewart

Such babies, both of them.

Burrows on Arsenio Hall

Ketchup and Mustard sandwiches. :)

Turner on Letterman

She is so very pretty, but the laughing is ...weird.

SNL with Rob Morrow and musical guest Nirvana

The Pat skits do not hold up 

Video interview with Morrow, Turner, Geary and Josh Brand, show creator. (2017)

Initial reboot talk

Revival talk with Turner's tweet about it

Rob Morrow at 60. He's naked.

Morrow in stupid hats.

 

Janine Turner - Surprised eyes, uneven lip filler.

In 2023/2024. She's unrecognizable.

 

Darren E. Burrows.

[BlackberryJam]

Call me insane, but I’m finding Joel is hitting peak hot in the episode where he golfs with Phil Capra. The sweater, the hair, the small half-smiles, the twinkle in his eyes. It’s all working for me. 

Speaking of Phil Capra, Paul Provenza seems so miscast. His Capra is charmless. He looks like a mob boss’s second in command.

Costuming note, I went back and checked Up River. Joel is no longer wearing his Columbia class ring when Ed finds him at Manonash. 

Edited January 23 by BlackberryJam

[possibilities]

I laugh when I see the hair. It reminds me of every Jewish kid in my Sunday School class when I was growing up. 

Then, a few eps later, it's all blow dried and feathered and flat. Sad!

I think the Capras are funny because they are feeling exactly the same way Joel did, but they are playing it gentile-polite. 

Culture is everything.

[BetyBee]

I just watched the episode where a Spirit Chief tries to help Ed to find his parents, or at least his father. (Season 2) After watching (and loving) Reservation Dogs, I was completely comfortable seeing a character engaged with a Spirit elder. I have no idea how I felt during the original run of the show. It was a sweet episode. I just love Ed's character. 

Edited January 23 by BetyBee

[BlackberryJam]

The writing for the Capras is funny, I just don't think Provenza carries it off well.

Young Teri Polo! I've not finished yet so I'm not sure if Helen Santos has scenes with Stanley Keyworth (Adam). I love a The West Wing crossover. 

Character whiplash! Maggie goes to visit Joel at Manonash and keeps imagining him getting killed and is horrified. However, she was turned on by gunshot near misses just a few episodes earlier. I mean, I love the show, so I'm going to suck it up, but the whiplash is annoying.

Also bothersome, Chris being attracted to Maggie as she's now mayor and talking as if he's always attracted to women in positions of authority. He keeps a magazine cover of Janet Reno. But let's go back to the Crime and Punishment episode in which Chris was being extradited. The judge was a woman. Chris was not attracted to her. Corbett is selling it, but I'm not buying it.

Costuming note: Although Maggie has always had real estate (Joel's house, helping Marilyn look) she's generally dressed as primary job, bush pilot. Now she dresses more like a real estate agent. She's less Cicely and more Gross Pointe. 

[possibilities]

I keep asking myself what it is that makes me love this show so much, when the writing is so inconsistent and the characterization and plot is doing the whiplash maneuver so often. It's truly magic.

THE FOLLOWING HAS A SPOILER FOR THE EPISODE "THE QUEST" (S6E13):
I thought that Chris faking an injury to sue Capra for malpractice because he missed Joel was one of the worst executed plots they ever did. The actor looked embarrassed to be doing it, which I thought was either really good acting or really good civil disobedience against the writing team. It could have been a thing, to have the town  missing Joel. That might actually have been an interesting and worthwhile thing to explore. But they did it in such a transparently shoddy way, that it came off stupid, IMO. 

I will say that Janine Turner's acting really works whenever they have her crying. Her face gets puffy and she looks really genuinely broken up. I noticed this in a couple of different episodes, both times when she's saying good-bye to Joel and not in an argument.

I really found the end of The Quest unsatisfying, because of the whiplash problem. They showed over and over again Joel coming to the realization that NY isn't for him, and Alaska is. And then they packed him off to NY as though it was his absolute spiritual destiny. It made no sense. Moreoever, they also showed him and Maggie as finally working out their problems, which in the end it seemed to me to be coming solely from both of them fearing the loss of the other. I realize that with Morrow wanting off the show, they had to split them up one way or another. But it was that whiplash thing, again the way they handled it.

I do think they did a good job With Ed. They married his interest in film with is calling to be a shaman. It was about the need for stories, as Leonard concluded earlier. And he managed to make his way in character, I think the entire time. 

[BlackberryJam]

Okay…so I stayed up late to watch The Quest.

The Chris story was IDIOTIC. John Corbett and Richard Cummings both seemed to hate it. I love the idea that JC was purposefully doing bad work because he hated it as well.

In the lead up, and I did stay up late, but did Joel and Chris get a goodbye scene? We get Ed and Joel in Up River. The next episode, Joel trades with Holling for a knife. Marilyn goes to see Joel. Maggie, of course. Joel interacts with Shelley over the Founders’ Day tapes. Does he also have a scene with Ruth-Anne? I know Maurice at least sees Joel at The Brick. I just don’t recall a Chris and Joel goodbye scene, and dammit, there should have been one. 

Despite that I found Chris grating, Joel and Chris were friends. They deserved a final scene. If there was one and it was cut, what a damned shame. The last scene I remember them together in is the one where they put handprints in the concrete. 

I did read a theory that Joel actually died on the walrus hunt and the Quest was Maggie letting him go. I hate that theory. We had all those years of Joel and he finally learns and grows only to die? Screw that.

I think I read a Morrow interview (which I cannot find, sorry), in which he said something like, “Joel is wherever you want him to be.” So, in a quest, defeat the dragon, resist the siren, solve the riddle, but does the hero stay in the jeweled city, or is it just a way to get home, like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz?

I think about Joel saying to Maggie, “I gotta do this,” and think, “yes, he has to go back to NYC, but not to stay.” I feel like NYC was unfinished business for Joel. It was like he needed to get what he’d been dreaming of to fully let it go. He did make a list of his favorite things and then burned them. He had to go back to NYC so he could walk away from it.

Which brings me to how I have re-written it in my head. My insane head fic is hidden by spoilers because not everyone wants to read this crap. 

 

Spoiler

Joel does go back to New York. He sees his parents, he sees Elaine. He gets his bagels. He falls back into his old rhythms. Then he hooks up with some Columbia friends to talk about a joining their practice. He listens to them talking and mocking/deriding his time in Cicely. It’s like listening to himself from S1. “The worst place on earth,” “town full of hicks,” etc. Maybe there is a receptionist there that never shuts up. One of the doctors jokes something about how all the women in Cicely were likely hideous. Joel says the most beautiful woman he’d ever seen lives in Cicely, Alaska. Maybe he consults with a patient and he treats her more holistically and the other doctor is put off by it. He goes to dinner with the docs and they joke that he’s finally getting decent food. He mentions Adam’s amazing food and no one believes him. A few more instances like that. 

Joel realizes he’s a fish out of water in New York, that his journey of discovery wasn’t about him finding his way to the Jeweled City (NYC), but was about him finding his way home, to Cicely. 

The postcard to Maggie says the same thing. She’s standing in the street. The bus pulls up and he gets off in Cicely, finally home to stay.

QUEUE SAPPY MUSIC

Yeah, in my head that’s how it ends!

Also, screw you David Chase. 

 

[possibilities]

Your fanfic is as good as anything else we've been offered. They did show Joel on the Staten Island ferry, though, so I took his return to NYC as being more literal than metaphoric. I like your idea, but with morrow leaving, they probably felt they couldn't do it. Plus, they did do that episode where he accidentally took Ed's "shaman stuff" and had that hallucination that he was in NYC and basically had the revelation that he hated it there, already. Whiplash!

It was kind of sad that the whole problem between Joel and Maggie was their mutual fear of being rejected by/losing the other. They tried to blame it on Joel being uptight and anxious, but I thought Maggie was just as bad as he was, most of the time. I do give the show credit for showing both of them really growing, though. They reset the plot a lot, but some of the character development did eventually stick.

[SoMuchTV]

On 1/21/2024 at 10:05 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Now that this is on Prime and we have a full forum and a lot of us are rewatching at different paces, I wonder if it would be good to have per-season threads. I’m not volunteering, but @nodorothyparker are you still the mod? What do you think?

 

On 1/22/2024 at 8:59 AM, BetyBee said:

That sounds good to me! We're only just starting Season 2 and only watch one episode at a time. I'm old, so I saw most of these episodes many years ago. I'm not certain that I watched it all the way through back then, though. It's a relaxing show to watch.

 

On 1/22/2024 at 11:57 AM, BlackberryJam said:

On the separate thread note, I don’t think there is that level of traffic, but I am happy to spoiler hide my final season posts if people want. 

Looks like there are varying opinions on separate threads, and I haven't hear back from a mod (maybe I tagged the wrong one?), but I'm more and more coming down on the side of separate threads - maybe one per season, plus the existing "general discussion" one, then people could start character threads or cast in other roles, etc. 

I say that not so much because of spoilers (but that could well be an issue for folks watching for the first time) but because there have been quite a few long, thoughtful posts about episodes that I'm nowhere close to getting to, and when I do, I'd like to be able to come back and read them for the season I'm on, rather than going back and hunting through this general thread.  But for that to work, I think a mod would need to move some stuff out of this thread into new per-season ones.

I'm going to "report" this post so whoever the mod is can weigh in.  Or maybe there's not a dedicated mod and we're on our own.

[BlackberryJam]

I don’t think we are getting any mod attention…so if someone wants to make threads…?

I watched a couple episodes into post-Joel S6. Paul Provenza is terrible. I don’t believe him as a doctor. I feel like the actor had never even been to a doctor he’s so bad at acting like a doctor. 

So, I went back and watched the Joel leaving arc. He does not have a final scene with Chris after Up River. In the Cicely Water/Sex Pollen trope episode, Joel turns down Maggie’s offer of dinner saying he already has plans with Chris, but we never see any of that. It’s a missed opportunity. 

Morrow likely had in his contract that he would appear in a certain number of episodes because he just briefly shows up a couple times. Once to trade with Holling for a knife. In the episode with Maggie’s mom coming to town, he walks into the Brick, Maggie sees him and convinces him to leave. I think Maurice’s last scene with Joel is Maurice walking into the Brick to talk to Phil about the sex water and he sees Joel eating there. He glares Joel’s direction and sits down with Phil. 

Both episodes had enough filler to have added a Chris and Joel scene. I would have liked a final scene with Joel and Leonard too.

I might just skip ahead to the final episode because these Capra episodes are bad. On the other hand, I can be a bit of a completionist. 

I am really looking forward to starting over with the Pilot episode.

 

[Bort]

Sorry all, your mod is away, so I thought I’d pop in. The new expanded forums are so you all can expand discussion. So yes, go ahead and make individual season topics if that’s what you want.

[possibilities]

I have something to say about something in Season 6, but I can't think of a clever subtitle for a Season 6 thread. If anybody wants to start one, I'd be thrilled.