Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[LeftPhalange]

I highly doubt Liez will even suffer any long term consequences for this. I want Lucky to come get his kids but that's not going to happen. The writers are still pretending to care about the hospital so she's not going to lose her job. She might have a sadz for a day if Robin and Patrick hate her but they're leaving so what does it matter. The only thing that would hurt her is if Jason told her to fuck off, which he will never ever do. He will eventually go back to Sam but as a consolation prize Liez gets her stupid kid back so she'll always be able to use that to her advantage. Plus she'll have Nik on hand to dry her tears if the mean townsfolk hurt her fee fees. Maybe even Ric will be pathetic enough to go sniffing around her again. Bonus points if she has another breakdown (real or fake) and checks into shadybrook. She won't lose anything. 

[testardo]

why is Liz so evil. all she has done is keep the people of PC safe. She has kept the killer from learning he is Sonny"s lacky, and a gun toting killer. I think Jason should stay dead and BM should play someone else. The best thing Ron did was dump him in the harbor. Two shots in the head would have been better. Now that Jake knows who he really is, maybe the Russian mob will take him on, and as he has no actual memory and has no guns someone can take him out for good .Problem solved.

[33kaitykaity]

I highly doubt Liez will even suffer any long term consequences for this. I want Lucky to come get his kids but that's not going to happen. The writers are still pretending to care about the hospital so she's not going to lose her job. She might have a sadz for a day if Robin and Patrick hate her but they're leaving so what does it matter. The only thing that would hurt her is if Jason told her to fuck off, which he will never ever do. He will eventually go back to Sam but as a consolation prize Liez gets her stupid kid back so she'll always be able to use that to her advantage. Plus she'll have Nik on hand to dry her tears if the mean townsfolk hurt her fee fees. Maybe even Ric will be pathetic enough to go sniffing around her again. Bonus points if she has another breakdown (real or fake) and checks into shadybrook. She won't lose anything. 

You are so right.  The writers are already giving Liez the chance to redeem herself -- giving Jason back the ring, ostensibly letting him go back to Sam -- before the secret of what she knew and when she knew it finally comes out.  Of course that's the next reveal.  

 

I loved the scenes with Carly and Liez in the hospital.  There's so much history between those two and it was written very well into what they had to say to each other.  

 

ETA:  I like the nickname Liez much better than the one I've used before, Slizabitch.  It's shorter and it gets the point across much quicker.  

Edited December 3, 2015 by 33kaitykaity

[33kaitykaity]

Leaving her in a puddle in the middle of the floor sobbing for days and days and days for all of the pain she has helped to cause.  Nik was in on it, and Hayden, so she's not the only one to blame, but the beeyatch needs to suffer.  

Yippee, skippee!  I got my wish!

[Oracle42]

It was just Cam and Jake. Which drove home to me the point that it wasn't about Lucky being a bad dad, because then she'd be looking into terminating his rights to Aidan as well. It was about quieting up Jake (who was riling up Cam with comments about Jason being his real dad) and locking in Jason further.

And in conclusion, I watched years of the Lucky/Cameron relationship play out on-screen. Liz disavowing it as part of her sales pitch to Jason doesn't mean I .

 

Both versions of Lucky spent more time with those kids both in terms of years and in actual onscreen interactions.

Jakeson wasn't being a father to them for seven months, he was their mother's boyfriend not a parent. And he wasn't parenting Jske either because Liz decided not to tell him about their biological relationship

Edited December 12, 2015 by Oracle42

[tallyrand]

I think Liz meant that Jason had been more or less acting like a father to them and they were starting to view him as such. They were going to get married so Jason would be a stepfather to all of them. The way the kids have been used in this story rub me the wrong way though. Liz's kids should all be sorased at this point.

[peachmangosteen]

Continued from the ep thread:

 

On the flip side, from a (most of the time) Liz hater, Liz is whining about how everyone's 'against her' now and always has been when I have never see that. Right now the only person we've seen blast her is Carly, and it's Carly so of course she would. And Jason sorta blasted her, but I think he deserves to since she played God with his life for almost a year because she wanted to fuck him.

 

I don't really think they don't care about Liz fans any more than they don't care about any fans besides the Sonny ones. I actually think they probably assume her fans will stick by her no matter what anyway. They just might be wrong, I don't know. I'd say from the Liz fans I know it seems pretty even in terms of those dropping the show over this and those still continuing to watch.

 

At the end of the day, Liz won't really pay for the horrible shit she did anyway.

Edited December 16, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[WendyCR72]

At the end of the day, Liz won't really pay for the horrible shit she did anyway.

 

She never has, so why start now?

[dubbel zout]

Who has paid for anything on this fakakta show? Fat AJ, that's who, and he's dead.

[peachmangosteen]

She never has, so why start now?

 

Exactly. Between Liz specifically never paying for anything and just most of the characters in general (except AJ, as dubbel zout mentioned) never paying for anything, I'm not gonna hold my breath on Liz getting any real comeuppance for this.

Edited December 16, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[LeftPhalange]

She isn't called Nancy Kerrigan for nothing. She hasn't even gotten the bitch face slapped off of her once. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I continue to remain confused as to why Liz needs comeuppance. So far as I can see, she's gotten it: losing Jason. She lost Lucky in the aftermath of the affair with Nik years ago; got reamed out by Lucky and then by Lulu, publicly, at her place of work.

 

What she did was wrong, but it's not like she locked him in a cage like an animal and let Jason's loved ones think he had abandoned them. If Jason had been working on trying to figure out his past from the day he woke up as Jake Doe, I could probably blame Liz for her actions. Even though he had flashes and she tried to brush it off, so what?  The only people who should ream her, as I've stated before are Monica and Sam; Especially Monica.  And I know that according to the population of PC, Jason was this paragon of perfection and wuved by everone, but he's a fucking murderer/hitman. I just don't care and am not up in arms over this. What does irk me is the continued trashing of Liz's character.  And the reason why she doesn't learn from her mistakes is because the fucking writers won't let her.  She's held to a higher standard as opposed to everyone else. She is fallible, as this stupid ass storyline has revealed.

 

Until and If the Michael and Vito Corleone wannabe and Cujo get their just desserts and actually suffer--LONG TERM, meaning for the rest of this life of this show, I just don't care if Liz doesn't "pay" as she didn't comit any kind of crime. Unless lying is a crime. And really, lying compared to murder, blackmail? Liz is nowhwere near the level of those guilty of the latter. Nothing she's done is cause for her to lose her kids, even if temporarily. She didn't put her kids in danger; shd didn't abuse them. And last I checked, those are the main reasons for taking one's kids away.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

She's held to a higher standard as opposed to everyone else. She is fallible, as this stupid ass storyline has revealed.

 

Until and If the Michael and Vito Corleone wannabe and Cujo get their just desserts and actually suffer--LONG TERM, meaning for the rest of this life of this show, I just don't care if Liz doesn't "pay" as she didn't comit any kind of crime. Unless lying is a crime. And really, lying compared to murder, blackmail? Liz is nowhwere near the level of those guilty of the latter. Nothing she's done is cause for her to lose her kids, even if temporarily. She didn't put her kids in danger; shd didn't abuse them. And last I checked, those are the main reasons for taking one's kids away.

 

Re: the bolded part - if Liz is held to a higher standard than everyone else, I think maybe its because Liz holds herself to a higher standard than everyone else. Liz will say every day and twice on Sunday that she's better than someone like Carly, and no matter how true it might be its also not a very high bar to set. If being better than Carly is the best she can do, then quite frankly maybe she should try harder. Hell, the only thing that makes Carly "not as bad" as Ava is that Carly doesn't have the ovaries to actually kill anyone, and by Port Charles "logic" that makes Ava the superior person.

 

As for whether or not Liz put her children in danger, that's a matter of opinion. The fact that she chose to bring an amnesiac into her home with her kids would cause more than raised eyebrows in the real world, especially since, as far as anyone knew, she had no idea who this man was.*Why would she ask a random dude to come live with her and her sons? She's not Nikolas, moving Random Woman #812 into Windemere and to hell with what his son thinks of it.

 

And then...well...as peachmangosteen points out, there's the fact that she wanted to fuck him, and she did fuck him, fully knowing that he had no memory of who he really was. Not to be indelicate about it, but that's what happened. It's not just that she lied, its that she lied so she could have sex with him.

[WendyCR72]

And then...well...as peachmangosteen points out, there's the fact that she wanted to fuck him, and she did fuck him, fully knowing that he had no memory of who he really was. Not to be indelicate about it, but that's what happened. It's not just that she lied, its that she lied so she could have sex with him.

 

And proceeded to lie to her returned-from-the-grave son about Senior Jake's identity, regardless of the psychological issues the kid may or may not have, to keep her secret and keep fucking the guy. All the while ignoring some red flags that all may not be right with Young Jake.

 

It may not be endangerment in the strictest sense, but it also sure as hell is not good parenting either.

[Ambrosefolly]

I am often perplexed at this whole "Liz always skates!" thing that the haters seem convinced. I guess she doesn't end up in jail or anything, thats true. She hasn't lost her job or kids, but it has only been 24 hours since she told Jason the truth. Jason did tell her off and left her and at this time isn't looking back. Sam got to confront her beforehand. Carly, who isn't a stranger to lying, got to sound off at her at work, and wasn't interrupted by Franco like the spoiler suggested. As long as Rebecca Herbst is on contract, they won't have her placed in jail, though she still might be forced to go to Shadybrook. I am skate, compared to who. Everyone skates. Lets see Carly and Sonny over what they did for years to AJ culminating in his murder. No substantial or even any jail time and Michael is back to loving them again. Nina induced someone's labor, left Ava for dead and stole her baby and isn't doing time for it or at all and now works as an editor of a fashion magazine. Franco, the serial killer works as an art therapist at the hospital. Ava didn't have to go back to jail for murdering an unarmed woman in cold blood. Yes I know she had a lot of perils of pauline storylines, but she didn't get to do 20 to life for murdering Kate.

 

I don't even think she thinks she is better than Carly. Carly is just a person she doesn't like very much and doesn't hold a high opinion of and guess what, Carly feels and always felt the same way. Carly thinks that no woman is better than her, be it Robin, Brenda, Ava, Laura (remember Deception), Alexis, Kate.

[UYI]

 

 

Carly thinks that no woman is better than her, be it Robin, Brenda, Ava, Laura (remember Deception), Alexis, Kate.

 

Taking this to the Carly thread.

[LeftPhalange]

If Liez doesn't want to be held to a higher standard maybe she should stop walking around acting like a smug bitch who thinks she's better than everyone. And the writers really should stop having men put her up on some sort of pedestal as something to be worshiped because it does the character no favors.

 

I still maintain that if a man had done to a woman what Liez did to Jason people would be screaming for him to be thrown under the jail, have his balls cut off, etc.

 

Jason being a mobster doesn't negate the fact that Liez is a piece of shit. And the fact that she lied to/manipulated/ignored her obviously fucked up zombie son in an effort to hang on to Jason is appalling.

Edited December 17, 2015 by LeftPhalange

[KerleyQ]

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how she "always does stuff like this" to go along with the "Liz always skates" thing.  She suffers consequences more severe, relative to her "crime" than most people on this show.  

 

Liz is quite possibly the only character on this show (outside the old folks) who goes years between actual relationships.  When she loses someone, say, Lucky, she actually loses them, as opposed to the temporary loss everyone else in town suffers when they do something shitty to those near and dear to them. Now she's lost Jason.  He's not going to come running back all "all is forgiven, you're the best!" after she hurts her foot stepping on one of Cam's Lego pieces (which, let's face it, is the kind of trauma Sonny would have to suffer to have everyone return to his Mooby bosom after an offense on this level).   And, unless they remember Ric is a human being who exists, it's probably going to be another long damn time until Liz has an actual romantic relationship.  Contrast that to Sonny who, after murdering an unarmed man in cold blood, spent about 5 minutes playing yard boss in prison, before escaping and getting pardoned.  About 5 minutes after that, he had his whole family back in the fold, including the son whose father he killed and the son whose girlfriend he banged in the first son's father's crypt.  Carly didn't even do a single minute of time for covering up Sonny's murder of her son's father, and she also got her son back pretty damn quickly.  Jason fucking kills people for a living, and he's revered as the town saint. 

 

But, yeah, Liz should lose her job, her kids, her friends, etc, for a fucking lie.  It can be like when courts slap rapists on the wrist and then throw some woman who acted as a drug mule for her boyfriend in jail for decades.  

Edited December 17, 2015 by KerleyQ

[peachmangosteen]

Re: the bolded part - if Liz is held to a higher standard than everyone else, I think maybe its because Liz holds herself to a higher standard than everyone else. Liz will say every day and twice on Sunday that she's better than someone like Carly, and no matter how true it might be its also not a very high bar to set. If being better than Carly is the best she can do, then quite frankly maybe she should try harder. Hell, the only thing that makes Carly "not as bad" as Ava is that Carly doesn't have the ovaries to actually kill anyone, and by Port Charles "logic" that makes Ava the superior person.

 

As for whether or not Liz put her children in danger, that's a matter of opinion. The fact that she chose to bring an amnesiac into her home with her kids would cause more than raised eyebrows in the real world, especially since, as far as anyone knew, she had no idea who this man was.*Why would she ask a random dude to come live with her and her sons? She's not Nikolas, moving Random Woman #812 into Windemere and to hell with what his son thinks of it.

 

And then...well...as peachmangosteen points out, there's the fact that she wanted to fuck him, and she did fuck him, fully knowing that he had no memory of who he really was. Not to be indelicate about it, but that's what happened. It's not just that she lied, its that she lied so she could have sex with him.

 

This is my fave post!

 

And proceeded to lie to her returned-from-the-grave son about Senior Jake's identity, regardless of the psychological issues the kid may or may not have, to keep her secret and keep fucking the guy. All the while ignoring some red flags that all may not be right with Young Jake.

 

It may not be endangerment in the strictest sense, but it also sure as hell is not good parenting either.

 

+1. I mean honestly I think the fact that she was such a bad mom is the worst thing about this whole story. I have always loved Liz with her kids and it's disgusting to me that she would be such a terrible mom to them.

 

If Liez doesn't want to be held to a higher standard maybe she should stop walking around acting like a smug bitch who thinks she's better than everyone. And the writers really should stop having men put her up on some sort of pedestal as something to be worshiped because it does the character no favors.

Bingo!

 

And as for the "no one ever pays" thing, that's obviously true. But for me, as much as I usually hate her, I do honestly believe Liz is a better person than Sonny, Carly, Jason, etc. and thus I think she needs to really acknowledge that she did something terrible/feel guilt for it because otherwise she is just like all the aforementioned people.

[KerleyQ]

And as for the "no one ever pays" thing, that's obviously true. But for me, as much as I usually hate her, I do honestly believe Liz is a better person than Sonny, Carly, Jason, etc. and thus I think she needs to really acknowledge that she did something terrible/feel guilt for it because otherwise she is just like all the aforementioned people.

 

 

I'll definitely be disappointed if we don't see her feel guilt eventually.  But I just object to the idea that she should be the one who gets her life carpet bombed over this when there is so much worse that results in what's basically a metaphorical hang nail for the guilty party.  

[yowsah1]

Until and If the Michael and Vito Corleone wannabe and Cujo get their just desserts and actually suffer--LONG TERM, meaning for the rest of this life of this show, I just don't care if Liz doesn't "pay"

This is exactly where I am on this horrible story. You want to start dishing out consequences, GH, how about starting with the man who MURDERED SOMEONE IN COLD BLOOD? How about starting with the SERIAL KILLER? How about starting with the MOB HITMAN? The woman who KEPT A MAN'S CHILD FROM HIM FOR YEARS? Oh, no, those are the show's "heroes", so they get to sit in judgement on a woman who went to college, holds a job, and raises children on her own. Liz has been publicly slut-shamed in her place of work TWICE now! I was going to ask when that has ever happened to Carly, but then I realized that the person who did that would have to stand in the middle of her bedroom.

And as for the cute little "if a man had done this" arguments, Nik is basically doing the same thing Liz did RIGHT NOW. He's still fucking the woman who's amnesia he took advantage of (and who, unlike Liz, he TRIED TO MURDER). Oh, yeah, he's the one skating merrily off while Liz gets pounded.

But then, Nik and his fans are valuable to the show, while Liz is just an expendable chew toy, and her fans written off.

[peachmangosteen]

I'll definitely be disappointed if we don't see her feel guilt eventually.  But I just object to the idea that she should be the one who gets her life carpet bombed over this when there is so much worse that results in what's basically a metaphorical hang nail for the guilty party.  

 

At this point all I'm hoping for is for Liz to stop acting like she's the victim and that everyone's always mean to her and for her to actually feel guilt. I've given up on her actually facing consequences because it really is a lost cause. And in the grand scheme of things she is probably like at most 5th on the list of people I wish would pay anyway.

 

And as for the cute little "if a man had done this" arguments, Nik is basically doing the same thing Liz did RIGHT NOW. He's still fucking the woman who's amnesia he took advantage of (and who, unlike Liz, he TRIED TO MURDER). Oh, yeah, he's the one skating merrily off while Liz gets pounded.

 

I haven't see any fans trying to justify what Nik's doing. I only go here and one other small board though.

 

And in show Liz isn't getting pounded imo. The only people who've come at her since the reveal are Jason and Carly. And the only thing she's lost is Jason. Although obviously in her mind that is the worst thing that could possibly happen to her, which is pathetic. She still has her kids and her job. All the people that liked her before still do. Oh wow, the people who didn't like her before don't like her now, what a loss!

Edited December 17, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[dubbel zout]

Jake might give her some trouble, since those seeds have been planted. Maybe when he finds out Jason has left, that cork will finally pop. If Liz deserves anything, it's trouble with the son who's been thought dead for all these years.

[LeftPhalange]

And as for the cute little "if a man had done this" arguments, Nik is basically doing the same thing Liz did RIGHT NOW. He's still fucking the woman who's amnesia he took advantage of (and who, unlike Liz, he TRIED TO MURDER). Oh, yeah, he's the one skating merrily off while Liz gets pounded.

 

And I don't see anyone trying to defend Nik's actions or saying he shouldn't pay because "no one ever pays." And doesn't Hayden know Nik tried to have her killed or at least strongly suspect it? If she knows that and still chooses to fuck him that's on her. 

[peachmangosteen]

Jake might give her some trouble, since those seeds have been planted. Maybe when he finds out Jason has left, that cork will finally pop. If Liz deserves anything, it's trouble with the son who's been thought dead for all these years.

 

I think this is really what they should do. Jake especially, but also Cameron, should really be devastated over this situation. It would work better if Cameron was a little older, but still. Her kids giving her the business for her lies would definitely make her see how wrong she was imo and it would go a very long way in giving her redemption.

Edited December 17, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Oracle42]

And as for the cute little "if a man had done this" arguments, Nik is basically doing the same thing Liz did RIGHT NOW. He's still fucking the woman who's amnesia he took advantage of (and who, unlike Liz, he TRIED TO MURDER). Oh, yeah, he's the one skating merrily off while Liz gets pounded.

But then, Nik and his fans are valuable to the show, while Liz is just an expendable chew toy, and her fans written off.

There's nothing "cute" about it and it's not special spite reserved for Liz. it's the exact same attitude expressed towards the Todd/Amnesiac!Marty grossness and that repulsive shit with Johnny/Connie. Because what they (including Liz) did is fucking disgusting.

There have been many many posts about how vile Nik's behavior has been re Hayden. The fact that she was faking amnesia doesn't make Nik less of a pig and I continue to hope that Sam AND Alexis are allowed to make him pay for betraying his cousin.

As for the loss of Jason/ELQ being the punishment? That's BS - why should I care that they lost something that wasn't theirs in the first place?

Edited December 17, 2015 by Oracle42

[Cobalt Stargazer]

And as for the cute little "if a man had done this" arguments, Nik is basically doing the same thing Liz did RIGHT NOW. He's still fucking the woman who's amnesia he took advantage of (and who, unlike Liz, he TRIED TO MURDER). Oh, yeah, he's the one skating merrily off while Liz gets pounded.

 

Oracle42 has already said it, but it bears repeating, because it's not a "cute" argument. I mean, if you can find someone who would say that it would be acceptable if Liz was the one this was happening to, some man withholding information from her about her identity so that he could share her bed, then I'll admit I'm wrong, but if you don't mind I won't hold my breath while I wait.

 

Having sex with someone under false pretenses is skeezy, full stop. That Liz had a blank slate to work with in "Jake" doesn't excuse it, any more than it excuses Ric for the Panic Room, and I don't even like Carly.

[KerleyQ]

As for the loss of Jason/ELQ being the punishment? That's BS - why should I care that they lost something that wasn't theirs in the first place?

 

 

But he was "hers" before the lie came out.  Even after he found out who he was, he had every intention of sticking with her.  He still loved her and had no desire to reclaim his life as Jason Morgan after he found out who he was.  Had she not known the truth and covered it up, then he would still be "hers."   Whether anyone thinks they belonged together or wanted him back with Sam aside - he was with Liz, he intended to remain with Liz, and because she lied, she lost him.  To her, that was a big, big loss.  That's her punishment, in that a punishment should be something that feels like punishment to the person.  This absolutely feels like punishment to her.  Therefore, it's a punishment.  

 

I mean, if they ever had Sonny lose all of his ill-gotten gains (I'm thinking financially here), that would be a punishment, regardless of if we say "well that money never should have been his in the first place, because he got it through crime."  He still had it, and it was still his until he got busted and lost it.  That's punishment, it hurts him.  Or, when Michael (all too briefly, sadly) turned on him, you could say "why should I care that he lost a son that was never really his son in the first place?"  But, he was his son, despite the way that went down, and losing Michael is one of the ways that absolutely hits Sonny the hardest.  It was a (way too short) glorious and fitting punishment. 

[33kaitykaity]

She still has the big brass ones, Liez does.  All of this is Sam's fault?  I've watched and re-watched when Sam slapped the shit out of Carly when Jason was in an accident and I was thinking what are you waiting for, Samantha?  Slap that resting bitch face right off of this effing C-word.  

[Oracle42]

Michael is Sonny's son. He was adopted and Sonny raised him. That's why the (tragically brief) loss was satisfying.

Nik losing ELQ or Spnny losing his wealth/power? According to our judicial system that's not punishment. They'd still go to jail.

Aside from the lie and a question of whether she could "have" someone else's husband - if Liz had actually believed that Jason was "hers", she wouldn't have spent the past 7+ months unspooling.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Oracle42

[KerleyQ]

Aside from the lie and a question of whether she could have someone else's husband - if Liz had actually believed that Jason was "hers", she wouldn't have spent the past 7+ months unspooling.

 

 

But what she's found out now is that, yes, he was hers, without the lie.  So she did lose him.  He found out who he was, and he still wanted to be with her - he didn't go running to Sam as she feared.  So, in that sense, he was hers, regardless of how shaky she might have thought that was before he found out he was Jason.  I think that's the punishment element of it here.  She's been shown that if she hadn't kept the secret of his identity, he still would have wanted to be with her now, but she kept it, so he left her.  Her situation really and truly is "if you hadn't lied to him, you'd still have him."  

[dubbel zout]

Exactly. Losing Jason is the biggest punishment Liz could get, IMO. And it's in the best possible way: If she'd been honest with him from the start, he probably would have stayed, seeing as how he didn't care back then who he'd been. There's a nice irony, even if the entire story has been completely botched.

[Oracle42]

Well, no because she wouldn't have had him in the first place. She used the lie to make herself and her boyyyyz an amnesiac's whole world.

The reason for the lie was that if he had his friends and family Liz would have assumed the same place she'd had before he lost his memory - where there wasn't a lasting place in his life for her

Having said that, I don't want her to lose her kids. She should be the one to deal with the damage she's done there. And while I don't think she should be working at the hospital right now, she's the only contract character that's still there so even suspension is problematic

Ideally, she should have consequences sufficient to promote growth for the character - because right now she's a ridiculous lying loon who never learns from past experiences and is towing her 3 kids from one disaster to another

Edited December 19, 2015 by Oracle42

[dubbel zout]

The reason for the lie was that given his friends and family Liz would have assumed the same place she'd had before he lost his memory - where there wasn't a lasting place in his life for her

 

Liz was afraid if she told him he was Jason, he'd suddenly get all his memories back. Dumb, but understandable, I guess. Even so, just because he gets his memory back doesn't mean he'll want to have that life again. He wasn't happy about being Action!Man during the Helena-brainwash period, though that might have been due more to the brainwash.

 

Or am I misreading my quote?

[Oracle42]

I don't think that was about his memories. She said if she told the truth he'd belong to Carly/Sonny/Sam but not to her - that there'd never been a lasting place in his life for her and she wanted her time.

He might've rejected that life again, he did last time he lost his memory - at least temporarily - but Liz was less concerned with his memories than his priorities

Edited December 18, 2015 by Oracle42

[dubbel zout]

Liz doesn't know what Jason would have decided, though I get her anxiety that Sam/Sonny/Carly would suck him back into their lives. Though he hasn't shown much interest in them regardless. He's gone to talk to Carly and Sonny, but really, who else is there? Jason never had much of a support system outside of those two.

Edited December 18, 2015 by dubbel zout

[yowsah1]

 He's gone to talk to Carly and Sonny, but really, who else is there? Jason never had much of a support system outside of those two.

 

Well, you know, there's these two psychiatrists that work at General Hospital, they might be able to help.  Yeah,  know, crazy talk, what would a couple of doctors who specialize in treating mental diseases and disorders have to offer a guy suffering from amnesia?  Jason's far better off talking to the local moobster and his moll! [/sarcasm]

[Oracle42]

He's gone to talk to Carly and Sonny, but really, who else is there? Jason never had much of a support system outside of those two.

 

His wife? His mother? Michael? AJ would have been ideal if Sonny hadn't murdered him

[dubbel zout]

I think Sam is too fraught with unknown baggage, plus she's understandably biased against Liz (as are Carly and Sonny, but for some reason they're being somewhat reasonable where that's concerned, at least for now). Sam also doesn't want to seem to pressure Jason. Same for Monica. As for Michael, who knows, since he and Jason haven't interacted for weeks.

 

Shrinks? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Shrinks are for weaklings. 

Edited December 19, 2015 by dubbel zout

[Ambrosefolly]

What, you mean that turning an important legacy character into a psycho loser for mob peen didn't have 'em tuning in by the millions? Why, no one could have dreamed that giving an entire fan base the back of your hand would make them stop watching the show!

Those ratings are completely deserved.

 

Yup. Nic & Liez are finally found out, in the softest, quietest and most private way possible. What a payoff, huh?

The show as a whole is shit and that is why the ratings are tanking. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a bump in the ratings due to Scorpio family hour (which seems the allotted amount time in the next two weeks, total).

 

However, the combination of disrespecting a fanbase large enough that Rebecca Herbst was able to get her job back and I guess not a public enough sound off by Sam (though I think a confrontation doesn't have to be public to be powerful) contributed to it. However, the Valerie/Dante affair being exposed was extremely public, but that didn't bump up ratings either.

 

.Maybe RC didn't get the memo, but neither the Liz fans or haters were looking forward to her being the goat in poor, poor Jasam, because the whole reason he had Liz keep the Jason secret in the most unsympathetic way possible was because he was butt hurt he couldn't do it before when Steve Burton was in the role. I am not sure what Rebecca did to him to want to make Liz come across as unrootable as possible, but I guess it was pretty bad. When Sam went bad during Liason '06-'08 at least she got to be fun. I agree with someone that wrote that Liz's actions over the last 7 months were beneath her and the writers won't even allow to learn anything because it does fit into their plot point writing.

 

While Sam can go to her parent's house with her adult age sisters, Liz has no family to talk to or that can talk some sense into her. Her oldest, who should be a preteen right now without SORASing and older that college age Molly, is the same age as the brother born 3 years after him. Rebecca Budig could have been a excellent Sarah Webber and that guy playing Curtis might have worked as a Thomas Hardy Junior, but they were cast as non connected characters. So Elizabeth has to seek acceptance from the serial killer that kidnapped her son.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[dubbel zout]

However, the Valerie/Dante affair being exposed was extremely public, but that didn't bump up ratings either.

 

I'm not surprised, as that reveal didn't affect nearly as many people as the Jason lie did. The follow through is just as bad, though: Lulu gets revenge on Valerie? Zzzzzz. Who cares? There are no stakes, given how weakly Valerie has been integrated into the canvas.

 

The stakes for Liz's lie should be higher, but once again, we get the lamest possible follow through. 

[Ambrosefolly]

I'm not surprised, as that reveal didn't affect nearly as many people as the Jason lie did. The follow through is just as bad, though: Lulu gets revenge on Valerie? Zzzzzz. Who cares? There are no stakes, given how weakly Valerie has been integrated into the canvas.

 

The stakes for Liz's lie should be higher, but once again, we get the lamest possible follow through. 

 

But what would she have to lose? When she pulled what she did, she actually wasn't violating hospital policy because Jakeson was no longer a patient, it isn't like her kids will hate because they are all in short pants. Lose friends or family? We have never met her mother, Rachel Ames has retired so not really an Audrey, and the show refuses to cast Sarah and Thomas Junior even if they come across good actors. It seems that she is suffering more than Carly did, who helped cover up the murder of her first born's father, never got any jail time and said first born has forgiven her within the year. Liz has lost dumbass Jason, but will never see it like that.

[ulkis]

I'm not surprised, as that reveal didn't affect nearly as many people as the Jason lie did. The follow through is just as bad, though: Lulu gets revenge on Valerie? Zzzzzz. Who cares? There are no stakes, given how weakly Valerie has been integrated into the canvas.

 

I don't think that was the problem. First of all, who was there to witness it? Kiki and Molly. Morgan was on the boat but then he wasn't even in the scene for some reason. Where was Tracy, Laura, Nikolas, Carly? Why weren't all these people (besides Nathan) shocked? Everyone was just like yeah, "meh". All of those above people should have been there to stare death glares at Dante, and be shocked, even if it made them hypocrites. And Dante's reaction most of all was the worst. He just have gotten down on his knees and begged for forgiveness in front of everyone and had Lulu reject him brutally. If they had it public, why not GO for a scene?

 

This stuff writes itself, and they didn't go for it. It's so stupid.

 

whoops, I just realized this was the Liz thread. Sorry!

Edited December 20, 2015 by ulkis

[dubbel zout]

But what would she have to lose? When she pulled what she did, she actually wasn't violating hospital policy because Jakeson was no longer a patient,

It's not about violating hospital policy. Liz lied to Jason and others about knowing who he was. She has Jason to lose (which seems to have happened), and the Qs and Sam should be furious with her. Not that Liz cares all that much about them, but they should get some POV. Monica hasn't even been angry that she didn't know her son was actually alive. She's just slobbering over the crumbs he gives her, as always. I don't expect Tracy to be doing cartwheels, but she should be happy for Monica's sake. Instead, we don't even know if she knows. Michael is allowed some anger, but he's too preoccupied with his giant fetus.

 

I don't need giant public outings and recriminations, as those are usually written really badly, and the wrong people are usually witnesses. And I think they're used way too often to be effective anymore. It becomes tacky to see Liz and Sam go at it at GH. (I blame both women when this happens.) The staff doesn't care about their personal drama.

 

That's what happened at the Halloween party with the Dante reveal. Ninety percent of the people were extras; what do they care if Dante cheated on Lulu with Valerie? Besides, it's a private issue that affects only those people. Should Lucas care that Liz lied about Jason? Maybe on a general "lies are bad" level, but it's nothing to him.

 

This fakakta show. Everyone is still in their own bubbles, so the reveals have no ripple effects, and the botches them anyway.

[Oracle42]

I don't think it matters that Jason wasn't a patient anymore. Liz met him as an amnesiac patient at the hospital, took him home and kept his identity from him because she wanted a relationship with him.

Wouldn't you side-eye a news story with those facts that finished with - Nurse Webber has returned to work

I've never loved Liz's abrupt shift into nursing, I've always wanted to see her do something else

Edited December 21, 2015 by Oracle42

[dubbel zout]

IRL, of course—I'd be horrified and grossed out by the whole thing. But this is a soap, and a badly written one at that. I think it was silly for Liz to suddenly attach herself to Jake Doe and basically force him to live with her, but if it hadn't been her, Carly would have set him up for free at the MetroCourt and barged into his room on a regular basis, interfering in his life as usual. Potato, potahto, IMO. 

 

It's still gross and horrifying, but it's also plot-point city.

[Oracle42]

The writing is hot garbage but unless I get a reset (which I would take in a heartbeat) the writers have to deal with the mess they've made

[KerleyQ]

It's still gross and horrifying, but it's also plot-point city.

 

 

T-shirt! 

[tallyrand]

I was watching some of Liz's scenes from 1997-98 recently.  I was curious to see the beginnings of Liz and her relationships.  Man, the show was better back then. I have many observations:

 

(1) Rebellious Liz was so adorably awkward although I think BH hadn't quite perfected the bitchface and smirk combo as some of her faces were a little awkward. 

(2) Audrey and Elizabeth had a really nice relationship

(3) I love Liz's scenes with Sarah surprisingly

(4) Lucky and Liz had chemistry right off the bat and were so damn cute.  Although Lucky was kind of a dick to her. 

(5) Liz's excitement and the way she shared it with Audrey right before the Valentine's Day dance was so touching knowing what was going to happen. Even though BH was in her early twenties, I think, she played Liz's girlish teenage excitement beautifully. 

(6) Rape scenes were surprisingly brutal, meaningful and BH was really awesome.  I mean stunning really. Even in the later scenes, she more than held her own with TG and JJ.  

(7) There are a lot of Lucky/Luke scenes that are really self-indulgent, long, and boring as a result of Liz's rape. 

(8) I was surprised how most of Liz's scenes in the aftermath were with Bobbie, Sarah and Audrey.  Liz's scenes with all the women, especially Bobbie, were just wonderful.  The scene where Liz had the pelvic exam made me tear up.  All of those scenes were so delicately and beautifully written.  It really sucks Liz was never given a strong mother figure because her scenes with Bobbie and Audrey are so strong.  Whatever happened to Liz and Bobbie's relationship?

 

And that's all for now.  But watching those scenes made me appreciate Elizabeth and BH a lot.  

Edited December 23, 2015 by tallyrand

[peachmangosteen]

I have always meant to watch the beginning of Liz but I never get around to it. I feel like it would probably help me have less rage over her.

 

I like her not giving a care what people think of her.

 

She seems to care very much what people think of her since all she's done since being exposed is whine about how everyone's super mean to her. She, like always, likes to act like a bitch to people while somehow still wanting everyone to feel sorry for her. I can not stand that aspect of her personality. If she's going to feel no guilt over her actions I wish she'd just own it.