The Men of Sex and the City

[andromeda331]

I was going to post this in Carrie's section but this is more about Big so this is probably the better place. I do wonder on Big though. Was it the big wedding that was throwing him for a loop or was it the marriage thing? And why? Was it because he messed it up twice and was worried about doing that again? I can't decide if its in character for him to be that worried about getting married a third time. Mostly because I've never been able to figure him out. I mean he tells Carrie he never wants to get married again then seven months later marries Natasha. He comes and goes from New York and then buys a vineyard. He also comes and goes from Carrie's life. Does he love her? Is he playing with her? What does he want? At the end of the series he decides he loves her and goes after her. Why? What has made him realize he loves her? 

[Inquisitionist]

Mostly because I've never been able to figure him out.

 

What's worse is that I don't think the writers ever figured him out either.  :-(

[Bella]

What's worse is that I don't think the writers ever figured him out either.  :-(

 

I agree. Thanks to the rewatch, it also sticks in my mind that in the very first episode, when he made his initial appearance, he was said to be "the next Donald Trump." But that scaled down pretty fast. "Hot Wall Street phenom" or "the up-and-coming hot multi-millionaire du jour" might have been more accurate, but I don't think the writers ever really knew who they wanted him to be.

[tobia]

Did we ever get any sort of timeline on how long Charlotte knew Harry or Trey before they got married? Both of their dating relationships seemed so very compressed, but I'm never sure what the length between or within episodes is in "show time"?

[Scarlett45]

Charlotte got engaged to Trey after 7weeks of dating and I assume it too a few months to throw that wedding together- so most certainly less than a year, I think maybe 6months.

I think she and Harry were dating casually for a couple of months, then she started her conversion to Judiasm, then they got married. BUT it was less than a year because they were married when Brady had his first birthday but weren't even dating when he was born (I remember because Samantha was stalking Richard in that episode). So she didn't know Harry a long time either.

[andromeda331]

What's worse is that I don't think the writers ever figured him out either.  :-( I agree. Thanks to the rewatch, it also sticks in my mind that in the very first episode, when he made his initial appearance, he was said to be "the next Donald Trump." But that scaled down pretty fast. "Hot Wall Street phenom" or "the up-and-coming hot multi-millionaire du jour" might have been more accurate, but I don't think the writers ever really knew who they wanted him to be.

 

 

I think your both right. As Bella said he was at first the next Donald Trump. He was also interesting that episode when Carrie was researching women who have sex like men and he said she wasn't like that and neither was he. I also liked his answer when she asked him if he had ever been in love. The second episode he was interesting too when she was researching men who date models his first answer about like being beautiful women was nice but what was even interesting was what he told her at the end. He sounded interesting those episodes he came off as interesting but knowing what he wanted. Then the writers either changed him or forgot what he was suppose to be. Too bad I liked him in the first few episodes he was interesting and I always liked his answers to her. Although he does confuse me early on by his lack of response to Carrie stalking his ex-wife and other crazy behavior why that doesn't scare him off I don't know. But every time he leaves and comes back to New York he becomes harder to figure out. It would have been nice if the writers would have decided what who he was suppose to be. 

Edited August 10, 2014 by andromeda331

[ktwo]

Question about Harry: when he and Charlotte first have sex, he mentions that he is divorced. Do we ever hear about that again?

[Scarlett45]

No I don't think we hear about it again. It may have been a short marriage and since they didn't have children.....not everyone can stay friends with their ex.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm so glad this topic exists, and I'm so glad other posters have ranted about some of the other guys.

 

Because I am here to rant about Steve!

 

I hate Steve.  Haaaaaaate.  Haaate.  Haaaate.  And it doesn't help that I find him so unbearably unattractive, either, probably, but I assure you.  I do hate his personality.

 

I've been rewatching the series, and it's been incredibly enjoyable (of course) and so is the first movie.  I'm not even going to get in the movie (for now), because I'll probably go psycho, but let's just start with the series itself.  I was surprised at how much I was watching Miranda and Steve's "relationship" and just screaming at the screen.  Seriously!  It reminded me of how I recently rewatched The Devil Wears Prada, a movie I always enjoyed, and realized that the entire movie seemed to be about (to me) all of Andy's friends, boyfriend, family not respecting her career or aspirations but absolutely demanding that she respect all of theirs. Argh!

 

My basic reasoning is that Steve has a huge sense of entitlement.  Whenever Steve did not get anything from Miranda in the relationship on the timeline that he demanded it, he threw a huge tantrum and then Miranda eventually gave in.  Rinse, and repeat.  This happened again and again.  (Looking at Wikipedia, this seems to be when they date in Season 3.)

 

Steve wants Miranda to watch him do that basketball contest thing.  Miranda says she's too busy with her work.  Steve throws a tantrum and literally, a basketball until Miranda caves.  Just an example.  I swear there are more examples because I was screaming a lot, I just can't pinpoint them right now.  I think Steve pressures Miranda into dating "steady" and then moving in together both before she's ready.

 

Finally, in "The Big Time" (Season 3) Steve tries to pressure Miranda into having a baby before she's ready. This was my last straw and thank god Miranda's too because she finally dumped him after they had numerous issues.  Maybe they're kind of a mirror image of Carrie and Big in some sense, with Steve being the Carrie.

 

You can see where this leads, to the first movie, where I think Steve is just an unrepentant asshole and of course all of Miranda's friends claim she is the one who is the asshole for being cheated on, and Carrie calls her an idiot and demands Miranda take him back.... Oh, the humanity.

 

To switch topics to something much nicer, Smith.  Early on when Sam and Smith are dating, Smith confessed that he's in AA and he spent 8 years of his life fucked up in Seattle.  I always remember that line.  I think it helps explain his compassion and maturity.  Very hard not to like that dude in my opinion.

 

Also, Berger.  Everything said about him -- he's insecure, etc. -- I agree with.  However, I credit the writers for this intensely fascinating character.  I'm grateful for his addition to the show and even though he might aggravate me a bit I really enjoy the aggravation in his case.  He's just so believable, and real....

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ms Blue Jay

[Hanahope]

Maybe they're kind of a mirror image of Carrie and Big in some sense, with Steve being the Carrie.

 

Yes, I can definitely see that.  I wonder if this is part of the thing with both Miranda and Big have higher paying and more demanding jobs such that their 'love life' is not the only thing in their life.  In a way, you can see how Carrie finally realizes that she too really does have a job/career that she wants respect for and can contribute to her feelings of 'worth' more than as just the 'girlfriend' when she goes to Paris with the Russian.

[Maherjunkie]

To be fair the basketball contest was a one off thing, no?  I don't think Carrie particularly cared about her career if the Aleks had given her any attention.

[CleoCaesar]

Word to your whole post, Ms Blue Jay. I've bitched a lot about the dynamics of the Steve/Miranda relationship back in the day on TWoP. Upon repeated viewings of the series, their relationship just seems terribly one-sided. It's like a weekly installment of Miranda Needs to Learn How to Compromise. Everything about that relationship went Steve's way. She needs to be open to a relationship. She needs to cut back on her hours. She has to agree to get a dog that he doesn't take care of. She has to agree to baptize Brady. She has to compromise on the honeymoon. She has to agree to move to Brooklyn. She has to agree to take care of his mother. Seemingly every subplot of theirs had to do with Miranda learning a lesson, being chastised for not putting Steve first, or "changing" for her relationship. I don't remember a single instance of Steve being the one to compromise. It was always Miranda. And the way Steve went about it usually was mildly passive-aggressive to full-on condescending ("this isn't just about you, Miranda"). Steve got a pretty sweet deal, really.

 

It reminded me of how I recently rewatched The Devil Wears Prada, a movie I always enjoyed, and realized that the entire movie seemed to be about (to me) all of Andy's friends, boyfriend, family not respecting her career or aspirations but absolutely demanding that she respect all of theirs. Argh!

 

 

I freaking hated Andy's boyfriend and her awful friends. In my mind, she never quit her job, dumped her clingy loser boyfriend and friends, became a writer for Miranda's magazine and became BFFs with Emily. But no, a toxic relationship where you give up your ambitions and emerging interests is the way to go. ARGH.

 

Miranda and Steve was just another version of that. The woman compromises essentially everything, the man compromises absolutely nothing.

[Ms Blue Jay]

CleoCaesar  - yes.  Thanks for helping draw back to specific instances.  I'm getting angry just reading about the relationship in your post.  Steve actually makes me that physically angry.  Maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if I felt that the writers were somewhat on Miranda's side, because in some cases, (the first movie is the best example), they seem full-blown on Steve's.  That 3rd season seems a lot of, let's pooh pooh Miranda's life as a headstrong career-focused woman.  Oh god.  It's so unbearable for me.  Steve's childish tantrums were the absolute worst.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ms Blue Jay

[Inquisitionist]

She needs to be open to a relationship. She needs to cut back on her hours. She has to agree to get a dog that he doesn't take care of. She has to agree to baptize Brady. She has to compromise on the honeymoon. She has to agree to move to Brooklyn. She has to agree to take care of his mother.

 

Try switching genders:  what man with the kind of professional responsibilities and aspirations Miranda had would agree to all that crap?  And who would expect him to do so?

[Bella]

I'm so glad I'm not alone in disliking Steve. Over the entire course of the series, I probably spent 5 or so minutes thinking he was good for Miranda because he made her lighten up a bit. And the rest of the time, I thought he was a self-centered child who pitched major tantrums if he didn't get his way and brought nothing to the relationship except demands, demands, and more demands.

 

Miranda would have been better off following Samantha's lead in many respects. Sam had the career she wanted without the entanglements she didn't want (for the most part). Granted, their careers were different, but in matching Miranda to the other three, Sam's career path was closest. Had Miranda taken just a few more cues from Sam and not let Steve dominate her, she probably would have been a lot happier.

[CleoCaesar]

Steve actually makes me that physically angry.  Maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if I felt that the writers were somewhat on Miranda's side, because in some cases, (the first movie is the best example), they seem full-blown on Steve's.

 

Oh god yes. Not that I condone physical violence in real life, but it would have been really satisfying to see Miranda haul off and slug Steve during their therapy session where he whined, "You made it hard for me to trust you...how you treated me...cutting me out of your life like that." UGH. He fucks another woman and still somehow whines and feels like the victim. And yes, it is fairly standard protocol to separate from a cheating spouse and cut off unnecessary contact. What an entitled, whiny brat he really was at the core.

 

(That being said, the Steve/Miranda relationship didn't grate too much on me because it gave us a lot of great Cynthia Nixon scenes, both dramatic and comedic.)

[ladle]

Funnily enough, Oxygen is playing "The Devil Wears Prada" after its SatC reruns tonight.

 

I always thought I sort of unfairly disliked Steve, since my opinion of him was skewed by the fact that I once was in the same restaurant as the actor and he was drunk and talking suuuuper loudly and disruptively in that annoying voice.  (He may be a nice guy, but that's my only frame of reference.)  But, yeah, the way he treated Miranda-- and the way the other ladies reacted to it-- always pissed me off.  Grr.

[ShellSeeker]

Yeah, I always thought Steve was a little immature. He seemed to get dumbed down as the series progressed. I know a lot of people didn't like the way the other women kind of chastised Miranda when he cheated on her, which I could see. But I always think of one scene in the series where Miranda says something about Steve thinking she's judgmental. And Carrie says, "Miranda, you are judgmental." And Miranda kind of laughed, but she admitted that she was. I'm clearly in the minority, but I always thought that Carrie, Charlotte, and Samantha weren't really criticizing her. Miranda was always a very black and white type of person, quick to evaluate a situation and make a decision, and then stick with it. In this case, she very quickly decided that she and Steve were done, and that was that. I think her friends were trying to get her to really stop and think about that and do some soul searching before taking that final step, and be absolutely sure it was the right thing to do, instead of rushing into it and perhaps regretting it later. But clearly the movie did not do a great job in conveying that, since so many people saw it as her friends being critical.

[27bored]

I...don't know. I thought the show alternated between Steve's levels of maturity to fit the situation to whatever point they wanted to make about Miranda. Steve was immature and not as stable as Miranda and they had a good reason to break up, and I didn't understand why he'd be dating while he's sleeping on the couch in his ex-girlfriend's place. That said, Miranda's problem was she liked driving down the My Way Highway. I think that habit played into her not wanting to be with Steve, not wanting to have Brady, not wanting to move to Brooklyn, etc. It wasn't borne out of immaturity the way Steve's problems were, but it wasn't conducive to a relationship all the same.

 

As far as the cheating goes, and I said this on TWoP, Miranda pretty much brought that on herself. Don't misconstrue this as being a defense of Steve or me saying she deserved it and/or she "literally" made him go out and cheat, but Miranda didn't want to accept the fact that being married sometimes means paying attention to your husband. Had it been a thing of Miranda just working long hours like she always did and Steve just going out and getting a side piece because he's bored, that would've been totally his fault. But Miranda is a grown ass woman; you shouldn't have to be told that going months without having sex in a marriage isn't exactly healthy, and for no real reason other than "I'm busy". And you're grouching through dinner with your family, and when you finally let Steve get on top of you, you say "let's just get it over with". And, to wrap all this shady shit up in a cloying douche bun, you make time to hang out with your girlfriends, including sucking on Carrie like she's a cherry sour. She took her relationship for granted and got burned as a result of it. She wasn't a bad person, but I think it was indicative of how Miranda always saw Steve. I think she saw herself as being a catch and Steve being lucky to be with her, not unlike Charlotte with Harry.

[CleoCaesar]

I see what you're saying about the cheating, 27bored, but to me that whole plotline felt like yet another installment of Miranda Needs to Learn a Lesson. Right away she's painted as the bad guy, the unreasonable, cold, grouchy shrew who neglects her husband, and in the end, she compromises (staying with a cheater) and reforms (has sex with him) and we the audience is supposed to see it as positive growth. It's the exact same thing as every other Steve/Miranda storyline. She compromises, he does not, we are supposed to cheer. (And even Miranda's friends formed a Greek chorus chastising her. Sam: "Anyone can have a slip." Charlotte: "You really can't forgive him?" Carrie: "How does Steve feel? ...It's forgiveness.")

 

Maybe it's a tall order for the writers, but wouldn't a more interesting arc have been Steve cheating (if they absolutely needed to go that route, which they didn't) and Miranda seriously reevaluating the relationship by considering how much she gave up for Steve and how little he does in return (we never see Steve as a husband, so he might do a lot, but I doubt it), reconsidering reentering the dating scene in her 40s, wondering about the life she could have had if she hadn't married Steve, etc. etc. Instead we get a very tiresome moralistic lesson.

Edited September 14, 2014 by CleoCaesar

[WendyCR72]

I...don't know. I thought the show alternated between Steve's levels of maturity to fit the situation to whatever point they wanted to make about Miranda. Steve was immature and not as stable as Miranda and they had a good reason to break up, and I didn't understand why he'd be dating while he's sleeping on the couch in his ex-girlfriend's place. That said, Miranda's problem was she liked driving down the My Way Highway. I think that habit played into her not wanting to be with Steve, not wanting to have Brady, not wanting to move to Brooklyn, etc. It wasn't borne out of immaturity the way Steve's problems were, but it wasn't conducive to a relationship all the same.

 

Because I don't want to repeat what was debated on TWoP, as you said, 27bored, I'll just say I will be in the minority with you as far as Steve/Miranda go.

[ShellSeeker]

 I think she saw herself as being a catch and Steve being lucky to be with her, not unlike Charlotte with Harry.

 

Replying to this in the Miranda thread.

[27bored]

I see what you're saying about the cheating, 27bored, but to me that whole plotline felt like yet another installment of Miranda Needs to Learn a Lesson. Right away she's painted as the bad guy, the unreasonable, cold, grouchy shrew who neglects her husband, and in the end, she compromises (staying with a cheater) and reforms (has sex with him) and we the audience is supposed to see it as positive growth. It's the exact same thing as every other Steve/Miranda storyline. She compromises, he does not, we are supposed to cheer. (And even Miranda's friends formed a Greek chorus chastising her. Sam: "Anyone can have a slip." Charlotte: "You really can't forgive him?" Carrie: "How does Steve feel? ...It's forgiveness.")

 

I see what you mean to a big extent. I know it seemed like they made Steve's cheating totally Miranda's fault and that wasn't right. She didn't make Steve cheat on her and she was obviously upset and hurt by it. But -- and this is reaching a bit, I know -- it might just be an extension of the fact that all three of them were in healthy relationships (well, kinda/sorta excluding Carrie) at the time that they could have a little perspective. I don't think they were chastising her, intentionally, but I think it's important to keep in mind problems you're blindsided by and problems you can be reasonably expected to anticipate based on your actions. Miranda and Steve's issue was pretty straightforward: she and Steve didn't have sex often, she seemed pretty blase-blah about rectifying that, Steve gave in in a moment of weakness and wound up hurting Miranda, and then she left. It's hard to take Miranda's side when it's obvious she was ignoring her husband. You make time for the people you love. Miranda somehow managing to understand that as it pertains to her girlfriends but not her own husband made it hard to really be on her side.

[ShellSeeker]

Yep, 27bored, you and I are in complete agreement on this. I remember you talking about this on TWOP, because you said that it happened at least in part because Miranda spent most of her time "power lunching out of Carrie's ass crack," which still makes me laugh. The only thing I don't like about that line is that it's unlikely I'll ever be presented with an opportunity to use it.

[CleoCaesar]

Miranda and Steve's issue was pretty straightforward: she and Steve didn't have sex often, she seemed pretty blase-blah about rectifying that, Steve gave in in a moment of weakness and wound up hurting Miranda, and then she left. It's hard to take Miranda's side when it's obvious she was ignoring her husband. You make time for the people you love. Miranda somehow managing to understand that as it pertains to her girlfriends but not her own husband made it hard to really be on her side.

 

I think we might be talking about slightly different things. For me it's not about who was at fault or who caused the rift in the marriage - it was that Miranda had to go through yet another episode of "personal growth" where she learns the importance of compromise and how to be a good wife. They really couldn't have found something different for Miranda or Miranda/Steve?

 

I'd go so far as to say that none of the men of SATC were fully fleshed out characters and that their purpose was essentially that of plot devices and ways for the 4 main characters to change and grow. Miranda's romantic arc seemed the most...punitive. She started out a hyper independent, abrasive, kind of unpleasant career woman and over the course of 6 seasons compromised over and over and over again until she ended up a married mother living outside Manhattan taking care of her family and mother-in-law. How selfless, how sacrificing, how frustrating to watch. No one changed as much as Miranda in/for her relationship, IMO. (Sam didn't fundamentally change anything about herself - she'd been monogamous before; Charlotte did change her religion but still got the fairytale life of a Park Avenue princess and the family she always wanted; and Carrie...well, Carrie pretty much got everything handed to her on a silver platter and I didn't notice any major growth in her at all, if her ridiculous "I'm looking for all-consuming, can't-live-without-you love" speech was any indicator.) Miranda, though... Yikes.

[WendyCR72]

Yep, 27bored, you and I are in complete agreement on this. I remember you talking about this on TWOP, because you said that it happened at least in part because Miranda spent most of her time "power lunching out of Carrie's ass crack," which still makes me laugh. The only thing I don't like about that line is that it's unlikely I'll ever be presented with an opportunity to use it.

 

Oh God, yes, 27bored (née 21bored over at TWoP) was cracking MY ass up about the whole Miranda/Steve cheating arc and Miranda's partial culpability. And I agreed with it.

 

Was Steve wrong to cheat? Yup. Was he weak? Absolutely. Could he be immature and whatnot? Uh huh!

 

But I think Miranda was just as flawed, and Steve's cheating didn't happen in a vacuum. As the movie showed, Miranda had all the time for the other 3 women but then whined about her kid (with Magda living in, no less!), treated her marriage like it was a daily trip to the gynecologist, hadn't had sex in MONTHS...and yet she was blindsided by Steve's cheating? She didn't see ANY signs that they needed to really work at things?

 

Well then, Stevie Wonder had better vision there than Miranda did.

 

All that said, Miranda was my favorite of the four women - AND I loved Miranda and Steve together. 'Tis true.

[Stella MD]

I still wished they had picked something other than cheating. They could have had Steve think about cheating, or threaten to leave, or actually leave and take up with someone else if they wanted Miranda to reflect on the events that brought him to that decision. Cheating, though - I know everyone's mileage varies, but in my mind Miranda had every right to throw his shit out the window, change the lock, and never look back, regardless of what went down beforehand. And I still maintain that the unsupportiveness from her friends is only because Miranda (and her "horrible" selfish, career-oriented, non-feminine traits) was this show's favorite whipping post. Like Charlotte would have ever taken back a cheater, or tolerated her friends telling her she should? Or (this is so absurd it's laughable), the girls would ever have suggested that Carrie take Big back if he cheated? Nope, poor little Carrie got spoon-fed soup because her life was forever ruined by her terrible fiance showing up 30 minutes late to the alter (an event for which she was totally blameless, per usual), but her own friends paint Miranda as the unreasonable one when she won't tolerate her husband cheating. Eyeroll times infinity.

[Maherjunkie]

I think it was because Steve was perceived as so likeable that is was harder to accept.  I can see Charlotte accepting this with a lot of work.

[Hanahope]

Or (this is so absurd it's laughable), the girls would ever have suggested that Carrie take Big back if he cheated?

 

Not to mention that Carrie cheated on Aidin with Big, and then Big cheated with her on Natasha.  Since Carrie was always the cheater, of course she empathizes with Steve, another cheater, and can't empathize with Miranda being the cheatee.

[CleoCaesar]

I could actually see Charlotte taking back a cheater, particularly in the early seasons. Her dogged fixation on the trappings of an upper class, WASPy life were so ingrained that I could see her "looking the other way" if the guy otherwise fit the bill. If Harry cheated, I imagine she'd be devastated, but I don't think she would pack up and leave him and the kids. (Not to mention she has no career or way to support herself, so that's another incentive for staying.) But yeah, hypothetical scenario.

[27bored]

Queasy-bo and Wendy, thanks for remembering the crazy shit that comes flying out of my mouth via the Internet. Unfortunately, outside of my friends, I don't have much of an outlet in real life to say horrible things about people. I'm not saying that stops me, but you know...

 

I think we might be talking about slightly different things. For me it's not about who was at fault or who caused the rift in the marriage - it was that Miranda had to go through yet another episode of "personal growth" where she learns the importance of compromise and how to be a good wife. They really couldn't have found something different for Miranda or Miranda/Steve?

 

I'd go so far as to say that none of the men of SATC were fully fleshed out characters and that their purpose was essentially that of plot devices and ways for the 4 main characters to change and grow. Miranda's romantic arc seemed the most...punitive. She started out a hyper independent, abrasive, kind of unpleasant career woman and over the course of 6 seasons compromised over and over and over again until she ended up a married mother living outside Manhattan taking care of her family and mother-in-law. How selfless, how sacrificing, how frustrating to watch. No one changed as much as Miranda in/for her relationship, IMO. (Sam didn't fundamentally change anything about herself - she'd been monogamous before; Charlotte did change her religion but still got the fairytale life of a Park Avenue princess and the family she always wanted; and Carrie...well, Carrie pretty much got everything handed to her on a silver platter and I didn't notice any major growth in her at all, if her ridiculous "I'm looking for all-consuming, can't-live-without-you love" speech was any indicator.) Miranda, though... Yikes.

 

I can see what you mean. I think it's worth noting that Miranda changed mostly due to Steve (the show seemed to use him to see through Miranda's BS) and I think allowing Miranda to change showed a certain compassion for the character they sort of didn't have for the other characters. Miranda liked to get her way, with Steve, with her job, and everything else. Staying true to yourself displays a certain strength of character, but not being able to compromise for your significant other isn't exactly a strength. Miranda freaked out when faced with compromise and/or situations she didn't know how to deal with: she bailed.

 

I still wished they had picked something other than cheating. They could have had Steve think about cheating, or threaten to leave, or actually leave and take up with someone else if they wanted Miranda to reflect on the events that brought him to that decision. Cheating, though - I know everyone's mileage varies, but in my mind Miranda had every right to throw his shit out the window, change the lock, and never look back, regardless of what went down beforehand. And I still maintain that the unsupportiveness from her friends is only because Miranda (and her "horrible" selfish, career-oriented, non-feminine traits) was this show's favorite whipping post. Like Charlotte would have ever taken back a cheater, or tolerated her friends telling her she should? Or (this is so absurd it's laughable), the girls would ever have suggested that Carrie take Big back if he cheated? Nope, poor little Carrie got spoon-fed soup because her life was forever ruined by her terrible fiance showing up 30 minutes late to the alter (an event for which she was totally blameless, per usual), but her own friends paint Miranda as the unreasonable one when she won't tolerate her husband cheating. Eyeroll times infinity.

 

Well, to be fair some of their comments have to be taken in context. When she initially told them about Steve cheating, they were mostly supportive. The only person who really offered up a devil's advocate type defense was Sam, and that was really because she had looser morals when it came to that kind of stuff. Carrie saying it was a huge mistake she left Steve was, well, she kind of spiked the ball when she said it because she was pissed about Miranda's comment to Big, and Charlotte being the "true love conquers all" type, wanted to see them back together. I don't think any of them were giving her a hard time about it. I think some of it also had to do with them having known Steve for years and probably considered him something of a friend. This wasn't a guy she dated for a few months. They always knew Steve as being a soft-spoken, mild-mannered, almost shy, "regular guy" type who was willing to throw away his relationship with Debbie for Miranda. Kind of simple and uncomplicated. Plus, I go back to Miranda had just sort of waved off the whole "we haven't had sex in five months/let's just get it over with" thing and they were pretty non-judgmental about that, even though I think they all knew there was a little trouble in their relationship that Miranda was trying to ignore. 

[Stella MD]

 

Staying true to yourself displays a certain strength of character, but not being able to compromise for your significant other isn't exactly a strength.

I agree, but this has to be a two-way street or else one partner is just the doormat, compromising over and over. As others have pointed out upthread, when did we ever see Steve compromise on anything? He himself elected to bail on the relationship over a stupid suit, so it's not like we see any growth out of him at any point (in fact, I'd argue that he devolved into a pseudo-simian over the course of the show). And yet Miranda "wanting" to change into a totally different person to suit Steve was supposed to be seen as some sort of positive growth evolution. I call bullshit - I see the whole Miranda arc as nothing more than a simplistic, retro, misogynistic value judgement. Motherhood and self-sacrifice = good, being a woman with career goals = bad. FU, show.

[Maharincess]

Because I don't want to repeat what was debated on TWoP, as you said, 27bored, I'll just say I will be in the minority with you as far as Steve/Miranda go.

Me three.

I don't think Miranda gave up a lot. She had a baby and moved to Brooklyn. That's not giving anything up, its just changes.

[Inquisitionist]

I don't think Miranda gave up a lot.

 

She married a man-child doofus.  I'd say she gave up her dignity.  :-)

[izabella]

Didn't Miranda also give up her partnership at the law firm?  Because you can't be a wife, mother and a partner at a law firm or your husband will cheat on you?

 

Cheating is always the fault of the cheater.  Marriage problems are never solved by cheating - it just makes them worse.  If there are problems in the marriage and Steve was unhappy, he should have spent his time getting that across to Miranda, pushing marriage counseling, and then exiting the marriage if nothing worked instead of hanging out with other women and eventually cheating.  Cheating is always a choice, not an inevitable result of marriage problems.

[WendyCR72]

Didn't Miranda also give up her partnership at the law firm?

 

Sure, Miranda quit in the second (awful) movie, but that was HER choice. Steve told her to quit because Miranda was unhappy. It wasn't an order. She had free will. She took the risk.

[izabella]

Sure, Miranda quit in the second (awful) movie, but that was HER choice. Steve told her to quit because Miranda was unhappy. It wasn't an order. She had free will. She took the risk.

 

Is that how it happened?  Gosh, that's almost as bad, IMO.  Now it comes across to me as she can't be happy doing the job she loved and worked hard at all those years - that mommy-hood and wife-hood are so much more fulfilling!

 

Ugh, maybe I'm just crabby today!

[WendyCR72]

Is that how it happened?  Gosh, that's almost as bad, IMO.  Now it comes across to me as she can't be happy doing the job she loved and worked hard at all those years - that mommy-hood and wife-hood are so much more fulfilling!

 

Ugh, maybe I'm just crabby today!

 

But she ended up at another firm by the end that appreciated her and where her coworkers respected/liked her, per Carrie. So she didn't really give up anything. Now she had the best of both worlds. (Since Miranda quit after being shushed in a meeting about her ideas even though it was her case; she told off the guy and quit on the spot, and thus, went to Brady's school in time to see him win at his science fair.)

[izabella]

But she ended up at another firm by the end that appreciated her and where her coworkers respected/liked her, per Carrie. So she didn't really give up anything. Now she had the best of both worlds. (Since Miranda quit after being shushed in a meeting about her ideas even though it was her case; she told off the guy and quit on the spot, and thus, went to Brady's school in time to see him win at his science fair.)

Ok, that makes me feel better, she did get to stay true to herself.  Thank you!

[27bored]

 

I agree, but this has to be a two-way street or else one partner is just the doormat, compromising over and over. As others have pointed out upthread, when did we ever see Steve compromise on anything? He himself elected to bail on the relationship over a stupid suit, so it's not like we see any growth out of him at any point (in fact, I'd argue that he devolved into a pseudo-simian over the course of the show). And yet Miranda "wanting" to change into a totally different person to suit Steve was supposed to be seen as some sort of positive growth evolution. I call bullshit - I see the whole Miranda arc as nothing more than a simplistic, retro, misogynistic value judgement. Motherhood and self-sacrifice = good, being a woman with career goals = bad. FU, show.

 

I don't think that's really fair. Miranda was a focal point of the entire show, not Steve. I think Steve got his shit together after he and Miranda split, that's why he was able to buy the bar. He wanted to do right by Miranda when she told him she was pregnant. Miranda even mentioned how he was working all night and then taking care of his mother during the day once they realized she'd had a stroke. So, I mean, Steve wasn't just a man-child eating cereal watching Scoobie while his hard-working attorney wife paid the bills.

 

I'm not blaming Miranda for Steve's bullshit, but I'm not going to give her a whole lot of credit here. There are a lot of women who go through infidelity for truly fucked up reasons, who truly didn't do anything to deserve that kind of betrayal from their spouse. Steve just wanted to knock boots every once in awhile. If you can't get it up for your husband you're kind of just spinning your wheels and wasting his time and yours. Miranda just wasn't hitting on much in the wife department if she couldn't see how simple this problem is. Tell your boss your need to cut back your hours because you have other responsibilities, buy Brady a PS3, set aside one weekend a month to go visit Steve's mom, and most importantly, tell Carrie and Charlotte and Sam if they want to hang they're gonna have to do it on your lunch break or come out to Brooklyn. Boom. Done. She took Steve for granted because she figured he loved her more than she loved him. And I think that dynamic is what a lot of people in this show kind of agreed on, so when her friends were like "eh, you sure you can't work it out?" it comes off as demeaning because Steve was supposed to be the one begging for Miranda to come back. But Miranda didn't love and cherish her relationship with Steve as much as she should've, her life-altering compromises aside.

[WendyCR72]

Ah, 27bored. Another great post. Or at least I think it was.

[saki]

I also hated Steve and the way that Steve/Miranda was portrayed.  We got endless episodes about the need for Miranda to 'compromise' but somehow Steve never needed to compromise. He gets everything his way in their relationship and still manages to whine about how hard it is for him.  To take just one example, Miranda somehow ends up apologising to him for not being ok with him just wandering into her apartment any time he feels like it to see Brady - WTF?  It is pretty normal not to want your ex treating your house as his own, even if you do have a child together.  I thought the writing when Miranda decides, out of nowhere, that she's in love with him again was awful.  We never got any explanation as to why, out of nowhere, she would suddenly want him back.

[Maherjunkie]

Why any woman would give up Blair Underwood is a mystery to me.

[WendyCR72]

Why any woman would give up Blair Underwood is a mystery to me.

 

Because while Blair Underwood is eye candy, he is boring eye candy? (To me, to make it clear! There's a...blandness that accompanies his prettiness. It's weird!)

[Maherjunkie]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  If it was good enough for Janet Jackson, he's more than good enough for us mortal women.

[WendyCR72]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  If it was good enough for Janet Jackson, he's more than good enough for us mortal women.

 

Not wrong! Just different strokes.  :-)  You're welcome to him. He leaves me cold beyond looks.

[sunrisepink]

Not wrong! Just different strokes.  :-)  You're welcome to him. He leaves me cold beyond looks.

 

The way he treated Miranda in the stairwell after their breakup left ME cold. I guess it was supposed to be funny but it came across to me as almost..rapey or something. I know that if a guy did that to me I would be pretty freaked out..and looking for a new apartment ASAP.

 

However, up until that moment I thought he was pretty hot.

[WendyCR72]

The way he treated Miranda in the stairwell after their breakup left ME cold

 

Oh, God...absolutely. Never missed Robert once he did a fade.

[27bored]

Eh, I'm torn on Robert. On one hand, I can see how he would be hurt if he fell for Miranda only to have her dump him for her baby's father. I can see why he would feel like a "half-time show" and like Miranda only stayed with him until she was secure enough to tell Steve how she felt. And, I mean, when you break someone's heart, the idea of seeing you and the person you left them for might make them go Mel Gibson tape on your ass, tacky as that may be.

 

On the other hand, Miranda I thought dealt with it as gracefully as she could. It would've been better if she'd told Steve from the beginning how she felt instead of picking a fight, but then we wouldn't have had S6!

[Maherjunkie]

I was speaking strictly physically.  However we don't know if he actually wrecked her stuff.