S04.E08: The Mountain And The Viper 2014.06.01

[Haleth]

I'm responding here since Tyrion and Shae are off topic.

[mad_typist]

How many couples do we have on the show that seem to genuinely love each other?  Ned and Cat-kaput.  Dany and Drogo-kaput.  Now Oberyn and Ellaria-kaput.  I do like to have some romance!

 

Arya-Needle, and their sometimes third member Ultraviolence.

[Avaleigh]

I'm really feeling divided about Shae'smurder.

On the one hand my first instinct is that not having him kill her seems like a weak ass move in terms of the showrunners being fearful that Tyrion murdering Shae would cause the audience to feel as though they've just lost the so-called "moral center" of the show. (In all honesty I don't need for a show to have a moral center or a hero or anything like that anyway. I didn't need one on The Sopranos or Mad Men, this isn't any different for me. ) I hate the idea of catering to an audience because they think things are getting too dark and unpleasant for one of their favorite characters.

I also really dislike the idea of Tyrion's search being changed to being about Shae instead of Tysha. I was unhappy with the turn Tyrion took in ADWD and I can definitely do without having him rape random prostitutes, but I don't know that I think it's necessarily a bad idea for him to be haunted for life over the terrible wrong he did in killing Shae. All of that being said, it is incredibly disturbing to see how many people are calling for and rooting for Shae's death based on her statements at the trial. I guess there's this odd expectation that she ought to have been willing to die for him? I don't really understand it and that makes me feel resistant to seeing her character get killed.

Another problem for me is that I just honestly find the character to be irritating in terms of the way her personality is written , so the idea of having to see her again on the show a couple of years down the road sounds like a boring waste of time and wouldn't be a reunion I'd look forward to for Tyrion. I never really got his love for her and feel that if he is meant to end up with someone it should be IMO somebody more interesting.

[kulfi]

OK, I watched the beetle scene again.  I did feel, as others did, that aside from some tidbits that highlighted teh Jaime / Tyrion relationship, it was tedious and kind of pointless.  But, after seeing so many posters try to make sense of it in the context of the episodes, I thought I would watch it again.  What I've come up with is that Tyrion is drawing a parallel between the simple Lannister and Tywin.  He even says that when Tywin would go on and on about history and dynastic ambitions and the Targareyan (SP) conquest, he wouldn't hear dragon wings, but the noise that the beetle-smasher would make.  He would dream about a seashore made of beetle bodies.  Tyrion is the beetle that Tywin is smashing and he is talking about it now because just like with the simple Lannister, he doesn't know why it has to happen and what it's all for. 

 

I mean, immediately, he knows that this is about "did he kill Joffrey" but this has always been really about Tywin and Tyrion's relationship and the idea that Tywin cares about family legacy and has been trying to find away to keep Tyrion away and apart from that legacy since his birth.  And no one will ever tell him why.  So, that's my take on it.   My other take is that it would have been better in the previous ep.  It seemed an aggravating slow-down at that moment.  Especially for book readers, who maybe aren't as much worried about Tyrion's fate.  We were like Oberyn: we kinda wanted to make it about him, too.   

 

I will say that D&D do a great job of not only faking out the Unsullied but the book readers also with the "oh! maybe they will change it and let him live!"

[Jamoche]

I guess there's this odd expectation that she ought to have been willing to die for him? 

Well, no, but I think her testimony would have been just as damaging without going into details of his sex life. My guess, just from the personalities involved (no book knowledge here) is that someone, most likely Cersei, pushed her to do that because Kings' Landing seems to be a hell of a prudish place, for all we get half our exposition in brothels. Which backfired when Oberyn is all "really, so did you?" instead of "gasp, shock, horror!" like the crowd.

 

So I could see Tyrion forgiving simple betrayal - that's only a step or two beyond what Bronn did - but not feeding the crowd's prurient interest in what they see as the pretty girl and the freakish monster.

[benteen]

Tyrion killing Shae was murder but I always considered it a rage killing.  It doesn't mean I approved of it but it would be something classified more as temporary insanity.  Especially since he didn't realize she was up there.

 

His slaying of Tywin was also murder but I'm completely fine with that as Tywin had it coming.

Edited June 4, 2014 by benteen

[ffaristocrat]

IIRC, in the books, Tyrion was pissed and hurt but he didn't kill Shae until she called him her Giant of Lannister like she did at the trial.

 

However, she didn't do that in the show so it'll be interesting to see what they use to make Tyrion snap.

[Maximum Taco]

IIRC, in the books, Tyrion was pissed and hurt but he didn't kill Shae until she called him her Giant of Lannister like she did at the trial.

 

However, she didn't do that in the show so it'll be interesting to see what they use to make Tyrion snap.

 

She said he made her call him "My Lion" in the show. 

 

It's a pretty easy swap. But it might not make too much sense because he didn't seem as upset by it in the show as he was in the books.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod note: There are many posts in here only speculating about upcoming events in eps 9 & 10, which is still continuing, therefore, please note; this topic is for discussion of episode 8 only. If you wish to speculate about events in upcoming episodes we request that you please do so in an appropriate thread such as the spoiler speculation thread or the newly posted book talk episode 9 spec thread.

Thank you for your co-operation.

[Patrizio]

Always thought from reading the books that Shae was in cahoots with Tywin for awhile. After all she is strangled with "The Hand"'s necklace; seems like an important piece of jewelry for just a jumpoff.

[mac123x]

OK, I watched the beetle scene again.  I did feel, as others did, that aside from some tidbits that highlighted teh Jaime / Tyrion relationship, it was tedious and kind of pointless.  But, after seeing so many posters try to make sense of it in the context of the episodes, I thought I would watch it again.  What I've come up with is that Tyrion is drawing a parallel between the simple Lannister and Tywin.  He even says that when Tywin would go on and on about history and dynastic ambitions and the Targareyan (SP) conquest, he wouldn't hear dragon wings, but the noise that the beetle-smasher would make.  He would dream about a seashore made of beetle bodies.  Tyrion is the beetle that Tywin is smashing and he is talking about it now because just like with the simple Lannister, he doesn't know why it has to happen and what it's all for. 

 

I mean, immediately, he knows that this is about "did he kill Joffrey" but this has always been really about Tywin and Tyrion's relationship and the idea that Tywin cares about family legacy and has been trying to find away to keep Tyrion away and apart from that legacy since his birth.  And no one will ever tell him why.  So, that's my take on it.

 

That's a pretty good interpretation.  I was rewatching some of Season 3, and it dawned on me that my real problem with that scene was that it required so much interpretation. It was like the writers were going for one of those soliloquies that give great insight into the character but missed spectacularly.  I mean, I never found myself saying "why the hell is he/she talking about this" when Jaime told Brienne about the Mad King, or when Catelyn told Talisa about praying for Jon Snow's death. 

 

Those speeches showed me something about how Jaime and Catelyn became the people they are.  This drivel told me that Tyrion... I don't know, was fascinated with his brain-damaged cousin I guess.  It showed his inquisitive nature, doing research in the Maester's library, studying Orson, etc., but we already knew that about Tyrion.  He explained the value of a sharp mind to Jon Snow all the way back in season 1.  The only real new information I got from it was that a pervy Maester tried to molest Jaime once.

[Fen]

Not just you, definitely. He's a very handsome and charismatic man. I first noticed it in the Red Wedding episode, which made me feel horribly ashamed...

 

Aha!  I thought it was just me :)  I feel horribly conflicted - but he does have a fantastic voice.  Stupid sexy Roose! 

 

kulfi - someone on Reddit did a really nice job analysing the beetle scene - saying that Tyrion's fruitless obsession with discovering why his cousin would be so cruel to harmless beetles was a direct parallel with Oberyn's obsession with a confession for his sister's murder.  I found it really convincing:

 

Explanation:http://imgur.com/a/5BBCM

Thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/277x6f/s04e08_i_noticed_the_beetle_and_trial_scenes_were/

 

I think Clarke saying Daenerys made a mistake makes more sense if you only view in the context of the show.  In the books, Jorah is pretty full-on his attraction to Dany, and there's the whole refusing to apologise thing.  Show!Jorah only let his feelings for Daenerys slip once.  He never mentioned it again, and was certainly much less aggressively sexual than his book counterpart.  He flat-out begged forgiveness, too.  Also - we saw him receiving the pardon the first time, and passing it up in favour of preventing the assassination attempt.  We saw him toil through the Red Waste with her, knowing that he could have been back in Westeros if he wanted.  He also tells her that this discord is exactly what Tywin wants - offering sound advice right until the last.  Purely in the realms of the show, her decision looks more rash.

 

I think the fact that Jorah had sins in his own past also made him a better advisor to her - more pragmatic, and more able to imagine the motives of less honourable men.  He offered shades of grey to Dany's black and white thinking.  Now she's left with Selmy (noble and high-minded, but black and white too).

Edited June 4, 2014 by Fen

[magdalene]

 

Aha!  I thought it was just me :)  I feel horribly conflicted - but he does have a fantastic voice.  Stupid sexy Roose!

The actor is very attractive, he has that special something. I have to always remind myself what evil the character has done. It's definitely the actor not the character for me - I don't find anything attractive about books Roose.

 

However, I find everything about Ramsay revolting - die already you icky eevil hobbit....

[Avaleigh]

Another small funny moment came from the Lady Declarant of the Vale. She said something to the room about Lysa always having been an "odd fish". Heh.

I think it's odd they couldn't spare a single line this episode to indicate that Robin is disturbed about his mother's sudden and unexpected death. They were unnaturally close so it's odd that he's had virtually no reaction. He was more upset over Sansa telling him that he'd ruined her snow castle.

[Zalyn]

I think Clarke saying Daenerys made a mistake makes more sense if you only view in the context of the show.  In the books, Jorah is pretty full-on his attraction to Dany, and there's the whole refusing to apologise thing.  Show!Jorah only let his feelings for Daenerys slip once.  He never mentioned it again, and was certainly much less aggressively sexual than his book counterpart.  He flat-out begged forgiveness, too.  Also - we saw him receiving the pardon the first time, and passing it up in favour of preventing the assassination attempt.  We saw him toil through the Red Waste with her, knowing that he could have been back in Westeros if he wanted.  He also tells her that this discord is exactly what Tywin wants - offering sound advice right until the last.  Purely in the realms of the show, her decision looks more rash.

 

I think the fact that Jorah had sins in his own past also made him a better advisor to her - more pragmatic, and more able to imagine the motives of less honourable men.  He offered shades of grey to Dany's black and white thinking.  Now she's left with Selmy (noble and high-minded, but black and white too).

 

Regarding how Show!Jorah expressed his feelings - I actually read Sir Iain Glen as loving and soon being in love with Dany from the first episodes.  I started watching the show first, then started marathoning the books around S1E6, so my vision of Jorah was heavily influenced by Glen's portrayal.  It doesn't hurt that he's prettied up from how he's described in the books, but the actor pretty much oozed love and adoration every moment on screen to me. I kind of wish there had been a bit of an emotional coda in an reaction shot from Dany later, but I buy Clarke's interpretation - I especially like how once she saw his actions potentially endangered her baby that it was the final straw for her.

[Maximum Taco]

Aha!  I thought it was just me :)  I feel horribly conflicted - but he does have a fantastic voice.  Stupid sexy Roose!

 

Feels like he's wearing nothing at all... Nothing At All... NOTHING AT ALL... But the flayed skins of his enemies.

[dr pepper]

OK, i've wrestled with this for several days and i've come up with a way it could have gone:

 

Oberyn (skipping back out of the Mountain's reach): Hohoho, he fights to the end! Save your strength to speak!

 

He than begins slashing the Mountain with his own monster sword, as he apparently was pllanning to in the book. He peels armor off in strips, along with some of the underlying flesh. The mountain's screams actually drive away some of the audience, including Tommen, who's carried by an attendant. Finally, the red viper gets the confession.

 

Mountain: stop it, damn you! Yes, i raped your sister! Ikilled her! And her children!

 

Oberyn: At whose command? Was it Tywin Lannister?

 

Mountain: Lord Tywin did not give the order! It was the lady Cersei! She said your sister put on airs, thought she was above everyone and i should show her just how low she really was! And then i looked over at Lord Tywin, and he just nodded. So i did as i was told-- i'm just a soldier!

 

Oberyn looks over at the audience. Cersei is swollen with rage. Tywin is grim, except for a single tick. Oberyn turns back.

 

Oberyn (sarcasticly): To the Mother's embrace, oh worthy knight!

 

He slams the sword point first through the Mountain's neck, nearly severing it. Then without looking, he pulls out a dagger and hurls it spinning at Cersei's face. It gouges her cheek and takes off half her ear and a chunk of scalp.

 

Tywin: Take him!

 

But Oberyn has already retrieved his spear and no one wants to approach the man and the weapon that felled the Mountain. Everyone hesitates. Oberyn's girlfriend joins him and they run out to the street where their escort awaits.

 

Next scene: Tyrion's quarters. Shae is on her knees clutching him.

 

Tyrion: alright, alright, i said i forgive you, now let go, you're crushing me!

 

Jaime enters. Tyrion removes a part of the wall exposing a hidden compartment.

 

Tyrion: Ah, Jamie, you're just in time to witness my forgiveness. Shae, you see? My brother knows that i don't hold those horrible words against you. Now,

watch as i also forgive the Crown. On behalf of the House of Lannister, i forgive part of the royal debt. See, two chests of gold worth. Help me load the

wheelbarrow.

 

Jamie (puts the chests in the wheelbarrow): I had a feeling you'd be leaving.

 

Tyrion: It seemed prudent to do so while Father is otherwise occupied.

 

Jamie: You know, we weren't going to let you die.

 

Tyrion: "We"?

 

Jamie: Varys and me. And Oberyn too. He said that even if he failed, he wanted to show his gratitude for you giving him the opportunity. So we studied the secret passages from Varys's maps. You know it's amazing the walls don't fall down, with all the extra spaces. The dungeons, the palace, the Tower of the Hand-- we were going to get you out secretly and put you on a ship to Dorne. They'd be sure to give you sanctuary.

 

Tyrion: Thank you, truly, it means a lot to me. Still, the ship i will be taking will be headed for Essos.

 

Tommen enters, followed by Lancel. Jamie quickly slips a cloth over the chests.

 

Tommen: congratulations, uncle Tyrion! I'm so glad you weren't guilty!

 

They all bow.

 

Tommen: Cousin Lancel is my private servant today. Mom said he was an important member of the court and i should learn to make use of his talents.

 

Lancel grins. Jamie scowls.

 

Tommen: in the story books, when a king wants to show how pleased he is with someone, he gives them a bun.

 

Tyrion and Lancel: Boon.

 

Tommen: oh, right, boon. So can i give you one, Uncle Tyrion?

 

Tyrion (bowing and kissing Tommen's hand): it would be an honor to receive one, Your Grace. Lancel, how's your scribal hand?

 

Lancel: It has been called exsquisite.

 

Tyrion: good, take this down and make two copies. I, Tommen, King of the Andals and First Men, declare that Shae, formerly handmaiden to the lady Sansa Stark, shall henceforth be known as Lady Shae Gladheart. If my royal nephew will graciously sign this in the presence of all, it will be the best boon ever!

 

Tommen: I love signing things! I've been practicing. (signs) See? Cousin Lancel has been teaching me curlyqueues! (to Shae) You're so pretty, i'm glad i can make you a lady.

 

Shae curtseys a bit awkwardly, then at Tyrion's prompting, kisses Tommen's hand.

 

Tommen: I must go now, duties, duties. Come, Lancel!

 

Tyrion: remember, Lancel. One copy goes to the royal archives and the other to my father, but not in any haste.

 

He rolls up the third copy and puts it in his jacket.

 

Tyrion: Will you see me off, Brother?

 

Jamie: Are you leaving immediately?

 

Tyrion: We will make one stop at the Great Sept to file a notice of anuulment on grounds of non consummation. Then yes, we take ship to our exile.

 

Next scene: Cersei's quarters. Her head is heavily bandaged.

 

Pycelle: I know many skilled doctors. I will send for them immediately.

 

Cersei: As if that would make a difference! Where is Martell?

 

Pycelle: The whole city guard is searching, your Grace, he'll not get far. Your lord father has gone to hiis office to compose an official protest to Dorne, so that they will understand why we did, er, what we are going to do!

 

Next scene: a low, dark tunnel. Oberyn enters, hunched over with a lit candlestub. He feels along the wall then pushes. A section slides back, revealing a ladder. Oberyn begins to climb. He has a crossbow strapped to his back.

[BlackberryJam]

You should create a thread for re-writing scenes so we can all play!

[snowblossom2]

In order for Show Shae to not seem completely ridiculous, they need to reveal, and have Tyrion know, that she has been a spy for Tywin from the beginning, although I can't remember from Shae's early episodes whether anything happens which makes that plot element ridiculous as well. If they manage to do that, then Tyrion's double homicide will be dramatically sound.

I fear they haven't done enough to make Roose Bolton anywhere close to being an interesting replacement for Tywin Lannister. The Wall remains a pretty uninteresting place, and Dany and The Dragons stills seems to be a one hit wonder. I really fear the diminishment of Clan Lannister will make future seasons much less compelling than what we have seen so far.

I always loved this theory - that Shae, from the beginning, was Tywin's plant. I think the show included subtle hints like after Tyrion and Sansa's first night, it's only Shae who comes to do the bedding and finds out they didn't have sex. Tywin, in the same episode, then remarks on Tyrion not consummating his marriage.

[John Potts]

Liked Ramsay's legitimisation scene - but would have liked Roose to get in his "A peaceful land, a quiet people" line. Even if I didn't already know their fates, I would say Roose has already set a knife at his own back (given Ramsay has already killed - sorry, been there for his unfortunate accidental death - of his legitimate heir).

Glad they short circuited the whole Alayne Stone and had Sansa be (partly) responsible for her own future (better the devil you know, indeed). I wish this arc had continued, but she goes back to being victim Sansa in future when she takes Jeyne Poole's storyline.

I actually liked the Missendei/Greyworm romance - but mostly for the fact that Danny was blatantly shipping them. I mean, since when does a queen plait her servant's hair!?

Liked Jamie's "He's certainly confident enough!" line, followed by Tyrion complaining about Oberyn drinking. A little too confident, evidently.

On ‎02‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 3:00 AM, Avaleigh said:

"[some] die squatting over their chamber pots." Thank you for that bit of foreshadowing Littlefinger.

Did like that every death he mentioned had happened in the show - he mentioned "dying at their tables" (Joffrey) and "dying in their beds" (Robert) - the only one we haven't got (yet) is "Dying on their chamber pot"