S04.E09: The Watchers On The Wall 2014.06.08

[GreyBunny]

I thought the need for flaming arrows was supposed to be about visibility since it was a night scene.

 

It had to be for the benefit of the TV audience.  If I were in battle I wouldn't want the enemy to see my arrows coming and have time to duck out of the way. 

[mac123x]

It had to be for the benefit of the TV audience.  If I were in battle I wouldn't want the enemy to see my arrows coming and have time to duck out of the way. 

 

Exactly.  I really didn't understand why Ygritte kept setting her arrows on fire.  It wasn't like Castle Black was loaded with incendiary materials that she could ignite, and the courtyard seemed pretty well illuminated already.

[lovetowrite73]

 

The White Walkers should have attacked Mance's army from the north.

 

I thought that was one of the reasons why they lit the great fire?

 

 

I really didn't understand why Ygritte kept setting her arrows on fire.

 

She didn't. In the scene when she sees Jon fighting the Thenn, she wasn't lighting her arrows.

 

I enjoyed the episode for what it was. I told my BF while we were watching "I bet people will be pissed that Stannis didn't show up in the episode." LOL I see why they didn't and I don't think it'll lose its impact if show in the next episode. I've done a good job of separating the show from the books (I'm a TB fan and they veered so far off-course from the SS books that I learned to appreciate both media for what they were) so I don't mind the changes. The only complaint I really had was that it was really dark and it was hard to tell who was who.

[Avaleigh]

Sorry, I should have clarified that I thought they were using flaming arrows for visibility because they were shooting a night scene.

There's a moment when Ygritte dodges a flaming arrow and one gets the sense that she likely wouldn't have seen it had it not been on fire. Similarly, I imagine they thought it would be easier for audiences to catch a small moment like that with a flaming arrow--it just looks more dramatic. The arrow that finally hit her wasn't aflame because there wasn't really a need for it visually.

[smcallah]

They changed (simplified the backstory I geuss) Aemon's background a little bit by noting he was heir to the throne instead of an unlikely heir.

 

It was Aemon's younger brother, Aegon, that was the unlikely heir, being the 4th son of a 4th son.  Aemon turned down the crown after being selected by the Great Council to be king and his brother Aegon became the unlikely king, Aegon V, Aegon the Unlikely.  Aemon decided to join the Night's Watch after that so he could not be used in a plot to usurp his younger brother's crown.  

 

The show however made it unlikely that Aemon would be king because they changed his parentage to simplify his relationship to Danaerys so show viewers wouldn't be confused I guess.  Aemon was an uncle to the Mad King Aerys in the books, but in the show they say he was Aerys' brother.

[benteen]

You're right, Aegon was the unlikely heir.  Although Aemon was a pretty unlikely choice himself.

[smcallah]

You're right, Aegon was the unlikely heir.  Although Aemon was a pretty unlikely choice himself.

 

Although, now that I think about it, the show has made Aemon a very likely heir.  Since Aerys would only be about 60 years old if he was alive, and Aemon is definitely older than 60.  The show has never said how old the Mad King was though.

[Fen]

I only wish Stannis showed up this episode -- the powers-that-be could certainly have turned a single episode into two or more night battles (I think that would have done wonders to show how ragged/worn down the Night's Watch is and why they're so relived when Stannis shows up to save the day).  Even with the extra ten minutes in next week's episode, I fear that the Stannis development will get lost - especially since the show really likes to end its seasons on Dany and her dragons.

 

I totally agree.  I know that there's a bit more of a break in the book before Stannis shows up, but really - they're deviating in lots of other ways - so why not with this? 

 

Stannis can not get any respect anywhere.  I feel the show blew it.  It was an opportune time to get the audience to root for Stannis instead of fast forwarding through his scenes.

 

It is the one great thing Stannis does in the books, and it is going to get lost when Tyrion kills Twyin.

 

No respect.  Absolutely none.

 

I'm really hoping they turn it around next week - but if not, I'm tempted to agree.  It's one of the moments where you can 100% cheer him on, and if they can't give him that....well.

[Maximum Taco]

It was Aemon's younger brother, Aegon, that was the unlikely heir, being the 4th son of a 4th son.  Aemon turned down the crown after being selected by the Great Council to be king and his brother Aegon became the unlikely king, Aegon V, Aegon the Unlikely.  Aemon decided to join the Night's Watch after that so he could not be used in a plot to usurp his younger brother's crown.  

 

The show however made it unlikely that Aemon would be king because they changed his parentage to simplify his relationship to Danaerys so show viewers wouldn't be confused I guess.  Aemon was an uncle to the Mad King Aerys in the books, but in the show they say he was Aerys' brother.

 

He is the uncle of the Mad King in the show.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pozI5n6A_Io

 

"My father was Maekar, first of his name. My brother Aegon reigned after him when I had refused the throne, and he was followed by his son Aerys, whom they called the Mad King"

Edited June 10, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[mac123x]

Aemon was an uncle to the Mad King Aerys in the books, but in the show they say he was Aerys' brother.

 

Aemon is Aerys's uncle in the show, great-uncle in the books.  In both continuities, Aemon is Aegon V's brother:

 

Aegon ---> [Jaehaerys] ---->Aerys ---->  Dany, Visaerys, Rhaegar.

 

The show clipped out a generation in removing Jaehaerys from the family tree.

[dr pepper]

One thing, i'm surprised no one has mentioned, but it seemed to me that When Ygritte saw Jon Snow fighting, she looked extremely conflicted. Cue Joan Jett singing "I Hate Myself for Loving You". I fully expected that Ygritte would draw on Jon, but as she loosed there'd be a slight jerk and she'd shoot the wilding he was fighting instead. Then she'd react with a mixture of confusion, shame, and relief. And then we'd be done with her and The Littlest Archer could have his revenge.

[Tippi]

I liked the episode more on my second viewing.  I think there was so much battle stuff going on that on my second watch I could appreciate the small moments that so many of the characters had.  I would never have thought Thorne could be anything other than a jerk and I was actually surprised to be rooting for him.  Even his face had a much better appearance when he went into bravado mode!  I also love any little snippets of Targaryen history, and always hope to get a little direwolf action in any episode. So not bad, but definitely the weakest of the penultimate episodes.

[yellowfred]

I agree with others who've said that this episode would have been a lot better if they'd included more of the strategy on the part of the Night's Watch.  One of the things I've always liked about this series is that people tend to win fights for actual reasons, not just because they're the protagonists (more or less).  They did an okay job, in my opinion, of showing that on the north side of the wall, but much less so on the south.  On some levels, I really wish they'd kept them as seperate attacks, with Jon initially defending Castle Black from the attack from the south with a skeleton crew and some mostly useless villagers, but I get why they would want to combine the two attacks.

 

So, weirdly, I was really liking Thorne this episode, which made me kind of root for him to die.  Not to borrow to heavily from The Dark Knight, but I feel like he was either going to die heroically now or go back to being a huge asshole later.  I'm definitely going to miss Pyp and Grenn, but I kind of had a feeling pretty early on that we were going to be losing them, and I was pretty pleased with how it happened.  

 

I feel like this episode would have been a lot better if they'd been willing to put it earlier in the season.  I think they've been struggling to maintain the urgency of the wall storyline and it made me, at least, kind of lose interest for a while.  I might have actually put this episode second or third, then maybe let the rest of the season at the Wall be Jon dealing with Stannis and Melisandre, at some point going to Craster's Keep, and then ending with the election for Lord Commander.  

 

Personally, I wasn't expecting Stannis to show up this episode, since he shows up fairly late into the battle in the books, but I guess, considering how much they were already condensing things, they could have easily included him coming to save the day, if they'd wanted to.  I do think it would have been too similar to the end of Blackwater, though, which I imagine is why they didn't include it.  I agree, though, that the way they ended the episode was a bit weak.

[GreyBunny]

I totally agree.  I know that there's a bit more of a break in the book before Stannis shows up, but really - they're deviating in lots of other ways - so why not with this? 

 

I kept waiting for Stannis Stannis STANNIS! to show up aaaaaaand...nope.  

 

All Grenn and pals had to do was light a barrel of oil, roll it to the giant, and then run.  Poor guys.

Edited June 11, 2014 by GreyBunny

[sev]

One thing, i'm surprised no one has mentioned, but it seemed to me that When Ygritte saw Jon Snow fighting, she looked extremely conflicted. Cue Joan Jett singing "I Hate Myself for Loving You". I fully expected that Ygritte would draw on Jon, but as she loosed there'd be a slight jerk and she'd shoot the wilding he was fighting instead. Then she'd react with a mixture of confusion, shame, and relief. And then we'd be done with her and The Littlest Archer could have his revenge.

Staying on the 80's hair-metal cue, someone had a clip on youtube where they added Bon Jovi to the bit when Ygritte gets the arrow: "Shot through the heart. And you're to blame. Darlin', you give love a bad name." *g*

[ffaristocrat]

Pretty sure there was no more oil left.

[kathykathy]

Ok I actually made an account for this hot mess travesty of an episode. What the purple Frick was that?! Where was the beautifully masterminded strategic withdrawal and the blowing the stairs? Why was the north attack and the south attack the same battle? I adored that book scene (this is book talk, right?) with the straw nights watch and the moving people to safety up the wall (though they killed moles town in the show, so who would they move...) and the hubris of the wildlings all bunched up on the stairs certain of their victory, then- bam!

Sure, Jon Snow and his badass sword fighting is cool and all, but not half as cool as the strategic defeat of the wildlings south of the wall by a handful of men!

We were robbed. If they want to cut stuff, cut the torture porn and sex scenes, but that castle black defense was one of the best chapters of any of the books, IMO.

ITA!  I liked the show, as it was, but couldn't understand why the excitement of the book wasn't incuded! The stairs, the straw men.

[DigitalCount]

I'm pretty sure they had the straw men, they just didn't say anything about it. In that early scene where they're lighting up the torches I could have sworn there were fake dudes standing at attention. They were either made of straw or some of the most disciplined soldiers I've ever seen.

[benteen]

Deleted scene maybe.

[jeansheridan]

They could have easily made it feel like days of battle without adding much to the budget.  That is just writing.  They went for a Black Water vibe which was all wrong.  If they had shown them tired and drooping and CGI wilding corpses on that field....we would have seen their odds.  We were told not shown.  A major writing flaw.   This could have felt like 33 Minutes from BSG season 1.  Everyone drained and done.

 

I think Kit has grown into his role. I don't feel he saved the day single handedly but directed his minimal resources well.  We know he is one of the few fully trained fighters so I would expect him to fight well.  And who knew he had an extra hard skull?

[WearyTraveler]

I think Kit has grown into his role.

 

I agree.  Sometimes I could almost hear Ned Stark's voice in Jon Snow's head, giving him instructions on battle strategy and telling him about the voice a leader ought to have so that men would hear and follow his commands during the fighting.  I was pleasantly surprised.

[Hecate7]

The bit with his face on the anvil strained credibility for me. That Thenn isn't the Mountain, but I would expect Snow's nose at least to be broken, and his face to be unrecognizable for weeks, even months to come, after that smash. Maybe this is like that thing with the dragon eggs....

Edited June 12, 2014 by Hecate7

[WearyTraveler]

The bit with his face on the anvil strained credibility for me. That Thenn isn't the Mountain, but I would expect Snow's nose at least to be broken, and his face to be unrecognizable for weeks, even months to come, after that smash. Maybe this is like that thing with the dragon eggs....

Maybe Jon Snow is just extremely hard-headed. :)

[dr pepper]

I have one last comment on this episode before we get gutpunched by the next one.

 

At one point Ygritte refers to the "southerners" putting the Wall on "our land" and claiming it. Apparently even beyond the Wall, they've forgotten what it's really for.

 

 

And a comment on the season as a whole. In spite of my fears about the show running out of book, i think the pacing would have been better with 12 episodes.

[ffaristocrat]

There were no strawmen to draw fire because the notion of any wildlings on the ground being able to shoot that high was always ridiculous.

[Holmbo]

I'm pretty sure they had the straw men, they just didn't say anything about it. In that early scene where they're lighting up the torches I could have sworn there were fake dudes standing at attention. They were either made of straw or some of the most disciplined soldiers I've ever seen.

Yes I saw NW dummies where put out at the edge of the wall. Like ffaristocrat said they where not important because wildlings couldn't shoot that far. The idea with them in the show was probably to make the approaching wildlings think that more people where manning the wall.

[John Potts]

Loved Sam's "Well, the Vows leave a little wiggle room..." Did think it was a believable conversation between two men in that situation, though.

Loved Sam going, "You were in love?" to Maester Aemon and his "Is that so hard to imagine!?"

What happened to "One blast for Wildling, Two for Rangers, 3 for Walkers?" They were blowing that horn like there was no tomorrow (which for many of the brothers... there won't be).

Glad Sam turned out to be the one who rallied his Brothers (really not a fan of Book Sam's continual, "I'm a coward! And fat! I'm a fat coward!").

"We're going to die!" Pyp(?)
"We will if you keep missing!" (Sam)
...
"Got one!" Pyp(?)
"Oh, so it's all over then!?" Sam

"You're right - it's a bad plan. What's your plan?" Jon
"Errr..." Sam

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 3:07 AM, AzureOwl said:

So the wildling arrows don’t come anywhere near the top of the Wall, but the giants’ arrows do!

Loved that! I was watching the archers firing arrows up and going "No way would those reach the top from there..." and then the giant pulls out his 20'(?) bow. OK, I doubt it's arrows would reach the top either (and I'm sure it wouldn't throw men into the air like it showed at that range), but I'm prepared to handwave that.

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 3:35 AM, benteen said:

Although color me shocked that they didn't manage to squeeze in some unnecessary nudity tonight...

I know - I was thinking "Where are the boobs? Where are the Boobs!?

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 4:19 AM, Blue Nocturne said:

I was a bit disconcerted at how much relief I felt when we cut back to Gilly and Slynt and saw that there was no rape, no attempted rape, no evidence that Gilly had to fight him off or anything.

Me too. Mind you, I'd back Gilly against Janos, particularly if he threatened little Sam.

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 6:02 AM, AuntiePam said:

Did not like Ygritte hesitating, getting shot by the kid, then dying in Jon's arms and the dying words.  Fan service, not realistic, sappy, trite.

Every time I see a somebody holding somebody tenderly while they die, I think, "Very considerate of everyone to stop for them!"

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 1:05 PM, Haleth said:

I love that Thorne's character was not assaulted.  Yeah, he can be a stubborn jerk but his speech was rousing and showed him to be a true man of the Watch.

That was great - sure, the guy is a jerk, but he did actually give Jon some good advice (which he took when he sent his brothers to their probable - and as it turned out, actual -  deaths)

Edited June 27, 2018 by John Potts