The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[Starfish35]

11 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I'm finding it extra hilarity forever that America's Next Black Canary is a stone cold killer. Remember when Sara could never ~carry the mantle~ because she was an assassin? Trolololololol.

All of this.  Sara could never be the BC because she was an "remorseless killer".   And also didn't have the right name.  Sorry, but I'm enjoying this.

[Belinea]

41 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Remember

Is there something to remember? Was the show on before this season? I don't remember anything. I only remember Laurel being the best fighter evaaaa  and that nobody could live up to that but thankfully now there is someone. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Belinea

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

You like Eurotrip -- so awesome!  I loved the Scotty doesn't know song.

 

3 hours ago, Delphi said:

Also one of my favourites. 

 

"You made out with your sister!!"

Michelle was great in it. 

"Worst twins ever."  Lol. 

[tv echo]

I love the reviewer's comment that it's Sara's shoes, not Laurel's, that were impossible to fill...

Arrow 5×11 Review: ‘Second Chances’
ALYSSA BARBIERI   Feb. 2, 2017
http://fangirlish.com/arrow-5x11-review-second-chances/

Quote

This season hasn’t been a smooth ride to say the least. The writers have betrayed a lot of their fans to the point where it’s affected the buzz and ratings surrounding what once was the king of comic television. But my how the mighty have fallen.

But after last week’s midseason finale, there was a sense of optimism that I felt for the first time since before the start of the season. The show focused on the things that I enjoyed and planted some seeds of what was to come. It included some of the core elements that has made Arrow the show that a lot of love.
*  *  *
While “Second Chances” wasn’t perfect – and angered me in some regard – there was enough there to not entirely lose me. There was the introduction of Felicity’s descent into darkness as her former hactivist self has been reawakened, as well as Diggle finally being absolved of these ludicrous crimes (thank you, Felicity and mini Felicity.) I also really enjoyed the theme of the episode as Team Arrow has always been a place for people to get a second chance.

But the thing that kind of bogged this episode down was this insane desire to have to have a Black Canary. Most of this episode was insistent on establishing a new Black Canary, which showed in Oliver’s uncharacteristic pursuit of this stranger that gave him no real reason to pursue her other than the fact that she had a canary cry (and that the script told him to.)
*  *  *
Here’s the thing, I really want to give this Tina/Dinah girl a chance to win me over. But Arrow certainly isn’t helping matters by forcing her into a mantle that has already worn out its use. This is the third Black Canary on Arrow. I understand that the writers feel like Black Canary is an important part of this story, but I don’t understand why there have to be so many Black Canaries. Hell, Sara was just Canary before Laurel eventually became Black Canary. Can’t Tina/Dinah take on a new moniker?

Sure, the writers had Laurel tell Oliver that she wanted someone else to carry on the Black Canary name. But why?

If you look at the events prior to this season, Black Canary wasn’t a figure like Green Arrow or The Flash. Sure, Star City residents knew her. But it wasn’t until after the Arrow writers killed Laurel that they began to talk her up and establish this glorified legacy that we hear about literally every episode. I don’t know what show the writers think we were watching, but it wasn’t one where that was a thing. It could’ve been a thing. But they didn’t write it that way.
*  *  *
Here’s the frustrating part: I love Black Canary. She’s one of my favorite comic book characters. But the way that Arrow is treating the character as disposable is frankly annoying me. It’s like they’re using her too much to the point where the name is overused so much that you begin to dislike it. It’s like the writers realize they need her on the show to appease their comic hearts, but they have absolutely no idea what to do with her.

Not to mention the way that Arrow has treated Black Canary on its show hasn’t been good in the slightest. It wasn’t until they killed Laurel that they actually started portraying her as this grandiose figure that was representative of everything that was great about being a superhero. But the truth is, those “impossible shoes” that the writers made Felicity mention weren’t impossible in the slightest. If anything, Arrow actually showed that it was Sara’s shoes that were impossible.
*  *  *
I mean, sure it’s different because they’re not together together – like when Oliver withheld that information about his son – but for the most part Oliver and Felicity have always had a very trusting relationship. I feel like Felicity is going to keep this secret from Oliver as a means to keep him and everyone else safe once things turn bad. Then eventually she’ll be able to see where Oliver was coming from in keeping something from her. It’s kind of like having to walk a mile in someone’s shoes. You don’t understand it until you do. Plus, who doesn’t want to see Oliver be Felicity’s light like she’s been his for so long?
*  *  *
1. Felicity Smoak has a fan club. She is a hero to so many people. Don’t you dare forget it. While the masked heroes were parading around Hub City attempting to convince a woman to join their team that made it damn clear she didn’t want to, Felicity was putting her ass on the line to save one of her closest friends. And in the process she met one of her super fans. One that had been inspired by her. One that has seemingly inspired Felicity to return to her dark roots. (Just please not the literal dark roots.)

2. For the love of God, do not force a Green Arrow/Black Canary romance for sake of comics. When this show starts forcing things it pisses me off. I want a chance to like Dinah (I guess we have to call her that). But if Arrow starts pulling this shit – and forcing things to be that aren’t – it’s going to take that from me.

3. I’m sorry, doesn’t Dinah Drake already exist on Arrow? Isn’t Laurel’s mother the designated Dinah Drake in this universe? There’s that lack of logic once again. The only reason Tina’s name is Dinah Drake is because they need an excuse to make her Black Canary. Oh, look. She has the name. Oh, look. She has the canary cry. Why can’t she just be her?

4. So much for keeping superpowers out of Arrow. Wasn’t this something that the producers said wouldn’t happen in season five? How we were going away from the magic and super abilities and more towards that season one vibe where the closest thing to a metahuman was a superskilled archer? Once again, missing the logic. (But if there’s one metahuman I want to keep it’s Rory, who isn’t really a metahuman so much as he’s someone who wears mystical garbs. I don’t care. I still want to keep him.)

Edited February 2, 2017 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

Quote

I mean, sure it’s different because they’re not together together – like when Oliver withheld that information about his son – but for the most part Oliver and Felicity have always had a very trusting relationship. I feel like Felicity is going to keep this secret from Oliver as a means to keep him and everyone else safe once things turn bad. Then eventually she’ll be able to see where Oliver was coming from in keeping something from her. It’s kind of like having to walk a mile in someone’s shoes.

Hate it. HAAAAAAATE. Keeping the dumb kid secret kept NO ONE SAFE. Not the dumb kid, not Felicity, not Thea, NOBODY.

[ComicFan777]

..especially after Merlyn found out and he still kept it from her.

[AyChihuahua]

They can equate it to him keeping his undercover mission w the LOA secret, I guess (although cutting them out was flat-out terrible strategy), and I'm fine with her keeping secrets from him in general, bc (1) he deserves it; and (2) they're not together anymore. But I will never ever ever ever buy any of the bullshit they ever fling about that shitstain of a storyline.

[dtissagirl]

I mean, keeping the kid a secret made Oliver safe from being... yelled at by Baby Mama? [The horror!] So I figure Felicity keeping him out of her ~dark arc~ is her pre-emptively trying not get yelled at by... Oliver? Reciprocity!

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I mean, keeping the kid a secret made Oliver safe from being... yelled at by Baby Mama? [The horror!] So I figure Felicity keeping him out of her ~dark arc~ is her pre-emptively trying not get yelled at by... Oliver? Reciprocity!

Wouldn't it have to be fear of being yelled at by some sanctimonious lying gold-digging hag or male hag-equivalent third party?

[insomniadreams88]

10 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Hate it. HAAAAAAATE. Keeping the dumb kid secret kept NO ONE SAFE. Not the dumb kid, not Felicity, not Thea, NOBODY.

If anything, William was NOT safe because Oliver kept him a secret. No one knew that they should worry about DD finding out about him other than ...Thea right before the kidnapping. 

5 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

They can equate it to him keeping his undercover mission w the LOA secret, I guess (although cutting them out was flat-out terrible strategy), and I'm fine with her keeping secrets from him in general, bc (1) he deserves it; and (2) they're not together anymore. But I will never ever ever ever buy any of the bullshit they ever fling about that shitstain of a storyline.

Yeah, I'm going to have issues if they try to equate the two onscreen - unless it's so that Felicity can point out that it's not at all the same.

Besides, it's not like Oliver really pushed to find out what she did. "It's a long story. Go get John out of prison." "Okay. Bye." Not the same as "Tell me what's bothering you. We're a team." "It's over. Never mind the trips to CC I'm making while we're engaged and you were just paralyzed." 

[dtissagirl]

5 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Wouldn't it have to be fear of being yelled at by some sanctimonious lying gold-digging hag or male hag-equivalent third party?

Why are you using human logic?!

[AyChihuahua]

12 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Why are you using human logic?!

Shame on me. I forgot always to picture them as a roomful of poo-flinging baboons. Possibly Neptunian baboons.

[lemotomato]

20 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

It's a little weird that there weren't any EP interviews posted after the ep aired. I thought for sure there would be something singing Tinah's praises. Those would be up by now, right? I recall usually seeing them right when the ep is over on the east coast. 

I wonder if the lack of post-mortem interviews is because the EPs really really wanted to keep the Dinah Drake reveal a secret, to the point where they didn't even want to mention it to reporters before the episode aired. People may have jokingly speculated that Tina was going to turn out to be Dinah, but I didn't see any hint the show was actually going to go there until the reddit spoiler popped up. Well, except for Brian Ford Sullivan's "Comic fans are gonna love this!" tweet.

[Guest]

I have to admit, I also expected more of a fuss about the intro of Tina/BC in post-ep interviews. There's literally been nothing. I'm even surprised that SA hasn't sent out a tweet or something about her tbh. Although maybe he'll do that soon. IDK.

If we don't get anything after she officially suits up (I expect the costume will be the big thing the fanboys are waiting for), it will definitely add to the impression that it was something they were forced to do by WB and maybe not something they really wanted. Because honestly, the EP's suddenly saying they can't make a GA show without BC was a pretty big turnaround.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I wonder if the lack of post-mortem interviews is because the EPs really really wanted to keep the Dinah Drake reveal a secret, to the point where they didn't even want to mention it to reporters before the episode aired.

Maybe! It just seems weird to me that they'd go to that extreme when it seems like they were so worried about the general audience thinking the Dinah/Dinah Canary Cry/Canary Cry connection was so ludicrous they had to explain it away as destiny, haha. Plus, it's not as if they hid the fact that she was going to be the next Black Canary - they gave that part away in previews, so her being Dinah Drake wouldn't give anything away that we didn't already know. It seems like such a weird decision for what ultimately amounts to an easter egg. 

But this show's promo is nonsensical, so IDK why I'm trying to make sense of it!

[lemotomato]

52 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I have to admit, I also expected more of a fuss about the intro of Tina/BC in post-ep interviews. There's literally been nothing. I'm even surprised that SA hasn't sent out a tweet or something about her tbh. Although maybe he'll do that soon. IDK.

As far as I can tell, out of all the newbies this season, the only one he sent an introductory tweet about was Rick Gonzalez. 

The Arrowwriters tweeted a welcome to JH yesterday and RG RT-ed it, but I haven't seen any other acknowledgement of her or BC on social media from anyone else on the show since the reveal.

[tv echo]

Talia al Ghul, a surprise cameo and a new Canary in the latest Arrow
Trent Moore Feb 02, 2017 11:00am
http://www.blastr.com/2017-2-2/talia-al-ghul-surprise-cameo-and-new-canary-latest-arrow

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After a stinger scene last week, this episode was pretty much all about the potential new Canary recruit Tina Boland. Juliana Harkavy does a solid job of bringing the character to life, and following her quest for revenge against the drug dealers who killed her partner is an interesting story in itself that took some surprising turns (namely that Deadpool-esque fake-out where she blows the baddie away). However, it was far from perfect (more on that later).
*  *  *
As much as Harkavy did a good job of bringing Boland to life, the contrivances in this episode didn't do her a whole lot of favors. The big 'reveal' that her real lame[sic] is Dinah Drake was cringe-worthy, especially considering Oliver literally talked to Central City PD and they knew her as Tina Boland. If that was just her undercover name, they obviously wouldn't have been calling her that around the precinct, right?

For fans, it was a big moment: Dinah Drake is actually the original Black Canary from DC Comics, so now they've essentially introduced the OG Canary to the Arrowverse. Which is cool! But, c'mon. We're supposed to believe two people that have the relatively rare name Dinah (Laurel's first name was also Dinah) become vigilantes with Canary-esque powers? WHAT A COINCIDENCE. There's fate, and then there's pure ridiculousness. This one is a bridge too far.

Also, so Oliver is apparently totally cool with her just killing all these dudes? Yes, he has killed when necessary, but the Green Arrow makes it a point to try to not kill people. But here he just kind of shrugs when Boland takes two dudes out execution-style. Second chances are one thing, but she's proven herself to be a stone-cold killer. It all makes enough sense in the context of the episode but you'd have expected Oliver to quibble at least a little bit more, right? Also, does Oliver care at all about his secret identity? Dude, a bit of discretion, especially since at the time she's shown zero interest in joining the team.
*  *  *
How will the new Dinah fit in with the rest of the team? We see some fleeting shots of her in action next week, so she's apparently jumping in pretty quickly. Also, what was up with Felicity's giddy look while digging through the hacked documents? Is she getting the hacktivist bug again? Will we be seeing goth Felicity back full time?

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

To “Second Chances”: Arrow Finds A Possible New Black Canary In Dinah Drake
Verena Cote   Feb. 2, 2017
http://www.4ye.co.uk/2017/02/to-second-chances-arrow-finds-a-possible-new-black-canary-in-dinah-drake/

Quote

The episode also introduced Dina Drake, who in the original DC Comics, is the original Black Canary and the mother of Dinah Laurel Lance. Could this be Arrow’s desperate attempt to finally get the Black Canary right? If so, they should have chosen a more relatable, a more likeable character. We are intrigued to see how the character of Dinah will develop over the remaining episodes of season five. Will she stick around beyond that? Only time will tell.

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow Finally Brings Out the True Black Canary
James Whitbrook  Feb. 2, 2017
http://io9.gizmodo.com/arrow-finally-brings-out-the-true-black-canary-1791917626#_ga=1.190059363.933706618.1486123709

Quote

If that wasn’t convenient enough for Ollie’s quest for a new Canary, the revelation in the closing sequences of the episode was: Tina’s name isn’t actually Tina. That was the name she used for undercover operations. Her real name is Dinah Drake.
*  *  *
As comics fans know, Dinah Drake is the original, genuine article Black Canary, who first appeared in the pages of Flash Comics back in 1947. Dinah would go on to meet her husband, Larry Lance, get married, and have a daughter, Dinah Laurel Lance, who would take on her mother’s mantle in the Golden Age of comics and become a major DC hero, and even be a founding member of the Justice League.
*  *  *
However, Dinah Drake is absolutely not the first Dinah to appear on Arrow. In fact, she’s not even the first Dinah Drake, which confuses everything greatly. Here’s the list:

• Dinah Drake, formerly Tina Boland
• Dinah Laurel Lance, the most recent Canary, who went by Laurel 99% of the time and is currently dead (not counting her evil Earth-2 clone)
• Dinah Lance née Drake, ex-wife of Quentin Lance, mother of Dinah Laurel Lance, and played by Doctor Who’s Alex Kingston

So yeah. This isn’t exactly the first time Arrow has given us attempted to course-correct its Black Canary. But man, it’s pretty weird that the show is introducing a third Dinah to tie Tina all the way back into the comics legacy. Is Dinah a really popular women’s name in Star City or something? Maybe that’s the next big Arrow mystery.

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow 5x11 Review: "Second Chances" (Will the Real Black Canary Please Stand Up?)
Just About Write   Feb. 2, 2017
http://www.itsjustaboutwrite.com/2017/02/arrow-5x11-review-second-chances-will.html

Quote

I actually didn't think this week's Arrow was bad. If anything, I was just a tad bit bored about half-way through. But "Second Chances" introduced us to a new woman to fill Black Canary's boots — Tina (whose real name is actually Dinah because of course it is; nevertheless, I'll be referring to her as Tina throughout my reviews)....
*  *  *
But it's not enough. And Oliver, in spite of his ways, is the one person who understands well the notion that crossing names off a list doesn't make you feel any safer or happier. If anything, it can illuminate the gaping hole we have within each of our hearts. But back to Tina for a moment: as much as I appreciated the actresses' attempt to inject ferocity into her (and Tina was pretty fierce and unabashedly dark), the character herself isn't very intriguing. She's a trope — we've heard her story a million times before. A woman loses a man she loves, then vows to avenge him and goes dark because of it. The only added bonus in Arrow's case is that Tina is a metahuman and is able to use her powers to help in her crusade. Otherwise, I'm hoping that Tina will be able to break out of her stereotypical role now that she'll be integrated into Team Arrow.

... I didn't hate Laurel as a character as much as some people did, but I'm incredibly confused as to why Oliver didn't think people with professional fighting skills, advanced degrees, and who were humanitarian heroes couldn't replace a woman who went to a few private boxing lessons and worked as an attorney. Laurel was human, but for some reason the show wants us to believe that Oliver elevated her to superhuman status all the time. It's an odd choice for the writers to be so fixated on Laurel's death that it is used as a catalyst for the characters to do things they need to do but don't want to. 
*  *  *
I get that comic books essentially center around tropes and men rescuing women, but it just struck me that Oliver was so pushy in this episode in helping Tina. (The best part, obviously, is that in the flashbacks it was a woman (Talia) who was trying to redeem and save Oliver. So maybe I'll let this whole "save Tina from herself" thing slide.) I really did enjoy that Tina is unpredictable, though. Oliver expects that once Tina has the drug lord in her sights and at her mercy, she'll let him be prosecuted by the law. She asks him what Vince would do. Tina pauses, hesitates, and then pulls the trigger a few times. She tells Oliver that he would have wanted her to do THAT.
*  *  *
In trying to exonerate Diggle, Felicity takes a trip into the dark web and quite literally stumbles right into her past. With Rory watching and listening, she explains who she used to be — goth, a little angry and reckless, and a one-woman hacktivist. As Felicity recounts who she used to be, she does so in the way we all do: with wisdom and a little bit of nostalgia. I think it's easy to remember that time Felicity hallucinated her past self's scathing remarks and think that Goth!Felicity was all bad. But she really wasn't. If Felicity hadn't experienced the harsh darkness in the past that she did, she would not be the woman we know today. I think the one thing that this week's story illuminated is the fact that Felicity is at a crossroads in her life. It's something that we've known for a while now and that the show should have properly portrayed (given the fact that Felicity had to drop a nuclear weapon on a town, watched a friend of hers die, and then also learn her boyfriend died at the hands of her ex-fiance), but is at the center of her story in "Second Chances."
*  *  *
That's where it's critical that this storyline is handled well. Because Felicity's descent into the rabbit hole that is Pandora — the program that Kojo handed over to Felicity — must be deliberate and delicate. Felicity's darkness is not like Oliver's darkness. My hope is that she slips slowly back into the way she used to be and that she continues to crave the power and freedom that comes with being total uninhibited and totally reckless with the rules for how she delivers justice. Felicity wants justice to be served and my hope is that this season, we'll get the chance to see her explore what that means and what lines she's willing to cross to accomplish her goals.

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Agents of GEEK Podcast Episode 59
Craig Wack & Tatiana Torres   02/02/2017
http://agentsofgeekpodcast.com/wordpress/

-- Craig wasn't sure if he liked 511 or not. Tatiana also had mixed feelings about this episode. She felt that a lot of times lately she's wondering why the Arrow writers are doing what they're doing. She liked the Felicity story, although she thought the hacktivist part was "a bit contrived" but it was good "to see her get a win in."  She liked seeing Oliver, Rene and Curtis in their scenes (Tatiana mistakenly thought they were in Central City), but felt it was "convoluted how they got their information" about Tina, with Captain Singh taking a call from the Green Arrow. Craig noted that there were inconsistencies there that they "sort of fudged on because they wanted the 'Martha' reveal at the end of the episode." They wondered why they didn't just have Grant Gustin show up for a shot, since the shows film right next to each other.

-- Tatiana thought the Talia flashback was a ret-con which contradicted what we saw on the show before. She noted that Oliver learned how to shoot an arrow and decided to wear the Hood because of Shado. So she thought the show was ret-conning Oliver's origin story.

-- Craig thought the set-up for them finding a new Black Canary "was kinda lame," with the team going through various paper resumes of candidates and determining whether or not they were "worthy." He said that it "really rang false, considering, like, everyone who's on the team now, they had to drag on." Craig noted that, before, Oliver had to be forced into adding onto the team, but now he's all "gung-ho" about adding someone to the team.

-- Craig also noted that "there's not a peep out of Prometheus" while Oliver adds a new member to his team and also Diggle gets released from jail. So Prometheus is on vacation while Team Arrow adds two members.

-- Craig thought that this episode needed Evelyn Sharp because "there was no pressure for them to do anything." She could've talked with Rory since they both suffered losses and could've bonded over that. The episode could've "sacrificed one scene of Rene eating cheeseburgers" in order to include a Rory/Evelyn scene.

-- Craig noted that, once again, all Rory did was "spout Yiddish words and look baffled." Tatiana thought that Rory was useless: "He does not fight crime except once in a blue moon... He does not hack, he does not invent." Craig: "His costume's too expensive. I think that's what it boils down to."

-- Tatiana thought that this episode seemed "like filler because there was no Big Bad, there was no, like, real character movement - I mean, there was a little bit with Felicity, but it wasn't like, you know, anybody took a huge leap." She said that they just had a filler episode.

-- Craig did like the back story of the new Black Canary, having gone through her own "island" and feeling "hollow in the same ways" as Oliver did.

-- Tatiana thought that the team is "huge" now and that they need to get rid of someone. She also reminded Craig that there's still Thea and Quentin, and wondered what they were doing. We haven't seen Thea "in forever." 

-- They both thought that Prometheus needed to kill someone on the team. Craig speculated that Curtis might be killed off, but Tatiana disagreed. They noted that Curtis is now on the right track to being a superhero using tech.

-- Craig had mixed feelings about this episode because "there was stuff that was worthwhile in it, ultimately, but the journey was just, like, - it was just terrible... I mean, it felt full of plot holes and inconsistencies and things that were, you know, done or not done specifically for plot reasons." He again mentioned that Prometheus conveniently took a break (just like Damian Darhk did last year).

-- Craig speculated that Prometheus is Talia al Ghul. He thought that we'll see a very old Talia in present day "because who f**ked up the Lazarus Pit? Oliver Queen."

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow “Second Chances” (S5:E11): Hello Dinah
Posted on February 2, 2017 by Kelly Konda
https://weminoredinfilm.com/2017/02/02/arrow-second-chances-s5e11-hello-dinah/

Quote

... As played by Juliana Harkavy, this new character is perfectly badass, quick with a quip (turns out, she’s not a fan of Team Arrow’s costume choices) and already willing to call Oliver on his bullshit (or at least try to). The extra kicker is that her name is not Tina Boland, as Oliver and pals thought, but instead Dinah Drake. “Second Chances” was her origin story, and Harkavy acquitted herself very well.
*  *  *
But, but, but…there’s already a Dinah Drake on the show. In the comics, Dinah Drake Lance and Dinah Laurel Lance are mother and daughter, or at least they were until the New 52. Arrow honored this continuity by making Alex Kingston’s character Dinah Drake and Kattie Cassidy Dinah Laurel. Did Arrow simply forget about that? Or this is in some impossibly ludicrous away related to Flashpoint, as in maybe Kingston’s character isn’t named Dinah anymore? Arrow is free to deviate from the comics in any way it wants, but to just deviate from its own continuity without explanation? 

That’s just lazy.
*  *  *
It didn’t have to be. As origin story episodes go, “Second Chances” was perfectly workable, nicely tying together the moment the new Canary gained her scream with the moment she lost the love of her life and managing to make yet more “Oliver tires to save someone’s soul because he knows what they’re going through” speeches engaging instead of overly familiar (to be fair, Prometheus has at least added a new wrinkle of self-doubt into Oliver’s proselytizing). Elsewhere in the episode, Felicity re-discovered her hacktivist leanings, Diggle walked away from his legal troubles a free man and flashback Oliver finally settled his vendetta in Russia (at least I think he did) with Talia’s help. Why go out of your way to name the new girl Dinah Drake? She didn’t need that seal of approval.
*  *  *
One of the common criticisms of season 5 (voiced quite eloquently by one of this site’s readers in the comments section to an earlier Arrow review) is that the show’s understandable desire to inject new blood into the cast has gone too far, resulting in the marginalization of legacy cast members like Thea and Quentin and de-emphasis on the central trio of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity (the three rarely share the screen together anymore). Moreover, Arrow now has more cast members than it knows what to do with.
*  *  *
As much as I enjoyed Juliana Harkavy’s performance in “Second Chances,” her presence on the show seems likely to compound the season’s so-many-characters-so-little-time problem, and it speaks to the tendency to now elevate the new over the old. 

... That all being said, this new Dinah does seem pretty awesome. So, really, whatever problems I have with all of this will probably be forgotten with each new scene in which Dinah outshines her co-stars.

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow Review: Second Chances (Season 5 Episode 11)
February 2, 2017  Lissete Lanuza Sáenz
http://telltaletv.com/2017/02/arrow-review-second-chances-season-5-episode-11/

Quote

“Second Chances” isn’t a terrible episode (Been there, seen that). It just isn’t a great one either. It’s slow, weighed down by nostalgia and it has entirely too much Tina/Dinah brooding and too little of the characters we already know and love.

That isn’t even its most egregious offense, no, that title is reserved for the writer’s lack of attention to continuity, or better yet, their belief that we, the viewers, can and will accept the re-writing of canon. That we’ll buy into their selective memory and remember what they want us to and nothing more.
*  *  *
Arrow had a Black Canary. She was never my favorite character – I never thought they did her justice, but the show did have one. They got rid of her.

So why do we need another one?

The Green Arrow story is too entwined with the Black Canary, the writers might say. And I’ll respond: I’m surprised to hear that’s something the show cares about. It’s not like Arrow killed the Black Canary or anything.

Oh, wait. They did. Twice, if you’re inclined to count Sara’s time as The Canary.

My problem isn’t with Tina – I tend to err on the side of supporting female characters, and she seems like a capable, kick-ass woman with an interesting backstory.

My problem is with the thinking that she’s a necessary part of Oliver’s journey when Arrow has spent five years selling the idea of a different Green Arrow.

That’s why they gave us Felicity. That’s why they gave us Diggle.

Remember those two? You know, the best part of the show? I do.
*  *  *
Felicity Smoak was a hero before she ever started helping the Green Arrow, and she inspired people long before she was a vigilante. In this episode, one of those people comes back, not just to help her, but to remind her that there’s not just one way to make a difference.

At some point, when the idea of a new Black Canary was raised, people speculated about Felicity becoming the new Black Canary, but Felicity Smoak has never needed a mask to be a hero, and for all this show has done wrong this season, I’m glad they had enough sense not to go in that direction.
*   *  *
We didn’t need a new Dinah Drake. We didn’t even need a new Black Canary. But, if we were going to get one, on a show that’s already separated itself so much from the comics, we should have gotten a completely different character.

Arrow’s problem, in this instance, is that it wants to play both sides, to appease the comic book fans and the show fans who don’t read comics. The first half of the season failed one half of that fandom, the second half seems ready to fail the other half.

Five seasons in, it’s way too late to try to straddle the fence, Arrow. Pick a side. And pick fast, or there won’t be any fans left watching.
*  *  *
-Rory not knowing slang is about as believable as the time it takes Curtis to turn into Mr. Terrific.
*  *  *
-Oliver, please never start conversations with: “I spent five years in hell.”
-Oliver’s selectiveness when it comes to killing people is really endearing.
-Helicopter pilot, fine, he can die. Bad guy? HE NEEDS TO LIVE OMG DON’T KILL HIM THINK OF YOUR SOUL.
*  *  *
-So, is Tina going to be Laurel’s long lost sister too? Because, guess what – I remember Laurel’s mom was ALSO called Dinah Drake. Coincidence?
-Is Oliver spying on his team? How does he know what Curtis and Wild Dog said to each other?

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

56 minutes ago, tv echo said:

-- Craig speculated that Prometheus is Talia al Ghul. He thought that we'll see a very old Talia in present day "because who f**ked up the Lazarus Pit? Oliver Queen."

What an odd thing to say. Oliver had nothing whatsoever in any way to do with fucking up the Lazarus Pit. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

[tv echo]

Posting this solely for its snark-worthy headline...

Oliver Queen Has A Little Birdhouse In His Soul
Posted by Dan Wickline February 2, 2017
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/02/02/oliver-queen-little-birdhouse-soul/

Quote

Funny how two people can view the same thing and have two very different reactions. I finished watching Arrow last night, returned to my desk and found one of my collaborators having said, “Worst episode of Arrow in a long time.” I, on the other hand, did not come away with that feeling. I actually thought it was one of the better ones from both a character growth standpoint as well as story. This is also a story that gets the character back on track in a lot of ways. Let me break it down.

There are three basic plots going on here: New Canary, free Diggle and flashback. The A story focuses on Oliver Queen finally feeling ready to keep his promise to Laurel Lance to continue the legacy of Black Canary. But in his usual frustrating way, he keeps rejecting all the awesome candidates the others on the team suggest. But Oliver is looking for something that he’s not even sure what it is… but only the right person will fill that little birdhouse in his soul. Because that’s what it is, his chance to honor someone he loved and, in his mind, failed. He’s not looking for someone who wants to be Black Canary… he’s looking for someone who needs to be Black Canary.
*  *  *
This episode is setting up a lot of things. Dinah Drake was the name of the original Black Canary, part of the Justice Society and the mother of Dinah Laurel Lance. So in a way we were just introduced to the original Black Canary. And the chemistry between the two is pretty good from the start and there is not, “I slept with your sister”, baggage… that we know of. Ollie did get around. And the show is bringing the Oliver who got on the Queens Gambit around to the one who got off the island and came home to Starling City in the pilot. Talia is going to be his last teacher which explains a lot about his training. Bringing the first five seasons full circle.

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow Season 5 Episode 11 – ‘Second Chances’ Review
3rd February 2017 Kevin Perreau 
http://www.filmoria.co.uk/arrow-season-5-episode-11-second-chances-review/

Quote

The second episode, after the midseason break, brings out two major players, Tina Boland (Juliana Harkavy) and Talia al Ghul (Lexa Doig). Team Arrow searches for a new candidate to enter the Black Canary mantle, and how coincidental that there is a meta that has that same exact screeching power, years of police work, and a vengeance filled story line.
*  *  *
Ambivalent about Harkey’s performance, or perhaps the cliche Arrow story line, nothing about the new Black Canary was intriguing nor exciting. After time again, Arrow tries to push audiences the Black Canary character down your throats, and this was another perfect example. After the Earth-2 Laurel Lance just entered the picture and a new Black Canary joining the team, perhaps the show could have used a break between any bird related hero/villain. In addition, the overplayed revengeful past only seemed to drag on, whilst nice to have Oliver perhaps talk and relate to someone about this, we have had seasons all about revenge in the past. Furthermore, the pep talks done by Oliver seemed flat and were annoying. Only time can tell if Harkey will prove to be a valuable addition to the team.
*  *  *
Whilst it will be great to see Diggle out of a small meeting room, it is still uncertain whether he will return as a staple character of Team Arrow, or continue his consultancy role for Oliver. It has been disappointing the way Diggle has been treated in recent episodes, equally disappointing with the lack of Adrian Chase as well. After last week’s charismatic performance, Adrian, and Rory (Rag-man) are once again put on the sidelines, to make the occasional comment here and there.

Same writer's review of 510...
http://www.filmoria.co.uk/arrow-season-5-episode-10-who-are-you-review/

Quote

Crowded by his feelings for Laurel, Oliver is nowhere as useful as he should be. Felicity steps up, in an Oliver-esque fashion, making brash decision after another without any sort of discussion with the team. After Black Siren attacks the team, she tries to convince Oliver that it was the main antagonist of the season, Prometheus, that made her do it. Oliver swiftly, trying to play hero to his lost love, tries to control the situation, but Felicity makes an order to the team to move in and take her in. Felicity was never one to act on instinct, but on deduction, wit and brain. She completely steps out of her shell, showing the greater emotional intelligence she has compared to Oliver, and takes control of a situation that might have escalated.

Once Laurel is captured, Felicity makes another decision to let her go, in which she reveals she had trackers planted in her. All very smart decisions that ultimately help the team, but her abrasive reactions may soon become her downfall, just as it failed Oliver so many times before.... 
*  *  *
The episode explored identity in the superhero format, a theme that every character will have trouble with in the world. Albeit Ragman was almost unseen, every character had showed heart and value. A subtler and quiet episode of Arrow, which was a fantastic reconstruction of the Arrowverse and the characters from the preceding disasters. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

What a stunning coincidence...

Black Canary Confirmed As New 'Injustice 2' Playable Character, Dinah Drake Debuts On 'Arrow' Season 5
BELLE SEBASTIANUpdate Date: Feb 03, 2017 09:00 AM EST
http://www.counselheal.com/articles/32180/20170203/black-canary-confirmed-new-injustice-2-playable-character-dinah-drake.htm

Quote

It's a huge week for fans of the DC comic book heroine Black Canary, who has just debuted in video games and TV. "Injustice 2" has just revealed Dinah Lance as one of the playable characters in the highly anticipated NetherRealm sequel and even made sure to release her awesome gameplay trailer. In addition to that, "Arrow" Season 5 has just confirmed that Tina Boland is in fact, Dinah Drake, a metahuman with her own Canary Cry.
*  *  *
The introduction of Black Canary as a playable character in "Injustice 2" was immediately followed up with the "Arrow" Season 5 episode "Second Chances", which revealed Tina Boland to be none other than Dinah Drake. Although the CW series has already introduced Dinah Lance as Laurel and Sara Lance's mother, it looks like the show is eager to bring in the real Black Canary with actual powers.

Edited February 3, 2017 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, tv echo said:

What a stunning coincidence...

Black Canary Confirmed As New 'Injustice 2' Playable Character, Dinah Drake Debuts On 'Arrow' Season 5
BELLE SEBASTIANUpdate Date: Feb 03, 2017 09:00 AM EST
http://www.counselheal.com/articles/32180/20170203/black-canary-confirmed-new-injustice-2-playable-character-dinah-drake.htm

So it looks like it was DC pushing her.

[Chaser]

Next week: Black Canary added to DC movie verse.

[ComicFan777]

From video game article: "It certainly looks like the new Black Canary will be a fitting addition to Team Arrow this season."

I still don't think that a meta BC works with Arrow because she makes GA useless.  She could scream and squash everyone in sight.  She doesn't need a team.

[tv echo]

Injustice 2: Black Canary Gameplay Reveal Trailer - IGN First
Published on Feb 2, 2017, by IGN

[AyChihuahua]

Holy crap, that is some serious uncanny valley shit right there.

[Chaser]

For a moment I thought that was the video game work KC did. It's not.

Watched the clip of Tinah getting her powers, 'nut sack' or 'sack' is like her go to threat.

[ladylaw99]

I just can't take this canary cry. No matter which way I see it and can't take it seriously and have to laugh.  

[theOAfc]

19 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Hate it. HAAAAAAATE. Keeping the dumb kid secret kept NO ONE SAFE. Not the dumb kid, not Felicity, not Thea, NOBODY.

Guilting Felicity in order for her to understand olivers "position" instead of having him man up and earn back the trust. This is why the show is never gonna become like it used to. All these twisted ideas that it pushes(i bet they dont even understand they are doing it).

Its also that these two situations are not similar at all. Considering that Oliver and Felicity barely talk to each other anymore VS them being engaged last season. But hey...

Edited February 3, 2017 by theOAfc

[kismet]

20 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

..especially after Merlyn found out and he still kept it from her.

That for me was the biggest turning point of the secret being a simple mistake by OQ with good intentions to full on stupid moment in which OQ is no longer keeping people safe but rather keeping his secret secret and putting people directly in front of danger. Even BM probably would have given him the OK to tell trusted people starting with her. A mass murderer responsible for the death of your father, your friend and hundreds of people and you don't feel the need to loop in people? Give BM and your team a heads up that an innocent child is in the crosshairs of a megolomaniac and egomaniac both of which with long kill lists. But yeah let's keep it for a bit because of plot.

The secret is no longer a benign misstep it became malignant. And its annoyed me that the show never acknowledged that. They used it for a clichéd break-up. It was dumb, but not as dumb as they made OQ. The MM angle of the secret was really ridiculous. How stupid do you have to make OQ because you lack basic storytelling skills?  

[BunsenBurner]

Just a question were all the shows this past week called 2nd Chances? If not were they all about 2nd Chances? I couldn't finish Arrow after stopping at least 6 times I gave up and won't finish it. I happened to see a clip of LOT and they used the phrase 2nd Chances and that is what made me wonder.

[BkWurm1]

32 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

Just a question were all the shows this past week called 2nd Chances? If not were they all about 2nd Chances? I couldn't finish Arrow after stopping at least 6 times I gave up and won't finish it. I happened to see a clip of LOT and they used the phrase 2nd Chances and that is what made me wonder.

I don't recall if they actually used the 2nd Chance phrase or not but come to think of it, on THe Flash we had HR (Wells) talking about coming to this earth to for another shot.  On Supergirl it's more of a stretch but the main Villain was kind of cut a break and Supergirl let her escape and is now hoping she will make better choices, so I'd say at the very least there was something in the water, lol.  Aren't all the writers in the same building?  They probably cross pollinate ideas without even trying.  

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, they're all in the same building and probably chit chat in the break room. LOL

[tv echo]

For some reason, this reviewer thinks Ragman's name is David...

‘Arrow’ Recap: The New Black Canary and the Return of Goth Felicity?
Robert Chan   February 2, 2017
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/arrow-recap-the-new-black-canary-and-the-return-of-goth-felicity-154353898.html

Quote

Arrow felt decidedly like The Flash this week as the team dealt with two metahumans and brought one on as a permanent addition to the team. Whether that’s a good or a bad thing for the long-term prospects of the show, this week was blast from top to bottom.
*  *  *
Part of the reason The CW is able to get away with having so many comic book shows is because they’re so different; Arrow is the crime show, The Flash is the superpower show, Legends is about time travel, Supergirl is a rom-com. And while, in practical terms, adding a metahuman to the team doesn’t turn Arrow into Flash — Laurel had her Canary Cry courtesy of Cisco Ramon — it blurs the line quite a bit. Throw David/Ragman into the mix (the show makes a distinction between metahumans and magic users, which David is, but it’s just a technicality) and… well, we’ll see. The season finale may end with an awfully high body count if they decide the two shows are too similar now.
*  *  *
Maybe the way they plan to steer clear of Flash territory is by Felicity getting back into hacktivism. She makes a big deal about how “I haven’t done a good ol’ grab government secrets kind of hack in a really long time and it feels awesome,” and poor fashion choices aside (though, arguably, her college-era black hair is every bit as cute as her hacker handle), the Pandora data cache looks like it’s pushing both her and the show in an X-File-y, Blindspot-y direction. We may not have seen the last of Kojo (Kacey Rohl).
*  *  *
*Show of hands: How many people thought they’d pull a bait and switch on us and, instead of Tina, they’d somehow have Kojo (aka Felicity, Jr.) brought onto the team as the new Black Canary?

*Also, Helix is the name of a group of child supervillains in the comics continuity. Considering Kojo’s youngish demeanor and the fact that the episode’s press release referred to her as an “unknown adversary”, maybe there’s something more sinister at play here? We can only hope, because Rohl was an absolute delight for the few moments she was on screen.
*  *  *
*Not only is this not Steve Bacic’s first DC rodeo — he played the Dark Archer on Smallville — he’s also one of a select few to play heroes in both Marvel and DC properties. He is Hank McCoy, The Beast, in X2. For the record, though his supervillain moniker is never used, Sonus is also known as Discord, one of Black Canary’s foes in the comics.

Edited February 4, 2017 by tv echo

[LeighAn]

From skim reading the reviews it seems like in general the reviewers range from ambivalence about Tinah to active dislike. I think only Craig and IGN actually enjoyed Tinah and gave her a glowing review- coincidence?

[ohjoy]

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

For some reason, this reviewer thinks Ragman's name is David...

‘Arrow’ Recap: The New Black Canary and the Return of Goth Felicity?
Robert Chan   February 2, 2017
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/arrow-recap-the-new-black-canary-and-the-return-of-goth-felicity-154353898.html

Wasn't "David" the name of the character the actor played on Blindspot?

[Starfish35]

9 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

Wasn't "David" the name of the character the actor played on Blindspot?

Yes it was.

[Belinea]

12 hours ago, LeighAn said:

From skim reading the reviews it seems like in general the reviewers range from ambivalence about Tinah to active dislike. I think only Craig and IGN actually enjoyed Tinah and gave her a glowing review- coincidence?

It bugs me in a way that everyone and their mother was like 'No replacement BC - how dare you do this to LL' 'Oh she is DD!- Now we're cool' 'What do you mean, what about LL,  I never said anything'  'This is comics and I loved it because she is a comic book character'.

Some people seem to be still upset about LL and KC but many changed their tune after the name reveal, so for most it wasn't even about LL or BC but about the fact that it had to be a comic book character being BC.

[theOAfc]

44 minutes ago, Belinea said:

It bugs me in a way that everyone and their mother was like 'No replacement BC - how dare you do this to LL' 'Oh she is DD!- Now we're cool' 'What do you mean, what about LL,  I never said anything'  'This is comics and I loved it because she is a comic book character'.

Some people seem to be still upset about LL and KC but many changed their tune after the name reveal, so for most it wasn't even about LL or BC but about the fact that it had to be a comic book character being BC.

I always said ,majority(not all) of Laurel fans were never really fans of the character they watched but rather a bunch of passionate comic purists who felt like they had to support the character purely because of the name(which is why she suddenly gained fans after she put on the mask and officially became BC). They are  the kind of fans that if you give them shit to eat and you name it "Black Canary" they will thank you and believe that its the best thing ever. Basically they are the worst kind of viewers considering how blind they are and how their blind love/hate has nothing to do with the actual show but rather with a thing they loved reading during childhood or whatever. They project their love for the comic book character into the character of the show which is why they are so easy to ignore show canon and stick to their comic canon when talking about the actual show. 

Their replies whenever someone uses argumesnts to call them out on their delusional ideas are always "go read the actual comics" and this shows  everything you need to know about their "quality" critical thinking. 

 

Its funny because i see more and more olicity fans drop the show once they no longer enjoy it than comic purists who have been whining non stop since olicity became a thing. Those will never drop the show and will always call themselves real arrow fans,even though the real fans of the show,the ones that embraced or loved it because of what they watched on their screen and not because they had to in order to prove their loyalty to their favorite comic books, keep dropping it. 

[tv echo]

14 hours ago, LeighAn said:

From skim reading the reviews it seems like in general the reviewers range from ambivalence about Tinah to active dislike. I think only Craig and IGN actually enjoyed Tinah and gave her a glowing review- coincidence?

That's my general impression also, although I haven't checked the diehard comics sites (which probably love her).

[LeighAn]

1 hour ago, Belinea said:

It bugs me in a way that everyone and their mother was like 'No replacement BC - how dare you do this to LL' 'Oh she is DD!- Now we're cool' 'What do you mean, what about LL,  I never said anything'  'This is comics and I loved it because she is a comic book character'.

Some people seem to be still upset about LL and KC but many changed their tune after the name reveal, so for most it wasn't even about LL or BC but about the fact that it had to be a comic book character being BC

I think people were receptive of Tinah and frankly it's easy to get a receptive response when you are a two dimensional character lacking depth but saying bad ass line and kicking ass. But I don't think she is in fan favourite territory or even across the road from the gate to the 100 yard driveway of the front door of fan favourite terrority.

Lets see how well she goes when she gets too female, and weeps too much, or questions or undermines Oliver or doesn't bow down in praise at his feet, or has any type of emotional human reaction to anything that goes beyond the two dimensional bad girl who kicks ass with no depth or personality type. 

I think the comic dude bros will go after her maybe not to the same level as Felicity but they still turn on her because:

Ew girl cooties. Stupid wimins dragging down and emasculating my male penis Hero! 

Comic dude bros might be okay with Tinah and Oliver hooking up- but actual romance; serious adult relationship type building storylines and complex emotions they will HATE. Just like they hated canon Lauriver before Olicity took the scene. 

I mean looking at the Rebirth GA/BC romance it's basically sex scene panels and Dinah telling Oliver how wonderful he is and agreeing with everything he says and does.

Which is fine on a comic medium which us minute shallow and fluid story Tibits over a series of weeks/months/years. But you can't sustain that in a drama television show which has actual three dimensional human beings that need to be relatable too audiences beyond teenage boys. 

If Tinah stays two dimensional hot girl then yeah she'll work for the comic dudebros 18-49 but actual intelligent veiwers who watch for story and character, the kind that write reviews that the writers and the network read, the kind that make up a not so insignificant portion of the audience, won't blindly embrace her based on a name.

And that's how I interpreted a lot of the reviews. They enjoyed her even liked her but most were wondering what the point was to her character, what purpose she serves or why the need to explore a character that has already been explored on the show before. 

Avd I can't speak for the Arrow writers or the CW but I assume they were hoping for more then a "I don't get it?" reaction from the reviews. 

[Featherhat]

I guess the nam must be all that matter so many purists because Tinah doesn't exactly have the "correct" version of the comics backstory does she? Neither did Laurel come to that. Sara didn't/doesn't either but she had Syn and was kick ass *AND* complicated at the same time, had the correct surname but the first name threw some into a tizzy. If KC hadn't allegedly kicked up a legal fuss about not being BC I guess they could have made her Dinah Sara Lance. It's not like they used DLL as LL's name very much at all until she put the costume on. But I guess that started when Arrow was all "what no we aren't a superhero/comic book show!" We're a dark and gritty adult action show, thank you very much, like TDK!"

31 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

 

Avd I can't speak for the Arrow writers or the CW but I assume they were hoping for more then a "I don't get it?" reaction from the reviews.

Probably (and better ratings) but as mentioned before the EPs seem curiously muted about her compared to the noobs at the beginning of the season. No interviews or articles about their amazing new BC and how bashert she was etc. Either they're trying to introduce her under the radar so as not to piss of various sections of the fanbase and holding off bigging her up until they've made her a SR or not (would be a first) or they *really* didn't want a BC, it's all WB mandated and they don't give enough of a stuff to plug her that much.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Featherhat

[LeighAn]

Maybe they thought Black Canary would speak for herself given the comic legacy which makes the lack of buzz kind of hilariously ironic. 

[tv echo]

Flashback Sunday - here's some old EP/CW interviews that give some background on Arrow...

From 2012:
http://www.blastr.com/2012/02/the_cws_green_arrow_will.php
http://www.greenarrowtv.com/interview-marc-guggenheim-unlocks-the-secrets-connections-in-arrow/
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=41446
http://nerdist.com/the-cws-arrow-takes-aim-at-our-expectations/

From 2013:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNfUCpnByN4

From 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpoC1GhMAP8

From 2016:
http://collider.com/arrow-season-5-wendy-mericle-interview/
http://www.vulture.com/2016/08/dc-comics-greg-berlanti-c-v-r.html

Edited February 5, 2017 by tv echo