The Men of Sex and the City

[EarlGreyTea]

I'm doing a re-watch of the later seasons, and I really loved Berger before it all went to hell. I loved Ron Livingston in Band of Brothers, so I was pre-disposed to love him as Berger. He was probably third in terms of who had the best chemistry with SJP to me (first two being Noth and Corbett). Anyway, he was so charming and cute in his interactions with Carrie in a way that Petrovsky never managed to be. I'm surprised it took the writers that long to pair up Carrie with another writer. Intellectually they were a far better match than she and Aidan. I really loved self-deprecating humor.

 

I'm disappointed that his ego ended up not being able to take her success, but it was so achingly realistic it hurt. Think of all the major Hollywood couples who divorced once the woman got an Oscar or surpassed the man in fame. There's a LOT.

Edited September 13, 2015 by EarlGreyTea

[izabella]

I'm surprised it took the writers that long to pair up Carrie with another writer.

 

I think that's because Carrie never really hung out with other writers so didn't really meet many. She wrote a column for a newspaper and we never saw her at the newspaper office, or having a drink with other writers from the paper, not even at say, a charity event sponsored by the paper.  The closest we saw of that was when she worked for Vogue, but Carrie didn't hang out with other writers there, either, just her editor Candace Bergen. 

 

It was like her writing was limited to her laptop - her life was part of her writing but writing was oddly not much a part of her life.

[MyAimIsTrue]

I'm doing a re-watch of the later seasons, and I really loved Berger before it all went to hell.

 

I loved Berger's family almost more than Berger himself.

[Inquisitionist]

I loved Berger's family almost more than Berger himself.

 

Berger had a family?  Are you confusing him with the Justin Theroux character whose parents were Valerie Harper and David McCallum?

[MyAimIsTrue]

I guess I am as I would have sworn those were Berger's parents.  Sorry.

[bubbls]

Berger had a family?  Are you confusing him with the Justin Theroux character whose parents were Valerie Harper and David McCallum?

 

 

Well, duh. I never realized that was him. Each time I see that episode I wonder why he looks so familiar, but I never bothered to Google it. Mystery solved.

[Sun-Bun]

Well, duh. I never realized that was him. Each time I see that episode I wonder why he looks so familiar, but I never bothered to Google it. Mystery solved.

The weirdest thing about Justin Thereoux's appearance on SatC is that he was on there several times, playing two different characters. He showed up on an earlier season playing some edgy showbiz type, then he later showed up as this sensitive writer guy with the loving family.

I always wondered how he ended up getting cast on there several times, much like "The Golden Girls" was infamous for recasting a few male actors in different roles---did he just get along well with the casting director? Did he step in to replace someone last minute? Did they think he looked different enough from his first appearance to pull off another appearance as a different guy?

Things that make you go hmmmmm....

[bubbls]

 

The weirdest thing about Justin Thereoux's appearance on SatC is that he was on there several times, playing two different characters. He showed up on an earlier season playing some edgy showbiz type, then he later showed up as this sensitive writer guy with the loving family.

 

 

I didn't catch him the first time either. I'm usually good with faces too. Maybe he is a chameleon to the average viewer based on my missing his identity as two characters in SatC and boyfriend/husband of Jennifer Anniston.

[glovesbritneybitch]

I don't know if I'm doing this right but I'm a Aidan fan! Don't like big don't know why she kept going back to big and here Aidan is what she wanted with big but she doesn't want to marry him. I think he was great for her and was cute! Big kept disappointing Carrie. I liked Samantha with Smith he was hot!

[Ms Blue Jay]

Berger is FASCINATING.  Carrie and Berger's relationship is FASCINATING.  I don't think it ever had a chance of working, but it was fascinating to watch and I'm glad the writers inserted it into the show.

I think Berger is a lot like Carrie except unsuccessful.  Unsuccessful in the conventional sense - I think I'd be extremely happy if I wrote two books personally, but that is such a far off dream for me.  Berger needed success in the conventional sense - stability and perhaps even fame and fortune.  See how insecure he is when Carrie gets her picture taken on the red carpet at Smith's play.

Berger is needy like Carrie is.  Berger needs so much nurturing and attention like Carrie does.  (I'm not blaming him for this - I TRULY enjoy the character).  Whereas Aidan is very much a conventional fantasy man (like how I picture men in romance novels to be, LOL!!!!) who doesn't really need anything to please him, except maybe a beer and his dog, Berger needs a lot.  Carrie however is the person who must 'twinkle' with a guy like Berger.  She wears attention getting outfits, she makes a huge deal out of the tiniest shit whether good or bad, she's an absolute child in Season 6.  This is perfect for someone like Aleks who is literally older and can dote on someone and be wealthy and uber-romantic but not Berger.  Berger is still very much hurt from his last relationship and needs a woman who can totally dote on him, Aidan- or Aleks-style.

Seriously.  The Berger-Carrie dynamic fascinates the hell out of me.  I think Ron Livingston does such a fantastic job with such a weird, difficult character that we don't normally see in pop culture (Well, not the pop culture I enjoy - I don't watch a lot of pop culture made for adult men, so maybe I just wouldn't know).  Again, I guess I just find Carrie and Berger so fascinating because they had no chance of working, so to see it play out is just very interesting because they try anyway - at least, Carrie tries very hard.  Berger wants something a lot lower maintenance.  I think women like me also enjoy Berger's portrayal because he seems so real.

Aidan made things too easy for Carrie, and I guess she couldn't accept that.  She spent 6 years wanting to win Big over who was always hard-to-get.  Berger and Aleks are somewhere in the middle of both of those extremes.  They were artists who had their own careers and their identities were very much tied up in that.  I guess, now that I think about it, so was Aidan, except he was a lot more easygoing as a person and giving as a partner.  

Edited January 7, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[cpcathy]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Berger would have worked with his own series, ala a male version of SATC. Neurotic male writer with his own foibles.

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 1/7/2018 at 2:18 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Aidan made things too easy for Carrie, and I guess she couldn't accept that. 

You know - there is a point to this - an excellent point.  I was married for 17 years, divorced now, and my ex made life easy for me in many ways.  Without too much detail, he let me have my way a lot.  After a while I was like, really?  I am remarried now and my hubby has a great mix of thinking I am the greatest thing ever and holding me to the line on things.   He is more firm with me (not in a sexist way) and I love him more for it.  Does that make sense?  Or is it odd that I am comparing my life to a show that went off the air in 2004?  LOL!!

[Ms Blue Jay]

Even crazier I was thinking today that this show first aired 20 years ago.

[WendyCR72]

On 1/11/2018 at 7:22 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Even crazier I was thinking today that this show first aired 20 years ago.

Damn, I'm old!

[Gothish520]

@Ms Blue Jay, you give Berger a lot more credit than I do. I thought Carrie was wonderful in that relationship, she even did what she should have done with Aidan and told Big that they could only be friends. Finally! I was on board with Berger up until he pouted over the scrunchie incident. Even though that was resolved in a humorous way, he just continued to show his toolish-ness. Then the post-it breakup...WTF was that nonsense? Was he just looking for one more shtup?

Creep.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Sure, I guess she was "wonderful" but that also meant ignoring so many red flags that Berger was putting up that he 1) wasn't ready for a relationship and 2) it certainly wasn't going to work out with Carrie.  She was trying way way way too hard to make it work with Berger, because they look good together "on paper" - they're both neurotic, self-absorbed writers - so much so that it led to Berger running the hell away!  I don't think Berger's fantastic or anything, but I don't think Carrie is either.  Again I think they are similar.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Melancholy]

In fairness to Carrie, Berger was tricky. She got into a rhythm where they’d surmount obstacles. His girlfriend. Her scaring him off by being emotionally slutty. Their bedroom problems. After that point, they were at the pinnacle of their relationship. Then, he started acting miserable because of his career. I get how Carrie was inclined to think it was a temporary funk because his professional life got worse and it was one of those obstacles they surmounted in the past. But I don’t think she should have slept with him right after he came back from his break. 

Plus, I always think Carrie decided she wanted to settle down with Big in S1 and most of her choices thereafter are her increasing desperation to be married or permanently with/kept by a man. Since Big wasn’t settling down with her, Carrie latched onto Aiden/Berger/Alex with increasing desperation only to have the relationship capsize because she really wasn’t in love with them. Since Berger had his own commitment issues, Carrie had more logical distance from the situation and didn’t make as insane choices as she did with Aiden and Alex. 

[Gothish520]

23 hours ago, Melancholy said:

In fairness to Carrie, Berger was tricky. She got into a rhythm where they’d surmount obstacles. His girlfriend. Her scaring him off by being emotionally slutty. Their bedroom problems. After that point, they were at the pinnacle of their relationship. Then, he started acting miserable because of his career. I get how Carrie was inclined to think it was a temporary funk because his professional life got worse and it was one of those obstacles they surmounted in the past. But I don’t think she should have slept with him right after he came back from his break. 

Plus, I always think Carrie decided she wanted to settle down with Big in S1 and most of her choices thereafter are her increasing desperation to be married or permanently with/kept by a man. Since Big wasn’t settling down with her, Carrie latched onto Aiden/Berger/Alex with increasing desperation only to have the relationship capsize because she really wasn’t in love with them. Since Berger had his own commitment issues, Carrie had more logical distance from the situation and didn’t make as insane choices as she did with Aiden and Alex. 

I agree about Carrie and Berger, except I don't see an issue with them sleeping together at that point, at least from her persepective - he showed up with flowers and said he wanted to make a go of it - as far as she knew, they were back together. Earlier in their relationship, one of the best scenes for me is when they say I love you to each other - that was a really great moment. 

I also don't see Carrie as desperate, except insofar as she was desperate to get Big out of her heart, because she knew (or thought she knew) that it was going nowhere. 

I actually liked the way the whole Aleks/Big situation played out. I don't blame Carrie for going to Paris - it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and something she had always dreamed about. She didn't know that Aleks would be so busy that he would have literally no time for her. And if it wasn't for the conversation with his ex-wife, she probably would've kept on believing that things would get better "after the opening". 

I don't feel like they turned Aleks into a creep - what happened in Paris seemed organic and understandable, from his persepective and hers. It just wasn't what Carrie thought it would be, and that's fine. I do think it was a bit much to have her claim she'd done everything and was bored after a week - a month, maybe. But I can certainly understand why she would feel lonely. 

[Melancholy]

Carrie doesn't hurt anyone but herself by sleeping with Berger after he came back. However, she was particularly injured that she slept with him this last time and he immediately broke up with her. IMO, that was predictable and it was on Carrie for not protecting her heart better. You play with fire- you get burned. Berger walked out on their relationship unilaterally after behaving badly for weeks and Carrie was rightfully very hurt by that. I would say that Berger should have re-earned trust before being let back into Carrie's bed. And Carrie, having already been hurt by Berger, should have taken things slow on this next go-around instead of surrendering everything to him. That's all. It's hardly the worst thing that she's ever done. I have sympathy when people are too trusting and naive- but I think that's squarely where Carrie falls on sleeping with Burger immediately after he came back to her. 

I blame Carrie for going to Paris. I guess again, she doesn't hurt anyone but herself. BUT MAN, it's such a stupid way of living life. It's like, one of the stupidest rom-com choices I've ever been on television. I had loudly been predicting for weeks that the Paris move would be a huge failure as I watched the eps as they aired. I'd be loudly predicting that any friend of mine doing the same thing would be fucking up her life. Alex and Carrie never said that they loved each other in NYC. In fact, as she breaks up with him in Paris, she admits that she's not in love with him. He gave her no promises of commitment. He was closed off and distant and condescending in NYC. It's mind-boggling that a mid-30s woman would quit her job, especially since she has no real savings, and leave her close-knit friends behind to chase a man like that across the Atlantic Ocean. 

And it's infuriating that she considered herself done with Paris after a week. If it was truly a once in a lifetime opportunity to be in Paris, she'd have a longer interest in the city. What's the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? She admitted that she didn't love Alex. She didn't have a passion for Paris beyond a short one-week vacation. Who throws away a steady job and decides to move away from her close friends because she may love a city that she's never been to before? An idiot, that's who. Jeeze, she could have taken a little two week vacation with Alex in Paris to see how their lives mesh before making permanent decisions like quitting her job. I think that’s the obvious course of action for anyone with a lick of sense.

I also don't think she hurt anyone but herself in the actual action. However, her aggressive way of putting down her friends' questions and concerns was mean and hurtful. True love/romance does win out over close friends when deciding where to live but Alex wasn't even true love. He wasn't any kind of love. If I was Carrie's friend, I'd be hurt that she valued the chance to be kept by some guy in a foreign city over our platonic but super-close friendship for many years. Hmm, I'm also not one to be sympathetic to Alex because I think he was jerk and I don't believe he ever told Carrie that he loved her in NY. However, he may well have if he volunteered to support her in Paris and he was probably hurt that Carrie lurching to do that and then, taking back a week later because she doesn't love him. 

By any stretch of realism, Carrie should have come back to NYC alone with her tail between her legs scrambling to get work to replace her column while her friends started off a little cold shoulder “I told you so.”

[DkNNy79]

12 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I blame Carrie for going to Paris. I guess again, she doesn't hurt anyone but herself. BUT MAN, it's such a stupid way of living life. It's like, one of the stupidest rom-com choices I've ever been on television. I had loudly been predicting for weeks that the Paris move would be a huge failure as I watched the eps as they aired. I'd be loudly predicting that any friend of mine doing the same thing would be fucking up her life. Alex and Carrie never said that they loved each other in NYC. In fact, as she breaks up with him in Paris, she admits that she's not in love with him. He gave her no promises of commitment. He was closed off and distant and condescending in NYC. It's mind-boggling that a mid-30s woman would quit her job, especially since she has no real savings, and leave her close-knit friends behind to chase a man like that across the Atlantic Ocean. 

And it's infuriating that she considered herself done with Paris after a week. If it was truly a once in a lifetime opportunity to be in Paris, she'd have a longer interest in the city. What's the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? She admitted that she didn't love Alex. She didn't have a passion for Paris beyond a short one-week vacation. Who throws away a steady job and decides to move away from her close friends because she may love a city that she's never been to before? An idiot, that's who. Jeeze, she could have taken a little two week vacation with Alex in Paris to see how their lives mesh before making permanent decisions like quitting her job. I think that’s the obvious course of action for anyone with a lick of sense.

I also don't think she hurt anyone but herself in the actual action. However, her aggressive way of putting down her friends' questions and concerns was mean and hurtful. True love/romance does win out over close friends when deciding where to live but Alex wasn't even true love. He wasn't any kind of love. If I was Carrie's friend, I'd be hurt that she valued the chance to be kept by some guy in a foreign city over our platonic but super-close friendship for many years. Hmm, I'm also not one to be sympathetic to Alex because I think he was jerk and I don't believe he ever told Carrie that he loved her in NY. However, he may well have if he volunteered to support her in Paris and he was probably hurt that Carrie lurching to do that and then, taking back a week later because she doesn't love him. 

By any stretch of realism, Carrie should have come back to NYC alone with her tail between her legs scrambling to get work to replace her column while her friends started off a little cold shoulder “I told you so.”

Agree 100%.  She was too clingy that's why she was "done" with Paris after a week.  I don't agree with her decision moving over there to be basically "kept" by a man.  But once there Europe was her playground.  She could've traveled on her own, but she probably didn't want to put the effort into it.

[EarlGreyTea]

5 hours ago, DkNNy79 said:

Agree 100%.  She was too clingy that's why she was "done" with Paris after a week.  I don't agree with her decision moving over there to be basically "kept" by a man.  But once there Europe was her playground.  She could've traveled on her own, but she probably didn't want to put the effort into it.

I think the whole thing would have been more understandable had they had Carrie in Paris for more like 6 months to a year. It all makes a lot more sense if you pretend she was there that long. THEN I could understand her frustration at Aleks being too busy, and feeling like she'd seen the entire city already. But two weeks or whatever it was, was utterly ridiculous and made Carrie look like an impulsive idiot. Paris is brimming with history and culture and things to do. It all made Carrie look like a rube.

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, EarlGreyTea said:

I think the whole thing would have been more understandable had they had Carrie in Paris for more like 6 months to a year. It all makes a lot more sense if you pretend she was there that long. THEN I could understand her frustration at Aleks being too busy, and feeling like she'd seen the entire city already. But two weeks or whatever it was, was utterly ridiculous and made Carrie look like an impulsive idiot. Paris is brimming with history and culture and things to do. It all made Carrie look like a rube.

It was rushed and would've been more believable at even a couple of months. But I get what the show was trying to accomplish. 

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Melancholy said:

And it's infuriating that she considered herself done with Paris after a week. If it was truly a once in a lifetime opportunity to be in Paris, she'd have a longer interest in the city. What's the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? She admitted that she didn't love Alex. She didn't have a passion for Paris beyond a short one-week vacation. Who throws away a steady job and decides to move away from her close friends because she may love a city that she's never been to before? An idiot, that's who. Jeeze, she could have taken a little two week vacation with Alex in Paris to see how their lives mesh before making permanent decisions like quitting her job. I think that’s the obvious course of action for anyone with a lick of sense.

This drove me crazy. After a week she was done with Paris. I'd be surprised if I had seen everything I wanted to seen just in Paris in six months. That's not counting other French cities and everywhere else in France. From then on to rest of Europe! There's so many places to see and things to do.  

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Carrie doesn't hurt anyone but herself by sleeping with Berger after he came back. However, she was particularly injured that she slept with him this last time and he immediately broke up with her. IMO, that was predictable and it was on Carrie for not protecting her heart better. You play with fire- you get burned. Berger walked out on their relationship unilaterally after behaving badly for weeks and Carrie was rightfully very hurt by that. I would say that Berger should have re-earned trust before being let back into Carrie's bed. And Carrie, having already been hurt by Berger, should have taken things slow on this next go-around instead of surrendering everything to him. That's all. It's hardly the worst thing that she's ever done. I have sympathy when people are too trusting and naive- but I think that's squarely where Carrie falls on sleeping with Burger immediately after he came back to her. 

I blame Carrie for going to Paris. I guess again, she doesn't hurt anyone but herself. BUT MAN, it's such a stupid way of living life. It's like, one of the stupidest rom-com choices I've ever been on television. I had loudly been predicting for weeks that the Paris move would be a huge failure as I watched the eps as they aired. I'd be loudly predicting that any friend of mine doing the same thing would be fucking up her life. Alex and Carrie never said that they loved each other in NYC. In fact, as she breaks up with him in Paris, she admits that she's not in love with him. He gave her no promises of commitment. He was closed off and distant and condescending in NYC. It's mind-boggling that a mid-30s woman would quit her job, especially since she has no real savings, and leave her close-knit friends behind to chase a man like that across the Atlantic Ocean. 

And it's infuriating that she considered herself done with Paris after a week. If it was truly a once in a lifetime opportunity to be in Paris, she'd have a longer interest in the city. What's the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? She admitted that she didn't love Alex. She didn't have a passion for Paris beyond a short one-week vacation. Who throws away a steady job and decides to move away from her close friends because she may love a city that she's never been to before? An idiot, that's who. Jeeze, she could have taken a little two week vacation with Alex in Paris to see how their lives mesh before making permanent decisions like quitting her job. I think that’s the obvious course of action for anyone with a lick of sense.

I also don't think she hurt anyone but herself in the actual action. However, her aggressive way of putting down her friends' questions and concerns was mean and hurtful. True love/romance does win out over close friends when deciding where to live but Alex wasn't even true love. He wasn't any kind of love. If I was Carrie's friend, I'd be hurt that she valued the chance to be kept by some guy in a foreign city over our platonic but super-close friendship for many years. Hmm, I'm also not one to be sympathetic to Alex because I think he was jerk and I don't believe he ever told Carrie that he loved her in NY. However, he may well have if he volunteered to support her in Paris and he was probably hurt that Carrie lurching to do that and then, taking back a week later because she doesn't love him. 

By any stretch of realism, Carrie should have come back to NYC alone with her tail between her legs scrambling to get work to replace her column while her friends started off a little cold shoulder “I told you so.”

All this yes. The move was stupid. You've said it better then I ever could. She didn't love Alek and he never said he loved her. He warned her that he would by busy working. She quit her job, moved away from her friends and wanted her friends to happy for her and not point out that what she was doing stupid. Once she gets there. Well what do you know Alek was busy. She pouts and is probably "done" with Paris because the entire city isn't catering to her. Alek isn't fawning all over her. She hasn't met three new best friends who will drop everything to do whatever she wants and listen to her non-stop. What did she think was going to happen? No one knows her there but Alek and he told her he would be busy. And Carrie won't even try. She's in Paris explore the museums, nightlife, look for a new job, meet people, make new friends, there's a lot she could be doing but she won't. 

[Melancholy]

This is part of why I find Carrie so without values or depth of character. She was ready to chuck her friends and her ability to support herself and her creative outlet through her writing over nothing but the sense of glamour and being chosen to be kept by a rich man. She didn’t leave NY for love. She didn’t leave NY for any love of Paris or living internationally, because she didn’t know enough about either to love it. 

Splat very effectively paints Carrie's choice to move with Alexander as an act of petty desperation instead of an informed, wise choice to go for a true once in a lifetime opportunity. It's one of my favorite episodes with the darker read. It's like a deeply cynical Christmas Carol. Carrie sees Lanie, the ghost of Christmas past, a party girl from Carrie's life in the 1980s/early '90s who we never got to see until the near end of the series because she's an embarrassing figure of the past. The old party girl who never settled down and now, seems sad and ruined. That's a cautionary tale for Carrie that she can't be a rootless single party girl. Enid is the ghost of Christmas future. Even with all of Enid's success and money and looks (all greater than Carrie's), Enid is on the pathetic side of dating and matters of love because she didn't get a man. She's left bitter and she spouts the message that mid-thirty-something Carrie is at the age where she can get a late 50 something successful, good-looking guy because her relative youth. However, Enid crossed the age where she can't get a successful, good-looking guy who's her own age. Her friends are the Ghost of Christmas Present. As I hear it, Carrie can't keep the jealous, resentful notes out of her voice when she said Miranda, Charlotte, and even Samantha settled down and moved on but Carrie hasn't. These are Carrie's peers in the same narrative struggle as her, all sharing space in the same Sex and the City Column, but they no longer share Carrie's present of struggling to find true love and their final point in life as they once did. Then, Carrie gets despicable and accuses Miranda of wanting Carrie to be single for Miranda. Meanwhile, the snow and winter tropes are all over the place. 

The facts of the story are all so effective and encompassing that it drowns out whatever Carrie is mouthing about how she's wisely taking a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and her friends cannot disapprove or even ask questions and remain her friends. She was running scared so she ran to France. That’s it.

[Gothish520]

10 hours ago, Melancholy said:

This is part of why I find Carrie so without values or depth of character. She was ready to chuck her friends and her ability to support herself and her creative outlet through her writing over nothing but the sense of glamour and being chosen to be kept by a rich man. She didn’t leave NY for love. She didn’t leave NY for any love of Paris or living internationally, because she didn’t know enough about either to love it. 

Splat very effectively paints Carrie's choice to move with Alexander as an act of petty desperation instead of an informed, wise choice to go for a true once in a lifetime opportunity. It's one of my favorite episodes with the darker read. It's like a deeply cynical Christmas Carol. Carrie sees Lanie, the ghost of Christmas past, a party girl from Carrie's life in the 1980s/early '90s who we never got to see until the near end of the series because she's an embarrassing figure of the past. The old party girl who never settled down and now, seems sad and ruined. That's a cautionary tale for Carrie that she can't be a rootless single party girl. Enid is the ghost of Christmas future. Even with all of Enid's success and money and looks (all greater than Carrie's), Enid is on the pathetic side of dating and matters of love because she didn't get a man. She's left bitter and she spouts the message that mid-thirty-something Carrie is at the age where she can get a late 50 something successful, good-looking guy because her relative youth. However, Enid crossed the age where she can't get a successful, good-looking guy who's her own age. Her friends are the Ghost of Christmas Present. As I hear it, Carrie can't keep the jealous, resentful notes out of her voice when she said Miranda, Charlotte, and even Samantha settled down and moved on but Carrie hasn't. These are Carrie's peers in the same narrative struggle as her, all sharing space in the same Sex and the City Column, but they no longer share Carrie's present of struggling to find true love and their final point in life as they once did. Then, Carrie gets despicable and accuses Miranda of wanting Carrie to be single for Miranda. Meanwhile, the snow and winter tropes are all over the place. 

The facts of the story are all so effective and encompassing that it drowns out whatever Carrie is mouthing about how she's wisely taking a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and her friends cannot disapprove or even ask questions and remain her friends. She was running scared so she ran to France. That’s it.

I don't find that a terrible narrative, I find it fascinating. It was clearly supposed to be a bad choice on Carrie's part. Everyone could see that it was foolish a mile away. But I still get it from her perspective as well. And it's understandable that Carrie would think that Miranda was being selfish - because she was. Just as she was being selfish when she told Big to "go get our girl". And I don't blame Miranda, lol. At least Carrie would be back in New York!

I don't see the show as lauding every move Carrie makes. I see it as presenting her as a flawed human being who makes mistakes. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Gothish520

[Melancholy]

27 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I don't find that a terrible narrative, I find it fascinating. It was clearly supposed to be a bad choice on Carrie's part. Everyone could see that it was foolish a mile away. But I still get it from her persepective as well. And it's understandable that Carrie would think that Miranda was being selfish - because she was. Just as she was being selfish when she told Big to "go get our girl". And I don't blame Miranda, lol. At least Carrie would be back in New York!

I don't see the show as lauding every move Carrie makes. I see it as presenting her as a flawed human being who makes mistakes. 

No, I don’t think the Splat through An American Girl in Paris Part Deux was bad at all- up until Big arrived. It was all an interesting arc. I said Splat was among my favorite eps. I do think the story lost its edge and realism when Big showed up to bail Carrie out of her choices. I think the show failed at building romance to have Carrie scream that she never wants to see Big again and how he always tries to shit on her happiness in NYC but have them end up together in a Paris fairy tale ending. Those are my issues with the writing as opposed to my critiques of Carrie the character.

 I don’t think Miranda was being selfish. Sure, she’d prefer to have her best friend nearby. Who wouldn’t? But Miranda was part of group cheering Carrie on in her quest for love- loving Berger and letting Carrie know that, supporting Carrie in quitting smoking for Aiden, heck, buying a *ring* with Aiden. Even though “I was buying a wedding ring while pregnant with a man who wasn’t the baby’s father. Not exactly my dream scenario!” Heck, supporting Big in his mission to get back Carrie after he movingly atoned for past mistakes and said he wanted to commit this time.  It was vile of Carrie to accuse Miranda of wanting Carrie to be single for Miranda just because Miranda didn’t like Alex and as you said, disagreed with Carrie making a stupid life choice. 

[Gothish520]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

No, I don’t think the Splat through An American Girl in Paris Part Deux was bad at all- up until Big arrived. It was all an interesting arc. I said Splat was among my favorite eps. I do think the story lost its edge and realism when Big showed up to bail Carrie out of her choices. I think the show failed at building romance to have Carrie scream that she never wants to see Big again and how he always tries to shit on her happiness in NYC but have them end up together in a Paris fairy tale ending. Those are my issues with the writing as opposed to my critiques of Carrie the character.

 I don’t think Miranda was being selfish. Sure, she’d prefer to have her best friend nearby. Who wouldn’t? But Miranda was part of group cheering Carrie on in her quest for love- loving Berger and letting Carrie know that, supporting Carrie in quitting smoking for Aiden, heck, buying a *ring* with Aiden. Even though “I was buying a wedding ring while pregnant with a man who wasn’t the baby’s father. Not exactly my dream scenario!” Heck, supporting Big in his mission to get back Carrie after he movingly atoned for past mistakes and said he wanted to commit this time.  It was vile of Carrie to accuse Miranda of wanting Carrie to be single for Miranda just because Miranda didn’t like Alex and as you said, disagreed with Carrie making a stupid life choice. 

I loved Big showing up in Paris because the show did lay some groundwork there...he had been trying to get in touch with Carrie for awhile before she left, and never got a chance to talk to her until the big scene when she told him off. Even then, she didn't really give him a chance to get it all out. And in Paris, Carrie had already ended her relationship with Aleks before Big showed up, so it's not like she ditched the Russian just to run off with him. 

I do think Carrie got a bit too angry with Miranda. She could have been nicer in explaining to Miranda why she wanted to go. I think, as with Big, she had just made up her mind and was fed up with people trying to convince her she was making a mistake. Most likely because somewhere in the back of her mind, she knew it WAS a mistake, or at least a big risk.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 4/11/2018 at 1:42 PM, Gothish520 said:

I actually liked the way the whole Aleks/Big situation played out. I don't blame Carrie for going to Paris - it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and something she had always dreamed about. She didn't know that Aleks would be so busy that he would have literally no time for her. And if it wasn't for the conversation with his ex-wife, she probably would've kept on believing that things would get better "after the opening". 

I don't feel like they turned Aleks into a creep - what happened in Paris seemed organic and understandable, from his persepective and hers. It just wasn't what Carrie thought it would be, and that's fine. I do think it was a bit much to have her claim she'd done everything and was bored after a week - a month, maybe. But I can certainly understand why she would feel lonely. 

I totally agree with you.  I 100% don't blame Carrie for going to Paris.  The second part is what I do blame Carrie for, claiming Paris was boring after a week.  The truth was not that she was bored with Paris after a week.  The truth was that she needed to be the centre of Aleks's attention at all times, and it's okay for her to admit that if that's what she needs.  But that wasn't she was going to get and I don't blame Aleks, either!  Aleks needs an independent woman who has her own shit going on who can deal with  a moody artist who will sometimes be totally romantic and other times be totally into his work.  Carrie is too much of a brat for that. 

[Melancholy]

I don’t think Alex was looking for an independent woman with her own life. I think he was looking for a beautiful charming younger pet who could just happily exist wherever Alex needed. For starters, he didn’t even want to consider a long distance relationship or to try long distance while Carrie set up a career in Paris. He wanted Carrie to be the kind of woman to quit her job, leave her friends, leave her city to be with Alex with no commitment whatsoever. Even when they never declared love for each other. And Alex was opening an exhibit in Paris but he didn’t have to live there. He just was “done with New York, time for Paris.” He did not value Carrie’s whole life more than his wants. 

His accomplished sophisticated first wife indicated that Alex didn’t value his women’s work. He never said what his first wife did. His ex wife expressed surprise that Alex could be described as supportive of Carrie’s column. (But I wouldn’t call him supportive since he made Carrie pick between the column and the relationship.)

And then when Carrie was just starting to have a life in Paris and make friends, he guilted her into going to the museum and then, immediately dropped her once they got there. 

Wanting a woman to happily cater to every impulse whether it’s romance or neglect isn’t seeking an independent woman. I would argue that it’s impossible to remain an independent woman with her own just-as-important life if she’ll leave everything in that life to chase a man across an ocean (not even for love, just to be kept by him) and then, only pursue her interests on his schedule while he never has to break with his schedule to accommodate the woman 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Melancholy

[Gothish520]

On 4/16/2018 at 3:17 PM, Melancholy said:

I don’t think Alex was looking for an independent woman with her own life. I think he was looking for a beautiful charming younger pet who could just happily exist wherever Alex needed. For starters, he didn’t even want to consider a long distance relationship or to try long distance while Carrie set up a career in Paris. He wanted Carrie to be the kind of woman to quit her job, leave her friends, leave her city to be with Alex with no commitment whatsoever. Even when they never declared love for each other. And Alex was opening an exhibit in Paris but he didn’t have to live there. He just was “done with New York, time for Paris.” He did not value Carrie’s whole life more than his wants. 

His accomplished sophisticated first wife indicated that Alex didn’t value his women’s work. He never said what his first wife did. His ex wife expressed surprise that Alex could be described as supportive of Carrie’s column. (But I wouldn’t call him supportive since he made Carrie pick between the column and the relationship.)

And then when Carrie was just starting to have a life in Paris and make friends, he guilted her into going to the museum and then, immediately dropped her once they got there. 

Wanting a woman to happily cater to every impulse whether it’s romance or neglect isn’t seeking an independent woman. I would argue that it’s impossible to remain an independent woman with her own just-as-important life if she’ll leave everything in that life to chase a man across an ocean (not even for love, just to be kept by him) and then, only pursue her interests on his schedule while he never has to break with his schedule to accommodate the woman 

I agree, Aleks wanted an "independent" woman insofar as he wanted someone who could keep herself busy and entertained when he wasn't around...but, she had to be there for him when he wanted. Basically someone who lived her life around his schedule and whims.

[voiceover]

Justin Theroux was Jared, the newly-successful writer in "The Monogamists" (Carrie calls Big from Jared's party to make him (Big) jealous), and Vaughn, the newly-successful writer whose family was cooler than he was in "Shortcomings".

And Season 1's Lanie was the married/preggers version ("Baby Shower") of Final Season Lexi (who fell to her death in "Splat!").  Any series that rolls on that long, bound to revisit the well.

I actually dropped in to complain about Aidan.  Two of my least-favorite, most-hated Carrie moments were directly connected to him: that fit she threw over the World's Most Non-homemade Piecrust, and the allergic reaction to the World's Worst Wedding Dress.  

Not to say that no other series bf brought out the worst in her, but those two reax, in particular, drive me nuts every time I watch.

[Inquisitionist]

6 hours ago, voiceover said:

I actually dropped in to complain about Aidan.  Two of my least-favorite, most-hated Carrie moments were directly connected to him: that fit she threw over the World's Most Non-homemade Piecrust, and the allergic reaction to the World's Worst Wedding Dress.  

Not to say that no other series bf brought out the worst in her, but those two reax, in particular, drive me nuts every time I watch.

Are you blaming Aidan for Carrie's OTT reactions?  Seems to me those were in keeping with her increasingly drama-queen approach to many things as the series progressed.  But why Aidan didn't turn tail and run after her "you have to forgive me" shpiel, I'll never know...

[voiceover]

4 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Are you blaming Aidan for Carrie's OTT reactions?  

Of course.

[ByTor]

On 5/9/2018 at 10:55 AM, Inquisitionist said:

But why Aidan didn't turn tail and run after her "you have to forgive me" shpiel, I'll never know...

I would have loved if Aiden replied with "I can choose to forgive you (I choose my choice LOL), but I don't have to" & then walked away.

[andromeda331]

18 hours ago, ByTor said:

I would have loved if Aiden replied with "I can choose to forgive you (I choose my choice LOL), but I don't have to" & then walked away.

That would have been awesome. 

[Maherjunkie]

Her bitching at him for talking to the barkeep pisses me off too.  "Then we can both be bad.." No you can, you insecure, whiny bitch.

[Gothish520]

On 5/9/2018 at 10:55 AM, Inquisitionist said:

Are you blaming Aidan for Carrie's OTT reactions?  Seems to me those were in keeping with her increasingly drama-queen approach to many things as the series progressed.  But why Aidan didn't turn tail and run after her "you have to forgive me" shpiel, I'll never know...

See, I completely understood where Carrie was coming from in the "You HAVE to forgive me" scene. She and Aiden were back together, but he was being passive-aggressive in his behavior because he was still hurt by what she did to him. Her point, as I took it, was that if they were going to stay together, he had to forgive her so they could move on and make it work. I was right there with her until he told her that Big had to go and she refused. To me, that was straight up nonsense. But, he did agree to it.

[Mu Shu]

On 4/11/2018 at 8:17 PM, EarlGreyTea said:

I think the whole thing would have been more understandable had they had Carrie in Paris for more like 6 months to a year. It all makes a lot more sense if you pretend she was there that long. THEN I could understand her frustration at Aleks being too busy, and feeling like she'd seen the entire city already. But two weeks or whatever it was, was utterly ridiculous and made Carrie look like an impulsive idiot. Paris is brimming with history and culture and things to do. It all made Carrie look like a rube.

I think Carrie was always a rube.  She was in the city, had glamourous clothes and a cool job, but remained a rube throughout.  Add to that a shallow rube.  She never had any interest in arts and culture, just in Carrie, and being perceived as cool and desirable.  

She would have been a rube in Des Moines or Buffalo. 

[Melancholy]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that Carrie was telling Berger a truth disguised in facetiousness at least when it came to her side of the relationship- i.e. she didn't think she hurt Aiden badly enough the first time so she had another go-around to hurt him some more. Because MAN, she's not a good girlfriend in any of the eps on the second go-around. There's the "You HAVE to forgive me!" episode. Then, there's the episode where she's a bitch to him for helping her with her broken laptop. Then, the episode where she acts like a big baby over having to spend time at his country house followed by the ep where she invites Big to the country house. I guess Carrie's not as horrible to Aiden in Coulda Woulda Shoulda because she's busy betraying and being completely unhelpful to a Miranda in crisis. However, there's still the scene where she's yelling at Aiden because she put Aiden in a position where he has to lie to his friend Steve because Carrie wouldn't keep the secret of her own friend Miranda. 

Then, there's the episode where she boils down whether Aiden is marriageable to whether he picked out a sufficiently fancy engagement ring and then, proceeds to falsely accept Aiden's proposal even though she didn't want to marry him. Then, there's the episode where she's a bitch to Aiden for moving his stuff in and re-doing her apartment even though he was fucking bailing her out of her own financial stupidity in being a 35-year old woman with insufficient savings or flexibility to deal with any new housing situation. Then, she's looking for any excuse to not spend a night even relaxing with him and negatively comparing her fiance to some gay dude that she just met five minutes ago. I guess she's the best to him in Change of a Dress even though that was their break-up episode because she's actually honest and real for the first time ever in their relationship- but only because Aiden forces the issue. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Melancholy

[Gothish520]

9 hours ago, Melancholy said:

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that Carrie was telling Berger a truth disguised in facetiousness at least when it came to her side of the relationship- i.e. she didn't think she hurt Aiden badly enough the first time so she had another go-around to hurt him some more. Because MAN, she's not a good girlfriend in any of the eps on the second go-around. There's the "You HAVE to forgive me!" episode. Then, there's the episode where she's a bitch to him for helping her with her broken laptop. Then, the episode where she acts like a big baby over having to spend time at his country house followed by the ep where she invites Big to the country house. I guess Carrie's not as horrible to Aiden in Belles of the Balls because she's busy betraying and being completely unhelpful to a Miranda in crisis. However, there's still the scene where she's yelling at Aiden because she put Aiden in a position where he has to lie to his friend Steve because Carrie wouldn't keep the secret of her own friend Miranda. 

Then, there's the episode where she boils down whether Aiden is marriageable to whether he picked out a sufficiently fancy engagement ring and then, proceeds to falsely accept Aiden's proposal even though she didn't want to marry him. Then, there's the episode where she's a bitch to Aiden for moving his stuff in and re-doing her apartment even though he was fucking bailing her out of her own financial stupidity in being a 35-year old woman with insufficient savings or flexibility to deal with any new housing situation. Then, she's looking for any excuse to not spend a night even relaxing with him and negatively comparing her fiance to some gay dude that she just met five minutes ago. I guess she's the best to him in Change of a Dress even though that was their break-up episode because she's actually honest and real for the first time ever in their relationship- but only because Aiden forces the issue. 

 I have to admit, I really didn't get the point of Carrie and Aiden getting back together. I don't recall her really making a solid case for why she had to get back with him.

Still a Carrie fan for the most part, but I have to admit she definitely went off on flights of fancy. 

[Banshee]

On 6/13/2014 at 12:50 PM, izabella said:

I liked Harry a lot, but I was never with him on the Jewish thing.  Ok, so he made a promise to his dying mother to marry a Jew.  So, basically, he got with Charlotte just to bang her and eventually drop her because she wasn't Jewish.  He never had any intention of having a serious relationship with her.  And that's fine as long as Charlotte was on the same page, which she absolutely was in the beginning.  But when that did change for her, he was all "*shrug*, you're not a Jew, never gonna happen, end of story."

Yes, that was horrible; suddenly the great guy was a prick.  Was there a writers' strike or something during that season. 

[Melancholy]

Quote

I liked Harry a lot, but I was never with him on the Jewish thing.  Ok, so he made a promise to his dying mother to marry a Jew.  So, basically, he got with Charlotte just to bang her and eventually drop her because she wasn't Jewish.  He never had any intention of having a serious relationship with her.  And that's fine as long as Charlotte was on the same page, which she absolutely was in the beginning.  But when that did change for her, he was all "*shrug*, you're not a Jew, never gonna happen, end of story."

Quote

Yes, that was horrible; suddenly the great guy was a prick.  Was there a writers' strike or something during that season. 

These posts are a mischaracterization of Harry. I don't see how one could conclude that Harry just got with Charlotte to bang her and drop her when he was the one who kept trying to have meaningful, romantic pillow talk, take her on dates, publicly double-date at the Hamptons wedding, get his back waxed to do that. Even when Charlotte just wanted only sex. Actually when Charlotte just wanted to bang Harry and drop him. There's a Pacific Ocean of commitment levels between "bang her and leave the woman" and "won't marry the woman." Actually, Harry and Charlotte both had their cultural-tradition-influenced ultimatums. Charlotte couldn't get serious about a man unless marriage was on the table. That's hardly universal. Plenty women could embark on romance without marriage in the offing. Meanwhile, Harry couldn't marry a non-Jew- another hardly universal, idiosyncratic requirement. 

As a Jewish woman, I completely understand Harry's position. I don't take it myself- but that's partly because I'm a woman and I can rest assured that my children will be considered Jewish even if their father isn't because Judaism is passed on matrilineally.

2 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

 I have to admit, I really didn't get the point of Carrie and Aiden getting back together. I don't recall her really making a solid case for why she had to get back with him.

Still a Carrie fan for the most part, but I have to admit she definitely went off on flights of fancy. 

Carrie didn't say much beyond how Aiden looked great with his new haircut and bod. I think Carrie knew academically that Aiden was a catch and would be great long-term partner. She felt foolish that she gave that up. However, she didn't think deeply about their relationship. Because, I think Carrie theoretically liked Aiden but she found him annoying and boring in actual practice. It's interesting to consider how Carrie evaluates her life since she lives it out-loud in the Sex and the City column. Carrie writes a column where she plays the romantic heroine, looking for her happy ending. I think that pressures her in ways that aren't discussed in the 4th wall breaking ways. Hence the "flights of fancy." How does a romantic heroine handle the miserable narrative twist that she cheated on a gem of a guy that her female readership would love and she wound up dumped and alone? I see the pressure to subconsciously reach for a narrative with Aiden that doesn't end on him dumping her for cheating on him. Subconsciously reaching for a narrative of a long-term relationship with the right guy because it's been like, years and years of this column and she's nowhere near her conclusion and it's getting embarrassing. More can be explained about Carrie with the column. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Melancholy

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

 I have to admit, I really didn't get the point of Carrie and Aiden getting back together. I don't recall her really making a solid case for why she had to get back with him.

Still a Carrie fan for the most part, but I have to admit she definitely went off on flights of fancy. 

 I really don't either. She really didn't seem like she gave him any thought until she ran into him again. She chased him around to get him back. But why? Once their back together she never acts like that's what she wants. Instead she treats him like crap, lies, acts annoyed by him and tries to get him to spend time with Big. So what was the point?  Did she just want a man around and he happened to be there? 

[Sun-Bun]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

So what was the point?  Did she just want a man around and he happened to be there? 

Yes and no.

I think Carrie is a perfect example of of one of those self-described “hopeless romantics” who may indeed genuinely appreciate the *idea* of being in love, but doesn’t yet understand the work, compromise and commitment that a truly functional and healthy romantic relationship requires. Even by then in her early 30’s, she still had a lot to learn and just wasn’t emotionally mature enough yet to really settle down and be the type of wife that Aiden wanted—-she seemed to base their whole relationship on their raw chemistry, romance and overall attraction, while he needed someone far more chill like him, with a more settled lifestyle and simpler tastes.

At the end of the day, this was a typical case of opposites attracting: while they were both attracted to each other and had a great chemistry, their general views on life were too opposing and they wanted way too many different things for it to actually work. 

 

That seemed to be a general pattern with all the men she dated long term on the show—-she was way too into chemistry/romance alone, while conveniently ignoring long term compatibility. I feel like we saw this fact eventually dawn on her when she realized what a horrible mistake she’d made by hastily moving to Paris for Alex.

She made that speech(“I’m looking for love. Real love. Ridiculous, inconvenient, consuming, can’t-live-without-each-other love.”) and it was probably the most self-aware moment I’d seen from her throughout the series’ run. Of course then in one of the fairy tale/unreal moments throughout the series’ run, Big just happens to have realized he FINALLY feels the same way about Carrie and runs off to Paris to “go get our girl”, but whatever...that’s TV for you.

Carrie would likely still be single and quite bitter if this were indeed real life. Or divorced after making some nice guy’s life Hell. 

[Gothish520]

@Melancholy, I like your take on Carrie's motivations re: being the romantic heroine in her own column. Her job is to constantly analyze and critique the ups, downs, ins and outs of relationships and sex; I can definitely see how that might affect one's outlook and opinions, and cause one to question everything, even their own happiness. 

And that sort of ties in with what you said @Sun-Bun, about Carrie being a hopeless romantic; she wants to be swept off her feet by the Prince on a white horse. But when the fairy tale ends and real life begins, suddenly she starts doubting and questioning and gets bored and frustrated.

I think I mentioned this elsewhere, but one of my favorite moments of the series is when Berger and Carrie say I love you. Carrie sounded so sincere and enthusiastic and happy, as did Berger. It's too bad he turned out to be a jerk, because they were really suited for each other. Who knows, maybe Carrie would've found a way to screw them up eventually, but I can't help thinking that somewhere down the road, Berger kicked himself for the way he treated Carrie.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Gothish520
spelling

[andromeda331]

@Melancholy, @Sun-Bun, and Gothosh520

You all make a lot of sense. Carrie never does stop and think about compatibility or how all three of her long term relationships are going to work out. She focuses on the romance, and the moments. Then gets annoyed when either reality hits or the person she's dating isn't doing what he should romantically. In her dream or idea of how its suppose to go. She somehow expected to be swept off her feet by Big, he couldn't wait to tell her he loved her and proposed to her. When that didn't happen she'd get mad and flip out.  Its a little odd to find a woman in her 30s to still have those ideas after dating as much as Carrie has but not impossible. Why doesn't she stop to think of the long term? How are these relationships going to last? She doesn't seem compatible with any of the three guys she dated long term. She wants the fantasy of Big being married to him, having all that money and going to the fanciest events and restaurants. But doesn't ever stop to think about the real Big.  Or the real Aiden who is laid back, wants to marry and settle down. Or Alek who is a workaholic and needy. No Carrie was more interested in dating her fantasy Russian until she ended up in Paris with the real Alek. She has zero understanding that relationships are work and from both parties. Not just the guy doing whatever she wants him to do. 

[Banshee]

On 5/28/2018 at 10:50 PM, Melancholy said:

These posts are a mischaracterization of Harry. I don't see how one could conclude that Harry just got with Charlotte to bang her and drop her when he was the one who kept trying to have meaningful, romantic pillow talk, take her on dates, publicly double-date at the Hamptons wedding, get his back waxed to do that. Even when Charlotte just wanted only sex. Actually when Charlotte just wanted to bang Harry and drop him. There's a Pacific Ocean of commitment levels between "bang her and leave the woman" and "won't marry the woman." Actually, Harry and Charlotte both had their cultural-tradition-influenced ultimatums. Charlotte couldn't get serious about a man unless marriage was on the table. That's hardly universal. Plenty women could embark on romance without marriage in the offing. Meanwhile, Harry couldn't marry a non-Jew- another hardly universal, idiosyncratic requirement. 

As a Jewish woman, I completely understand Harry's position. I don't take it myself- but that's partly because I'm a woman and I can rest assured that my children will be considered Jewish even if their father isn't because Judaism is passed on matrilineally.

 

Those posts were an interpretation of Harry's behavior, as was yours. No need to take it personally.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Banshee
Edit

[Mu Shu]

Eh, Aidan, Harry, Smith, and Steve are all long suffering nice guys so Carrie and Miranda can be written as demanding shrews.  Charlotte was nasty to Harry for awhile, and Sam used Smith as a fuckboy.

The writers really didn’t like women.

[Gothish520]

23 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

Eh, Aidan, Harry, Smith, and Steve are all long suffering nice guys so Carrie and Miranda can be written as demanding shrews.  Charlotte was nasty to Harry for awhile, and Sam used Smith as a fuckboy.

The writers really didn’t like women.

Things were not that simple, at least not in the case of Harry and Smith. Aiden and Carrie were a mess but Aiden came back for more so I'm not going to feel too sorry for him. Miranda was just bitchy most of the time...I think she would've treated any guy like that though, so at least she and Steve loved each other. 

Charlotte and Harry had that one falling-out, but once they got back together they were great, and she loved him and treated him well. Samantha hauled her cookies to the opposite side of the country to be with Smith. She also helped his career immensely. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Gothish520