Past Seasons Talk: The Tribe Has Spoken

[wonald]

 

 

Well nothing new there.  I remember Stephenie's exit interviews from that season talking about what a letdown and disappointment it was finally meeting the Great Rupert.  He was a prima donna off camera and all he wanted to talk about was all the free stuff and sponsorships and whatnot he was going to get from being on the show again.

 

Lots of survivors have dissed Rupert but it's kinda rich coming from StepheME. Hello Kettle!

 

I doubt Candice was ever not going to vote for Sandra, not matter the post-game interviews. They were from the same hometown at that time. Hometown girl gotta represent.

[LadyChatts]

I always thought Stephenie was bitter and disappointed by her time on HvsV.  After Palau, she was America's Sweetheart and a huge fan favorite that got the first return visit outside of an AS season.  It went downhill from Guatemala, and I was surprised to see her turn up on HvsV.  And then she bombed out there.  Given the track record of tribes she was on, maybe James was right that the issue with losing was her.

[Donny Ketchum]

Well nothing new there.  I remember Stephenie's exit interviews from that season talking about what a letdown and disappointment it was finally meeting the Great Rupert.  He was a prima donna off camera and all he wanted to talk about was all the free stuff and sponsorships and whatnot he was going to get from being on the show again.

I can believe it.  It is Rupert, after all.

[choclatechip45]

Yet as you pointed out, Candice later apologized to Parvati for attacking her at FTC (and by extension voting for Sandra). Candice pretty well said that was based on hearsay and wrong impressions.

Also, on RHAP, Amanda ruefully admitted she voted for Sandra to win because someone told her Parvati said something bad about her.

This ties in with what I think happened in HvV. The heroes were pissed -- bitter -- that Parvati outplayed, outwitted and was a major force in booting all of them. They were only too glad to vote against her, not based on what actually happened, but gossip. I'd be shocked if they didn't huddle together at Ponderosa to work out how they would vote.

Colby got booted at F5. If he had made F3, my guess is the heroes would have given him their votes. What a joke that would be. Instead they voted for their honorary hero, Sandra, who didn't take the lead in bouncing any of them, and actually wanted to align with them.

I believe there was more to Coach's boot than "Sandra duped Russell." Sandra got the ball rolling. But Russell ended up changing his mind: he did not vote to boot Coach. He voted to boot Courtney.

Coach got sent home because of Parvati. Once his name came up, she saw the opportunity to toss a big rival. Coach had targeted her from day one, was unhappy with the villains, was flip-flopping back and forth about twice a day, enraged with Russell (what Sandra told Russell was basically true) and dreamed of aligning with Rupert and Colby. All excellent reasons to eliminate him, given the chance.

Booting Coach brought another big benefit to Parv. It cemented in place the heroes' delusion about the women's alliance. It was the final trigger that convinced them to give Russell the idol.

Sandra nearly got booted around then anyway. Next episode was touch and go between Courtney and her. So while she did take the first step to save one of them, that fit beautifully in with Parv's plans anyway... didn't end up working on Russell... and almost didn't save her from elimination one boot later.

A few more thoughts about HvV:

Rupert was a complete tool/hypocrite. I was real glad when he finally got voted out. Did he really break his toe? He sure seemed mobile enough later on, in one challenge after another.

Many of the challenges were too physical. Did Survivor tone down on that in later seasons, due to the injuries suffered in HvV?

On re-watching the season, I appreciate Sandra a bit more. My overall view has not changed though: that Parv played a much better game, against far worse odds, 'deserved' the win, and Sandra fell into it through incredible fortune, the idiot-savant Russell and bruised egos among the heroes.

Even though Candice apologized after the fact shows to me that Parvati played a poor social game. People are going to have hurt feelings it's the finalists job to convince the jury that they should vote for them. It comes down to respect your not going to vote for someone you don't respect. Candice clearly didn't respect Parvati at the end if HvV.

A good example is China majority of the players weren't planning to vote for Todd he was able to convince the jury who was pissed at him to vote for him because he defended the game he played and the jury said they respected him for it. The same thing in Vanuatu Chris told the jury what they wanted to hear and Twila didn't.

Parvati and Amanda had a falling out after Micronesia. Parvati changes the subject whenever anyone asks her about this.

Edited June 9, 2015 by choclatechip45

[enlightenedbum]

Todd just spewed bullshit to a dumb jury (like Jean Robert) and Amanda has poor social skills.  That's like the one time I do think the jury was just wrong.  Todd sucks.

[henripootel]

that Parv played a much better game, against far worse odds, 'deserved' the win, and Sandra fell into it through incredible fortune, the idiot-savant Russell and bruised egos among the heroes.

Right there with you except for the 'deserved' part.  I don't think anybody 'deserves' to win, and luck, idiots, and unhappy losers are all part of the game.  A pilot who flies beautifully but can't land the plane is a bad pilot.  Sandra landed the plane, ultimately the only qualification for being deserving. 

[kikaha]

 I believe Sandra won it at the jury.  Nobody thought she had a shot.   I don't believe the heroes huddled together and decided beforehand, but it's  neither here nor there.  We will probably never know either way.

 

 I disagree there.  I don't think he changed his mind at all.  He knew there were enough votes to boot Coach, and that looked to me like his half-assed way of trying to get Coach's vote later on for the win.  

 

 

Parvati pleaded with Russell not to take Sandra.  She knew Sandra was almost impossible to beat, given that jury. 

 

As for huddling together at Ponderosa, I've read that's pretty common.  The heroes had already proven how easily they could fall into group think.  They convinced themselves of the imaginary 'women's alliance;' and the whole tribe of heroes made one of the dumbest moves in Survivor history, when they gave the idol to Russell. 

 

That group think continued in the voting.  All the heroes voted for Sandra.  OTOH the villains knew what really had gone on in their camp, and all of them but one voted for Parv.  The only one who didn't was Courtney, Sandra's bff. 

 

The Coach boot: before they left for tribal, Russell told Parvati and Danielle that he was wrong.  They should vote out Coach that night.  But Parv had already convinced Danielle they needed to boot Coach, which meant four votes were lined up against him.  I think Russell didn't care much either way, but by voting for Courtney he kept things smoother with Jerri. 

 

So I guess my overall view is that Sandra made a good move to get things started, but quickly this took on a life of its own, as Russell did change his mind (even if mildly) and Parv took the lead in pushing the boot through. I definitely don't think Sandra duped Russell: her goals and Parv's dovetailed then, and that's why Coach went home that night. 

[pennben]

 

Parvati pleaded with Russell not to take Sandra.  She knew Sandra was almost impossible to beat, given that jury.

 

Sandra worked over the heroes on the jury while they were still on the island.  She reached out to most and said "work with me, we can take Russell down, if you won't he's going to end up at the end".  Thus, when the final tribal council came, she was able to say "see, I wanted to work with you and wanted you to be here with me, not him" and that gave them a reason to say "she was right all along, I should have listened to her."  

 

Whether she intended to follow through on any of her "coup" attempts, who knows, but boy did she lay great groundwork as being the one that wanted to help those that eventially got voted out.

[NurseGiGi]

My first season to watch Survivor was South Pacific and I decided to go back and rewatch it and I'm glad I did because at the time I didn't understand  much of what was going on and why.  I then watched HvV and now understand why so many diehard fans talk about how the show has changed for the worse.  I loved that season and was thrilled to see actual strategy and gameplay.  I saw actual confessionals that gave me insight on why players made certain moves.  One of the highlights for me was seeing Tyson essentially vote himself out of the game thereby ruining Boston Rob's chances of winning.  The lowlights were seeing Coach again, who I truly can't stand, and being introduced to Russell Hantz.  

 

I'm now watching Tocantins, which I'm enjoying, and intend on streaming China after that.  Any suggestions on where to go from there?

 

I can't believe how much this show has changed but now understand why people who have watched from the beginning have stuck with it.  I know one thing.  I already thought the Collar season sucked but I'm baffled as to how Jeff or the players could think they could compare to seasons past.

 

P.S. - I really hate Coach.  I don't know how they managed to get Coach and Ozzy framed together while filming in South Pacific because, those egos.  Wow.

[ProfCrash]

Sandra worked over the heroes on the jury while they were still on the island.  She reached out to most and said "work with me, we can take Russell down, if you won't he's going to end up at the end".  Thus, when the final tribal council came, she was able to say "see, I wanted to work with you and wanted you to be here with me, not him" and that gave them a reason to say "she was right all along, I should have listened to her."  

 

Whether she intended to follow through on any of her "coup" attempts, who knows, but boy did she lay great groundwork as being the one that wanted to help those that eventially got voted out.

100% Amen.

 

I'll go further, Sandra is known for being intensely loyal. If she had succeeded in getting Russell out, she would have stuck with the Hero's. Sandra laid out everything that Russell was doing and the Hero's ignored her. They choose to believe someone they did not know, Russell, over someone they knew. You could argue, and some have, that shows that Sandra had a bad social game. I would argue it shows that the Hero's she was dealing with had their own heads so far up their own asses that they would not listen when someone was telling them they were wrong. Their egos were all so freaking huge that they would not listen to Sandra. There is not much that Sandra could have done about that.

 

Sandra was in a great position for that final tribal because she told the Hero's what was going to happen and that is exactly what happened. So either the Hero's could vote for Parvati or Russell who played them or the person who warned them and who they ignored. On top of that, Russell and Parvati knew that Sandra was gunning for them, there was one scene with Rupert and Sandra where Sandra flat out says that their conversation is going to be short because Russell did not want her talking to the any of the heros solo. Not 30 seconds later Russell comes looking for Sandra.

 

Russell and Parvati knew that Sandra was trying to vote them out and that Sandra had that going for her going to the final tribal. Parvati knew that Sandra was going to be hard to beat but Russell was convinced by his own greatness that Sandra had no shot to win. Hell, Sandra agreed with him. Sandra knew, unlike Sierra, that you don't tout why you might win to someone who is going to play a role in choosing who goes to the finals with you. So Sandra told Russell he was right, she had no chance of winning, then we have the talking head were she laughs at that notion.

 

Sandra let the egos play out the way they were going to play out. She warned Rupert and Colby and the others about Russell and they ignored her. They all went out. She let Russell think that he was going to win and got to the finals.

 

I have no problem with the Hero's voting for Sandra. If they were honest with themselves they knew that they were on the jury because they did not listen to Sandra. They had someone who was willing to work with them and change the numbers but they did not use her. That is on them. Sandra demonstrated that she knew what was happening in the game and how to change it. They didn't want to work with her, that was their own damn fault. They were on the jury because of their hubris. Add in that Sandra ended up in the finals after actively trying to take out the two people who took her to the finals.

 

Sandra deserved that win.

 

I fall into the camp that there is no such thing as a bitter jury. There is the jury that you create. If you are going to bully people and laugh at them and be an ass around camp, you should not be surprised that people will not vote for you. If you are I an alliance with someone who bullies people and laughs at them and is an ass around camp, and you participate which Parvati did, you should not be surprised when you do not win. I don't think that Parvati was surprised that she lost. She knew what happened out there. Russell, and to some extent Parvati, shit all over the people that they duped. They showed no respect and were pretty gleeful over what they did. When you offer up someone whose final argument came down to "I told you so. I told you what they were doing and you ignored me. I offered to work with you and you choose to try and work with them." what the hell do you think is going to happen?

 

Russell and Parvati were responsible for their behavior in camp, at challenges, and at tribal. If they couldn't figure out that mocking people regularly and dumping on them was going to cost them votes then they are idiots. Russell I can buy is a social idiot. Parvati is not. Sandra won because she played a good game. She might not have gotten the flip that she wanted but she rode that out. She won fair and square.

[enlightenedbum]

My first season to watch Survivor was South Pacific and I decided to go back and rewatch it and I'm glad I did because at the time I didn't understand  much of what was going on and why.  I then watched HvV and now understand why so many diehard fans talk about how the show has changed for the worse.  I loved that season and was thrilled to see actual strategy and gameplay.  I saw actual confessionals that gave me insight on why players made certain moves.  One of the highlights for me was seeing Tyson essentially vote himself out of the game thereby ruining Boston Rob's chances of winning.  The lowlights were seeing Coach again, who I truly can't stand, and being introduced to Russell Hantz.  

 

I'm now watching Tocantins, which I'm enjoying, and intend on streaming China after that.  Any suggestions on where to go from there?

 

I can't believe how much this show has changed but now understand why people who have watched from the beginning have stuck with it.  I know one thing.  I already thought the Collar season sucked but I'm baffled as to how Jeff or the players could think they could compare to seasons past.

 

P.S. - I really hate Coach.  I don't know how they managed to get Coach and Ozzy framed together while filming in South Pacific because, those egos.  Wow.

Watch the first season, because it's weird and different and totally worth watching.  Australia is a very strong season as well, for the most part.  I think strategy made a big leap with Amazon (6) with Cesternino.  If you enjoy Boston Rob and want to see a more immature, dickish version of same, watch All-Stars (8).  Otherwise don't.  Your tolerance of that season is entirely dependent on how much you like Rob.  I love Palau (10), even though it's just a horrible, ridiculous ass whooping by one tribe.  It has like all the cool people on it though so it's pretty fun.  Then I'd watch every season between Exile Island (12) and Micronesia (16).  That's what I'd consider the show's golden age, with a ton of fascinating characters, mostly appealing winners (give or take Aras/Todd), the single best episode in the show's history (it's in Fiji), the single most ridiculous decision everyone ever made (in Micronesia) and some very, very satisfying blindsides, including one of Ozzy which you'll probably enjoy immensely.

 

Plus: Cirie (twice)! Penner (twice)!  Yau (twice)! Courtney! Yul! Earl! Parvati (twice, though she kind of sucks the first time)! Just a ton of huge characters in those five seasons.

 

Ones I'd definitely skip: Thailand (4), Vanuatu (9... though it has some fun elements like Eliza the unkillabe cockroach), Guatemala (so much dickishness and the gay Mormon is the very worst one because he doesn't know it), Gabon (17), Samoa (19), and like everything after HvV, frankly.  As much as I love Kim, I can't recommend watching One World.  Disclaimer: I skipped both Blood vs. Waters for Colton and John Rocker reasons.

[NurseGiGi]

Thanks, enlightenedbum!  I almost watched Australia after HvV but decided on Tocantins, instead, and then realized I had chosen Coach's first season.  I kept watching despite his presence and I'm glad I did because it has been very entertaining so far.  So, I'm thinking I'll watch Australia after China.

 

Thanks again!

[LadyChatts]

Aw, I liked Guatemala (though apparently I'm one of few, I think even TPTB aren't crazy about that season lol)  I would agree about skipping Thailand and Vanuatu, along with Caramoan (unless you like meltdowns), Palau, Panama, Fiji, and anything after HvsV, minus Cagayan. 

 

My Survivor must-watches for any newbie are Borneo (to see where it all started, and to see just how different the game became after the fact), Marquesas, Amazon, Pearl Islands, Cook Islands, Micronesia, HvsV, and Cagayan.  I'm not really a fan of Outback, but considering it was still so new to everyone, and nearly half the cast has returned at least once, I think it's a good one to catch up on.  Those are some of the best in regards to game changers, personalities, and strategies.  My other personal favorites are China, Guatemala, Africa, and Tocantins, along with BvsW and Philippines.

Edited June 10, 2015 by LadyChatts

[Donny Ketchum]

Ones I'd definitely skip: Thailand (4), Vanuatu (9... though it has some fun elements like Eliza the unkillabe cockroach), Guatemala (so much dickishness and the gay Mormon is the very worst one because he doesn't know it), Gabon (17), Samoa (19), and like everything after HvV, frankly.  As much as I love Kim, I can't recommend watching One World.  Disclaimer: I skipped both Blood vs. Waters for Colton and John Rocker reasons.

Marquesas was actually season four.  Thailand was season five.

 

and anything after HvsV, minus Cagayan. 

Philippines was after Heroes vs. Villains, too, and that's one of my favorite seasons.

[KimberStormer]

Skip Philippines??  Heresy!  That's a season that could sit comortably amidst the greats.

 

The thing is ProfCrash that while being able to say, honestly & accurately, "if you listened to me you'd be here instead of me" is a great thing when you're actually facing the jury, the fact that you can say it means you must necessarily have been a total fool during the game!  Sandra tried pretty hard to lose, which is, paradoxically, what made her win.  I can't respect the Heroes for voting the way they did.  It sort of reminds me of Richard Blaise on Top Chef, who refused (probably to this day still refuses) to accept that Stephanie beat him, in favor of the fantasy that he "choked".  A strange case where blaming yourself is the selfish thing to do.

[kikaha]

Kimber, you said it better than I.  Sandra got rewarded for failure.  Failure in her one overriding strategy (to boot Russell), failure in her ability to sway the jury during the game itself.

[vb68]

One reason to watch Guatemala is it was the very first season that had a hidden immunity idol, so it is interesting to see that and to have a chronology of that.  I will also say that Brian C of that season absolutely deserved another shot as a returning  player.  Oh, and they damn near killed some of the cast in that first episode with the trek through the jungle.  So, there are reasons to watch it.

 

 On the flip side, other than that one episode of Fiji  (I think Parv playing her two idols in Hs v Vs is better if only because of the cast), I would skip that season.  Heck I like to pretend it never existed.  It's up there with Thailand.  Apologies to Yau, but the rest of the cast was awful and it had maybe the worst twist ever with the Have and Have-Nots. One tribe had actual bed to sleep in.  A bed!  At least for me, that one was a chore to get through.

Edited June 11, 2015 by vb68

[LadyChatts]

Marquesas was actually season four.  Thailand was season five.

 

Philippines was after Heroes vs. Villains, too, and that's one of my favorite seasons.

 

Oh, I like Philippines, too!  Everything after HvsV kind of blurs together for me, so I think I forget that season falls in there.  It is one of the more recent seasons I can get behind.  S25, 27, and 28 were the only bright spots after HvsV (so yes, there are a few worth checking out after that one).  Survivor started going downhill after Micronesia, for me anyway, with Tocantins and those 4 in the 20s being an exception.  In the early years, you could get one bad season of Survivor but typically the ones that followed and preceded it made up for how lackluster a season like Thailand could be.  Not so much anymore.  It's why I have such high hopes for Second Chances.  

 

In regards to Guatemala, I think it had a great and entertaining cast, but unfortunately it was overshadowed by the return of Stephenie and Bobby Jon (mainly Stephenie).  I would have liked to see how that season would have turned out had those two not been part of it.  Overall, it had a lot of great moments, though it reminded me a bit of this past season, where you hoped that something was going to go a certain way based on editing but it ended up not happening.  A lot of the better people were lost pre-merge in that season as well.  It's probably one of my favorite land locked locations, and despite the cast nearly killing themselves trying to get to camp, I enjoy those added elements, especially in the opening.  Paddling to shore, trekking through the outback, jungle, or desert.  They make it so easy now.  I feel like people making it to day 39 nowadays look so much better than people who made it to day 15 back in the day.  

Edited June 11, 2015 by LadyChatts

[Trick Question]

In regards to Guatemala, I think it had a great and entertaining cast, but unfortunately it was overshadowed by the return of Stephenie and Bobby Jon (mainly Stephenie).  I would have liked to see how that season would have turned out had those two not been part of it.

 

The big "hidden narrative" of S11 was that everyone hated Stephenie and she was clearly going to end as a Goat, not as a surefire winner.  I remember the general online reaction at the time being somewhat surprised that a) Danni won, and b) it was by such a lopsided vote, yet in hindsight it's very easy to see how Steph ticked everyone off given what we know about her rather obnoxious personality.  At the time, CBS couldn't focus on this since she was "America's Sweetheart" and whatnot; her ruining this image may be one of the reasons TPTB dislike the season.  Steph essentially became like Sugar, Matt von Ertfelda, S19 Russell or S23 Coach --- the seemingly big force CBS has been pushing the entire time as controlling the game based on what they're showing us, yet who actually has no shot in hell of winning over the jury.  The likes of Rafe or Lydia weren't "starstruck" by her presence, as their detractors claimed, but they wanted to take her to the end since she was dead meat in a FTC.  Rafe is a very underrated player, imo, and he's one of the ones I would've loved to see play the game again, though obviously his career is going swimmingly and he's done with Survivor. 

 

Todd just spewed bullshit to a dumb jury (like Jean Robert) and Amanda has poor social skills.  That's like the one time I do think the jury was just wrong.  Todd sucks.

Based on everything but the final tribal council, Amanda should've easily destroyed Todd in the final vote.  Amanda kept the main alliance on point, kept Todd from making some stupid moves, won immunities....she looked like the hands-down winner.  And then she proceeded to deliver one of the very worst FTC performances in Survivor history, perhaps only rivaled by her performance in front of the jury in FvF against Parvati.  Todd had two things going for him; he was a good talker, and he loved to portray himself as a real Survivor mastermind (even if his actual ploys in the game were often shaky at best).  You put these traits in a FTC against a self-destructing Amanda and it's no contest.  It was quite telling that Todd's four votes came from two people who had spent most of the game on the other tribe and thus were more apt to believe his spin on everything (Peih-Gee and Jamie), one douchey guy who likely wasn't going to vote for a female winner (Jean-Robert) and the wild card of Frosti, who didn't seem to have too much of a clue about what was going on about anything.  I personally figured he was a lock to vote for Courtney given their weird dynamic, yet I can also easily understand Frosti being swayed by whomever was the most impressive speaker.

[Trick Question]

Kimber, you said it better than I.  Sandra got rewarded for failure.  Failure in her one overriding strategy (to boot Russell), failure in her ability to sway the jury during the game itself.

I don't agree at all.  Sandra did nothing but 'sway the jury during the game itself.'  As others have pointed out, by telling the Heroes about Russell's dishonesty, she was in a win-win situation.  Either they...

 

a) vote as they did and get themselves picked off by the villains majority, which gives Sandra a great chance at getting to the end since the perceived "bigger threats" on the villains tribe would attack each other and allow her to do the 'I told you so' argument to the jury.

b) vote with Sandra and eliminate Russell at F10, which allows her to still slip through the cracks until the F6 for sure.  If the Heroes pick off the rest of the Villians in order, Sandra is the last Villain standing since she helped them out.  At F6 then, Sandra still probably slips through the cracks since the Heroes will turn on each other --- J.T. in particular was gung-ho about always going after the biggest threats whether it made the most sense or not.  I also like Sandra's chances since c'mon, she would've been playing against J.T., Colby, Rupert, Amanda and Candice; not exactly a bunch of Survivor geniuses.  Probably a couple of the dumb Heroes (like Russell) take Sandra along as a "goat" since they figure she isn't a threat and the villains would hate her for turning, only to watch in horror as she picked up most of their votes.  You don't think at least Jerri, Danielle and Parvati would've all voted for Sandra over any two of Rupert, Candice (both disliked), J.T. (playing the game way too hard and annoying everyone), Amanda (can't give a jury speech to save her life) or a completely half-assing it Colby?

[KimberStormer]

I don't believe, myself, that Sandra would have gotten anywhere in a Hero majority.  Several of them seemed to literally believe they were morally superior just because they were on that tribe (Rupert of course most obviously) and I don't believe they would have cannibalized themselves with a Villain around.  Nor do I think Sandra despite her vaunted "anyone but me" strategy (does she really have this strategy?  I've never seen any evidence for it) would have capitalized on it in any effective way.  Let's not forget that Sandra did not vote for Danielle!  Which is insane for her!  If Russell wasn't so dumb/losing his mind after 60-odd days in the jungle, and not voted for Danielle, Sandra would be 4th at best, and she did nothing about it.  Jerri saw what to do, not Sandra.

 

And JT is in fact a Survivor genius, playing probably the greatest social game ever played in Tocantins.  Amanda is no slouch either, despite her poor showing in FTCs.  Even if for some reason they took her to the end, I don't believe a single Hero, or Russell, Coach, Danielle, or Jerri would vote for her.  Courtney would, Parvati might.  The Heroes voted for her because they made her an Honorary Hero, but against any actual Hero, no way.

 

(Man that would have been an abysmal season had the Heroes gotten the upper hand...)

[kikaha]

(Man that would have been an abysmal season had the Heroes gotten the upper hand...)

 

They almost did, and probably would have, except Boston Rob pulled one IC victory after another out of the hat from nowhere, pre-merge.  Except for him, I think the villains would have been dead in the water. 

[choclatechip45]

 

Based on everything but the final tribal council, Amanda should've easily destroyed Todd in the final vote.  Amanda kept the main alliance on point, kept Todd from making some stupid moves, won immunities....she looked like the hands-down winner.  And then she proceeded to deliver one of the very worst FTC performances in Survivor history, perhaps only rivaled by her performance in front of the jury in FvF against Parvati.  Todd had two things going for him; he was a good talker, and he loved to portray himself as a real Survivor mastermind (even if his actual ploys in the game were often shaky at best).  You put these traits in a FTC against a self-destructing Amanda and it's no contest.  It was quite telling that Todd's four votes came from two people who had spent most of the game on the other tribe and thus were more apt to believe his spin on everything (Peih-Gee and Jamie), one douchey guy who likely wasn't going to vote for a female winner (Jean-Robert) and the wild card of Frosti, who didn't seem to have too much of a clue about what was going on about anything.  I personally figured he was a lock to vote for Courtney given their weird dynamic, yet I can also easily understand Frosti being swayed by whomever was the most impressive speaker.

Peih-Gee and Jamie were originally planing to vote for Amanda because they didn't like the way Todd played. Amanda was apparently much worse than what we saw on tv and both were considering voting for Courtney, but they both felt they had to give it to Todd based on his on his final tribal they both said Courtney was very good too.

[Hera]

And JT is in fact a Survivor genius, playing probably the greatest social game ever played in Tocantins.

I can't agree with this. JT is definitely charming (though, like Parvati, it seems to be something that needs to be experienced in person and doesn't really translate through the screen for me), but even if I accepted he was amazing in Tocantins (which I don't—charm isn't nothing, but it also isn't everything), any legacy he had would have been ruined by his decision to give a hidden immunity idol to a player he didn't know because of what he assumed about the dynamics of the tribe he wasn't on. Yes, he had other people (especially Rupert) egging him on, but that just means that those other people are dumb, too, for not thinking through the scenarios where at least one of their assumptions is wrong.

 

I have no idea what would have happened if Sandra's attempt to flip to the Heroes had been successful—it would have meant that Candice also stuck with the Heroes and the post-merge game would have been completely different. Given the prevalence of hidden immunity idols on the Villains' side (remember, Sandra found one late in the game, as well) and Parvati's immunity challenge performances, I'm not so sure the Heroes would have been able to Pagong the Villains outright or that Sandra wouldn't have been able to get to the end and pull off the win.

[choclatechip45]

Plus Sandra seemed to really play up the fact she sucked in challenges pretty much from day 1 on HvV which was obviously part of her strategy. I could see Jt/Rupert/Colby keeping her because she was easy to beat. I think the Heroes lost the game the minute they voted out Tom. I really doubt Tom would have thought Jt giving the idol away would be smart like Rupert and Colby did.

I've always thought both Parvati's social game was extremely overrated. She almost lost Micronesia the same way she lost HvV because she couldn't be nice to Eliza.

I don't know how I feel about JT's social game in Tocantins. I do think it was smart of him to play up the fact he was a good ol southern boy to everyone. His tribal council was brilliant. To be fair I've always thought Stephen was overrated.

Edited June 11, 2015 by choclatechip45

[ProfCrash]

JT made it as far as he did in Tocantins because of Stephen. JT won because he played a great social game and was totally willing and able to throw Stephen under the bus for whatever controversial decisions the two made. I don't think Stephen makes it to the end with JT. I think they were the perfect team and that they were able to play to each others strengths. It worked great but I don't think either one of them does as well without the other. It will be interesting to see how Stephen does this season.

 

JT demonstrated that he is not a genius player when he suggested giving Russell an immunity idol during HvV.

 

First of all, who gives away an immunity idol to someone that is not in their alliance. Second, why give an II to someone whose game you don't know? Russell's season had not aired so JT had no idea who Russell was. All he knew is that the Producers must have loved Russell because he was playing a second time and that he must have been a villain on his season because he is on the Villain tribe. So yeah, that is the person who I am going to give my idol to. ummmhmmm. One of the dumbest moves ever.

 

To top it off, JT is told, by Sandra, what Russell is planning on doing and JT chooses to ignore Sandra. His ego and thoughts of brilliance screwed him over.

 

Had the Hero's flipped, they would have kept Sandra around because they all bought into the Hero label. Sandra told them the Villains plan. She was loyal to her friends regardless of what tribe they were on. Rupert and JT and Colby would have bent over backwards to show hoe loyal they were to her.

 

Saying that Sandra did not play well because she could not convince some of the most egotistical players in Survivor history that they were blind and seeing the game wrong is a bit silly. That is like saying that Jenn, Hali and Joe should have found a way to convince Sierra and Dan that they were at the bottom of their alliance. Mike knew that he was at the bottom, hence the idol desperation and some of his side alliances and conversations. Dan was so bought into being loyal and not flipping, being a hero, that he sank his own game. He would rather go out at six then flip and make it to the finale. Jenn and Hali said they spent plenty of time pointing out the numbers to Dan and Dan completely ignored them. We saw Dan ignoring Shirin, which we expected because of their relationship, but I have no doubt he had similar conversations with Hali and Jenn and he behaved in the exact same fashion.

 

So why are we saying that Sandra played a bad game because she couldn't deflate some of the largest egos to ever play the game? Sandra saw the game for what it was. She tried to change the game but couldn't convince the egos who were sooooo smart and soooooo right that they were wrong. When she couldn't make head way in that area, she played the game as best as she could. She played Russell's ego all the way to the end and she won.

 

Sandra plays a very subtle game but she plays it well. She gets good TV time because she is savy, she sees the game as it is playing. She has some amazing one liners and talking heads and some great conversations in game. Russell knew that he couldn't trust Sandra, that is why he was baby sitting her. Russell knows that Sandra doesn't like him but she is able to convince Russell to take her to the end. "You're right Russell, I can't win." followed by one of the best talking heads ever.

 

Sandra is a hustler. She knows what is happening and goes with the flow. She tries to change the game when she can but if she can't, she adjusts and moves on. She rocks.

[Skeeter22]

I just rewatched Tocantins. Stephen is a great player, but he never would have had a chance to get that far in the game had it not been for JT. After the merge, people were falling all over themselves to align with JT. After a single day with him, Brendan and Coach wanted to take him to the end. JT was the one who put the target on Brendan's back by telling Coach that Brendan had the only idol in the game, even though he knew Taj had an idol as well. I think JT was winning that season with or without Stephen. Stephen has always said their strategic game was a joint effort, and there's no reason to doubt him. He got manipulated throughout the game by JT, especially in that last tribal council. He knew JT was a charming liar, and he still fell for it.

Generally, I don't think a poor showing a second time out means a survivor winner is a bad player. Sometimes things just don't go in your favor. If Stephen plays a lackluster game this time out, it doesn't mean he's terrible at Survivor.

[ProfCrash]

I don't think that JT is an awful player, I just don't think he is a genius. He was an important part of a powerful duo. I don't think JT does as well without Stephen and I know Stephen does not do as well without JT.

 

Rob C is still a very good Survivor player even with his early boot in All Stars. Hell, Boston Rob took four tries to win the game and people think he is a freaking genius.

 

And Sandra won both times that she played and people still argue that she is not all that great of a player.

 

(shrugs)

 

I'll take Sandra's track record over JT or Boston Rob's any day of the week.

 

Survivor is a game that involves a lot of luck, reading the room and adjusting your game play, and some skill. Sandra won twice. JT won once and played awfully the second time. Russell couldn't win if you hand pick a tribe for him to win. Parvati won once, played really well another time, and lost her first time out.

[vb68]

 

And Sandra won both times that she played and people still argue that she is not all that great of a player.

 

I  don't think Sandra is a genius ( I'm not sure who that would apply to in a Survivor context honestly), but winning twice isn't something that that can be downplayed either IMO.

 

Re-watching the Philippines, I'm really glad that Abi is getting a second chance.  Not that she was a shrinking violet by any means, but that piling on her  felt quite excessive.  I didn't think that was a good look for anyone, particularly Denise.  I thought it was rather arrogant and mean to flatout say there wasn't any cultural gap.  It looked like some of it was, and Jeff stated the same thing.  I didn't see her shit talking  the rest of them that they were awful people the way they did her, at least until she felt attacked.  I don't know.  I think Denise was quite nasty in her own way with the way she talked to and about Abi.  And I think Abi  had a point that Denise was using her status as a therapist to rub it in.    I'll really be interested to see how Abi plays a second time.

Edited June 11, 2015 by vb68

[KimberStormer]

Well, I feel like I've made my case about JT's HvV game a few too many times.  I love the way he played, a fearless high-risk high-reward game.  Obviously it didn't work out, but I still love it.  I think he was a terrible juror but an amazing player.

 

I like Stephen (Tyson blindside was great), but I think people way overstate how important he was to JT's game.  I agree with @Skeeter22, Stephen needed him more than he needed Stephen, and JT made mincemeat of him in the final tribal.

 

Saying that Sandra did not play well because she could not convince some of the most egotistical players in Survivor history that they were blind and seeing the game wrong is a bit silly.

 

That she couldn't do it is not the issue.  That she tried at all is the issue.  If I try to deliberately score an own goal in soccer, but miss, I'm not bad at soccer because I can't score, I'm bad because I'm doing the wrong thing!  Sandra was trying to do something that would have been terrible for her game. (I don't think Sandra is "bad at Survivor", but I do think she didn't play well in the HvV post-merge.)

[choclatechip45]

It really amazes me how much people discredit the fact Sandra won twice! Yes luck played a huge part in both, clearly she did something right!

[kikaha]

 

She tried to change the game but couldn't convince the egos who were sooooo smart and soooooo right that they were wrong.

 

Now you've put your finger on the real problem.  The massive egos of the heroes on the jury.  Those crushed egos gave the win to the person who did the least in defeating them. 

 

Similar to what happened in All-Stars.  (Though Rob ended up the biggest winner of that season anyway.  The single biggest achievement in Survivor history IMO.) 

 

Interesting that two of the worst jury decisions (IMO) came in all-star seasons.  I wonder if the enormous all-star egos make for lousy jurors, when all grouped together? 

[LadyChatts]

It really amazes me how much people discredit the fact Sandra won twice! Yes luck played a huge part in both, clearly she did something right!

 

I would have to agree with this.  While I would have given the win to Parvati, who I think played a better game overall and really had an uphill battle, you have to be doing something right to be able to win this game twice.  I could say it was luck one time, but twice?  Especially with Sandra being as outspoken as she is.  Someone like Amber won thanks to Rob, but since they got married, essentially the jury still gave a win to Rob anyway.  I couldn't see Amber being successful in this game without having someone's coattails to ride.  Though it's been many years, so maybe she'd end up proving me wrong.  Hopefully I never find out.

 

On the heroes side of the tribes, I thought it was a pretty weak group and loosely defined with some of their casting choices (though what else is new in the returnee seasons), so I'm glad the villains triumphed in the end.

[choclatechip45]

I'm a huge Rob fan, but him loosing was his own fault. He made too many pre game alliances. This is coming from someone who hates Lex!

[enlightenedbum]

I'm a huge Rob fan, but him loosing was his own fault. He made too many pre game alliances. This is coming from someone who hates Lex!

I think Rob saw what Cesternino did (basically have a good relationship with everyone) and then naturally built off of that to basically have a partnership with everyone.  He made two mistakes though:

 

1) He promised too much.

2) He misread which votes he had a shot at in the end.  He thought he could get 2 of Kathy, Tom, Lex, and Alicia and ignored Shii Ann, who he probably could have gotten.  But who knows what the hell goes on in that woman's head, so maybe not.

Edited June 11, 2015 by enlightenedbum

[LadyChatts]

Lex was an idiot that I don't think he needed to be asked by Rob to keep Amber safe.  The way his game was going he probably would have kept her around regardless.  And yes, I'm sure pre-game alliances had something to do with the loyalty with or without Rob asking.  It's been a very long time since I've watched AS or the reunion, but did anything ever get brought up about pre-game alliances by Jeff?  I remember Rob calling Lex out for having deals with other people, and he didn't feel he could trust him completely.  But it's been awhile, so my memory might be fuzzy.  Lex screwed himself, but I think Rob played way too hard.  Still deserved the win, though.

[enlightenedbum]

Tom confirmed the pre-game plan to flip to Lex after the merge, but other than that I don't know.

[choclatechip45]

Tom, Lex, Kathy and Rob had a final 4 deal before All stars started.

[Donny Ketchum]

Well, I feel like I've made my case about JT's HvV game a few too many times.  I love the way he played, a fearless high-risk high-reward game.  Obviously it didn't work out, but I still love it.  I think he was a terrible juror but an amazing player.

Amazing player after he made his entire tribe distrustful of him and the other tribe, as well.  Hmm. . . . Okay, then.  If you say so, @KimberStormer.

[cherrypj]

Tom confirmed the pre-game plan to flip to Lex after the merge, but other than that I don't know.

 

Everyone but Kathy voted for Lex (I just watched that episode).

 

Maybe Rob was right to split Lex & Tom. I don't think it would have mattered, though: Lex didn't have the numbers, even if Big Tom flips.

 

What stunned me about the episode, among all the tears and vows to quit (mostly Kathy), was her statement: "Lex was proud to take you to the final four!"

 

Okaaaay.

[henripootel]

First of all, who gives away an immunity idol to someone that is not in their alliance. Second, why give an II to someone whose game you don't know? Russell's season had not aired so JT had no idea who Russell was. All he knew is that the Producers must have loved Russell because he was playing a second time and that he must have been a villain on his season because he is on the Villain tribe. So yeah, that is the person who I am going to give my idol to. ummmhmmm. One of the dumbest moves ever.

More like one of the most blatantly illegal moves ever.  Is it not in the contestant rulebook that you cannot interact with other tribes except as proscribed during a challenge?  It's crap like this which make me think that most of the 'great players', particularly those famed for 'game play', are really just producer stooges who get a flattering edit.  Case in point - I don't remember being impressed at all with JT's game in HvV.  It's on Amazon - I'm going in for a re-watch.

[LadyChatts]

More like one of the most blatantly illegal moves ever.  Is it not in the contestant rulebook that you cannot interact with other tribes except as proscribed during a challenge?  It's crap like this which make me think that most of the 'great players', particularly those famed for 'game play', are really just producer stooges who get a flattering edit.  Case in point - I don't remember being impressed at all with JT's game in HvV.  It's on Amazon - I'm going in for a re-watch.

 

I think once upon a time there might have been that rule.  In talking about AS I remember when Rob approached Lex, there seemed to be some outcry online that he shouldn't have been allowed to interact with him at all.  I thought I remembered Jeff even breaking the two up.  I don't know about the rule now or how relaxed it is.  Anymore I think this show makes itself up as it goes along.  If they think it'll make for great TV-fantastic!  If not, they step in.  JTs move is definitely the former.  Why he would chose to give it to Russell was beyond me, but the only thing I thought at the time was because Russell's season hadn't aired, and he was new to the Survivor family, maybe they assumed he had no pre-game allies.  In regards to JT, I remember him being a good ol'country boy.  But that season and game belonged to Stephen for me.  I didn't notice it on the first viewing, but in re-watching, Stephen's game play was very underrated and I believe JT has him to thank for the million.

[henripootel]

Why he would chose to give it to Russell was beyond me, but the only thing I thought at the time was because Russell's season hadn't aired, and he was new to the Survivor family, maybe they assumed he had no pre-game allies.

 

I'm a known suspicious Aloysius but this is for me one of the absolute clearest indications of producer interference.  Were it anyone other than Russell (whom Probst had a mysterious boner for at the time), I'd feel less certain.  Shit, they even bent the known rules to make this one happen.

 

We all know that pregame alliances exist so a question for you Survivor scholars - how sure are we that these help folks win games?  Survive the early votes, sure, but do these really bear out?

[enlightenedbum]

Everyone but Kathy voted for Lex (I just watched that episode).

 

Maybe Rob was right to split Lex & Tom. I don't think it would have mattered, though: Lex didn't have the numbers, even if Big Tom flips.

 

What stunned me about the episode, among all the tears and vows to quit (mostly Kathy), was her statement: "Lex was proud to take you to the final four!"

 

Okaaaay.

Lex didn't have the numbers to make it worth it for Tom to flip.  Had he kept Jerri and we enter a Lex, Kathy, Jerri, Shii Ann, Tom, Alicia, Rupert, Jenna, Rob F9, the intention was to flip to Lex and Kathy.  I would suspect the planned boot order would have been Rupert, Alicia, Jenna, Rob, Shii Ann, Jerri and wouldn't that season have sucked.

[choclatechip45]

 

We all know that pregame alliances exist so a question for you Survivor scholars - how sure are we that these help folks win games?  Survive the early votes, sure, but do these really bear out?

The only person I think pre-game alliances helped is Amber. That is because Rob had a bunch of pre game alliances going on with Lex, Big Tom and probably Alicia (Rob C has talked about how much he hung out with Boston Rob and Alicia the summer before all-stars) once he voted those people out they weren't going to vote for of the blurred lines between game and friendship. Playing Survivor with friends can be very dangerous IMO because of the money at stake.

[Trick Question]

First of all, who gives away an immunity idol to someone that is not in their alliance. Second, why give an II to someone whose game you don't know? Russell's season had not aired so JT had no idea who Russell was. All he knew is that the Producers must have loved Russell because he was playing a second time and that he must have been a villain on his season because he is on the Villain tribe. So yeah, that is the person who I am going to give my idol to. ummmhmmm. One of the dumbest moves ever.

While JT giving away the idol was inarguably a stupid move, I have to counter the 'he shouldn't have trusted Russell since he must've done something villainous to be on the Villain tribe!' argument.  As many have pointed out on this very message board, the Hero/Villain designation used by the producers was pretty shaky, so it's likely the players themselves took it with a big grain of salt (except for blowhard Rupert).  For all JT knew, Russell was a player who played the same aggressively and was edited in a somewhat evil way in his initial appearance and was actually trustworthy.  Of course, the fact that JT knew NONE of this since he hadn't seen Russell's season and had no clue about the guy whatsoever was the big flaw in his plan from the start.

[Trick Question]

I don't believe, myself, that Sandra would have gotten anywhere in a Hero majority.  Several of them seemed to literally believe they were morally superior just because they were on that tribe (Rupert of course most obviously) and I don't believe they would have cannibalized themselves with a Villain around....

 

....Even if for some reason they took her to the end, I don't believe a single Hero, or Russell, Coach, Danielle, or Jerri would vote for her.  Courtney would, Parvati might.  The Heroes voted for her because they made her an Honorary Hero, but against any actual Hero, no way.

It's obviously impossible to state with certainty what might've happened since if Russell or Parvati go out at F10, that totally changes everything.  (Plus you have other factors like immunity idols being rehidden and whatnot.)  But I totally think that Sandra would more than stand a chance in a F3 against any of the two heroes.  I feel confident that Sandra would've easily out-talked Amanda in a FTC.  Candice didn't seem to be respected by anyone.  Rupert was rather openly disliked by everyone.  Colby was just taking up space out there, and I can't see a jury too eager to reward him for a Dan Lembo-esque performance. 

 

J.T. was hustling hard and (had he stayed) might've bolstered his case with an immunity run, yet such a run also might've made him a threat to be turned on as the game went on; I could see Sandra, Amanda and Candice teaming with any remaining villains for some Black Widow Brigade-esque action to oust J.T. at some point.  If J.T. did get to the end with Sandra and another hero, he's pretty much the only one I could see with a shot at beating her.  THAT BEING SAID, Sandra could then simply say that "if it wasn't for me, J.T. would've trusted Russell and been eliminated ages ago" and that's a pretty open-and-shut argument.  The villains would've all had a pretty low opinion of JT's game and intelligence as evidenced by their laughing over his ridiculous letter, so I'm not sure any number of immunity wins could've erased that.  (Though Russell absolutely wouldn't have voted Sandra to win under any circumstances.)

[kikaha]

I think Rob saw what Cesternino did (basically have a good relationship with everyone) and then naturally built off of that to basically have a partnership with everyone.  He made two mistakes though:

 

1) He promised too much.

2) He misread which votes he had a shot at in the end.  He thought he could get 2 of Kathy, Tom, Lex, and Alicia and ignored Shii Ann, who he probably could have gotten.  But who knows what the hell goes on in that woman's head, so maybe not.

 

I think the only 'mistake' Rob made was deciding pretty early on to take Amber to the end.  But even then he really ended up winning overall, probably more than anyone else who ever played the game: he took the woman he loved to the finals (she would have gotten booted before merge without him)... he married her... they got first and second place prizes in the game, basically together... years later they are together, appear happy and compatible, complete with their own family... and Rob turned his performance that season into an interesting, successful career that perfectly fits his abilities. Nothing I can think of comes close to matching all that. 

 

IMO Rob easily could have won that season.  He took a different path, and that made all the difference. 

[KimberStormer]

Amazing player after he made his entire tribe distrustful of him and the other tribe, as well.  Hmm. . . . Okay, then.  If you say so, @KimberStormer.

 

Yep, I love his HvV game!  The villain of the Hero tribe--the only Hero who seemed to be really playing--a slippery, creative, bold game, a fun game to watch.  God I wish everyone who came back played like JT or Parvati, just balls-to-the-wall all-or-nothing Survivor.

 

It really amazes me how much people discredit the fact Sandra won twice! Yes luck played a huge part in both, clearly she did something right!

 

I mean if you want to read me that way that's fine, but I think Sandra played great in Pearl Islands, and pretty good pre-merge, and again good towards the end of HvV, and of course magnificent in the final tribal.  I just think she played lousy post-merge, and it's sort of fascinating that it was that week or two of playing terribly that won her the game.

[Donny Ketchum]

Yep, I love his HvV game!  The villain of the Hero tribe--the only Hero who seemed to be really playing--a slippery, creative, bold game, a fun game to watch.  God I wish everyone who came back played like JT or Parvati, just balls-to-the-wall all-or-nothing Survivor.

That's fine.  I just think the fact that J.T. was pretty much hated and distrusted by his entire tribe means he played a game that was pretty much not one to love or respect.  That's all.