The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[tv echo]

EW reviewer gave 617 a grade of C+...

Arrow recap: 'Brothers in Arms'
CHANCELLOR AGARD April 05, 2018 AT 11:05 PM EDT
http://ew.com/recap/arrow-season-6-episode-17/

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Wow, what an intense but very weird episode.

Honestly, let’s just dive right into tonight’s main event: Oliver and Diggle’s big fight. In tonight’s episode, Oliver finally tells Diggle that he’s not giving the hood back to him. Diggle’s not an idiot, so he knew this was coming, but he’s still bummed out. Actually, he’s unsually bummed about it. Everyone, including Diggle, is surprised by how sad he seems over the fact that he won’t be the Green Arrow. Lyla points out that Diggle owes it to himself and to Oliver to figure out why he’s reacting this way since a title and uniform never used to mean anything to him.
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Look, I’ll say this about the big fight scene: It was well-acted. Stephen Amell and David Ramsay did some of their best work on the series, and you could feel the tension in the room growing as Diggle aired out his complaints about Oliver running the team. Even though the actual dialogue didn’t hold any actual water, it still hurt hearing Diggle tell Oliver he leaves a trail of bodies, and Oliver bringing up Diggle’s brother. However, the fight makes no sense and feels like it came out of nowhere. I can’t remember a time when Diggle has really questioned any of the decisions Oliver has made this season. He may have spoken up a tiny bit, but never enough to actually change Oliver’s mind. I’ll admit that Diggle probably does have a point about Oliver’s attention being split, but to be fair, he’s been focused on Cayden James and now Diaz in both his role as mayor and the Green Arrow. Honestly, this fight makes very little sense and feels like the show is prioritizing plot over character. It needed to drum up some drama, so it came up with this half-baked disagreement to get there....
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When Oliver and Diggle return to the bunker, Diggle says he still stands by part of what he said about Oliver’s recent leadership skills. Sure, Oliver may have become a better man in recent years, but he’s become a worse leader and that’s why Diggle has chosen to leave the team. Does this development feel even remotely earned? No, it doesn’t. Effectively blowing a core relationship on a TV show takes strong, thoughtful, and careful writing, but that’s not what we got here.
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... Laurel, who is still working for Diaz, started studying the Real Laurel’s old law books and came up with a way for Diaz to counter Oliver’s move. Captain Hill and the D.A. hold a press conference and call for Oliver’s impeachment because he tried to obstruct justice by firing them. (The episode ends with Laurel and Diaz making out, because Arrow remembered it’s a CW show and hadn’t brought the sexy in quite some time. Although, the sexy it gives us feels very random.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

A.V. Club gave 617 a grade of B...

Diggle goes out to get some air, and with it, some clarity for Arrow
Allison Shoemaker   April 6, 2018
https://tv.avclub.com/diggle-goes-out-to-get-some-air-and-with-it-some-clar-1825037693

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The “why does everyone around you die” trope, which sometimes takes the form of “why does everyone I love die,” is pretty musty. “Brothers in Arms” isn’t the first time Arrow has dipped into that well, and it won’t be the last. But what this episode has in spades is something other recent episodes have lacked, give or take a scene or two: a sense of history. When “Brothers in Arms” works — and it often does — it’s because of John Diggle and Oliver Queen. David Ramsey and Stephen Amell take that tired old trope and make it work, because that trail of bodies is one that the founders of Team Arrow have seen, and sometimes made, together. In this episode, two men who consider themselves brothers come to blows, and two actors get a chance to dig pretty damn deep.
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... Arrow’s sixth season has been pretty uneven, with major plot lines bungled and a mid-arc villain switch that threw the whole series off-balance. There have been highlights, too, and the season's finest moment so far has a few things in common with the centerpiece scene in “Brothers in Arms.” First, there’s a sense of stillness as Oliver and Diggle square off. That stillness exists in nearly all their scenes together, actually, but it’s most prevalent in the big one, and not just because it’s then shattered by their brawl. Second, it’s shot in a style that’s thoughtful and, for Arrow, downright calm, and that simplicity and attention to framing acts as a sort of flag for the scene. It tells us that what’s happening is of great importance — a big moment for not just the episode or the season, but the show. And third, it carries with it the show’s history, going back to the very first episode.

To be fair, not all of it works, but even the minor stumbles feel oddly honest. Oliver’s jab about Diggle’s brother, like Digg’s line about William, is a really low blow, but it’s also pretty rich coming from a guy who has seen the majority of his family and a pretty high percentage of loved ones die in front of him, often as a result (indirectly or otherwise) of his actions. It feels like the kind of thing one person says to another because he knows exactly how much it will hurt. Amell’s delivery puts the seal on that: while Ramsey lets Diggle’s line-crossing accusation explode out of him, Amell takes his time. That’s a calculation. He chooses to say it, and he does so icily, after a moment of silence. When considered as a part of the show’s history, it may not work, but when you think of it as a purely character-driven moment, as one huge beat in a life-changing argument, it fits perfectly.

... It’s a scene that works because the actors know the people they’re playing so well — Ramsey in particular is terrific, playing the scene as thought Diggle wants to make Oliver understand, rather than simply trying to win an argument — and because the events that lead it up to it so efficiently escalate the tension. It’s easy to play these conflicts as though everyone involved is just hankering for a fight, but here, the writers, as well as Amell and Ramsey, make sure this is a story of two people who are trying really hard to make sure this doesn’t end badly. That it does end badly doesn’t make the struggle less compelling.
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... Watching Katie Cassidy play “Bad Laurel” is still a pleasure, if only because she seems to be having so much fun, but the whole dynamic feels both played out and more than a little gross. The battle for the soul of Not-Laurel has been going on for so long now without going anywhere that all the reversals are predictable, and the show seems to have completely abandoned even the most meager acknowledgments that Quention[sic] shoving a stranger into his dead daughter’s life is deeply messed up. And if we could just declare an outright moratorium on the use of the word “daddy” when it comes to this storyline, that would be terrific.
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Felicity mostly just stands around looking uncomfortable in this episode, but the scene in which she dresses both Oliver and John down was terrific. I particularly liked when Emily Bett Rickards sort of bent over to stare John down as she passed him on the stairs.

There was one particularly impressive shot in the big final battle, in which we went from Oliver’s fight to John’s in one uninterrupted, cleverly maneuvered take. Nice to see some clear, comprehensible fight stuff after last week’s mess.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow Season 6 Episode 17 Review: “Brothers in Arms” 
Chris King  April 6, 2018
http://www.tvovermind.com/the-cw/arrow/arrow-season-6-episode-17-review-brothers-in-arms

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More effective than the points being made by Dig in that scene, though, are the performances being given by Stephen Amell and David Ramsey, who do a fantastic job of elevating the frustrating and, at times, downright perplexing material they’re given. Amell and Ramsey have always been strong performers, so this shouldn’t be a surprise to longtime viewers. Their chemistry is a major reason why the Oliver/Diggle friendship has become an essential component of Arrow‘s DNA, and whether Oliver and Diggle are having a heart-to-heart or battling against each other like they do in “Brothers in Arms,” Amell and Ramsey always light up the screen when they share it together.

The two actors provide an energy and intensity that’s only replicated in Amell’s scenes with Emily Bett Rickards and, on occasion, Willa Holland, and during tonight’s hour, that intensity comes through the fiery yet measured anger that builds between Oliver and Diggle with each word they say to one another. You can feel the rich, complex history of Oliver and Diggle as Amell and Ramsey deliver each line; these are two men who don’t want to hurt each other but know exactly what to say to torture one another in the worst way. When Diggle mentions the “trail of bodies” Oliver has left behind, he knows that he’s reigniting Oliver’s guilt over Tommy, Moira, and Laurel, the guilt that he spent so much of Season 5 trying to recover from. Diggle knows it’s the absolute worst thing he can say to his best friend right now, and that’s why Oliver counters by bringing up John’s greatest regret, the sin that caused him to retire from Team Arrow and re-enlist: his killing of Andy. The fight between Oliver and Diggle is brutal and messy and that’s before the fists start flying. I just wish it had been founded on something honest and real. Instead, it’s the latest example of Arrow putting the needs of the plot over the authenticity of its characters, a problem that has reared its ugly head way too many times throughout the back half of Season 6.

John Diggle is the Arrow writers’ latest plot-over-character casualty, following their assassination of the Newbies. After spending so much of last season and Season 6 supporting and encouraging Oliver, Diggle suddenly has a crisis of conscience, insisting that Oliver is putting his own needs over those of the city. Is this the same John Diggle who told Oliver Queen to pursue Felicity Smoak and married them just this past fall? Is this the same John Diggle that helped Oliver Queen realize both the importance and joy of being a parent? Is this the same John Diggle that helped repair Oliver Queen’s broken spirit after Prometheus nearly destroyed him last year? Is this the same John Diggle that helped convince Oliver Queen that he was the hero Star City deserved just last season? Because it sure as hell doesn’t feel like it to me, and that’s a shame because, along with Oliver and Felicity, John Diggle is the heart and soul of Arrow.

To compromise Diggle’s character is to compromise the show as a whole, and for what reason? What’s the endgame here? To have Oliver be desperate and isolated again? We’ve been there and done that, except in the past, characters have actually had valid reasons to be upset with him. In Season 6, though, the writers are letting the plot dictate everything; they want Oliver to feel weak, alone, and helpless as Diaz continues to control every aspect of Star City. But we’ve been here before, just last season with Adrian Chase, and it was a thousands times more effective because it was a personal journey of growth and redemption for Oliver. In Season 6, however, there’s no compelling arc. It boils down to one, simple fact: all of Oliver’s teammates are being childish, immature, and selfish. If they all really had Star City’s best interest at heart, they would be coming together, using all resources available, to stop Diaz. Instead, they are letting petty disagreements push them down different paths, paths that won’t lead to any type of resolution until Team Arrow fully reunites.

But at this point, if you’re Oliver, why would you want that? Why would you want to be surrounded by a group of individuals who does nothing but second-guesses your every move, a group that is always there to tell you what you did wrong but never there to cheer you on when you make the right call? I know I wouldn’t want to be around the likes of Curtis, Rene, and even Diggle right now, and I certainly don’t want to watch any of them on my TV. The majority of Arrow‘s characters have become unrecognizable and unlikable shells of their former selves, and that’s a way bigger problem than whatever Diaz, Black Siren, and Anatoly are cooking up. We’ve got six episodes left in Season 6. Fix this, Arrow writers.
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- Best unintentional laugh of the night: When the DA tells Oliver that he’s never faced a threat like Diaz before. Right…because Diaz is a more dangerous foe than Slade Wilson, Adrian Chase, Malcolm Merlyn, Damien Darhk, and Ra’s al Ghul. Go home, Arrow. You’re drunk.
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- "I wish I knew what this was, Lyla.” Even Diggle doesn’t know why he’s questioning Oliver’s leadership. It’s called plot over character, Dig, and unfortunately, you’re this week’s victim.
- “Don’t be all ‘Oliver Queen’ on me now.” This has been your weekly reminder about why Curtis is the worst.
- “She’s right.” “She usually is.” Even when they’re fighting, at least Oliver and Diggle can still agree that Felicity is the best.

Edited April 7, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

ARROW: "BROTHERS IN ARMS" REVIEW
BY JESSE SCHEEDEN / 5 APR 2018
http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/04/06/arrow-brothers-in-arms-review

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Fortunately, it became clear that Diggle’s covetous behavior was actually a symptom of a deeper and more fundamental problem. He doesn’t trust Oliver’s judgment anymore, and repressing all those feelings has only caused them to resurface as violent anger. In the end, this episode justified the rift between Ollie and Diggle better than I would have expected. Diggle’s rage and detachment felt authentic, both because of his dialogue with Ollie and the way David Ramsey sold that anger. This was easily Ramsey’s strongest episode in a long time.

At the same time, the writers also managed to establish a clear point of view for Ollie. We understand why he can’t give up the hood (as much as I wish the show had done more with his retirement from the superhero life). We also understand how his faith in Diggle was shaken after learning about his drug addiction and why he maybe isn’t so receptive to complaints about battle strategy right now. As common as the “hero vs. hero” trope has become in superhero stories, it’s all too rare for these conflicts to feel organic and for both sides to have equally compelling points of view. For once, that wasn’t a problem.

This storyline culminated in what’s easily one of the best moments of Season 6 to date (low bar, I know). Ollie and Diggle’s fist fight wasn’t that impressive from a choreography perspective. It was basically like watching the final battle in Rocky V. But emotionally, each one of those punches hit home in a real way. Diggle has been one of the few constants in Ollie’s life as he’s faced one horrible challenge after another. They’ve become brothers, and seeing them lose that connection hit home in a way little else has this season. We’re about as deep now into Season 6 as we were in Season 5 when the ultra-grim “Kapiushon” came along, and this episode connects on a similar level. Though judging from the trailer for next week, Ollie hasn’t quite hit rock bottom yet.
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If only things were going so well for the season’s other big villain, Black Siren. This episode only perpetuated the problem Laurel has been having for months. Clearly we’re supposed to sympathize with Laurel as she’s torn between her villainous roots and the promise of the better life Quentin is offering her. But there’s really not much incentive to root for her redemption. She’s still backstabbing her father, collusing[sic] with Diaz and showing no tangible sign that she’s progressing as a character. We’ve seen plenty of reformed villain storylines in the Arrowverse, and I won’t necessarily mind if the takeaway from Black Siren’s arc this season is that some people can’t be saved. But we need real progress on that front, one way or the other.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow, ‘Brothers in Arms’: Ollie’s Winning Management Style Costs Him Another Teammate
BY CRAIG WACK · APRIL 6, 2018
http://oohlo.com/2018/04/06/arrow-brothers-in-arms-ollies-winning-management-style-costs-him-another-teammate/

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Sex and the Olicity: Felicity was forced to play mediator between Ollie and Diggle this week, and her stern admonishment of both of them for fighting and trashing the Arrowcave in the process is a high point of the episode.
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Last impressions: Overall this was a solid episode, despite the fact that the show tried to sell the fact that Ollie’s poor team skills are a recent development. Ollie has been lucky that he’s been mostly surrounded by true believers, but sooner or later when they start having ideas of their own, the relationship falls apart. From an overall story perspective, I’m not sure where this increasing isolation for Ollie is going, because while Diaz is on the fringes of it, this bad personnel management is all on Ollie.

[Belinea]

This sums up the storyline perfectly... Felicity is the viewer...

[tv echo]

I don't get it. Dinah can be both BC and a cop. Diggle can be both Spartan and a family man. Why can't Oliver be both GA and mayor?...

Arrow: Boiling Point
By Matt Ross  Thursday, April 5th, 20180 Comments
https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/04/05/arrow-boiling-point

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Tonight was about as good an example that I can remember of two sides presenting their cases on a slow-burning theme that had me thinking pretty deeply.  I’m talking, of course, about the quiet, simmering tension between Ollie and John regarding the Green Arrow mantle.
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I said a long time ago that Ollie needed to make a decision to either be the Mayor of Star City or Green Arrow. Trying to do both is not only difficult, but it’s just plain stupid and leads to more issues. In my opinion, Ollie should have never become mayor if he wanted to be the Green Arrow. He should have flown under the radar in some other job while conducting his Arrow work. Or, he could have chosen to be the mayor and let the team do their thing while he worked to pull the political strings from the inside to help them along. He just shouldn’t have tried to do both.
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Green Arrow and Oliver Queen truly are one and the same…and that’s a problem. He needs to be Green Arrow in order to function—he admits that. It’s like a vital organ to him. This is something I’ve respected, but tonight made me realize that I really might not like that about Ollie. Thinking about it, the hood is more like a form of addiction, as the highest highs are met with crushing lows and lasting problems. This all kind of hit me tonight as hard as the blows Oliver and John were exchanging.
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Actually, my favorite part of the episode came when John told Ollie he was leaving. Not that I was happy to see John go—he’s a favorite of mine. I thought it was a really bittersweet and poignant moment where two friends (now with cool heads) realized they’ve come to philosophical differences and have grown apart. Sometimes when that happens, it means it’s time to move on. While it’s not easy, it needs to happen. A far different response and exit than what Curtis, Dinah and Rene left with.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

‘Arrow’ 6×17 Review: Pull Your Head Out of Your Ass
APRIL 6, 2018  by ALYSSA BARBIERI
http://fangirlish.com/arrow-6x17-review-pull-your-head-out-of-your-ass/

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We’ve seen Arrow fall victim to this out-of-character ridiculousness before. Oliver. Felicity. The show has mishandled them before, among others. But what Arrow has done with John Diggle in “Brother in Arms” goes far beyond that. Because in having Diggle behave the way he did and think the way he did in this episode, it goes against everything that he stands for; it goes against everything that defines his relationship, his brotherhood with Oliver.

From recent interviews, Arrow producers have made it damn clear that the intention this season is to separate Oliver from the people he’s closest with. For whatever stupid reason, I don’t know. It’s more of the same from a show that’s in its sixth season. A show that can’t seem to stop recycling storylines when there are infinite possibilities and stories to explore. Arrow can’t seem to find fresh ideas for its core characters. You know, Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, Quentin. The ones that remain that have been there from the start. It’s always more of the same. Hell, this show can’t even remember to acknowledge those characters. (Where’s Smoak Technologies? I’m still waiting.)

We’ve gotten this whole “Oliver being separated from his loved ones” routine before. It’s outdated. It’s been done. Oliver, as a character, is far beyond this storytelling. In the course of six seasons, Oliver Queen has grown to be an incredible man. He’s not perfect, but the growth that he’s undergone as a man and as a hero has been inspiring. He’s had his missteps, but there’s no denying that Oliver’s growth over these six seasons has been beautiful to watch. And yet this show has the audacity to question his heroism episode after episode with these snide quips about his leadership and holding his past against him. It goes against everything that Oliver’s redemption arc represents. Hell, even Stephen Amell is confused as to why everyone’s mad at Oliver. Line forms behind me, Stephen.
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What John Diggle IS: A kind, honorable, courageous, forgiving man that loves his family (which includes Oliver) with his entire heart. Someone who would die for those he loves without a moment’s hesitation. He’s also an imperfect man that can let his emotions get the best of him, but he knows his heart. And he does the right thing.

What John Diggle IS NOT: Someone that pushes his own insecurities on others. Someone that blames his brother, his best friend, for all of the terrible things that have happened in his life. Someone that would dare hurl painful, brutal words to hurt his brother. He’s not someone that believes that Oliver is a terrible leader. He’s not someone that would walk away from his brother.
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Oliver and Diggle are brothers, first and foremost. No matter what the hell happens on this show in this season or the next or when it inevitably comes to an end, Oliver and Diggle will be brothers. This show started with them. And it will end with them (and Felicity, cause the OGs.)
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- OTA remains the best part of this show.
- OTA is the only reason I’m still watching this show.
- Diggle doesn’t know why he’s upset at Oliver. Of course he doesn’t, because the writers don’t even know why.
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- Am I supposed to find this Diaz guy intimidating? I still don’t.
- “Don’t be all Oliver Queen on me now.” Curtis can kindly stop using Oliver, an actual hero, ‘s name ever again. You wish you were worthy, you peasant.
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- That verbal brawl was an exceptional scene acting wise. Stephen and David killed it. But the writing was garbage and out-of-character.
- “Pull your heads out of your asses.” We all know Felicity is in charge here. Even the boys know.
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“You’ll always have me. I’m not going anywhere,” Felicity says. That is until Arrow decides to force her away from Oliver in another out-of-character, recycled storyline.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow Episode Guide: Season 6, Episode 17 - Brothers In Arms
Starman  April 5, 2018
http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com/2018/04/arrow-episode-guide-season-6-episode-17.html

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The idea of Quentin home-law-schooling Black Siren to the point where she can pass herself off as a lawyer is perhaps the most idiotic development yet in the Black Siren story arc. (Then again, given what a crappy lawyer Laurel was, it might not require much acting or studying.)

Black Siren - apparent career criminal all her life - keeps the name of Ricardo Diaz saved on her cell phone as "Ricardo Diaz".

John's sudden change in attitude does not make one lick of sense. He says it himself in his conversation with Lyla - he has no idea why he is acting the way he is.

Stephen Amell and David Ramsey have given some wonderful, understated performances during their time on Arrow. Then there's their Shatner-esque shouting match in this episode building up to their fight.
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Emily Bett Rickards does a great job going into "mom mode" and reading Oliver and John the riot act when they are fighting.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Huh? Are we watching the same show?...

IT’S GREEN DIGGLE VS. GREEN ARROW IN A FRIENDSHIP-BUSTING EPISODE OF ARROW
Trent Moore April 5, 2018
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/its-green-diggle-vs-green-arrow-in-a-friendship-busting-episode-of-arrow

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If nothing else, you have to respect the storytelling this season on Arrow. You don’t have to actually like it, but there’s no doubt they’re taking this series in some strange, sometimes-clever and certainly surprising directions in its sixth year. There’s no doubt that Oliver is spreading himself too thin, between being mayor; a father; a husband; and a vigilante. Hey, there are only so many hours in the day (and night). Diggle finally lays that fact bare, spurred by Oliver’s decision to not give him back the mantle of Green Arrow after his brief tenure under the hood earlier this season.

Oliver has never been a perfect character, and at times, this show has seemed to positively revel in his failures along the way. As Diggle spit venom at him, calling him out for everything from the death of William’s mother, to the calls he’d made that led Diaz to have such a stranglehold on the city, it was hard to argue with what he was saying. Telling a story that finds your two heroes coming to blows is an old cliche, but “Brothers in Arms” found a natural and surprisingly compelling way there. Diggle’s frustration finally bubbled to the surface, and became even more affecting once he realized what was motivating it.

Diggle believes Oliver is keeping the Green Arrow mantle for selfish reasons, and really, he’s right. Oliver says as much, though it’s still his mantle to keep. Diggle believes the city would be in better hands with a hero who could put his time into the mission (namely, himself), and again, it’s hard to argue with his case. The two have often butted heads and disagreed on tactics, but after six years, Diggle has finally reached a point where he can’t simply be a lieutenant anymore. He wants to save the city his own way, in whatever way that might manifest itself.
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*With Diggle gone, the OG Team Arrow is down to two members: Oliver and Felicity. Stripping away the team has been a theme this season, and as Diggle pointed out, at least some of that can be tracked back to Oliver’s decision-making along the way. With his support system pretty much gone, it’ll be interesting to see where Oliver goes next. He’s flying solo for the first time since the beginning of Season 1, at a time when it’ll take more than one man and a quiver of arrows to fix the problem.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Wow, pessimistic much? ...

DC TV Watch: Did 'Gotham' Just Introduce the Real Joker?
APRIL 06, 2018 12:48pm PT by Sydney Bucksbaum
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/dc-tv-watch-gotham-cameron-monaghan-joker-twin-brother-1100227

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Arrow

The end of OTA | After six years of working side-by-side as the Original Team Arrow, Diggle (David Ramsey) and Oliver (Stephen Amell) broke up their bromance for good. In this week's episode, Diggle realized that everything bad that had happened over the last year with the team breaking up and Diaz's (Kirk Acevedo) rise to power was all because of Oliver's questionable choices. The more Oliver spread himself thin with his marriage, raising his son and becoming the Mayor, the less he could focus on Star City and being the Green Arrow. And with Oliver refusing to give the hood back to Diggle, he finally snapped. The two former best friends said things they'll never be able to take back, blaming each other for all the dead bodies left in their wake. After a knock-down, drag-out fight, Diggle quit Team Arrow. These two men have been in fights before, but never this brutal or cruel. This is definitely a turning point for both of them, and it's one they can't ever go back on. Even if they do become friendly allies again, they'll never be able to get back to the kind of bond or trust they shared before this moment. With the recent season seven renewal, fans will definitely get another year of watching Diggle and Oliver, but it's never going to be the same. Diggle's going to join ARGUS, so he might not even be in the same scenes with Oliver. Hopefully fans enjoyed the OTA scenes while they lasted, because this is truly the last time this dynamic will be seen. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

This show has Lazarus Pits and doppelgängers and flashbacks and hallucinations. How anyone could possibly watch this show and bank on anything being "truly the last time" - LOL.

[tv echo]

Arrow Review: Brothers in Arms (Season 6 Episode 17)
April 6, 2018    Brianna Martinez
https://www.telltaletv.com/2018/04/arrow-review-brothers-in-arms-season-6-episode-17/

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The hits keep coming for the team as Oliver and Diggle face off on Arrow Season 6 Episode 17, “Brothers in Arms,” as the unfounded finger pointing at Oliver continues.

If there is a highlight of the hour though, it’s a moment that’s 6 years in the making.

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Oliver: [the hood] it’s a part of me. It makes me feel like I’m the best version of myself. I feel whole, and I feel complete…

Oliver’s explicit acceptance of who he is and the fact that he’s as much a father, husband, and mayor as he is the Green Arrow is so significant as a show of growth from the days where he was uncertain and unwilling to embrace every side of himself. It’s a heartening, earned moment for Oliver.
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The tense and painful conversation that follows between Oliver and Diggle feels nonsensical in the face of what’s happening. Digg’s points in the argument ring hollow, from the way he frames the newbies’ decision to leave to his questioning Oliver’s leadership.
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What’s troubling is that Diggle acknowledges he is acting unlike himself, even seeking out Lyla’s advice about his issues with Oliver but chooses to double down on the faulty reasoning that unfortunately echoes the newbies’.
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I’m still not clear on what’s at the root of Diggle’s decision to leave, and that feels like a big problem story-wise.
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Felicity’s attempts at diffusing the arguments fail but add to the pain of this breakup.

Because it’s not just Oliver losing out on a best friend and someone he considers a brother, but Felicity as well. It’s OTA that has become heartbreakingly fractured with no real understanding of how to fix things (and what exactly needs to be fixed).

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Natalie Abrams was in Vancouver this week visiting the Supergirl and Flash sets, so Chance Agard took her place in the podcast with Kyle Anderson...

Superhero Insider: Heroes, teams, and time itself are in jeopardy
CHANCELLOR AGARD and NATALIE ABRAMS April 06, 2018 AT 04:05 PM EDT
http://ew.com/tv/2018/04/06/superhero-insider-legends-black-lightning-arrow/

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Arrow ...
While I didn’t care for Oliver (Stephen Amell) and Diggle’s (David Ramsey) fight in this week’s Arrow, I have to give a shout-out to Amell, Ramsey, and director Mark Bunting for their exceptional work on the scene. Amell and Ramsey brought so much to the confrontation, and you could feel how both men were trying their hardest to keep the conversation from turning nasty and failing at it. Furthermore, Bunting shoots it in a way that makes you feel how important this confrontation is, making up for where the script drops the ball because, as I wrote in my recap, the fight feels far from earned. —C.A.

-- Chance said that SA and DR "did some of their best work on the show" in their tense confrontation and ramping up the conflict, but that, at the same time, the "content of the scene made absolutely no sense whatsoever." He did not understand where Diggle's dissatisfaction with Oliver's leadership skills was coming from. Kyle agreed that the show did not do a good job at showing where Diggle's frustration came from and that the show has not shown much of Diggle's "interior life."  They both thought that this sudden escalation seemed to come out of nowhere.

-- Kyle found it "frustrating" that he has no idea where Arrow is headed in its final 4 or 5 episodes and, moreover, that "the real bummer" is that he's not sure that he cares any more. 

-- Chance: "I hope to never see Laurel and Diaz kiss again." He found it "random" and "uncomfortable." Kyle said it was "gross." 

-- Chance said that he's going to miss WH because Thea was his favorite character on the show.

-- Kyle noted that Arrow has been renewed for another season. He also said that if you had told him back then that this show would last seven seasons, he would not have believed you. So he said that it was a "testament to how well these shows have done overall."

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[EmilyBettFan]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

This show has Lazarus Pits and doppelgängers and flashbacks and hallucinations. How anyone could possibly watch this show and bank on anything being "truly the last time" - LOL.

I find that most people who comment or review on these types of sites really haven't watched the show fully. 

[tennisgurl]

Are the writers listening to these reviews? Because what I've gotten from basically everyone, from professional reviews to fans, isnt "oh my god, how tragic and heartbreaking that was!" its "where the hell did this come from and why should we care?" more or less. Not that writers should write their shows based solely on reviews and audience reaction but, if pretty much everyone not only dislikes your big story, but just straight up doesn't get it, you might want to reevaluate some things...

[Primal Slayer]

I'm sure that MG will come out next season saying that they learned their lesson from this season and are course correcting. "It's time for Arrow to get back to being Arrow"

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Hopefully fans enjoyed the OTA scenes while they lasted, because this is truly the last time this dynamic will be seen. 

 

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

This show has Lazarus Pits and doppelgängers and flashbacks and hallucinations. How anyone could possibly watch this show and bank on anything being "truly the last time" - LOL.

I'm sure we will get times with the OTA teaming up together again, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Diggle never goes back to being Oliver's right-hand man.  And that makes me sad.  

[tv echo]

[KenyaJ]

Performer of the Week: Jesus Christ Superstar's Brandon Victor Dixon

By Team TVLine / April 7 2018

HONORABLE MENTION | As Arrow‘s Oliver and Diggle railed at each other like never before, Stephen Amell‘s explosive performance delivered gut punches you couldn’t help but feel at home. He kept things cool and collected to start, as Diggle aired his grievances. “When did all of these just magically become my decisions?” Oliver calmly countered. “I seem to remember you… there… right next to me.” But when Dig attempted to lay bodies at his friend’s feet, the gloves came off. “[Ricardo Diaz] showed up while you were the Green Arrow! You bought drugs from him, John! You funded what he is doing!” bellowed Oliver, accurately. “You put the team at risk by lying. You weren’t 100 percent, and nobody knew it!” The ensuing brawl may have been a draw, but Amell led Oliver to a win in the verbal slugfest.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm sure we will get times with the OTA teaming up together again, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Diggle never goes back to being Oliver's right-hand man.  And that makes me sad.  

That's gonna be Dinah's job in s7. Gotta force her in somewhere and have that comic canon partnership. It truly wouldn't surprise me.

Don't mind me, I'm just bitter. ?

[tv echo]

I just came across this 2017 article (it's new to me), and right now seems like the right time to post it - some of the comments below could apply now...

‘Arrow’: The ABC’s of Original Team Arrow
SEPTEMBER 21, 2017 by ALYSSA BARBIERI
http://fangirlish.com/arrow-abcs-original-team-arrow/

Quote

Looking back at Arrow’s first season, it was a show I enjoyed but always felt there was something missing. Something that made me care. Something that made me care if I missed an episode. Something that made me care if something happened to these characters. But Original Team Arrow changed everything.

Oliver Queen, John Diggle, and Felicity Smoak set the precedent for superhero teams on superhero television as the aforementioned Original Team Arrow, a dynamic that has been magic in its inception and exceptional in its execution. Stephen Amell, David Ramsey, and Emily Bett Rickards created the heart of Arrow with the dynamic between Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity.

While OTA has been lacking in recent history, it doesn’t change the journey that these three characters have traveled together or the many reasons why this dynamic continues to be the heart of this show. There’s so much to love and so much to be thankful for.
*  *  *
When it comes to OTA, the one thing that is far from lacking is action. One of the strengths of OTA is how efficiently they operate as a unit. When it’s the three of them, they understand what their roles are. They know what to do, and what to expect from the others. It’s a trust and a comfort level that makes them virtually unstoppable as a unit.
*  *  *
The beauty of OTA is that it’s not just something that works on paper. OTA is OTA because of Stephen Amell, Emily Bett Rickards, and David Ramsey. Their unique and magical chemistry is what has made OTA what it is: the heart and soul of Arrow. They play off of each other so well, and they’re literal magic to watch. After all, we’ve seen what “no chemistry” looks like on Arrow *cough* Oliver & Laurel *cough*, and it’s not pretty.
*  *  *
The best surprise to ever happen to Arrow was Emily Bett Rickards as Felicity Smoak. Her chemistry with Stephen Amell, and subsequently David Ramsey, ignited the phenomenon we know as Original Team Arrow. As Diggle repeatedly says, Felicity is one of the strongest people in the world. Her wit, bravery, and conviction are just part of what makes Felicity a staple on Arrow and OTA.
*  *  *
These three have been through a lot as a team. Through five years, we’ve seen Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity go from strangers to friends (and for Oliver and Felicity, romantic partners.) There’s so much history here between these three friends, both good and bad. But it’s this journey they’ve traveled together and apart that’s led them to this beautiful dynamic.
*  *  *
Perhaps the most important thing that has made Original Team Arrow the success that it’s been is just how organic the dynamic is between Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity. That natural chemistry between the actors is what has defined the success of this partnership. It just feels like you’re watching real people. You never have to question the dynamic. It’s as natural as a cool summer breeze.
*  *  *
Arrow’s second season was easily its best, and one of the defining aspects of that was the dynamic between Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity. That season thrived off Original Team Arrow as a well-oiled machine as they infused emotion and humor into their scenes and this show. The rest, as they say, is history. So why has Arrow seemingly abandoned that magic? OTA seems to be forgotten on a show that focuses too much on masks and not enough on heart. It’s a damn shame, because you’re wasting magic.

Edited April 7, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

ARROW Review: "Brothers In Arms" Finds Oliver & Diggle At Odds With One Another Like Never Before
Ali Harris   April 6, 2018
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/dc/arrow/arrow-review-brothers-in-arms-finds-oliver-diggle-at-odds-with-one-another-like-never-before-a159373

Quote

Let's start with the obvious: Oliver vs Diggle. For those who aren't aware because you've quit Arrow and have just been reading reviews... wait why are you reading reviews if you don't watch the show? Okay, so basically Diggle feels that Oliver in a way doesn't deserve the mantle of Green Arrow the way he does, especially because he cares more about the city in his eyes. Now, that's all well and good except that it's not. I said this last week in my initial review of Arrow's season 6 so far and I'll say it again, John Diggle does not act this way at all! The writers have done an absolute 360 with his character and not in a good way at all, they've made Diggle this whiny and immature person by taking shots at Oliver for reasons that are even unknown to him till he has a heart-to-heart conversation with his wife, making this all the less compelling. Diggle did raise some good points when confronting Oliver about how he has failed in being Green Arrow but none of them add up to his character or the fact that Diggle is supposed to be the one character that sticks by Oliver because they're basically brothers. It's just so sudden and out of character that they've transformed Diggle into someone who could be so annoying for no good reason at all.

Let's talk about Oliver's side of this. Oliver is mainly right in this nonsense fight primarily because he mentions that Diggle not only put the team at risk when he lied at the start of this season but also that he put himself and the city at risk by funding Ricardo's operation. Now, say what you will about Oliver but he would never do something like that, and yes I know he worked with Ra's Al Ghul at one stage but he was double-crossing him. Diggle was quite literally helping Ricardo's operation financially and when he got called out for it, he doesn't see it as him failing as Green Arrow which is absolutely hypocritical. Oliver also has every right to keep the mantle, he started it and honestly he never really needed Diggle but he trusted him after everything. But... let's move on to our next point.
*  *  *
Let's talk about the acting in this episode, one word I would use is phenomenal by both Stephen Amell and of course David Ramsey. The two of them were spectacular in the verbal fight they had which led to their fight in the cave. I found them arguing to be much more intriguing than them physically fighting especially because I knew the writers wouldn't have Oliver go full out in the fight. Although this story with Diggle is quite stupid, you could really see David Ramsey giving it his all throughout the entire episode, he gave the fight an emotional aspect that it needed badly. Stephen Amell played the role of being confused but also saddened by his friend extremely well, you could see that Oliver is slowly breaking this season which is another interesting factor that I'll speak more about later. Emily Bett Rickard and the rest of the cast were pretty good, nothing too special but I did like seeing Emily play the role of almost a mother to Oliver and Diggle. Overall though just really great acting by Stephen Amell and David Ramsey who raised the bar in their scenes together.

Next we have Ricardo Diaz to talk about from this episode. Honestly just an absolute shame is the way I would describe Diaz this season. For me, Ricardo Diaz is a villain I've been waiting for since about the end of season 2 and now that we finally have him, he is one of the weakest structured villains on this show. Even though I disliked Damien Darhk on Arrow, at least there were some things that made him likeable and even interesting as an individual character. Diaz has not been developed whatsoever this whole season and it's 17 episodes in... that is just awful. ...
*  *  *
... Focusing on the more important part of this point, Dinah Drake was one of the better characters this episode honestly and seeing her interacting with Oliver wasn't annoying for the first time in ages so good job writers..? but also bad job on making her one of the most hated characters on the show when she had potential to be one of the coolest. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by tv echo

[KenyaJ]

Arrow Boss Weighs In on Fan Reaction to OTA vs. NTA, Possible Miscalculation

By Matt Webb Mitovich / April 8 2018

Quote

Assessing the adverse reaction to the infighting, Guggenheim recently told TVLine, “I think if I miscalculated anywhere, it’s probably on the order of not taking into full consideration the fact that while all the arguments may be equal and equally strong, there’s always going to be a love and affection for the original characters that the new characters don’t get a chance to enjoy.

“In crafting these arguments, we were being, I think, very evenhanded. At least we were trying to be,” he added. “But we were not taking into account the familiarity factor.”

That said, Guggenheim — who in addition to developing Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow for the small screen has written comic books, for Marvel and others — stands by the premise of the storyline, citing a well-established pattern in superhero sagas.

“Superheroes having a falling out and fighting amongst each other is one of the most longstanding comic book traditions,” he noted. “Again, this is maybe where we miscalculated, but I always assumed the fans would go along with us in this regard, because it is such a tried-and-true comic book [convention].”

And he still doesn't get it. Yes, the love and affection people have for OTA versus the pre-civil war indifference for NTA is a factor, but no, the arguments are not "equal and equally strong."  "You didn't trust me" is not a valid argument after you've betrayed someone's trust by cutting a plea deal with the FBI or by sharing romantic moments with someone who has tried to kill me. JFC. They're damn right Oliver didn't trust them; they weren't trustworthy at all! I can't believe MG really thinks they both have valid points of view. But he also thought "My baby mama made me keep my son's existence a secret from my fiancée -- what was I supposed to do?" was a valid argument, so par for the course, I guess.

[thegirlsleuth]

I think Guggenheim’s central problem is that he thinks storylines that work in the comics will automatically work on the show.  Either that, or he’s a space alien, because he seems confounded by human emotions and logic. 

[apinknightmare]

It would make me feel a little better to know if in the production process when these storylines were being dreamed up someone said, "You know, maybe we shouldn't build a whole half-season arc around the newbies getting mad about not being trusted when they're actually being untrustworthy?" and Marc just ignored the complaints or if there truly wasn't anyone in the whole lot of them who thought this was a nonsensical bad idea.

[bethy]

What a maroon.

[KenyaJ]

Every time he talks, I feel like I'm being gaslit.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Every time he talks, I feel like I'm being gaslit.

I love that he's even wrong about what they miscalculated. LOL

ETA: Well, partly wrong. I won't ever care as much about the newbies (at this point I don't care about them at all), but that's not this story's biggest problem by a long shot. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by apinknightmare

[tangerine95]

I always knew MG is out of touch but he says something and I'm surprised again just how much lol

I mean isn't it very obvious that fans of a show in it's 6th season are already attached to the main characters and that when you make new characters you already know aren't received well,act antagonistic towards them its not going to be a very even split and most will side with the characters they've liked for 6 seasons.

And I can't believe he thinks the arguments are equal.Pretty sure selling Oliver out is a lot worse than being tracked for a day because Oliver knew one of 3 people is selling him out for sure and was proven.right.Especially on a show where tracking literally has never been a big deal and as recently as season 5 we had Curtis track Felicity be basically laughed off.

Civil war had their infighting between loved characters where the audience really could be torn.They set it up in previous movies and built up to it.They gave the characters actually good arguments on both sides.And thats why it worked.Arrow did none of that.Instead they pit unpopular new characters against popular original characters where one side has much better arguments and is acting mature while the other shows a ridiculous amount of hatred and bitterness and it all happened in one episode with no set up.

MG really sounds like he thinks the audience is a lot dumber than they are and that he can sell anything,change character personalities,retcon previous seasons and the fans won't care.Idk if that's how comic books work but it's definitely not how TV shows do.

[Chaser]

I just don’t get it. I honestly don’t understand how it’s possible to misread something so bady. How you can write a plot line so badly. 

I get that the writers aren’t great, but this whole arc is something else. 

[tv echo]

I guess, that absolutely clueless mindset explains why Diggle was inexplicably defending the newbies' position in the last episode. Ugh.

Edited April 8, 2018 by tv echo

[Belinea]

18 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

I think if I miscalculated anywhere, it’s probably on the order of not taking into full consideration the fact that while all the arguments may be equal and equally strong, there’s always going to be a love and affection for the original characters that the new characters don’t get a chance to enjoy

It sounds like a lot of PR spin. What I get from it is that a) they did understand that people hated the storyline and b) he either truly doesn't get why or he is just deflecting. They just assumed people would say 'Yes, superheroes fight, so while we don't like it, we get it because we have seen Civil War.  Also, I don't need to watch a bad storyline until the end to be able to say it was a bad storyline. I can say that right in the middle of it if I want to do just that. 

I doubt he'd ever come out and say 'We wrote a stupid story that wasn't fleshed out enough with characters people didn't enjoy to begin with but we were winging it and hoping for the best.' But I think it is somewhat weird that he basically talks about something that didn't work before the season is over. Also, he probably should talk very little to begin with. 

[thegirlsleuth]

Also, usually Guggenheim and Stephen only admit problems in the season after the fact—usually when they overcorrect the following season—but it’s interesting that they are admitting now that the season was a disaster. 

[apinknightmare]

So many things in this show have been so tone deaf and awful that I do believe that he could be telling the truth and they just didn't think about how bad the storyline is. But at the same time how can he be telling the truth and no one thought of how bad the storyline is? LOL

[Lady Calypso]

So....MG's statement about the Civil War arc is essentially that he wasn't wrong, but it's the audience's fault for not opening up for NTA and that it worked in the comics. 

That's basically how I read his statement. 

[Morrigan2575]

24 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I think Guggenheim’s central problem is that he thinks storylines that work in the comics will automatically work on the show.  Either that, or he’s a space alien, because he seems confounded by human emotions and logic. 

I disagree, i think this storyline would have worked with 2 changes. One being characters involved. If this was OTA vs Roy/Thea/Laurel (ok that's a reach for me) or Roy/Thea/Noob,  it would have worked because people cared about those characters.  The other problem is the arguments involved were NOT equal. I don't know what they intended but, THEY made the Noobs look like petulant brats and THEY made the Noobs cross a HUGE line in 614.

I think the storyline could have worked with either of those changes and would have succeeded with both but, they really screwed the pooch on this one.

While it's great that all parties involved have recognized and admitted to the screw up (DR, SA, MG). I dont think this form of damage control is going to work. I don't know how they rehabilitate the Noobs. They should cut their losses but, I don't think they will.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

I need GB to step in and fix this mess. 

[KenyaJ]

7 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

So many things in this show have been so tone deaf and awful that I do believe that he could be telling the truth and they just didn't think about how bad the storyline is. But at the same time how can he be telling the truth and no one thought of how bad the storyline is? LOL

Not only that, but it's hard to believe none of the writers realized how unlikeable, petulant, and petty NTA was after the split. Did they really expect the audience to nod along every time they trashtalked Oliver?

Quote

I need GB to step in and fix this mess. 

Jesus couldn't fix this mess, at this point.

Edited April 8, 2018 by KenyaJ

[doesntworkonwood]

So I've been revising for my exams the past few weeks, and one of the best methods of checking whether you understand the material in a way that makes sense is to say it out loud. It's a good way to figure out if you know what you're talking about, or if you only think you know what your talking about when in reality you are actually just chatting shit. 

Someone needs to teach MG and all of the other writers this technique. I feel like so many of the problems this season could have been sorted out by saying 'Dinah hides a secret from the team. Dinah is angry that the team doesn't trust her,' or 'Rene agrees to testify against Oliver in a federal investigation. Rene is angry that the team don't trust him'. Or, my favourite, 'Diggle is mad at Oliver because...ermmm... he saw in an alien induced dream that he was the Green Arrow.'

I feel like if they just had someone in the writers room who's sole reason is to parrot their cumulative ideas back to the writers, to essentially force them to face their at times nonsensical writing, Arrow would annoy me much, much less. 

[Belinea]

1 minute ago, doesntworkonwood said:

Diggle is mad at Oliver because...ermmm... he saw in an alien induced dream that he was the Green Arrow.'

Don't give them any ideas... ;-)

[JenMD]

29 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I just don’t get it. I honestly don’t understand how it’s possible to misread something so bady. How you can write a plot line so badly. 

At this point, they've had lots and lots of practice.

[way2interested]

5 minutes ago, doesntworkonwood said:

I feel like if they just had someone in the writers room who's sole reason is to parrot their cumulative ideas back to the writers, to essentially force them to face their at times nonsensical writing, Arrow would annoy me much, much less. 

That's the thing though. Many writers rooms do, but at the end of the day you can never guess a reaction months in advance. They might have gone over the reasoning dozens of times and agreed it sounded fine but in actuality doesn't go well with the audience.

The main problem in this case is not only that the newbies were being made out to look worse than they guessed, but that so much of 6b was based on something they couldn't test out before reactions could stop them in future episodes. Reactions in 609 can't quite stop 614 in time, and reactions to 614 can't stop 617, and so on. They wrote themselves into a corner the second they did 609, similarly to what happened back in 408, but even in that case they had enough of a gap to try to soften the blow in 414 (not successfully obviously, but still there).

[Morrigan2575]

39 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I just don’t get it. I honestly don’t understand how it’s possible to misread something so bady. How you can write a plot line so badly. 

I get that the writers aren’t great, but this whole arc is something else. 

I get it. I really do because, the failure wasn't the overall story, the failure was in the execution. I can see how that wouldn't be obvious when you're working episode to episode, sort of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

I'm not excusing it but, I can see how they wouldn't catch how much the Noobs were hated until it was way to late to correct.

[doesntworkonwood]

8 minutes ago, way2interested said:

That's the thing though. Many writers rooms do, but at the end of the day you can never guess a reaction months in advance. They might have gone over the reasoning dozens of times and agreed it sounded fine but in actuality doesn't go well with the audience.

The main problem in this case is not only that the newbies were being made out to look worse than they guessed, but that so much of 6b was based on something they couldn't test out before reactions could stop them in future episodes. Reactions in 609 can't quite stop 614 in time, and reactions to 614 can't stop 617, and so on. They wrote themselves into a corner the second they did 609, similarly to what happened back in 408, but even in that case they had enough of a gap to try to soften the blow in 414 (not successfully obviously, but still there).

Ehh, whilst I agree with you that they did write themselves in a corner, people have been complaining about the story line and taking Oliver's side since 609 aired (in December), but they're still having Curtis make snarky comments about Oliver in the most recent episode (617). Some of it is writing themselves in a corner (though tbh I don't see how they couldn't see how badly this story line could go considering the fact that people were actually quite worried about the story line even before it aired), and some of it is definitely being either obtuse, or disregarding fan reaction entirely. 

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not excusing it but, I can see how they wouldn't catch how much the Noobs were hated until it was way to late to correct

The thing I find funny about this is that then, possibly without even thinking about it, they just wrote the newbies as petulant in episodes afterwards, as if something subconsciously was telling them that the newbies were more of the children in the situation, even if they figured they were children with a point.

[Belinea]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

they figured they were children with a point.

This doesn't change anything, hoss!!! ;-)

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, doesntworkonwood said:

people have been complaining about the story line and taking Oliver's side since 609 aired (in December), but they're still having Curtis make snarky comments about Oliver in the most recent episode (617).

609's not the best marker to judge full reaction to a storyline they barely started, plus the most reaction I saw (this isn't definite, but just making the point of who's "reactions" are the ones they are seeing, the ones I saw or yours?)after 609 was people complaining that Oliver was going to be seen as completely wrong, which they already knew they weren't doing, and they couldn't take remarks in 617 out because at that point they already leaned too much into this in 614. It would have been at that point out of character for them not to do it.

 

5 minutes ago, doesntworkonwood said:

though tbh I don't see how they couldn't see how badly this story line could go considering the fact that people were actually quite worried about the story line even before it aired), 

and so the writers are supposed to write towards people's reactions of things they haven't seen yet or know what's going to happen?

[Chaser]

5 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I get it. I really do because, the failure wasn't the overall story, the failure was in the execution. I can see how that wouldn't be obvious when you're working episode to episode, sort of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

I'm not excusing it but, I can see how they wouldn't catch how much the Noobs were hated until it was way to late to correct.

I would give them more of a pass if the writing wasn’t so blatantly contradictory. I mean Dinah is lying to the team and then yelling about not being trusted in the same episode. The same writers. How do they miss that? 

[Belinea]

Somehow they always repeat their mistakes in a way. They always tell and never show. If we had some scenes with Rene and his daughter, maybe we'd care more but she is always a means to an end and never actually relevant until it is remembered that she could be used for the plot. They believe that we understand a father's love for his child therefore we rarely have to see their dynamic. But maybe a viewer needs to see it in order to understand his motivations. Maybe that's just me but I wish they'd care a little more about the details instead of always going for the shocking element. I still am interested in knowing how everyone survived the islands exactly but that is a detail best forgotten.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Belinea