Heather Thomson: Inventor of Yummie Tummie

[Jel]

So, when Beth in her most current Bravo blog, writes--

This doesn't mean that when I'm going through some personal sh-- that I want people up in my grill.

--is she, too, stepping outside the lines? According to various Googles, "up in my grill" is a phrase tied to hip-hop culture--for example, from http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7556/all-up-in-my-grill

Grill" refers to jewelry that some people wear on their teeth. It is prevalent in hip-hop culture, where it is a way to show off one's "bling" - or wealth - when you smile.

Is Beth, like apparently Heather, engaging in cultural appropriation or just tossing off a slang phrase? Later and I fear far more disturbingly she writes--

I approached Heather, because I really didn't want this to become some insane Housewife rivalry that it isn't. She came on strong. I backed up. That is it. Different strokes for different folks.

-- revealing a strange, yet profound affinity for bad '70s sitcoms. Beth-- full of surprises, that one.....

Yes and no. In my view, there are two ways to use these expressions: one, in a cultural appropriation way (where one uses words to identify with a particular culture when they aren't part of it and so they haven't really "earned the right" for lack of a better term, to use it) and two in an ironic way, meaning "look at me being a jackass saying something that I know isnt really isn't mine, but doing it in a kind of laughing at myself kind of way".  That's how I have always taken Bethenny's use of expressions like "up in my grill", whereas Heather's use of "holla" and her telling "no one bout nuttin" comes across as more serious, designed to give her some credibility where she doesn't seem to have earned it, the "mean streets" of Diddy's executive board room meetings notwithstanding.  

 

But if Bethenny is using "up in my grill" in the same way that Heather is using "holla" and "motherfucker", then yes, she's guilty of the same thing IMO.

 

ETA: My objection to Heather's "holla"-ing is really about the try-hard, fakeness of it. It seems disingenuous .and is silly and a little embarssing

Edited June 10, 2015 by Jel

[motorcitymom65]

Yes and no. In my view, there are two ways to use these expressions: one, in a cultural appropriation way (where one uses words to identify with a particular culture when they aren't part of it and so they haven't really "earned the right" for lack of a better term, to use it) and two in an ironic way, meaning "look at me being a jackass saying something that I know isnt really isn't mine, but doing it in a kind of laughing at myself kind of way".  That's how I have always taken Bethenny's use of expressions like "up in my grill", whereas Heather's use of "holla" and her telling "no one bout nuttin" comes across as more serious, designed to give her some credibility where she doesn't seem to have earned it, the "mean streets" of Diddy's executive board room meetings notwithstanding.  

 

But if Bethenny is using "up in my grill" in the same way that Heather is using "holla" and "motherfucker", then yes, she's guilty of the same thing IMO.

 

ETA: My objection to Heather's "holla"-ing is really about the try-hard, fakeness of it. It seems disingenuous .and is silly and a little embarssing

The funny thing is, back in the day, Beth also received a ton of scrutiny about some of her words. Lots of people didn't like her based on much of the same things that are being said about Heather now. I gave it the side-eye back then with Beth, just like I do now with Heather. 

 

Regarding the whole "holla" deal with Heather, she has said that she has used this for more than a decade I believe.  If it were fake, I would think that since she has received so much criticism for it since her first season, that she would simply get rid of it. I know of no other HW on any franchise who has kept any part of their original intro line, but she has and I would imagine this is because she wants to keep it. I like my ho'wives better when they don't automatically change themselves to make the viewing audience happy. Yes, they have to be up for some self-reflection for sure, but if this is something that is meaningful to her, I would be more than happy to hear her give a huge "fuck you" to those that don't get it. Happier than to see her get rid of it because she might get a few more fans. 

[Mozelle]

Re: Bethenny and "Up in my grill" and "Get off my jock" and "Check yourself before you wreck yourself." I'll go camp out in her thread and await dissertations and thesis defenses. (I'm actually not going to do that. I no longer have any interest in Bethenny's thread.) ;)

 

Anyway, switching gears--I said it in the recent episode thread, but I do adore the friendship between Heather and Carole. It was great seeing Carole mount a (chill, even-toned, Carole-esque) defense of Heather at the dinner table. She didn't back down from Bethenny trying to, essentially, say that Carole is wrong about her friend. I'm going to say that at this point, Carole has a better handle on what type of person Heather is versus what Bethenny thinks she knows.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Mozelle

[motorcitymom65]

 

Anyway, switching gears--I said it in the recent episode thread, but I do adore the friendship between Heather and Carole. It was great seeing Carole mount a (chill, even-toned, Carole-esque) defense of Heather at the dinner table. She didn't back down from Bethenny trying to, essentially, say that Carole is wrong about her friend. I'm going to say that at this point, Carole has a better handle on what type of Heather is versus what Bethenny thinks she knows.

This all day long. Not only Carole, but both Lu and Dorinda also said that Heather was coming from a good, nurturing place. They all know her far better than Beth does. 

[quaintirene]

In Heather's case, it's not so much cultural appropriation that gets on my nerves. It's just general fakery. Her use of Yiddish, for example. I will bet serious money that the Jewish family she married into does not use those terms in everyday speech. Their grandparents might have but not them. I will also bet that the African-Americans she has spent time with don't go in for gangsta language in their everyday dealings with her. I think it's likely she is the kind of woman who uses these terms that originate in other cultures to prove her knowledge and understanding of these cultures. She sets herself up as a kind of tour guide.

By the way, say hi to Rotherham for me, FaithsMom!

Edited June 10, 2015 by quaintirene

[lunastartron]

Going to number my replies to various topics (just noting because I think it could telegraph as condescending but it's a product of not being able to separate post into paragraphs from handheld) 1) Aviva is no longer on the show. So what? Some of behavior during her stint on Bravo provides relevant contrast to and a mirror of the discourse at hand and how it relates to Heather. Plenty of posters other than myself have referenced Aviva here . . . 2) To wit: okay, so let's go with the premise that Heather's conscious verbal transition to dropping 'g's and misusing "nuttin'" actually didn't constitute a clumsy effort at miming urban vernacular or equate urban minorities with intimidation and violence. Then how does one conclude that Aviva's "did you learn that in prison" response is inherently a reference to black people? Maybe she just meant that prison inmates in general don't use proper grammar and have an affinity for profanity. The logic therein is circular, in my personal subjective opinion . . . 3) Posters consistently and regularly satirize Bethenny in a variety of ways for her odd, seemingly attention-grabbing, and out-of-date verbal expressions. Likewise, Aviva was ridiculed at length for deploying "word on the street" by numerous posters last year (as well as by Carole on the show). This is the vein of snark in which most posters in this thread were commenting upon Heather's linguistic tics until the proposition that Dorinda hadn't garnered enough outrage over her structural racism (even though there are like seven or eight pages deconstructing her intent in the thread devoted to that episode) cropped up . . . 4) I can only speak for myself here, but I feel that a number of others have echoed this sentiment: I find Heather's linguistic flourishes more amusing and embarrassingly contrived than offensive (counter to believing they constitute "an atrocity"); I don't find them organic and I think assertions she makes about them being part of her "heritage" are eye-roll-worthy (somehow, I don't think that she's referencing the Old-Middle English/French context of "holla" either). What I *do* find offensive is her invocation of "scully caps" and symbols of black urban culture ("the ghetto") to threaten others and imply violence, rage, and danger . . . 5) Have any posts upthread addressed why Aviva and Ramona's "prison/125th street" remarks are racist (particularly if Heather wasn't trying to invoke urban black culture when speaking to Ramona and Aviva) yet Heather's "scully caps" "cut a bitch" and "ghetto/beat her ass with her leg" intimations are "racially appropriate"? 6) The posts I made about the reclamation of "n***a" and Indians was in response to broader questions that were arising in the discussion (ie how can one group "own" language or culture?). Although Heather is somewhat related to such concerns, she's not the best example - which is why I used others . . . 7) Like the Carole/"Indian" one, which, as I noted in the original post, is not directly analogous to Heather, but does offer a nice example of the importance of power differentials as related to cultural expression and illustrates to a limited extent why the dominant/majority culture's relationship to the minority is not identical to the minority's relationship to the majority.

[FaithsMum]

This all day long. Not only Carole, but both Lu and Dorinda also said that Heather was coming from a good, nurturing place. They all know her far better than Beth does.

Yeah, they do know her better but that doesn't mean she's any less overbearing or controlling, you know? Or rather that Bethenny finds her any less overbearing or controlling which she's entitled to feel.

Disclaimer; I haven't seen the latest episode yet though.

[Rhetorica]

This all day long. Not only Carole, but both Lu and Dorinda also said that Heather was coming from a good, nurturing place. They all know her far better than Beth does.

But what if you don't want nurtured? I'm struggling with post concussion symdrom and had to stop teaching aqua aerobics at the Y. I still go to the classes a few days a week but can only do about a half an hour before becoming dizzy and faint. I sit in the steps awhile and then on the deck until I feel fine to leave. This week, however, I've noticed signals between guards and instructors and miraculously people appear to tend to me. They actually try to walk me to the door and then someone else shows up to walk me to the car! Good intended, but leave me alone, I'm good, don't bring attention to me! Sound familiar?

[jaync]

[lunastartron]

Huh? Carole and Heather's other friends have final authority over interpretation of Heather's conduct and their perspectives delegitimize any views counter to them? Does that apply to Lu's defense of Bethenny as well or is this just a standard for Heather? If Lu - who knows Bethenny more intimately than Heather - attributes Bethenny's behavior to childhood trauma and personal stress, is Heather then to not express any feelings that contradict that expertise? On the whole, that premise is very reminiscent of "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" especially since the Heather-only-means-well point of departure completely ignores the fact that Heather aggressively reengaged Bethenny with her "I'm going to have to separate you two" criticism after the initial FishGate squall had already passed.

[Rhetorica]

Ahh, the phantom hand...

[film noire]

But what if you don't want nurtured? I'm struggling with post concussion symdrom and had to stop teaching aqua aerobics at the Y. I still go to the classes a few days a week but can only do about a half an hour before becoming dizzy and faint. I sit in the steps awhile and then on the deck until I feel fine to leave. This week, however, I've noticed signals between guards and instructors and miraculously people appear to tend to me. They actually try to walk me to the door and then someone else shows up to walk me to the car! Good intended, but leave me alone, I'm good, don't bring attention to me! Sound familiar?

Rhetorica, hope you're feeling  better soon (and have you thought of something other than aqua aerobics? Maybe something with less water involved, until you heal? Because I imagine the ear balance issue involved with you getting a potential case of swimmer's ear might have a negative impact --- nix the water, perhaps yoga? You don't like yoga? Okay, what about low impact stretching?  Don't want to talk about this? Fine -- but what about dancersizing? Or maybe free form dancing, but in one of those zero gravity chambers -- how about that, hunh? --  I AM COMING FROM A PLACE OF GIVING SO LET DOWN THAT WALL AND JUST LET ME HELP YOU!!!!!!

Edited June 11, 2015 by film noire

[Rhetorica]

Rhetorica, hope you're feeling better soon (and have you thought of something other than aqua aerobics? Maybe something with less water involved, until you heal? Because I imagine the ear balance issue involved with you getting a potential case of swimmer's ear might have a negative impact --- nix the water, perhaps yoga? You don't like yoga? Okay, what about low impact stretching? Don't want to talk about this? Fine -- but what about dancersizing? Or maybe free form dancing, but in one of those zero gravity chambers -- how about that, hunh? -- I AM COMING FROM A PLACE OF GIVING SO LET DOWN THAT WALL AND JUST LET ME HELP YOU!!!!!!

I suppose you think YOU CAN FUCKING SAY WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO ME! ;) I am doing land exercises too, anything I can. Actually, the symptoms come from iridescent lighting. They pulse, who knew? I see the Neuro again Friday so well see. ALSO, DON'T MENTION FUCKING DANCING! THAT'S HOW I FUCKING GOT THIS MOTHERFUCKING CONCUSSION! It is odd that we, here in the forum can tell things that we can't to well wishers.

Edited cause fucking verbs just need to get over it and agree...

Edited June 11, 2015 by Rhetorica

[Mozelle]

But what if you don't want nurtured? I'm struggling with post concussion symdrom and had to stop teaching aqua aerobics at the Y. I still go to the classes a few days a week but can only do about a half an hour before becoming dizzy and faint. I sit in the steps awhile and then on the deck until I feel fine to leave. This week, however, I've noticed signals between guards and instructors and miraculously people appear to tend to me. They actually try to walk me to the door and then someone else shows up to walk me to the car! Good intended, but leave me alone, I'm good, don't bring attention to me! Sound familiar?

 

I mean, are you on a reality show at the Y? I feel like that's the major difference in the two situations.

[Rhetorica]

I mean, are you on a reality show at the Y? I feel like that's the major difference in the two situations.

Yeah, see I don't get that. She's a wreck, upset that everyone knows her business but comes back? Is this a comfort zone for her where she thought she would feel safe, cause she's not a sympathetic character.

This is the wrong thread but it would look stupid if I just post to myself on the other thread.

[film noire]

I suppose you think YOU CAN FUCKING SAY WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO ME! ;) I am doing land exercises too, anything I can. Actually, the symptoms come from iridescent lighting. They pulse, who knew? I see the Neuro again Friday so well see. ALSO, DON'T MENTION FUCKING DANCING! THAT'S HOW I FUCKING GOT THIS MOTHERFUCKING CONCUSSION! 

 

 

LOL   (And yeah,  the disclosing-in-a-forum thing is interesting & weirdly wonderful  -- the stories in the Kim Richards thread blew me away -- hope you feel back to usual soon!)

Edited June 11, 2015 by film noire

[Mozelle]

Yeah, see I don't get that. She's a wreck, upset that everyone knows her business but comes back? Is this a comfort zone for her where she thought she would feel safe, cause she's not a sympathetic character.

This is the wrong thread but it would look stupid if I just post to myself on the other thread.

 

Right. I think that's what confounds me the most. If it were non-reality show life, I'd be like, Yeah, stay out my business. (I really dislike people being in my business.) However, if I signed a contract for X dollars, which allowed a camera person, a sound person, and whomever else to follow me for a set number of hours for a set number of days per week, it would be pretty galling of me to be all, "Stay out of my business! I don't want anybody in my business!"

[motorcitymom65]

But what if you don't want nurtured? I'm struggling with post concussion symdrom and had to stop teaching aqua aerobics at the Y. I still go to the classes a few days a week but can only do about a half an hour before becoming dizzy and faint. I sit in the steps awhile and then on the deck until I feel fine to leave. This week, however, I've noticed signals between guards and instructors and miraculously people appear to tend to me. They actually try to walk me to the door and then someone else shows up to walk me to the car! Good intended, but leave me alone, I'm good, don't bring attention to me! Sound familiar?

No, I get that, and I hope you feel better. When judging the character of a person, I look at intent. If they are trying to help and their intent is not evil, that something might be annoying vs, something to be mocked and hated. I don't see any evil intent on Heather's part.

[Rhetorica]

No, I get that, and I hope you feel better. When judging the character of a person, I look at intent. If they are trying to help and their intent is not evil, that something might be annoying vs, something to be mocked and hated. I don't see any evil intent on Heather's part.

Oh I'm sure there's no evil intent on my co-workers or Heather either. But smothering none the less. If I felt out of control of the situation, I may have reacted like Bethenny. Nah, I doubt it. I think I'm much more clever.

[RedheadZombie]

You guys are killing me here.  You know the Heather hate is strong when Aviva is now described in such glowing terms.  She lost her foot!   She lost her foot at the age of six!  Oh the nerve of Heather!!!  She picked on our Aviva - the philanthropist who lost her foot at the age of six!

 

As someone who did not hate Aviva, and who tried to explain away much of Aviva's behavior as a result of that trauma, I must ask - where the hell were you guys then?  Nobody, I mean nobody gave a shit about poor traumatized Aviva last season.  I recall evil Aviva - who should have known better than to play on someone else's farm equipment - sued that poor farm family.  She took all that money away from them.  She re-traumatized that woman by returning to the scene, and trying to exorcise her demons.  Everyone called it fake.  Everyone called it manipulative. Aviva's emotions were made up.   Look at how Aviva pretended to put her foot back in the conveyor belt.  She could not have done that if she was truly traumatized!  Never!!

 

Nope.  It was all making fun of Aviva and - it's about the children who don't have legs!

 

 

 

 

[breezy424]

Oh I'm sure there's no evil intent on my co-workers or Heather either. But smothering none the less. If I felt out of control of the situation, I may have reacted like Bethenny. Nah, I doubt it. I think I'm much more clever.

But you have to look at it from their perspective.  I wouldn't want a world where people just ignore other people who look like they maybe in a possible serious situation.  Be grateful that people care.  Would you rather be ignored if 'you' did have a serious situation?

[Rahul]

I'm waiting for a house to fall on her.

What?

I can say what I want to fucking say.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Rahul

[FaithsMum]

I feel you, Rhetorica . My "illness" is self inflicted and those around me are desperate to "fix" me and can't do enough to help. It's not that I don't appreciate the assistance but when I need it, I'll ask - otherwise I'm good and I'll figure out how to get my starved fucked up body to the toilet myself.

But you have to look at it from their perspective. I wouldn't want a world where people just ignore other people who look like they maybe in a possible serious situation. Be grateful that people care. Would you rather be ignored if 'you' did have a serious situation?

Sure, but there's a fine line between offering help and attempting to force someone to bend to your will. If you're told to back off as Bethenny has told Heather, and you continue to push, then you have crossed that line. It becomes not about helping that person, but about making *yourself* feel better because it's uncomfortable for you to watch someone physically/emotionally struggle.

I used to work with the physically disabled and you allow them to do what they can, no matter how long it takes. I could dress them in two minutes but since a few were able to do it themselves we stepped back and allowed them to - and yes, it pained me, at times, to watch them struggle but to have forced my assistance on them would have been for my benefit, not theirs - because they didn't want it.

Heather has tried to help Bethenny who has told her multiple times to back the fuck off which is absolutely her right, and Heather should respect that.

Edited June 11, 2015 by FaithsMum

[Rhetorica]

But you have to look at it from their perspective. I wouldn't want a world where people just ignore other people who look like they maybe in a possible serious situation. Be grateful that people care. Would you rather be ignored if 'you' did have a serious situation?

Of course I want a world where people help each other and when I become Queen of the World I will make an edict for kindness. Which is sometimes easier to accept from strangers than acquaintances but always easier to accept from true friends.

[Rhetorica]

I feel you, Rhetorica . My "illness" is self inflicted and those around me are desperate to "fix" me and can't do enough to help. It's not that I don't appreciate the assistance but when I need it, I'll ask - otherwise I'm good and I'll figure out how to get my starved fucked up body to the toilet myself.

Sure, but there's a fine line between offering help and attempting to force someone to bend to your will. If you're told to back off as Bethenny has told Heather, and you continue to push, then you have crossed that line. It becomes not about helping that person, but about making *yourself* feel better because it's uncomfortable for you to watch someone physically/emotionally struggle.

I used to work with the physically disabled and you allow them to do what they can, no matter how long it takes. I could dress them in two minutes but since a few were able to do it themselves we stepped back and allowed them to - and yes, it pained me, at times, to watch them struggle but to have forced my assistance on them would have been for my benefit, not theirs - because they didn't want it.

Heather has tried to help Bethenny who has told her multiple times to back the fuck off which is absolutely her right, and Heather should respect that.

And if I was there with you I would probably want to fix it and make it better, too. But seeing you determined and strong in spirit would help me back off. BTW, I've thought of you often and sent white light your way.

[breezy424]

I feel you, Rhetorica . My "illness" is self inflicted and those around me are desperate to "fix" me and can't do enough to help. It's not that I don't appreciate the assistance but when I need it, I'll ask - otherwise I'm good and I'll figure out how to get my starved fucked up body to the toilet myself.

Sure, but there's a fine line between offering help and attempting to force someone to bend to your will. If you're told to back off as Bethenny has told Heather, and you continue to push, then you have crossed that line. It becomes not about helping that person, but about making *yourself* feel better because it's uncomfortable for you to watch someone physically/emotionally struggle.

I used to work with the physically disabled and you allow them to do what they can, no matter how long it takes. I could dress them in two minutes but since a few were able to do it themselves we stepped back and allowed them to - and yes, it pained me, at times, to watch them struggle but to have forced my assistance on them would have been for my benefit, not theirs - because they didn't want it.

Heather has tried to help Bethenny who has told her multiple times to back the fuck off which is absolutely her right, and Heather should respect that.

My post was addressing Rhetorica's situation, not Heather and Bethenny.

[LilaFowler]

Going back to last week's episode, Heather nearly bawling over refused meatballs was just...  Is there something going on in Heather's personal life that is causing her to behave like a lunatic?  Bethenny's allergy and altered meal are really not her business.  They aren't friends, she's not the hostess, it's not her house.  She wasn't even sitting near Bethenny.  She's oversteps a lot and needs to back off.

[Bossa Nova]

Ramona's daughter, Avery, has been featured on this series for its entire run. Since this lovely girl was about 12 to her now 19 years of age.

 

I have never heard anyone address her or refer to her as "Ave" including her own parents.

 

Notice who finally did it.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Bossa Nova

[motorcitymom65]

Ramona's daughter, Avery, has been featured on this series for its entire run. Since this lovely girl was about 12 to her now 19 years of age.

 

I have never heard anyone address her or refer to her as "Ave" including her own parents.

 

Notice who finally did it.

Yes, but I didn't notice that anyone seemed to mind. Did you see the way that Avery embraced Heather? She was clearly very happy to see her, which one doesn't do with a person they don't like.  Since I don't think we have ever seen them together before (could be wrong about that) it would seem that at some point they have gotten to know each other. Here again we have Heather getting to know one of her co-workers and their family.  Remember when Ramona was trash talking Jon last season in Montana? At the reunion Heather said that the reason that was so hurtful was because Ramona didn't know Jon. She said that Ramona had never made any attempt at all in the two years they had worked together to get to know him, and now she is saying terrible things about him. Yet here Heather is with Ramona's daughter and clearly they are happy to see each other. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by motorcitymom65

[Bossa Nova]

 

Strange to me how things like a nickname are so bothersome to some people.

Yeah I noticed how Avery hugged her. I also have a habit of nicknaming dogs I know and am fond of.

 

Good points in your post. No need for final sentence poke back.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Bossa Nova

[ryebread]

LOL   (And yeah,  the disclosing-in-a-forum thing is interesting & weirdly wonderful  -- the stories in the Kim Richards thread blew me away -- hope you feel back to usual soon!)

 

I had to quit Kim's thread but sometimes, when I read references in other threads about personal stories that were shared there, I kind of wish I hadn't. 

 

You guys are killing me here.  You know the Heather hate is strong when Aviva is now described in such glowing terms.  She lost her foot!   She lost her foot at the age of six!  Oh the nerve of Heather!!!  She picked on our Aviva - the philanthropist who lost her foot at the age of six!

 

As someone who did not hate Aviva, and who tried to explain away much of Aviva's behavior as a result of that trauma, I must ask - where the hell were you guys then?  Nobody, I mean nobody gave a shit about poor traumatized Aviva last season. 

 

I was there.  I thought she was nuts but not any moreso than any of the other HWs who sign up for this.  Deplored her dad.  Maybe it's because I'm a former kindergarten teacher and love the littles - especially those with physical or mental impairment - but I had a soft spot for Aviva because of her injury and the age at which it happened.  I had a student with a prosthesis.  I watched that kid get tormented from kindergarten to sixth grade.  I followed him, via other teachers in the district until he graduated. It ended well for him but kids made him suffer far worse than the pain he suffered from the initial injury.  Which was pretty horrifying.

 

And that's why I can not stand Heather and Carole and Kristen to a lesser degree.  They give me many more reasons to dislike them other than what cold blooded bitches they were to Aviva, but that was the final straw.  I think they manufactured a lot of that drama.  And over what.  Because Aviva said Carole used a ghostwriter.  So what.  I think she did, too. I wasn't sure then but now I think she's a hack.  But to make fun of her, as adult women, two of which had special needs kids, made me sick.

 

When Heather said, "Nobody likes you. Nobody wants you here."  My heart broke a little.  Because mark my words, as a little girl I'll bet you dollars to donuts, she heard that a few times.  And even after the little kids stopped saying it, she still felt it.  And then for Heather to stick her big, ugly nose into Aviva's face - ANYONE'S face and say that, told me all I needed to know about that asswipe.

[jaync]

Not only Carole, but both Lu and Dorinda also said that Heather was coming from a good, nurturing place.

It looked like Dorinda was trying to bite her tongue when Beth was bitching about Heather.

 

Yeah, if that sweet soul Aviva had only had two legs, then surely everybody would've liked her. *drops tear*

 

[motorcitymom65]

Yeah I noticed how Avery hugged her. I also have a habit of nicknaming dogs I know and am fond of.

 

Good points in your post. No need for final sentence poke back.

Fair enough and good call out. I did an edit. But in all honestly, it is very interesting to me that this does bug. Mainly because I have always used nicknames, and most people have one for me (i have a name that begs for people to do interesting things with it). Except when I was in the 3rd grade and people would give me mean nicknames, it has always seemed like a term of endearment to me, and certainly that is the way I mean it when I give someone a nickname. Might be strange, but until I read some of the comments on this forum, it had never once entered my head that some people might not like this kind of thing. But then I love this place because often I learn something. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by motorcitymom65

[FaithsMum]

Fair enough and good call out. I did an edit. But in all honestly, it is very interesting to me that this does bug. Mainly because I have always used nicknames, and most people have one for me (i have a name that begs for people to do interesting things with it). Except when I was in the 3rd grade and people would give me mean nicknames, it has always seemed like a term of endearment to me, and certainly that is the way I mean it when I give someone a nickname. Might be strange, but until I read some of the comments on this forum, it had never once entered my head that some people might not like this kind of thing. But then I love this place because often I learn something.

I'm with you on the nicknames thing; I use a shortened version of my own name and so I have a habit of doing the same to others, without thinking or realising I have. In fact, everyone I know does it. And if we can't shorten it, like with my youngest daughters name, we lengthen it usually by adding a "y" on the end! So, like you, until I read it on here, it never entered my head either that people would find it offensive.

Heather shortening names doesn't bother me *unless* she continues to do so after she's been asked not to.

[lunastartron]

Umm, when did anyone contend that Aviva was a "sweet soul"? I believe the posts about her are usually (and on this page are definitely) qualified, the general point being that, although she certainly had her share of personality flaws, there seems to be a stark contrast in which transgressions Aviva never committed are ascribed to her (that nefarious six-year-old, preying on that poor, victimized farm family; that evil homophobe who hates gay people) and yet behavior in which Heather objectively indulged is either retconned or whitewashed. Ryebread, was it you who posted several pages back about the level of devotion among Heather's fans? Although I agreed with you then, I thought that certain posts regarding Heather laughing with Kristen about Aviva's loss of limb exemplified your point ("if she did, I don't have a problem with it."), especially since Aviva *never did anything to Heather*. Despite that big heart and those good intentions I read so much about, that's now at least two occasions on which Heather has displayed some pretty substantive callousness toward the tragedies of others (the other being the eye-rolling at Bethenny). So does Bethenny now have carte blanche to sneer and/or giggle at Heather's struggles since Heather dismissed her own personal difficulties and is also in a fight with Bethenny's friennd LuAnn?

[ryebread]

Yeah, if that sweet soul Aviva had only had two legs, then surely everybody would've liked her. *drops tear*

 

I certainly wouldn't put 'sweet' and 'Aviva' in the same sentence, LOL, but before Carole needed a storyline, they all got along just fine.  Onscreen and off.  Once Carole doth protested too much, her bulldog...scratch that...her mother, Heather, started to fight her little princess' battle and off to the races we went.  All damn season.

Edited June 11, 2015 by ryebread

[ryebread]

Ryebread, was it you who posted several pages back about the level of devotion among Heather's fans? Although I agreed with you then, I thought that certain posts regarding Heather laughing with Kristen about Aviva's loss of limb exemplified your point ("if she did, I don't have a problem with it."), especially since Aviva *never did anything to Heather*. Despite that big heart and those good intentions I read so much about, that's now at least two occasions on which Heather has displayed some pretty substantive callousness toward the tragedies of others (the other being the eye-rolling at Bethenny).

 

I participated in the thread. But I didn't see that/those response(s), for which I'm grateful.

Edited June 11, 2015 by ryebread

[jaync]

(that nefarious six-year-old, preying on that poor, victimized farm family; that evil homophobe who hates gay people)

When did anyone contend any of that?

[Mozelle]

I certainly wouldn't put 'sweet' and 'Aviva' in the same sentence, LOL, but before Carole needed a storyline, they all got along just fine.  Onscreen and off.  Once Carole doth protested too much, her bulldog...scratch that...her mother, Heather, started to fight her little princess' battle and off to the races we went.  All damn season.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought that Carole and Aviva left their first season (or sometime during the interim between their first and second seasons) not being close. That was my understanding for why Aviva came into last season kind of trying to make amends with everyone. Ramona and Sonja were over Aviva. Heather and Carole weren't friendly with Aviva either. 

 

All four of the women commented how Aviva basically didn't make any attempts to keep in touch during that year and a half and only started trying to reach out a few weeks before they got back into filming last season. 

[motorcitymom65]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought that Carole and Aviva left their first season (or sometime during the interim between their first and second seasons) not being close. That was my understanding for why Aviva came into last season kind of trying to make amends with everyone. Ramona and Sonja were over Aviva. Heather and Carole weren't friendly with Aviva either.

All four of the women commented how Aviva basically didn't make any attempts to keep in touch during that year and a half and only started trying to reach out a few weeks before they got back into filming last season.

You remember correctly. All of the ladies mentioned they had heard nothing from Aviva. The rest of them (well, I don't know about Sonja) had gotten tighter during the long hiatus. Carole said she didn't hear from Aviva until she wanted something from her - advice on finding a good Ghostwriter.

This is just gossip, but I had read somewhere before that season started filming that the other girls had issues with Aviva in particular during their epic contract negotiations. They were supposedly standing firm as a group on salary increases and the decision was to maintain a united front to get what they wanted. Apparently Aviva wasn't communicating with the rest of them and was kind of doing her own thing. They all reached agreement, except for Lu and Aviva. Lu held out the longest, 3 or so days after Aviva signed. Lu was of course knocked back to "friend of" status and Aviva was not. This might have nothing to do with anything, but I always felt that in particular Carole and Heather saw something in Aviva during that whole thing that they didn't like. They left their first season thinking they were friends and largely defending some of her behavior but then she wasn't communicating with them until the cameras started to roll. That would piss most people off.

ETA: to bring it back around to Heather, maybe Dorinda has been spending too much time with her in the Berkshire's. Girl called Ramona "Mona" in her blog.

Edited June 11, 2015 by motorcitymom65

[film noire]

I had to quit Kim's thread but sometimes, when I read references in other threads about personal stories that were shared there, I kind of wish I hadn't. 

 

I was there.  I thought she was nuts but not any moreso than any of the other HWs who sign up for this.  Deplored her dad.  Maybe it's because I'm a former kindergarten teacher and love the littles - especially those with physical or mental impairment - but I had a soft spot for Aviva because of her injury and the age at which it happened.I had a student with a prosthesis.  I watched that kid get tormented from kindergarten to sixth grade.  I followed him, via other teachers in the district until he graduated. It ended well for him but kids made him suffer far worse than the pain he suffered from the initial injury.  Which was pretty horrifying.

 

(snipped only for space)

 

Beautiful post, ryebread -- and about a woman I don't much like (quite vocally so). Between you and Lura (in the Kim Richards thread) my tart lemon drop heart has been getting a workout this week. 

Edited June 12, 2015 by film noire

[lunastartron]

That Carole and Heather, veritable Norma Raes heroically making a stand for the collective bargaining rights of wealthy white women against exploitationist big reality and the sellout (funny, if she hadn't spoken with any of the other ladies at all in months, then she couldn't have made any agreement to betray) Aviva (who does she think she is, negotiating her own salary? The sheer cheek!). I also recall reading at the time that Bravo specifically did not offer Aviva any salary or return spot at all until the very last minute - ie after all the other women resolved their disputes - in order to limit her asking power since she and Ramona were the central figures on the previous season . . . As RedheadedZombie noted, Aviva was demonized at length on these boards for returning to the site of her accident, filming her emotional reckoning there, having a father who sued the farm, etc. I remember very specifically that there was a thread of discourse contending that it was irresponsible to undertake legal proceedings. And there were definitely a not insignificant number of posts that twisted "what are you, her lover?" at the tete-a-tete with Heather into "what are you, gay or something?"/"what are you, a lesbian?" and excoriated her for the anti-gay animus this revealed . . . One element that I always found odd in Heather and Kristen's fetish for hating Aviva was that Sonja, despite noting that Carole "always talked about being on the phone with her co-writer," escaped without a huge pile-on.

[breezy424]

I would say that many thought that Aviva's return to the farm where she was injured was for 'show'.  I did not, nor did many others, demonize her.  I don't remember the segment in its entirety but that's how I felt at the time.  That doesn't mean that I or others don't have empathy or compassion for what happened to her as a child.  I do.  It was horrible.

 

I also don't think that Heather and Kristin had a fetish for hating Aviva.  IIRC, Heather was nice to Aviva the first season especially in St.  Barth's when Ro and So were pretty obnoxious.  And Aviva was just as obnoxious. 

 

As the viewers, and housewives, got to know Aviva better, IMO, Aviva was extremely obnoxious.  Yeah, we can still have compassion for the trauma she endured but I don't think that's an excuse for her behavior.  Especially, when she made the planned throwing of her prosthetic leg.  That was ... I don't have a word...maybe sad. 

[jaync]

As RedheadedZombie noted, Aviva was demonized at length on these boards for...

Oh, I thought you were talking about the HWs. Anyway, why is that an issue? 

[HumblePi]

I don't like Heather, she's beginning to wear on my nerves with the 'mama' and 'halla' stuff. It's overdone already dear so drop it. I don't like Luann this season, she seems too desperate to keep her nose poking into things that don't concern her and her 40's 'glam' look at Dorinda's birthday party looked absolutely laughable and sad. I don't like Ramona because she has a few screws loose for real. I don't like Sonja either because she tries to be cute by acting all sexy and she only looks like an over-the-hill rich woman trying to regain her lost youth. I 'kind of' like Bethenny and the way she shoots from the hip, never mincing words. I do like Dorinda and so far she shows that she has some class. Now I'm wondering why I watch this show at all since it doesn't seem like I like any of them. I was annoyed at the current episode because it seems like there's too much noise and everyone is talking at the same time. It's hard to distinguish who is saying what because they're all talking over each other and talking rapid-fire.

 

*how could I overlook Carole?  I don't like her this season at all either.

Edited June 12, 2015 by HumblePi

[motorcitymom65]

I would say that many thought that Aviva's return to the farm where she was injured was for 'show'.  I did not, nor did many others, demonize her.  I don't remember the segment in its entirety but that's how I felt at the time.  That doesn't mean that I or others don't have empathy or compassion for what happened to her as a child.  I do.  It was horrible.

 

I also don't think that Heather and Kristin had a fetish for hating Aviva.  IIRC, Heather was nice to Aviva the first season especially in St.  Barth's when Ro and So were pretty obnoxious.  And Aviva was just as obnoxious. 

 

As the viewers, and housewives, got to know Aviva better, IMO, Aviva was extremely obnoxious.  Yeah, we can still have compassion for the trauma she endured but I don't think that's an excuse for her behavior.  Especially, when she made the planned throwing of her prosthetic leg.  That was ... I don't have a word...maybe sad.

Viewers overwhelmingly disliked Aviva and that train was not being driven by either Heather or Kristen. Heck, They weren't even with her very much at all. If you look back at last year's episodes you will see how rarely they were even in the same room or really discussed her except in passing after the 6th or so episode. Heather tried to get Carole to make peace with Aviva on the beach, but quickly remembered that she was nuts when she whipped out that copy of Carole's book. She pretty much washed her hands of her after that and they didn't engage that much. She missed so much of the stuff they all did (The Berkshire's, Saratoga, Montana). The audience reached their own conclusions which were in line with what most of the girls felt. It might not have been a very nice thing to say, but Heather was right when she said no one liked her. The fact that she had basically zero support at the end from anyone except loony Sonja with her connection to creepy Harry, told the story. Even Ramona, who Aviva thought supported her, called her vile at the reunion.

[breezy424]

Viewers overwhelmingly disliked Aviva and that train was not being driven by either Heather or Kristen. Heck, They weren't even with her very much at all. If you look back at last year's episodes you will see how rarely they were even in the same room or really discussed her except in passing after the 6th or so episode. Heather tried to get Carole to make peace with Aviva on the beach, but quickly remembered that she was nuts when she whipped out that copy of Carole's book. She pretty much washed her hands of her after that and they didn't engage that much. She missed so much of the stuff they all did (The Berkshire's, Saratoga, Montana). The audience reached their own conclusions which were in line with what most of the girls felt. It might not have been a very nice thing to say, but Heather was right when she said no one liked her. The fact that she had basically zero support at the end from anyone except loony Sonja with her connection to creepy Harry, told the story. Even Ramona, who Aviva thought supported her, called her vile at the reunion.

Love this - especially: That train was not being driven by either Heather or Kristen.

[lunastartron]

And viewers are increasingly disliking Heather this season, but I often see that attributed to editing - which does indeed apply to certain aspects of the presentation of Heather that production appears to be advancing - and not to Heather's own agency. There are many instances upthread of the double standard for Heather, imo (Carole's sympathetic perspective trumps and/or delegitimizes any less flattering interpretations of Heather's conduct; helpfulness vs. "I'm going to have to separate you two"/"i can tell you what I want to fucking tell you!"; that big heart vs. laughing over and/or dismissing other's turmoil; Aviva and Ramona being racist for "did you learn that in prison"/"125th street" vs. Heather's unoffensive "scully caps"/rip her leg off "and beat her ass"; Aviva's promotion of philanthropy being only for show vs. Heather's pure-hearted shutouts to charities on social media; the idea that Heather lovingly asked Jonathon not to take up her fight vs "get out of this right now") but I actually think that the finale party for whatever project Sonja was undertaking at the time was pretty emblematic of the dynamic between the women at the time and neatly reflective of all their foibles. Sure, Aviva participated in the debacle by but throwing her prosthesis in a grab for attention. . . but that was certainly far from the only (and, for me, far from the weirdest) instance of Kafkaesque nonsense. Kristen, of all people, actually was the motor for much of the confrontation and exhibited some of the most peculiar behavior. She was the first to significantly engage Aviva, dramatically and grandiosely booming, "there is something MUCH DEEPER going on with you, and you need to be honest about what it is!" I still have no clue what she was referring to, why she cared so much since she was on the hater train by then, and how that language (which seems more appropriate for a substance abuse intervention or exhorting someone to relive past trauma) was consistent with their ire about Aviva's refusal to participate in Montana (they sure talked about Aviva even if they didn't film with her). Then LuAnn and Kristen *literally proceed to grasp their chests and mimic hyperventilating* all because Aviva brought X-rays to back up her story (documentation to support a claim is not unprecedented on this franchise). And Heather (who, it should be noted again, Aviva never committed any offense against but who could not stop attacking when Carole was already disengaging from Aviva) managed to scream and posture about "not having time for this!" (it sure looked like she had time when she was directing ire at her husband for having the temerity to try to stop her from chasing Amanda, or when she was screaming at Aviva, playing victim to Reid, and contending that Aviva had "sicced" Amanda on her, and so on and so forth) . . . which, when you're screaming and yelling in front of a reality tv camera kind of undermines your thesis. So all fully participated in a very bizarre pileup of neuroses and misconduct, Heather very robustly.

[lunastartron]

*Eta: Heather and Kristen were definitely (and illogically) more vocal than Carole about their animosity toward Aviva even though - again - Aviva never did anything to Heather and didn't do anything significant to Kristen (I think they had a disagreement about Aviva bailing on Montana? Though I'm willing to concede that I could be wrong on this point since I had to check out for a couple of episodes that year once Aviva's dad appeared). After her face-grab/run-to-harry-and-reid outburst, Carole seemed to relocate her essential dignity and actually want to let the blowups drop, but that didn't stop Heather from her Hamptons campaign.

[ryebread]

Beautiful post, ryebread -- and about a woman I don't much like (quite vocally so). Between you and Lura (in the Kim Richards thread) my tart lemon drop heart has been getting a workout this week. 

 

Here's where you might change your mind because I'm about to call a bunch of 5 - 8 year olds, little fuckers. LOL During a recess, a few of my kindergartners and some 2nd graders took one arm out of their sleeves, tucking their arm down into their shirts, letting the other sleeve dangle armless.  And then ran around the playground taunting this child.  One little fucker hung from the monkey bars with one hand while the empty sleeve was a-blowin' in the wind.  The boy was timid by nature and clung close to me during recess but if you could feel what I felt that day - how rigid his little body was.  He didn't cry.  He whimpered.  Oh my god, I just called 5 year olds little fuckers but damn if my heart didn't break and isn't breaking right now recalling what they did.  If I have flashbacks and nightmares from recalling that, imagine the kid.  And then 11 more years of it. 

 

Hopefully by college, kids were more mature than that but I dunno, because the coven of HW witches were in their 40s and still making fun of an amputee. 

 

I'm not saying Aviva didn't deserve getting called out by them and us but what these 'nurturing', 'good mothers' did was beyond the pale.  You can bet Heather and Kristen would be the first ones in the principal's office (Heather in her skully) if their children were picked on like that for their disabilities. As they should be.