Bethenny & Jason: The Divorce Showdown

[Jel]

I didn't know they were Hello Kitty!

That changes everything.

[Martinigirl]

Just now, Jel said:

I didn't know they were Hello Kitty!

That changes everything.

LOL!!!

[film noire]

eta: edited to not add!

Quote

For the record, you will literally never find me supporting or condoning or excusing abusers. 

Okay! I figured you felt that way ; )

Edited June 24, 2017 by film noire

[zoeysmom]

19 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

You are describing the classical scenario of an abused wife.  It's tragic and happens all too often.  But one must admit that it is possible that this was not the case with Tinsley.

Without delving too far into rumor (rumors I am guessing that Bethenny as a person who frequents south Florida, knows all about), suffice it to say that many people viewed Tinsley's attempts to try and win back this abusive guy to have zero to do with the kind of thing you are talking about - being paralyzed, thinking love means being hit, etc. - and that her choice to be with him was more a function of her wanting to be with an incredibly wealthy, younger, socially well-connected man no matter how he treated her so that she could regain her former status as a social "it" girl.  When he wanted to end things with her, she wouldn't let go. It is no secret that some say she was the instigator to many of their drunken physical fights.  Of course that doesn't excuse a man putting his hands on her, in no way shape or form.  No one should have the injuries Tinsley sustained inflicted on them.  But as far as Tinsley being the kind of powerless victim lost in an emotional storm unable to figure out she needs to escape or how to do it should she want to, a lot of people weren't buyin' it.

I suspect Bethenny might be among their numbers.

 

I thought suggesting there are abused women and then there are "abused women," was wrong.  

At any rate, I am just glad Bethenny put a stop to what was going on in her situation before she ended up with staples in her head.  Stalking may not be under the statutory heading of domestic abuse, but it is definitely abusive behavior.  The sooner the nipped in the bud, the better! 

 

AMEN! 

Instead of listening to and reading gossip-maybe it is time for Bethenny to STFU and have a face to face with Tinsley instead of dispensing Disney cartoon character advice as to what she would do with her life.  It really doesn't matter what is being said in south Florida, what matters is the person in front of you.  It would be like Tinsley or Luann saying, oh we need to check out Jason's side or read the tabloids about what people are saying about Bethenny and her treatment of Jason.  Bethenny doesn't want to feel uncomfortable.  Too bad then shut up.  Since Tinsley moved from Florida, (as far as we are on the show) she landed a job is reconnecting with the network that helped make her brand and looking for place to live.  She has also had to return to Palm Beach and finish up her legal matters.  Every time she films she is working.  Bethenny by virtue of being on the show is in the unique position to get an up close and personal account of what is going on.  The idea that "a lot of people" weren't buying it-how many people were truly involved?  That is precisely what his family was trying to sell.   

It was the "abusive" that put Bethenny's comments out of line and now she has a following defending her indefensible actions.  It is not always important why someone says something incredibly inappropriate it is more e important their erroneous message not be spread.

[BBHN]

Quote

Instead of listening to and reading gossip-maybe it is time for Bethenny to STFU and have a face to face with Tinsley

Maybe we should all have a face to face with Bethenny about what she has endured via Jason...but we'll all probably keep commenting anyway.

Quote

I mean we know he doesn't have a pot to pee in so it's not like he wants to hire a lawyer.  Oh wait he ended up having to do just that.

Ha!

[lunastartron]

32 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

C'mon ... that's ridiculous and no one has said anything of the sort.

My synopsis: "it's the victim's responsibility to fix the situation." 

 

An example of what was said upthread: 

53 minutes ago, Jel said:

At some point you do become responsible for your choices -- abused women know that and that's why they seek out shelters.  I see that acknowledgment of responsibility as an empowering and positive event in a DV survivor's life.  

 

This literally situates a solution or fix to the violence - in this case, pursuing the services of a shelter - as an onus of responsibility upon the victim IMO.

Edited June 24, 2017 by lunastartron

[Happy Camper]

8 minutes ago, film noire said:

These sound like assessments -- from that post -- making Tinsley complicit,  imo:

“I suspect her discomfort might be because by the issue of Tinsley's own role in the situation with her boyfriend.”

“Tinsley refused to leave him alone (to the point that she was arrested for trespassing).”

“she didn't prosecute this guy because it would alienate him even further, not because she was powerless or in some kind of fear of him.”

“Or not acknowledge their own unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation.”

" One could describe Tinsley as having fought tooth and nail to save a mutually abusive relationship in order to maintain a certain financial and social lifestyle the man could provide her despite him cracking her head open.”

Okay,

Thank you, Film Noire. These quotes make me feel so sad and upset as it really illustrates the ignorance around spousal (men and woman) abuse.  

Especially this: “Or not acknowledge their own unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation.”

This is such a sickening statement. Makes me feel so sad that a woman could have this opinion. 

5 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

My synopsis: "it's the victim's responsibility to fix the situation." 

An example of what was said upthread: 

 

This literally situates a solution or fix to the violence - in this case, pursuing the services of a shelter - as an onus of responsibility upon the victim IMO.

OMG.  You are so right about this. Take the responsibility off the abuser.

[BBHN]

Quote

My synopsis: "it's the victim's responsibility to fix the situation." 

Good thing we all see things differently.

Quote

This literally situates a solution or fix to the violence - in this case, pursuing the services of a shelter - as an onus of responsibility upon the victim IMO.

I didn't get that from Jel's statement, actually. IMO, of course.

[Happy Camper]

13 minutes ago, BBHN said:

Maybe Bethanny should  have a face to face with Tinsley about what she has endured. Then shut her mouth.

[BBHN]

13 minutes ago, Happy Camper said:

29 minutes ago, BBHN said:

Maybe Bethanny should  have a face to face with Tinsley about what she has endured. Then shut her mouth.

And maybe we should all do the same with Bethenny regarding what she endured with Jason lol

Also, why quote me and then edit what I said? Especially since that isn't what I said. At all lol

Edited June 24, 2017 by BBHN

[Celia Rubenstein]

2 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

 It was the "abusive" that put Bethenny's comments out of line and now she has a following defending her indefensible actions.  It is not always important why someone says something incredibly inappropriate it is more e important their erroneous message not be spread.

I don't think Bethenny has a following defending her.  I just think some of us have a different opinion than you do about the matter and are interested in discussing why she may have said what she did. 

Whether her message was erroneous is really in the eye of the beholder and everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it. 

 

2 hours ago, lunastartron said:

Quote

At some point you do become responsible for your choices -- abused women know that and that's why they seek out shelters.  I see that acknowledgment of responsibility as an empowering and positive event in a DV survivor's life.  

This literally situates a solution or fix to the violence - in this case, pursuing the services of a shelter - as an onus of responsibility upon the victim. 

I think it is an acknowledgment of a way a victim can protect herself by taking responsibility for her own safety. What is wrong with that? 

 

2 hours ago, Happy Camper said:

Thank you, Film Noire. These quotes make me feel so sad and upset as it really illustrates the ignorance around spousal (men and woman) abuse.  

Especially this: “Or not acknowledge their own unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation.”

This is such a sickening statement. Makes me feel so sad that a woman could have this opinion. 

I have to point out that you are taking my quote completely out of context.  But just for the sake of argument, I ask the following:

Does anyone really believe it is totally impossible that a woman could have an unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation?  

That each and every single domestic violence victim is an completely innocent noble soul who plays absolutely no part in the ongoing cycle of violence?

There are some really sweeping generalizations about women and domestic violence being made here that are indicative of ignorance, I agree. Just not the ones you suggest. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[Jel]

9 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

My synopsis: "it's the victim's responsibility to fix the situation." 

 

An example of what was said upthread: 

 

This literally situates a solution or fix to the violence - in this case, pursuing the services of a shelter - as an onus of responsibility upon the victim IMO.

That is the only solution currently available that I am aware of. I wish it weren't that way, but it is. In the face of a violent home situation, a woman must choose to leave.  Once the world changes and there is a way to prevent it or a way to really make it stop, let's have this conversation again. 

I think you're drawing a conclusion that doesn't follow. These are the current practical realities.  If a woman stays in an abusive home, things will likely get worse for her. I encourage her to leave, but I am not her boss and she gets to decide what to do. You can call that blaming the victim, but if you do, you'll have to call every woman's shelter out there as victim blamers as well because that's pretty much exactly what they tell abused women to do. In my experience anyway. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

This literally situates a solution or fix to the violence - in this case, pursuing the services of a shelter - as an onus of responsibility upon the victim IMO.

In fairness, how else does an abuse victim get help?  I've dealt with these situations in my own family. I offered help and shelter but I couldn't drag the person I was offering help to out of their abusive home by force (because that would be me assaulting that person, and trespassing and the prick involved would have pressed charges) so yes, the victim in question had to take the responsibility of getting out.

To use a different example, you can clean a hoarder's house but until they realize they have a problem, they will just remake the hoard.

[motorcitymom65]

32 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

My synopsis: "it's the victim's responsibility to fix the situation." 

 

An example of what was said upthread: 

 

This literally situates a solution or fix to the violence - in this case, pursuing the services of a shelter - as an onus of responsibility upon the victim IMO.

I am not sure what you are advocating here.  For a women to stay in a violent situation and try to change the abuser? Isn't it usually the victim who has to eventually fix the situation, hopefully with the support of a network of professionals and a legal system willing to help? Of course it is ultimately the fault of the abuser for the abuse. He/she is the one responsible for the abuse, but it is usually the victim that has to somehow find a way to to put a stop to it. It is all kinds of sucky and unfair, but isn't that the way it works? In a perfect world we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the world is not perfect. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by motorcitymom65

[Celia Rubenstein]

9 minutes ago, Jel said:

That is the only solution currently available that I am aware of. I wish it weren't that way, but it is. In the face of a violent home situation, a woman must choose to leave.  Once the world changes and there is a way to prevent it or a way to really make it stop, let's have this conversation again. 

I think you're drawing a conclusion that doesn't follow. These are the current practical realities.  If a woman stays in an abusive home, things will likely get worse for her. I encourage her to leave, but I am not her boss and she gets to decide what to do. You can call that blaming the victim, but if you do, you'll have to call every woman's shelter out there as victim blamers as well because that's pretty much exactly what they tell abused women to do. In my experience anyway. 

I don't understand how anyone can argue with you about this, Jel.  

The suggestion that it is wrong to encourage a woman to leave the home and seek shelter because it is really her abuser who is at fault and needs to change could lead to a lot of women dying while waiting for their partner to magically change.  

It sounds like the kind of hyper radical feminist intellectual viewpoint that sounds great in a college classroom but in real life, not so much.

[film noire]

7 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

C'mon ... that's ridiculous and no one has said anything of the sort.

I think  saying things like “she didn't prosecute this guy because it would alienate him even further, not because she was powerless or in some kind of fear of him”, and "not acknowledge their own unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation" or " One could describe Tinsley as having fought tooth and nail to save a mutually abusive relationship in order to maintain a certain financial and social lifestyle the man could provide her despite him cracking her head open.” are all ways to make her the problem, not his violence, the abuse,  and what abuse does to the victim.

Quote

That each and every single domestic violence victim is an completely innocent noble soul who plays absolutely no part in the ongoing cycle of violence?

A victim of abuse is never complicit in their abuse. (It's like saying there are degrees of abuse-- there's real abuse, there's semi abuse, there's "you caused it" abuse -- the way we used to think about rape).  Tinsley is not responsible for him hitting her, and her returning to the abusive situation is part of the cycle of abuse.

Edited June 25, 2017 by film noire

[motorcitymom65]

12 minutes ago, Jel said:

That is the only solution currently available that I am aware of. I wish it weren't that way, but it is. In the face of a violent home situation, a woman must choose to leave.  Once the world changes and there is a way to prevent it or a way to really make it stop, let's have this conversation again. 

I think you're drawing a conclusion that doesn't follow. These are the current practical realities.  If a woman stays in an abusive home, things will likely get worse for her. I encourage her to leave, but I am not her boss and she gets to decide what to do. You can call that blaming the victim, but if you do, you'll have to call every woman's shelter out there as victim blamers as well because that's pretty much exactly what they tell abused women to do. In my experience anyway. 

Amen sister. 

[KungFuBunny]

58 minutes ago, BBHN said:

No, they haven't.

He could launch a whole StalkerGuy empire just to spite Bethenny lol

I think instead of SKG he should brand SDG - Stalker Douche Guy

He could start with a clothing line. Outfits that can be dressed up or down...ie suited up for criminal court and for the evening out with your Bumble date take off the blazer for a more casual look.

Maybe he can make a deal with a razor company - teach his fellow stalkers how to maintain their Douchetache

[BBHN]

Quote

are all ways to make her the problem, not hi violence, the abuse,  and what abuse does to the victim.

I didn't arrive at the conclusion at all, based on what was said.

Quote

I think instead of SKG he should brand SDG - Stalker Douche Guy

He could start with a clothing line. Outfits that can be dressed up or down...ie suited up for criminal court and for the evening out with your Bumble date take off the blazer for a more casual look.

Maybe he can make a deal with a razor company - teach his fellow stalkers how to maintain their Douchetache

He can appear on Shark Tank to try and sell it there ;-)

[film noire]

13 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

The suggestion that it is wrong to encourage a woman to leave the home and seek shelter because it is really her abuser who is at fault and needs to change could lead to a lot of women dying while waiting for their partner to magically change.  

That's not what has been said, imo; it hasn't been about encouraging a woman (Tinsley in this case) to leave an abusive situation, it's been about judging Tinsley for not leaving sooner, better, more perfectly.

Edited June 24, 2017 by film noire

[Celia Rubenstein]

1 hour ago, film noire said:

That's not what has been said, imo; it hasn't been about encouraging a woman (Tinsley in this case) to leave an abusive situation, it's been about judging Tinsley for not leaving sooner, better or more perfectly.

I feel like a point of speculation about what Bethenny may have thought is being conflated with the opinion of posters.  Namely, me! 

 

1 hour ago, film noire said:

I think  saying things like “she didn't prosecute this guy because it would alienate him even further, not because she was powerless or in some kind of fear of him”, and "not acknowledge their own unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation" or " One could describe Tinsley as having fought tooth and nail to save a mutually abusive relationship in order to maintain a certain financial and social lifestyle the man could provide her despite him cracking her head open.” are all ways to make her the problem, not hi violence, the abuse,  and what abuse does to the victim.

Please see my response above.

This repeated quoting of my posts has really reached beating a dead horse territory, don't you think?  

Edited June 24, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[KungFuBunny]

Jason is such a Douche

[BBHN]

Quote

This repeated quoting of my posts has really reached beating a dead horse territory, don't you think?  

I don't know about you, but I will be praying for that dead horse. Bless it's heart.

Just now, KungFuBunny said:

Jason is such a Douche

Bwahahahaha!

[lunastartron]

19 minutes ago, Jel said:

That is the only solution currently available that I am aware of. I wish it weren't that way, but it is. In the face of a violent home situation, a woman must choose to leave.  Once the world changes and there is a way to prevent it or a way to really make it stop, let's have this conversation again. 

I think you're drawing a conclusion that doesn't follow. These are the current practical realities.  If a woman stays in an abusive home, things will likely get worse for her. I encourage her to leave, but I am not her boss and she gets to decide what to do. You can call that blaming the victim, but if you do, you'll have to call every woman's shelter out there as victim blamers as well because that's pretty much exactly what they tell abused women to do. In my experience anyway. 

"Practical reality" vs. "responsibility" is a distinction with a significant difference IMO vis a vis what it suggests/implies about the victim's role in the abuse. 

 

1 minute ago, film noire said:

That's not what has been said, imo; it hasn't been about encouraging a woman (Tinsley in this case) to leave an abusive situation, it's been about judging Tinsley for not leaving sooner, better or more perfectly.

Thank your articulating this so clearly. Your point is emphasized from my perspective by the following.

 

"Tinsley certainly had it within her means to leave and be completely free of the situation- she was in no way financially dependent upon him, had no children with the guy - she repeatedly chose to try and force the relationship"

 

16 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I don't understand how anyone can argue with you about this, Jel.  

The suggestion that it is wrong to encourage a woman to leave the home and seek shelter because it is really her abuser who is at fault and needs to change could lead to a lot of women dying while waiting for their partner to magically change.  

It sounds like the kind of hyper radical feminist intellectual viewpoint that sounds great in a college classroom but in real life, not so much.

Yeah, I never said it was wrong to encourage a woman to leave the home. I DO however think it is wrong to suggest that a victim didn't leave an abusive situation quickly enough (since Tinsley, you know, did leave Palm Beach and the relationship) because she has money and no children. 

34 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I don't think Bethenny has a following defending her.  I just think some of us have a different opinion than you do about the matter and are interested in discussing why she may have said what she did. 

Whether her message was erroneous is really in the eye of the beholder and everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it. 

 

I think it is an acknowledgment of a way a victim can protect herself by taking responsibility for her own safety. What is wrong with that? 

 

Does anyone really believe it is totally impossible that a woman could have an unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation?  

That each and every single domestic violence victim is an completely innocent noble soul who plays absolutely no part in the ongoing cycle of violence?

There are some really sweeping generalizations about women and domestic violence being made here that are indicative of ignorance, I agree. Just not the ones you suggest. 

I'm sure Tinsley does like the stature conferred by wealth and pedigree. Maybe she even feels dependent upon it in some respects. 

Which means ... what exactly, speaking practically, vis a vis her boyfriend tackling her, holding her face down into the sidewalk, and ensuring she needs staples in her head?

[film noire]

45 minutes ago, Happy Camper said:

These quotes make me feel so sad and upset as it really illustrates the ignorance around spousal (men and woman) abuse.  

 I read recently that (CDC figures for 2010)  forty percent of domestic violence victims are now men; as hard as it for people to understand why women stay/return, it's probably even harder to understand why men do the same thing. 

[KungFuBunny]

Super Douche Jason just pops up all over the place.

Thank goodness he was arrested, that is the only thing that has made him finally stop - Bethenny has has a more peaceful existence since January 27th

[film noire]

6 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

This repeated quoting of my posts has really reached beating a dead horse territory, don't you think?  

I quoted you twice, not repeatedly. 

Quote

I'm sure Tinsley does like the stature conferred by wealth and pedigree. Maybe she even feels dependent upon it in some respects. 

Which means ... what exactly, speaking practically, vis a vis her boyfriend tackling her, holding her face down into the sidewalk, and ensuring she needs staples in her head?

Well said. 

[lunastartron]

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I am not sure what you are advocating here.  For a women to stay in a violent situation and try to change the abuser? Isn't it usually the victim who has to eventually fix the situation, hopefully with the support of a network of professionals and a legal system willing to help? Of course it is ultimately the fault of the abuser for the abuse. He/she is the one responsible for the abuse, but it is usually the victim that has to somehow find a way to to put a stop to it. It is all kinds of sucky and unfair, but isn't that the way it works? In a perfect world we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the world is not perfect. 

I don't disagree with your point on the whole. I do, however, think language and loaded words like "responsibility" are important in general but especially within contexts involving concepts that are historocally misunderstood.

For example, it is a sad reality of our imperfect world that a woman walking down a street alone at night and/or simply attending a party is prey to sexual assault. Clearly, she's not responsible for any violence perpetrated upon her. Is she responsible for what she wears outside that night - like a domestic violence victim contacting a shelter, her attire is under her prohibitive control. Every woman in America knows the story of "but what was she wearing," so does that inevitability establish "responsibility" for how her wardrobe is construed? 

Many people probably feel this is a matter of semantics but, IMO, semantics are critical in terms of discussing ingrained problematic ideas.

So, yes, I think "responsibility" and "acknowldgement of that responsibility" are troubling in the broader discourse of Tinsley, the documented brutalization she incurred, how quickly she left Nico, and domestic violence at large. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by lunastartron

[BBHN]

31 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

Super Douche Jason just pops up all over the place.

Thank goodness he was arrested, that is the only thing that has made him finally stop - Bethenny has has a more peaceful existence since January 27th

"You will never be free of me!"

Quote

I am not sure what you are advocating here.  For a women to stay in a violent situation and try to change the abuser? Isn't it usually the victim who has to eventually fix the situation, hopefully with the support of a network of professionals and a legal system willing to help? Of course it is ultimately the fault of the abuser for the abuse. He/she is the one responsible for the abuse, but it is usually the victim that has to somehow find a way to to put a stop to it. It is all kinds of sucky and unfair, but isn't that the way it works? In a perfect world we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the world is not perfect. 

Amen.

[Celia Rubenstein]

51 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

Quote

... it hasn't been about encouraging a woman (Tinsley in this case) to leave an abusive situation, it's been about judging Tinsley for not leaving sooner, better or more perfectly.

Thank your articulating this so clearly. Your point is emphasized from my perspective by the following.

"Tinsley certainly had it within her means to leave and be completely free of the situation- she was in no way financially dependent upon him, had no children with the guy - she repeatedly chose to try and force the relationship"

Did I state something that was factually inaccurate in my post speculating about why Bethenny may tend to not see Tinsley as a traditional powerless victim of domestic abuse? 

If I understand correctly Tinsley is (reasonably) wealthy in her own right.  She was not financially dependent upon her former boyfriend.  She had no children with him.  No permanent ties. She was perfectly free to walk away from the relationship at any time.  The man wanted nothing to do with her any more. 

Moreover, she seemed to be the one initiating contact with him, contact which was so unwanted that she was arrested for trespassing and a restraining order was issued against her.  I think this behavior this extreme is something that is hardly typical of typical domestic violence victims, but YMMV.  It surely happens, but probably not that often.

At any rate, this scenario seems to me to be a reasonable explanation for why  Bethenny might question Tinsley's situation. And if I am correct and this is why Bethenny said what she did about Tinsley, it makes sense in terms of Beth's relationship with her mother, which was my original point.  Bethenny saw her mother engaging in similar behavior and refuse to take any responsibility for it.  She doesn't seem to view someone who acts that way worthy of the title "victim."  She is a hardass who seems to hold people accountable for the things they put themselves through when they have other perfectly acceptable options.  Some people are like that. 

Nobody is saying anyone has to like it or agree with her.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[KungFuBunny]

George Takei was shown this picture of Jason Hoppy

What George had to say

[BBHN]

I can't tell whose mustache is more "no bueno", Jason's or this...

[Celia Rubenstein]

They both looks like 70's porn stars. Puke.

[SCS]

3 hours ago, Happy Camper said:

3 hours ago, BBHN said:

Maybe Bethanny should  have a face to face with Tinsley about what she has endured. Then shut her mouth.

You've made an error in your quoting. What you have here ^^ is not at all what BBHN said.

What follows is what BBHN posted:

 

3 hours ago, BBHN said:

Maybe we should all have a face to face with Bethenny about what she has endured via Jason...but we'll all probably keep commenting anyway.

Ha!

 

Accuracy is our friend.

[LIMOM]

56 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Did I state something that was factually inaccurate in my post speculating about why Bethenny may tend to not see Tinsley as a traditional powerless victim of domestic abuse? 

If I understand correctly Tinsley is (reasonably) wealthy in her own right.  She was not financially dependent upon her former boyfriend.  She had no children with him.  No permanent ties. She was perfectly free to walk away from the relationship at any time.  The man wanted nothing to do with her any more. 

Moreover, she seemed to be the one initiating contact with him, contact which was so unwanted that she was arrested for trespassing and a restraining order was issued against her.  I think this behavior this extreme is something that is hardly typical of typical domestic violence victims, but YMMV.  It surely happens, but probably not that often.

At any rate, this scenario seems to me to be a reasonable explanation for why  Bethenny might question Tinsley's situation. And if I am correct and this is why Bethenny said what she did about Tinsley, it makes sense in terms of Beth's relationship with her mother, which was my original point.  Bethenny saw her mother engaging in similar behavior and refuse to take any responsibility for it.  She doesn't seem to view someone who acts that way worthy of the title "victim."  She is a hardass who seems to hold people accountable for the things they put themselves through when they have other perfectly acceptable options.  Some people are like that. 

Nobody is saying anyone has to like it or agree with her.

In regard to Beth's mother, she suffers from mental illness according to Beth and this is why imo she was unable to leave.

Beth a hard ass? Nope, she is actually quite sensitive, imo.

I think that Beth views every single relationship that she has  thru the one she had with Bernadette.

ew are moustaches a thing for men, now?

Edited June 24, 2017 by LIMOM

[motorcitymom65]

1 hour ago, lunastartron said:

I don't disagree with your point on the whole. I do, however, think language and loaded words like "responsibility" are important in general but especially within contexts involving concepts that are historocally misunderstood.

For example, it is a sad reality of our imperfect world that a woman walking down a street alone at night and/or simply attending a party is prey to sexual assault. Clearly, she's not responsible for any violence perpetrated upon her. Is she responsible for what she wears outside that night - like a domestic violence victim contacting a shelter, her attire is under her prohibitive control. Every woman in America knows the story of "but what was she wearing," so does that inevitability establish "responsibility" for how her wardrobe is construed? 

Many people probably feel this is a matter of semantics but, IMO, semantics are critical in terms of discussing ingrained problematic ideas.

So, yes, I think "responsibility" and "acknowldgement of that responsibility" are troubling in the broader discourse of Tinsley, the documented brutalization she incurred, how quickly she left Nico, and domestic violence at large. 

Ok, well then the point that Celia was originally making sounds like one folks can get on board with. The victim unfortunately has to be the one to force the change. If the word "responsibility" is the problem, what word would sound better? 

[BBHN]

Quote

If the word "responsibility" is the problem, what word would sound better? 

Quick, to thesaurus.com...

[film noire]

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Ok, well then the point that Celia was originally making sounds like one folks can get on board with. 

For what it's worth,  I'm not  one of those "folks" who can get on board :) Especially not these comments (eta posted by Celia - the attribution isn't turning up in the quote box):

Quote

I think it is an acknowledgment of a way a victim can protect herself by taking responsibility for her own safety

If they could protect themselves by taking responsibility for their own safety, they wouldn’t be in an abusive relationship.

Quote

But the choice of a woman to stay in a situation like that when she is able to leave is on her. 

Victims of abuse do not choose to stay and be abused; that implies they are weighing options -- choice -- when that kind of self-loving thought is all but made impossible by abuse, which robs people of the ability to choose self care over self harm, to value themselves enough to go, to believe they won't be shamed for being abused to begin with (never mind fear for their very lives) etc etc etc.

If anybody wants to hear from the survivors of abuse, the hashtag "Why I Stayed"on twitter has first person insight.

Edited June 25, 2017 by film noire

[Jel]

4 hours ago, lunastartron said:

Don't you know? It's the victim's responsibility in a domestic violence paradigm to fix the situation. 

Literally no one said this. At any time. In any of these posts.

The closest anyone has ever come to saying anything like that, in this thread, is the people who claim that Bethenny couldn't be a victim of stalking because she's such a bitch, and well, she kind of made Jason so mad that he couldn't help himself.

[Celia Rubenstein]

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Ok, well then the point that Celia was originally making sounds like one folks can get on board with. The victim unfortunately has to be the one to force the change. If the word "responsibility" is the problem, what word would sound better? 

I have lost track reading these endless posts quoting me, but I believe the specific post using the word "responsibility"  was made by Jel.  But feel free to attribute her wisdom and insight to me if you prefer.  I can live with that! 

 

39 minutes ago, film noire said:

For what it's worth,  I'm not  one of those "folks" who can get on board :) Especially not with these comments (snipped)

I snipped your post because this repeating everything I've said over and over is getting weird, lol!  More importantly, it is seriously bogging things down.  This isn't the "Celia Rubenstein Said!" thread and everyone can read what I posted for themselves.  I would prefer they did at this point, because many of these quotes of mine that are being posted are being taken out of context and that doesn't do the discussion any good.  Not to mention some things I didn't even say are being attributed to me, robbing poor Jel of the credit she richly deserves, lol! 

[Lemons]

8 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

 

While there is little doubt that Tinsley was a victim of physical abuse (we've all see the receipts), it was rumored that she dished out a fair amount of whoop-ass on her boyfriend during those drunken brawls, herself.  And despite his attempts to end their relationship and even moving on with other women,  Tinsley refused to leave him alone (to the point that she was arrested for trespassing).  Between that and the fact that Tinsley certainly had it within her means to leave and be completely free of the situation- she was in no way financially dependent upon him, had no children with the guy - she repeatedly chose to try and force the relationship.  Some say it was because she wanted in on that sugar-money funded, top-wrung Palm Beach lifestyle.  And she didn't prosecute this guy because it would alienate him even further, not because she was powerless or in some kind of fear of him.

You seem to suggest that all women who experience stalking, harassment, violence are obligated to support each other.  I don't think that is a fair expectation at all.  Being an abuse or stalking victim is not some kind of "club" you are automatically enrolled in by virtue of your experience as a victim.  It doesn't require you to adopt a certain viewpoint about the subject in general or about another woman in particular.  

 

I don't think it's just rumored that Tinsley was also abusive, I think there are police reports on both of them. Of course tinsley is a tiny woman and her boyfriend was obviously more powerful and quite vicious. The last arrest between tinsley and her boyfriend was Tinsley showing up at his house. The police claim when they got there tinsley was incoherent and upset about his new girlfriend. It must be terrifying to be attacked like Tinsley was.  But what bothers me about Tinsley is how she talks about "what happened to her" in a passive voice. I don't think she takes any responsibility for continuing the relationship and refusing to press charges against him.

How bad is Florida law that the state couldn't prosecute him based on the severity of her injuries, even if she refused to cooperate?  

Bethany probably feels a little superiority that she would never take that kind of abuse. She left Jason and won't let him get away with anything. Bethany should probably keep quiet about Tinsley's situation. 

[Lemons]

1 hour ago, film noire said:

 

If they could protect themselves by taking responsibility for their own safety, they wouldn’t be in an abusive relationship.

 

Not always. Some are drawn to chaotic and even abusive relationships.  I can understand being terrified that if you leave he will find you and kill you. I understand some women believe that he will change. Some women believe that they can't make it on their own. And some women simply love their abuser. But to paint every women as a helpless victim who can't find a way to safety is insulting. Every story is unique. 

[motorcitymom65]

Getting back to the Jason and Beth part of it all, does anyone know how long a trial like Jason's will take? A day or two? More than that? 

[film noire]

6 minutes ago, Lemons said:

Not always. Some are drawn to chaotic and even abusive relationships.  I can understand being terrified that if you leave he will find you and kill you. I understand some women believe that he will change. Some women believe that they can't make it on their own. And some women simply love their abuser. But to paint every women as a helpless victim who can't find a way to safety is insulting. Every story is unique. 

If you are drawn to an abusive relationship, you are not protecting yourself. And there is no shame --or insult --  in being helpless, or a victim. It's not a morally inferior position.

Edited June 25, 2017 by film noire

[OnceSane]

Tinsley and her past are NOT on topic for this thread.  Take it to her thread.  

[Celia Rubenstein]

14 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Getting back to the Jason and Beth part of it all, does anyone know how long a trial like Jason's will take? A day or two? More than that? 

Yeah, lets get back to the good stuff!

There is a lot of email to comb through, witnesses to hear.  There will be considerable cross examination.  Not to mention picking a jury which in a case like this will take longer than usual due to the celebrity/publicity factor.

I would expect maybe ... three or four days? 

Any bets on whether Jason will take the stand?  My bet is on "no."  I think he will count on the jury to find the stuff he did doesn't amount to harassment or stalking and opt to not risk being exposed made to look like a complete nutbag on the stand.

[film noire]

32 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Jason and Beth 

Who?? :)

Edited June 25, 2017 by film noire

[zoeysmom]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

Literally no one said this. At any time. In any of these posts.

The closest anyone has ever come to saying anything like that, in this thread, is the people who claim that Bethenny couldn't be a victim of stalking because she's such a bitch, and well, she kind of made Jason so mad that he couldn't help himself.

I can only speak to my observations of Bethenny Frankel but my position is that Bethenny can be very cutting and crude in her remarks to others.  She has even gone so far as to say, "I give it to Luann as hard as anyone,. . . ," so if one admits they give it hard to someone why is it they can't take it?  If you set the ground rules as being no holds bar in the way you address people it just seems to me you cannot turn around and claim you are suffering material harm when someone speaks to you the way you speak to others.  As to the stalking charges my comments were rooted in the elements of the crime, in that one of the elements was "no legitimate purpose" engages in a course of conduct and NO LEGITIMATE PURPOSE is defined as "there is no reason or justification to engage in a course of conduct directed at the person other than to hound, frighten, intimidate or threaten the person."  In this case I cannot understand why Dennis who not only had a C&D sent to Jason but put it out in the press would be at the minor child's school when it was Jason's time to be there.  It would seem to me Jason had a legitimate purpose to be at the school. 

As to Jason being a stalker I have outlined what I feel are some defense strategies.  As to it not being possible that a bitch like Bethenny could not be a victim of stalking, obviously there could be a Teresa Saldana situation where a crazed fan stalked her, even an old boyfriend.  Anyone, good or bad can be a victim of stalking.

[Celia Rubenstein]

6 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

As to the stalking charges my comments were rooted in the elements of the crime, in that one of the elements was "no legitimate purpose" engages in a course of conduct and NO LEGITIMATE PURPOSE is defined as "there is no reason or justification to engage in a course of conduct directed at the person other than to hound, frighten, intimidate or threaten the person."  In this case I cannot understand why Dennis who not only had a C&D sent to Jason but put it out in the press would be at the minor child's school when it was Jason's time to be there.  It would seem to me Jason had a legitimate purpose to be at the school. 

But did he have a legitimate purpose to approach Bethenny at the school and say the things he said to her?  That is what he is accused of doing wrong.  Not just being there, but acting like an ass while he was there to the extent that he broke the law.

[zoeysmom]

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Getting back to the Jason and Beth part of it all, does anyone know how long a trial like Jason's will take? A day or two? More than that? 

In non-custodial misdemeanor trials there can be a bump giving preference to in custody defendants.  Hopefully there is a courtroom available. First the Court will hear pre-trial motions.  These can be cumbersome if there are motions made as to what evidence can be presented.  Next is jury selection.  This can take anywhere from a couple of hours to two days.  Then the prosecutor will give an opening statement or a road map of what they intend to present, mentioning how they will prove each and every element of the crimes charged.  Next the defense will give their opening statement.  Since this case involves a lot of evidentiary material in the form of e-mails, they will have to certified as true and correct.  The prosecution will then present the e-mails, call Bethenny so she can testify as to her mental state upon receiving the same and any other witnesses to bolster the State's case.  For every witness there is cross examination, redirect and even recross.  At the conclusion of the State's case there is usually a motion for a directed verdict meaning the State has not met it's burden.  Then the defense puts on its case in chief and its witnesses are subjected to the same direct, cross, redirect and recross.  The State then gives their summation, the defense gives their closing argument and the State their closing argument.  The Court then reads the jury instructions and the jury is sent to deliberate.  There is no set time for deliberation.  If Jason is found guilty it will be set for sentencing,  If he is acquitted game over.