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S01.E01: I/O

Stinger97

By Stinger97
in Halt And Catch Fire [V]

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renatae

renatae

Can someone explain to me what Joe's master plan is?  Because it sounded like he called up his old boss at IBM, said "hey, Cardiff Electronics just reverse-engineered your BIOS, bye!", and then had some elaborate plan ready to set into motion to avert legal catastrophe... but I'm not sure how his plan does that.  It doesn't make sense.

 

Rewatching this, this time somewhat more awake. It seems they are going to try to float the idea that Cardiff has been working on a computer for some time now, and that Joe and Gordon were not at all part of that effort, therefore whatever technology is put forth was arrived at by independent research, not as a result of poaching by Joe.  Enter Cameron.

green

green

(edited)

renatae wrote above:

 

"I agree, this wasn't set up terrifically well, and reading your recap of the era makes me want to stand up and cheer the heroes of the time, who brought the computer age into our homes and every day lives. Yay!!!

 

However, I am a little confused, since both Microsoft and Apple, among others, were mentioned, by Geek Girl I think, the diversification had already begun, so I'm not sure how the new collaboration is supposed to be cutting edge."

 

You do NOT want diversification, you want multiple companies getting to build computers for the SAME platform so the Word document you wrote can be read by your boss at work and your neighbor across the street.  That couldn't happen 99% of the time before this moment.  For one thing neither you nor your neighbor could probably afford your own home computer until this hardware competition drove prices into the ditch.  And the other is that if your neighbor was a geek with an outlier brand like Sun he could never ever read a document produced on a IBM computer and vice versa.   

 

Two FEW hardware (computer) options (companies).  Too many different operating systems turning computer crosstalk into the tower of babble.

 

Cloning the PC by Compaq reversed tat.  it meant anyone could then reverse engineer it too and multiple companies sprang up building there own PC hardware but using the same operating IBM style computers could use.  To wit DOS (and later Windows).  The reason for this is that Bill Gates never sold the operating system to IBM.  He leased it to them retaining full ownership for himself and they could think of no reason to object because they couldn't see the PC clone revolution coming.

 

So hardware competition drives prices way down so most people can now own a computer AND a computer that can talk to their neighbor's computer because Gates happily leased his OS (DOS, later Windows) to anyone waving money in his face

 

Anyway having the SAME operating system -- an operating system is the code that allows the hardware electronics to "use" (process) software from Word to the PC version of Angry Birds -- meant software that was designed for IBM could be used now on ALL the PC clones out there.  Until then you had to buy programs specific to a hardware platform since Word wouldn't run on any other hardware but the IBM platform for example.  And software was really really expensive then because of that.  That made early personal computers more a novelty for the rich and a arcane hobby for geeks who often built computers out of "build it yourself" kits.

 

But after the PC clone EVERYTHING changed forever and you could actually use computers for all kinds of stuff and share via floppies which lead to finding a better way to share then hand carrying disks around which jump started the internet.

Edited by Stinger97
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  • Love 2
green

green

(edited)

The people who found main dude smarmy are right according to a review  I read.  Reviewer said the writers basically took the two Apple Steves and inserted their personalities into the PC clone story.  Lazy writers, heh.

 

But yeah there was no one in the industry more smarmy then Jobs.  He sold himself and Apple as the young, hip, cool, new age unicorns and rainbows computer company.  Meanwhile he actually threatened to cut off child support to his own daughter if his ex didn't sign legal documents allowing him to use his daughter's name and image for his newest computer at the time -- the Lisa.  (Complete with sweetness and light ad campaign for same).  Think that was right before/after Apple II wasn't it?

 

According to several early women employees on an early PBS documentary about those years, they were "encouraged" to "mingle" with the men of the company or they would be fired.  Steve Jobs also was quoted on that documentary bragging about destroying his employees psychologically so he could re-build them in his imagine.  He wasn't going to allow them stock in the early company either but the good Steve -- Steve W -- stepped in and insisted and as a result many an early employee made mucho money.  

 

Steve W was the quiet, geek genius complete with beard and glasses so the two physical types match up a lot with these two fictional ones.  So I wonder in this fictional, transposed to Apple's competitor the PC, if it's bearded geek genius has a stand up moment to smarmy guy down the line too.  On the whole though Steve W just did his geek stuff but he did stand up that one time and it was him, not Jobs or Apple (though Jobs claimed both), that threw the free rock concert that helped put Apple on the mainstream map.

 

Jobs got away for years and even after his death still for many with a totally 180 degree version of himself as his public persona.  I wonder if the main guy turns into the complete hypocrite Jobs was.  Probably not since he has to be likeable enough to make people tune in but it will be interesting if they use some of this type of material on Jobs for smarmy guy in this series.  He obviously has inspireded them enough t ocreate this whole character based on him.  Ironic it is for his arch enemy, the PC.

Edited by green
  • Love 1
Hanahope

Hanahope

(edited)

Wrote a big post in Nostalgia about how my dad worked for Xerox and we had a home computer.  This show really brings back my memories of that era.  Yay Centipede, I loved that game!

 

I thought Cameron's hair appropriate for that time.  Reminds me of the female member of the Thompson Twins.

 

Do we think that Cardiff is essentially 'taking the place' of Compaq in the show?

Edited by Hanahope
annlaw78

annlaw78

 

Rewatching this, this time somewhat more awake. It seems they are going to try to float the idea that Cardiff has been working on a computer for some time now, and that Joe and Gordon were not at all part of that effort, therefore whatever technology is put forth was arrived at by independent research, not as a result of poaching by Joe.  Enter Cameron.

Thanks for clarifying.  I still don't see how this plan works.  Cameron was obviously hired the day of the IBM audit.  Unless Cardiff plans on actively falsifying documents and having many personnel and execs lie under oath (assuming this goes to litigation), it should be abundantly clear there was no "Secret Computer Project" in the works prior to Joe and Gordon's garage escapade.  So while I guess I can see why Joe would want to force Cardiff's hand in sanctioning the IBM cloning project, I'm not sure what was gained by his calling IBM -- seems it would have been safer just to say try to sell Cardiff on the idea, without bringing IBM down on it.

shawny

shawny

I saw a comment about Cameron's hair not quite fitting with the time.  It didn't work for me at first either, but then I remembered my babysitter who tried to copy the Pat Benatar look when it was really popular in the early 80s.  It looked great when she first walked out of the salon, but it ended up looking like Cameron's hair because she didn't know how to style it. 

 

It's kind of like the Pat Benatar wannabe look from Fast Times at Ridgemont High- http://91.207.61.14/m/uploads/v_p_images/1982/01/2764_12_screenshot.png

 

scowl

scowl

 

You do NOT want diversification, you want multiple companies getting to build computers for the SAME platform so the Word document you wrote can be read by your boss at work and your neighbor across the street.  That couldn't happen 99% of the time before this moment.

 

I don't grok this example. Back then there was no Microsoft Word on the IBM PC and if there had been, a common platform solved nothing. For example we had WordStar and WordPerfect, two incompatible word processing applications that ran on DOS. These were far more common on PC's than Word.

 

Until then you had to buy programs specific to a hardware platform since Word wouldn't run on any other hardware but the IBM platform for example.

 

That isn't true. Microsoft Word originally ran on Microsoft's own version of Unix called Xenix which I used at school at the time. Microsoft had to port it to DOS after the IBM PC came out. Through the years Microsoft proceeded to port it to just about every popular non-PC platform around including the Mac, the Atari ST, and even more versions of Unix like SCO. Microsoft fully supported the Mac platform all through the 80's even as the PC clones took over the market. 

 

Back then it wasn't common to pass around word processing documents in proprietary formats. We all sent each other boring text in boring ASCII and that continued well into the 1990's. 

green

green

I don't grok this example. Back then there was no Microsoft Word on the IBM PC and if there had been, a common platform solved nothing. For example we had WordStar and WordPerfect, two incompatible word processing applications that ran on DOS. These were far more common on PC's than Word.

 

 

That isn't true. Microsoft Word originally ran on Microsoft's own version of Unix called Xenix which I used at school at the time. Microsoft had to port it to DOS after the IBM PC came out. Through the years Microsoft proceeded to port it to just about every popular non-PC platform around including the Mac, the Atari ST, and even more versions of Unix like SCO. Microsoft fully supported the Mac platform all through the 80's even as the PC clones took over the market. 

 

Back then it wasn't common to pass around word processing documents in proprietary formats. We all sent each other boring text in boring ASCII and that continued well into the 1990's. 

 

I didn't say Word would be the one and only word processing program..  Quite the contrary, having a PC platform opened up competition among software companies because it was now economically viable to develop software because their was a larger market to sell it too.  Word Perfect is a perfect example.  It was more popular then Word for several years.  Thus competition and innovation on the PC side of the aisle.

 

Meanwhile Apple having a Word version of it's own was still way down the line in the early 80's.  The reason Apple finally allowed software NOT it's own on it's platform was because of the major competition PCs had become in the personal consumer market.  Originally IBM had real no idea what to do with a PC outside the office environment so the opening up of their platform to tons of companies/people who did know what to do with it forced Apple's hand.  Nothing else would have since there was zero love lost between Jobs and Gates back in the day.

 

The fact you had to pass around ASCII documents in the 80's just proves further the importance of the PC revolution.  That revolution began in the 80's but flowered in the 90's.  Time factor is a necessity in this.  And the 90's is when non techies (98% of us) could first start using home computers with some degree of mastery.  You have to get through the era of the crappy techno-babble stuff and mind numbing manuals that no one outside of the techie outliers of society could possibly understand before a new device can truly catch on.

meep.meep

meep.meep

"That sex scene between "Always be Closing"-Lite and Computer Grrrrl was a little annoying in that it seemed to be a blatant attempt at selling sex early on in the program to keep the audience from switching off, but I know that they do what they have to do."

 

I was 25 in 1980.  And I worked in deepest darkest Silicon Valley, in high tech.  At the risk of being branded as a total slut, that sex scene seemed pretty in line with what I experienced.  After the late 60's and before AIDS, people had lots of casual sex.

 

The hair, not so accurate.

  • Love 1
Jamoche

Jamoche

The reason Apple finally allowed software NOT it's own on it's platform was because of the major competition PCs had become in the personal consumer market.

I'd say you were mixing Apples and Macintoshes here except that was never true for Macs either - the Apple ][ was a hobbyist computer, and always open to other software and hardware - it was the vast proliferation of hardware add-ons that made Jobs want the original Mac to come in exactly one variety, and if you've ever dealt with driver issues on a PC you'd sympathize (not saying it was the right solution to that problem, just that you'd sympathize :) ).

 

And Apple was pushing Mac development at college campuses in early 1984. I've still got copies of the original Inside Macintosh series - 6 volumes detailing everything you'd need to do to to write Mac apps - and I remember having a looseleaf version of volume 1 in 1984; Apple was so eager to get developers working, we had pre-release copies of it that they'd send out updates to (oh, you kids with your dynamic web content, get off my lawn).

 

(If you talked about first-gen iPhones you might have a point. You'd also be two decades past this show.)

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ganesh

ganesh

I was pleasantly surprised with this. I wasn't expecting Joe was spinning all these wheels to get his 'plan' in place and I liked that the company was forced to go along with it.

 

I'm glad they got 'on board' with the plot of the show after only one episode. I was thinking they were going to draaaagg it out with Gordon and his wife. I also liked that smarmy Joe was legit in his praise of Gordon's work. He clearly studied that article, and I thought his 'ahead of the time' comment was genuine. 

 

The dialogue was a little hacky, but eh. Especially, The Men Yelling. It's a summer show I can roll with. 

 

I'm just a little too young for the era. My first computer was an Apple IIc whenever they came out. My elementary school did have Apple II+? I think. I also think my cousin had a Commodore. I do recall when the PC cloning was all over the news though. 

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

Thanks for clarifying.  I still don't see how this plan works.  Cameron was obviously hired the day of the IBM audit.  Unless Cardiff plans on actively falsifying documents and having many personnel and execs lie under oath (assuming this goes to litigation), it should be abundantly clear there was no "Secret Computer Project" in the works prior to Joe and Gordon's garage escapade.  So while I guess I can see why Joe would want to force Cardiff's hand in sanctioning the IBM cloning project, I'm not sure what was gained by his calling IBM -- seems it would have been safer just to say try to sell Cardiff on the idea, without bringing IBM down on it.

Yea it didn't make a lot of sense to me either. I mean if Cardiff's lawyer was basically instructing Cameron to make false statements, and potentially commit perjury, why did they need her at all? Why not just pull some existing Cardiff engineers and get them to do it, since getting someone who already has a job and is loyal to teh company would probably be easier. By the way everytime I hear Cameron talk she sounds like Cobie Smulders. 

 

From what I can remember from a documentary I watched like 10 years ago, the real way the IBM PC was cloned was a lot more air tight legally, since they basically did like a double blind research study, with one group being like the bearded dude and figuring out what the IBM does, then another group, completely separate from the first figuring out how to make a computer that can do the exact same thing. 

green

green

(edited)

^  That is what the hiring of the young woman is suppose to be I think.  The "second group" that then builds the clone.  Someone not accidentally (legally) "tainted" with what the first group knew/did thus an outsider.  Which I think they do to show that "anyone" can build an IBM off-the-shelf clone thus IBM's patent stuff is nonsense.  Something vaguely like that.  But in this show you don't need no stinking second "group" when you have Wonder Woman who can do it in her sleep.

Edited by green
Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

^  That is what the hiring of the young woman is suppose to be I think.  The "second group" that then builds the clone.  Someone not accidentally (legally) "tainted" with what the first group knew/did thus an outsider.  Which I think they do to show that "anyone" can build an IBM off-the-shelf clone thus IBM's patent stuff is nonsense.  Something vaguely like that.  But in this show you don't need no stinking second "group" when you have Wonder Woman who can do it in her sleep.

Then I thought they could have been more clear with that. I mean I think what they wanted to say was that she was the only one that could do it, but apart from her talking better in her class there was nothing to show that she was a better computer engineer than anyone else at the company. And if you are just going to lie anyways why not get someone closer to you rather than this imitation Robin Sparkles. 

 

I sort of got what they said about the patent. The only thing IBM had the patent on was the chip. Beard guy just figured out what the chip did, and I think Cameron's job is to design a chip from scratch that can do the exact same things. As long as it is not a direct copy and doesn't do the same things the same way then it does not infringe on the patent. Also aren't patent documents public domain, so couldn't the two guys have just looked up the patent filings for the IBM chip and then made some changes and called it an all new computer?

ganesh

ganesh

No, they wanted the assembly language on the chip; i.e., what was in the big binder that they printed out in the garage. That's what's patented, and if it's proprietary, it might not be publicly disclosed. 

The gist is, if some computer genius came up with the code all on their own, w/o even looking at the IBM material, then they can clone it. Figuring, I think, the odds of exactly replicating 65000 lines of code is near zero, then they can just maybe change a line or two and say it's not a violation. 

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

(edited)

No, they wanted the assembly language on the chip; i.e., what was in the big binder that they printed out in the garage. That's what's patented, and if it's proprietary, it might not be publicly disclosed. 

The gist is, if some computer genius came up with the code all on their own, w/o even looking at the IBM material, then they can clone it. Figuring, I think, the odds of exactly replicating 65000 lines of code is near zero, then they can just maybe change a line or two and say it's not a violation. 

I think I got that. The thing with the lights was essentially figuring out what the code did right? So to put it very simply, if you could figure out how to make the lights do the same thing on your own, with your own unique code, it wasn't a violation of the patent. I guess I don't know enough about patents because I thought when you filed one, you basically had to disclose everything about how your invention worked, because that was the only way to prove that it hadn't already been invented. And once you did that all of that information became public domain (although protected by your patent). Although I suppose it could be some weird mix of patent and copyright (if it is code) that I can't really figure out because I am not a law talking guy.

Edited by Kel Varnsen
green

green

(edited)

I think I got that. The thing with the lights was essentially figuring out what the code did right? So to put it very simply, if you could figure out how to make the lights do the same thing on your own, with your own unique code, it wasn't a violation of the patent. I guess I don't know enough about patents because I thought when you filed one, you basically had to disclose everything about how your invention worked, because that was the only way to prove that it hadn't already been invented. And once you did that all of that information became public domain (although protected by your patent).

 

No, patents don't "out" the secrets to the public domain at all.  If it did the China hackers would be out of work immediately.  And you just gave Coca-Cola a near attack at your even suggesting that, hah.

 

The thing with the lights was measuring the voltage output on the legs of the chip to decode the binary output of each of the legs.  Binary code (just 1's and 0's - on and off basically) was then converted into Hex code which was what was printed in the binder.  Hex is a base 16 number system switching to the letter A for 10 through 15 = F.  Which makes dealing and storing the binary easier if you can believe that, hah.  (Hey it's somewhat easier then split octal anyway).

Edited by green
Glory

Glory

And if you are just going to lie anyways why not get someone closer to you rather than this imitation Robin Sparkles. 

 

I am dying here! I don't know if it was just that the actress had a strong Canadian accent or if she looks like Cobie Smulders, but I was reminded of her ANYTIME the character spoke. It was distracting.

 

Anyway, I did quite enjoy the pilot and will continue watching. I really liked the Gordon character and for the first time found Lee Pace attractive. 

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

No, patents don't "out" the secrets to the public domain at all.  If it did the China hackers would be out of work immediately.  And you just gave Coca-Cola a near attack at your even suggesting that, hah.

Unless it is different for computers I am pretty sure they do. If I invent a new toilet and patent it, my patent documents have to include designs and drawings that show exactly how it works, and what makes it different than existing designs. Those  then becomes something that is searchable so that if someone invents a new different kind of toilet, they can search the existing patents to make sure they aren't just infringing on an existing one. Why wouldn't it be different for computers?

 

For example here is some random patent filing I found when I typed IBM into the US Patent office search page which includes detailed description of how things work including drawings:

 

http://goo.gl/DfvjHX

 

Wouldn't the guys in the show have been able to look up the patent information that IBM had on their chip which would give them a ton of information?

 

As far as coca-cola goes, they don't have any kind of patents, they just use trade secrets and contracts to make sure that anyone who knows the formula is aware that if they violate their contract they can be sued back into nothing.

  • Love 1
dubbel zout

dubbel zout

(edited)
Wouldn't the guys in the show have been able to look up the patent information that IBM had on their chip which would give them a ton of information?

 

And ruin the premise of the show? ;-)

 

In all seriousness, the information in the patent might be just that—information—and physically reverse-engineering tells them how it's used in the actual machine. I think they might be allowed to keep certain information proprietary.

 

Maybe there's a patent lawyer out there who can weigh in?

Edited by dubbel zout
Syme

Syme

(edited)

Thanks for clarifying.  I still don't see how this plan works.  Cameron was obviously hired the day of the IBM audit.  Unless Cardiff plans on actively falsifying documents and having many personnel and execs lie under oath (assuming this goes to litigation), it should be abundantly clear there was no "Secret Computer Project" in the works prior to Joe and Gordon's garage escapade. 

 

Compaq errr Cardiff can not just copy the IBM BIOS code.

 

They can disassemble the BIOS, & write specs that describe in words exactly what the BIOS does.

 

Then an 'uncontaminated' person, one who has not ever looked at the IBM code, aka Cameron, can take those specs, and write a new BIOS that does exactly what the IBM one did.

 

I should add that IBM published virtually everything else so third parties could build plug-in cards with functionality IBM didn't offer.

 

It's important to know that IBM ESD/Boca Raton [home of the PC] was a rebel outfit within Big Blue. It was not in Armonk, but deliberately hours away, to avoid senior micromanagers dropping by. It used a non-IBM CPU, and a third party OS. It came about only because Don Estridge sold senior IBM Suits on the idea that the whole product line would be such small potatoes that the mandarins in HQ wouldn't notice/care.

 

So the concept/look & feel of the episode & hopefully show do have a grounding in the reality of the time. It's not woven from whole cloth.

 

 

Edited by Syme
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DrSpaceman

DrSpaceman

I thought it was good enough to keep watching, even though it felt like at times it was trying to copy it's more well-known AMC shows. Mainly, Joe reminded me way too much of Don Draper, and Gordon was almost like Walter White before he "broke bad."

 

 

 

I hadn't thought of Gordon like Walter White, but I suppose there is that element.  I did see a lot of DOn Draper in Joe.  A maverick, taking chances.  The set up is similar as well, a small company taking on big IBM at te start of the PC era.  Even his closing speech he gave in his sales pitch reminded me of a similar speech Don gives to a client in I believe the Mad Men pilot.  Plus he has disappeared for a year like Don often does, no one knew where he was. 

 

I enjoyed the pilot and I understood what they were doing, but I really wasn't following legally how they could do this with IBM knowing it was happening.  ANd I didn't understand why he went and told IBM he was doing this, I don't know what purpose that serves.  I guess it was to basically force Cardiff to move forward as they had no choice at that point, they couldn't kill the project. 

 

I think its a great topic and a good era to explore.  That speak and spell was the HEIGHT of educational toys in 1983.  Now we have Kindles that are 1000s of times more powerful than even the best PCs at the time. 

Compaq errr Cardiff can not just copy the IBM BIOS code.

 

They can disassemble the BIOS, & write specs that describe in words exactly what the BIOS does.

 

Then an 'uncontaminated' person, one who has not ever looked at the IBM code, aka Cameron, can take those specs, and write a new BIOS that does exactly what the IBM one did.

 

 

 

Thanks.....I sort of got that from the pilot, but I still find this confusing legally, but I will just accept it for the show to move on. 

Jamoche

Jamoche

You can't make an exact copy of something, but you can look at what it does and make another thing that does the same thing in a different way. Imagine doing this with an early car engine: they'd look at the outside of an internal combustion engine - gas goes in, something goes 'boom', pistons go up and down - and then turn around and make another engine that might work entirely different from the first but still has the same effect.

 

Since the patent system is supposed to protect and encourage innovation, it's working: if the original is better then the protection part is working (nobody else is profiting from it), and if the new one is better then innovation has happened. If this wasn't allowed, we'd be stuck with the Model-T engine until their patent ran out, because without competition they'd have no incentive to improve it. Of course it does happen that the tech just isn't reverse-engineerable, so then the new innovation has to wait for the patent to expire - that's why they aren't permanent. With the kind of tech that existed when the patent laws were invented, that was reasonable, but with software/hardware it will be obsolete before anyone else can use it. That's still a hot topic in tech now so I expect they'll explore it.

  • Love 2
Mertseger

Mertseger

Just caught up with the series after hearing about it last week.

 

 

The thing with the lights was measuring the voltage output on the legs of the chip to decode the binary output of each of the legs.  Binary code (just 1's and 0's - on and off basically) was then converted into Hex code which was what was printed in the binder.  Hex is a base 16 number system switching to the letter A for 10 through 15 = F.  Which makes dealing and storing the binary easier if you can believe that, hah.  (Hey it's somewhat easier then split octal anyway).

 

The lights were at least upside down since the lights for the first byte showed 1101 ("E") which he calls out as "B" (1011). But it did not make sense that he'd rig the lights anyway since he could have much easily used a digital LED to show the bytes. We had such a rig in my Physics lab at Cal in 1982 for programming a Z80. It just took a chip and an LED for each byte. But all that's moot anyway since, as previous poster said, they would have passed the the IO test of the BIOS to another board, and printed it directly.

backgroundnoise

backgroundnoise

One of my main problems is that I don't find any Joe, Gordan or Cameron likeable at this point.

 

I found them so dislikeable I quit watching and erased future episodes on DVR.  We've got

1) Entitle Big Shot thinking that getting away with something validates any action.

2) Misunderstood Genius (as his wife said), who's so morose he's practically comatose.

3) Angry female hacker who's normal response to anything is to lash out.

 

All these characters think WAY too much of themselves, as if their end justifies any means.  Perhaps that's how it happened it real life, but if even if so, it's not enjoyable to watch these characters, especially as I think I'm supposed to be rooting for them against big bad business.  No thanks.

 

Couldn't they have told this story and made at least someone likeable?

  • Love 1
annlaw78

annlaw78

 

Couldn't they have told this story and made at least someone likeable?

I had the same feeling after watching this ep -- they were really painting with broad strokes.  It gets better, and a bit more nuanced as the series goes on.  I just got around to catching up on the last few episodes, and the characters (some of them) get more interesting, and at least I have started to get a bit invested in the "project." 

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