The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[tv echo]

io9's take on 409 (recommend reading the entire article for pure entertainment value)...

 

Would You Vote for Oliver Queen Based on This Episode of Arrow?
Esther Inglis-Arkell  12/10/15 12:30pm
http://io9.com/would-you-vote-for-oliver-queen-based-on-this-episode-o-1747282634?utm_expid=66866090-68.Rvuykf2qT9qOAx_axtw3_w.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fio9.com%2Ftag%2Farrow-recap

Meanwhile, back in the present, when a reporter asks how Ollie managed to inspire people he says, “I didn’t inspire anyone. This is the city I remember!” Ooof, that’s oily. But that’s perfect. And that’s what’s going to get more people to help. This is exactly what you want from politicians. A line that makes people feel good costs nothing and might just work. He’s actually good at this.
*  *  *
Throughout this show, Ollie is just baffled by the fact that Darhk does exactly what Darhk has always done and what Darhk has actually told him that he’d do. At every point in time, he’s stunned by Darhk’s plan. It’s just amazing. It’s like the only purpose of his brain is to keep his eyeballs from falling backwards into his skull.
*  *  *
... Felicity appears unconscious and bleeding, possibly with a bullet wound to the chest. No way she’s dead. Too little drama, and we’re three months ahead of schedule.

[tv echo]

If you're interested (I don't much care for his reviews because he's hoping for a Felicity death)...

 

Same Geek Channel: ‘Arrow’ Episode 4.09 “Dark Waters”
Posted on 11 December, 2015 by Joey L. Mills
http://geekdad.com/2015/12/sgc-arrow-4-09/

[tv echo]

Posting this mainly because I like this reviewer's theory on Felicity's injury and recovery...

 

Arrow 4x09 Olicity Heart-to-Heart: The Proposal We’ve Been Waiting For!
MARILYN PORTER THU DEC 10 2015 11:00AM
http://www.heroesandheartbreakers.com/blogs/2015/12/arrow-season-4-episode-9-olicity-heart-to-heart-the-proposal-we-have-been-waiting-for

Charting the Course: It’s safe to say that Olicity saw some major progression this week. Our beloved couple got engaged in front of a crowd, including their nearest and dearest friends and family. That’s a huge level up in any relationship.  Of course, there’s plenty of issues going forward, including the fact that Felicity was just shot at the end of the episode. I wouldn’t worry about her chances of survival, though, Felicity isn’t going anywhere. What isn’t so certain, however, are the extent of her injuries. I personally believe the bullet grazed her lung (causing the internal bleeding we saw) and lodged in her spinal column. This would give Curtis a great opportunity to create a tech that can extract that bullet safely and restore Felicity’s mobility (and save the company, since the board is still expecting something on that front). Also, Oliver’s lie about William’s existence will surely come into play, perhaps when Felicity is feeling most vulnerable. Rocky seas ahead, shippers!

Edited December 11, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Jennifer Crusie really liked 409 (she also comments on 408 which she found laughable)...

 

Arrow Thursday: Merry Christmas to All
Jennifer Crusie   DECEMBER 10, 2015
http://arghink.com/2015/12/arrow-thursday-merry-christmas-to-all/

• “And then Kendra kisses Cisco good-bye and flies away to be Hawkgirl to Carter’s Hawkman on the spin-off because they’re soulmates even though they have no chemistry and their lives are basically one big flashback set to ‘Lather, Die, Repeat.’ It doesn’t help that their scenes in Ancient Egypt kept reminding me of The Mummy with Brendan Fraser and Rachel Weisz, who did have chemistry.”
*  *  *
Yeah, I was bitchy. But the good news is, this week Arrow told one solid, unified story and told it really well. So I’m pretending last week didn’t happen.
*  *  *
How much to love this week:
*  *  *
• Laurel’s Canary Cry being useful instead of just annoying. She’s still got Resting Bitch Face, but she looks strong and healthy and powerful, and I’m all for her.
*  *  *
• Oliver’s proposal to Felicity, which even made stone-hearted me smile.
• Oliver in general, doing smart things, including going back to being Dark Arrow and beating the crap out of the minions who helped kidnap the people he loved.
*  *  *
Nitpicks:
• Oliver clears the bay, so Damian sends a drone to shoot everybody; Oliver has a Christmas party, so Damian sends minions to shoot everybody; Oliver and Felicity are in the limo heading home after the engagement, so Damian . . . . It just shows a lack of originality, which is odd because Dahrk is all about being unpredictable.

• The replaying of Oliver at a grave. I don’t care. I don’t believe it’s Felicity, I don’t believe they’d take out a key player, and only about a third of the people killed in this show actually stay dead anyway. (Sara, Roy, Andy, Ray and Malcolm are back, Tommy and Moira are still dead which is a shame. Three quarters of them come back if you count Thea, but she was only mostly dead, (although I still think Deadshot is still alive) and why does everything in Nanda Parbat remind me of Monty Python?)

• Those freaking flashbacks. Okay, that’s not a nitpick, that was just pure dumb storytelling. You have a main story that’s not only fast-moving but fascinating, full of characters we love and loathe, and they interrupt it to tell a story about the past where Oliver is threatened (although not much because hey, here he is years later, doing just fine) which HAS NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER ON THE MAIN STORY. The flashbacks used to be annoying, now they’re inexplicable. Okay, I’ll give them back one point for the shark, but otherwise, WTF?

[tv echo]

The Six Important Moments From Arrow: Dark Waters
Posted December 10, 2015 by by Dan Wickline
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/12/10/the-six-important-moments-from-arrow-dark-waters/

... The decision to out Darhk is an interesting one. Oliver made the decision with his team… something the character would never have done in the past. He would have brooded over it and then found a way to try and put only himself in danger… which wouldn’t work. So the fact he made the decision with them shows growth for the character.

 

... I get taking Felicity and Thea… one is obviously his girlfriend and the other is his sister… but to the outside world Diggle is his bodyguard. Why would Darhk take him?
*  *  *
... Why are they growing corn inside a buliding? I get it ties into the algae they were cultivating in Starling Bay… but am I going to need a science lesson to understand the villains motivations this season? Usually it’s revenge or a desire to wipe out a city… but so far it looks like they’re doing it to make pop corn.
*  *  *
So the final moments Oliver and Felicity are in a limo going somewhere and are shot up. Felicity looks to be in bad shape and the trailer for when the show returns shows someone being rushed into the emergency room… and Oliver by a grave. Which all leads me to believe that she is going to be just fine. First thing I don’t think Marc Guggenheim and Wendy Mericle want a large group of Olicity shippers on their front lawns with pitchforks and torches. And where were Oliver and Felicity going? If they’re doing a tree lighting ceremony, shouldn’t they stay and talk with some of the people there? It almost felt staged. And there is so much insinuating that she is dead that I can’t see them doing it that way. But that’s just my opinion.

Edited December 11, 2015 by tv echo

[bijoux]

Jennifer Crusie really liked 409 (she also comments on 408 which she found laughable)...

 

Arrow Thursday: Merry Christmas to All

Jennifer Crusie   DECEMBER 10, 2015

http://arghink.com/2015/12/arrow-thursday-merry-christmas-to-all/

 

I'm crying over Lather, Die, Repeat over here.

[Morena]

Arrow Season 5 & 6, The Flash Season 3 & More of DC

http://moviepilot.com/posts/3676490

Edited December 12, 2015 by Morena

[Primal Slayer]

Rings so false i got a good laugh out it.

[Starfish35]

Yeaahhhhhh I'm skeptical. :(

[Chaser]

It's moviepilot. Ranking between 1-10 on credibility, they rest at a -5.

[apinknightmare]

The first paragraph reads like a fourth-grader's book report intro. 

[Chaser]

He is 19 actually.

 

His previous works include a FanCast of Twilight: The TV Show. I think my favorite pick was Christopher Nolan as Carlisle. 

[kismet]

Posting this mainly because I like this reviewer's theory on Felicity's injury and recovery...

 

Arrow 4x09 Olicity Heart-to-Heart: The Proposal We’ve Been Waiting For!

MARILYN PORTER THU DEC 10 2015 11:00AM

http://www.heroesandheartbreakers.com/blogs/2015/12/arrow-season-4-episode-9-olicity-heart-to-heart-the-proposal-we-have-been-waiting-for

I feel like I gave that same theory about the bullet retrieval before this review in the spoiler thread [just saying :)]... I honestly think it's where the story is headed. Because let's face it permanent paralysis is just not gonna happen on a CW show.

[Morrigan2575]

That was a massively confusing read, it seems like crap but he’s saying MG/WM mentioned all this on the Ryan Mcgee podcast. Did anyone listeneeds to that podcast or know if MG/WM did a podcast recently?

[dtissagirl]

That was a massively confusing read, it seems like crap but he’s saying MG/WM mentioned all this on the Ryan Mcgee podcast. Did anyone listeneeds to that podcast or know if MG/WM did a podcast recently?

 

The dude who wrote this thing is answering comments by saying "it isn't a video, it's from 2 posts on Christian Posts and Ryan's blog, i don't have the link anymore, because i don't need it anymore. But if you go to Ryan's Blog interviews you will find it for sure."

 

Who the hell are Christian and Ryan and wow, that's a great way to source your article, buddy.

[tv echo]

Here are the links for Ryan McGee (he's a Boston-based TV critic)...

 

Podcasts:
Talking TV with Ryan and Ryan
(Maureen Ryan and Ryan McGee)
http://talkingtvwithryanandryan.libsyn.com/

 

In Podcast Episode 172 (Dec. 9, 2015), Maureen and Ryan discuss the Flash/Arrow crossovers starting at 35:37 - Maureen didn't like that Oliver lied to Felicity.
.
Blog:
Boob Tube Dude
http://boobtubedude.com/

Interviews: http://boobtubedude.com/index.php/category/interviews/

Arrow:  http://boobtubedude.com/index.php/category/arrow/

 

Twitter:
https://twitter.com/TVMcGee

 

As for the info in that MoviePilot article, I don't know where it's coming from (unless maybe a much older podcast?), so I wish he had included links.  Here's all I found...

 

On Jan. 14, 2013, R&R did a podcast with MG and GB (which also linked to a HP article about the show):
Podcast: http://talkingtvwithryanandryan.libsyn.com/talking-tv-with-ryan-and-ryan-episode-34-talking-arrow-with-executive-producers-marc-guggenheim-and-greg-berlanti
HP Article:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/arrow-cw-new-villians_n_2474482.html
(This article is esp. interesting because they're talking about what's coming up at that point in time, which was mid-Season 1.  LOL... MG was then still talking about the "huge attraction" between Oliver and Laurel, even though they both know they can't be together "right now".)

 

Maybe that MoviePilot guy was referring to a different Ryan McGee.

 

The Christian Post is a Christian news website:  http://www.christianpost.com/ -  I don't have the time or inclination to search through that site.

Edited December 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

The dude who wrote this thing is answering comments by saying "it isn't a video, it's from 2 posts on Christian Posts and Ryan's blog, i don't have the link anymore, because i don't need it anymore. But if you go to Ryan's Blog interviews you will find it for sure."

 

Who the hell are Christian and Ryan and wow, that's a great way to source your article, buddy.

He mentioned Ryan Mcgee's podcast in the original post, and I know Ryan Mcgee is a legit media/entertainment reporter. I'm not saying this is correct it sounds like crap...although I wouldn't put it past Berlanti to try and get 2 more spin-off out of Arrow.

That's why I asked if anyone had heard Ryan's podcast and if WM/MG were on it. IF this originated on Ryan and Ryan, I'd believe it. However, as TV Echo said in her post, she can't find anything connecting this info to Ryan Mcgee so I think it's bullshit.

[dtissagirl]

Oh, now I get it, thanks, guys. By the time I read it, the word "McGee" was edited out then? That's weird. And LOL Christian Post. I actually just went there, but their search engine doesn't work? Gives me no results about anything.

 

I also tried googling the direct quotes from the Movie Pilot article, but it only finds the article itself. Which usually means made up quotes, but if it all comes from podcasts, maybe nobody transcribed them? It's still super fishy, though.

[tv echo]

Emertainment Monthly's glowing review of 409..

 

‘Arrow’ Review: “Dark Waters”
December 11, 2015 Nora Dominick ‘17
http://emertainmentmonthly.com/2015/12/11/arrow-review-dark-waters/

Although this week’s Arrow episode focused on Oliver’s continued fight against Damien Darhk, it centered heavily on Felicity Smoak (Emily Bett Rickards) and her relationship with Oliver. Donna Smoak (Charlotte Ross) makes another appearance in the latest episode of Arrow and her scenes opposite Rickards continue to be some of the best. While Donna is in Felicity and Oliver’s apartment helping to gather decorations for a Holiday party, Donna uncovers Oliver’s engagement ring for Felicity. Cue the scream heard around the Arrow fandom as Donna jumps up and down and shows her daughter. This lighthearted moment between Donna and Felicity is one of the best of the episode. Rickards and Ross continue to be the best mother-daughter duo on television and this moment solidifies that. Ross always knows how to enter an Arrow episode with a bang and this scene may be her best entrance to date. With Felicity analyzing the situation in seconds, a smile grows across her face and fans realize Felicity wants to marry Oliver too.
*  *  *
Stephen Amell and Emily Bett Rickards have proven themselves tremendously over the four seasons of Arrow. The duo both started out as relatively unknown actors, but now have transformed themselves and their characters into one of the most talked about couples on TV today. With Felicity’s life in peril, Amell and Rickards delivers one of their best acting performances together. When Darhk takes Oliver to see Felicity, Rickards presents the audience with one of her classic, gut-wrenching speeches to Oliver. Felicity tells him, “Here we are… Fighting. Fighting our way through the danger instead of running away from it. Isn’t that the whole point of marriage? To get through the hard times because we are together not in spite of it?” Whoever writes Felicity Smoak’s dialogue should win an award because her ability to leave fans and Oliver Queen hanging on every word is not only a testament to Rickards acting but also the writing.
 

It’s safe to say that Rickards is the breakthrough actor on Arrow and these intimate moments opposite Amell is when she truly leaves her mark. The mark of a great acting pair is when one actor can deliver lines that pack a punch while the other simply listens and reacts. This is what happens every single time Amell and Rickards act opposite each other. Their natural chemistry and sheer love for the characters and storylines they portray comes across effortlessly on screen. Rickards shines and Amell triumphs in these intimate moments opposite each other. In an episode purely driven by dialogue and emotion, Rickards and Amell’s growth as actors takes center stage.

[tv echo]

Kevin Smith and Marc Bernardin talk with AK (this podcast was retweeted by AK)...

 

FMoBM102: Passion of the Kreisberg (Part 1 of 2-part interview)
6 December 2015
https://soundcloud.com/fatmanonbatman/fatman-102

 

Lots of praise for The Flash and AK - actually really OTT praise.
Lots of background bio info on AK.
Only the most dedicated AK fan (or maybe the most dedicated Flarrow fan) could listen to this entire podcast... sorry, but I tuned out after the first half hour.

Edited December 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Apparently that's Kevin Smith standard. I've heard he lavished praise on both Josh Track and Fan4stick in his podcast series with Josh Trank. The last part was never published because the movie was a huge bomb.

[tv echo]

Arrow Season 4: 16 WTF Moments From ‘Dark Waters’
Andrew Pollard  11 DEC 2015
http://whatculture.com/tv/arrow-season-4-16-wtf-moments-from-dark-waters.php

As part of his mayoral campaign, Oliver had arranged for everybody to club in together and help clean up Star City’s dirty, murky bay. That’s a great idea, and we see groups of all ages helping out and doing their bit to help the city. Well, everyone bar Ollie that is.
*  *  *
Oh, angry Ollie, how we’ve missed you.
*  *  *
Whilst Oliver Queen is out on the streets of Star City desperately trying to beat information out of any and all rogues he comes across, you’d think the only other non-captured Team Arrow member would help him out in attempting to track down their kidnapped cohorts.

Not Laurel Lance.

Throughout all of this, she literally does absolutely nothing. Even when Ollie returns to the Arrowcave (is that a thing yet?), Laurel is just stood there, not even suited up in her Black Canary garb. Come on, Laurel – even if you’re not going to do anything, at least try and look the part.

But yet again, the horrific characterisation of Laurel Lance continues.
*  *  *
“Stone Cold” Steve Austin likes to make regular reference to a BMF stare, and this was one bad mother f*cker of a look that Oliver gave to Darhk, perfectly summing up the feelings of our hero as he makes it clear to Darhk that he’s done playing around.
*  *  *
It’s seemingly a rarity these days that Laurel Lance’s Black Canary has any sort of use… yet here she finally gets to do something of note.

[bethy]

Oh, now I get it, thanks, guys. By the time I read it, the word "McGee" was edited out then? That's weird. And LOL Christian Post. I actually just went there, but their search engine doesn't work? Gives me no results about anything.

 

I also tried googling the direct quotes from the Movie Pilot article, but it only finds the article itself. Which usually means made up quotes, but if it all comes from podcasts, maybe nobody transcribed them? It's still super fishy, though.

 

I was able to search on the Christian Post. I looked for Arrow and Guggenheim. There were a number of articles and I just skimmed through a couple, but didn't see anything that mentioned anything that article said. For what that's worth.

[tv echo]

fangirlish's very positive review of 409 (also, she now thinks Laurel's the one in the grave, but I disagree)...

 

‘Arrow’ 4×09 Review: Fighting the Darkness With Light
DECEMBER 10, 2015
http://fangirlish.com/arrow-4x09-review-fighting-the-darkness-with-light/

... This was easily Arrow‘s best episode to date as it weaved action, emotion, intrigue, heartbreak, and love into an hour dedicated to celebrating the light in a world that is so dark, much like our own.
*  *  *
But none of this would be possible without the incredible and carefully crafted way that Stephen Amell and Emily Bett Rickards have cultivated this relationship from the start. We’ve essentially watched these two grow as actors alongside each other as they continue to explore these two characters that are the heart and soul of this superhero show. This episode was by far their best work yet. These two have proven time and time again how incredible they are individually, but when they’re together it’s like nothing I’ve ever seen before. They make each other better, and that’s the sign of sheer brilliance.
*  *  *
One of the things that has been incredible about Oliver and Felicity’s relationship is the level of maturity that both characters possess in it. These are two grown adults who have learned to talk about their issues. Really makes you wonder where the hell this was in last week’s episode...
*  *  *
he big question of the season remains: Who’s in the grave? ... At this point, Laurel is number one on my list. All signs are pointing towards it.

[tv echo]

GASP! ARROW’S MID-SEASON FINALE “DARK WATERS” TAKES OUR BREATH AWAY
Verena Cote | December 10, 2015
http://www.4ye.co.uk/2015/12/gasp-arrows-mid-season-finale-dark-waters-takes-our-breath-away/

... It is a rather insensitive move to put a Jewish woman in a gas chamber during Hanukkah, but Darhk is not exactly known for his sensitivity. Seeing Oliver and Felicity say goodbye, admitting their love for each other one last time, hurt so much more than anticipated. These scenes were a real tear-jerker...
*  *  *
Where there is darkness, there is light. Mama Smoak is back in town and with her a whole lot of excitement. If seeing her being incredibly sweet with Quentin isn’t enough reason to smile, her reactions to Oliver and Felicity should be! The screech she lets out after finding the engagement ring that Oliver had hidden with the holiday decorations – not his brightest moment – echoed with the ones of Olicity fans all over the world. When Felicity realizes Oliver had been planning to propose to her three months ago, they have a meaningful talk about the lives they lead and the life they’re planning together. After the traumatic events involving Darhk, Oliver gives yet another charismatic speech, followed by his very own proposal: He asks Felicity to make him “the happiest man on the face of the earth”. We cried, we laughed, we felt a lot of very different emotions. She’s the one who lights his way, she’s his future and it’s about time to make it official. Feel free to rewatch this amazing scene approximately 286,204 times.
*  *  *
Flashback Oliver gets bitten by a shark – What the hell is happening back on Lian Yu? Once again the flashbacks lack in quality compared to the present story.

[tv echo]

Negative review of 409 (graded C+)...

 

Arrow Season 4 Episode #09 – Dark Waters Review
Jarius Taylor  December 11, 2015 at 11:35 AM
http://www.fandompost.com/2015/12/11/arrow-season-4-episode-09-dark-waters-review/

The whole “stuff the hero’s girlfriend in a fridge” thing has been done to death, even on this show and you’d think that after the outcry Sarah’s initial death brought at the beginning of last season that the writers would stay clear of that. In a sense this almost feels like the producers’ reactions to a vocal section of people calling for Felicity’s death because they don’t like the pairing of her and Oliver together, and while that’s almost certainly not the case, the execution here gets pretty close. All that said given the preview for the next episode, there’s the slight chance she’s not actually dead and someone else will be this season’s victim but all signs are leading that way and after this episode, I don’t think I could trust the show to be clever enough to pull a fast one that successfully.
*  *  *
The midseason finale s the darkest episode the show’s dished out since this season began, but it’s also one of the most questionably executed. Felicity’s fate at the end offered pretty much no level of surprise because the show was so openly transparent about it throughout this whole affair that they might as well have painted a target sign on her. Arrow’s never been a particularly subtle show, but this is extreme even for it’s standards and the other elements of the episode aren’t quite enough to make up for how much it dulled the impact of what should be a surprising twist. This gave a pretty similar vibe to the midseason finale of last season, and that season descended pretty quickly after the fact, so I’m worried the same thing could happen here. Guess we’ll find out in January.

Edited December 12, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This guy gave Arrow a mid-season grade of B- (and gave Flash a mid-season grade of B+)...

 

THE FLASH/ARROW MID-SEASON REVIEW
POSTED BY ANTON REYES ON DEC 11, 2015
http://www.audienceseverywhere.net/the-flasharrow-mid-season-review/

... On the other side of the coin, there’s Arrow Season 4. While The Flash had characters reeling over the effects of last season’s cliffhanger, Arrow had an audience and plot reeling over a disastrous third season. The negative effects of season three are still present in the characters’ relationships with one another, but over the course of the half-season, the self-reparation kicked in, and after that mid-season finale, it’s safe to say the series is in a place where it can launch to an overall good season.
 

The biggest change this season is that the show has a more hopeful tone than any of its previous seasons. Oliver Queen believes he can save his city more as himself than as Green Arrow, if he runs for mayor. His fight to keep darkness from infecting the soul of his city is a reflection on the series in its current state, and it may not be subtle at all, but it’s definitely an improvement. The same could be said for the actual effort to write the characters this season. Oliver fixes his relationship with Diggle and Quentin. Felicity and her relationship with Oliver actually feed into the overall theme of the season, instead of being a throwaway storyline that was never justified. Oliver and Felicity’s engagement at the end of the mid-season finale felt like an encapsulation of the season thus far; more hopeful, more united, and better written characters.

Edited December 12, 2015 by tv echo

[calliope1975]

Apparently that's Kevin Smith standard. I've heard he lavished praise on both Josh Track and Fan4stick in his podcast series with Josh Trank. The last part was never published because the movie was a huge bomb.

 

I'm a regular listener of FMoB, and yes, it's a tongue bath pretty much all the time on whatever topic they're discussing. Marc Bernardin is a better critic of shows, but you're not going to get much in depth critical analysis. I do have to laugh because KS won't watch Arrow because MG once replied, "No," on Twitter to someone asking if KS would be invited to be on Arrow. Egos. But Marc just convinced him to watch The Flash, and surprise!, he loves it. I'm interested in hearing what he has to say about the crossover. 

 

The Josh Trank interviews are hilarious in hindsight, especially when the movie tanked. 

[tv echo]

IGN's positive review of 409...

 

ARROW: "DARK WATERS" REVIEW
856 It's not a Merry Christmas for Team Arrow this year.
BY JESSE SCHEDEEN 9 DEC 2015
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/12/10/arrow-dark-waters-review

This episode wouldn’t have worked very well if it were singularly focused on the Darhk conflict. Viewers needed a reminder of what Ollie is fighting for and what he stands to lose by crossing Darhk. That’s why it was good to see some attention paid to relationship drama and even a healthy dose of humor thrown in for good measure....  Felicity and her mother accidentally discovering Ollie’s engagement ring led to a fun little conflict. The writers could have played up that plot point for more drama, but it’s just as well they didn’t. You can’t really blame Ollie for putting his proposal on hold while dealing with the Darhk problem. And really, if anything is going to be the catalyst for a real Ollie/Felicity rift, it’s the revelation from last week about his secret son.
 

Instead, the engagement fiasco injected a little extra entertainment value into the episode as Felicity struggled and failed to pretend she didn’t know. Later, it led to a touching scene where she and Ollie exchanged silent “I love you’s” when Felicity’s death by gas chamber seemed certain. And it culminated with a touching proposal. Despite last week’s drama, things seem to be looking up for Olicity. Or they did, right up until that cliffhanger…
 

... And kudos to Laurel for actually accomplishing something with that seemingly useless Canary Cry.
*  *  *
And finally, Darhk finally scored a direct hit on Team Arrow. My only complaint is that the final shot wasn’t handled very well. The episode cut out before we could get a proper reaction from Ollie. But even if this moment could have been presented a little better, it was just the sort of dramatic twist the show needed to carry it into the new year. I don’t believe that Felicity will actually die or that this is the moment that leads into the flash-forward from the Season 4 premiere. I say that both because she’s too vital to the show to kill off so abruptly and because the trailer for the next episode is a little too blatant about trying to connect those dots. Regardless of what happens to Felicity, the feud between Oliver Queen and Damien Darhk has just become more personal than ever.
*  *  *
Arrow ended 2015 exactly as it needed to, by returning its focus squarely to the escalating conflict between Oliver Queen and Damien Darhk. Darhk had a terrific showing this week, making life miserable for just about everyone and keeping viewers enthralled all the while. Coupled with some good relationship drama and a fun superhero team-up between Malcolm Merlyn and Laurel Lance, and the series offered plenty to tide viewers over until 2016.

Edited December 13, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I guess Laura Hurley is doing her multi-part episode breakdown for 409 - here's Part 1...

 

'Arrow' S04E09: What worked in 'Dark Waters'
Laura Hurley  December 12, 2015 7:35 PM MST
http://www.examiner.com/article/arrow-s04e09-what-worked-dark-waters

What Worked: “Dark Waters” saw Arrow tackling the Team Arrow 3.0 dynamic perfectly. Each of the characters had a part to play. Diggle had scenes with his brother that combined character development with plot. Laurel found use both as ADA and as the carrier of the Canary Cry collar. Thea continued to assist with Oliver’s campaign and fought barefoot out of the HIVE headquarters. Felicity…okay, well, Felicity’s main plot purpose was mostly to get kidnapped and then shot, but her marriage discussions with Oliver were some of the most important character beats of the entire series, and Oliver did give a nod to her tech superpowers when he announced that the fancy HIVE phone wasn’t good for much more than calling without Felicity around. Even peripheral ally Quentin got to contribute, and Malcolm was the most enjoyable that he’s been in ages.
*  *  *
The ring being hidden in the decorations box does raise the question of whether or not Oliver subconsciously wanted one of the Smoak women to find it and force his hand. If Oliver had really wanted to keep the ring a secret, he could have hidden it in the spice rack or crock pot. Of course, the ring was pretty much just a MacGuffin to prompt the marriage discussion between Oliver and Felicity, but the terrible hiding place allowing for Donna’s Pterodactyl Scream of Maternal Joy and immediate evaluation of the diamond makes it one of the very best things about “Dark Waters.”

Edited December 13, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Latest podcast by Craig Wack and Tatiana Torres, who discuss midseason finales (Arrow discussion starts at 31:15)...

 

Agents of GEEK Podcast Episode 7
Posted on 12/11/2015
http://agentsofgeekpodcast.com/wordpress/

 

-- Tatiana says that she was so happy, and then "WTF is happening right now?... Everything is awful."  Now she's in denial.
-- Craig says that Arrow and Flash feel like themselves again after cutting loose of LoT setup.
-- Craig's reaction to Oliver, Laurel and Malcolm being the ones left to plot the rescue was "Yikes!"
-- Craig admits that Laurel "does something right for a change" by using the Canary Cry to break the glass of the gas chamber and then chucking her baton to Oliver.
-- When Oliver proposed to Felicity, Tatiana "squeed for like five minutes".
-- At the end of the episode, Tatiana "was crying in her chair" and "doing lots of rationalizing" about why Felicity can't die.
-- Tatiana says that Felicity can't die because "they don't want to destroy everyone who watches the show, right? ... Everyone loves her."
-- Tatiana says that Felicity can't die because the whole plot thread about Oliver lying to her about his secret son would be "inconsequential" if she were to die (because who cares then).
-- Craig mentions that, "to show the devotion of the Olicity fandom", when the 401 flashforward scene was first shown, those fans went as far as checking Jewish funeral traditions and discovered that in traditional Jewish funerals, they don't put flowers around the grave, but instead put stones. So it couldn't be Felicity in the grave since the flashforward scene showed flowers at the grave.
-- Tatiana says that she feels like we've seen "the darkest timeline" of Oliver and that Felicity's death would "hurt the growth he's had as a character".
-- Tatiana then says that a follower of theirs on twitter said that Felicity's death would be fine because Oliver is going to marry Laurel anyway.  Tatiana's reaction was "no, no, no, no - that is not a thing - and if it does happen, I quit this show."  Craig responds, "you and about a million other watchers."  Tatiana says that "it would be inorganic" for that to happen.
-- Tatiana then wonders if Laurel could be the one in the grave because there's another Canary (albeit on another show) and Laurel's unnecessary.
-- Craig doesn't think anyone's in the grave, that it's empty.  He thinks Felicity has a survivable wound, possibly paralyzed, but will spend some time recovering.  He thinks DD will make more attempts to kill her, so they're going to fake her death and that Felicity will come back as Oracle.
-- Tatiana mentions speculation that Diggle's in the grave, but she doesn't believe that.  And she's "whatevs" if Thea's in the grave.  She just doesn't want it to be Felicity in the grave.
-- Craig thinks that Laurel looks "ridiculous" when she uses the Canary Cry.
-- They both think that the show should just drop the flashbacks now.

-- Also listen to their closing comments (starting at 1:59).

Edited December 13, 2015 by tv echo

[Happy Harpy]

 

Felicity…okay, well, Felicity’s main plot purpose was mostly to get kidnapped and then shot

Yet she de-activated a machine-gun drone, saving directly a respectable number of people. I know that Felicity is routinely awesome so does this kind of stuff all the time, and one could argue that saving those people was a detail and not her "main plot".

Yet, it could read as if she contributed only by default or as the love of Oliver's life. And since the writers were careful to place a reminder that without mask and with "only" her  IT knowledge, she's a hero on her own right, since they were careful to give her an active contribution on the field, in the very episode where she is kidnapped, I find it a bit unfair for them not to mention it.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[tv echo]

Interesting -- we can't assume that those people were DD's wife and daughter..

 

Arrow: How That Damien Darhk Twist Should Affect The Future
BY LAURA HURLEY  3 DAYS AGO
http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Arrow-How-Damien-Darhk-Twist-Should-Affect-Future-104697.html

The episode didn’t clarify just how Darhk is related to the mother and child. Given his age, the little girl may well be his great-great-great-great-great-great grandchild. Still, there has been a running theme of parenthood throughout Season 4, and it’s pretty safe to assume that either the child or her mother is Darhk’s daughter.
*  *  *
Arrow won’t be back until 2016, so we’ll have plenty of time to think of all the ways for Oliver to get his revenge on Damien Darhk over hiatus.

Edited December 13, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Warning - this article refers to some spoilery comments made by MG (previously posted in the Spoilers thread)...

 

Arrow: Will Felicity Smoak Become

Oracle

?
Russ Burlingame - 12/12/2015
http://comicbook.com/2015/12/12/arrow-will-felicity-smoak-become-oracle-/

Edited December 13, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This guy thinks DD works, but Olicity doesn't work, and wants to see more of Laurel at her day job - I couldn't disagree more...

 

Midseason Report Card: Damien Darhk lifts ‘Arrow’ season 4, but by how much?
December 12, 2015

http://cartermatt.com/188988/midseason-report-card-damien-darhk-lifts-arrow-season-4-but-by-how-much/

What didn’t – This is the part we regret to mention, mostly because it’s coming from someone who was the biggest Olicity ‘shipper out there for the first couple of seasons: The relationship’s just lost its sense of fun. We feel like rather than just having it be a fun extension of Oliver’s hero adventures, he and Felicity have been thrown into constant melodrama. The show hasn’t found a way to keep what we love about both of them in the relationship. It’s almost reminiscent in a way of Nick and Jess, for those of you who watch “New Girl”; we all desperately wanted them together, but then when they were, it wasn’t what we thought it would be.

Also, can we get a little bit more of Laurel at her day job? It feels like a while since we’ve had that.

Edited December 13, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Another article from BuddyTV after 409...

 

Felicity's Fate: Why 'Arrow' Isn't Fooling Anyone
December 10, 2015  Derek Stauffer
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/arrow/felicitys-fate-why-arrow-isnt-58305.aspx

It would stand to reason that this conversation takes place sometime in May after the season finale of The Flash. So if that is Felicity in the grave, dead from the attack in "Dark Waters" that would mean Oliver waited around 5 months to bury her. This seems pretty unlikely, to the say the least. It's would be pretty disrespectful to Felicity's Jewish religion too since that ideology believes quite strongly that bodies should be laid to rest relatively quickly following death.
*  *  *
Felicity is not just the love of Oliver's life. She is the glue that holds Team Green Arrow together. The team has several costumed crime fighters on the squad now. They only have one Felicity. She is not only skilled with a computer but no one knows as much about Oliver and crew as Felicity. I suppose Arrow could bring in Curtis to fill her shoes as Team Green Arrow's tech expert but that would take a lot of explaining. Felicity is the only main character who interacts regularly Curtis. Curtis knows Oliver but Oliver can't trust him enough to tell him that he's an arrow shooting vigilante.
*  *  *
So it would seem really hypocritical on Arrow's part to give Felicity such an inglorious and pathetic death where she dies after not being protected enough.  Felicity is completely helpless when the Ghosts attack her and Oliver. She does nothing to save herself and is forced to lie in the back of the limo while it is pelted with bullets.
*  *  *
This is not even to mention what Felicity's dying in "Dark Waters" would suggest about her character arc. As mentioned right before Felicity and Oliver are attacked they finally get engaged. If Felicity were to die in the Ghost attack, it would mean her entire purpose as a character was to make Oliver happy. Only for Oliver's happiness to be  snatched away yet again. It's demoralizing, dehumanizing thing to suggest that Felicity's greatest contribution to Arrow was as Oliver's love interest. Yet if Felicity really is dead that would be what Arrow is saying about a character who deserves so much more credit.

Edited December 13, 2015 by tv echo

[way2interested]

This guy thinks DD works, but Olicity doesn't work, and wants to see more of Laurel at her day job - I couldn't disagree more...

 

Midseason Report Card: Damien Darhk lifts ‘Arrow’ season 4, but by how much?

December 12, 2015

http://cartermatt.com/188988/midseason-report-card-damien-darhk-lifts-arrow-season-4-but-by-how-much/

 

Matt Carter used to have a podcast for reviewing Arrow episodes (not sure if he does it anymore, since they were pretty disappointed with s3), and right before they finished s3 I remember that they were really against any ending that had Oliver and Felicity ending up together (not that he didn't ship Olicity, he just didn't ship it with "this Oliver and Felicity"). It was a shame because when they were declaring that they didn't want that ending, spoilers already came out about the driving off into the sunset scene, so I was already preparing myself for their epic disappointment. I'm not even sure what he means about "what we love about both of them in a relationship," does he mean their s2 selves, considering the fact that they weren't really themselves in s3? Does he miss Felicity's quips and Oliver's hero complex? Because both are in s4. Does he miss them not fighting with each other? Because they already had plenty of disagreements in past episodes. Or does just he miss the fact they were just friends who weren't in a relationship? 

 

As for the New Girl comparison, I always kind of cringe when people say that putting Nick and Jess together ruined their relationship. IMHO, they were fine as a couple, it was just that s3's (it seems like s3 is a messy time for many shows, my sister and I call it the "season 3 curse") plots in general just didn't really service them, or any other character quite honestly, well at all, and their break-up was handled haphazardly to get the characters back to a place where they could play with the friendship and the "will they/won't they" more than their actual relationship. If I had to make a comparison, the New Girl writers seemed somewhat against supporting the Nick-Jess relationship, while the Arrow writers just seemed against quickly committing to Olicity, neither of them, IMO, had actual problems with writing them in relationships. 

[NumberCruncher]

*shrugs* To each his/her own, I guess. I've been enjoying Oliver and Felicity's relationship this season...well, up until the episode-that-shall-remain-nameless. If anything, I think S4 has proven that they work incredibly well together as a couple when even the most die-hard anti-Olicity types have been (for the most part) acknowledging their scenes have crackled in their reviews. As to Matt Carter's assertion that they aren't their S2 selves, I agree and disagree--of course they aren't the same people they were 2 seasons ago because characters grow as a result of their experiences, but I think the way they interact to each other is very S2-reminiscent. The playfulness/lightheartedness is back. The respect is back (last week did NOT happen and was a blip). The die-hard support of each other is back. Oliver and Felicity are more like their S2 selves around each other than they ever were last season.

Edited December 13, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[Ann Mack]

Nice picture of Stephen having fun at the Arrow Holiday Party

 

[Happy Harpy]

Arrow got no love on TVLine quotes of the week. It's weird, I thought it was the most quotable episode in a long while, so I expected some Damian or Malcolm mention. I'm *this* close to cry foul, tongue in cheek, and elaborate a conspiracy theory about the absence of the "bondage suit" line.

[bijoux]

Nice picture of Stephen having fun at the Arrow Holiday Party

 

He should tone it down. People will start to expect to see Oliver and Felicity dancing on the show.

[way2interested]

Arrow got no love on TVLine quotes of the week. It's weird, I thought it was the most quotable episode in a long while, so I expected some Damian or Malcolm mention. I'm *this* close to cry foul, tongue in cheek, and elaborate a conspiracy theory about the absence of the "bondage suit" line.

 

Definitely, I was really expecting "Felicity Smoak, will you make me the happiest man on the face of the Earth?" as a bonus quote following some snark from MM or DD. This episode seemed as determined to get a quote of the week as Marc was with 323 with Lance's line. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by way2interested

[foreverevolving]

Definitely, I was really expecting "Felicity Smoak, will you make me the happiest man on the face of the Earth?" as a bonus quote following some snark from MM or DD. This episode seemed as determined to get a quote of the week as Marc was with 323 with Lance's line. 

I was expecting Thea's minions line to make it on the list!

[wonderwall]

Lines that could've made it:

• The bondage line
• The minion line
• Basically ALL of Damien's lines
• Oliver's proposal
• Donna's line about the ring...

[tv echo]

Laura Hurley's "What Worked" article (Part 1) was posted above in this thread.  Here's her "What Didn't Work" (Part 2) and "What Needs to Happen Next" (Part 3) articles on 409 - I wanted to quote both articles in their entirety (definitely worth reading)...

 

'Arrow' S04E09: What didn't work in 'Dark Waters'
December 13, 2015  8:05 AM MST
http://www.examiner.com/article/arrow-s04e09-what-didn-t-work-dark-waters

... A small thing that really didn't work was that “Dark Waters” didn’t begin with Oliver opening his eyes in bed in the Loft o’ Love and then rolling over to tell Felicity about this crazy he dream he had where there were hawk people flying around and time travel and an illegitimate love child that he didn’t tell her about. Then they could have had a good laugh at how ridiculous that would be and get to reminding viewers just why the Loft o’ Love is known around these parts as the Loft o’ Love. "Dark Waters" erasing "Legends of Yesterday" really could have worked.
*  *  *
Ambiguously Accented Woman continues to be so unremarkable in the flashbacks that she still does not warrant this reviewer looking up how to properly spell her name. Her primary purpose of late has been to provide a presence to allow Oliver to exposit aloud without any awful voiceovers, but really, the same purpose could have been served by a volleyball...
*  *  *
Arrow, however, does not face the same requirement, and forcing a Jewish character who had spent decent chunks of her time on screen in "Dark Waters" reminding viewers of her religion into a gas chamber on the fourth night of Hanukkah was so disrespectful and insensitive that it didn’t belong anywhere near an 8 p.m. series on The CW. There were plenty of ways for Damien Darhk to have done something awful to Felicity and Co. It didn’t have to be a gas chamber during Hanukkah.

 

'Arrow' S04E09: What needs to happen next after 'Dark Waters'
December 13, 2015 5:17 PM MST
http://www.examiner.com/article/arrow-s04e09-what-needs-to-happen-next-after-dark-waters

Felicity needs to be okay. Ongoing consequences from the shooting are fine, but irreparable damage would be too far. A loss of a limb or a loss of mobility or a loss of the ability to have children is just too tragic and punitive for a woman whose trauma is coming from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. She doesn’t need to enter any pogo stick competitions or run any marathons or announce that she wants a baker’s dozen of kids, but permanently taking the possibilities away from a 26-year old woman five minutes after she agreed to a happily-ever-after with the man she loves is too dark even for Arrow.
*  *  *
If the Canary Cry is going to be a part of the series and if poor Katie Cassidy is going to have to do her best impression of an anaconda getting ready to swallow an antelope to activate it, there need to be consistent rules about how it works. As of now, the Canary Cry’s effectiveness depends entirely on what the plot du jour requires of it. Sometimes, glass breaks and everybody has to cover their ears. Other times, bad guys are affected while the good guys are fine. Still other times, literally nothing happens except Laurel looks ridiculous. There need to be rules.

Edited December 14, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Here's the 409 review by those two USA Today romance authors...

 

Allison Brennan and Lavinia Kent on ‘Arrow’ Dark Waters: Wow
By Allison Brennan and Lavinia Kent December 11, 2015 6:00 pm
http://happyeverafter.usatoday.com/2015/12/11/allison-brennan-lavinia-kent-arrow-dark-waters/

LK: So finally we are at the end (or back to the beginning). FELICITY IS NOT DEAD. I have a dozen reasons for believing this and I am sure that you have even more. I did have some complaints about the attack: Why were they alone? Why no bulletproof vests? (I know I would have worn one for that proposal scene.)

AB: I absolutely don’t think that Felicity is dead. Why? Because she is the light of the show. Even without Oliver and her together, she is the light. We NEED her. But more that that, after the last episode, the showrunner said that the fact that Oliver didn’t tell Felicity about his son would be part of their future conflict. They are obviously planning on keeping her around! Right? They couldn’t just be making it up to throw us off. (OK, yes, they could, but no. Just no.) Instead, I think they’re going to do what The Walking Dead did to us with Glenn, make us THINK Felicity is dead, then bring her back in a completely plausible way. (Maybe under guard at a hospital? Maybe sending her to Nanda Parbat to be guarded by the League of Assassins?) I think the grave belongs to someone else. (And they didn’t show the grave at the end, only in the opening sequence. That scene hasn’t happened yet!) What do you think?

LK: In the trailer for the next episode, they do show Felicity being rushed to the hospital — and I am quite sure she will survive. I have mixed feelings about whether they will try to make us believe she is dead. I feel they did that last year (with Roy) and I am not sure they’ll do it again. I definitely think that someone else is in the grave. I am still guessing Quentin. For a few seconds during this episode, I did think it might be Thea, but that would have seemed like a cheat after they killed her last year and brought her back. And I did have one horrible thought, could it be Darhk’s daughter? Could she get caught in the crossfire? I do hope and trust not.

 

And here are their reviews for other Arrow S4 episodes:
http://happyeverafter.usatoday.com/author/allison-brennan-and-lavinia-kent/

[Password]

I find it very hard to forget about the baby mama storyline when reviewers keep bringing it up. I'm trying here.

[NumberCruncher]

What baby mama?

[tv echo]

TV Fanatic's roundtable discussion of 409 (surprise, surprise - they're down on the Olicity engagement, they think Felicity will walk away from this life because it's too dangerous, etc.)...

 

Arrow Round Table: Amnesia for Felicity?
Carissa Pavlica at December 15, 2015 8:00 am
http://www.tvfanatic.com/2015/12/arrow-round-table-amnesia-for-felicity/

Oliver and Felicity are engaged. React!

Liz: It's nice and all, but it probably won't last very long. What with Oliver's secret son, and Damien Darhk's determination to destroy Oliver, it's probably going to get called off at some point.

Lindsay: I'm not super comfortable with Oliver proposing while still keeping his son a secret from Felicity. It's a big step to take on a foundation of dishonesty.

Meg: it's sweet, sure, but there is no way it can last. Felicity will find out about Oliver's son, and that may be what does it.

Caralynn: I agree. The engagement plot was very cute (particularly the Felicity and Mama Smoak moments), but there's definitely a dark shadow cast over it with the secret and Darhk being on the warpath against Oliver. It's almost definitely going to get side barred or, worse, blown to pieces in all the chaos. But all that really indicates is that there will be another proposal later on, when everything's settled down and the secret about his son is out in the open.

Carissa: I'm not sure how I feel about it at all. I'm trying to picture a world where these two are actually married and the show continues, and I just can't see it.
*  *  *
Meg: I don't think she is dead, but maybe she will decide that she no longer wants to chose this life knowing how hard it has become.

*  *  *

Carissa: My initial thought was that she would choose for herself to walk away from being in the line of fire. Then it's not a push, but a pull and genuinely chosen. Love doesn't solve everything, you know.

Edited December 15, 2015 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

Were they not paying attention to the multiple times that "I choose this life, I don't need to be protected" was emphasized? Did I watch a different episode than they did?