The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[kismet]

I love Lyla! I want more of her.

But I do see Dig & Tinah chemistry. I don't want it but I can see it. I just hope we don't go love triangle with D/O/T.

[bijoux]

7 hours ago, kismet said:

I love Lyla! I want more of her.

But I do see Dig & Tinah chemistry. I don't want it but I can see it. I just hope we don't go love triangle with D/O/T.

Well, hey, if you want to do an S1 re-tread, why not? It would sorta match the O/L/T triangle.

[LeighAn]

I find the fact that reviewers have gotten the impression that the show is setting up a romantic Diggle and Tinah storyline (given the popular theory that she's destined for Oliver) and that they've had a very ambivalent to negative response to Oliver/Dinah in terms of reaction to their romantic chemistry truly hilarious. Especially if we are to take reviewers as close to the opinion of the casual viewer.

Having said that I don't think the writers actually intended or will follow through on any Diggle Dinah chemistry unless they become a break out ship like Olicity in popularity.

I honestly don't get the impression she's being set up for anyone. She has so far been used as a plot device and added muscle to Team Arrow so far. Pretty much no different then all the newbies. Just that because she's coming later on the season they are cramming more of her in then the others in terms of development.

And I personally feel vindicated that the prevailing sentiment from the reviewers is that all the newbies are sacrificing the core characters and a cohesive plot. From their mouths to the writers ears. Then maybe they'll do a Shonda and cull the heard going into next season.

[tv echo]

Arrow Recap: Season 5 Episode 13 “Spectre of the Gun”
Any Woolsey   Feb. 16, 2017
http://culturess.com/2017/02/16/arrow-recap-season-5-episode-13-spectre-gun/

Quote

As I’ve mentioned before, Arrow has a rather spotty record when it comes to politics. The show, like many superhero stories, hinges on a premise with inherently reactionary, if not outright fascist, underpinnings: an individual (in this case, a rich white man) decides he’s responsible for “saving” his city from crime. He aims to accomplish this mostly by beating people to bloody pulps. And generally speaking, this is okay. While all art is political, we don’t watch all art for its political insight and nuance; sometimes, we just want cool action scenes.
*  *  *
We end with a candlelight vigil. Oliver announces the passage of an ordinance on guns (what it does exactly isn’t clear, though he assures Pollard that it won’t infringe on gun owners and sellers’ freedom) before launching into a speech about being brave and making hard choices. If the resolution seems disappointingly conservative, declining to take a firm stance, it feels fitting; this wouldn’t be Arrow without a little cynicism.

Ultimately, however imprecise it is as an ideological statement, “Spectre of the Gun” succeeds as a story. It manages to explore a thorny issue while staying true to its characters, treating them not as mouthpieces for ideas but as people whose perspectives are rooted in experiences.

Edited February 17, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow Season 5 Episode 13 – “Spectre of the Gun” Review
16th February 2017 Kevin Perreau 
http://www.filmoria.co.uk/arrow-season-5-episode-13-spectre-of-the-gun-review/

Quote

The episode was bold enough to address gun violence, but not bold enough to pick a side. Merely using the characters to drive the arguments, Spectre of the Gun manages to perfectly use the character’s personalities on each side. An episode with no real Arrow action, but solely focused on Oliver’s mayoral duties instead. After a mass shooting in city hall, killing seven unknown people and injuring Adrian, debates on gun control soon arises.

[tv echo]

Agents of GEEK Podcast Episode 61
Craig Wack & Tatiana Torres  02/16/2017
http://agentsofgeekpodcast.com/wordpress/

-- Craig said that 513 was "a very special episode" of Arrow. He thought it felt a "little off" and "weird." He noted that the Berlanti shows take place in fictional worlds and having an episode take place in "a very real world" took him aback. Tatiana would prefer that the show stayed in the "fake world," considering the state of the real world makes her want the escapism.  She would prefer that any parallels that are done on the show be more "crafty". 

-- Craig said that Felicity was "the avatar of the audience, who's sick of the noise back and forth." But he also appreciated Curtis' position that we need to have a conversation and reach a compromise. Tatiana noted that people "don't even know what compromise is any more."

-- Craig noted that Arrow has a "very casual relationship with violence, particularly with gun violence," pointing out that just about every other week, "mass dudes with automatic weapons and body armor... stage some sort of attack on a public gathering in Star City." 

-- Craig said it felt "tone deaf" to have this guy shoot and kill 7 people, which normally would be a tragedy, but on this show, we've seen masked guys with guns shooting up stuff "way too much" in the past couple of years, so for this to happen is just like "Tuesday." Tatiana noted that every previous Mayor and D.A. has been killed, and Craig noted that Felicity was just shot and paralyzed last year.

-- Tatiana reiterated that it was a very important debate to have, but she didn't think that a show where people are shooting each other every week is the place to have it. She noted that Oliver just killed Malone recently. Craig noted that both Diggle & Wild Dog carry and use guns every week. Tatiana thought that Agents of SHIELD "might be able to pull this off because they use icers." Craig thought that even Supergirl might be better able to pull it off because Alex doesn't use a gun with bullets any more, but instead uses a "little laser gun that she stole from that planet across the galaxy." So Supergirl has distanced themselves from guns and bullets.  But Arrow is supposed to be grounded in reality.

-- However, Craig did think that it was a good way to handle Wild Dog. Tatiana now felt more "connected" to Wild Dog after seeing his back story.

-- Craig mentioned that we got more of Felicity hacking and got a Prometheus "name drop" and even Thea was back.  Tatiana loved that Thea "hates stupid, lying fake reporter." Craig loved Thea's "throwing up in the mouth" line.

-- In summary, Craig thought that this episode had some good moments, but it also had problems. However, he appreciated the effort and thought it was a "brave" thing for MG to do.

Edited February 17, 2017 by tv echo

[Chaser]

Given the response to Reporter, if she turns out to be "good" I'm looking forward to the reviewer reactions. I have a feeling they would be quite entertaining.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Chaser

[LeighAn]

In general I think the reviewers have been pretty inline with this forum this season except not as strongly. 

[kismet]

13 hours ago, bijoux said:

Well, hey, if youwritingo do an S1 re-tread, why not? It would sorta match the O/L/T triangle.

Could see a retread possible. They just suck so much at writing triangles, I dread IT. Especially since their writing has dropped more this season.

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, LeighAn said:

In general I think the reviewers have been pretty inline with this forum this season except not as strongly. 

Just a reminder, the reviews that TvEcho so kindly brings us are not all of the reviews or even always the prevailing opinion, but the reviews she's found to be worth following each week or at least worth noting that week.  I do feel like there seems to be more reviewers coming around to a similar stance as the season goes on but early on it seemed like a lot were gushing.  

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, kismet said:

Could see a retread possible. They just suck so much at writing triangles, I dread IT. Especially since their writing has dropped more this season.

I was being completely facetious. I hate triangles in general.

[tv echo]

Why Didn't Arrow's Felicity Take a Stand? Too Soon for Election Horror? Five-0 Mulls 4-Way? And More Qs!
Vlada Gelman, Michael Ausiello, Matt Webb Mitovich, Kimberly Roots, Dave Nemetz, Andy Swift, Ryan Schwartz and Charlie Mason  February 17, 2017
http://tvline.com/2017/02/17/arrow-gun-control-episode-felicity-tv-questions-answers/

Quote

We’ve got questions, and you’ve (maybe) got answers! With another week of TV gone by, we’re lobbing queries left and right about shows including Homeland, Arrow, Nashville and Scandal!
*  *  *
14 | Of all the Team Arrow members to be (repeatedly) silencing the lair’s gun control debate, why Felicity, an actual, sorta-paralyzed victim of gun violence?

Edited February 18, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow and the revolving door of team members this season
by Leah Smith  Feb. 17, 2017
http://fansided.com/2017/02/17/arrow-season-5-revolving-door-of-team-members/

Quote

This season on Arrow, the team has gone through more roster changes in the last 13 episodes than in the previous four seasons — to the point where no one even seemed to notice that Rory was gone during Wednesday’s episode.

For the first four seasons of Arrow, the team stayed remarkably constant. There was the big three of Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity, who were joined by either one of the Lance sisters as Black Canary and Roy or Thea as Speedy/Arsenal/Red Arrow.
*  *  *
She seems to have not informed the rest of the team, because during episode 13, the other Team Arrow members seemingly have no reaction to Rory never showing up for work. Granted, they could have been filled in off screen. But given how powerful Ragman was, it seems weird that his absence was never addressed.
*  *  *
Could the series be setting up a situation where Felicity leaves the team to go work with Helix? If it were to happen, this would be the season to do it. Curtis can pick up the tech slack, and Felicity’s exit would prove that other than Oliver, everyone else can be replaced.

The problem is that is not a good thing. Arrow is at its best when the original Team Arrow is working together. If Dinah, Curtis and Rene actually stick around so the audience can get to know them, a Felicity exit could work.

But right now, especially after Ragman left without anyone noticing, Arrow needs to keep its original trio together.

Edited February 18, 2017 by tv echo

[bijoux]

TVLine's Quote of the week.

Quote

"People talk, Ollie. And some people… vomit a little.”

https://tvline.com/gallery/scandal-twerking-best-tv-quotes/#!20/undefined/

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

TVLine's Quote of the week.

https://tvline.com/gallery/scandal-twerking-best-tv-quotes/#!20/undefined/

I don't know how they write a line like that and still expect me to buy that Susan is good and will ultimately be struck by magic penis syndrome. I'm not saying it won't happen but despite Wendy (over)selling that angle it's not how they are writing it.

[kismet]

They are trying to let us know that they hear our responses and reception to Susan. And well they don't care. They are going to write the story they want, no holding back our hair as we vomit on their crappy stories. They know about us and frankly they don't care in their words - SO THERE :)

[Velocity23]

[tv echo]

This is an interesting read (posting here for the Arrow mentions)...

Letter to an Unknown Woman: From Lisa Berndle to Rebecca Bunch
Ciara Wardlow   Feb. 16, 2017
https://filmschoolrejects.com/letter-to-an-unknown-woman-from-lisa-berndle-to-rebecca-bunch-25216ba503d2#.2pwyug6dy

Quote

Once upon a time, women were the target movie-going audience. As I wrote last week, this actually allowed for a surprising number of female creatives behind the camera in the nascent days of the film industry, only to be flushed out over the course of a few short years once the film industry demonstrated both extreme profitability and staying power. However, women maintained their dominance both on screen — as the highest paid, highest billed, and most influential performers of their time — and as the target audience for decades. Only in the 1950s with the discovery of the (male) teenage market did the scales start to shift, culminating in a total reversal that had completed by the 1970s. The male-oriented, male-dominated movie paradigm is not the one that Hollywood was founded on or that the studio system prospered with. It can be almost hard to imagine as a modern film consumer, which only goes to demonstrate that the latter paradigm is the one that still has a hold today, even if it is perhaps loosening a little and subject to ever-increasing resistance.

However, if we go back before this paradigm shift we will encounter a genre that inspired irreverence even from contemporary critics and yet still lingers as a subject of considerable scholastic debate to this day: the woman’s film. A genre either closely linked to melodrama or a subcategory within it (depending on who you ask), women’s films revolved around female characters and were geared specifically towards female audiences.
*  *  *
Basically, women’s films were marketed and sold as the female equivalent of the male adventure film (what British critic Raymond Durgnat used to refer to as “male weepies”). Both kinds of movies reveal a kind of self-pitying mindset in their intended audiences — the male adventure film by presenting an escapist fantasy of excitement and achievement that is unreachable and avoids any resemblance to the daily life of the everyman (e.g. the Western), and the woman’s film by presenting a female martyr for female audiences to identify with. As Molly Haskell describes in From Reverence to Rape: The Treatment of Women in the Movies, they are, at their most basic level, “soft-core emotional porn for the frustrated housewife.”
*  *  *
An important concept in feminist theory which traces back to Simone de Beauvoir is that of women seeking some of the power of masculinity through emulating, loving, and being loved by a man, but in doing so destroying her own identity (Film scholar Lucy Fischer extensively connects this concept to Lisa Berndle in the essay “Seduced and Abandoned: Recollection and Romance in Letter from an Unknown Woman.”)

Now, one of these is an unfortunate but undeniably real, relatable, and pretty much unavoidable part of being human. The other is — and I’m going to use the technical term here — just icky. Lisa Berndle’s modern equivalents in the first sense — women who are notably, lastingly, and proactively enamored with, but overlooked or flat-out ignored by, specific men — have little else in common with her. They are ambitious, educated, and career-oriented; often as accomplished in their professional lives as they are unsuccessful in their personal lives. They also are now almost exclusively secondary characters: Molly Hooper in Sherlock. Martha Jones in Doctor Who. Felicity Smoak as characterized in the first two seasons of Arrow (before she got, in the immortal words of TV Tropes, Promoted to Love Interest, which coincidentally destroyed her character, as fully and eloquently laid out by Meredith Borders in an article for Birth.Movies.Death.).

Interestingly, in two out of these three cases the objects of these characters’ affections also fit a particular trend in woman’s films, as noted by Tania Modleski in the Cinema Journal article “Time and Desire in the Woman’s Film”:

“It is paradoxically not the virile, masculinized male, the so-called "man's man," who elicits woman's desire in many of these films, but the feminine man: the attractive, cosmopolitan type… or the well-bred, charming foreigner.”

“Attractive, cosmopolitan type” is pretty much the trademark of Benedict Cumberbatch’s Sherlock Holmes, and you don’t get any more foreign or well-bred than an alien called a Time Lord — the charming part is a bit more hit-or-miss. On the other hand, Oliver Queen is about as much of a “man’s man” as one is likely to find, but two out of three ain’t bad.
*  *  *
However, something that is antifeminist and incredibly problematic is the second type of unknown woman, also represented by Lisa Berndle: the woman unknown to herself, who has become, in the words of de Beauvoir, “another incarnation of her loved one, his reflection, his double… she lets her own world collapse in contingence, for she really lives in his.” The one word where the particular trend I am going to discuss differs from de Beauvoir’s quote is the word “lets,” and that is incredibly important. Because “lets” implies some agency at some stage. The woman in question makes a choice, and even if it’s a choice between multiple terrible options, it’s still something.

The modern day equivalent of Lisa Berndle in this second sense doesn’t get to make a choice, because she’s dead. She’s not Molly Hooper from Sherlock, she’s Mary Watson. Not Felicity Smoak from Arrow, but Shado. She is unknown to herself because she no longer has a self. She is literally reduced to “another incarnation of her loved one,” because she only exists in his head, as a ghost.
*  *  *
The problem with this trend is not that it involves women dying. It’s that it involves women dying so that they can be reduced to one-dimensional characters in a “justifiable” way, so they can be stripped of their agency but still kept around....

Edited February 20, 2017 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

I just read the article linked in the article (about how being promoted to love interest "ruined" Felicity) and now I'm ragey.

[bijoux]

I'm not ragey, but I am rolling my eyes mightily.

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I just read the article linked in the article (about how being promoted to love interest "ruined" Felicity) and now I'm ragey.

That article was a load of crap. When in S3 was Felicity a scorned woman?

Yeah, OK I'll go back to the other Arrow show I was watching 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[way2interested]

Just now, lemotomato said:

I just read the article linked in the article (about how being promoted to love interest "ruined" Felicity) and now I'm ragey.

Just go back and read the old TVLine interview again, it made me feel better.

[lemotomato]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That article was a load of crap. When in S3 was Felicity a scorned woman?

Yeah, OK I'll go back to the other Arrow show I was watching 

I'm sure the fact that she was a BC/GA fan didn't bias her against Felicity at all. From the article:

Quote

Because of course Dinah Laurel Lance is Oliver's destiny, 

 

Quote

Somewhere between the Season Two finale and the Season Three premiere, Felicity became Oliver's love interest. 

She's so transparent.

8 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Just go back and read the old TVLine interview again, it made me feel better.

You're totally right. It made me feel better too.

Edited February 20, 2017 by lemotomato

[kismet]

Only skimmed the article, stopped when I got the DLL is OQ's destiny part.

But I will say FS being promoted to LI did coincide IMO with a drop in her as her own character. S3 her plot revolved around RP. S4 was about her relationship. S5 they only bothered to tell us who she was banging and that she was unemployed. So I do see some merit in people saying that once FS became a LI, the show began to fail the character. Because with a few exceptions, there have been more failures than credits to FS's character since she became a LI. She has become more prominent but the substance of her character is not where I think it could be, if they focused more on her and less on who she is sleeping with.

[lemotomato]

6 minutes ago, kismet said:

Only skimmed the article, stopped when I got the DLL is OQ's destiny part.

But I will say FS being promoted to LI did coincide IMO with a drop in her as her own character. S3 her plot revolved around RP. S4 was about her relationship. S5 they only bothered to tell us who she was banging and that she was unemployed. So I do see some merit in people saying that once FS became a LI, the show began to fail the character. Because with a few exceptions, there have been more failures than credits to FS's character since she became a LI. She has become more prominent but the substance of her character is not where I think it could be, if they focused more on her and less on who she is sleeping with.

What focus did Felicity get in seasons 1-2? And actually, she was potential love interest since the start of season 2, so I guess her "drop in her own character" should have started then.

Edited February 20, 2017 by lemotomato

[Chaser]

It wouldn't matter if the show focused 95% on Felicity as an individual and 5% on her romantic relationship. Clearly, the fans will only focus on the 5% and dismiss the 95%.

Look at S5. Her semi-BF was nothing. We got zero development of their romantic relationship, barely any screentime. He was just a roadblock for Olicity and another straw to break to push Felicity towards her dark arc. But some are acting like Felicity spent all of 5A sleeping with him instead of you know doing things like putting together this new Team. He was literally introduced to die so she can be propelled in a new direction. How come when that happens for the Male Lead its an actual storyline but when the roles are reversed the Female Lead is just banging people?

I really do get that S3 and S4 featured less than satisfactory storylines for Felicity, but she did more than just sleep with a couple of guys. She kind of saved the day a few times, make some big moves in her professional life and explored some of her family dynamics.

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

Only skimmed the article, stopped when I got the DLL is OQ's destiny part.

But I will say FS being promoted to LI did coincide IMO with a drop in her as her own character. S3 her plot revolved around RP. S4 was about her relationship. S5 they only bothered to tell us who she was banging and that she was unemployed. So I do see some merit in people saying that once FS became a LI, the show began to fail the character. Because with a few exceptions, there have been more failures than credits to FS's character since she became a LI. She has become more prominent but the substance of her character is not where I think it could be, if they focused more on her and less on who she is sleeping with.

Before season 3, I loved Felicity. But seasons 3 and 4 ruined her for me. At this point I doubt I'll ever like her again.

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I really do get that S3 and S4 featured less than satisfactory storylines for Felicity, but she did more than just sleep with a couple of guys. She kind of saved the day a few times, make some big moves in her professional life and explored some of her family dynamics.

Yeah, tbh, I liked a bunch of the stuff for her in s3 and s4. It's just with the high highs/good came the low lows/bad (like s3 and s4 in general). Some people I feel just focus on one side or the other instead of acknowledging both sides. Not to say that one has to, but I like giving credit to things I at least like.

Edited February 20, 2017 by way2interested

[tangerine95]

For me seasons 3 and 4 made me like Felicity even more tbh.I was glad that we got to find out more about her and she finally got episodes that focused more on her than she ever did in seasons 1 or 2. My issues with Felicity's storylines usually aren't about her behaviour or character, they're mostly about her arcs not being explored enough or being rushed or her being used to make unpopular characters the show wants to push liked. I don't think her story focused on being a LI nearly as much as people say, I feel like because olicity gets so much attention people forget other stuff happens too. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by tangerine95

[theOAfc]

10 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Before season 3, I loved Felicity. But seasons 3 and 4 ruined her for me. At this point I doubt I'll ever like her again.

I feel you. Im like this about Oliver. He is ruined almost for good.

[statsgirl]

Seasons 3 - 5 ruined Oliver for me. Felicity was just hanging on for the ride, trying not to fall off.

The downside of the internet is that articles like that one, which should be left as an undergrad paper in a film course, get put out.  Is there anyone today who thinks Letter From An Unknown Woman was actually a good movie rather than an example of the male patriarchy in the film industry at the time?

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

The modern day equivalent of Lisa Berndle in this second sense doesn’t get to make a choice, because she’s dead. She’s not Molly Hooper from Sherlock, she’s Mary Watson. Not Felicity Smoak from Arrow, but Shado. She is unknown to herself because she no longer has a self. She is literally reduced to “another incarnation of her loved one,” because she only exists in his head, as a ghost.

Interesting that she used Shado, who was a plot device in terms of Oliver's great love and pretty much irrelevant to  his love life today (she was better at teaching him to fight), as the doomed fantasy love object instead of Laurel. I guess she wrote the piece without see Second Chances.

ETA:

Quote

My issues with Felicity's storylines usually aren't about her behaviour or character, they're mostly about her arcs not being explored enough or being rushed or her being used to make unpopular characters the show wants to push liked.

There were some good parts of her role in PT in season 3 but I hated everything about her love life in that season.  Season 4 I thought was a really strong season for her, working with TA even though Oliver had decided for her that they were quitting, fighting back against being told to fire a bunch of PT employees, and the strength with which she dealt with being paralyzed.  Then William got taken and everything about the show, including Felicity's strength, went into the garbage pile.

Edited February 20, 2017 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

I feel you. Im like this about Oliver. He is ruined almost for good.

I have a tiny bit of fondness for him left over from S1, S2, and even early S3, when he was my third-fave character ever on tv, but it's only visible with an electron microscope. He's SO DUMB, SO SELF-CENTERED, and often SO WEIRD now. 

[tangerine95]

28 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

There were some good parts of her role in PT in season 3 but I hated everything about her love life in that season.  Season 4 I thought was a really strong season for her, working with TA even though Oliver had decided for her that they were quitting, fighting back against being told to fire a bunch of PT employees, and the strength with which she dealt with being paralyzed.  Then William got taken and everything about the show, including Felicity's strength, went into the garbage pile.

I liked that she wasn't waiting around for Oliver in season 3 and that she wasn't going to let him drag her down with him even tho Ray was an awful way to expore that. I think I would have liked that storyline more if Ray didn't suck so much and if the show wasn't so obviously desperate to sell the ATOM spinoff by using Felicity. 

In season 4 I liked her storylines, I just wished they picked one to expore deeper instead of throwing a bunch of stuff at her and resolving it in a few episodes. But when they let her have focus like in 4. 11 or 4. 06, I thought it was great. Baby mama drama hurt Oliver as a character for me, not really Felicity. I thought she acted pretty great in those circumstances compared to everyone else basically. I just hated that she got stuck in that horrible storyline. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by tangerine95

[theOAfc]

30 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I have a tiny bit of fondness for him left over from S1, S2, and even early S3, when he was my third-fave character ever on tv, but it's only visible with an electron microscope. He's SO DUMB, SO SELF-CENTERED, and often SO WEIRD now. 

I find it amusing that the audience has zero issues with the lead character being written like a dumb plot device that makes it all about his manpain, but so easily jumps on the anti female character trend the moment she is more than what they expect her to be. 

Its interesting because tv nowadays has embraced the idead that a female character is strong mainly when she is acting more like the standard badass male character. Stoic,brooding,masculine(fighter). 

Its also interesting that when a guy cries on tv,people jump to say how cute it is and how he is a human being with emotions. When a female character cries she is most of the time whiny,weak or irritating. 

Its also interesting how viewers of shows like Arrow will rather embrace stereotypical one dimensional characters than characters written as actual human beings.

Example 1: If oliver values his romantic relationship and talks softer or at least not like a stoic robotic brooding one dimension character all the time,viewers get mad because they just want him to be the stereotypical brooding "badass" male.(how many people were calling him p@@ssy for simply not killing the villains anymore?)

Example 2: If felicity is allowed to show emotions and stand up to the lead instead of being the stereotypical nerdy female character that makes the joke of the week,has a secret crush on the lead,always followes his lead and has zero layers,viewers get mad because they really want her to be a one dimensional character instead of a human being. 

Question: Will viewers still like Dinah ,if she starts crying over certain conflicts with other characters? In other words,will she be deemed whiny if she spends a great ammount of time being dramatic? AKA an actual human being apart from the typical "badass" stereotypical character? 

Who is to blame here? The awful writing that fails to present characters with layers the moment it tries to make them more than the one dimensional stereotypical TV character or the fans who seem to easily embrace mediocre tv(cause arrow was always mediocre lets admit) and get mad the moment it tries(empasis on tries) to be something more? 

Probably both.

I guess what im trying to say is that many of those who watch Arrow ,wont expect from the show to try and present the characters as more than a bunch of one dimensional characters with some cool lines to deliver.  They know it's mediocre tv and dont want anything more from it than what makes it slightly enjoyable,which is stunts and a bunch of one dimensional characters saying the cool line of the week. They even get mad when it tries to be something more and thats partly due to the awful tv standards nowadays but also the fact that the show simply cant give more than that.

I do believe that your average Arrow viewer isnt watching a show like This is us,which spends a great time writing characters as human beings. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by theOAfc

[lemotomato]

50 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Before season 3, I loved Felicity. But seasons 3 and 4 ruined her for me. At this point I doubt I'll ever like her again.

I'm making a list of awesome things about Felicity for the twitter trend on Wednesday, and half the list is stuff from seasons 3-4. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

[dtissagirl]

17 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Baby mama drama hurt Oliver as a character for me, not really Felicity. I thought she acted pretty great in those circumstances compared to everyone else basically. I just hated that she got stuck in that horrible storyline. 

Agreed. Felicity was the classiest of all acts ever re: the baby mama drama. Hell, she was saintly. I would have burned a dude's entire life down to the ground and then given him a vasectomy with my own bare hands if I were engaged to the guy and he hid a kid from me.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Agreed. Felicity was the classiest of all acts ever re: the baby mama drama. Hell, she was saintly. I would have burned a dude's entire life down to the ground and then given him a vasectomy with my own bare hands if I were engaged to the guy and he hid a kid from me.

Yep. Especially since she had NO ONE on her side during it and never even got an apology. And then everyone else just left at the end of S4 and she could have easily done the same but didn't. 

[Proteus]

11 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I'm making a list of awesome things about Felicity for the twitter trend on Wednesday, and half the list is stuff from seasons 3-4. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Yup. Those seasons are what made Felicity one of my least liked characters.

 

53 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

I feel you. Im like this about Oliver. He is ruined almost for good.

Yeah. That's where I'm at with Felicity. 

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Proteus said:

Yeah. That's where I'm at with Felicity. 

I've always been curious about this mindset... What about Felicity in the last 2 seasons ruined her for you?

[Bort]

Hey guys, further dissection of Felicity needs to head to her character thread. Let's stick to media here, please.

[statsgirl]

29 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

I find it amusing that the audience has zero issues with the lead character being written like a dumb plot device that makes it all about his manpain, but so easily jumps on the anti female character trend the moment she is more than what they expect her to be. 

Its interesting because tv nowadays has deemed a female character strong only when she is acting more like the standard badass male character. Stoic,brooding,masculine(fighter). 

Its also interesting that when a guy cries on tv,people jump to say how cute it is and how he is a human being with emotions. When a female character cries she is most of the time whiny,weak or irritating. 

Characters are rewarded for acting like the opposite gender (e.g. tough woman, sensitive man).  Only male characters are rewarded for acting like their own gender.  This is true in real life too, I remember the 80s when a woman in business had to wear a 3 piece suit to look like a man, but with a skirt or she wasn't feminine.  (Those vests looked terrible on anyone with breasts.)

Dinah will probably  be tough, stoic, emotional only about her dead love (see discussion above about dead lovers).  She'll essentially be a female version of a male character, or a straight Nyssa. The people who are excited to have her on the show aren't going to want to see someone anywhere near the stereotypical female.

[Proteus]

3 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I've always been curious about this mindset... What about Felicity in the last 2 seasons ruined her for you?

It's been a lot of things. For one I didn't like in season 3 how they went about the Ray/Felicity/Oliver mess. It felt like they wanted to turn the audience against Oliver and rub Felicity having a new relationship in his face just because he didn't reciprocate her feelings at first. The more the show pushed the bad Oliver angle to prop Ray and Felicity the more it made me turn against them.

Felicitys constant crossovers to Flash season 1 made me grow tired of her. Flash has a team of scientists yet Felicty always came on and was presented as better than them all.

I didn't like Felicitys attitude towards Oliver in season 3 when he decided he had to work with Merlin for the better good.

Then season 4 and the kid story happened. Once again they tried to make Oliver the bad guy. When a show so blatantly tries to turn me against one character to prop another, it has the opposite effect for me.

The wheel chair scene of walking out on him was the last straw for me. It was so over the top bad.

[theOAfc]

6 minutes ago, Proteus said:

It's been a lot of things. For one I didn't like in season 3 how they went about the Ray/Felicity/Oliver mess. It felt like they wanted to turn the audience against Oliver and rub Felicity having a new relationship in his face just because he didn't reciprocate her feelings at first. The more the show pushed the bad Oliver angle to prop Ray and Felicity the more it made me turn against them.

Felicitys constant crossovers to Flash season 1 made me grow tired of her. Flash has a team of scientists yet Felicty always came on and was presented as better than them all.

I didn't like Felicitys attitude towards Oliver in season 3 when he decided he had to work with Merlin for the better good.

Then season 4 and the kid story happened. Once again they tried to make Oliver the bad guy. When a show so blatantly tries to turn me against one character to prop another, it has the opposite effect for me.

The wheel chair scene of walking out on him was the last straw for me. It was so over the top bad.

Im pretty sure the script tried to make Oliver look like the poor guy instead of the bad guy in all those cases you described. Instead, it made him look like the dumb guy. He still got the "poor Ollie" treatment though by both script and fans.

BTW im gonna stop here cause i realise its the wrong thread. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by theOAfc

[statsgirl]

Taking it to the Relationship Thread because it's really about how they are written in terms of their relationshp rather than how she is written on her own.

[Belinea]

1 hour ago, theOAfc said:

Will viewers still like Dinah ,if she starts crying over certain conflicts with other characters? In other words,will she be deemed whiny if she spends a great ammount of time being dramatic? AKA an actual human being apart from the typical "badass" stereotypical character? 

No, because she is BC and she is a woman not afraid of anything not even her own emotions.

[statsgirl]

I don't think this has been posted yet.  Apologies if it has:

Arrow: Where Has Olicity Gone?

 Lissete Lanuza Sáenz

Quote

Watching Arrow this year has been a study in contradictions. For one, I want the show I love and have followed for five years to do well.

For another, the show has drifted so far away from what it used to be, what I fell in love with, that at times, I just want it all to burst into flames so I can at least get the satisfaction of being present for the explosion.

But why? What has the show done so badly in Season 5 that they’ve taken me through the five stages of grief and left me in my current state of acceptance and shade?

I probably shouldn’t have posed that rhetorical question. That would take me years to answer.

For all the things they’ve failed, though, they haven’t failed anything as badly as Olicity, so that’s what I’m going to focus on: The complete erasure of a ship that, previously, was one of the few things you could always count on while watching Arrow.

What happened? That’s an easier question to answer than why, at least on the surface.

The answer is simple: The show shifted gears. They can deny it all they want to, but Arrow Season 5 is clearly a show playing to a different audience than Seasons 1-4.

------

Maybe it’s because after the backlash the show received for killing Laurel Lance, they felt like they had to do something to appeal to the comic book fan base. Maybe it’s some behind the scenes drama we’re not privy to, or who knows, perhaps the writers were all kidnapped by those Aliens from the crossover and have been replaced by pod people.

Either way, their target audience has changed.

The issue with this, of course, is that switching the target audience in Season 5 is not just problematic in its implementation; it’s frankly disrespectful to the people who have supported the show all the way to Season 5.

We were, after all, promised a journey. That’s why we signed up.

And, contrary to popular opinion, it wasn’t just Oliver’s journey. It was Felicity’s journey, it was Diggle’s journey, it was Thea’s journey, and yes, it was Olicity’s journey.

Because this isn’t a made-up ship, this is not fans reading into things, this is not a possibility we’ve been denied. This is an actual reality, one that the show focused on for years, one that they capitalized on when it was convenient, and one that they’ve now decided to turn their backs on.

“They’re being mature adults” has been the go-to excuse for the two of them behaving like they weren’t engaged a year ago.

But, really, maturity is one thing, and discussing the person you were so in love with that you saw her face the instant before you died going home to her boyfriend, in the same apartment YOU shared with her, like that’s nothing?

It’s not mature – it’s impossible.

It’s just as impossible as actually living in the same place you shared with your ex-fiancé, sharing the same bed with another man, and not even acknowledging how weird it all is.

There's a lot more and just like with most of what she writes, I really agree.

[EmilyBettFan]

The "audience" that they switched to is not an audience at all. Because it's already shown to go more rather than come back. Where as before the had social media presence and the fans orchestrating trends and all sorts of the things even during work hours. 

The media people and the show have totally screwed up their free press. Like it or not it is mostly the female portion of this show that gets shit done for Arrow on the social media front. Their lack of trending and possible ratings prove that imo.

[BunsenBurner]

I saw something on twitter that had a video about favorite Black Canary costumes in comics and tv.  Only Sara's costume made it in the top 5 because it was sleek and didn't have a multitude of buckles. I laughed.  

(Wording is incorrect but that was the gist of it)

Edited February 22, 2017 by BunsenBurner
incorrect is the opposite of correct

[Starfish35]

I'm curious to see what Dinah's costume looks like.  Is it going to be more like Sara's or Laurel's, or somewhere in between?

[kismet]

I wonder if they'll make her wear a blonde wig?

It will be interesting since they haven't produced a good suit in years.

I bet we will have a jacket scene though. At least they don't have to dig it up.