Past Seasons Talk: Before We Traded a Cop for an Assassin, a Psycho Hacker and The Machine's Evil Twin

[FormerMod-a1]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics, current episode topics and other places for show-related talk.

 

 

Also, if you have a witty or apt subtitle, post it here and I'll change this title.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Thanks for creating this aquarian1. It's a well known fact I SUCK at witty, so I'll leave it to someone elses to come up with something.

 

After the disappointing finale this year, I went back to rewatch again the first season, and frankly no one and nothing will convince me that this past season was better than the first season. They were so intent on making it full on Sci-Fi, pretty much wanting to do away with the actual Person of Interest aspect of it, it lost some of the things that made it so great-- for me.

 

Not saying this to start a debate or to sound argumentative. Just watched, or rather rewatched the first four episodes of the first season (that's how far I got), and it saddens me that we've lost that type of plot and storytelling.

 

It's not that I don't like Sci-Fi. I do. to a point. Otherwise I wouldn't be the comic fan of Marvel and DC that I am. BUT, the show has diverged to the point where A.I. is the main focus/star, and not the people, our heroes. To watch how Reese and Finch came to learn each other and trust each other, even as Reese continued to figure out just who Finch was. All the different Persons of Interest, and how Finch or Reese related to them, which motivated them to help or to be frustrated.

 

I miss that. Maybe it's because I love procedurals, but I love the procedural feel of the first season. The emotions, gah! and performances of both Caviezel and Emerson, just about did me in. I want that back.

[Maverick]

Past Seasons:  Before We Traded a Cop for an Assassin, a Psycho Hacker and The Machine's Evil Twin

[Mars477]

The show has been on a steep, almost exponential, upward curve from season to season.  Season 1 started out shitty, and got reasonably good.  Season 2 was good and got much better (plus it had the first of the off-format episodes that have been so good in the amazing Relevance), and Season 3 has just been amazing all the way through.

[Zahdii]

For me, the show has been sliding into mediocrity.  I'm pretty sure that I'll watch next season, but I'm not sure if I'll watch the whole season.  I've been increasingly disappointed in the direction the show is taking.  There's far to little of what made the show great, and far too much of what has ruined the show for me.

[Iamsweetdee]

Heh, the episode they killed Carter was my last. While I did continue to follow forums, there was nothing that triggered a desire to start watching again. Oh well, at least I have Season 1 DVDs. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Heh, the episode they killed Carter was my last. While I did continue to follow forums, there was nothing that triggered a desire to start watching again. Oh well, at least I have Season 1 DVDs. 

 

Iamsweetdee, if nothing else, and since you love season 1, definitely check out "4C", which was a totally Reese-centric episode and Reese was the Season 1 Reese. It was AWESOME. I fucking downloaded it to my Kindle and 'puter to watch over and over again. And if CBS is smart, they'll air it again, so I can save it to my teevee.

 

I've watched that episode, like 10 times. Back-to-back-back-to-back...

[Iamsweetdee]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll look for it on demand. 

[kaygeeret]

Gosh, I do understand the Carter love as I also like the actor, but it is pretty clear to me in retrospect that the character was a limited arc, a long arc, but limited. 

 

Fusco is  part of the long term arc, but her character never could be - it was the conclusion of the HR story line.

 

Now we have Decima ,et.al. and whatever that will bring.  Also a long, tho' limited arc.

 

I think the show runners have a devilish long term plot in store and it is not like anything I can remember being hooked on.

 

The core players - Finch, Reese and Fusco(!) will stay thru the show - if the actors are on board - the rest are in for long or sometimes short story arcs that will get resolved and then something else needs to be dealt with.

 

I find it a bit fiendish that the only "normal" player left is Fusco.....don't we all need a normal player for the rest to involve/play off of/display a morality - for lack of a better term?

 

In a very weird way I am not sure I totally understand yet, this is real life.
 

[SnarkyTart]

Iamsweetdee, if nothing else, and since you love season 1, definitely check out "4C", which was a totally Reese-centric episode and Reese was the Season 1 Reese. It was AWESOME. I fucking downloaded it to my Kindle and 'puter to watch over and over again. And if CBS is smart, they'll air it again, so I can save it to my teevee.

 

I've watched that episode, like 10 times. Back-to-back-back-to-back...

I'm with ya on that one, GS.  "4C" was my favorite episode of this season, and, yes, Reese was magnificent.   More like that, please?

[GHScorpiosRule]

It figures. It just figures, that the ONE episode that I'm waiting for the network to reair, which, for me, was the BEST episode of the season, "4C", would be skipped over! Goes from all the episodes from this season, 10, 11, 12, and then one would think, 13, right? Nope. it jumps to 14, the episode when Reese returns! GAH!

[TigerLynx]

To me, the first season is still the best.  Season two was okay, but things have gone rapidly downhill in season three.

[GodsBeloved]

To me, the first season is still the best.  Season two was okay, but things have gone rapidly downhill in season three.

I would watch season 1 episodes over and over and over. Season 2 fell off a bit though it did have the great Rikers' arc. I just didn't have the same connection with the majority of the season 2 numbers that I did with season 1. Season 3 was more of the same with the numbers but Carter's murder arc was great, except the murder part LOL. I haven't been inclined to watch after The Devil's Share and at this point I don't care to even try to return to this show.

Edited July 21, 2014 by GodsBeloved

[benteen]

I've greatly enjoyed all three seasons and I'm glad they've developed these storylines.  At the same time too, I enjoy the "case of the week" episodes a lot too and hope we don't lose them.  Carter's absence though is still a void with them and with the show.

[IndependentMind]

I rewatched season 3 and I have enjoyed it tremendously. I was so sad about Carter but I was happy about Root. Two of the best episodes this season "Aletheia" and "Root Path" besides "The Crossing" were Root-centric. I loved how Root has evolved. And Amy Acker is such a great actress.

And I really enjoy Root/Shaw teaming up.

Edited July 21, 2014 by IndependentMind

[Zahdii]

I loved how Root has evolved. And Amy Acker is such a great actress.

 

Well, at least someone's having a good time.  My loathing for the Root character means that if there is too much of her in an episode I skip that episode.  I also suspect I'll never watch anything with Amy Acker in it again, because of Root.

[IndependentMind]

Well, we all have our favorites and I happen to adore both Amy and Sarah. Amy Acker seems to also be a fan favorite and favorite of both JN and GP. Amy's following goes back to "Angel" "Dollhouse" and "Alias". And she also is one of Joss Whedon's favorites. I am an "Avengers" nerd.

I also adore Taraji. But Carter is gone and I had to

learn to move on. I was in shock for a week when she was killed off. Root and Shaw were added reasons for me to stick around. And yeah, I adored Amy even more when Taraji tweeted "I fnnnn love Amy Acker."

Amy Acker's personality drew me too Root. And I love the scenes between Harold and Root. Those to me are some of the best on the show and I have also read some reviews from critics have said the same thing.

That scene where Root kidnapped Harold and Harold told her to just kill him because he will never let her have the machine was heartbreaking for both. Topnotch acting by both Michael and Amy. I always look forward to scenes between Harold and Root because they both walk away learning something from each other.

I also loved Kara Stanton.

And yes, I loved season 1 but that is all in the past. The show have to evolve as JN and GP had explained and they have also said that any of them could get killed, Nobody is safe.

Edited July 21, 2014 by IndependentMind

[FurryFury]

So, I've finally started watching the show, currently on 1x15.

I did try to watch the pilot when it aired first, but found it dreadfully boring. Alack of women (except Carter, whom I didn't really like and who was very much in the background) was the main reason, as were the seemingly procedural format, lack of humor and the age of main characters (all were over 40 - I generally find it much easier to connect with younger people, I'm 28 myself). I'd probably never give PoI another chance if I hadn't heard about them adding two females to the main cast in s3, including Amy Acker whom I really like (I'm a whedonite).

 

Anyway, my impressions. The first three episodes were hard to sit though, I had to FF quite a bit. I felt that the leads didn't interact with each other enough and the cases were very predictable. But episode 4 (the one about a serial rapist with Linda Cardellini) was awesome, and finally gave Reese a bit more characterization. After that, the ride became much smoother. By episode 9 I've finally started to like Carter, and care about Finch, even if I think his backstory is told way too slowly. Actually, this is my global complaint - the "whole picture" takes a while to get going, kinda like Fringe, I suppose (probably Abrams' influence), and I had to stop watching Fringe twice during s1. Case of the week is rarely done well on TV (Buffy, Firefly and The X-Files are probably the best exceptions) and the show feels dull and formulaic, at times. However, I see a clear momentum, and at the moment am engaged enough to go on. Plus, it's neat seeing so many familiar actors, and it's only a few episodes until Root's introduction (well, she was already introduced, but her face wasn't shown). Also, Keith Mars as a big bad!

[FurryFury]

I've gotten to season 2 (watching the premiere), and I definitely get a feeling I'm going to enjoy Root. Amy seems pretty great in the role (also, looking better than ever), although I'm scratching my head as to how they're going to justify including her in the main cast (I haven't read any spoilers after s1 except for Carter's death), considering she's in full-blown villain mode. I hope there won't be any unearned redemptions, too many of those on TV already.

 

The Machine plot is the most compelling thing about the show - crime of the week is just filler, and the plots, characters and their dynamic aren't that awesome to make these stories stick out. I've probably enjoyed only two stand-alone episodes wholly unconnected to the main arc in all of s1. Let's see if the situation changes.

Edited September 7, 2014 by FurryFury

[IndependentMind]

Sorry to burst your bubble but POI is all about redemption. All characters except Carter are morally flawed. Reese has the need to save people to atone for his past misdeeds and the same for Harold. Harold built the Machone to save relevant only to realize that irrelevant numbers also matters after seeing how many people he could have saved. JC has said this numerous times it's about redemption for Reese.

[FurryFury]

I'm not sure how thing contradicts any of my impressions. It's quite clear that redemption is the main theme of Reese's character, although I disagree that the show's all about that. I'm only in the middle of s2, but it's already clear the show is about much more than just his character and his journey. And frankly, while I do like Reese, I think that his story is pretty clichéd. Not badly written, just a retread of the stuff done many times. The Machine story, by contrast, feels much more fresh, which is why I'm interested in that, first and foremost. Also, I'm a genre fan, and there's been a dearth of good sci-fi in recent years, so the more focus on Machine (and Root, to an extent, because she seems to be intricately connected to it, theme-wise), the better for me.

 

Anyway, I've seen 10 season 2 episodes, and I feel the show's been getting much better. The stand-alones are stronger, mostly thanks to more continuous storylines, and I'm definitely interested in Donnelly's investigation of "man in a suit" (that's a really lame superhero name! Even "The Hood" is better!), and in Anne Parrisse's cold-hearted spy (although, I guess, she won't be here for long, due to her role in s1 of the awful "Following"), seeing Elias is always great (I do hope they'd let him out at some point), and I simply adore Root (how great is that her real name is Sam - a boy's name, like Fred - and she's originally from Texas - like Fred? Maybe a coincidence, but I choose to take it as a shout out). HR is the only arc I'm not too keen on, and Fusco's continual involvement with them feels contrived.

 

Re: stand-alones, I particularly enjoyed the one about an irish gangster who fell in love with the widow of the guy he had killed, it was really moving. The one with Ken Leung was fun, too, as were the couple who tried to kill each other and then reconciled (Mark Pellegrino played the husband).

[IndependentMind]

I am happy to see a new fan of the show. A lot of Amy's fans from Angel days are I think still unaware that she is on POI. I think some of those fans who attened Dragon Con a week ago and attended not only the POI panel but also the Agents of SHIELD panel will be tuning in.

[FurryFury]

I've watched Shaw's introductory episode and I think I loved it. Time certainly passed for me faster than usual during PoI episodes. I do think the writers tried a little bit too hard to show her badass-ness, but hell, tough antiheroic action girls with hidden vulnerabilities are my kryptonite, so I ate it all up and want more. It was a nice experiment to see a story from a non-Reese/Finch POV (I wonder if they'll ever do an episode from the POV of an unimportant, non-badass PoI? Like that episode from The X-Files from a monster POV). Also loved the Shaw/Root dynamic. I don't think the show passes Bechdel test very often.

 

Oh, and I particularly enjoyed the episode set in prison, with Carter interrogating Reese. That was some powerful acting from Taraji Henson! I do think she's great in the role, and is a somewhat unusual female character for TV, maybe, so I get why Carter has passionate fans. Disappointed to see Donnelly go so soon, though.

 

As predicted, they killed Kara Stanton. Curse on you, The Following! She should have lasted until season finale. IDK how I feel about the idea that Finch was the catalyst for Reese leaving CIA. Hope it won't go down in a predictable way.

[Dagny]

I did try to watch the pilot when it aired first, but found it dreadfully boring.

 

It's funny, I tried watching both POI and Fringe in the beginning and stopped both about episode 4. It wasn't until I heard great things at the end of the second season that I came back to both.

[FurryFury]

I actually dropped Fringe a few times during it run, finally stopping at the end of s4 when my favorite character died. It peaked in s2-3, imho. But they were really great - I hope PoI will reach that level of brilliance as well (only without the drop).

[KLovestoShop]

I used to brag to anyone who would listen about how great POI is, but I just can't anymore.  I maybe watched 3 or 4 complete episodes all this past season because I couldn't stand the way the show has changed.  I loved the stories about Reese saving people, how he seemed to be atoning for his past, but now, all this insanity of the machine, the lunatic new characters and the fact that the writers have pulled away from the original premise of the show has completely turned me off.  The last few episodes from this past season were a total waste and really ruined the show for me.  Unless they go back to the original premise, I'm gone.  POI had turned into pos, for me. 

[Bort]

I'm the opposite. I like the show much better now with the more serialized format and Machine mythology going on. I really had to hang on when I was watching the earlier episodes, season 1 especially, I had a hard time getting through them, I was so bored.

[ABay]

Has anyone bought the DVDs for season 3? I got the Blu-ray/DVD set and have been having trouble with the BR ones freezing my player.

[stealinghome]

I'm the opposite. I like the show much better now with the more serialized format and Machine mythology going on. I really had to hang on when I was watching the earlier episodes, season 1 especially, I had a hard time getting through them, I was so bored.

I'm the same way. I picked the show up at the end of this past season because my parents were just raving about how good it's gotten, and it really was excellent almost from start to finish in the third season. But I've also been (very slowly) making my way through the back episodes and I just have to say...yikes. I would have dropped this show within two episodes if I'd tried to watch it in S1, especially the first half, because it was just boring. I agree with FurryFury that Reese is pretty cliche--like, I do like the character and Jim Caviezel is good in the role, but Reese's story has been done to absolute death--and while I think Reese and Finch have a nice rapport, I don't go crazy for it and it wasn't enough early on to balance the blah-ness of the heavy procedural format. As the show has gotten more serialized and developed more of a mythos, imo it's gotten much better and more interesting (bringing on Shaw and Root really helped too; Amy Acker especially brings just a whole different energy to the show).

[FurryFury]

I'll chime in that I'd probably never pick the show up if I didn't hear about the new characters/direction in s3, and the built-up to that has been pretty slow so far.

 

I'm almost at the end of season 2, and while it's overall much better than s1, it's still not brilliant. I had expected more Root and more Machine, TBH... guess I'll have it in the next season, though. The HR arc takes way too much time and the stand-alones in the 2nd half are much more boring. I've just watched 2x20, about a doctor poisoned with polonium, and almost fell asleep. That was a pretty bad story, also very preachy (the show sure does like its evil bankers and corrupt cops... have there been any good bankers, really? And Carter's the only good cop left, and not for long. I was kinda pissed they killed off all the good recurring cops).

[Bort]

Oh geez, HR. The one serialized storyline the early episodes had and I found it so tedious. I was so elated when they tied a bow on it and put it away for good. Bummer to lose Carter, I did like her, but a sacrifice I was happy with once it meant HR was over.

[FurryFury]

Oh my god, the finale was awesome! I think this was the first time the show really clicked for me! Well, except for Carter's scenes - they felt like they belonged on another show, and I generally like her and Elias. But the show just outgrew the crime stuff.

I also continue to be fascinated by Root. She's the most original character on the show, imho. And now I'm intrigued by her dynamic with Finch - this has a great potential.

I'm not sure how I felt when I learned Finch locked the Machine's ability to learn... I mean, he knew this was a real AI right from the start. Stunting its development for such an ultimately trivial use as security seems... wrong. I mean, it's a goddamn AI!

Anyway, I'm really excited for s3 now. Too bad I'm swamped with work and school starts on Saturday. Gah, sleep is overrated.

Edited September 10, 2014 by FurryFury

[Bort]

Anyway, I'm really excited for s3 now. Too bad I'm swamped with work and school starts on Saturday. Gah, sleep is overrated.

I hope you find a way to catch up before season 4 begins. I'm sure you'll find a way. I love season 3, it's been my favorite so far.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, if you feel like you really liked the end of S2, I think you'll really, really like S3. Cram as much in as you can! ;)

 

I also continue to be fascinated by Root. She's the most original character on the show, imho. And now I'm intrigued by her dynamic with Finch - this has a great potential.

Not gonna lie, I find Root and Finch way more compelling than Shaw and Reese. Both Shaw and Reese need someone else to make them interesting (even if it's just the other--I actually quite like the dynamic between them in S3). Whereas Root and Finch, they're fascinating all on their own (even if fascinating often means "I want to punch him/her in the face").

 

But I think you're right that Root is probably the show's most unique character.

Edited September 10, 2014 by stealinghome

[IndependentMind]

Not gonna lie, I find Root and Finch way more compelling than Shaw and Reese. Both Shaw and Reese need someone else to make them interesting (even if it's just the other--I actually quite like the dynamic between them in S3). Whereas Root and Finch, they're fascinating all on their own (even if fascinating often means "I want to punch him/her in the face").

But I think you're right that Root is probably the show's most unique character.

 

 

Oh heck yeah! Root and Finch scenes are what I look forward to the most. They are the most compelling characters on the show. And you can tell with Amy when the scenes are with Root and Finch, she definitely takes her performance to another level. And Amy just worship Michael.

 

Though I am a SHOOT fan, I would rather see more of Finch and Root than SHOOT but their scenes are always fun, so I don't mind it every now and then. 

 

But I would love to see Fusco and Root work together. I think it will be filled with crazy stuff. I will be laughing for sure.

 

And Reese and Root together, they are stunning. I can't get that gag reel out of my head. 

 

The thing about Reese and Shaw they are versions of each other. That is why they are not so interesting together.

[tessaray]

I probably wouldn't have gotten hooked on PoI this last year without Root and the AI storyline.  Procedurals get boring unless there is something else going on to keep it interesting.  And Reese doesn't interest me much.  I did like him with his psycho partner (Kara) and the fixer character (Zoey) and with Carter, even Shaw.  When he's on his own in  a scene breaking heads?  Meh. 

 

What I don't like about the direction the AI story has taken isn't so much the clash between the Machine and Samaritan but the cheesy "Clash of the Gods" dialog - it's too over the top. 

[FurryFury]

I've managed to find the time (Red Bull ftw!) and just finished "The Crossing". It was a powerful episode, and left me with a few thoughts. So, season 3 01 - 09:

- Root continues to be the most compelling part of the show, and the Root/Finch relationship is just golden. No, wait, platinum. It's really rare to find a completely platonic relationship that's so layered, deep and unique. Both characters are great on their own, but together, it's magic. Also, it's clear both Acker and Emerson give their scenes their best, and it shows the sides of both Root and Finch that aren't revealed at other times. However, I'm a bit afraid this dynamic won't evolve or be explored in detail. I hope I'm wrong, though.

- At the start of the show, I never expected Reese to become so... irrelevant. He still seems to do a lot, but his character development just stopped, and he's now mainly a plot device. Maybe Carter's death will change this, but right now, it's a pity. I don't find Reese the most interesting character, true, but I still like him. I hope the writers will invent a new direction for him.

- I was never Carter's biggest fan, but I loved her development after Beecher's death. A heroic character sliding down and becoming grey is always great when done well, and while it wasn't anywhere near, say, Wesley Wyndham-Pryce, I still enjoyed it a lot. But from a narrative standpoint, I absolutely get it. She was way too disconnected from the main part of the cast. PoI isn't just a vigilante show anymore, so getting rid of the police angle seems wise.

- On the subject of her death... The actual episode was good, but the death itself was telegraphed way too strongly. I mean, my husband, who doesn't watch the show, saw about two minutes of her flashbacks and her talking to her ex-husband (who, incidentally, I thought was strongly implied to be dead back in s1) and her son and asked me if that woman was going to bite it. I mean, we're both pretty genre savvy, but still.

- Also, the kiss... Seriously? I think I've read it was improvised, but it doesn't make a lick of sense. In fact, I appreciate it that there isn't any romance between the main cast of the show. Not many writers can write romance well, and even less manage to understand their shortcomings and avoid shoehorning a forced love story. I think of all the dramas I watch, there is no couple I actually love. One I kinda like, few I tolerate, quite a bit I hate, that's it. Also, thereare no relationships on the show i could imagine turning romantic. I really appreciate Shaw and Reese being kinda big brother/bratty little sister. It comes off really believable to me.

- Overall, I already like s3 more than the previous two, but the show still hasn't quite reached its potential, imo.

Edited September 12, 2014 by FurryFury

[stealinghome]

oooh, FurryFury, you're in for a treat with the next episode. 3x10 is awesome.

[IndependentMind]

I would say that kiss was to pacify the Careese shippers. I was a Careese shipper before and it was painful because it was like "Yeah, the finally kissed and only for the show to kill her off." But I got over it. I saw that the show was moving in a direction that would only require either Carter or Fusco going into season 4 to be their ally in the police force. Plus, Carter's death had more impact than if it was Fusco who died. 

 

Season 4 from what I have seen so far from BTS seems to be more involved than he was before. Although most Carter fans continue to blame Shaw or Sarah for Carter's demise, my theory is that it was either Fusco or Carter. 

[FurryFury]

Dang, stealinghome, I won't get any sleep after your comment, again! (it's almost midnight here)

Re: Carter/Fusco, I'd probably prefer it if Fusco bit it, TBH. He was barely present so far in s3, and he was usually used as comic relief before that (and Shaw, and even Reese, can be quite funny as well). She did kinda require more screen time, though.

[IndependentMind]

But if you have Carter, Root and Shaw, that is too many females for CBS. lol

[GHScorpiosRule]

That kiss was, in my very honest opinion, Jim kissing Taraji goodbye; was totally unscripted; he told her he was going to do something and asked her to go with it. It had nothing to do with Reese having any latent or unrequited romantic feelings for Carter.

 

The show never even went there. It was totally out of nowhere and had me going What the Fuck? 

 

Just count me in the minority as loving Season 1 and thinking that was the best season, because I don't give two, three, whatever figgety fucks about Shaw OR Root, and hate Root with a passion. And find Shaw so unnecessary.

[ABay]

Furryfury, I agree with a lot of your post, especially the part about the ridiculous kiss and appreciating the lack of romances on the series. But I wanted to quibble (just a little) with your comment about Reese. Although his time on screen (and Finch's, too) has been shortened for the sake of adding new characters, he's not irrelevant. He's become the glue that holds the group together, imo. He's the one Harold has the closest bond with and has known the longest, he's the one who press-ganged Fusco into what has become his redemption, and he and Shaw understand each other and he's the model she can use in her own redemption arc. Root is the only one he doesn't have a close relationship with, but that will come (preferably without stupid 'shipping). He's also the one who keeps Zoe helping them.

Edited September 12, 2014 by ABay

[immortalfrieza]

Re: Carter/Fusco, I'd probably prefer it if Fusco bit it, TBH. He was barely present so far in s3, and he was usually used as comic relief before that (and Shaw, and even Reese, can be quite funny as well). She did kinda require more screen time, though.

I would prefer if Fusco got killed instead too. He may be fun, but he's functioned largely as a comic relief character that rarely really contributed to the plot of any given episode and not in any way Carter couldn't do and better besides. I did see Carter's death coming a mile away though, she was the only other expendable character of Team Machine besides Fusco and they went way too far trying to convince everybody that Fusco was going to be the one to die. I just wish they found a better and more effective way of killing her off that couldn't have been easily avoided if The Machine talked to somebody besides Root as they actually did, such as having her die in a heroic sacrifice or something.

 

The Machine has been a constant source of fridge logic for me to the point I made a thread for discussing the thing, but Carter's death was the point I simply couldn't ignore all the nagging inconsistencies and stupidity regarding it and it's actions anymore.

[FurryFury]

But if you have Carter, Root and Shaw, that is too many females for CBS. lol

 

Haha, I don't watch many shows on CBS (I think it's only Elementary and The Mentalist, and I only binge-watched the latter pretty recently), but I think I get what you're saying.

 

That kiss was, in my very honest opinion, Jim kissing Taraji goodbye;

 

Truthfully, I don't think that kind of stuff should ever be present on-screen in dramas. I'm a big believer in author's vision, and I never got that kiss as a part of the original script, even if I didn't know it was a "throw it in" moment initiated by the actors. I actually loved their platonic relationship, even if it was kinda forgotten after s1 and not explored enough (imo), and kiss felt simply... wrong.

 

Although his time on screen (and Finch's, too) has been shortened for the sake of adding new characters, he's not irrelevant. He's become the glue that holds the group together, imo. He's the one Harold has the closest bond with and has known the longest, he's the one who press-ganged Fusco into what has become his redemption, and he and Shaw understand each other and he's the model she can use in her own redemption arc.

 

This may be so, but it kinda feels that starting in s2, his exploration and development have stopped to a halt. He's just... there. I've watched the whole show in a short time, and I vividly remember some s1 episodes (probably the best ones of that season) that really laid his character bare, and it doesn't happen anymore. I really appreciate the show becoming more ensemble, but right now, it seems that everyone else has a purpose, except him.

 

Or it used to be this way, because I've just watched 3x10, and it was probably the best episode of the show so far, or close to it. It was definitely its highest point when it comes to characterization, however, especially for Finch and Fusco (Reese's reaction was just too predictable, although I still liked it). My favorite moment was probably realizing Finch really did have a God complex all along, and I've never noticed that. It just made so much sense and made me appreciate his character on a wholly different level. 

 

Another great moment was the Simmons/Fusco scene. I actually expected Fusco to shoot Simmons, and for him to end it the way he did was a terrific character development and a real tribute to Carter. I usually hate it when a villain kills another villain so the heroes get to keep their hands clean, but this time, it worked OK. It actually added a bit to Elias and was in character for his affably evil persona. I truly enjoy Enrico Colantoni in this role, it's hard to remember at times he was Keith Mars (a big Veronica Mars fan here).

 

The only thing I'm a bit iffy on is Shaw being a doctor originally. It just came out of the blue. For a moment I thought it was her cover or something. I also think Shaw's mental disorder is a bit inconsistent from one episode to another, which is a shame, because it's a pretty interesting condition by itself.

[stealinghome]

I think especially once Carter was killed, Reese ran(/still runs) into the problem of being the "normal guy"* on the show. The only other "normal" character is Fusco, and he's usually used for comic relief and in a much more secondary role; Harold, Root, and Shaw all have qualities that set them apart from your everyday person and ask them to face certain problems unique to them, but Reese is very much the closest thing the show has to an everyman. Which gives him a certain disadvantage in some respects, and (imo) the show hasn't done a whole lot to make him compelling outside of being the everyman. Like, I like Reese, but I find him the least engaging out of the principals. I am hopeful, however, that S4 shakes things up a bit, particularly in the Finch/Reese dynamic (which has contributed somewhat to the stagnancy of the Reese character imo).

 

*Insofar as any of the main characters are "normal"--you know what I mean!

 

But if you have Carter, Root and Shaw, that is too many females for CBS. lol

Not gonna lie, there really is part of me that suspects that someone somewhere went "we're gonna have as many female characters as male characters? CAN'T HAVE THAT!"

 

But really, I think they killed off Carter precisely because her death was more meaningful than Fusco's. Killing Fusco would've been barely a blip on the show's radar, really...killing Carter was a much bigger shake-up.

 

I also think Shaw's mental disorder is a bit inconsistent from one episode to another

I like Shaw a lot, but I agree with this--it seems to me that the members of the writing team aren't all on the same page in terms of how/how much her disorder affects her. Though I do think they evened out a bit in the second half of S3.

Edited September 12, 2014 by stealinghome

[ABay]

I think you've got it, stealinghome, Reese has become the Everyman. I think the scene in DC where Finch, Reese, and Shaw are debating what they think the Machine wants them to do and whether they should, illustrates that. Reese is the middle path

 

I was going to call him the straight man in my post because he serves an essential but under-appreciated role that lets the others shine. Summing up: His big character arc is done, until they find him another, but his purpose goes on.

Edited September 12, 2014 by ABay

[tessaray]

 

- Also, the kiss... Seriously? I think I've read it was improvised, but it doesn't make a lick of sense. In fact, I appreciate it that there isn't any romance between the main cast of the show.

 

It made sense to me.  Carter was the cop who helped him when he was down and out.  She was a good cop but also ethical and empathetic and I think he put her on a pedestal until the very last second when time ran out... (If I didn't buy the kiss, then I couldn't buy the devastation that followed either.)  YMMV.

[GHScorpiosRule]

It made sense to me.  Carter was the cop who helped him when he was down and out.  She was a good cop but also ethical and empathetic and I think he put her on a pedestal until the very last second when time ran out... (If I didn't buy the kiss, then I couldn't buy the devastation that followed either.)  YMMV.

 

 

I couldn't disagree more.  It was FINCH who helped Reese out; who saved him; gave him a purpose, something Reese told not only Finch, but the audience. Do I think Reese admired Carter? Yes. That he thought of her as the only honest cop? Well, that's what the showrunners showed us, so yeah.  She was down a path for revenge for her cop boyfriend, who was murdered by HR...

 

That said, I didn't buy Reese's depth of grief and devastation because it didn't make sense. Caviezel did an amazing job, but I didn't buy it. Not to the extent that he grieved. And yes, I know this is an unpopular opinion.  And that's all I'll say because most here, who are from TWoP, know where I stand and I don't feel like rehashing it over again. It was a writing fail, and I blame Nolan and Plageman for letting Caviezel go off script and do it.

[ABay]

It was FINCH who helped Reese out; who saved him; gave him a purpose, something Reese told not only Finch, but the audience.

Sing it! That's exactly what I thought as the words came out of his mouth.