S05.E04: News Flash

phoenics · November 2, 2018

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But Iris’s continued choice to keep Nora in the dark about herself is what led to her making poor choices. If Iris had not lied to Nora all her life even as she was an adult, she would have been prepared to handle her powers. Cause and effect are very much tied together here. Both share the blame for what happens (Nora and Future Iris)

He was talking about going back in time to help with the Satellite and getting instructions on that exact time and it seems likely she was pointed to that moment but I’m pretty certain she first ran back earlier to get glimpses of her parents life. So running back accidentally initially still seems plausible and then I assume she ran home and then back and forth. And one of those times was told about the big event with the Satellite. So far though have we had any indication that her lending a hand was something she was told to do or was just her being spontaneous about helping? Wanting to help seems in character so she could have been manipulated to help without ever direct instruction.

I was confused about this. From everything they said it seemed that this was not Barry acting but was supposed to be him just not using his powers. Barry seemed really earnest about wanting to play the more challenging spot but then proved why he was in right field. I think him faking it to a degree would have made sense but that wasn’t the impression I got. But faking it to that degree doesn’t IMO make sense. Why couldn’t Barry plausibly improve at playing softball? He’d have to suppress suddenly being a star but what would it hurt to not be hopeless? So I just don’t get what was supposed to be going on with Barry’s athletic abilities... unless he thought he was better without his powers than he really was and was just clueless enough to think he didn’t need his powers to be ok playing the game? Like I said. I was confused about that whole section I don’t get what they were trying to do.

I’m still very upset that Iris wasn’t allowed to stay mad at her father longer. They rushed way too fast on her just letting it go. It didn’t feel realistic. It should have been a HUGE deal. Maybe even season long. She wouldn’t have had to ice him out of her life the whole time but there should have been a loss of trust that needed to be rebuilt.

Instead Iris being lied to all her life about her mother being dead turned not even to be about her, but was just how they brought in Wally to the show and then Iris was pushed aside and the storyline became About Joe and Wally not Iris and her mom or even Iris and her Dad. I hate how little agency they gave her in that situation or how little weight they gave to justified anger and pain. Wally knew their mom as this wonderful woman and Joe’s lie stole that relationship from Iris, something she could never get back. She wouldn’t stop loving her dad but how could this big thing between them not affect their relationship?

Nora was IMO being written as someone that hasn’t known how to just be fine with current Iris. So her solution seemed mostly to avoid dealing with Iris which from Iris’s POV was pretty cutting but from Nora’s was probably her just trying to keep the past and future separate. I mean is it really realistic to expect someone to be super warm and open to someone that becomes someone you are desperately mad at and hurt by?

Nora wasn’t overtly mean to Iris until this episode. I think she had past and Future Iris as separate as possible in her mind but then she moved in and while she wanted to move in, I think that’s when Nora went from distant with Iris to seeing more and more of Future Iris in current Iris and the lines got super blurry and she lashed out.

I honestly think if Iris had said There must have at least been a good reason initially but there’s clearly room for blame in how it was handled long term, Nora would have accepted that and they all could start talking and listening to each other.

Instead they had both Barry and Iris get stuck on being totally right all the way to the last moment in Iris’s future decision. I really don’t get why they’d be so stuck on being completely without fault in the matter especially when Iris at first seemed to get what a terrible betrayal Nora had felt.

I mean I do understand the real reason no one is talking like normal humans, they have a whole season to get through but I don’t get how Barry’s and Iris justify their hard line stance They shut Nora out Declared all her feelings invalid It’s so lacking in empathy and that is not who Barry or Iris have been portrayed as in the past.

Actually I really don't care about Barry and Iris reasoning that FutureIris must have had a good reason. I refuse to get angry at either of them for not falling all over themselves to castigate presentIris for what a future version of her did. I REFUSE because it's wrong. How could anyone blast a past version of themselves for something a future version did when they don't know the circumstances? But we are seeing present day circumstances that prove Nora is reckless, out of control and emotional. She doesn't listen. At all. She's impulsive (ha - impulse) and literally speeds off whenever the conversation doesn't go her way.

Also Nora spent all of her time here hating on someone who hasn't done anything to her yet. She hasn't shown the slightest bit of care toward PresentIris. At all. She's been nasty, petty and shady since she got here to Iris. She deserved getting smacked down and actually deserves it more. It's astonishing to me that NO ONE has called her out for how she's been behaving toward Iris - and in fact - we got Cecile and Caitlin cattily sneering at Iris over how Nora cut her down. WTF? That doesn't even make sense! It's almost like they were just WAITING for a chance to be catty at Iris - or experience someone else cutting her down. Why?

Because a LOT of how this is being written is so that Nora can be a proxy for IrisHate. That's literally it. Those kinds of scenes are baiting. They have to give the IrisHaters (disgruntled SB fans) SOMETHING to hold onto - and this apparently is it.

The writing is really problematic. I can't rock with Nora right now because her behavior is childish and doesn't make sense. She's not 22 - she's mid to late twenties and old enough to know better. And you're right - Iris should have been given more time to be angry at her father - but they don't allow that on this show.

But Nora being angry is different. She does have a right to be angry at FutureIris - so maybe she should carry her spoiled little self back to the future and confront THAT Iris.

I still think the writers are playing both sides against the middle with this storyline - a lot of what's being written is written to curry Irishate and give them something to watch in the show.

Kate45 · November 2, 2018

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But Iris’s continued choice to keep Nora in the dark about herself is what led to her making poor choices. If Iris had not lied to Nora all her life even as she was an adult, she would have been prepared to handle her powers. Cause and effect are very much tied together here. Both share the blame for what happens (Nora and Future Iris)

This is a jump, in my opinion. Perhaps, Nora’s behavior in life made Iris realize it was right to keep Nora’s powers under wraps, if Iris even inserted the chip.

There is no way to know that this is true from the information we have so far. We still don’t know that a) Iris chipped her, or b) the reason behind why Nora was chipped.

Everything we have seen so far shows that Nora is is not a rational thinker. Both Barry and Iris can be reckless people, but Nora’s recklessness is on a different level.

ursula · November 2, 2018

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

First off - it was too "pleased". They looked HAPPY that Nora cut Iris down. HAPPY?! WTF? Why? That made Cecile especially look petty and catty AF. And now Nora moves in with her? Do not like!

I think that the writers would claim that they were trying to do a "ooh, this is awkward... but also juicy" shared moment between Cecile and Caitlin and oops, it ended up looking spiteful. But I think you're on the money that it was hate-bait (disguised as "humor"), especially when you throw in The Caitlin/DP Factor, and it just looks like she was reveling over Iris being shaded.

(I will probably never understand how they believe that they're doing their Beloved Caitlin any favors by making her look like a Bitch. Much like the nonsense with Killer Frost, and the show's refusal to give any responsibility to Caitlin/KF, the fact that Caitlin acts this way and never gets called out makes her a bad character both Doylistically and Watsonianly. I will never stop being surprised at how the writers's determination to keep this character in her White Feminist wrapper bubble when it effectively harms her more than her "rival", Iris).

But I don't think the storyline won't eventually vindicate Iris. Even if that's what they planned, or intended to "forget", there's waaaaay more support for Iris from casual viewers than I suspect they realized/imagined. (DP must have been blindsided by how many people reacted in the complete opposite way she wanted them to that tweet).

Edited November 2, 2018 by ursula

benteen · November 2, 2018

Maybe we just need to assume that the West-Allen family simply sucks. They consistently lie and conceal information from each other, consistently cause every single threat they have to deal with every season and consistently refuse to learn from any of their mistakes. They have reaped what they have sown.

I don't need perfect heroes on the shows that I watch (I admit that I don't really watch The Flash anymore). But I do require them to actually learn from their mistakes and not repeat them in an endless pattern. These characters are not heroes when they consistently have to put out the fires that they cause.

Edited November 2, 2018 by benteen

adora721 · November 2, 2018

14 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Maybe her speed caused her to age four years in a week and they stopped her powers so she grow at a normal rate,

Didn't something like his happen to

Spoiler

Bart Allen in the comics? "Impulse[edit]

Suffering from a hyper-accelerated metabolism, Bart Allen was aging at a faster rate than that of any other human being, thus causing him to appear the age of twelve when he was chronologically only two years old. To prevent him from developing mental health problems, he was raised in a virtual reality machine which created a simulated world that kept pace with his own scale of time. When it became clear that this method was not helping, his grandmother, Iris Allen, took him back in time to the present where The Flash, Wally West, tricked Bart into a race around the world. By forcing Bart into an extreme burst of speed, Wally managed to shock his hyper metabolism back to normal.[5] "

This would be a good reason for dampening Nora's powers.

ursula · November 2, 2018

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

Plus DP then tweeted about this, begging for Iris-hate. But SURRRREEEEEE this storyline has NOTHING to do with baiting Iris-haters.

FYI: DP deleted her tweet when it got overwhelming Iris support. Sure that was just a coincidence. ?

GHScorpiosRule · November 2, 2018

6 hours ago, benteen said:

Maybe we just need to assume that the West-Allen family simply sucks. They consistently lie and conceal information from each other, consistently cause every single threat they have to deal with every season and consistently refuse to learn from any of their mistakes. They have reaped what they have sown.

I don't need perfect heroes on the shows that I watch (I admit that I don't really watch The Flash anymore).But I do require them to actually learn from their mistakes and not repeat them in an endless pattern. These characters are not heroes when they consistently have to put out the fires that they cause.

As to that, well Barry has learned. He didn’t keep the sekrit that Nora could go back and that he is still missing in the future from Iris.

I was really hoping that Nora had finally warmed up to Iris after Iris walked her through how to stop the fire. Her grateful “Thanks Mom!” Seemed to indicate that. But nope.

If Nora were a teenager I could probably accept her bratty behavior. But she’s not. She’s in her mid to late 20s. And the fact that she was told that it was Iris who chipped her and that Nora didn’t stick around to ask why or if it was true, makes everything she says, suspect.

Edited November 2, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

Kate45 · November 2, 2018

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

If Nora were a teenager I could probably accept her bratty behavior. But she’s not. She’s in her mid to late 20s. And the fact that she was told that it www Iris who chipped her and that Nora didn’t stick around to ask why or if it was true, makes everything she says, suspect.

Bingo on all points mentioned. I’ve always thought they should have made Nora from 18 years in the future, with her being 15 or 16. This story would make so much more sense down to her behavior which reads are unbelievably young for a woman in her late 20s. JPK could totally pull it off and 15+ years in the speedforce is still shocking. This level of petty at 16 makes sense, but it doesn’t in her late 20s.

Tbh, Nora’s behavior at this age is all the reason I need for why Iris may have dampened her powers. Her fully developed brain still has her acting in immature ways. It’s not cool.

Janie430 · November 2, 2018

I don't know, in the hands of good writers, they could do a lot with the Nora/Iris dynamic. One of the things Savitar showed was that people change. Echo Barry was at one point very similar to real Barry, until the emotional ramifications of being a time remnant, and having Team Flash reject him, caused him to change beyond recognition. Current Iris would never try and control her child. Current Iris is very supportive of Metas. But future Iris? I can think of three storylines where it could make sense, with both Iris and Nora being right about why it happened.

Iris burned out after years of being targeted by metas, and having her husband disappear, and decided that she needed to cut metas out of her life in order to keep her daughter from disappearing too;
Even without powers, Nora was a reckless impulsive kid and raising her as a single parent caused Iris to be controlling, and the chip became a continuation of this;
In addition to Barry's speed gene, the addiction gene was also passed down from Iris, and Nora is emotionally stunted because she spent a decade at the bottom of a bottle of booze or pills. You don't want an active addict speedster. But part of the reason she turned into an active addict was because she felt like everyone was keeping something from her, and she's reeling.

They can do Iris being right and wrong, but I don't trust these writers to do this.

Trini · November 2, 2018

Anyone think the Mayor resigning will be significant? They snuck that detail in there, but I'm not sure why. I was thinking it might be connected to Spyn, but the show didn't make a direct connection.

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12 hours ago, ursula said:

casually passed the Bechdel test without making it into a Very Special Episode like Girls' Night -

Oh yeah; forgot to mention this earlier. This was one of the better episodes for women interacting with other women - something the show has always been bad at. Lots of Iris/Nora, but also Iris/Spencer, Nora/Spencer, all the regular women at the ball game, and a bit of Nora/Cecile.

7 hours ago, ursula said:

I think that the writers would claim that they were trying to do a "ooh, this is awkward... but also juicy" shared moment between Cecile and Caitlin and oops, it ended up looking spiteful. But I think you're on the money that it was hate-bait (disguised as "humor"), especially when you throw in The Caitlin/DP Factor, and it just looks like she was reveling over Iris being shaded.

(I will probably never understand how they believe that they're doing their Beloved Caitlin any favors by making her look like a Bitch. Much like the nonsense with Killer Frost, and the show's refusal to give any responsibility to Caitlin/KF, the fact that Caitlin acts this way and never gets called out makes her a bad character both Doylistically and Watsonianly. I will never stop being surprised at how the writers's determination to keep this character in her White Feminist wrapper bubble when it effectively harms her more than her "rival", Iris).

But I don't think the storyline won't eventually vindicate Iris. Even if that's what they planned, or intended to "forget", there's waaaaay more support for Iris from casual viewers than I suspect they realized/imagined. (DP must have been blindsided by how many people reacted in the complete opposite way she wanted them to that tweet).

I think the writers have better things to do than to appease minority of 'fans' to hate the show even more.

Caitlin continues to look bad because they don't actually care that much about her, and they know she's not that important to the overall narrative; which is why she can have her own plot off to the side, and retcon her backstory. They need something for her to do.

Meanwhile I'd rather pay attention to Barry & Iris who are actually important to the past, present, and future mythology of the show.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Trini

phoenics · November 2, 2018

7 hours ago, ursula said:

FYI: DP deleted her tweet when it got overwhelming Iris support. Sure that was just a coincidence. ?

I am caught somewhere between laughing maniacally and spitting fire.

phoenics · November 2, 2018

2 hours ago, Trini said:

I think the writers have better things to do than to appease minority of 'fans' to hate the show even more.

It's not appeasing them to hate the show. It's giving them bones so they watch - in a love to hate Iris kind of way. They hate her, but they are still engaged. And if they aren't getting SB or Iris killed off like they want, then stories like this where they have something to bash Iris over and add to the buzz about the show - well producers consider that a win.

Brad Bell of The Bold and the Beautiful used to say that even if fans are mad, they're still engaged. He milked decades of top ratings out of creating storylines that centered Brooke Logan Forrester - either folks loved her or hated her. He gave the haters a foil against Brooke in the form of Taylor and that literally went on for 20+ years. It was the heyday of soaps - and that whole love/hate thing literally drove ratings. I had a few chats with Lee Bell, one of the producers (she and her husband created the show) and I asked her if they specifically wrote to give bones to the Brookehater fans and she said absolutely. She said that the fans of the show were divided into Brooke haters and Brooke fans (Taylor didn't have fans who actually loved her, they just loved that she made Brooke miserable) - Brooke was literally the cornerstone of the show and most storylines involved ones where her fans could still cheer her on, but they gave the haters bones too. It was brilliant in a sick way, lol.

This is the same thing. I think the writers realized that they could have their cake and eat it too. If they were going to finally give CP her due as leading lady of the flash, they were going to put her in storylines that gave her haters a bone too. Simple. And it happens all the time in tv.

BkWurm1 · November 3, 2018

13 hours ago, phoenics said:

Actually I really don't care about Barry and Iris reasoning that FutureIris must have had a good reason. I refuse to get angry at either of them for not falling all over themselves to castigate presentIris for what a future version of her did. I REFUSE because it's wrong. How could anyone blast a past version of themselves for something a future version did when they don't know the circumstances? But we are seeing present day circumstances that prove Nora is reckless, out of control and emotional. She doesn't listen. At all. She's impulsive (ha - impulse) and literally speeds off whenever the conversation doesn't go her way.

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Under the same reasoning, how can anyone exonerate themselves completely from any possible future mistake without knowing the actual circumstance? I would have zero problems with Iris and Barry believing she had a good initial reason in dampening Nora's powers. Of course, she did. Iris isn't a monster. But the show not leaving any room for grey areas or any acceptance of any wrongdoing in current Barry and Iris's opinion of the future decision, a decision that like you pointed out they do not know any of the circumstances, that's that part that I find so incredibly off-putting. It's sooo self-righteous!

Iris had every right to cope however she needed to when Nora was young, but that kind of protection stops being about the kid once they are not a kid and becomes Iris’s problem and need to control something she doesn’t actually have the right to control anymore. I have no ire toward the initial choice but I am upset that current Iris assumes she still must have been right even years after Nora wasn’t a kid. Even if Iris’s reason was that Nora’s powers were killing her, she had an obligation to let Nora know about her own life and body even if she was afraid Nora wasn't mature enough.

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Also Nora spent all of her time here hating on someone who hasn't done anything to her yet. She hasn't shown the slightest bit of care toward PresentIris. At all. She's been nasty, petty and shady since she got here to Iris. She deserved getting smacked down and actually deserves it more. It's astonishing to me that NO ONE has called her out for how she's been behaving toward Iris - and in fact - we got Cecile and Caitlin cattily sneering at Iris over how Nora cut her down. WTF? That doesn't even make sense! It's almost like they were just WAITING for a chance to be catty at Iris - or experience someone else cutting her down. Why?

1

The below paragraphs go into why I don't think what Nora has done is as deserving of hate as it has gotten but I agree that it's astonishing no one spoke to her about her coolness to Iris. Specifically, I'm side-eyeing Barry for never stepping up and handling that. He majorly left Iris floundering there. Not a good look. But then I think he overcompensated in supporting her future self as 100% right all the way to the moment Nora found out about her powers. He needs balance.

I did not take it Cecile and Caitlin sneering at Iris, but rather nervous "Yikes" smiles but that's just a side thing.

What I wanted to point out is that while Nora avoided Iris and didn't engage or even make an effort to get closer to Iris, until this episode, Nora actually wasn't being nasty or cruel or saying anything insulting. What she did was avoid Iris and keep her at a distance. Which still hurt Iris a lot but it wasn't Nora making potshots at Iris.

Given the betrayal and utter lack of trust Nora currently feels for FutureIris, while it would have been great if Nora had been able to be warm toward Iris, no one is really required to be anything more than civil and polite to someone they just met (which would be the argument if she was supposed to view past Iris as a totally separate person from Future Iris) and the majority of Nora's time she did just that. She was polite and civil.

It's only when we factor in her future relationship with Iris that her behavior seems petty or cruel BUT if we insist on factoring her future relationship with Iris in how she treats past Iris, then why should we expect Nora not to also factor in the current anger and betrayal and lack of trust that she feels for future Iris?

I just don't think we can have it both ways. I don't think it's fair to blame Nora for not being warmer to past Iris because she's her mom in the future while also expecting Nora not to factor in her future relationship with her mom to current Iris.

So I'm not holding against Nora most of her polite but distant behavior that only morphed to actually being deliberately mean or hurtful in this episode.

In this episode, I think they made it clear that Nora was seeing too much of futureIris in currentIris to keep that polite distance anymore. Behaviors, repeated mother/daughter patterns, and perceived comments were pushing Nora's buttons since they were sore points in her relationship with her mother in the future. Nora, I agree owed Iris an apology for her outburst and I thought from her vibe before that last scene that Nora likely would have been ready to make peace until Iris and Barry told her basically she should still not have her powers and invalidated all of her feelings about the lies and secrets. I mean, if they both believed that Iris was absolutely right all the way, then what else is Nora to think?

I think the most telling thing was Nora said the worst thing was not finding out from her mom that she had powers. I really think the issue isn't the initial dampening but the continued lie. Nora said she felt her entire life like she wasn't whole and didn't fit. Finding out that your mother could have unlocked so many answers and instead likely conspired with all of your loved ones to keep her from finding out or be her true self had to rock the very foundation of her life. I can't help but be sympathetic and forgiving of her lashing out VERY occasionally.

We talk about on these board overblown Iris hate because I don't think anyone doubts that this season ends with Nora and current Iris all made up and loving.

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I can't rock with Nora right now because her behavior is childish and doesn't make sense. She's not 22 - she's mid to late twenties and old enough to know better.

Our families have a way of bringing us back to old behaviors. And if as it seems that Nora and Iris always had kind of a rocky relationship with Nora feeling she could never please her mother then it's probably safe to say that they didn't ever achieve a healthy adult dynamic. Actually, knowing that Iris never told Nora some super vital facts about her own body, we do know that for a fact. So I think with all the changes in Nora's life in a short period of time how she's acted makes a lot of sense.

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But Nora being angry is different. She does have a right to be angry at FutureIris - so maybe she should carry her spoiled little self back to the future and confront THAT Iris.

I think we are supposed to believe that she's too hurt and betrayed to deal with that Iris and that the lessons she learns about how her mother is as a person and not just "mom" while let her return and mend their relationship....or they will undo Barry vanishing and with Dad around her life completely changes and her dynamic with her mom never was strained.

With this loss of blind adoration toward Barry with him only seeing the choice in black and white, right or wrong, back up Iris or not without any nuance, I do think it is surprising that Nora wouldn't leave. But maybe she's actually being responsible and sticking around despite being hurt because she does need the training that Barry can give her.

So many of the things that are a mark against Nora now are tied up with her only in the last six months finding out she had powers. Her rush to prove herself was a part of why she wouldn't listen. Her lack of experience was a big part of the mistakes she made. Not having the benefit of what years of preparation for dealing with her powers changes everything. Those are all skills that can be taught, that Barry and Iris have now been teaching her. And she's gotten so much better at not rushing in when she's over her head. She does listen to Barry's instructions and Iris's as well in the field. And all this improvement after only what, a month? Imagine how much further along she'd have been if she'd been getting instructions since her young adult stage.

12 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Everything we have seen so far shows that Nora is is not a rational thinker. Both Barry and Iris can be reckless people, but Nora’s recklessness is on a different level.

1

Well Barry has the lifetime achievement award on being reckless and a non-rational thinker. Nora can't compete with Flashpoint since that was a choice Barry made after two years of knowing he couldn't save his mom like that. I really don't think Nora has been shown to be at all worse than either of her parents. I could go down a long list of things we've seen from Iris and Barry that would far exceed anything wth Nora. So far her worst mistakes seem to be stuff Barry was doing years into his training. At least she's still a neofite, lol.

BkWurm1 · November 3, 2018

18 hours ago, ursula said:

I don't think it's complicated: the show's always been consistent that without his speed, Barry's a klutz. ("He runs slow for a normal person"). It was for laughs.

I don't find it complicated on first glance, sure it's just being played for laughs, my issue is it doesn't really make sense that Barry wouldn't touch his speed to up his game just a touch. It doesn't seem in character for him not to since it's a part of really everything he does. It's presented as automatic most of the time. And so if for softball he doesn't' use his powers, then why isn't he? And also, how does he NOT just slip into his powers when he needs that tiny bit of extra speed?

Bottom line I think I just think they wrote him out of character. He runs slow for a normal person but he's not one anymore.

BkWurm1 · November 3, 2018

12 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

If Nora were a teenager I could probably accept her bratty behavior. But she’s not. She’s in her mid to late 20s. And the fact that she was told that it was Iris who chipped her and that Nora didn’t stick around to ask why or if it was true, makes everything she says, suspect.

I also was under the impression she didn't stick around in the future but I hopped over to her wiki page and it reminded me that she was considered a guardian of Central City so she must have stuck around in her time or at least went back and forth enough to gain her rep. So it's hard to know exactly how getting answers or not went down.

Just because she wasn't ready to hear any explanations or a defense of her mom's decision doesn't mean Nora has said anything untrue. She only knows the truth from her perspective but that doesn't mean she's misleading anyone.

And while I'm sure there will be some mitigating circumstances, I think keeping it a secret from Nora will eventually be acknowledged as at the very least, an overreach.

Edited November 3, 2018 by BkWurm1

Velocity23 · November 3, 2018

I just wonder if the person who told Nora was Eobard ... and if future/present Iris considered it might happen. And if Barry remembers the promise RF made him during the crisis crossover.

steelyis · November 3, 2018

What does Nora, in the throes of her mid-twenties adolescent angst, think she's accomplishing acting the way she does towards Iris?

Iris could easily start thinking she screwed up being a parent and decide to put off being a mother, or not be a mother at all. What if Barry had taken Nora's side and his lack of faith in Iris severely damaged their marriage or caused them to divorce, what then? Nora is already playing with nuclear fire running around in the past, why jeopardize her parents relationship before she's born?

If Nora is as dumb in the future as she is in the past then Iris was right to keep her idiot daughter from having the power of a speedster.

Kate45 · November 3, 2018

13 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I also was under the impression she didn't stick around in the future but I hopped over to her wiki page and it reminded me that she was considered a guardian of Central City so she must have stuck around in her time or at least went back and forth enough to gain her rep. So it's hard to know exactly how getting answers or not went down.

Or the other obvious issue is that she’s lying. We already know she’s lying about some stuff. I don’t think she’s lying in the belief that her mom chipped her, but I do think she’s lying about her mom wanting to control her and the idea that she got any info at all from her mom.

She said she found about her powers 6 months ago and she’s been in this time period (rememeber the wedding) from just about the time she found out. That guardian of CC statement is a lie, as is the reason that she gave her parents and the team for why she wanted to be here (meet her dad, etc,). She’s actually trying to change a “fixed point” in time by never allowing him to disappear)

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think the most telling thing was Nora said the worst thing was not finding out from her mom that she had powers. I really think the issue isn't the initial dampening but the continued lie. Nora said she felt her entire life like she wasn't whole and didn't fit. Finding out that your mother could have unlocked so many answers and instead likely conspired with all of your loved ones to keep her from finding out or be her true self had to rock the very foundation of her life. I can't help but be sympathetic and forgiving of her lashing out VERY occasionally.

I agree with most of this, but again I think it's mostly questions that haven't been answered. To our knowledge, Iris can't make dampeners or insert them, which suggests as a minimum Iris had help, likely from Cisco and Caitlin. So, where is her anger for everyone one else who kept up this rouse, if that's how it happened?

I started having issues with Nora's behavior when it was clear she was trying to hurt Iris. With the only hugging Barry, consistently in Iris' presence, then giving her number out to everyone but Iris plus blocking her for no reason (!!!), and then the absolute attack on what she knows is her mom's profession. She is trying to take digs at her mom, and wouldn't even tell her mom why she was acting like that.

At the same time, she clearly wants Iris' approval as seen in multiple episodes, so it's still a complex relationship.

4 hours ago, steelyis said:

What does Nora, in the throes of her mid-twenties adolescent angst, think she's accomplishing acting the way she does towards Iris?

Iris could easily start thinking she screwed up being a parent and decide to put off being a mother, or not be a mother at all. What if Barry had taken Nora's side and his lack of faith in Iris severely damaged their marriage or caused them to divorce, what then? Nora is already playing with nuclear fire running around in the past, why jeopardize her parents relationship before she's born?

If Nora is as dumb in the future as she is in the past then Iris was right to keep her idiot daughter from having the power of a speedster.

This has been a question I have had for a while. If your actions are too over the top, your conception (which should happen in just a while) won’t happen. Again, with the short-sightedness of a teenager.

I don’t like Iris possibly lying to her daughter in the future, but the show is making a good case as to why it may not have been such a bad idea.

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well Barry has the lifetime achievement award on being reckless and a non-rational thinker. Nora can't compete with Flashpoint since that was a choice Barry made after two years of knowing he couldn't save his mom like that. I really don't think Nora has been shown to be at all worse than either of her parents. I could go down a long list of things we've seen from Iris and Barry that would far exceed anything wth Nora. So far her worst mistakes seem to be stuff Barry was doing years into his training. At least she's still a neofite, lol.

Nora has created her own FlashPoint and with seemingly much less actually happening to her that caused her to do it. Based on what we have seen so far, her changing the the situation with the satellite was in fact changing a fixed point. Plus, the only thing she has told us that she hasn't told anyone else is that she's planning to change another fixed point: her dad's disappearance. I feel very confident that someone else is pulling the strings here, and that Nora is being played just like how Spyn played her.

Outside of that, we only know that she's already made changes to this current timeline. We don't know the extent to which things have changed in the future for her or anyone else. She's made mistakes that she doesn't even understand yet.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Kate45
questions I forgot to answer.

GHScorpiosRule · November 3, 2018

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't find it complicated on first glance, sure it's just being played for laughs, my issue is it doesn't really make sense that Barry wouldn't touch his speed to up his game just a touch. It doesn't seem in character for him not to since it's a part of really everything he does. It's presented as automatic most of the time. And so if for softball he doesn't' use his powers, then why isn't he? And also, how does he NOT just slip into his powers when he needs that tiny bit of extra speed?

Bottom line I think I just think they wrote him out of character. He runs slow for a normal person but he's not one anymore.

I just saw it as Clark controlling his strength and speed when he was playing Football on Smallville, of course the difference here is that Barry makes himself look pathetic and bad for laughs, while Clark was a good player.

Edited November 3, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

immortalfrieza · November 3, 2018

@BkWurm1 I'm with you. Anything short of Nora's powers killing her just for having them, and there's no indication of that, isn't a "good reason" for Iris to take away Nora's powers. Never telling Nora she even had powers is something that can't be justified regardless of the risk of the powers themselves. It would be one thing if FutureIris had the chip implanted so Nora wouldn't have her powers go out of control and destroy herself or go supervillain. However, if that was the case she should have told Nora she had powers the moment she was old enough to understand the concept and then had the chip removed when she was old enough to plausibly control her powers and use them responsibly i.e. long LONG before Nora had to find out on her own.

Regardless, my point is Iris has no excuse not to have told Nora she had powers and that she had a chip implanted to suppress them more than a few years into Nora's life, anything else would have been the result of Iris being controlling and manipulative. Worst of all, now Iris' past self has the gall to before she even knows why she would do it defend actions that would be indefensible even if they were in the future and Nora was chewing out the version of Iris that actually did it. On top of that, now Barry is defending Iris's future actions despite not knowing why FutureIris would do it either, just assuming outright it's for benevolent reasons. NewsFlash Barry and Iris, just because an action is done for benevolent reasons doesn't mean that action isn't still extremely EXTREMELY wrong. That's under the assumption that FutureIris did what she did for truly benevolent reasons in the first place and not because of some hangup or another.

I also have no problem with Nora being supposedly "cruel and cold" to PresentIris, Nora did what should be expected in her situation. Nora was royally screwed over by her own mother, naturally she's going to not be particularly warm to Iris at any point in her life whether she'd actually done it yet or not. The fact that Iris could royally screw Nora over in the future means she has a capacity to do so in the present. Nora showed some restraint despite this and was just polite and civil until Present Iris felt the need to constantly try to connect with her. This is despite the fact that anybody with more than 2 brain cells should be able to tell quickly that Nora wanted nothing to do with her than she had to. In response Nora throws some backhanded comments as a response to Iris' badgering. With this episode, Iris has finally outright asked what Nora's problem is... and she's a petulant teenager for actually, you know, telling her when she asks? Then Iris despite a complete lack of context doubles down on what she does in the future, giving Nora perfectly good reason to hate Iris in BOTH time periods.

Kate45 · November 3, 2018

1 hour ago, immortalfrieza said:

I also have no problem with Nora being supposedly "cruel and cold" to PresentIris, Nora did what should be expected in her situation. Nora was royally screwed over by her own mother, naturally she's going to not be particularly warm to Iris at any point in her life whether she'd actually done it yet or not. The fact that Iris could royally screw Nora over in the future means she has a capacity to do so in the present. Nora showed some restraint despite this and was just polite and civil until Present Iris felt the need to constantly try to connect with her. This is despite the fact that anybody with more than 2 brain cells should be able to tell quickly that Nora wanted nothing to do with her than she had to. In response Nora throws some backhanded comments as a response to Iris' badgering. With this episode, Iris has finally outright asked what Nora's problem is... and she's a petulant teenager for actually, you know, telling her when she asks? Then Iris despite a complete lack of context doubles down on what she does in the future, giving Nora perfectly good reason to hate Iris in BOTH time periods.

Correction: Nora believes she has been royally screwed over by her mom. While I would totally expect that it would be difficult for Nora to completely divorce PresentIris from FutureIris, I do struggle with her not at all appreciating how much her mom has tried to reach out to her, which is far more than Barry has tried to reach out to Nora at this point. I really don't understand why you have characterized Iris' actions as "badgering" Nora. How did you come to that conclusion?

Did most people have this same reaction when Barry came to this conclusion with Joe and Harry back in season 2? He showed that he simply still believes the same way.

It's interesting that neither Iris nor Barry said it was the right thing to do, rather that there must have been a good reason for futureIris to do this in the future. I agree with them Whether right or wrong, nothing we know about Iris suggests that she would do it for any reason other than to protect her daughter. I don't see anything in Iris that would suggest that manipulation or control would be a part of this equation. That sounds like the line of someone who wanted Nora to believe the worst about her mom, from my perspective. And Nora comes off as a gullible person.

ursula · November 3, 2018

3 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Nora showed some restraint despite this and was just polite and civil until Present Iris felt the need to constantly try to connect with her. This is despite the fact that anybody with more than 2 brain cells should be able to tell quickly that Nora wanted nothing to do with her than she had to. In response Nora throws some backhanded comments as a response to Iris' badgering.

You are aware that Nora literally travelled back in time, and broke the laws of physics and --- I don't know --- God, maybe --- to enter Iris's present life? Like I'm not sure, but I don't know how Iris is supposed to think Nora doesn't want anything more to do with her than she has to -- when Nora literally shouldn't exist in this time! The only reason why Iris knows Nora in present-day is because of Nora!

(And of course, Nora moving into Iris's home ---- is also an indication that she doesn't want to have anything to do with her mom????)

Iris ... felt the need... to connect with her child? As opposed to ... what, exactly? OK, maybe it's a cultural thing but am I missing something? Is there any other expectation of a mother-daughter relationship? Was Iris supposed to be indifferent towards Nora's attitude to her? Was she stepping out of line making breakfast, conversation, trying to get to know the daughter who literally came out of her own timeline to enter Iris' life?

Like I'm still amused, but I'm also borderline horrified that this is anyone's expectation of how parents are supposed to relate to their children, time-travelling shenanigans notwithstanding.

Edited November 3, 2018 by ursula

Katsullivan · November 3, 2018

3 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

his is despite the fact that anybody with more than 2 brain cells should be able to tell quickly that Nora wanted nothing to do with her than she had to. In response Nora throws some backhanded comments as a response to Iris' badgering.

Sounds like you're making a good argument for Iris to get her tubes tied. If what she has to look forward to in the future is single-motherhood over this brat then home girl needs to get her a Plan B. Literally.

14 minutes ago, ursula said:

Like I'm still amused, but I'm also borderline horrified that this is anyone's expectation of how parents are supposed to relate to their children, time-travelling shenanigans notwithstanding.

Not parents. Just Iris. The problem with looking for reasons to hate a character is that the reasoning rarely makes sense.

On 02/11/2018 at 9:09 AM, phoenics said:

Because a LOT of how this is being written is so that Nora can be a proxy for IrisHate. That's literally it. Those kinds of scenes are baiting. They have to give the IrisHaters (disgruntled SB fans) SOMETHING to hold onto - and this apparently is it.

Well you called it.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Katsullivan

Starry · November 3, 2018

16 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well Barry has the lifetime achievement award on being reckless and a non-rational thinker. Nora can't compete with Flashpoint since that was a choice Barry made after two years of knowing he couldn't save his mom like that. I really don't think Nora has been shown to be at all worse than either of her parents. I could go down a long list of things we've seen from Iris and Barry that would far exceed anything wth Nora. So far her worst mistakes seem to be stuff Barry was doing years into his training. At least she's still a neofite, lol.

And one day after his dad was murdered, right in front of him, by another evil speedster, in the same spot his mom was killed. Barry has been catching hate for Flashpoint for years and while I obviously think it was the wrong thing to do he's IMO deserving of sympathy because of the mental state he was in when it happened.

I don't think Nora is the worst and while her emotions and feelings are valid, and the origins of her own Flashpoint are sympathetic, I refuse to put her mistakes on Iris or on anyone else. Just like Barry, the way Nora reacts to bad news is on her, not on Iris. Considering how impulsive and gullible she is there's no guarantee that if Iris had told her sooner she'd be a better speedster. She could have been exactly like Barry, years into her training and still making the same mistakes a rookie would make.

Iris agreed that her future self must have had a good reason to keep Nora's powers a secret only after she had to nerf her in the present. She said it herself, before witnessing what happened with Spin Iris couldn't fathom a situation where she would do that to Nora but what they experienced as a family that day put things into perspective. It's possible that what happened made her think it would be best, easier, if Nora didn't have powers at all. That doesn't mean that future Iris is right but that's how I believe present Iris rationalized it in that moment. She could finally see why it would be possible for her future self to make the choice she made. That IMO doesn't make her arrogant or self-righteous.

6 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Or the other obvious issue is that she’s lying. We already know she’s lying about some stuff. I don’t think she’s lying in the belief that her mom chipped her, but I do think she’s lying about her mom wanting to control her and the idea that she got any info at all from her mom.

She said she found about her powers 6 months ago and she’s been in this time period (rememeber the wedding) from just about the time she found out. That guardian of CC statement is a lie, as is the reason that she gave her parents and the team for why she wanted to be here (meet her dad, etc,). She’s actually trying to change a “fixed point” in time by never allowing him to disappear)

I don't know if Nora is lying or if the things that don't add up are a result of sloppy writing.

There's a disconnect here. I'm supposed to believe that Nora is so hurt by her mother's betrayal and that Iris is the reason she didn't fit in and couldn't be a hero like her dad but at the same time she uses the nickname her mother gave her as her superhero codename and Iris' jacket as a part of her speedster outfit.

BkWurm1 · November 3, 2018

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I just saw it as Clark controlling his strength and speed when he was playing Football on Smallville, of course the difference here is that Barry makes himself look pathetic and bad for laughs, while Clark was a good player.

You help me make my point. Clark's powers were a part of him. He may not have used them to break rules of physics when he was playing, but like he pointed out to his mom in a game when Mxyzptlk used his powers to force Clark to stumble and fumble the ball during the game, Clark NEVER trips. It's not possible for him to stumble because of his powers. It was only when he lost his powers or was exposed to kryptonite that he was ever really at "normal" levels. Otherwise, the best he could do was pass for normal, so if Barry was passing for normal and purposely bumbling, why did he seem so clueless about not being any good? But if he thought he was better than he was, why didn't his natural powers kick in even just a little to have actually made him a better player? It's a nitpick but it did take me out of the fun of the softball game

GHScorpiosRule · November 3, 2018

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

You help me make my point. Clark's powers were a part of him. He may not have used them to break rules of physics when he was playing, but like he pointed out to his mom in a game when Mxyzptlk used his powers to force Clark to stumble and fumble the ball during the game, Clark NEVER trips. It's not possible for him to stumble because of his powers. It was only when he lost his powers or was exposed to kryptonite that he was ever really at "normal" levels. Otherwise, the best he could do was pass for normal, so if Barry was passing for normal and purposely bumbling, why did he seem so clueless about not being any good? But if he thought he was better than he was, why didn't his natural powers kick in even just a little to have actually made him a better player? It's a nitpick but it did take me out of the fun of the softball game

Ohhh okay. I see what you mean.

BkWurm1 · November 3, 2018

8 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Or the other obvious issue is that she’s lying. We already know she’s lying about some stuff. I don’t think she’s lying in the belief that her mom chipped her, but I do think she’s lying about her mom wanting to control her and the idea that she got any info at all from her mom.

I wouldn't characterize something she thinks is true as a lie. It may not be the right answer, but she thinks it is based on other stuff in their mother-daughter dynamic.

Quote

She said she found about her powers 6 months ago and she’s been in this time period (rememeber the wedding) from just about the time she found out. That guardian of CC statement is a lie, as is the reason that she gave her parents and the team for why she wanted to be here (meet her dad, etc,). She’s actually trying to change a “fixed point” in time by never allowing him to disappear)

Two things. She can travel in time so there is no reason to assume she's gone through the past 6 months in a linear fashion. No reason to assume she didn't just pop back for those glimpses into her parent's lives until she decided to come back and actually really interact and stay in the past for a while. So we don't have anything that proves she was lying about being a guardian in her city. She was new at it and sounded like she'd had limited kinds of saves she'd been able to do but still counts. I will say that initially, I do think she let them assume she was more trained than she was when she first showed up with the lie about having to stay in their time for a while. But once she got the invite to stay just to hang, she was pretty open about the truth to her powers. I don't think we have any reason to think she didn't try to be a hero of some sort to her Central City. Just not as big of a deal since she was so new.

My other thing is actually a question. Do we know for sure that Barry's disappearance is a fixed point? I mean, I assume Barry and Iris plan on trying to stop it as well. So not sure of why Nora should be taken to task for the idea. Also, refresh my memory, did we have an overt scene of her saying or showing that was her goal??

Quote

I agree with most of this, but again I think it's mostly questions that haven't been answered. To our knowledge, Iris can't make dampeners or insert them, which suggests as a minimum Iris had help, likely from Cisco and Caitlin. So, where is her anger for everyone one else who kept up this rouse, if that's how it happened?

Those that we love the most can hurt us the most. Her mom's role would be the one that hurts the most so get the brunt of her anger. We also don't know if she knows at all about who made the dampener so she wouldn't have had a target for that part of her anger except her mom.

Quote

I started having issues with Nora's behavior when it was clear she was trying to hurt Iris. With the only hugging Barry, consistently in Iris' presence, then giving her number out to everyone but Iris plus blocking her for no reason (!!!), and then the absolute attack on what she knows is her mom's profession. She is trying to take digs at her mom, and wouldn't even tell her mom why she was acting like that.

I give her a pass on not hugging the very image of the woman you can't even stand to be in the same time line with but I agree that she really was acting out in this episode and as I said before, owed Iris an apology. She did finally explain her behavoir. Of course, it came out in anger but that isn't surprising since she was trying not to tell them for reasons we don't know (maybe as simple as trying to keep from blaming past Iris even thoough she clearly was not feeling warm and fuzzy toward her all the time)

Is their broken kind of communication aka lack of it mature or adult? No, but if anyone thinks they become perfect and wonderfully mature all the time automatically when they hit their mid twenties, well, surprise! We are all a mess of self improvement and sliding back to immaturity. It's always a work in progress and often we can be great about it except for certain people in our lives. For Nora, we know for certain she's regressing to a more childish relationship but we also now know about all the hurt and betrayed feelings that is fueiling that reaction. And she was back to living with her mom. Hard not to feel like a teen at times doing that, lol.

At the same time, she clearly wants Iris' approval as seen in multiple episodes, so it's still a complex relationship.

Quote

This has been a question I have had for a while. If your actions are too over the top, your conception (which should happen in just a while) won’t happen. Again, with the short-sightedness of a teenager.

Or maybe proof of a deep underlying love that she has for her mom and an unconscious display of the trust that deep down isn't all lost.

Quote

Outside of that, we only know that she's already made changes to this current timeline. We don't know the extent to which things have changed in the future for her or anyone else. She's made mistakes that she doesn't even understand yet.

True but that's just it, she doesn't understand all the consequences of time travel. I hold Barry way more at fault for Flashpoint since he did know. He even had the fricken Speed force come to life and tell him he had to let it go. So yes, all the Allen Speedsters make poor choices, why should Nora be held to a higher standard? Until recently, she'd been figuring her powers out alone or with "help" from some mysterious source that may or may not be EVOL! I remain sympathetic

LisaM · November 4, 2018

I love Iris and am definitely not feeling Nora.

Already over Sherloque - although his praise for Ralph was nice.

Cisco was missed.

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

6 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

@BkWurm1 I'm with you. Anything short of Nora's powers killing her just for having them, and there's no indication of that, isn't a "good reason" for Iris to take away Nora's powers. Never telling Nora she even had powers is something that can't be justified regardless of the risk of the powers themselves. It would be one thing if FutureIris had the chip implanted so Nora wouldn't have her powers go out of control and destroy herself or go supervillain. However, if that was the case she should have told Nora she had powers the moment she was old enough to understand the concept and then had the chip removed when she was old enough to plausibly control her powers and use them responsibly i.e. long LONG before Nora had to find out on her own.

1

Agreed. I'd go so far as even if they were killing her, I still think she had the right to know of that danger to her.

Quote

Regardless, my point is Iris has no excuse not to have told Nora she had powers and that she had a chip implanted to suppress them more than a few years into Nora's life, anything else would have been the result of Iris being controlling and manipulative.

Controlling, yes, but I'm wary of the word manipulative because of the negative connotations. It's likely true that Iris would have spent Nora's life discouraging anything to do with the powers she was hiding so in that technical aspect, sure, it might be true but not in any malicious way. Iris, whatever her reasons, thought she was doing something to Nora's benefit. It's just that she IMO clearly took it too far.

Quote

NewsFlash Barry and Iris, just because an action is done for benevolent reasons doesn't mean that action isn't still extremely EXTREMELY wrong.

Yes, and sometimes the difference between right and wrong does just come down to time.

Quote

That's under the assumption that FutureIris did what she did for truly benevolent reasons in the first place and not because of some hangup or another.

The only hang up I can think of is a fear based one after Barry vanishes and not wanting that life for her daughter. That would be the worst case scenario I think because it would be about Iris not being able to handle her fears, not a solid threat and would be pretty bad parenting. But I doubt that will be the case. Even when Barry was stuck FOREVER (five months) in the speed force, Iris still was willing to let other loved ones be true to themselves and use their abilities even in dangerous settings.

Quote

I also have no problem with Nora being supposedly "cruel and cold" to PresentIris, Nora did what should be expected in her situation. Nora was royally screwed over by her own mother, naturally she's going to not be particularly warm to Iris at any point in her life whether she'd actually done it yet or not.

I think it would be extremely hard to keep it separate when all the pain is still so very fresh for Nora. That she normally isn't rude or mean tells me she was trying at least not to take it out on past Iris. But in this last episode, like you pointed out, she felt like Iris was stepping more into the same old same old mom role that she'd played in her future life. And the anger really spilled out. It's a relief at least that the topic is out in the open. You have to feel for Nora having had no one in the current timeline to talk about this huge trauma in her life. Of course, her anger and betrayal came out in unhealthy ways. I just wish that Iris and Barry could have found a way to express faith in there being good intentions behind it without assuming infallibility. All it does is alienate Nora and really strain their credibility since as everyone keeps pointing out, they don't know what happened.

Quote

Then Iris despite a complete lack of context doubles down on what she does in the future, giving Nora perfectly good reason to hate Iris in BOTH time periods.

Hate is another one of those words I find problematic. It can be so imprecise and have just too many connotations. There's no question in my mind based on Nora's actions and behavior that she loves her mother very deeply. If she didn't love her so much, the betrayal wouldn't cut so deep. She's furious and probably unable to imagine rebuilding their relationship right now. That takes trust and when it comes to the choices Nora makes about her life, she doesn't trust her mom or current Iris to have her best interests, not after being burned so badly in the future.

She said a few things to jab at Iris intentionally in this episode, but she doesn't hate her, but right now, I don't think she likes who she thinks Iris is much. At the same time, she also doesn't seem positive all the time that she isn't this hopeless screw-up that she thinks her mom must have decided she is to keep this huge gift from her. There are a lot of self-esteem issues popping up in Nora because of this revelation made to her.

Even before, her mixed feelings about her nickname from her mother, XS coming from "doing things to an excess" told us a lot about how Nora felt she couldn't live up to her mother's expectations even while wanting her approval.

ursula · November 4, 2018

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

But that is my whole point. Nora does have something wrong with her relationship with her mom which is why the best she can do is treat with civility and politeness the one in the past that hasn't yet betrayed all her trust. I find it as illogical to expect Nora to completely be fine with Past Iris because her relationship with Future Iris IS a mess as you do would if her relationship with future Iris was good not to be warm and friendly to the past version. Nora sees her mom. Keeping the versions separate without any emotional spillover is expecting too much of anyone.

I guess something was lost in translation here:

20 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

until this episode, Nora actually wasn't being nasty or cruel or saying anything insulting. What she did was avoid Iris and keep her at a distance. Which still hurt Iris a lot but it wasn't Nora making potshots at Iris.

Given the betrayal and utter lack of trust Nora currently feels for FutureIris, while it would have been great if Nora had been able to be warm toward Iris, no one is really required to be anything more than civil and polite to someone they just met (which would be the argument if she was supposed to view past Iris as a totally separate person from Future Iris) and the majority of Nora's time she did just that. She was polite and civil.

It's only when we factor in her future relationship with Iris that her behavior seems petty or cruel

Because there, you are arguing that without factoring in her future relationship, Nora's not required to be anything more than civil or polite to her present-time mom.

All that aside, I'm sure that "travelling back in time to literally enter your mom's life before you existed" is as opposite from "avoiding and keeping your distance" as Nora could possibly get. If she was so mad at her mom, Nora could do like literally every other person in the world does, and move out of her house, change her numbers and cut her out of her life. Or she could have stuck to stalking Barry without introducing herself to the family. Or she could have not moved into Iris's own home.

Like, don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy with both Nora and Iris in this situation (not to brag ~~again~~, but I did call this storyline) but the idea that Iris was doing something wrong by trying to establish a relationship, and being worried at the lack of affection from the daughter just plain or that Nora's behaviour wasn't problematic --- doesn't make sense to me.

I can understand Nora. I can sympathise her. But I draw the line at justifying her.

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

7 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

his is despite the fact that anybody with more than 2 brain cells should be able to tell quickly that Nora wanted nothing to do with her than she had to. In response Nora throws some backhanded comments as a response to Iris' badgering.

Sounds like you're making a good argument for Iris to get her tubes tied. If what she has to look forward to in the future is single-motherhood over this brat then home girl needs to get her a Plan B. Literally.

Honestly! ? I mean apparently, Iris is already a screw-up of a mother who in the future abused her daughter, and in the present positively assaults the poor child with.... attention and... affection. Iris might as well put both of them out of their misery, and give up on the whole motherhood thing. /s

Sarcasm aside, Iris already had her own shitty relationship with her mother. The last thing she needs is evidence that she's going to be a bad mother. It's a profound ethical question that the show will never have the balls to explore.

Edited November 4, 2018 by ursula

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

5 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I do struggle with her not at all appreciating how much her mom has tried to reach out to her, which is far more than Barry has tried to reach out to Nora at this point. I really don't understand why you have characterized Iris' actions as "badgering" Nora. How did you come to that conclusion?

I suspect that Nora hasn't noticed any lack of outreach from Barry since she is always shadowing him. But he is training her and he is letting her work with him all day. Plus the living with them. So I don't think Barry can be characterized as not connecting with Nora, it's just he didn't have to do anything for her to be there so they could connect.

As for Iris, if Nora isn't comfortable with spending more time with Iris, than any effort of Iris to connect probably would feel like badgering even if it's not meant that way at all.

5 hours ago, Kate45 said:

It's interesting that neither Iris nor Barry said it was the right thing to do, rather that there must have been a good reason for futureIris to do this in the future.

Actually they did say it was the right thing to do with no wiggle room for mistakes at the end

That's why I was upset.

3 hours ago, Starry said:

It's possible that what happened made her think it would be best, easier, if Nora didn't have powers at all. That doesn't mean that future Iris is right but that's how I believe present Iris rationalized it in that moment. She could finally see why it would be possible for her future self to make the choice she made. That IMO doesn't make her arrogant or self-righteous.

. Being sympathetic to a choice made or even understanding the sentiment behind it isn't what made Barry and Iris arrogant and self-righteous, it was that they both said it had to have been unequivocally the RIGHT choice based on only knowing Iris would try to be a good parent.

Understanding how she could have made a choice isn't a bad thing. Deciding without knowing all the facts that it had to have been the RIGHT choice and still was even when Nora found out is what makes them arrogant and self-righteous.

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

51 minutes ago, ursula said:

I guess something was lost in translation here:

Because there, you are arguing that without factoring in her future relationship, Nora's not required to be anything more than civil or polite to her present-time mom.

I'm saying without Nora knowing Iris was her mom, no one would have expected her to welcome Iris with open arms and wouldn't have thought she was being a horrible person. That we have expectations for Nora's behavior based on who Iris becomes is factoring in their relationship to each other. Everyone was saying she shouldn't treat present Iris like she would future Iris. That it should be simple to keep them separate. I was pointing out how you can't have her treat her like a totally different person than the one she knew while also wanting her to bond with Iris because she's not a totally different person.

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All that aside, I'm sure that "travelling back in time to literally enter your mom's life before you existed" is as opposite from "avoiding and keeping your distance" as Nora could possibly get. If she was so mad at her mom, Nora could do like literally every other person in the world does, and move out of her house, change her numbers and cut her out of her life. Or she could have stuck to stalking Barry without introducing herself to the family. Or she could have not moved into Iris's own home.

She can't avoid Iris is she wanted to bond with the father she never knew. Iris is entwined in that life. She wanted to know Barry so she balanced the best she could her anger with her mother so that she could get to know Barry. I think Nora did want to try with Iris when she moved in but found it even harder to not see her mom and their issues in current day Iris. It's not right and I've said she should have apologized but it's understandable.

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Like, don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy with both Nora and Iris in this situation (not to brag ~~again~~, but I did call this storyline) but the idea that Iris was doing something wrong by trying to establish a relationship, and being worried at the lack of affection from the daughter just plain or that Nora's behaviour wasn't problematic --- doesn't make sense to me.

And I've never tried to argue that Iris shouldn't have tried to establish a relationship. (My biggest frustration previously was that Barry more so than Iris wasn't asking Nora what was up a long time ago.) My argument in regards to factoring in their relationship was about audience reaction and POV and placing a double standard on Nora for what we wanted from her. And that when broken down, it wasn't entirely logical.

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Sarcasm aside, Iris already had her own shitty relationship with her mother. The last thing she needs is evidence that she's going to be a bad mother. It's a profound ethical question that the show will never have the balls to explore.

She didn't even get to rise to the level of a shitty relationship. There was NO relationship. It's not like Iris was ever given a bad role model while growing up. And she has a loving relationship with Barry so I don't think Iris would feel like she has any reason to doubt she'd be a good mother based on her mother.

As for the rest, well, I'm pretty sure every parent screws up every kid in some manner. Being imperfect means mistakes. It's Iris and Barry not being willing to concede that there could have been any mistake along the way with this monumental decision that is the big issue for me. It isn't the initial action, it's the follow through.

Edited November 4, 2018 by BkWurm1

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

44 minutes ago, LisaM said:

Already over Sherloque - although his praise for Ralph was nice.

I have enjoyed all of the Wells...except Sherloque. He's just not a great character. To derivative. Very one dimensional. A muddy accent that comes and goes. No emotional connections. And he steps on the toes of other characters that could be investigating. I mean like ALL of them are investigators of some kind. Ralph even has his license. Joe is a police detective! They are all on a superhero crime-solving team.

Why would I want to watch some stranger save the day? I want our people to solve the problem. Nora said no one ever caught Cicada in her timeline. But the current one is a totally different person. Why at this point would the team think they can't solve this on their own? They have the bizarre thing now that Sherloque is paying off his debt but I just wish they'd brought the new Wells in to do something the others couldn't do. He feels like dead weight. Like there wasn't much thought put into him.

TC can do soo much better. Hopefully he turns him around. Right now it just seems like they brought him in so Ralph had someone to talk to.

Kate45 · November 4, 2018

33 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Actually they did say it was the right thing to do with no wiggle room for mistakes at the end

That's why I was upset.

I rewatched it based on this conversation, and they said that Iris only made that decision for a good reason. Barry said he supported all of her decisions. They didn’t say it was the right thing to do. I agree with their assessment, and I don’t think it’s abusive (which I have seen that word tossed around far too much in this situation, although not by you), and I further believe it I was for a good reason of that’s how it happened.

I have no issue with your POV, and it makes sense. I just don’t see it the same way. I appreciate the dialogue you have started with this situation/storyline. It’s one of the meatiest ones this show has ever done!

Kate45 · November 4, 2018

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

My other thing is actually a question. Do we know for sure that Barry's disappearance is a fixed point? I mean, I assume Barry and Iris plan on trying to stop it as well. So not sure of why Nora should be taken to task for the idea. Also, refresh my memory, did we have an overt scene of her saying or showing that was her goal??

I don’t know for sure that it’s a fixed point, but I can’t see how it’s not the case. It’s arguablely the most seminal moment in DC Comics history. Many people talk about DC Comics as before Crisis and after Crisis. Not to mention it’s that event that causes Wally West to become the Flash.

I’m not taking Nora to task. I’m simply saying that Nora told the audience that she plans to stop her dad from ever disappearing and it’s never been mentioned to any other character, which suggests that Nora is working secretly (even if Cisco and Iris has mentioned trying to stop it, but seem to have no plan) working on it. If she accomplishes her goal, I guarantee that it will be at the loss of another team member dying instead. At this point, I do feel strongly that a meta on the team has to die in order for this show to have any stakes. For me, that will be the mark of whether Cicada is an actual successful Big Bad.

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

54 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I rewatched it based on this conversation, and they said that Iris only made that decision for a good reason. Barry said he supported all of her decisions. They didn’t say it was the right thing to do. I agree with their assessment, and I don’t think it’s abusive (which I have seen that word tossed around far too much in this situation, although not by you), and I further believe it I was for a good reason of that’s how it happened.

I have no issue with your POV, and it makes sense. I just don’t see it the same way. I appreciate the dialogue you have started with this situation/storyline. It’s one of the meatiest ones this show has ever done!

Go back just a little bit. To the start to the scene. This is what Iris said:

"I'm sorry for suppressing your powers, but I think it was the right thing to do."

Nora misunderstands that she means when she was trying to kill Barry, and Iris corrects her and says no, she's talking about in the future, cue ominous music.

Iris's line puts all talk about having a good reason to justifying it as a right choice. And a right choice from beginning to end, right up to when Nora found out. And Barry supported Iris as being right because that is what he was backing Iris up about. That they agree it must have been the right choice. Because Iris would, of course, care about her family.

Edited November 4, 2018 by BkWurm1

legaleagle53 · November 4, 2018

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Hate is another one of those words I find problematic. It can be so imprecise and have just too many connotations. There's no question in my mind based on Nora's actions and behavior that she loves her mother very deeply. If she didn't love her so much, the betrayal wouldn't cut so deep. She's furious and probably unable to imagine rebuilding their relationship right now. That takes trust and when it comes to the choices Nora makes about her life, she doesn't trust her mom or current Iris to have her best interests, not after being burned so badly in the future.

She said a few things to jab at Iris intentionally in this episode, but she doesn't hate her, but right now, I don't think she likes who she thinks Iris is much.

I said something in Nora's thread that I think bears repeating here. People have criticized Nora for ripping into 2018 Iris for something that Future Iris did instead of confronting Future Iris in Nora's own time. It made me wonder whether Nora didn't confront Future Iris because by the time Nora found out about the dampener and had her powers restored, something had already happened to Future Iris that Nora couldn't prevent because she regained her powers too late to stop whatever happened. So Nora's anger towards 2018 Iris (and 2018 Barry now) would be twofold: First, because Future Iris interfered with Nora's natural development without Nora's knowledge or consent, and second, because nullifying Nora's powers meant that she lost both of her parents because she couldn't use those powers to prevent whatever happens to them in the future. And yes, while she didn't state it to Team Flash, Nora DID tell the viewers in her closing narration in the first episode that one of her purposes in coming back to 2018 was to use her powers to prevent Barry's disappearance in 2024.

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

4 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

I said something in Nora's thread that I think bears repeating here. People have criticized Nora for ripping into 2018 Iris for something that Future Iris did instead of confronting Future Iris in Nora's own time. It made me wonder whether Nora didn't confront Future Iris because by the time Nora found out about the dampener and had her powers restored, something had already happened to Future Iris that Nora couldn't prevent because she regained her powers too late to stop whatever happened. So Nora's anger towards 2018 Iris (and 2018 Barry now) would be twofold: First, because Future Iris interfered with Nora's natural development without Nora's knowledge or consent, and second, because nullifying Nora's powers meant that she lost both of her parents because she couldn't use those powers to prevent whatever happens to them in the future. And yes, while she didn't state it to Team Flash, Nora DID tell the viewers in her closing narration in the first episode that one of her purposes in coming back to 2018 was to use her powers to prevent Barry's disappearance in 2024.

That would be a very interesting twist! But, lol, usually the best ones do not get used so I'll not hold my breath, lol.

Thanks for the reminder about Nora's narration. I felt like i was forgetting something.

Edited November 4, 2018 by BkWurm1

DearEvette · November 4, 2018

49 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

She can't avoid Iris is she wanted to bond with the father she never knew. Iris is entwined in that life. She wanted to know Barry so she balanced the best she could her anger with her mother so that she could get to know Barry. I think Nora did want to try with Iris when she moved in but found it even harder to not see her mom and their issues in current day Iris. It's not right and I've said she should have apologized but it's understandable.

I respect this interpretation. I expect this is probably the intent. IMO, however, this isn't what I am seeing play out on screen. This is why in my posts about this I harp on the execution and the nuance. This writing isn't giving Nora any nuance. She is showing us 2 faces: utter adoration and hero worship of Barry and utter dismissal and sometimes rudeness toward Iris. I would buy that there is more there if I saw anything -- a glance, a hesitant overture, any sort of softening. Given how hard Iris is trying, you'd think we'd get a flicker of something from Nora. But it just comes off as unfeeling rebuff after rebuff.

Sure, we know that this won't last. There'll be some reconciliation because if Nora is to be at all a sympathetic character she can't keep treating her mother the way she has been. But while I think the situation is a nice meaty one, the execution has been simplistic and reductive. It has not allowed Nora to show all of complexities she's should be feeling in this situation.

Also I am not sure if we are supposed to feel that Nora is a reliable narrator. If she didn't find out about her speed & the chip from Iris then who told her? And did she even confront future Iris to find out why she did it or even if Iris is the one who did it. That last conversation between the three of them leads me to believe she never talked to future Iris about it so she herself might be working from faulty intel. Which then would make her current behavior even worse.

DearEvette · November 4, 2018

11 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

I said something in Nora's thread that I think bears repeating here. People have criticized Nora for ripping into 2018 Iris for something that Future Iris did instead of confronting Future Iris in Nora's own time. It made me wonder whether Nora didn't confront Future Iris because by the time Nora found out about the dampener and had her powers restored, something had already happened to Future Iris that Nora couldn't prevent because she regained her powers too late to stop whatever happened. So Nora's anger towards 2018 Iris (and 2018 Barry now) would be twofold: First, because Future Iris interfered with Nora's natural development without Nora's knowledge or consent, and second, because nullifying Nora's powers meant that she lost both of her parents because she couldn't use those powers to prevent whatever happens to them in the future. And yes, while she didn't state it to Team Flash, Nora DID tell the viewers in her closing narration in the first episode that one of her purposes in coming back to 2018 was to use her powers to prevent Barry's disappearance in 2024.

But don't you think if future Iris disappeared/died then Nora wouldn't be as hard on current Iris she is? I mean if she comes back after both parents are gone then this is the opportunity to see both her parents happy, alive and together in a way that she never knew them. Her reaction to Barry makes sense. But wouldn't seeing her mother alive again after she is supposedly dead trump the anger?

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

3 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Given how hard Iris is trying, you'd think we'd get a flicker of something from Nora. But it just comes off as unfeeling rebuff after rebuff.

Sure, we know that this won't last. There'll be some reconciliation because if Nora is to be at all a sympathetic character she can't keep treating her mother the way she has been. But while I think the situation is a nice meaty one, the execution has been simplistic and reductive. It has not allowed Nora to show all of complexities she's should be feeling in this situation.

1

From my POV, I feel like we have seen a conflicted Nora. A lot of long pauses that I took as indecision and temptation to let her mom in at times. And then I guess she remembers what happened and shuts down. And all the times she just shyly soaked up a bit of praise or any of those moments that Iris counted as steps forward. And in that final scene with her parents, uh, her heart is breaking all over again first with Iris saying she believed she'd been right about hiding her powers and then when Barry agreed with Iris's guess that she'd been right. All she wanted when she found out she had powers was her mom and her mom was the one that she couldn't turn to. Killed me. I also felt for Iris hurting seeing her kid hurting.

Quote

Also I am not sure if we are supposed to feel that Nora is a reliable narrator. If she didn't find out about her speed & the chip from Iris then who told her? And did she even confront future Iris to find out why she did it or even if Iris is the one who did it. That last conversation between the three of them leads me to believe she never talked to future Iris about it so she herself might be working from faulty intel. Which then would make her current behavior even worse.

I'm sure something about how she was told will be off but I am betting that she got the basic facts right, that Iris made the call. Because if Iris wasn't the one that chipped her, then Iris deciding it must have been the right thing to do would make Iris look really bad if it turns out a bad guy did it. And I don't think they'd go there.

legaleagle53 · November 4, 2018

10 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

But don't you think if future Iris disappeared/died then Nora wouldn't be as hard on current Iris she is? I mean if she comes back after both parents are gone then this is the opportunity to see both her parents happy, alive and together in a way that she never knew them. Her reaction to Barry makes sense. But wouldn't seeing her mother alive again after she is supposedly dead trump the anger?

Not if Future Iris's disappearance/demise could have been prevented by Nora being able to use her powers to protect Future Iris. So Nora would be hard on 2018 Iris because she knows that what Future Iris did ultimately resulted in Nora's losing Future Iris as well as Future Barry. Wouldn't YOU be angry if you knew that something bad happened to your loved ones that you might have prevented if you had known all along that you had the ability to prevent it but were unable to do so because you DIDN'T know you had that ability, through no fault of your own?

Edited November 4, 2018 by legaleagle53

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

7 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

But don't you think if future Iris disappeared/died then Nora wouldn't be as hard on current Iris she is? I mean if she comes back after both parents are gone then this is the opportunity to see both her parents happy, alive and together in a way that she never knew them. Her reaction to Barry makes sense. But wouldn't seeing her mother alive again after she is supposedly dead trump the anger?

2

Valid point. She probably wouldn't be allowing herself the luxury of being mad if she was grieving. But I liked the basic premise still.

Kate45 · November 4, 2018

10 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I respect this interpretation. I expect this is probably the intent. IMO, however, this isn't what I am seeing play out on screen. This is why in my posts about this I harp on the execution and the nuance. This writing isn't giving Nora any nuance. She is showing us 2 faces: utter adoration and hero worship of Barry and utter dismissal and sometimes rudeness toward Iris. I would buy that there is more there if I saw anything -- a glance, a hesitant overture, any sort of softening. Given how hard Iris is trying, you'd think we'd get a flicker of something from Nora. But it just comes off as unfeeling rebuff after rebuff.

Sure, we know that this won't last. There'll be some reconciliation because if Nora is to be at all a sympathetic character she can't keep treating her mother the way she has been. But while I think the situation is a nice meaty one, the execution has been simplistic and reductive. It has not allowed Nora to show all of complexities she's should be feeling in this situation.

Also I am not sure if we are supposed to feel that Nora is a reliable narrator. If she didn't find out about her speed & the chip from Iris then who told her? And did she even confront future Iris to find out why she did it or even if Iris is the one who did it. That last conversation between the three of them leads me to believe she never talked to future Iris about it so she herself might be working from faulty intel. Which then would make her current behavior even worse.

THANK YOU! This has been a major issue of mine with this storyline from the start. If Nora was 16, I would understand this lack of nuance. But, at the age of 27-30, it lacks logic and it’s really annoying. They should have made her younger, if they were going for this sloppy aspect.

23 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Go back just a little bit. To the start to the scene. This is what Iris said:

"I'm sorry for suppressing your powers, but I think it was the right thing to do."

Nora misunderstands that she means when she was trying to kill Barry, and Iris corrects her and says no, she's talking about in the future, cue ominous music.

Iris's line puts all talk about having a good reason to justifying it as a right choice. And a right choice from beginning to end, right up to when Nora found out. And Barry supported Iris as being right because that is what he was backing Iris up about. That they agree it must have been the right choice. Because Iris would, of course, care about her family.

I see what you are getting at now and/or why you are upset with Barry and Iris. I still don’t really agree, because I took for that conversation, as well as the one that Barry and Iris had earlier, that Iris would only do this for a very good reason.

Personally, I’m withholding judgement until we get the full picture. I think it’s clear that someone else is pulling the strings, and Nora is being played.

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

2 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Not if Iris's demise could have been prevented by Nora being able to use her powers to protect Future Iris. So Nora would be hard on 2018 Iris because she knows that what Future Iris did ultimately resulted in Nora's losing Iris as well as Barry. Wouldn't YOU be angry if you knew that something bad happened to your loved ones that you might have prevented if you had known all along that you had the ability to prevent it but were unable to do so because you DIDN'T know you had that ability, through no fault of your own?

I think they could have done this scenario, but I think the show has set it up so that Nora is more hurt about what happened to her than worried about trying to change that part of her future or even gaining the skills so she could run forward and change it

Kate45 · November 4, 2018

5 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Not if Future Iris's disappearance/demise could have been prevented by Nora being able to use her powers to protect Future Iris. So Nora would be hard on 2018 Iris because she knows that what Future Iris did ultimately resulted in Nora's losing Future Iris as well as Future Barry. Wouldn't YOU be angry if you knew that something bad happened to your loved ones that you might have prevented if you had known all along that you had the ability to prevent it but were unable to do so because you DIDN'T know you had that ability, through no fault of your own?

This is a very good point, but I still don’t see why she would treat her mom this way. She doesn’t seem to care enough about her mom to be that upset about her future death, imo.

I still question how smart Nora is based on last season. She’s book smart, but I think she lacks practical/street smarts. One reason is that I remember questioning whether Nora was actually trying to avoid Iris was because she showed up to Barry and Iris’ loft in 4x20. Why would you show up at the home of the person you are trying to avoid, hoping that person doesn’t answer the door?!?!

Coincidently, it’s the same reason that I feel confident that someone else is playing poor Nora for a fool in the future.

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

29 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I see what you are getting at now and/or why you are upset with Barry and Iris. I still don’t really agree, because I took for that conversation, as well as the one that Barry and Iris had earlier, that Iris would only do this for a very good reason.

Personally, I’m withholding judgement until we get the full picture. I think it’s clear that someone else is pulling the strings, and Nora is being played.

1

That Iris would initially do it for a good reason to me really isn't in doubt and I don't really think is a controversial stance which is why I'm sure the show went for the part about her deciding hiding the truth the whole time had been the right call. To up the DRAMA!!!!

I know this show and I know these writers. I am near 100% positive that they will skirt around the part where they said it was the right thing to do and concentrate in the future on if she had a good reason and then we'll get the good reason and Nora will be sorry she ever doubted her mom and they'll never debate if Iris was wrong to not fill her in when Nora was an adult. So knowing that, I will get it all out in this episode thread and then go back to trying not to care about some of the maddening things they do on The Flash. DON'T get me started on killing Time Remnants.

GHScorpiosRule · November 4, 2018

Now I’m just wondering if things haven’t already changed because of Nora’s continued presence in 2018. You know, the whole Back to the Future effect.

BkWurm1 · November 4, 2018

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Now I’m just wondering if things haven’t already changed because of Nora’s continued presence in 2018. You know, the whole Back to the Future effect.

Tough part is if she starts fading you don't know she's being erased from the timeline or phasing.

phoenics · November 4, 2018

23 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Under the same reasoning, how can anyone exonerate themselves completely from any possible future mistake without knowing the actual circumstance?

This doesn't even make sense. I don't need to exonerate or not exonerate myself for something I haven't done yet. Full stop. Nothing else matters.

Part of my frustration with this storyline is that there was really no need for Iris to even feel compelled to defend her future self. She didn't have to. She hasn't done anything. She could have simply said she didn't understand it and moved on. But the writers wanted this ridiculous trumped up drama to drag on and they wanted to give the Iris Haters a bone (and throw Barry in for good measure), so we got this mess.

I hate storylines where a simply "Nora - this Iris hasn't done anything to you and you treating her like trash won't be allowed. You can stay, but if you do, you have to respect your mother. If you can't do that, then leave."

That's what should have happened.

Instead we got this. Characters talking as though it was presentIris who did this.

I'm over this hate-bait storyline.

10 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

@BkWurm1 I'm with you. Anything short of Nora's powers killing her just for having them, and there's no indication of that, isn't a "good reason" for Iris to take away Nora's powers. Never telling Nora she even had powers is something that can't be justified regardless of the risk of the powers themselves. It would be one thing if FutureIris had the chip implanted so Nora wouldn't have her powers go out of control and destroy herself or go supervillain. However, if that was the case she should have told Nora she had powers the moment she was old enough to understand the concept and then had the chip removed when she was old enough to plausibly control her powers and use them responsibly i.e. long LONG before Nora had to find out on her own.

Regardless, my point is Iris has no excuse not to have told Nora she had powers and that she had a chip implanted to suppress them more than a few years into Nora's life, anything else would have been the result of Iris being controlling and manipulative. Worst of all, now Iris' past self has the gall to before she even knows why she would do it defend actions that would be indefensible even if they were in the future and Nora was chewing out the version of Iris that actually did it. On top of that, now Barry is defending Iris's future actions despite not knowing why FutureIris would do it either, just assuming outright it's for benevolent reasons. NewsFlash Barry and Iris, just because an action is done for benevolent reasons doesn't mean that action isn't still extremely EXTREMELY wrong. That's under the assumption that FutureIris did what she did for truly benevolent reasons in the first place and not because of some hangup or another.

I also have no problem with Nora being supposedly "cruel and cold" to PresentIris, Nora did what should be expected in her situation. Nora was royally screwed over by her own mother, naturally she's going to not be particularly warm to Iris at any point in her life whether she'd actually done it yet or not. The fact that Iris could royally screw Nora over in the future means she has a capacity to do so in the present. Nora showed some restraint despite this and was just polite and civil until Present Iris felt the need to constantly try to connect with her. This is despite the fact that anybody with more than 2 brain cells should be able to tell quickly that Nora wanted nothing to do with her than she had to. In response Nora throws some backhanded comments as a response to Iris' badgering. With this episode, Iris has finally outright asked what Nora's problem is... and she's a petulant teenager for actually, you know, telling her when she asks? Then Iris despite a complete lack of context doubles down on what she does in the future, giving Nora perfectly good reason to hate Iris in BOTH time periods.

I rest my whole ass case about the hate bait of this storyline. This entire post couldn't have summed up exactly my whole point better. LOL wow.

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