X-Men Franchise

[Morrigan2575]

11 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Which is part of the problem. They went out of their way to make Last Stand completely irrelevant... and the same guy is writing it (and directing it this time?!) and it's just... DUDE! Dead in the water! You got it wrong then and I have little hope for you getting it right now!

That's what i don't get. Last Stand pretty much killed the original timeline which is why they went with prequels to reboot the X-Men Franchise.  Why are they (seemingly) just doing a Last Stand redo?  They reset the universe, why not actually try a different plot for Dark Phoenix?  Why not do a 2 part movie?  Pheonix Rising and then Dark Phoenix?  have Part 1 start with Jean saving everyone in space and becoming the Phoenix, have her do heroic things with her growing powers and end Part 1 with Jean slowly losing control to the Hellfire Club.  Then Part 2 does the traditional Dark Phoenix story with Jean going bad, killing a Billion people and ending with suicide/sacrifice.  At least this way they have 2 movies to do the story and can kill Jean off for a time.  At this point Dark Phoenix will either end with Jean's HEA or a cheated death because she'll be back in the next movie (assuming MCU doesn't totally reboot the X-Universe which they probably will)

[mary2013]

I'd be more than happy if they went with the ending used for the Animated series.

[Jeebus Cripes]

On 10/8/2018 at 12:44 AM, Dandesun said:

Which is part of the problem. They went out of their way to make Last Stand completely irrelevant... and the same guy is writing it (and directing it this time?!) and it's just... DUDE! Dead in the water! You got it wrong then and I have little hope for you getting it right now!

Wait... WHAT?! I've had so little interest in this inevitable shitbomb that this escaped my attention entirely. Good lord...

[VCRTracking]

On 10/9/2018 at 3:21 PM, mary2013 said:

I'd be more than happy if they went with the ending used for the Animated series.

I like that change as well. The first Guardians of the Galaxy had a similar ending. Another thing the animated series did I liked was how they adapted the Proteus storyline. Proteus was Moira MacTaggart's mutant son who could control reality and had to possess host bodies. Moira had to keep him isolated in a lab when he was growing up. In the comics he was pretty much an evil monster, remorselessly killing innocent people and had to be destroyed. In the animated series he was more sympathetic; a scared kid who couldn't control his power and was just trying to find his father, Moira's ex-husband who disowned him for being a mutant.  X-Men comics and movies go on about how wrong it is for humanity to fear and hate mutants but then always show the fear part is justified!

Edited January 4, 2019 by VCRTracking

[starri]

I’m on my phone, so I can’t really link right now, but apparently, those promised New Mutants reshoots have not happened and are not scheduled. 

This movie is never being released. 

[Matt K]

I'm sad that they're going with "Oh Noes Jean Grey's powers are out of control" which is incredibly problematic (not to mention Prof X mentally assaulting her).  I feel the best way to do the Phoenix saga is to keep it as Jean Grey is possessed by an alien entity (who's more force of nature than anything else) and then runs into problems when the entity get seduced by the dark side of human nature.  The you can have the ending with Jean fighting for control and getting it long enough for the X-Men to kill her.  Then at least Jean goes out as a hero (and the only reason the X-Men were able to save the day).  You can bring her back at the end (as a gift from the Phoenix entity) or not I guess although I'd prefer the former.

[starri]

Just bury it and salt the earth.

[Anduin]

Well, this is unfortunate. Alexandra Shipp says she didn't get much to do in Dark Phoenix. That's been a real problem with these movies, finding room for the supporting cast. So much focus on Xavier, Magneto, and Wolverine. Until they got Jennifer Lawrence, and pushed her to the moon.

Compare Infinity War. It was pretty packed, but everyone got at least a few moments to shine. I can't remember what the supporting cast did in Apocalypse, though I only saw it once.

She also doesn't want her Storm to have a relationsihip with T'Challa. Interesting. I remember when the characters got married in the comics a few years back. There were a lot of comments about how tokenistic it felt, putting the two most prominent black characters together almost out of nowhere.

[benteen]

It's a disgrace that they can't do more with Storm.  She's an awesome character and deserves to be more prominent in these movies.  Along with Cyclops, she is THE leader of the X-Men, something the movies have never examined.  Hopefully Marvel will be able to do what Singer and company and Fox failed to do with Storm and other female X-Men characters.

Chris Claremont often struggled to give Storm a love interest because she was such a strong character that the love interests never measured up.  Storm doesn't need a love interest.

Edited April 3, 2019 by benteen

[Dandesun]

Storm was often the focus of gods and kings and megalomaniacs. "She is magnificent! She must be my queen!!" And I always rather liked the idea of Ororo just going 'Mm, okay...  you're interesting... FOR NOW.' And then moving the fuck on. I've always liked the CONCEPT of Storm/Forge but it never fully worked in execution.

That being said, I bought a Wolverine/Storm relationship so much more than I ever bought anything between Wolverine and Jean. Storm and Logan had a long running history side by side as teammates and developed a believable relationship over time. Now, do I think they are end-all/be-all? No. (Mainly because I wouldn't wish Logan on anyone long term like that.) But I could totally get why they might be into each other. Meanwhile, Logan barely spent any real time with Jean but was grossly obsessed with her and, over the years, she's been written to have this 'latent, undeniable' attraction to him for absolutely no reason other than to make it seem like he's not actually wrong in his obsession. It is so. fucked. up.

Back to Storm, though... it remains infinitely frustrating that Fox never bothered to focus on her. Storm is fucking awesome and is one of the most recognizable Marvel heroes PERIOD. She has a rich history, awesome powers, is awesome WITHOUT her powers, and is just so cool it's a travesty they've never done a damn thing with her. I have seem commentary elsewhere about her meeting up with T'Challa. Personally, I agreed with the tokenisation of them as a couple back when they married because they completely retconned a deep connection from a one-off side adventure ages ago. Maybe if they had bothered to build it up at all it would have been a different story but instead. 'Storm and Black Panther are getting married!!' '...huh? Do they even know each other?'

Although my favorite idea for Storm meeting the Black Panther crew is to fall in love and run off with Nakia. Truthfully, I'd rather see Storm and Yukio but what do I know?

[benteen]

32 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

That being said, I bought a Wolverine/Storm relationship so much more than I ever bought anything between Wolverine and Jean. Storm and Logan had a long running history side by side as teammates and developed a believable relationship over time. Now, do I think they are end-all/be-all? No. (Mainly because I wouldn't wish Logan on anyone long term like that.) But I could totally get why they might be into each other. Meanwhile, Logan barely spent any real time with Jean but was grossly obsessed with her and, over the years, she's been written to have this 'latent, undeniable' attraction to him for absolutely no reason other than to make it seem like he's not actually wrong in his obsession. It is so. fucked. up.

Back to Storm, though... it remains infinitely frustrating that Fox never bothered to focus on her. Storm is fucking awesome and is one of the most recognizable Marvel heroes PERIOD.

Yeah, I bought Wolverine and Storm too.  There's a deep mutual respect there to go along with that friendship and Logan accepted Storm's leadership without question.  Their partnership and friendship turning to romance was something I never trouble buying.  Don't get me started with Jean's "latent" attraction to Logan.  Chris Claremont's run on X-Men is my absolute favorite but Jean's attraction to Logan was a pure retcon because he was (rightly) pissed off when another writer had Scott abandon his wife and son when Jean returned.  Hell, the first time he addresses Jean, it's telling her and the rest of the X-Men to take a hike and save them all the drama after they announce they're leaving the team.  Logan's attraction to Jean during the original X-Men run was completely one-sided and his "future" with Jean was strictly all in his head.  Claremont then did his retcon story where Jean was leaving the team because of her "latent, undeniable" attraction to a unlikeable jackass she knew for all of ten seconds.  UGH!

Fox completely dropped the ball on Storm, Rogue, Kitty, etc.  The only character they developed was Mystique and they still couldn't develop her as the amazing character she is in the comics.  I have a lot of faith in Marvel to correct this.

Edited April 3, 2019 by benteen

[GHScorpiosRule]

37 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

That being said, I bought a Wolverine/Storm relationship so much more than I ever bought anything between Wolverine and Jean. Storm and Logan had a long running history side by side as teammates and developed a believable relationship over time.

Hell, even the animated series had them as husband and wife in the alternate time line/future where Xavier was killed. Or was it the past? Anyhoo, it was when what'shisface from the future...dammit! Right! Bishop! He thought Gambit was the assassin, but it was fucking Mystique in disguise. When everything was all fixed, in present time, there was a bit of flirty-flirt between Logan and Storm. She even called him on it...

"Could be taken as...flirting."

Then Logan, as Logan does, said something about her knowing him better than that.

And that's my contribution to this discussion.😉

[Dandesun]

8 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yeah, I bought Wolverine and Storm too.  There's a deep mutual respect there to go along with that friendship and Logan accepted Storm's leadership without question.  Their partnership and friendship turning to romance was something I never trouble buying.  Don't get me started with Jean's "latent" attraction to Logan.  Chris Claremont's run on X-Men is my absolute favorite but Jean's attraction to Logan was a pure retcon because he was (rightly) pissed off when another writer had Scott abandon his wife and son when Jean returned.  Logan's attraction to Jean during the original X-Men run was completely one-sided and his "future" with Jean was strictly all in his head.  UGH!

Fox completely dropped the ball on Storm, Rogue, Kitty, etc.  The only character they developed was Mystique and they still couldn't develop her as the amazing character she is in the comics.  I have a lot of faith in Marvel to correct this.

Fox's absolute failure regarding the extremely awesome X-Women will never fail to infuriate me. Nor will what they did to Mystique.

And you're right that Jean's retconned 'irresistable attraction' to Logan was Claremont pitching a fit about Jean's resurrection and Scott running off to see her. Of course, Claremont also wrote Scott falling in love with an exact replica of Jean so I can't say his coping mechanism after Jean/Phoenix's fate on the moon was anything to write home about. Basically, Claremont disagrees with Marvel editorial and decides to have a snit and retcon Logan's one-sided obsession into being something that's TOTALLY OKAY because Jean has always felt 'something' too... despite the fact that she never wavered in her love for Scott. Not to mention, Logan and Jean were nothing more than a forced kissed on her during Inferno and a pity kiss from her during X-Tinction Agenda and the worst part is... we have to see that shit played out in the movies, too. Like because Hugh Jackman is mega hot and charming (the way comics Logan is NOT) his insta-obsession with Jean is totes okay and her various deaths in X2 and X3 are about HIS manpain rather than the man who actually had a relationship with her.

Plus, you have Claremont's idea of Jean as Phoenix and Immortal Logan's passion 'reigniting the world' at the end of time or whatever that has sunk into the hivemind of Marvel for too long so this idea of "Jean + Logan = 4 Eva' is accepted as truth.

Until now, at least, where you have a rebooted franchise with a Jean way too fucking young to get obsessed over by Logan and many current comic writers (some of them women) going 'Hell no' to Jean and Logan. Hell, even saying 'Hell no' to Jean and Scott and actually saying things like 'Jean deserves to stand on her own for awhile, don't you think?'

Anyway, in the movies, I'm less inclined to be rooting for a romance for ANY of the X-characters (since Charles and Erik's passion for each other sucks all the oxygen from the room every damn time) since none of them (other than Charles, Erik, Logan and fucking Mystique) have gotten any character development. And truthfully, I can't even say that Mystique HAS gotten character development other than 'She's Jennifer Laurence so have some more!

I can only hope that Marvel does better but I worry at the same time. Claremont's slow burn years long storylines don't exactly translate well into a two+ hour movie format. I can separate Marvel 616 from MCU and don't expect to see the stories translated perfectly and directly (sometimes this is a good thing) but I do wonder where they might go with the X-Men. Or where they might even start.

[Danny Franks]

12 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Storm was often the focus of gods and kings and megalomaniacs. "She is magnificent! She must be my queen!!" And I always rather liked the idea of Ororo just going 'Mm, okay...  you're interesting... FOR NOW.' And then moving the fuck on. I've always liked the CONCEPT of Storm/Forge but it never fully worked in execution.

That being said, I bought a Wolverine/Storm relationship so much more than I ever bought anything between Wolverine and Jean. Storm and Logan had a long running history side by side as teammates and developed a believable relationship over time. Now, do I think they are end-all/be-all? No. (Mainly because I wouldn't wish Logan on anyone long term like that.) But I could totally get why they might be into each other. Meanwhile, Logan barely spent any real time with Jean but was grossly obsessed with her and, over the years, she's been written to have this 'latent, undeniable' attraction to him for absolutely no reason other than to make it seem like he's not actually wrong in his obsession. It is so. fucked. up.

Back to Storm, though... it remains infinitely frustrating that Fox never bothered to focus on her. Storm is fucking awesome and is one of the most recognizable Marvel heroes PERIOD. She has a rich history, awesome powers, is awesome WITHOUT her powers, and is just so cool it's a travesty they've never done a damn thing with her. I have seem commentary elsewhere about her meeting up with T'Challa. Personally, I agreed with the tokenisation of them as a couple back when they married because they completely retconned a deep connection from a one-off side adventure ages ago. Maybe if they had bothered to build it up at all it would have been a different story but instead. 'Storm and Black Panther are getting married!!' '...huh? Do they even know each other?'

Although my favorite idea for Storm meeting the Black Panther crew is to fall in love and run off with Nakia. Truthfully, I'd rather see Storm and Yukio but what do I know?

That whole thing about Storm marrying Black Panther was lame. It felt like 'well, they're both black and African so... of course they'll pair up.' I don't think many fans liked it at the time, and probably fewer do now. I doubt Claremont ever would have written that storyline, because his obsession with Storm is well known. He would probably have ended up doing what Marv Wolfman did with Donna Troy, and written a creepy, self-insert character to hook her up with.

The Storm character beats I always liked were when she dropped that regal bearing, and just acted like a normal person. So, of course, I loved her interactions with Gambit. From meeting him when she was de-aged and forging that sibling-like friendship that has endured (albeit, with the odd spike of sexual tension) they've always felt like genuine friends when they were in comics together.

The Jean/Wolverine stuff was awful. I never bought that Jean did anything more than pity Logan, knowing he was obsessed with her but didn't have a shot (this was back when he was a 5'3" hairball, of course). But a series of writers who love to insert themselves into their favourite characters have turned him into something completely different (Mike Carey did the same thing with Magneto, turning him into a dark, romantic hero that Rogue just couldn't resist). Having said that, I never liked Jean/Cyclops either, because Cyclops is one of my least favourite characters. It seems like most of the women in Marvel comics deserve better than they get.

I've lost track of Marvel comics, but last I checked there were two Jean Greys running around, one a teen and one an adult, and I don't know if either of them were being thrown at Wolverine so he could "finally get his due" or whatever. It wouldn't surprise me, though.

Anyway, if Marvel does reboot the X-Men universe completely, then I think they'll have a huge job on their hands. Tying it into the larger MCU won't be hard, because they can just talk about mutations starting to emerge, and go from there. But setting up Professor Xavier and the original five X-Men without repeating themselves will be incredibly difficult.

[Matt K]

I will defend that Storm and Black Panther getting married wasn't out of nowhere despite the story line being poorly done. 

They've actually been a couple before.  In Priest's run they got together though it didn't last very long and Priest actually referenced an X-Men comic from the 80's (I believe written by Claremont) showing Storm and T'Challa knowing each other as kids.  

[JessePinkman]

DARK PHOENIX Officially Fox's Final X-MEN Movie; Looks Like NEW MUTANTS Will Get A Theatrical Release

I...can't believe New Mutants is actually coming out. In theaters! Like a REAL MOVIE!

[Dandesun]

13 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

That whole thing about Storm marrying Black Panther was lame. It felt like 'well, they're both black and African so... of course they'll pair up.' I don't think many fans liked it at the time, and probably fewer do now. I doubt Claremont ever would have written that storyline, because his obsession with Storm is well known. He would probably have ended up doing what Marv Wolfman did with Donna Troy, and written a creepy, self-insert character to hook her up with.

The Storm character beats I always liked were when she dropped that regal bearing, and just acted like a normal person. So, of course, I loved her interactions with Gambit. From meeting him when she was de-aged and forging that sibling-like friendship that has endured (albeit, with the odd spike of sexual tension) they've always felt like genuine friends when they were in comics together.

The Jean/Wolverine stuff was awful. I never bought that Jean did anything more than pity Logan, knowing he was obsessed with her but didn't have a shot (this was back when he was a 5'3" hairball, of course). But a series of writers who love to insert themselves into their favourite characters have turned him into something completely different (Mike Carey did the same thing with Magneto, turning him into a dark, romantic hero that Rogue just couldn't resist). Having said that, I never liked Jean/Cyclops either, because Cyclops is one of my least favourite characters. It seems like most of the women in Marvel comics deserve better than they get.

I've lost track of Marvel comics, but last I checked there were two Jean Greys running around, one a teen and one an adult, and I don't know if either of them were being thrown at Wolverine so he could "finally get his due" or whatever. It wouldn't surprise me, though.

Anyway, if Marvel does reboot the X-Men universe completely, then I think they'll have a huge job on their hands. Tying it into the larger MCU won't be hard, because they can just talk about mutations starting to emerge, and go from there. But setting up Professor Xavier and the original five X-Men without repeating themselves will be incredibly difficult.

Storm's friendship with Gambit is one I've always liked, too. He appeals to her thieving side which is how she survived after being orphaned and when they met (with the de-aging and all... ah, comic books) she was a kid so really couldn't go full bore into the 'Untouchable Goddess' thing that some writers really liked to push on her. Storm was never one thing or another which is one of the most interesting things about her. 

There were two Jeans running around very briefly. Teen Jean along with the rest of the original crew brought forward through time via current day Hank McCoy and then actual Jean who came back from the White Hot Room, I guess, but then pushed the Phoenix away to just be herself. The fortunate thing about this was that teen Jean was WAY too young for any Wolverine (and he was about to get killed off anyway) but also when actual Jean came back the only Logan around was 'Old Man Logan' who is from a different timeline. So when he said that she wasn't 'his Jean' she told him she was never HIS ever. Teen Jean went back to their timeline with the rest of the O5 so she's gone.

And now we've got Age of X-Man happening where Age of Apocalypse Nate Grey has somehow combined with Legion to create a Utopia *somewhere else* where everyone's a mutant but there are no such things as personal relationships. It is crazy nuts so far. There's no such thing as romantic love or sex or familial relationships in this alternate whatever so anyone who develops them gets arrested and/or mind-wiped. Bishop, of course, is remembering things differently (and he and Jean hooked up in the AoXM) meanwhile, Scott is back in the regular timeline due to young Cable (yeah, young Cable showed up to murder his elder self because he wouldn't send the O5 back to their timeline and 'fix things') so now the few remaining X-Men -- Scott, Logan (who has returned from death as expected), Alex. Illyana, Danielle, Xi'an, Rahne and Jaime are a piecemeal team that Scott has decided is going to fix everything because they are more than ever in a world that hates and fears them and is really, really happy that most of them are gone.  This whole Age of X-Man thing is SO insane I'm almost desperate to see them try to make this into a movie.

Although, truthfully, I've always wanted to see them attempt to do Inferno. Talk about NUTS. Clones and cosmic forces and demons invading New York City? And MR. SINISTER?! Am I the only one who wants Mr. Sinister to be brought to the big screen in all of his goth/glam glory? Take a doctor from the Victorian era and turn him into a glam rock star from the 70s who's waaaaaay too interested in genetics and the end of the world. Do not try to stifle Mr. Sinister into the 'real world' he's ludicrous. GO FOR IT! I'm sorry that they already used Jeff Goldblum for the Grandmaster. How's John Rhys-Meyers looking these days? He could be a hell of a Mr. Sinister.

I'd like to think that Marvel would go a similar direction they did with Spider-Man. The origin story has been done to death. Just move on. Use different villains. Bring Charles and Magneto back LATER. Charles fucks off in the comics all the time. Focus on the X-Men who aren't Wolverine for a change. There's plenty to go around!

[BetterButter]

New ‘New Mutants’ Trailer Coming in January, Implying the Movie Might Actually Be Released Some Day

[starri]

Did they ever actually do those reshoots, or did they just decide to release what they had?