tv echo October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 FYI, Craig & Tatiana watch the Arrow episodes unspoiled... Agents of GEEK Podcast Episode 48 Craig Wack & Tatiana Torres 10/20/2016http://agentsofgeekpodcast.com/wordpress/ -- Craig said that Arrow has gone back to its roots and "found its fun again." However, he also said that this week's episode was "more of the same" in that Oliver doesn't trust his team (again) and needed a speech from Felicity to give him "a swift kick in the ass" to get him to go in the direction he needed to go (again). Tatiana agreed that Arrow has found its way again and enjoyed this episode. -- Tatiana noted that when Felicity is emotional now, it has nothing to do with Oliver but with something related to her own agency. Craig noted that Ragman seems to be the most well-adjusted of the new recruits ("He's very even-tempered" and "such a nice guy") and that, if circumstances were different, he would probably get along with Felicity very well. But as it is, she is so wracked with guilt and he is a daily reminder of her greatest failure. They liked that Felicity told Ragman in this one episode, rather than dragging it out over multiple episodes. Tatiana was surprised that Felicity didn't talk it out with Oliver because they still have a very strong bond. -- Tatiana is very excited to see Quentin act as Deputy Mayor and thinks he'll "thrive" in that role. -- One of Tatiana's favorite parts of this episode: "No one f**king mentioned Laurel." Craig said: "We have officially moved on from Laurel." -- Craig really likes the "possibility" of this new team. He thought the show "took a big risk" this season, but that it was paying off. -- Tatiana blamed Barry for Diggle's problems. They were both glad that Lyla wasn't erased by Barry and that she was still with Diggle. -- Craig pointed out how "meta" a lot of SA-related things were in this episode. Tatiana thought that SA was probably more in control if behind-the-scenes stuff this season. 1 Link to comment
tv echo October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 (edited) ?!! ... Arrow asks us to trust it, with increasingly good reason By Alasdair Wilkins Oct 19, 2016 http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/arrow-asks-us-trust-it-increasingly-good-reason-244505 Quote Felicity telling Rory the truth about Havenrock is a good move, if only because it doesn’t drag out a whole lot of Felicity angst—which I honestly don’t mind that much, but I’m keenly aware of how fragile Felicity’s spot is in the eyes of fans. I’m not at all sure where we go from here, especially since Rory feels so ill-defined beyond “A nice guy, a bit like Barry Allen maybe,” but let’s just keep things moving, I say. Edited October 22, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
CabotCove October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 Quote Craig really likes the "possibility" of this new team. He thought the show "took a big risk" this season, but that it was paying off. ? Link to comment
tv echo October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 This reviewer noted 13 instances where someone had to trust someone else (and whether it backfired) in 503... 13 Times 'Arrow' Dealt with Issues of Trust Meredith Jacobs October 20, 2016http://www.buddytv.com/articles/arrow/13-times-arrow-dealt-with-issu-61752.aspx - Detective Malone Trusted That Luring the Green Arrow in with a Fake Radio Call Wouldn't End with an Arrow in Him - Oliver Thought Thea Could Handle the Fallout of Offering Lance the Job of Deputy Mayor - Oliver Trusted the New Recruits Would Listen to Him and Not Hit the Streets - Evelyn Trusted Rene When He Said They Were Just Doing Some Recon - Thea Trusted Susan Williams When She Told Her the Truth About Lance's Appointment - The Medical Examiner Believed the Dead Guy on His Table Was Dead, so He Could Begin His Autopsy - Oliver Believed the Other Recruits for the Bratva Were Innocent Men - Diggle Thought He Could Trust What He Saw with His Own Eyes - Oliver Trusted His Team in the Field Against Sampson and His Men - Oliver Decided the Recruits Were Ready to See the Bunker - Oliver Trusted His Bratva Brothers to Not Kill Him - Oliver Backed Thea's Choice for Deputy Mayor - Felicity Revealed Her Connection to Havenrock to Rory 3 Link to comment
lemotomato October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 (edited) It's too bad that the online reviewers gushing over how much they adore this season aren't Nielsen households. Edited October 22, 2016 by lemotomato 3 Link to comment
tv echo October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 (edited) Arrow Review: A Matter of Trust (Season 5 Episode 3) October 20, 2016 Lissete Lanuza Sáenzhttp://telltaletv.com/2016/10/arrow-review-a-matter-of-trust-season-5-episode-3/ Quote For a moment there, during “A Matter of Trust,” Arrow Season 5 Episode 3, I forgot that this show was close to a hundred episodes. I forgot all that we’ve been through. For a moment there, it was almost like being back at the beginning. And not necessarily in a good way. * * * Is this what I expected of Arrow in Season 5? No. There lies the problem – expectations. The journey of Oliver Queen had been exasperating at times; painful at others, but it had always been a straight line. We could always see where we were going. Now, it’s a topsy-turvy mess with no discernable middle or end. * * * Felicity, on the other hand, Felicity is even more lost than Oliver. She might look like the moral compass, but she’s keeping secrets (the thing that, *gasp* broke them up in the first place), she doesn’t fully trust Oliver anymore, and, more importantly, she seems to have been reduced to what she never was, even when she was introduced. The IT girl. The comic relief. But, she had a moment there. More than one, you’ll say. They’re going to be dealing with the repercussion of what happened in Havenrock. And yes, maybe they are. But their way of dealing with it could have been two conversations with Curtis and Felicity coming clean. And that’s the problem. I don’t know. And I don’t trust the writers to tell Felicity’s story the right way. I’m not even sure I trust them to tell Oliver’s. Edited October 22, 2016 by tv echo 7 Link to comment
Chaser October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 I get annoyed when I see someone say Felicity is back to comic relief. That's something I expect to see from people who aren't fans and who have ignored Felicity's importance. To say she is back to IT Girl, Comic Relief is ignoring the fact that she put this Team together and is leading with Oliver, teaching him along the way. The comic relief is coming from Curtis right now. 19 Link to comment
EmilyBettFan October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 They just can't take she's a woman and that she is right. I know I like Felicity a lot but the fact that some reviewers can blame Felicity for lying when everyone has lied on the show is incredibly hilarious to me because it shows how biased they are towards their favs. 3 Link to comment
looptab October 23, 2016 Share October 23, 2016 7 hours ago, lemotomato said: It's too bad that the online reviewers gushing over how much they adore this season aren't Nielsen households. The funny thing for me is that, if you read season 4's first episodes' reviews, they all said the same things they are saying now. "Arrow is back, they are doing it right" or whatever. I mean, I'm enjoying the new season, and I'm glad critics are as well, but don't write as if the show hasn't seen good days since season 2, because you all appreciated S4a(no 408). Very few critics bother to take all things into account. 18 Link to comment
way2interested October 23, 2016 Share October 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, looptab said: The funny thing for me is that, if you read season 4's first episodes' reviews, they all said the same things they are saying now. "Arrow is back, they are doing it right" or whatever. I mean, I'm enjoying the new season, and I'm glad critics are as well, but don't write as if the show hasn't seen good days since season 2, because you all appreciated S4a(no 408). Very few critics bother to take all things into account. Not to mention there were even some parts in 4b that they liked (like SA's and EBR's scenes together in 410-411 and Felicity's subplot with her dad in 412-413, but still scenes that happened within this year itself), and, not to completely stick up for SA's comments here, s2 wasn't the superhero show perfection that people pretend it to be. The odd balance of short-term memory mixed with long-term grudges is such a mystery to me. 10 Link to comment
dtissagirl October 23, 2016 Share October 23, 2016 S5 premiered here this week, and I caught a promo on the WB that had show footage mixed with cast interviews from SDCC. That promo isn't online, but they actually posted the full interview video on YT. Hopefully this works outside of Brazil? 1 Link to comment
apinknightmare October 23, 2016 Share October 23, 2016 Look at our BFF Suzanne Gomez lurking in the back there, haha. 3 Link to comment
tv echo October 24, 2016 Share October 24, 2016 (edited) Felicity Smoak Is The Real Hero Of 'Arrow' & Shouldn't Be Pushed Aside By CAITLYN CALLEGARI Oct 9, 2016https://www.bustle.com/articles/188578-felicity-smoak-is-the-real-hero-of-arrow-shouldnt-be-pushed-aside Quote Before the Arrow season premiere aired, my back was already up about the impending treatment of the unmasked hero, Felicity Smoak. Not just because she was practically MIA from all of the Arrow Season 5 teaser trailers or that interview after interview from the showrunners and executive producers suddenly tried to diminish her role in Oliver Queen's life after four years of highlighting its importance. Even star Stephen Amell said at San Diego Comic Con that, "Oliver's most important relationship in the entire show is his relationship with Star City," making it seem like Felicity barely mattered. Then there was the indirect insinuation that Felicity was responsible for the death of the people of Havenrock, as if she had detonated Damien Dahrk's nuke herself, rather than try to direct the already detonated bomb to an area where it could do the least damage possible. Basically, everyone has been pushing aside Felicity, but they should all take a step back and remember that Felicity is the real hero of Arrow. If the show doesn't soon acknowledge just how important Felicity is to the Green Arrow, Oliver Queen, and Star City, it'd be going against four seasons worth of episodes that say otherwise. Felicity is not just a hero in the sense that she barely sleeps in order to keep the people of Star City safe. She's a hero also in that the balance of the show rests on her shoulders, as both David Ramsey, who plays John Diggle, and showrunner Marc Guggenheim have outright admitted themselves. Case in point, Ramsey told Variety, ...Arrow can become very brooding and dark very quickly. I always joke that thank god Felicity came in the first season so it wasn’t just Diggle and Oliver hanging around the Foundry brooding — you need some of that lightness... And, in 2014, Guggenheim explained to BuzzFeed that, "We discovered that the show needed an element that we didn’t realize it needed, and that was this levity — this other point of view for Oliver. And it really opened the show up." As a fan of Arrow, I am fiercely protective of Felicity and the fact that she's a character who should be given the respect she deserves, especially in a genre that strives to undermine her because of her gender. Her heroism really does go beyond the practical aspect of the behind-the-scenes workings of the show. Here are just 11 reasons why Felicity Smoak is a hero and shouldn't be pushed aside any longer: ... (read more) 1. Oliver Needs Her, And He's Said As Much 2. The Flash Needs Her, Too, And He Isn't Even On Her Show 3. She's A Constant Source Of Inspiration 4. She Defeated The Biggest Bad Arrow Has Seen To Date 5. She Was The One Who Wanted To Return To The Vigilante Life To Help Thea, Laurel, And Star City 6. She Isn't Afraid To Lay Down The Law 7. Or Make Executive Decisions 8. And She Goes Toe To Toe With The Green Arrow Without Flinching 9. She Has Something Even Oliver Doesn't Have: A Superpower 10. She Does Things Every Episode That Scare Her 11. She's The Reason Oliver Beat The Defeated Damien Dahrk Once And For All Edited October 25, 2016 by tv echo 13 Link to comment
SmallScreenDiva October 24, 2016 Share October 24, 2016 I'm pretty sure I don't "need" to do anything. Especially with these boobs. 3 Link to comment
tv echo October 24, 2016 Share October 24, 2016 (edited) Here's the 2014 BuzzFeed article that's mentioned in the above 2016 Bustle article... How "Arrow" Finally Got Superhero Television Right Oct. 8, 2014 Kate Aurthurhttps://www.buzzfeed.com/kateaurthur/how-arrow-finally-got-superhero-television-right?utm_term=.luYdpx3vD#.pvg7yWEXA Quote Arrow has done well since its series premiere. But it still had to get its sea legs. The show began with lots of action, of course, but it also featured some unwelcome soapy elements, as Oliver landed back in Starling City in the middle of a love triangle with his ex-girlfriend Laurel Lance (Katie Cassidy) and best friend Tommy Merlyn (Colin Donnell). And critics weren’t sure yet what Amell was doing. “I remember reading a lot of reviews, some of which were saying, ‘The actor playing Oliver Queen is stiff,’” Amell said. “And in my head, I was, like, I’m not stiff! He’s stiff!” What was working better than Oliver trying to find his way back into his emotional life — with his mother, Moira (Susanna Thompson), and sister, Thea (Willa Holland), as well — was Oliver the “dark purveyor of justice,” as Kreisberg put it. He literally had a list and was taking names, exacting revenge on villain after villain (some of whom were familiar from the comics) — and killing a lot of people. As Season 1 began, with critics and fans weighing in, the writers realized the show’s strengths. As a result, Berlanti said, “We got to pull back on some of the relationship drama.” Yet no matter how brooding a superhero is, he does need friends. John Diggle (David Ramsey), Oliver’s bodyguard, soon realized his charge’s secret, and began to help. But more important, the writers created — completely by accident — the character of Felicity Smoak for Arrow’s third episode, and cast Emily Bett Rickards to play her. It was just a brief role for an IT person, stemming from story necessity. But it ended up changing the show. “Andrew Kreisberg, Greg Berlanti, and I, we all come from the same school of writing, which is very quippy and bantery and funny,” said Guggenheim. “Basically, we designed a show we couldn’t write. The voice of the characters is completely opposite to our voices as writers. Oliver doesn’t talk that much! Dig is a man of few words. It’s a very dark show.” Exhausted from work, Kreisberg and Guggenheim, who were writing the episode, used their own voice to create an ancillary character. “That turned out to be Felicity,” Guggenheim said. Rickards’ Felicity was a scene-stealer from the jump — and she’s that exact nerdy, smart, appealing person a portion of the audience wants to imagine as its stand-in. Her chemistry with Amell was obvious as well (Google “Olicity fanfiction” if you dare). “We discovered that the show needed an element that we didn’t realize it needed, and that was this levity — this other point of view for Oliver,” Guggenheim said. “And it really opened the show up.” Edited October 24, 2016 by tv echo 3 Link to comment
BkWurm1 October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 5 hours ago, tv echo said: Felicity Smoak Is The Real Hero Of 'Arrow' & Shouldn't Be Pushed Aside By CAITLYN CALLEGARI Oct 9, 2016https://www.bustle.com/articles/188578-felicity-smoak-is-the-real-hero-of-arrow-shouldnt-be-pushed-aside 1. Oliver Needs Her, And He's Said As Much 2. The Flash Needs Her, Too, And He Isn't Even On Her Show 3. She's A Constant Source Of Inspiration 4. She Defeated The Biggest Bad Arrow Has Seen To Date 5. She Was The One Who Wanted To Return To The Vigilante Life To Help Thea, Laurel, And Star City 6. She Isn't Afraid To Lay Down The Law 7. Or Make Executive Decisions 8. And She Goes Toe To Toe With The Green Arrow Without Flinching 9. She Has Something Even Oliver Doesn't Have: A Superpower 10. She Does Things Every Episode That Scare Her 11. She's The Reason Oliver Beat The Defeated Damien Dahrk Once And For All Wish I could up vote this article so many more times. I went to the website just to make sure they got my clicks of support. 6 Link to comment
Starfish35 October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 Matt Mitovich didn't care for tonight's episode. Quote I was not a fan of this episode. It felt 90 minutes long. I “get” what it was trying to do, but I don’t think it was done terribly well. And there is just something about the new collection of recruits that hasn’t “clicked” for me yet, not enough that I am greatly invested in their need to “belong,” to “succeed.” And certainly not as a ragtag, questionably attired group operating independent of their seasoned leader. http://tvline.com/2016/10/26/arrow-recap-season-5-episode-4-diggle-prison-escape/ 4 Link to comment
tv echo October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) Arrow is done leaving people behind By Alasdair Wilkins Oct 26, 2016http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/arrow-done-leaving-people-behind-244913 Quote Oliver’s absence is another clever storytelling decision here, as Arrow gets an opportunity to define the rest of Star City’s heroes and villains while letting Oliver save his best friend. This is the sort of side quest Oliver should be going on, and while it’s fair to question his specific motivations—he was awful quick to suggest Diggle should get back to work as Spartan—the fact that he’s not allowing John to abandon his son out of misplaced guilt gives him a pretty good claim to the moral high ground. “Penance” strikes a fine balance in how much time they give to Felicity’s objections, with frankly hilarious reveal that she thought having the team confront Oliver would accomplish… anything. Arrow respects the idea that Oliver has become the most powerful fighter (without powers) in its universe, and it’s only right that he drops all three recruits without trouble. The highlight of the scene comes when Oliver realizes just what his team is saying, as Stephen Amell puts in an unmistakable hint of menace to his response. In that moment, we realize just how much Oliver holds back with his more humane approach to crime-fighting. He’s always going to be the killer those five years away made him, and it remains a conscious choice for him not to be that person. His team aren’t about to unleash the killer, but they realize fast just much they have pushed their luck. * * * Everything else about “Penance” just works. We get various moments of emotional uncertainty from Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, and Rory, yet they all feel well-motivated and all are resolved quickly enough that they don’t cross over into angst. Neither Oliver nor Felicity is necessarily wrong in how they feel about the plan to break Diggle out of prison, nor is Diggle entirely wrong for not wanting to leave… but yeah, they’re all kind of wrong, and Arrow now trusts us enough to present those complexities and just keep the story moving. Felicity and Rory’s storyline also doesn’t outstay its welcome, as Rory continues to rocket up the Team Arrow sidekick rankings with his quick realization that both he and Felicity need to find a way to move past their grief. Edited October 27, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) Arrow S5: E4 – 'Penance' By Robert Dougherty October 27, 2016 09:05AM EDThttp://www.themovienetwork.com/review/arrow-s5-e4-penance Quote Despite Felicity's valid points about Dig being a fugitive for the rest of his life if he escapes, that doesn't overshadow how she doesn't want to save a man she considered her brother, or at least it won't to her critics and a lot of other fans. No one even suggests they should try and clear his name instead, including Felicity, making it look like she's okay with just leaving him in jail both before and after she learns it was his choice. Even if that's not how the writers see it, they are making it far too easy for her haters to read it that way, just as they've made it way too easy for them to have more fodder throughout 2016. If they can't even take 10 seconds for Felicity to suggest trying to find another way to protect him or clear him, or to suggest doing anything else besides a prison break and besides just letting him stay in jail, it speaks to a lack of respect about the formerly valued Diggle-Felicity relationship, if not a formerly valued Felicity. Considering what Arrow does take time on these days, they really can't say they don't have room to fit more considerate stuff like that in. The show uses another old standby of Felicity criticizing Oliver for taking someone else's choice away as well. But when that choice is to let someone stay in jail and rot for their sins, especially Dig, it kind of doesn't apply as much this time. There are other deeper reasons for her objection of course, but it is clear they have little interest in defining them further, at least not as much as they really owe it to her to do so. Havenrock PTSD is the easy get-out-of-jail free answer for such behavior, but considering how Felicity's guilt this week really revolves around Rory staying away from the team because of her, that speaks to the writers' priorities in focusing on her character. * * * When Rory describes the discarded items he makes into art as a "bunch of castoffs", it certainly sums up Oliver's current mission with Team Arrow 2.0 well, and the need to fulfill his family's legacy is certainly Oliver-esque too. To his additional credit, Rory's inability to be around Felicity doesn't mean he doesn't understand her impossible choice, despite what it cost him. In fact, once Rory does come back, they seem set to try and be each other's support systems through their guilt, not their painful reminders. If this does get Felicity an actual new friend through all this, it may have a little bit of redeeming value. But if this is really the end game after all the set up about Felicity's PTSD and guilt, then it is yet another case of a pointless Felicity subplot without enough worthwhile payoff to make it worth the hassle. Yet considering that Felicity's new boyfriend is most likely another symptom of her spiral, maybe settling that is the next stage of her recovery. Either way, Felicity and Rory's shared trauma is settled and brushed aside pretty quickly, for the sake of getting Rory into action more than for Felicity's sake. Likewise, Diggle's trauma over his own act of murder is starting to heal pretty quickly too, and like Felicity, it isn't because there's a clearer focus on his recovery either. * * *Penance is supposed to be the first step towards Felicity and Diggle's recovery, it would seem. Yet since it isn't really about their own pain and turmoil at all, and is more about outside forces, plot and action demands and other characters in both cases, it hardly feels like the right sign that the show will pay its own penance in full either. Edited October 27, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) ‘Arrow’ Recap: “Penance” — Prison Break BY KAYTI BURT October 26, 2016http://collider.com/arrow-recap-penance/ Quote When Lyla comes to Oliver looking for help breaking her stubborn husband out of prison, Oliver agrees because a) making decisions for other people is one of Oliver’s absolute favorite things, b) he is still trying to make up for that time he kidnapped Lyla and left Baby Sara and/or Baby John Jr. alone in her and/or his crib, and c) prison is a stupid place for Diggle to be when he could be part of Oliver’s awesome vigilante team. (That’s a basic paraphrasing of Oliver’s “You Should Come Away With Me Out of This Prison” speech.) Because this is Arrow and we already did the “John Is So Angry At Oliver” thing, Diggle quickly sees the error of his ways and leaves prison for a life on the run, launching a new chapter of the Team Arrow story. It’s good to have Diggle back, but I still wish we never had this Diggle subplot that never really made much sense. Presumably, it will come up again later in the season (any bets that Tobias Church is somehow connected), but, for now, Diggle’s man-on-the-run status takes what is arguably Arrow’s most normal character away from his normalcy. At least Diggle and Lyla’s new HIVE home-away-home offers more space than that time Lyla and Sara were living in the back of a constantly-moving van. Oh, Arrow, how I love you. * * * In what continues to be a surprisingly affecting storyline, Rory struggles with his role on Team Arrow after learning the truth about Felicity’s role in Havenrock’s destruction last episode. In one of the best scenes of the episode, Felicity shows up at Rory’s art studio, to convince him to rejoin the team, unleashing one of her many superpowers: the pep talk. “We just both want the same thing,” Felicity tells Rory, “to be able to live with what has happened, so we can move forward.” Story of this show, man. But really. I was impressed with the degree to which Arrow was able to double down on one of its main, seemingly beaten-to-death themes in “Penance”: the exploration of how our pasts shape us, the exploration of how we change and how we don’t change. ... Oliver tells Diggle: “I guess I haven’t changed that much, either. I guess that’s what I have to do my penance for.” A startlingly insightful moment for Oliver Queen and for this show. The kind of statement that has much greater resonance in season five, after we’ve lived through four seasons of Oliver making the same mistakes with varying degrees of self-awareness. Oliver’s evolution hasn’t been in whether he is killing this season or not, but rather in his ability to own up to his own actions and to process his own trauma. Arrow sometimes gets away from these more internal missions, but is arguably at its strongest when Oliver is facing them head on. * * * ... Oliver is still driven, he is a killer, and he will do anything to fulfill a promise to someone he cares about — whether that promise is explicit, as is the case with Taiana, or implicit, as is the case with Diggle and Oliver’s friendship. Perhaps Oliver’s path to salvation doesn’t just lie in Oliver changing all of the bad things about himself, but rather recognizing all of the good things that have been there all along. Because, when it comes down to it, this man is a hero. A whiny, self-sacrificing dude of a man, but someone who gets up and tries to make his city a better place on a daily basis. Like, it’s his only hobby. * * * Obligatory reminder that no one on Team Arrow seems to have an actual job. Where do they get their money? And does Team Arrow pay the new recruits? I’m not saying I want a whole episode just focused on Team Arrow budget meetings (OK, fine, I would love that), but I am saying that solidifying how Team Arrow finances its operations might go a long way in grounding a story that started out as a tale of income inequality and corruption in the wealthiest of Starling City’s residents. Edited October 27, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) Arrow Review: The Team Divides to Turn Up the Heat BY CRAIG WACK · OCTOBER 27, 2016http://oohlo.com/2016/10/27/arrow-review-team-divides-to-turn-up-the-heat/ Quote With Ollie’s relationship with his new charges running hot and cold, Felicity has been the glue holding this new team together and this time she’s stepped up and offered leadership. * * * Outnumbered and outgunned, the team has to leave Wild Dog behind and make their escape. Despite the operation seeming like a complete disaster, it was a success in one aspect. Breaking Diggle out of prison gave Oliver a little more perspective, and the team’s willing sacrifice to help save the city didn’t go unnoticed or unappreciated. Of course that respect was expressed not by what Ollie said, but by what he didn’t say. After making a well-timed entrance back to the cave, there was no anger or lecture – the only focus was on getting Wild Dog back as a team. * * *More episodes like this one will only make this resurgent series stronger. Edited October 27, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) Arrow Season 5 Episode 4 Review: “Penance” Chris King+ October 26, 2016http://www.tvovermind.com/the-cw/arrow/arrow-season-5-episode-4-review-penance Quote .. And even though a lot of the story beats from tonight’s episode feel a little more generic or predictable than they have in the previous three installments of Season 5, the character journeys from this season still remain incredibly compelling. Take Felicity and Rory, whose story best fits the theme of “penance,” as they both try to find ways to forgive themselves for the mistakes they’ve made and the horrors they’ve seen. I can’t commend the Arrow writers enough for how they’ve handled this storyline so far in Season 5. Not only was it refreshing to see Felicity be honest with Rory about her role in what happened to Havenrock so quickly after they first met, but the way that the two of them have been dealing with this difficult situation as individuals and as members of the same team has been fascinating to watch. The creative team behind the show isn’t shortchanging either character, allowing both Felicity and Rory to feel the pain and guilt over what happened, knowing that it’s something that the two of them will live with for the rest of their lives. When Rory looks at Felicity, he doesn’t blame her, but he’s reminded of what he lost on that tragic day; meanwhile, every time she seems him, the guilt and pain that she tried to bury at the end of last season rises to the surface, almost suffocating her. However, both Rory and Felicity are mature enough to understand the complexity of the situation, that neither one of them is wrong for feeling the way that they do, and that the only true culprit behind the horrible loss of life in Havenrock was Damien Darhk. With that mutual understanding, they’re able to move forward together to create a new legacy as part of Team Arrow, as part of a group that only wants to save lives, not take them away. Arrow is a show that has relied on distrust and lies to create contrived drama way too much in the past, with characters keeping secrets from each other for reasons that were very hard to believe, but with Felicity and Rory’s relationship, the CW series is proving that, like its characters, it’s become more thoughtful and reflective and can handle these situations in a more mature and satisfying way. Unfortunately, while tonight’s Arrow dedicates a good portion of its time to dealing with Felicity and Rory’s conflict, it fails to properly explore Diggle’s mindset. While last week’s episode perfectly illustrated that John is still haunted by the fact that he killed his own brother, this week’s installment barely lets us see his change of heart. ... However, one very quick conversation with Oliver changes Diggle’s mindset in “Penance,” as Ollie tells John that he can find redemption as Spartan in Star City, not as a criminal rotting in his cell. Oliver’s words here are genuine, and it’s easy to see how and why they would appeal to Diggle, but Arrow barely gives John and the audience time to process Oliver’s argument before he’s agreeing with his friend and former teammate. Oliver and Diggle’s conversation inside his cell is over and done with so quickly that the pace of the scene almost robs it completely of its emotion.... * * * There’s a lot of great shots throughout “Penance,” and the CGI work throughout the episode is pretty strong as well, particularly in Oliver and Diggle’s rescue scene, as they shoot up to Lyla’s plane, a la The Dark Knight. However, my favorite frame from the entire hour has to be the blood dripping down from Rene onto his hockey mask, which lies on the floor. It’s not wholly original or anything, but it’s incredibly striking image that’s been stuck in my mind ever since I finished watching the episode. Edited October 27, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
lemotomato October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 11 hours ago, Starfish35 said: Matt Mitovich didn't care for tonight's episode. Quote I was not a fan of this episode. It felt 90 minutes long. I “get” what it was trying to do, but I don’t think it was done terribly well. And there is just something about the new collection of recruits that hasn’t “clicked” for me yet, not enough that I am greatly invested in their need to “belong,” to “succeed.” And certainly not as a ragtag, questionably attired group operating independent of their seasoned leader. http://tvline.com/2016/10/26/arrow-recap-season-5-episode-4-diggle-prison-escape/ I don't necessarily disagree, but he needs to ease up on the quotation marks. Has he always been doing recaps for Arrow, or is this a new thing? Link to comment
tv echo October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) Arrow recap: 'Penance' BY SARA NETZLEY Posted October 26 2016 — 11:38 PM EDThttp://www.ew.com/recap/arrow-season-5-episode-4 Quote How do we atone for our wrongdoings? Is it selfish to let guilt guide us, when doing so makes life harder for the people around us? And just how drunk do you have to be to get tossed into a Russian jail? * * * Then he busts out the anti-molecular compound that’s rumored to eat through anything… And okay, I have questions. How does it stay in the bottle if it eats through everything? How does it not eat through their lungs when they breathe? Do they know how far it spreads? Wasn’t Oliver worried about keeping it in a bag he carried on his back? So many questions! * * * So D.A. Chase grew up thinking vigilantes only did horrible things, but he’s reevaluating that now. While I’m curious about his childhood, I still don’t trust him. Your thoughts? (And yes, I’ve got that 1983 New Teen Titans run in my collection, too, comic readers.) Edited October 27, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
Starfish35 October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) Quote I don't necessarily disagree, but he needs to ease up on the quotation marks. Has he always been doing recaps for Arrow, or is this a new thing? He usually recaps both Arrow and Flash for TVLine, but I think it's usually more just a straight recap, not a review. But he did a whole post last year on the contriveness (is that a word?) of the baby mama drama in last year's crossover, so not always. And yes, I noticed all the quotation marks myself. :) Edited October 27, 2016 by Starfish35 1 Link to comment
tv echo October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) A Diggle jail break, and Wild Dog vs. Tobias Church in the latest episode of Arrow Trent Moore Thu, Oct 27, 2016 12:18amhttp://www.blastr.com/tags/arrow Quote Joe Dinicol’s take on Ragman, aka Rory Regan, continues to be one of the strongest additions to Team Arrow this season. His abilities make him a game changer, and this episode gave us a chance to explore the fall out from Felicity’s confession about making his hometown of Havenrock last week. After deciding he can’t work with Felicity, Rory leaves the team (on good terms), pushing Felicity to reach out to him and try to convince him to return. it’s a poignant moment, and watching these two characters try and help one another through their shared grief is a powerful story. Felicity hasn’t had a whole lot of stories that don’t involve Oliver over the past few years, but this burgeoning friendship is actually looking like something we want to see explored. There’s also the fact that Ragman’s powers continue to be way cooler than expected, and it’s always a treat when he’s on-screen (though it’s really hard to tell the difference in his costume and new archer baddie Prometheus). * * *What on Earth has happened to Diggle this season? Seriously. His decision to stay in prison last week was wildly out of character, because no matter how guilty he may feel about killing his brother (who literally threatened to murder his family if he didn’t pull the trigger), it’s hard to fathom the Diggle we’ve gotten to know over the past four years would willfully choose to stay in prison and not be there for his wife and child. It just never felt true to the character, and what, it only took Oliver to sneak in and give him a 10 second pep talk to realize he was being an idiot? C’mon. It’s great to have him back on the streets — and hopefully he’ll suit back up as Spartan soon — but this entire story feels manufactured just to force Oliver into fielding a new team. Edited October 27, 2016 by tv echo 2 Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) This 504 recap has an online poll on "WHO IS YOUR NEW TEAM ARROW MEMBER?" Currently (out of total 28 votes): Rory/Ragman 71% Evelyn/Artemis 18% Rene/Wild Dog 7% Curtis/Mr. Terrific 4% http://www.buddytv.com/articles/arrow/arrow-recap-the-new-team-takes-61841.aspx Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo 1 Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) Arrow 5×04 Review: Accepting Guilt is Easy, Forgiveness is Harder by ALYSSA BARBIERI October 27, 2016http://fangirlish.com/arrow-5x04-review-accepting-guilt-easy-forgiveness-harder/ Quote Now, we – well, the sane ones – understand that Felicity is not at all responsible. And in case those insane ones didn’t get it, Curtis, Oliver, and even Rory each acknowledged that she was not responsible. But for Rory, it was about being reminded of losing his entire family every time he looked at Felicity. It affected him so much that he quit the team in the beginning. For Felicity, it was about being reminded of what she did – the impossible choice she made – when she looked at Rory. And while they’re both incredibly different, as Felicity acknowledged, both Felicity and Rory were letting themselves be controlled by their inner turmoil. And that wasn’t healthy for anyone. * * * And that’s the thing; John and Felicity both blamed themselves for their respective tragedies. Not only that, they subjected themselves to the pain of the guilt because they felt like they deserved it. But just because you make a mistake or make an impossible decision that saves millions doesn’t mean that it needs to define you. * * * ... We are more than the mistakes we make. We are more than the difficult decisions we make. We are all of the good that we’ve accomplished, as well. * * * Make no mistake, the tragedies that have happened with Diggle and Felicity are tragedies that they will carry with them always. But that doesn’t mean they have to dwell on it. You can’t forget or discredit your past: it defines you. But you can make the decision to move forward and choose to be the hero of your story. And that’s exactly what Diggle and Felicity are going to do this season. * * * It’s definitely an interesting dynamic between Felicity and Rory. While both of them were reminded of what had happened or what they’d done, both of them chose to move forward and let the past remain in the past. After all, they have a city to save. It’s the start of a beautiful friendship. * * * The way Oliver got into character, the way he threatened this man’s family, the way he instinctively snapped the man’s neck after getting the information he needed, it reminded me so much of season one Oliver that it shook me for a moment. I shouldn’t be surprised – I’m not – but it suddenly dawned on me that we’re going to watch Oliver completely break in the flashbacks this season. * * * When it came to breaking Diggle out of prison for a crime he didn’t commit, you’d think everyone would be on board, right? Not necessarily. It’s one of the great things about Arrow is that these characters have their intricacies, their similarities and their differences. It wasn’t a shock to me that Felicity didn’t go along with breaking Diggle out of prison. That didn’t mean she doesn’t love John – there’s no one she loves more next to Oliver. It just meant that her beliefs are different than Oliver and Lyla’s. As we’ve seen in the past, Diggle and Felicity have similar beliefs just as Oliver and Lyla have similar beliefs. Diggle and Felicity go by the book and follow their moral code while Oliver and Lyla live in the grey area where they sometimes have to make decisions not necessarily right, but it doesn’t matter when the stakes are high. This was the perfect example of that. Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo 2 Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) Arrow 5.4 Review – “Penance” October 27, 2016 | Posted by Michael Haigishttp://411mania.com/movies/arrow-5-4-review-penance/ Quote “Penance” is a by-the-numbers episode of Arrow, which is to say not unexciting but also not necessarily consequential. Even the show’s big cliff hanger – that Wild Dog has been taken by Tobias Church – will likely be resolved within the first half hour of next week’s episode, given the pace at which the show has been working this season. With less fireworks than last week, and a more contained, measurable plot, “Penance” was a pleasurable but restrained offering after three weeks of quick work by Arrow. * * * After the mission, Ragman quits the team, citing Felicity’s bombshell from last week (that she was responsible for the tragedy that took his father’s life). This is a prime example of what I think Arrow does not always do well – as I’ll get to, Ragman’s abstinence from Team Arrow lasts approximately thirty minutes of screen time. The show so often throws these head-fake diversions, easy methods of illustrating conflict that are almost universally inconsequential. To be clear, Ragman should obviously feel conflicted working alongside Felicity, just as Felicity’s guilt is a feeling worth exploring. There just has to be another way without a character cheaply disengaging, especially when anybody who has watched Arrow knows with certainty that they will be back. So, Ragman comes back. * * * Diggle believes firmly that he belongs in that prison cell, for reasons beyond the farce that placed him there to begin with. Oliver, being a friend to Diggle and a brother-in-arms, disagrees – and acts accordingly, removing any agency that Diggle has over his own situation. Ragman, similarly, acts (however fleetingly) on his own feelings by leaving Team Arrow. Oliver convinces Felicity to change Ragman’s mind. And, interestingly, when Team Arrow is debating Felicity at the episode’s climax – about whether they should be able to confront Church at the Anti-Crime-Unit without Oliver’s assistance – its Ragman who punctuates his dramatic return with a rhetorical question: “Shouldn’t that be up to us?” The “That” in Ragman’s question is the choice to face death. The failure of this team’s infrastructure aside (I have thoughts there), the question relates to Diggle, and Ragman when he wanted to quit. Why does every choice fall on the shoulders of Oliver? Shouldn’t every character choose the terms on which they face their own guilt, or their own mortality? * * * The answer, of course, is that Oliver is the showstopper, a bona fide superstar, and Team Arrow’s leader. That last point, though, is again undermined when Felicity relents and allows the young crime fighters to pursue Church. Predictably, they fare poorly. Mr. Terrific is knifed in the back, and Wild Dog is left behind to fight Church, which also goes poorly. Wild Dog is left behind, and captured by Church, who vows to break him and leave him for the Green Arrow to find. I said I wouldn’t write about the TEAM this week, but it’s worth mentioning that Oliver has some blind spots as a leader.... Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) Arrow Season 5 Episode 4 Review – ‘Penance’ OCTOBER 27, 2016 BY JESSIE ROBERTSON http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2016/10/arrow-season-5-episode-4-review-penance/ Quote Is anyone thinking rationally this week? Lyla understandably wants her husband and the father of her children out of prison; but with this plan, he’ll only be a fugitive for the rest of his life (unless he’s exonerated). It’s a ludicrous plan and one that would surely spell the end of her career if ever found out; John, on the other hand, only gets a 30 second speech from Oliver, and he’s completely changed his mind on if he should stay or not. I can’t figure this one out at all. And where’s John Jr. during all this? Felicity’s idea to have the still-in-training team stop Oliver was even more boneheaded; he regularly beats them up when trying to teach them; what would make her think this would go any better? And is Curtis ever going to go full-on Terrific and just use tech to get the job done? Fighting is not his strong suit at all. * * * I apologize; it seems I’ve been standing on a soap box this week but when this show starts building positive momentum, you have episodes where logic seems to fly out the window. There were some positives though; seeing Ragman in full team action was cool and gives that ragtag group some power behind it. Wild Dog continues to be a bright spot on the show and the writers seem to recognize that. Tobias Church is sort of fun to watch but he doesn’t have any kind of hook that would make you think he’s any more capable of taking over Star City than Malcolm Merlyn, a trained assassin with a large business and influence for years in Star City, and yet he still failed. I don’t think Oliver’s taken apt time to devote to taking Church down once and for all. Oliver’s flashback was pretty efficient in showing that “Bratva” darkness Oliver still possesses; I mean threatening dude’s family? Then just neck snapping him like Van Damme would? Pretty balls to the wall. And finally, the really strong connection Thea and Quentin are building up; it’s kind of beautiful to watch and you wish we’d get more scenes to show that off. Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) Arrow Review: Penance (Season 5 Episode 4) October 27, 2016 Lissete Lanuza Sáenzhttp://telltaletv.com/2016/10/arrow-review-penance-season-5-episode-4/ Quote At times, while I was watching this episode, I had to make an actual pause and go – who are these people? What show am I watching? Is this Earth-2? Because my Team Arrow was a family, not just a collection of people who inhabited the same place. And in that alternate universe, Felicity might have needed convincing to go after Diggle, but Lyra – her friend – and Oliver – the man who is supposed to know her better than anyone else – would have provided that. In that alternate universe Felicity would have come up with a better plan, one that involved the team, which, of course, would have meant that the newbies weren’t free to go get their asses kicked. * * * Also, in that alternate universe, Thea, the only person left in Star City who is actually capable, would have gone to help the newbies, because my Thea, she wasn’t a robot who was so in denial about who she is that she’d let other people suffer. I miss that alternate universe. Where is it? Can I go back? Maybe I’m not on Earth-2. Maybe THAT is Earth-2. But, if it is, I’ll gladly take the changes. Send me back, please. Send me back. * * *All my sympathy for Wild Dog has disappeared. Wave bye bye. I don’t think it’s ever coming back. Church can keep him. * * * Lyla and Oliver are two peas in a pod. We already knew this. Left to their own devices they won’t really use common sense.That being said, why was Lyla treating Felicity as if she had the plague? They show had led me to believe they were close. Remember when Oliver was in the League of Assasins and Lyla was comforting Felicity? I do. * * *Wild Dog is disrespectful AF, by the way. Felicity has a name. * * * Rory and Felicity’s conversation is, BY FAR, the best part of this episode. BY FAR. I like Rory. He’s my favorite of the newbies. He’s got a compelling story, he’s nice, not useless on the field, and also, he seems to understand that team = family. Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo 3 Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) Waiting for an Entrance: Arrow 5x04 Olicity Heart-to-Heart OCT 27, 2016 Marilyn Porterhttp://www.heroesandheartbreakers.com/blogs/2016/10/arrow-season-5-episode-4-recap Quote We’re still hanging in there, aren’t we Olicity fans? It’s getting more difficult, the longer we go without any sort of encouragement from the promotion around the show. But then we watch an episode and the scenes where Oliver and Felicity face one another are so laden with sexual and romantic tension, that I think “obviously they’re going to get back together.” The promotion and interviews might be bending over backwards to push a “no romance” agenda, but the scenes on our televisions tell a different story. And this week’s episode was no different. * * *I understand why people are losing hope. I get it and I understand. If there weren’t little moments from the show that kept me going, I might lose hope too. I can’t profess to being chock full of hope, but I’m still hanging in there. Because Oliver was about to talk to Felicity about Havenrock. That is something I needed to see. And that look they shared at the end of the episode. I needed to see that too. The next episode will inform a lot. I’m more than a little nervous about it, to be perfectly honest. Let’a all hold hands and get through this together, okay? Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo 4 Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) Arrow “Penance” Review (Season 5, Episode 4) Jessica Breaux October 27, 2016http://www.tvequals.com/2016/10/27/arrow-penance-review-season-5-episode-4/ Quote ... While I do believe that Oliver is correct about prison not being able to provide John with the penance he feels he needs to pay, I don’t believe Oliver was correct to force John’s hand. Communication is key, and instead of trying to talk John into fighting for his own life, he essentially told John ‘I know what’s best for you and you’re going to do what I say.’ He and Lyla didn’t actually give John a chance to work through the situation in his own mind before they forced him to do what they wanted him to do. Sometimes, as a friend, you have to do that. But it should be more of a last resort than your go to method of dealing with your friends. ... Oliver’s inability to accept the fact that his way might not be the only, or even best, way is starting to get really old. It’s one thing for him to be the leader and have the final say in whatever decision the team is trying to make. But it’s a horse of a different color for him to not even consider anyone else’s thoughts on the matter and to fail to listen to other options at all. That’s pretty much par for the course with Oliver, and that’s the problem. It shows a lack of growth in the character and a failure to learn from his past mistakes. Most of the friction Oliver had with the original Team Arrow was caused by Oliver constantly making decisions for other people that weren’t his to make and failing to consider the fact that someone might have a better idea than his own. Clearly, nothing he’s been through in the past five years has gotten it through his thick head that if he expects his team to respect him, then he needs to respect them too. Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo 1 Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) This reviewer mistakenly refers to Rory as "David"...' ‘Arrow’ Recap: Diggle Breaks Out, Church Breaks In Robert Chan October 27, 2016https://www.yahoo.com/tv/arrow-recap-diggle-breaks-out-church-breaks-in-115746138.html Quote One of the great strengths — and weaknesses — of comic book properties is the speed of an emotional turn. In the real world, when you have one of those friendship-ending feuds and swear to never speak to that person again, it might be years before you even consider meeting, regardless of how silly the feud might be. In comics, though, all it takes is a speech and maybe one of those “Snap out of it!” slaps in the face. It can be jarring — like in the case of David and Felicity — or it can be a relief, as in the case of Diggle in prison. Probably none of us have experienced seeing our entire city and family obliterated by a nuclear missile, but it’s pretty easy to understand David’s feelings, and it strains belief that he would be cool working with the woman who did it after she offers a couple of heartfelt apologies. Diggle may have been a little easier to swallow because we need him back in the Arrow Bunker: Oliver without Diggle is kind of an unrelenting jerk. But comics are a place where evil can be defeated by punching it hard enough; it stands to reason that one perfectly crafted line like, “I’m not saying you shouldn’t do your penance. You probably should. But do it as Spartan,” would overcome any psychological obstacle. * * * *“Anti-molecular compound”? You mean, “acid”? Why not just say “acid”? Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo 2 Link to comment
tv echo October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 (edited) Arrow 5x04 Review: "Penance" (The Avenging Friend) Just About Write October 27, 2016http://www.itsjustaboutwrite.com/2016/10/arrow-5x04-review-penance-avenging.html Quote ... While there were some good moments, the episode ultimately left me more confused than ever as to what this season is trying to accomplish (and no, writers, just by having Felicity say "legacy," you cannot justify your theme). It felt like yet another filler episode and I suppose if the show wants to get the fillers out of the way early in the season, that leaves more time for important episodes later on. Still, I found it really difficult to stay engaged in the episode. Additionally, I'm kind of confused as to what lessons Oliver is supposed to learn this year. Literally the lesson this week for him was: "Go against your friend's wishes because you know better than they do, and it'll all work out." That's exactly what Oliver and Lyla did. I know they were saving Diggle from himself, but also they were directly contradicting what he wanted. It's a fine line because Diggle's health and sanity and character growth were on the line, but also I'm kind of disappointed that the show literally told us that Oliver will just keep doing things for people because he knows best and instead of having any issues, it'll all be peachy in the end. * * * I don't even know what else to say about this storyline because I love Diggle, I really do. I just feel like the show has really rushed the arcs of both him and Felicity in order to get to more plot and stories this season. Arrow knows it already has too much to juggle — focusing on the new recruits, allotting time for Oliver as mayor, Bratva flashbacks, more crossovers, tying up loose ends from last season, and giving screentime to the bad guys — and unfortunately what seemed to get cut already this year are the dangling threads from last season. I was really hoping we would get a chance to see Diggle really process what happened, or that we would at least see him more in action. * * * So let's briefly talk about the other character whose story from last season gets pretty quickly wrapped up: Felicity. What I will say right off the bat is how irked I am by the fact that Felicity's story — this huge, guilt-inducing, life-altering story — not only got brushed aside as a "moral of the week," but that it was used in order to prop up a new male character. Felicity couldn't even have her own story about guilt; it had to be shared with Rory. And in some ways, I guess I can sort of understand why the two are paired up: they're both suffering from the same event, but in different ways. I did enjoy the end of the episode because it established the fact that people who are feeling guilt need other people to hold them accountable. We can't navigate our guilt by ourselves because when we try, we drown. The problem, of course, arises not from the fact that Felicity needs to lean on someone during this time but that her guilt is not her own. It is used to prop up Rory's tragedy, and HIS story of his father ends up becoming the focus, not Felicity's. If you doubt that, think about what Felicity did toward the end of the episode — she researched Rory's father and learned about his life and his sacrifices. In the end, Felicity's potentially interesting and dark arc (one of the first that she's had apart from a storyline with Oliver) is reduced to a plot point in a male character's story. Edited October 28, 2016 by tv echo 6 Link to comment
BkWurm1 October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 8 hours ago, tv echo said: If you doubt that, think about what Felicity did toward the end of the episode — she researched Rory's father and learned about his life and his sacrifices. In the end, Felicity's potentially interesting and dark arc (one of the first that she's had apart from a storyline with Oliver) is reduced to a plot point in a male character's story. This. The most I think we'll ever see again of this storyline is what Felicity decides to do to channel some of her guilt apart from the team. Whatever or whenever that may be. Link to comment
apinknightmare October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 IDK, I thought Felicity looking up Rory's father was part of the healing process, and I wouldn't brush it off as only a plot point in Rory's arc. The fact of the matter is that what happened in Havenrock DID affect other people, and IMO watching Felicity deal with THAT is a big part of the process. Without coming face-to-face with a victim, how is she supposed to deal with it in a way that doesn't devolve into self-pity and a string of speeches by lots of people telling her it wasn't her fault? Would I have liked more lead up? Yeah. Would I like more time spent on it? Yep. But I think that facing the consequences of something that you were "responsible" for (because yes, DD set off the nukes, but she felt responsible for the lives taken), and reading about and learning about the people whose lives were lost that day, and then facing someone who was affected by it and reaching out to build a bridge takes tremendous strength of character. And honestly, I'm not sure how else I would've expected her to deal with it. I'd like to see some lasting effects with maybe some hesitance in her decision-making or something, going forward. I won't be surprised if this is the end Spoiler (although I thought something was supposed to happen next ep?) , but I hope it's not. 9 Link to comment
BkWurm1 October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 19 minutes ago, apinknightmare said: IDK, I thought Felicity looking up Rory's father was part of the healing process, and I wouldn't brush it off as only a plot point in Rory's arc. The fact of the matter is that what happened in Havenrock DID affect other people, and IMO watching Felicity deal with THAT is a big part of the process. Without coming face-to-face with a victim, how is she supposed to deal with it in a way that doesn't devolve into self-pity and a string of speeches by lots of people telling her it wasn't her fault? Would I have liked more lead up? Yeah. Would I like more time spent on it? Yep. But I think that facing the consequences of something that you were "responsible" for (because yes, DD set off the nukes, but she felt responsible for the lives taken), and reading about and learning about the people whose lives were lost that day, and then facing someone who was affected by it and reaching out to build a bridge takes tremendous strength of character. And honestly, I'm not sure how else I would've expected her to deal with it. I'd like to see some lasting effects with maybe some hesitance in her decision-making or something, going forward. I won't be surprised if this is the end Reveal hidden contents (although I thought something was supposed to happen next ep?) , but I hope it's not. I think the problem isn't so much this episode but that she didn't get enough of a PoV on it going back to right after it happened. They kept promising they'd handle it but it's too little too late to be fully satisfying. I try to judge this stuff on a curve though and for Arrow, it could have been so much worse. 1 Link to comment
apinknightmare October 28, 2016 Share October 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said: I think the problem isn't so much this episode but that she didn't get enough of a PoV on it going back to right after it happened. They kept promising they'd handle it but it's too little too late to be fully satisfying. I try to judge this stuff on a curve though and for Arrow, it could have been so much worse. I guess I'm just not sure of how else it should be handled? What more of her POV should there be? It wasn't like she purposely chose Havenrock to drop a nuke on, she put the coordinates in the doohickey, and that was that. It's a little rushed, but I don't think this particular storyline would be well-served by her beating herself up over something that we've been arguing all summer isn't her fault. The reviewer mentioned a "potentially dark arc" and I'm not sure how they would've gone there and stayed even remotely true to Felicity's character and what happened. She took responsibility, and is taking steps to make it right in the only way she can. The whole nuclear bomb plot should've been thrown straight into the garbage, but I feel like they humanized it very well. 1 Link to comment
Guest October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 I think they've handled the Havenrock arc pretty well (and I hope it's not the end of it) but I would have liked to see how it affected Felicity more. Maybe just where she told someone how she doesn't sleep much or that she spends time researching the people who died. Something. Anything. IDK. But until Rory came into the picture, Felicity was acting like everything was totally normal so IDK if she was all that affected after all. But how are we supposed to know that if they don't let her express herself? It's a bit frustrating. Link to comment
BkWurm1 October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, apinknightmare said: I guess I'm just not sure of how else it should be handled? What more of her POV should there be? It wasn't like she purposely chose Havenrock to drop a nuke on, she put the coordinates in the doohickey, and that was that. It's a little rushed, but I don't think this particular storyline would be well-served by her beating herself up over something that we've been arguing all summer isn't her fault. The reviewer mentioned a "potentially dark arc" and I'm not sure how they would've gone there and stayed even remotely true to Felicity's character and what happened. She took responsibility, and is taking steps to make it right in the only way she can. The whole nuclear bomb plot should've been thrown straight into the garbage, but I feel like they humanized it very well. I'm not looking for her to keep beating herself up after so much time has passed but that was my point, that we needed to see her being really affected right when it happened. Ten seconds in the next episode of her looking at a news report before shaking it off and diving into quips wasn't enough. I'm not demanding much, just that it should have been followed up again in that episode and at least a mention in the finale after the dust had settled. Then when the season opened up, perhaps just a moment showing that she's still thinking about it even if it's only in passing. Maybe something as simple like a commemorative item that you know would have popped up after that kind of monumental disaster. Even just a visual clue to let us know she was still figuring out how to cope. Instead it looked like she managed to figure out how to cope a day after it happened and hadn't let it affect her until Rory brought it all up again. I just assume of course it was weighing on her, but how were we supposed to prove that? What about the viewers that need it spelled out in order to believe it? Again, the big thing for me is the timing. We really needed more time spent on it last season. It would have been one thing if she and Lyla had that exchange in the finale episode of the season, but adding those extra episodes after it just muddied the arc. I think some were looking forward to seeing her break, not because they wanted her to fall apart but because it would prove that she'd been struggling with this the whole time and just putting on a good front. I still think that was the case but again, we are left to assume since we didn't get her point of view expressed as she was going through it, only now half a year later. Ultimately I just feel like we know how Felicity probably would react and I guess all of it happened off screen and that's disappointing. Edited October 29, 2016 by BkWurm1 5 Link to comment
apinknightmare October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said: Again, the big thing for me is the timing. We really needed more time spent on it last season. They could have ended the season with the scene she and Lyla had but adding those extra episodes after it just muddied the arc. I agree wholeheartedly. I think the time to set this up was last year - I can't tell if it was typical Arrow oversight due to "time constraints" or if it's something they decided to do over the summer since people complained about it, and that's why there was no setup last year. I guess I just have rock-bottom expectations for pretty much everything, so I'm pretty happy with what we got. I think it's on par with how she'd react at this particular point in time, given that it happened six months ago. Maybe they'll surprise us and there's more? LOL 3 Link to comment
tv echo October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 (edited) Huh? (my reaction to the bolded parts below)... Allison Brennan and Lavinia Kent on ‘Arrow’ episode ‘Penance’: We agree to disagree October 28, 2016 4:16 pmhttp://happyeverafter.usatoday.com/2016/10/28/allison-brennan-lavinia-kent-arrow-recap-season-5-episode-4-penance/ Quote LK: I spent a good part of the night thinking about what I wanted to say about this week’s episode — and never reached a conclusion. This morning I realized it was because I didn’t have strong feelings about it. There were things I really liked about it: the overlapping themes of the storylines (something I am loving about Arrow this season), having Diggle back, some of the quips (calling an Uber), but there were at least an equal number of things that didn’t quite work for me: the Cast of Thousands (Rory is growing on me, but the others … Even Artemis is not developing the way I’d like), the continued lack of chemistry between Oliver and Felicity, the weird combination of super planning (having the jumbo jet ready) and no planning (what happens next) in Diggle’s rescue. * * *AB: When the episode was over, I said to my sons, “This was the best episode of the season to date!” I’m actually surprised you were ambivalent about it. I completely agree about the team dynamics — not loving the team, but I liked it more this week than last. And yes, Rory/Ragman is by far my favorite on the team. I like Artemis’ mask better than the guys on the team, but I agree that she’s developing a little slower than I’d like. But when you have a Cast of Thousands, I suppose that’s to be expected. It didn’t detract from my enjoyment of an episode that had every element I love in Arrow: fast pacing, great choreography, a compelling story and Oliver being a badass Green Arrow. * * * ... As Oliver says to Felicity, “I am going to stop John from making a decision he will come to regret.” Felicity tried to talk him out of it, but Oliver didn’t waver. I liked that. I was getting kind of tired of mother hen, I-know-best Felicity. She was acting like a kindergarten teacher trying to get everyone into line, get everyone to get along, and I really loved that Oliver just stepped up and said, “I’m going to do what I think is right, and you’re not going to say or do anything to stop me.” * * * I am less sure about the Felicity/Oliver interaction. Although, I do think “kindergarten teacher” is a perfect description of her these last weeks, which is probably why I feel the chemistry is lacking between them. * * * ... We’re definitely seeing the old Oliver here (which mostly, I really, really like), the one who is confident that he knows what is right, but I think I want to see just a tiny bit more of last season’s Oliver and the lessons he learned. I do like the grittiness, the willingness to kill if strictly necessary, but I feel like he lost his ability to listen. I would have liked him to really give Felicity a chance to explain her views before just dismissing them. I don’t mind his deciding to do things his way, but I want him to remember the value that others can add. AB: Well, we’ll agree to disagree here, because I was kind of tired of the “listen-to- everyone-and-compromise” Oliver. It made him wishy-washy. I think he HAS learned to work with a team, but HE is in charge, and I like that dynamic. “Doubting Oliver” never worked for me. LK: I completely understand your point and don’t really disagree, but I do think he owed Felicity more attention than he gave her. And I do think that even if she disagreed, she would have helped him in the end. Which just made me realize that I don’t believe she would have sent the team after him. She’s worked so hard to make them a team that I don’t think, even for this, that she would set them against each other. The Felicity I love would have sought another solution and then, if she couldn’t persuade Oliver otherwise, slipped in at the last moment to help. Maybe that’s the core of my issue this year. I am not liking Felicity. She’s been one of my favorites for years, and now she’s just preachy and not as smart as I am used to. * * *AB: ... You mentioned the lack of chemistry between Oliver and Felicity … I know a lot of people love them together and a lot of people don’t like them together. Arrow isn’t a romance at its core, so as long as they act in character, I will be happy either way. Right now, Felicity has the highest level of confidence she’s ever had (hmm, maybe that’s why she’s acting like a preachy, know-it-all, elementary school teacher?), but I think it’s going to bite her in the butt in the near future. Not that she shouldn’t be confident (she’s super smart), but she’s playing with fire — i.e. keeping secrets that she claimed she hated. (Dating the detective.) * * *LK: If I think about it that way — broken trust — it does make the Oliver/Felicity storyline make more sense to me. I am still not all the way there, but I can accept it if they lay a few more pieces to the puzzle. I don’t need Oliver and Felicity together, but I do like the edge of chemistry they’ve always had, and I do miss it. I’ve always loved the hint of wanting what you know you can’t have. Edited October 29, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
Morrigan2575 October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 I have no idea what show they watched this week, my CW affiliate must have aired a different show. 12 Link to comment
Chaser October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 For romance authors, plot needs totally go over their heads. Kind of love that it's on Felicity to come up with this stuff, but she is also a know it all who shouldn't. It's hard to be not as smart and super smart at the same time. 10 Link to comment
quarks October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 To be entirely fair, "DON'T DIE!" is probably something many kindergarten teachers at least think when their classes charge out into the playground. 14 Link to comment
looptab October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 The kindergarten dynamic is what I've been enjoying the most these episodes. They do have a bunch of children to take care of, and I like how they're doing it. 6 Link to comment
tarotx October 29, 2016 Share October 29, 2016 It's more like parents imo. And the no chem thing is just weird. Chem (and the kids) is what's holdng them together. 8 Link to comment
tv echo October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 (edited) Here's jbuffyangel's discussion of the following 504 dialogue (also quoted some comments on the newbies)... Felicity: "How was Palmer Tech? Before you answer, you should consider that your phone has GPS, and if you were thinking about lying, I do admire your consistency."Oliver: "I wasn't thinking of lying to you. I wasn't looping you in after you made it clear you didn't approve of the decision." A ROAD TO HEALING: ARROW 5X04 REVIEW (PENANCE) http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/152540610468/a-road-to-healing-arrow-5x04-review-penance Quote Felicity rarely refers to the cause for their break up in such a pointed and direct way. Everything in Arrow’s promotion has been selling this idea that Oliver and Felicity have worked through their issues. Uh huh. Sure thing guys. They are totally over it. * * * He looks momentarily hurt, then it quickly morphs into frustration. Oliver promised Felicity he would never lie to her again and he feels he’s still honoring that promise, whether she can see it or not. Oliver feels he’s changed, but all Felicity sees is the same old behavior. * * *Oliver believes an omission is different than a lie. For example, he didn’t look Felicity in the eye and tell her he’s not going to steal equipment from Palmer Tech. Nor is he going to lie and say he didn’t steal the tech. Oliver simply excluded Felicity from the details. He didn’t “loop her in” because she didn’t agree with the plan. Oliver sees the two scenarios very differently. One is lying. The other is just doing what he thinks is right. Felicity doesn’t agree with Oliver’s choice. That’s fine. Then he simply won’t make her privy to his choices. * * * Oh sweet Holy Mother of Mary. I need to start saying novenas because I CANNOT WITH YOU OLIVER JONAS QUEEN. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT DESTROYED YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH FELICITY IN THE FIRST PLACE. IF YOU HAVE ANY HOPE OF FIXING THINGS WITH HER YOU NEED TO KNOCK THIS SHIT OFF. * * * Felicity never point blank asked Oliver, “Hey sweetie. Do you have a kid that you’re not telling me about?” Uh… why would she ever ask that? Of course you didn’t lie to her directly about your son, but it wasn’t really necessary BECAUSE WILLIAM NEVER ENTERED THE CONVERSATION. Felicity didn’t even think to think about asking about a kid because she didn’t know a kid existed. * * *A lie of omission is still a lie Oliver. Felicity didn’t point blank ask you, “Are you planning on stealing equipment from Palmer Tech?” That doesn’t mean you didn’t omit the truth from her. Nor does it mean that you are being straight with her about the Palmer Tech plan now and that you didn’t lie before. Oliver believes he has a good reason to omit pertinent information in both scenarios. In both scenarios, Oliver believed he was doing the right thing. Unfortunately, “belief” doesn’t make it true. * * * That’s what partnership means to Felicity, whether she’s talking about Team Arrow or a romantically. She’s always on the “Need To Know” list. The fact that Oliver differs in that area, that he believes he has the right to make decisions for other people and go it alone, is the insurmountable mountain between them that Felicity can’t see how to get around. This is Oliver. This is who he is. She can deal with those ramifications as his partner on Team Arrow. She cannot deal with those ramifications as his wife. * * * Felicity isn’t just angry with Oliver for making decisions for John. She’s still angry with Oliver for making decisions for HER. Oliver didn’t tell her about William. Then, when it came to decide whether or not to send William away, Oliver made that choice without even discussing it with Felicity. * * *It was a decision that impacted her life as well and he left her out of it. Oliver believed he knew best so he simply decided. He reacted with very little thought of the consequences, especially in regard to Felicity. * * * I’m also really not connecting that much with the newbies. Except, Curtis, but we’ve been given way more time with him. I also really like Rory a lot. I’m loving the developing friendship between Rory and Oliver/ Rory and Felicity. * * * Wild Dog is starting to annoy me. I’m getting very tired of the new kid on the block thinking he owns the Arrow cave. LL had a similar problem and it did not impress. * * * As for Evelyn, if the writers would give her more than two lines of dialogue per episode I could actually get to know her a little bit and decide whether or not I want to care. Cranking her up to 30% would be a vast improvement. Edited October 31, 2016 by tv echo 4 Link to comment
tv echo October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 (edited) No spoilers quoted... Will Oliver & Felicity Get Back Together In 'Arrow' Season 5? Teamwork Has To Come First Hannah Shapiro Oct. 26, 2016https://www.bustle.com/articles/191292-will-oliver-felicity-get-back-together-in-arrow-season-5-teamwork-has-to-come-first Quote Arrow portrays the superhero world as a dark one, filled with death, destruction and difficult choices. The tone of the show has always been heavy, as even the Green Arrow himself is not fully good. It often raises questions about the grey area of morality and how far one should go in order to stop evil. That's a big part of why the romance between Oliver and Felicity on Arrow, in many ways, became the heart of the show. They tried to navigate that grey area together, not always agreeing on the right path, and their relationship brought moments of levity to an otherwise bleak world. Unfortunately, Oliver and Felicity broke up in Arrow Season 4 and so far, this season has been more about them dealing with their own demons, re-establishing their friendship, and building a strong working relationship than delving into another romance. And I think the pair will continue to prioritize friendship, work, and growth before their relationship this season. * * * The importance of Felicity and Oliver's working relationship is really the reason why I'm OK with them not being together right now. A fully functioning team of good guys is necessary for Team Arrow to fight the massive evil in Star City, and Felicity is the brains behind the whole operation. Yes, there are exciting new faces joining the ranks, but Felicity makes the Green Arrow a better leader and provides so much of the intel, tech prowess, resources, and more that makes their missions successful. At this point, another Olicity romance would just complicate their very necessary working partnership. There are definite pros and cons to Oliver and Felicity being nothing more than friends and teammates. At the end of the day, the potential for romance will always exist; there is a magnetic energy between them that can't be ignored. But for now, it seems that other aspects of their relationship will take priority. I hope that eventually, Oliver and Felicity will rid the world of evil and live happily ever after. But as Arrow Season 5 has proven, they have a lot of work to do first. Edited October 31, 2016 by tv echo 2 Link to comment
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