Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

[MarkHB]

Watch Man of Steel; it will fill in those blanks (minus Batman).  But, it's important to realize that that devastating fight with Zod was the first time that the general public ever saw Superman... and he manages to destroy a large part of a city, and kill thousands, in the course of a single fistfight (and call me a fan of destruction porn if you must, but during that fight in MoS I was thinking "Yes!  THIS is the way Kryptonians would fight!"  Zod does want to conquer the earth, until that becomes pointless (and Michael Shannon's acting at that moment is brilliant), and then he just wants to destroy humanity.

[Bruinsfan]

Well, destroying humanity was always on the to-do list from the moment he found out about Earth. Pointlessly, I might add. They could have terraformed Mars just as easily without harming any living things, been a more comfortable distance from Earth's yellow sun, and gotten Clark's full cooperation in restoring the Kryptonian civilization.

[MarkHB]

We actually have a Man of Steel thread; continued discussion of that movie would be better over there. Thanks!

[Amethyst]

Welp, finally saw it.  I'm glad that I'm not super invested in the DCU, because I can see why hard-core fans are pissed.  It's not the worst movie (not even the worst superhero movie) but considering how long people have been clamoring for this team up, Snyder and co really let down.

What did work (not much):
Affleck was good as Batman.  Wasn't thrilled about his killing and torturing folk, but his portrayal was good and I'm in the minority who actually liked the opening scene.  Seeing a different POV of the fight between Superman and Zod was very effective, and it set the tone for Batman's rage towards Superman.

The score.  Seriously, Zimmer nailed it.

Wonder Woman.  Wish her fight scenes hadn't been so short.

What didn't work (a lot)
- Eisenberg as Lex.  Eisenberg is a good actor, but this is basically the same performance he's been doing since...always?  And I still have no idea what Lex's motivation was to kill Superman.  Hatred towards Supes?  Vengeance?  What was it?  And him creating Zod-the-cave-troll made no sense, either.  I thought he was doing it because he wanted to make his own creation since his father hated him so much, or something.

- "Granny's Peach Tea."  I couldn't believe this helped lead to the downfall of the senator.  Like, actual piss.

- Speaking of which, major mistake in not showing the hearing.  I was really interested to see if Superman would actually get the chance to defend himself, but nope, let's just blow it all up!  Anyone notice that Lex had no qualms about murdering his assistant?  Don't even remember the poor girl's name.

- Lois conveniently getting into trouble in the end.  Of course Clark has to save her, while Diana's getting her ass kicked by the Cave Troll.  Just so damn dumb, and a poor way to keep Amy Adams shoehorned in the plot. 

-"Martha."  It's not even the idea that's wrong, but the execution was utter shit.  Why would Superman be calling his mother Martha, anyway?  It would have made sense if one of those photographs had Martha's name written on it or something for Batman to see, but Superman calling his mother Martha was so badly done and such an obvious plot device.

-The introduction of the Flash.  I truly have no idea how or what even happened there.  Was he time traveling?  And why did Bruce just ignore that whole event afterwards?

- Why was everyone blaming Superman?  The people in Africa (what country, btw?) were all shot, but Superman is blamed because....he showed up?

Mixed bag:
-The fight scene.  Loved seeing these three finally stand together and fight, but it still felt too short and there was no exposition besides the fighting.  They never felt like a united team.

-Cavill.  He's not the next Olivier, but I do think he's a better actor than this.  I just wish they would give some levity to Superman/Clark Kent instead of him having to prove himself all the time to the public.  It doesn't help that he usually looks bored or grim.  Especially after the hearing was bombed.  Dude looked like he was waiting for the bus.

[MarkHB]

On 3/6/2017 at 10:31 PM, Amethyst said:

Why was everyone blaming Superman?  The people in Africa (what country, btw?) were all shot, but Superman is blamed because....he showed up?

That was probably the biggest storytelling flaw in the theatrical version.  In the Ultimate Cut, we see the bad guys incinerate the bodies with flame throwers to make it look like Superman killed them with heat vision.

[Amethyst]

58 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

That was probably the biggest storytelling flaw in the theatrical version.  In the Ultimate Cut, we see the bad guys incinerate the bodies with flame throwers to make it look like Superman killed them with heat vision.

That's a really egregious thing to leave out of the theatrical version.  Changes the whole context of the trial, too.  I was wondering if Superman had accidentally killed some people or caused some additional property damage when he went to rescue Lois.

[GHScorpiosRule]

UGH. Even though slightly doped, I succumbed and watched this (bored and recovering from surgery), and Perry White (?)is a dick, Bruce/Bats is even a bigger dick and asshole-and WTF, writers?! Bats FUCKING branding people like the Nazis did?!!!! ?????

I don't care that these aren't good people. At least Nolan studied the source material when he did his trilogy. But I handwaved the retcons of Bane.

I love Clark and Supes and Alfred. How WB even let this get to film is beyond my understanding and I love Diana, and this version of Bruce and Bats don't deserve her and he/they can FUCK OFF AND DIE. 

DO NOT get me started on Eisenberg. Acting more like Joker and a bad one at that.

And everyone can just STFU and die who blame Supes for everything.????? So was all that talk that Holly Hunter's senator said to "Lex" just that? All talk? I really didn't understand her pausing, freaking out and being all scared by that bottle of "granny's peach tea."

the meds made it more tolerable to watch this, obviously, otherwise, I'd have seriously damaged my television had I watched without them, because this movie was a big pile of BULLSHIT and an insult to the actual character of Batman.

The "Batman" in this pile of shit was the true villain and monster of the movie and all his delusional talk about how his parents taught him to "Force the world to be what you live in" or whatever that crap was, as opposed to how Clark was raised? Just sounded like a jealous whiny man boy. And ohhhh, now that he hears Martha is also Clark's mother's name, he's willing to listen and help? I wish Martha had called him a monster and that he was NO FRIEND of her son!?????

Setting aside my dislike of Affleck's casting, just having Bruce not only 'appear' to lose his mind and being paranoid, but prejudging Supes and the assumption that in the end, Supes would end up being like Joker or Hitler. And that he and Clark's moms having the same name changed EVERYTHING! Not to mention making Bruce stupid, and not the smart, intelligent, detective he is. In the toons and animated movies, he has a piece of kryptonite in case Supes ever went rogue and to be used as a defense-not to be a paranoid delusional self absorbed judge and executioner and attack FIRST without proof kind of idiot monster.

Just more and more bull and horseshit, with how this petulant off his rocker, whiny man boy "Lex" (gee, I sense a pattern here) was able to use his human blood to create Doomsday, who looked more like the Abomination from Marvel's Hulk.?????

And oh look! The "Batman" in this universe needs the team of Alfred to tell him where to go and how to use his weapons like the CW hero shows do!??? And he looks more like Fatman in that get up.???

And I need to reread my Death of Superman, because I don't remember Clark also "dying." ????

The font was too tiny so I don't even know who wrote this piece of garbage and I don't agree that Affleck was the best part about this movie. No. That would be Henry Cavill, who had a thankless job and did the best he could.

The absolute WORST was the out of nowhere grief and love for Supes that showed up at the end. When every single person, except for Vikram Singh and Neil DeGrasse Tyson (who seemed to want to give him a chance) was shown to hate and blame Supes for every goddamn thing/crime that took place over the world in the past two years!???It's the movie's fault for not also showing those that loved/liked and supported him. Blaming him for everything then whining about why he wasn't there to help, just pissed me off to no end. And then willing to sacrifice him by nuking him. Who did they think would save them now?!!!???? SO MUCH DAMN FUCKING HATE for all the "writers" involved and especially Snyder. ?????

And for a bit of stupidity-who today uses actual film when taking pictures??!! It's all digital cameras these days! Yeah, yeah, PLOT. Just to reveal Jimmy????!!!!! was CIA. He was the same dude who played Julian/Grant on Smallville.  And they KILL HIM??!!! I don't care what Snyder and his ilk say that that wasn't the real Jimmy Olsen, but someone else. IMDB states he was Jimmy. And yeah, yeah, IMDB is fan edited, but in all my years of looking up to see what actors and actresses played what roles, IMDB has been accurate in telling me their roles.  The fact that he was CIA, is just another bucket of bullshit.?????

Something positive, something positive...okay yeah, the two minutes of seeing Wonder Woman being a TOTAL BADASS. Then it was ruined with that stupid bit of dialogue between Supes and Bats about how each thought she was with the other. So unearned. And FUCKING A! you fat piece of shit, failing Supes in life.???

Hate, HATED, the bit of Flash we got. I know it's Barry, who is supposed to be a FUCKING CONTEMPORARY of Diana, Batman, Aquaman, Superman, etc. and not a child. They should have just made him Bart. And I LOATHE that stubby ponytail look, AND that he's not Blonde. 

And this FATMAN has NO RIGHT to call Supes his friend. Not even close.

Sorry. Couldn't end on a positive, though I tried.??

I don't care what got deleted out, or left on the cutting room floor. If it didn't air, it didn't happen. And I sure as FUCK am not going to be wasting my money on the dvd or bluray to "see" what was left out. Snyder just had a fucking hard on to do a Batman v. Superman slugfest, that he and the writers didn't take the time to write a good story, and respect the fans to give us a good story and movie. No. They're just so hellbent on beating Marvel, which will never ever happen, and I'm a fan of both DC and Marvel, so it's not any bias in favor of Marvel talking going on here. Cavill deserved so much better.  And SUPERMAN is the hero that other heroes look up to and aspire to be like; as much as I love Batman, and I do, he's my numero uno, he is a LONER. 

So Snyder's bright idea was to kill off Supes because he didn't know what to do with him? Who the FUCK thought it was a good idea to have him direct Man of Steel and this movie, then? They couldn't find someone who knew and would respect the character? Or did he buy his way in or have to blackmail someone to do it?

The ONLY movie within this universe that even holds my interest because I saw the trailer on one of my movies I saw recently (I'm blanking which one), is Wonder Woman.  It looked pretty awesome. So I will go see it willingly and pay for it. The rest? No interest and won't see any of them. Especially not the "Justice League." DC/WB need to stick to animation, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited March 27, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule
Clarify who I'm talking about

[scriggle]

@GHScorpiosRule, tell us how you really feel. ???

[GHScorpiosRule]

40 minutes ago, scriggle said:

@GHScorpiosRule, tell us how you really feel. ???

I honestly felt I was justified in my earlier comments just based on the sneak peeks and trailers-and I steadfastly refused to see this, based on them. And I'm so glad to know I was right! Then I read everyone's comments who did see it and felt since I hadn't, I really had no standing to say anything. But. I had nothing else to do to kill time and decided to watch this piece of garbage and garbage it is. I just feel really bad for Cavill, because at the end of Man of Steel at least, Superman wasn't reviled and hated. And that one scene in this movie of him saving people in Mexico and the people treating him like a God, instead of a hero (yes, I do think there's a difference), doesn't make up for the rest of the movie treating him like shit.???

I just couldn't keep it all bottled up and needed to let it out.?

Under different writers and director, this could have been a very good movie-to show Supes and Bats as reluctant allies, who then slowly work toward a friendship. Just like in Bruce Timm's "World's Finest" three parter from The New Batman Superman Adventures.

But noooooo. Couldn't have that. ???

Edited March 27, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Dandesun]

I still say 'Batman Be-Leaguered' is an infinitely better depiction of Batman not trusting 'the alien' and then coming around. Also Bats angsting about doing everything alone while Nightwing, Robin and Batgirl drink smoothies in the background.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

I still say 'Batman Be-Leaguered' is an infinitely better depiction of Batman not trusting 'the alien' and then coming around. Also Bats angsting about doing everything alone while Nightwing, Robin and Batgirl drink smoothies in the background.

Of course it is!?

[Hanahope]

So I had avoided this movie for a long time because I had heard from other people that it was bad.  But when I saw Suicide Squad (which my friends liked), I thought that I should go ahead and watch Bv.S so I got the whole story (I had already seen Man of Steel some years ago).  I didn't think it was as bad as my friends (and others) claimed.  Yeah, it had some holes, but I could fill in at least some of the blanks.

So, I assumed that people were mad at Super because he went to go rescue his girlfriend, Lois, while the bad guys killed a lot of other people.  Why didn't Super save them?  Oh, he had to go save Lois instead.

I liked that the story continued with the theme of the Dark Knight, i.e. that Batman isn't necessarily all good super hero, he's a billionaire with some mental issues and out for revenge for many things.  If that ends up helping some people along the way, bully for them.  So I understood immediately why he was all against Super, since Super was "saving" people while causing immense destruction that kills/hurts other people, but he's considered "a god."  Batman doesn't see it that way, he saw the destruction and death on the ground and the affect on him personally.  So his animosity to Batman continued the revenge factor.

I thought the reason Super said "Martha" at that time, when Batman was winning the fight, was because he wanted to let Batman know that Super's mother needed help.  "Mom" may have meant Martha, or it may have meant Super's bio-mom.  This way, if Batman asked someone/Lois, 'what did Super mean by saying "Martha", they knew exactly who Super meant.  Of course, yeah, it worked out nicely that Batman's mother was also named Martha.  I don't think Super knew that.

So are we getting this Batman's backstory, i.e. including Robin, at some point?  I didn't know that was his costume with the "ha ha the jokes on you" writing until I was reading trivia on imdb for this movie and SS.  obviously it did explain why Robin wasn't in the movie.  I did think that Ben Afleck did a great job as Batman, in this iteration.

I love that we're getting WW, but I had to wonder what she was doing in the movie until finally she showed up in full uniform at the end (and of course giving us the scene of 3 other meta humans).  It was nice for a little chuckle, "who's she?"  "I thought she was with you."  Was her being in Gotham just a coincidence, or was there some reason?  BTW, I presume Gotham = Metropolis.  Was it ever explained why people call it different?

So Lex, I thought Jesse did fine, but I agree that Jesse pretty much just acts like Jesse, with only some minor adjustments, in all of his movies.  It was an interesting take on Lex.  I presumed that Lex pitted Super against Batman and vice versa because Lex is a brilliant, but crazy, villian, hungry for world power, which he can't take with these two superheroes running around.  I'm sure he hoped they'd kill each other.

I like that the DC comic movies are taking a darker path (but with the occasional chuckle) than the Marvel comic movies (many more chuckles/laughs).  They need to have some differences.

[MarkHB]

7 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I love that we're getting WW, but I had to wonder what she was doing in the movie until finally she showed up in full uniform at the end (and of course giving us the scene of 3 other meta humans).  It was nice for a little chuckle, "who's she?"  "I thought she was with you."  Was her being in Gotham just a coincidence, or was there some reason?  BTW, I presume Gotham = Metropolis.  Was it ever explained why people call it different?

She was trying to track down the WWI photo of herself in costume; everything else, apparently, was coincidence.  My hunch is that this Diana spent some time as some sort of secret agent, similar to what the Silver Age WW did with her "Avengers" white pantsuit period (Steed-and-Peel Avengers, not Cap-and-Thor :) .  Incidentally, that photo was taken during the filming of WW, and it's an actual glass-plate photograph.

These movies have Metropolis and Gotham across a wide bay from each other, far enough apart that there are no land crossings.  At least one old map of DC's America had Metropolis on the coast of Delaware, and Gotham in South Jersey across Delaware Bay, if that helps you picture it.  So the Daily Planet and Heroes Park with the giant statue of Superman and Zod's crashed ship are in Metropolis, and the Bat-Signal (and the two fights) were in Gotham.

[Lugal]

So I finally saw this and I was underwhelmed.  I thought Affleck was decent enough as Batman, but IMO, they need to get the influence of Frank Miller out of the DCCU.  Gal Gadot was good as Wonder Woman in the bits we had of her.  I like Amy Adams in pretty much anything, so it was good to see her again as Lois Lane.  I'm still not sold on Henry Cavill as Superman.  When I saw MOS I thought he actually makes a better Clark Kent than Superman. It's weird.  As for Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor, what the hell were they thinking?  He was way too twitchy. But I liked the clip we got of Jason Mamoa as Aquaman.

The story was meh. There was probably a good forty-five minutes they could have cut out, especially Batman's dream sequences. They gave us good reasons why Batman doesn't trust Superman, but Lex Luthor played the two of them against each other way too easily.  The "save Martha" moment and reconciliation between them felt forced, as did Batman's "I failed him" moment at the end.

The cave troll that was Doomsday didn't work.  I liked it better in the comic where Doomsday was this faceless robot, much more menacing.

And say what you will about all comic book movies ending in massive destruction porn (a valid complaint), but at least in Marvel movies, I can tell what's going on.  This fight was at night, in the rain, edited to hell and damn near impossible to follow.  The Avengers may have destroyed New York, but at least I could follow the action.

[Bruinsfan]

Also, the CGI on the big leviathans and the sky-cycles was impressive (even if the Chitauri themselves weren't), whereas almost everything in the final BvS fight looked like a cheap videogame. (I'll give them that the actual Batman vs. Superman fight looked great even if its narrative and underlying reasons made me gnash my teeth.) You can basically see the exact moment the $250 M budget ran out.

[Bruinsfan]

On 3/26/2016 at 6:47 PM, Kromm said:

It will be deeply ironic after generations of being fucked over in terms of being absent from DC's movies and non-animated TV if Wonder Woman turns out to be the shining star of their current shit-stained approach.

Props to Kromm for foresight/prescience. Turns out Wonder Woman's awesome turn in BvS wasn't just a fluke powered by the law of averages saying every aspect of a big tentpole movie couldn't be crappy!

Edited August 2, 2017 by Bruinsfan

[DisneyBoy]

Quote

Just to reveal Jimmy????!!!!! was CIA. He was the same dude who played Julian/Grant on Smallville.  And they KILL HIM??!!!

Oh Lord...seriously? Same actor? LOL. Poor guy can't catch a break in these Superman projects, can he?

[callie lee 29]

I'm still kinda pissed about Jimmy, but whatever, I'll deal. Jesse Eisenberg was not a good choice, because he is always Jesse Eisenberg (seriously poor General Zod, dead body fucked over by Jesse. That's just wrong.).  I actually really enjoyed Affleck as Batman, which I did. not. expect.  

Overall, I very much enjoyed the movie. I liked that it dealt with the good and bad side of Superman and Batman, although I really want someone to walk up to them both and be like "glasses and a mask are not costumes Clark and Bruce!!".  

Wonder Woman forever!!

[johntfs]

On 3/5/2017 at 10:42 PM, MarkHB said:

Zod does want to conquer the earth, until that becomes pointless (and Michael Shannon's acting at that moment is brilliant), and then he just wants to destroy humanity

That's not really true.  He pretty much wants to destroy humanity to make way to terraform Earth into a new Krypton.

Meanwhile, an appropriate knock-knock joke.

Knock-Knock

Who's there?

Not my.

Not my who?

Not my parents because they were murdered!

Yep, it's a knock-knock joke told by Batman.

[HunterHunted]

On 3/26/2017 at 9:35 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Just to reveal Jimmy????!!!!! was CIA. He was the same dude who played Julian/Grant on Smallville.  And they KILL HIM??!!! I don't care what Snyder and his ilk say that that wasn't the real Jimmy Olsen, but someone else. IMDB states he was Jimmy. And yeah, yeah, IMDB is fan edited, but in all my years of looking up to see what actors and actresses played what roles, IMDB has been accurate in telling me their roles.  The fact that he was CIA, is just another bucket of bullshit.

On 8/3/2017 at 9:32 AM, DisneyBoy said:

Oh Lord...seriously? Same actor? LOL. Poor guy can't catch a break in these Superman projects, can he?

 

I like Michael Cassidy. I thought it was bullshit that Jimmy was secretly CIA. What I've read is that Snyder says that Cassidy absolutely was playing Jimmy Olsen. 

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/jimmy-olsen’s-shocking-batman-v-superman-cameo-revealed-and-he-was-almost-played-jesse

http://ew.com/article/2016/03/25/batman-v-superman-jimmy-olsen/

I think the speculation that there is another Jimmy is just fans hoping that the "Jimmy Olsen" name was a cover.

Amy Adams is lucky we've all forgotten that she played a meteor freak who drank a Kryptonite contaminated vegetable smoothie and became a cannibal.

[Captain Carrot]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

I like Michael Cassidy. I thought it was bullshit that Jimmy was secretly CIA. What I've read is that Snyder says that Cassidy absolutely was playing Jimmy Olsen. 

Retcons aren't always a bad thing.

[Bruinsfan]

Hopefully Joss Whedon or Patty Jenkins will be down with making Jenny from Man of Steel the DCEU's analog to Jimmy Olsen.