The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[tv echo]

John Barrowman was a part of this SDCC panel on July 20...

Comic-Con: Syfy's Great Debate Pits Marvel Against DC, 'Star Wars' Against 'Star Trek'
JULY 20, 2017 2:28pm PT by Chris E. Hayner
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/comic-con-inside-syfys-great-debate-1022878

Quote

Unlike many of the big panels at Comic-Con, The Great Debate wasn't about showing off new footage or breaking news about upcoming TV shows and movies. Instead, it was a chance for several fan-favorite artists and creators to talk about the things they're all passionate about, from comic books to their favorite John Williams theme songs.

With moderator John Hodgman (The Daily Show) leading the proceedings, panelists including [Orlando] Jones, Arrow's John Barrowman, Archer's Aisha Tyler, Mythbusters star Adam Savage and All Birds in the Sky author Charlie Jane Anders threw down a no-holds-barred and very funny debate, loaded with jokes, memories and plenty of singing from everyone on stage.

Hodgman set the tone right out of the gate, pitting Marvel and DC's comic book universes against each other, making Arrow star and DC comic writer Barrowman defend Spider-Man and his friends against Tyler's vocal support of Detective Comics. While jokingly admitting that arguing against DC could get him fired, Barrowman spoke about his love of Marvel comics as a kid — and plenty of sexual innuendo.

Unfortunately for Tyler, Barrowman was able to sway the crowd in attendance and secured the win. He also won the John Williams debate after writing his own lyrics to the Star Wars theme. 
*  *  *
One thing just about everyone was able to agree on was that Hollywood may be going too far with reboots of beloved properties. Instead, Savage suggests TV and movie studios re-create things that weren't very good the first time around, like Ice Pirates. That said, Barrowman admitted he'd be in favor of rebooting Firefly if his Torchwood character Captain Jack Harkness could cross over for some some private time with Mal (Nathan Fillion). The event was capped by questions from fans and a surprise appearance by Battlestar Galactica star Aaron Douglas, who appeared simply to make fun of Hodgman.

(video posted by Parks and Cons)

Edited July 22, 2017 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

Quote

He said, “Here’s the thing that I was interested in doing as a writer. I haven’t really seen this on television – I’m sure it’s been done on television, but I haven’t necessarily seen it. I like the idea of you have a couple, they are engaged to be married, they break up and they are still in each other’s lives. In this case they are working together. I hadn’t seen that and the ins and outs of that. I thought that was really interesting. As a writer I am always gravitating towards and attracted to stories I haven’t seen, but still reflect a real life dynamic. There are plenty of people who break up and, for whatever reason (be it kids, work, mutual friends, whatever it is) they have to be in each other’s lives. And that’s hard. That’s an interesting dynamic.”

3

First off, seeing how ex's related after breaking up wasn't even a new concept to Arrow.  Oliver let Laurel hang out for three years.  It was not a good idea, IMO.

But if his goal was to show the difference, sure, great, but MG doesn't seem to understand that the bigger problem with Oliver and Felicity being broken up in season 5 was that they didn't write the ins and outs of how they navigate around their past history.  Oliver finds out she has a boyfriend and it's ages before there's any memory that they'd ever been a couple ever.  It might be an interesting dynamic, but that's not what they wrote.  

[leopardprint]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

This is something I’ve written about frequently on the blog, so I shared my perspective with Marc and said, “My attitude was if you have to break them up, which you know I am not of that opinion that you have to break them up -”

“Oh I know,” Marc interjected. I may have shared my disagreement with him in the past once or twice. ;)

I smiled and continued, “But if you have to break them up, I ran through a list. At the stage they were at, you are really at cheating, killing, lying or stealing. Out of those options, I’m gonna go with the lie.”

 

This is what is so frustrating about Arrow, they had an "organic" conflict right in front of their faces. Felicity would have had very strong opinions about Oliver staying out of William's life as a child whose father left as well as that couples breakup over the decision to have children all the freaking time. It could even be that Oliver does want to have them but feels like he has to sacrifice for whatever dumb Oliver reasons. The lie and the subsequent fallout just assassinated Oliver's character. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

In other words, they had the perfect blueprint to do the kind of story MG said he wanted to do and they ignored it in order to do ...... nothing.  And lost a lot of the audience in the process.

[Lantern7]

Here's the S6 trailer.

Honestly, as much as I can like this show, I can see why some people would bail out. Lots of recap from the finale, and it looks like we're stuck with William. Oliver Queen can't be a dad. He's just so . . . Oliver. Put William on the Waverider and let Mick raise him. "Where do you think the bad man is?" "You." "Yeah, but have you seen Jim Gordon on Gotham? Now c'mere, kiddo, we're gonna meet Mr. Salmon Ladder!!"

[kes0704]

It will always baffle me how the story they say they are writing and the story that actually makes it to the screen end up being so different. 

If you have to do post episode interviews or take to social media to clear up audience confusion about the plot then clearly something is not clicking with the writing. 

Maybe it's a symptom of the "burning through plot" style of writing they seem to love.  It doesn't allow for details or for plot points to breathe before rushing onto the next big twist. How many times did Marc start answers to fan questions on Twitter or Tumblr with the words "I thought it was clear, but....".

I'm still not entirely convinced that 520 would have played out the way it did if the audience hadn't been completely confused about why Oliver and Felicity seemed to have forgotten they were ever engaged.  

Edited July 24, 2017 by kes0704

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, what MG is saying now about 520 and always planning it seems to pretty much directly contradict what they were saying about the state of Olicity before the season.  Back then, "they've already talked over the summer" wasn't a hint that they'd do a flashback episode about it in the spring, but the show runner's way of shutting down questions about how they were going to handle what needed to be addressed still in their relationship.   

[leopardprint]

36 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, what MG is saying now about 520 and always planning it seems to pretty much directly contradict what they were saying about the state of Olicity before the season.  Back then, "they've already talked over the summer" wasn't a hint that they'd do a flashback episode about it in the spring, but the show runner's way of shutting down questions about how they were going to handle what needed to be addressed still in their relationship.   

I just hate the way they talk about the breakup and the nonexistent to me "rebuild". (More like they ordered a prefab house that was delivered on a truck in 522) It's very much Oliver was waiting around for Felicity to get it together or get over it or "understand". It's never like Oliver had to do some serious work on himself (while banging shady reporters who could destroy his life and the lives of his friends) and learn how to be a good partner. It's super gross. I am also getting some inklings from the press that they are turning it to Felicity had a problem with William. ? 

[statsgirl]

I'm taking "rebuild" as code for "we have to keep them apart so that Oliver can date Susan the reporter and we have no clue how to write this".  The actual rebuilding for me started in 5x18 when Oliver realized what it's like to be on the receiving end of someone who has a plan and isn't sharing.  Until this, it was Oliver and Felicity behaving badly for out-of-character reasons.

They did talk in the summer...... and I'm pretty sure that the showrunners had no intention of giving us that scene until they realized how negatively the audience was reacting to s5. 

While a lot of people liked the flashback scene, with the wine and the salmon ladder and the sex, personally I wish they hadn't done it because Felicity went from being cute and flirty with Oliver and telling him she wasn't ready to talk yet to suddenly dating Billy while Oliver was still waiting for that talk.  For me, it was the Felicity equivalent to Oliver's BMD lie.  Rebuild, sure, but don't drag both characters down while you're doing it.

[leopardprint]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm taking "rebuild" as code for "we have to keep them apart so that Oliver can date Susan the reporter and we have no clue how to write this".  The actual rebuilding for me started in 5x18 when Oliver realized what it's like to be on the receiving end of someone who has a plan and isn't sharing.  Until this, it was Oliver and Felicity behaving badly for out-of-character reasons.

They did talk in the summer...... and I'm pretty sure that the showrunners had no intention of giving us that scene until they realized how negatively the audience was reacting to s5. 

While a lot of people liked the flashback scene, with the wine and the salmon ladder and the sex, personally I wish they hadn't done it because Felicity went from being cute and flirty with Oliver and telling him she wasn't ready to talk yet to suddenly dating Billy while Oliver was still waiting for that talk.  For me, it was the Felicity equivalent to Oliver's BMD lie.  Rebuild, sure, but don't drag both characters down while you're doing it.

I think the problem for me is that Oliver was completely passive in the so-called rebuild. He didn't even realize the bs "don't trust myself" until post Chase torturing him and the EP interviews have only focused on what Felicity has to do or understand. They never even really addressed Felicity keeping things from Oliver and how he feels about that. 

520 flashbacks were sweet as a standalone but didn't fit in with the relationship story they were telling in S5. It just felt totally out of sequence. I feel like it would have fit in between 422 and 423 better and I completely agree that it was about bringing Felicity down to his level. I just wish that the EPs would talk more about Oliver's side of it especially because the timing made it seem like he basically abandoned Felicity post killing her boyfriend to go bang Susan because she made him feel better about himself or something. 

Edited July 23, 2017 by leopardprint

[tv echo]

In old interviews, MG has talked about how he learned to love a 'burning through plot' approach from the days when he worked on Eli Stone because that show was always in danger of cancellation. Then he used that approach on his Arrowverse shows because he thought the fast pace kept the shows exciting.

However, I think he's recently begun to re-think that approach. He's expressed regret more than once over how fast they broke up ("devolved") Oliver & Felicity's relationship in S4 because they were so focused on meeting certain plot points.

Then this weekend, during a SDCC press roundtable interview (posted in New Spoilers thread), MG said (in the context of replying to a spoilerish question): "You know, one of the advantages of having a show, knock on wood, that you know is staying on the air, um, you can have a long con, you can make long-term plans. I mean, look at the - like, the William storyline. That storyline started out in Season 2 and it's really only coming into fruition in Season 6. So, that to us is - you know, the thing that excites us as writers, we really like planting seeds that, you know, don't come to fruition for a couple seasons. At the same time, uh, it's again - it's the advantage of having a long-running show. You know, I've worked on shows where you were like always on the verge of cancellation. You had to do everything immediately. And now we get a chance to - we get to take our time with it." 

Edited July 23, 2017 by tv echo

[leopardprint]

I don't know, the William storyline as continued in S5, is the exact opposite of what he's describing because the almost universal reaction was "WTF? Where did all this Myson stuff come from?" They need to maintain a throughline emotionally with the characters so it doesn't seem like Oliver forgot about Myson "the purest part of me" for 23 episodes and suddenly remembers him so they can have a dramatic scene on a boat where Oliver forgets to immobilize the villain with a deadman's switch so he can hug his idiot child. 

Edited July 23, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

I think the fact that they bring in William and everyone is going "Myson?  What? Who?" shows that however much they think they want to write to these longterm storylines, they fail more than they succeed.   Season 5 was still writing to the tent poles.

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I just wish that the EPs would talk more about Oliver's side of it especially because the timing made it seem like he basically abandoned Felicity post killing her boyfriend to go bang Susan because she made him feel better about himself or something. 

Yes.  And MG and WM still don't get it.

Edited July 23, 2017 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

5 hours ago, leopardprint said:

I just wish that the EPs would talk more about Oliver's side of it especially because the timing made it seem like he basically abandoned Felicity post killing her boyfriend to go bang Susan because she made him feel better about himself or something. 

LOL you know this didn't happen right? The first time they had sex was in 512 not 509. It's actually in the narrative that didn't happen.

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

LOL you know this didn't happen right? The first time they had sex was in 512 not 509. It's actually in the narrative that didn't happen.

I'm going to have to go back and watch, but didn't Oliver even say in 5x12 that they haven't had sex yet.

[leopardprint]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

LOL you know this didn't happen right? The first time they had sex was in 512 not 509. It's actually in the narrative that didn't happen.

Eh, it was a flippant (and crude) way of saying he's off dating Susan for while Felicity is suffering through a tragedy he had a hand in. I'm not referring to a specific episode. 

Though all the scenes after Billy dying were very off in 509.

Anyway, I'm more talking about how the EPs and actors talk about S5 Olicity in the recent press. 

Edited July 23, 2017 by leopardprint

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

I'm going to have to go back and watch, but didn't Oliver even say in 5x12 that they haven't had sex yet.

I believe Susan said it... 

1 minute ago, leopardprint said:

Eh, it was a flippant (and crude) way of saying he's off dating Susan for while Felicity is suffering through a tragedy he had a hand on. I'm not referring to a specific episode. 

I believe in the conversation with Susan she basically told Oliver that he was avoiding her a lot. Even after they slept together he still kept avoiding her 

Edited July 23, 2017 by wonderwall

[kes0704]

He was avoiding her so much that he didn't even realise she had been kidnapped.  That and the "my apologies" break up will never not be funny. 

[Mellowyellow]

I still love the bit where Felicity comes running in to help with Susan being kidnapped and Oliver's all "Meh he's not going to kill her. Let's take a moment to talk about your issues. Are you doing anything dodgy?"

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, LeighAn said:

I'm going to have to go back and watch, but didn't Oliver even say in 5x12 that they haven't had sex yet.

At least he had that much good sense.  He's just not that into you when you have to remind the former Playboy of the Western World that you haven't had sex yet.

I think @leopardprint was thinking of those evening spent drinking vodka with Susan conveniently in her lingerie, like a bad 40s private dick movie.

[Velocity23]

Arrow was among the 5 most tweeted about TV shows at SDCC. The only DCTV show in the top 5

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/justice-league-teen-wolf-dylan-obrien-most-tweeted-san-diego-comic-con-1202504297/

TV
Teen Wolf
Supernatural
Arrow
Once Upon A Time
The Walking Dead

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Velocity23 said:

Arrow was among the 5 most tweeted about TV shows at SDCC. The only DCTV show in the top 5

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/justice-league-teen-wolf-dylan-obrien-most-tweeted-san-diego-comic-con-1202504297/

TV
Teen Wolf
Supernatural
Arrow
Once Upon A Time
The Walking Dead

I'm thinking Olicity fans get about 85-90 % of the credit for this haha?

[BkWurm1]

38 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I'm thinking Olicity fans get about 85-90 % of the credit for this haha?

So, nothing new, lol.  ?

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So, nothing new, lol.  ?

This is why we deserve nice things...like weddings...without Karas' or Barry Allens' or Rays' there....(Sara can come if she sits in the back and is really quiet) ?

[tv echo]

Rebecca Yarros is a romance author who's an Arrow fan and Olicity shipper (most of this article consists of animated gifs)...

#IShipIt with Rebecca Yarros
July 25, 2017 
http://www.entangledinromance.com/2017/07/25/ishipit-with-rebecca-yarros/

Quote

Seriously though. Why ship them? Okay, I got this.

10. The chemistry between Stephen Amell and Emily Bett Rickards was so instant and undeniable that from this ONE scene, producers changed Felicity Smoak’s character from a one-episode guest star to series regular. No kidding.
*  *  *
9. Felicity might be the smart, nerdy, IT girl, but she’s got guts and has no problem dishing it back at Oliver when he needs it.
*  *  *
8. But even when they might not see eye-to-eye, she knows that Oliver has her back…
*  *  *
7. That’s because he does. Every time.
*  *  *
6. And she’s got his back, too.
*  *  *
5. Because even when they were “just friends,” they were more.
*  *  
Yeah, serious heart-eyes, folks.

4. Felicity was the first to see him as a hero.
*  *  *
3. Because this moment had me screaming and jumping on my couch. Seriously. I spilled my wine. It would have been tragic, except you know… Olicity.
*  *  *
2. Because the kisses.
*  *  *
1. Because no matter what they go through, they always come back to each other. (You know…like a 2nd chance romance…Shameless Nova plug, I know, I know.)
*  *  *
Even when they’re broken up, they can’t stay apart.
*  *  *
So if you’re not on the S.S. Olicity… jump onboard. Check out the #Olicity hashtags on Twitter and Tumblr and find the most loyal, supportive, awesome fandom out there! =)

Edited July 26, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

First, how is having KC play Black Canary again considered a recasting? Second, I thought the comics corner didn't want Arrow to be a 'soap opera' and yet here's CBR (aka ComicBookResources) advocating a love triangle?...

15 Arrowverse Roles That Desperately Need To Be Recast
07.25.2017  by Nancy Basile
http://www.cbr.com/arrowverse-roles-recast/

Quote

If there’s one thing comic book fans know, it’s that when a series gets tired, a new superhero can give it new life. Arrow, now in its sixth year, is showing signs of wearing down, and handing off their masks to new members of the team would be a great way to re-energize the show. Likewise, the novelty of The Flash is wearing off, and the writers are having to dig deep to keep things interesting. New characters would bring a lot of variables to the writers’ table. Across the board, the Arrowverse would benefit from some casting shake-ups. CBR has 15 ideas of who should be replaced.
*  *  *
13. BLACK CANARY
. . .
Killing Laurel Lance in the fourth season of Arrow was a disastrous move. The Black Canary was a valuable member of Team Arrow, and Laurel’s chemistry with Oliver wonderfully portrayed their history together. Although Dinah Drake became the new Black Canary, her role on the team hasn’t been as important or as powerful as Laurel’s was. Plus, she has almost no relationship with any of the existing team members.

Bringing back actress Katie Cassidy full-time would help raise Arrow out of the rut it has fallen into. Dinah could disappear and the show wouldn’t experience a single hiccup. It would be much more interesting to watch the villain Black Siren turn into a hero, with Oliver’s help. She would also make a wonderful third party in a love triangle, along with Oliver and Felicity.
*  *  *
2. SPEEDY
.  .  .
Thea Queen became the red-hooded Speedy in Season 3. While she was an amazing asset to Team Arrow, her constant struggle with her inner demons held her back. She couldn’t make up her mind who she was, a ruthless killer or a noble defender, which was frustrating to watch. She had less and less to do with Team Arrow, and was M.I.A. for most of Season 5.

Arrow would do well to let Thea die on Lian Yu and introduce Mia Dearden as Speedy. Her appearance would be organic because her origin story includes being rescued from a child prostitution ring by Green Arrow. Arrow needs fresh blood and fresh characters, and Mia would bring both. Her fierceness as a fighter would be a better fit than Thea’s impotent attempts.
*  *  *
1. GREEN ARROW
.  .  .
The biggest reason Arrow is becoming tired is because Oliver’s story is played out. The Lian Yu timeline came full circle, with all the flashbacks filling in the complete story as to how Oliver became the Green Arrow. He’s loved and lost just about every lady on the show, so even his romances feel tired. Stephen Amell has been wonderful as Oliver Queen, but now that his acting career is hotter than ever, he is no doubt considering his next move.

The perfect replacement for Oliver Queen was already introduced in an episode of Legends of Tomorrow. When the Legends visit Star City in 2046, they find the Green Arrow battling a band of criminals. However, the man under the hood is John Diggle’s son, who calls himself Connor. Although he’s called Connor Hawke in the comics, this Connor could take the Arrow series in a whole new, and exciting, direction.

15. HARLEY QUINN
14. MARTIN STEIN
13. BLACK CANARY
12. GUARDIAN
11. THE ATOM
10. KILLER FROST
9. ARTEMIS
8. HUNTRESS
7. RIP HUNTER
6. HAWKGIRL
5. HAWKMAN
4. SUPERGIRL
3. FLASH
2. SPEEDY
1. GREEN ARROW

Edited July 27, 2017 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

*sigh*

[SmallScreenDiva]

That's a dumb article. 

[leopardprint]

33 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Stephen Amell has been wonderful as Oliver Queen, but now that his acting career is hotter than ever, he is no doubt considering his next move.

?

1 MINUTE AGO, SMALLSCREENDIVA SAID:

That's a dumb article. 

It was basically please get rid of the non comic book characters. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[Mellowyellow]

So stupid. I thought of writing why it was stupid then decided it was too stupid for me to bother.

[Velocity23]

So what the article is saying is please get rid of SA, because he supported Olicity and with a new actor we could get the GA/BC romance we deserve! 

[Chaser]

These writers watch the same show KC does.

[Primal Slayer]

55 minutes ago, tv echo said:

First, how is having KC play Black Canary again considered a recasting? Second, I thought the comics corner didn't want Arrow to be a 'soap opera' and yet here's CBR (aka ComicBookResources) advocating a love triangle?...

Did CBR ever say anything against the show being a soap opera?

[wonderwall]

I've come to realize to a lot of comic book fans I've seen:

• The title/name tend to matter more than the characters themselves. 
• Characters who are in the comics don't need to earn anything on the show - it's OK if they're simply given their comic book counterpart's potential
• They like to take the easy way out (reboots/flashpoint to fix issues etc.) regardless of consequences
• They'd rather the show follow canon (whatever they think canon is) than the show be original and pave their own way
• Original characters who earned their time on the show don't matter as much because COMICS
• Romance on the show is icky but in the comics it's fine

Edited July 27, 2017 by wonderwall

[Primal Slayer]

14 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

So what the article is saying is please get rid of SA, because he supported Olicity and with a new actor we could get the GA/BC romance we deserve! 

So what are their reasons for wanting to "recast" Melissa and Grant?

[Velocity23]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

So what are their reasons for wanting to "recast" Melissa and Grant?

I am sure some comic canon accurate reason they can find. Comic fans were really upset that Grant didnt live up to the Barry Allen in the comics. 

[leopardprint]

4 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I've come to realize to a lot of comic book fans I've seen:

• The title/name tend to matter more than the characters themselves. 
• Characters who are in the comics don't need to earn anything on a show - it's OK if they're simply given their comic book counterpart's potential
• They like to take the easy way out (reboots/flashpoint to fix issues etc.) regardless of consequences
• They'd rather the show follow canon (whatever they think canon is) than the show be original and pave their own way
• Original characters who earned their time on the show don't matter as much because COMICS
• Romance on the show is icky but in the comics it's fine

And it's so weird because it's not like there is ONE TRUE COMIC CANON. They constantly reboot and rewrite the characters all the time. Dinah is a comic character  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

[Primal Slayer]

6 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

And it's so weird because it's not like there is ONE TRUE COMIC CANON. They constantly reboot and rewrite the characters all the time. Dinah is a comic character  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

To an extent there is canon. Batmans parents must always die, krypton has to blow up. Lois/Clark will always end up together in the end, Lex Luthor will always turn out to Supes enemy. Tiny things about the characters will change but there is a core canon that they will stick with for their main universe. 

Im cool with changing things up if it is for the better and improves upon something. Arrow just made the mistake of trying to improve one Olivers love life with Felicity while not bothering to improve Laurel. If they put effort into the character then I dont think backlash would be that big and both sides would co-exist a lot better.

[Chaser]

I thought Laurel got her best reviews after Olicity had officially begun?

I think they improved BC. They got Dinah.

[BkWurm1]

32 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

To an extent there is canon. Batmans parents must always die, krypton has to blow up. Lois/Clark will always end up together in the end, Lex Luthor will always turn out to Supes enemy. Tiny things about the characters will change but there is a core canon that they will stick with for their main universe. 

 

Unless he's dating Wonder Woman.  Or when he teams up with him to save the world.

Just saying nothing is really sacred except for whatever someone claims as sacred... until it no longer is.

[Primal Slayer]

32 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Unless he's dating Wonder Woman.  Or when he teams up with him to save the world.

Just saying nothing is really sacred except for whatever someone claims as sacred... until it no longer is.

I said they will always end up together, not that they wouldn't date other people which they did. Ww was never going to marry Supes and live happily ever after in main universe And luthor was still his enemy, teaming up with the bad guyhappens all the time. So there is plenty of scaredness.

[strikera0]

Quote

She (Black Siren) would also make a wonderful third party in a love triangle, along with Oliver and Felicity.

God, these people will still be rooting for some fucked up version of an Oliver/Laurel endgame even after Oliver and Felicity have walked down the aisle and started a family of their own. Absolutely pathetic!

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

I thought Laurel got her best reviews after Olicity had officially begun?

I think they improved BC. They got Dinah.

Yeah..LL got her best reviews when they made her a background character in S4. And the opinion was already improving once she got the mask. I wonder why....................LOL

She was a badly written character but I think all the characters suffered at some point for the bad writing..some managed to overcome that, others couldn't. What the writers couldn't improve was giving KC better chemistry with the rest of the cast.. that can make the character more enjoyable to watch even if the writing isn't good.

[Primal Slayer]

Laurel had nowhere to go but up after s2. She was the highlight of s3 and besides the beginning of s4, was great when she had something to do. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Ww was never going to marry Supes and live happily ever after in main universe

Didn't it take Rebirth to slow that roll? Supes and WW weren't just some alt universe or imaginary story.

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Laurel had nowhere to go but up after s2. She was the highlight of s3 and besides the beginning of s4, was great when she had something to do. 

 

I think we have to agree to disagree about that.  Laurel was a major source of my displeasure in season three.  I was horrified at her insta Canary progress.  I mean, Thea had more training.  The comic sidekick.   Season four Laurel was best when they put her in the background and kept her from doing anything controversial.    

Edited July 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

Didn't it take Rebirth to slow that roll? Supes and WW weren't just some alt universe or imaginary story.

Even without Rebirth they wouldn't have been endgame. I liked Sm/WW pairing but never saw them as anything more then in the moment and knew it was going to end eventually.

NEW52 rid majority of their long histories and set us at 5 years into their journies, they had plenty of time to grow and change. WW started off as slice and dice first ask questions later into more of the WW we knew. 

But Geoff has said that Rebirth is in response to them trying to change things to much and it just not jelling with the audience. 

[wonderwall]

22 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Even without Rebirth they wouldn't have been endgame.

Just out of curiosity... Did that version of the comics where Superman was dating WW have Lois Lane in it? I'm just trying to figure why you think that they wouldn't. Was it in the writing? IDK saying that they wouldn't have isn't really a great argument because that's a claim that's hard to support unless the writers told the audience what direction they were going in or it was blatant in the writing.

Again it's just out of curiosity.

[BkWurm1]

32 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Even without Rebirth they wouldn't have been endgame. I liked Sm/WW pairing but never saw them as anything more then in the moment and knew it was going to end eventually.

NEW52 rid majority of their long histories and set us at 5 years into their journies, they had plenty of time to grow and change. WW started off as slice and dice first ask questions later into more of the WW we knew. 

But Geoff has said that Rebirth is in response to them trying to change things to much and it just not jelling with the audience. 

2

Or what I'd call just another version of canon.  The New 52 changed things to the way they wanted them to be, the implication being that it would have still been going on if the numbers had stayed high enough.  It's not like they wrote the Sm/WW pairing as a way for Clark to fall for Lois.  It wasn't a Ray vs Oliver set up. They took Lois out of Supe's romantic arc altogether.  And I get it, pairing two characters already in the thick of the action would simplify writing.  Personally, I always felt it removed a crucial level of humanity from Superman's character if he's with another super powered character but I get the urge to pair like with like and skip the world building that would include Lois enough for her to be an option as a love interest.   The same urge to have a simple pairing is probably what put GA and BC together originally.  Hey, look, two characters happen to be there in each other's orbit and both are crime fighters, why not?   

But even if rebirth reset things, the New 52 run existed and was canon so chances are the question of Wonder Woman or Lois Lane isn't going to vanish.  It's a viable option from here out.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[ComicFan777]

I always thought that there wasn't really endgame in comics because comics never end.  Their stories never really end.  Relationships are always changing.  Characters don't have happily ever afters.  Even if they get married and have kids, things always change...one of them becomes a villain or is a clone or something is bound to happen to keep the story going or else the relationship would become stale/boring. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Midnight Lullaby]

46 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Laurel had nowhere to go but up after s2. She was the highlight of s3 and besides the beginning of s4, was great when she had something to do. 

I disagree. In season 3 they couldn't even set on one reason for her to become BC. Her training was more in name than anything and the confrontational attitude towards Oliver was a constant source of annoyance for me. He doesn't want you in the team? Well who cares, go start your own. That I would have liked to see.

In season 2 instead there's my favorite arc of hers that is when she goes after Blood.