Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[tarotx]

It gives Felicity the "watch" code name without having the "copying Chloe" argument. But imo Over Watch is what felicity does-not who she is per say. But DC has already allowed Watchtower and Oliver Queen to be endgame so it's not much movement on their part to allow an end game with Over Watch. Plus it does give the lets change it to Over Lord opportunity for fans and in show jokes.

 

I wish they went with Proxy. Felicity is the first one with a no comic related code name. I guess that makes her unique. They still are making her Oracle/Proxy though. The wheel chair, self doubt and Calculator as a nemesis.  I just wish we got Firewall, Athena or even Halo :( Oh well MG's book is the main reason it irritates me. 

[dtissagirl]

I think I'm just gonna shorten it to 'Watch, and pretend Guggie hasn't crapped all over it with his ego.

[kismet]

I still hate the name. It sounds horrible. It sounds clunky and militaristic. I just think they could have done better and something more reflective of her or her personality.

But it being the title of his book completely pushes me over the edge of ever being able to like it.

I dislike Spartan for Dig as well because I don't think it's reflective of him. But at least its a cool sounding name.

[tennisgurl]

See, I didnt even make the connection to Guggies book until I came to these boards. While watching the episode, I just thought it was a clunky, awkward sounding name. Finding out it was taken from Guggie and his massive ego just makes it worse. 

[nksarmi]

This is the best place I can think of for this question - the pending death got me thinking about who IS my favorite character on Arrow and who do I NEED to be on this show versus who can I stand to see leave.  I'm curious what other people's rankings are.  I believe mine goes as follows:

 

Oliver - He is definitely NOT my favorite character, but obviously the show needs him. I don't want to see him die at the end of the series.

 

Felicity - She might be my favorite character - not because of the ship, but I just really like the girl.  I don't know if I could keep watching if they killed her. I want to say maybe, but I like happy stories so I don't really think I could take that.  I might be able to keep watching if she left alive, but it would be hard.

 

Diggle - He is a close second for favorite character and he and Felicity might even be a tie.  I don't think I could keep watching if he died - not even a hero's death.  I would be crushed for him, Lyla, and baby Sara.  I think I could keep watching the show if he left with his family and I knew he was happy/might return in later seasons, but I do think the show would miss something without him.

 

Thea - I don't want to see her die, but I'm not so emotionally invested in her that if she left the show alive - I would stop watching.  My personal preference is at some point she and Roy marry.  This might be the one couple I truly ship lol.

 

Laurel - I wouldn't care if she died or if she left the show.  I want to like her, but the most I can muster is indifference at the moment.

 

Lance - I kind of feel the same way about him as I do about Laurel right now, which is actually an improvement - I hated his character at the end of last season.

 

Malcolm - If he counts as a regular, I will actually do a happy dance when he dies.

[wonderwall]

For me it'll be:

 

Oliver - Lol, regardless of how many stupid ass mistakes he's made, I still love him. Oliver is a dumbass, no doubt, but he is a dumbass who is still learning and faces the consequences of his mistakes without complaining. He deals with his issues without saying "woe is me". He has been beaten down so hard but still manages to wantto be a beacon of hope for his city. He is so messed up but he still loves intensely no matter how misguided that love might be. He's an idiot. But Oliver is the sun, and the show revolves around him. 

 

Felicity - She is possibly one of my most favorite characters on television, period. So not only would killing her off make me rage quit, but I'd probably swear off all Berlanti productions in the future (that's how petty I am). With everything that Felicity brings to the show, I don't think I'd like the direction Arrow would take if she were to ever leave. It just wouldn't be fun for me anymore. Felicity helps give us Oliver's point of view and helps us see Oliver in a different, more relatable light. She is the heart of the show.

 

Diggle - It's funny how silent Diggle's character is but still manages to impact the show in a great way. Arrow wouldn't be the same without him, and I'd quit the show if he died. He made part of OTA, he gives the show a sense of maturity, he is part of what keeps the show grounded, his relationship with Oliver is one of the most healthy relationships on the show. He's the character we need and deserve. If Felicity is the heart of the show, Diggle is the glue that keeps it together. 

 

Thea - I honestly don't want Thea to die at all. While I'm not emotionally invested in her arc, I'm emotionally invested in her relationship with Oliver (Which, btw, WHY THE HELL HAS SHE NOT BEEN INTERACTING WITH OLIVER AT ALL THIS SEASON?!) Thea has a lot of potential, we haven't even SEEN her interact with the other core members of the team, which is such a shame. If she were to die, I'd be upset for all the lost potential, but I also won't quit. It'd probably make me more bitter towards the character who should've died tbh. 

 

Laurel - I will literally scream at the top of my lungs in pure joy if she dies. Yay! The most useless member of the team who is also shoehorned in so HARD is gone! I honestly think the writers trying to shoehorn Laurel into the team is why we don't get more Felicity/Diggle interactions and why we don't get more Thea/Oliver and Thea/Felicity interactions. Plus, I'd love to see AyChihuahua eat that hat of hers like she promised. 

 

Quentin - I'd be disappointed if he dies. He's been such a non-entity this season that his death would be so anti-climactic. Not to mention his interactions have been limited throughout the entire series. I'd like to see him interact more with the team and not just Laurel, who his scenes are wasted on because of the petty and eye roll worthy Lance family drama. I'd like the show to actually TRY to integrate him more into the show before killing him off. Again, I won't quit the show if he dies, but I'd be disappointed with the lost potential. 

 

Malcolm - Lol he wont' die this season. But I can only hope he dies in S5. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

Laurel - I will literally scream at the top of my lungs in pure joy if she dies. Yay! The most useless member of the team who is also shoehorned in so HARD is gone! I honestly think the writers trying to shoehorn Laurel into the team is why we don't get more Felicity/Diggle interactions and why we don't get more Thea/Oliver and Thea/Felicity interactions. Plus, I'd love to see AyChihuahua eat that hat of hers like she promised. 

Hey now, I said it was a metaphorical hat! I believe I mentioned a nice Beef Wellington!

[rtalive]

I found the whole grave story-line really cheap and disturbing. Just another way to divide fans, because everybody has different favorite character. I think killing someone just to make the story interesting shows how little creativity writers have.

I realize that sometimes character  die in a heroes series but i like it when their death has meaning and a deep consequence for the future and development of the other characters.

The way they killed Amanda Waller was really disturbing. She was very powerful and important character for Oliver's development into street vigilante and they killed her with a shot in the head from a character who was just introduced and who kind of said - ok, you are useless you must go. This is totally not the death she deserved. The same I can say about Sara in s3. They killed her very disturbing , again you are useless now because we are making another character take your place. But it was for cheap plot device, which could have been written differently and still have the same result of the league against Arrow and Laurel turning into BC. They didn't killed Roy just so Thea to take his costume, thanks god for that. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I continue to be extremely bitter about the poor quality of stunts. Although Roy's parkouring looked as awesome and nonsensical as ever, I thought Oliver looked cumbersome and sloppy in comparison. He used to look really graceful and effortless. I think it's the fullness of his stubble weighing him down--dude is sporting a full-on beard now. Thankfully, SA's recent workout video showed his stubble appropriately thinned out again.

 

Also, it's so stupid that the masks always jump down and land behind a stack of crates, so that their landing is always obscured. The shot totally loses momentum when we have to wait for them to find their way out from behind crates or whatever.  And another thing, if the scene doesn't allow enough time for Oliver to fight multiple bad guys so that he has to take them all down at once by twirling and knocking them out by whacking their waists with his bow, then he should only fight one or two in an impressive display of brawling. I might be a fangirl, but I'm not that easily impressed. [eye roll]

[Chaser]

They look like they are jumping down in slow motion, like they float. It's super distracting.

[EmeraldArcher]

Yeah, but BC actually had a decent jump/landing in 4x12 when the camera followed her all the way down and she landed ready to fight.

 

Dammit, I can't believe I just posted that. Bitterness just increased.

[lexicon]

Okay this may be petty but ... Thea lands in the hospital (yet again) and in the very next scene we see Oliver at her bedside but Felicity lands in the hospital for weeks, gets paralysed, has potentially life altering surgery and finds out that her status may be permanent and Oliver not only refuses to see her before that surgery, he walks away and leaves her to find out that the surgery didn't work, alone. I'm not sure who I'm more angry at - Oliver for behaving like an idiot in show or the writers for not giving me a traumatised Oliver at Felicity's bedside while she was hurt scene, either way I'm bitter as hell. 

 

Also bitter at any suggestion that Oliver has been going back and forth to CC to see the spawn. Another wtf moment, FB Oliver telling Poppy that he lied to her and KILLED HER BROTHER while continuing to lie to Felicity about fathering a child years before he met her. Does not compute.

 

Forever bitter at the need to regurgitate tired plots that fell flat the first time. Thea at death's door again? Sorry, it lost its impact after the first or second time. Somebody wants to order/manipulate Oliver to kill the current Ra's so that they can take over the LOA? Wasn't fun when it happened last season. Oliver is going to stupidly trust MM when it would make more sense to gut him where he stands? That is brand new information and in no way related to what happened last year.

 

Come on Arrow you're better than that. Or at least I desperately hope you are.

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm having the same problem with this show I started having with Smallville. I came to detest Chloe and how they shoehorned her in and people were wanting her with Clark and how she was really Lois, blah blah. And then to have her end up marrying Oliver and having a kid. Ugh. That's how I feel about Felicity. I don't get what people think is so great about her.

[HighHopes]

At this point I don't know how they can have Oliver and Felicity end up together. Oliver just continues to lie to her, and hopes for the best that she will forgive him and everything will be fine and dandy again. He can't visit Felicity in the hospital, but he can zip back and forth between Central City to visit his kid. A kid that he is still not telling his fiancee about. His fiancee who was jut recently paralyzed and I assume still adjusting to all of it. Diggle in the beginning of the season said that Oliver doesn't trust and he doesn't love, and IMO that's true. Oliver thinks he knows what love is, and he thinks he does, but none of his actions back this up imo. I just can't figure out how Felicity will forgive Oliver for this after months of lying to her, especially after she agreed to marry him.  

 

I hope this season ends with them still apart, and Oliver actually learning for once that his terrible actions have real consequences and that he won't always be forgiven for them. 

[AyChihuahua]

It's interesting, because at least on Twitter a lot of people just want to get the breakup over so they'll get back together. But the breakup is based on real character traits and wrongs, it's not just checking a box. There are really good reasons for it, that don't somehow self-extinguish once the breakup happens. I know that they'll inevitably be written back together, although maybe not until S5, but I don't see how it can be believable. The actors' chemistry is awesome, but man, Oliver really needs to be alone for awhile and work on himself, and I just don't see how she could ever trust him again.

[apinknightmare]

It'd be believable to me. Oliver is an emotional moron and has always been willing to abide by whatever terms someone offers him whenever someone he loves hangs in the balance. He's fatalistic - Felicity knows this - she's helped him fight it for years. She loves him in spite of it. Assuming the lie is all there is to the breakup and it's not compounded by something else that happens, I think it's forgivable, and I don't think she'd have issues trusting him again.

[AyChihuahua]

Do I get to say it this time? Beating a dead horse. Agree to disagree. Etc.

[dtissagirl]

For me it's not even about it being believable or not -- I honestly don't care about that part anymore. I'm gonna ride this out by pointing and laughing at the gigantic plot holes, and I'll wait for O/F to get back together, either during May sweeps, or during next season's November sweeps.

 

My stance here is I'll respect a storyline and its plot points when it respects me back. This storyline offends me from a writing standpoint, more than from whatever internal logic it has [and its internal logic is from the INSANE TROLL variety, so.]

 

Very little about BM/kid and the lie is about creating character development. Sure, Oliver probably could use the lesson that lying is bad, mmmkay, but also -- that's such a juvenile lesson that goes against the kind of growing up he did in this first half of the season, that it takes me right out of the story. Because it's as clear as day to me that this is all about setting up a break-up between O/F sometime this month, because February Sweeps. So I'm choosing to look at this from a complete external mindset, from start to finish. And I'm actually better at compartmentalizing my feelings about narrative structure on serialized television than Oliver is at compartmentalizing his feelings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[wonderwall]

Is it just me or is the whole mama drama thing SO plotty that I'm willing to fast forward and overlook it? All I can hope for with this storyline is that Oliver learns his lesson about lying, which is a lesson he's never learned in his life. Oliver always resorted to lying. I hope this break up is something that makes him snap out of that stupid behavior. On the one hand this will be a frustrating batch of episodes, on the other, I'm actually kind of okay with how the writers don't want to magically fix Oliver just because he's happy. 

 

So yeah, I'm on full on ignore mode with this plotty/nonsensical storyline. 

[AyChihuahua]

For me it's not even about it being believable or not -- I honestly don't care about that part anymore. I'm gonna ride this out by pointing and laughing at the gigantic plot holes, and I'll wait for O/F to get back together, either during May sweeps, or during next season's November sweeps.

 

My stance here is I'll respect a storyline and its plot points when it respects me back. This storyline offends me from a writing standpoint, more than from whatever internal logic it has [and its internal logic is from the INSANE TROLL variety, so.]

 

Very little about BM/kid and the lie is about creating character development. Sure, Oliver probably could use the lesson that lying is bad, mmmkay, but also -- that's such a juvenile lesson that goes against the kind of growing up he did in this first half of the season, that it takes me right out of the story. Because it's as clear as day to me that this is all about setting up a break-up between O/F sometime this month, because February Sweeps. So I'm choosing to look at this from a complete external mindset, from start to finish. And I'm actually better at compartmentalizing my feelings about narrative structure on serialized television than Oliver is at compartmentalizing his feelings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's so healthy. I wish I could do it.

[calliope1975]

For me it's not even about it being believable or not -- I honestly don't care about that part anymore. I'm gonna ride this out by pointing and laughing at the gigantic plot holes, and I'll wait for O/F to get back together, either during May sweeps, or during next season's November sweeps.

 

My stance here is I'll respect a storyline and its plot points when it respects me back. This storyline offends me from a writing standpoint, more than from whatever internal logic it has [and its internal logic is from the INSANE TROLL variety, so.]

 

Very little about BM/kid and the lie is about creating character development. Sure, Oliver probably could use the lesson that lying is bad, mmmkay, but also -- that's such a juvenile lesson that goes against the kind of growing up he did in this first half of the season, that it takes me right out of the story. Because it's as clear as day to me that this is all about setting up a break-up between O/F sometime this month, because February Sweeps. So I'm choosing to look at this from a complete external mindset, from start to finish. And I'm actually better at compartmentalizing my feelings about narrative structure on serialized television than Oliver is at compartmentalizing his feelings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

You just got into my brain. I was super mad when this BMD began in the crossover, but then it's been completely ignored since then. If TPTB can't be bothered to care about their plots, then the hell if I am. I may skip an episode or two, and I still think it'll hurt like a bitch when this goes down, because I'm a Felicity fan first, but this is all such a plotty mess that I'm just going to ride it out until the resolution, which I do think will be by the end of the season.

[doesntworkonwood]

I mean character wise I'd rather they end the season with Felicity and Oliver as friends on good terms but not in a relationship, because I am a Felicity fan first and foremost. But if that doesn't happen? I'd be celebrating anyway because at least this mess of a story line would be over.

[dtissagirl]

You just got into my brain. I was super mad when this BMD began in the crossover, but then it's been completely ignored since then. If TPTB can't be bothered to care about their plots, then the hell if I am. I may skip an episode or two, and I still think it'll hurt like a bitch when this goes down, because I'm a Felicity fan first, but this is all such a plotty mess that I'm just going to ride it out until the resolution, which I do think will be by the end of the season.

 

I actually wish I could thank Steve in person for blurting out in the HVFF panel that Oliver had to lie because the writers needed it for later developments. That was SO HELPFUL in achieving zen levels of no fucks to give.

 

I mean.

 

1. HAHAHAHAHAHA OMG LITERAL LOL.

 

2. The absolute lack of follow up on the lie tells me this isn't a real storyline. Is Oliver telling rando lies to go to CC? Is he worried about the lies? Did he talk Barry into covering for him? Did Barry tell anyone else? Is Oliver freaking out that he has a kid? Is he thinking about having other kids? Did he talk to a lawyer? Is he volunteering to babysit Baby Sara every other day? Does BM know about all the shit that's happening in Star City?

 

They're going so out of their way to NOT write this story, so I'm following their cue: it's not a story. And neither BM nor demon spawn are real characters. I can't even be bothered to feel anything about BM. Because she's not real. If a block of cement told Oliver he had to lie to Felicity, it'd have the same results, except I'd be interested in how the particle accelerator explosion made a block of cement suddenly start talking.

 

And, yeah, I totally agree with you that whenever this blows over it'll hurt like hell. And I'll be here for Felicity too. But until that happens, I really can't be bothered. Because the writing sure isn't.

[hogwash]

Yup, I think pretty much everyone called it as a nonsensical reason to break up them in the future. It's been 6 episodes and they're not even pretending that there's more to it then that. It reminds me of ~I can't be with you as Oliver Queen and be the Arrow~ (which I freaking hated).  As if the same character didn't go confess his love to Laurel before OTA actually stopped the Undertaking. Most of Oliver/Felicity's S03 relationship sucked just as much as the rest of S03. Who wants to see that again? 

[apinknightmare]

 It reminds me of ~I can't be with you as Oliver Queen and be the Arrow~ (which I freaking hated).  As if the same character didn't go confess his love to Laurel before OTA actually stopped the Undertaking. 

 

Didn't he do that because he planned on not being the Hood anymore after he stopped the Undertaking? I agree the reasoning is stupid regardless, but he wasn't planning on being both with Laurel. 

[hogwash]

That's true. I tend to forget him basically turning in his two weeks notice and leaving Felicity and Diggle there. It was weird. 

[thegirlsleuth]

I think the writers really thought we'd be more sympathetic to Oliver and his choice, when the universal response has been "get a lawyer, Oliver, or if you must, lie to baby mama and tell the truth to Felicity."

I'm posting in the bitterness thread because between the secret kid storyline and the Oliver getting pulled into the League shenanigans to save Thea, I think we might be hitting a perfect storm of Oliver stupidity. And he didn't used to be a stupid guy! I can think of so many other solutions to the Thea problem, from hunting down Constantine to telling Malcolm to put his league on finding a solution since he caused the damn problem to knocking Nyssa on the head--sorry, Nyssa!--and stealing the flower. Or, and I hate to say this, he could let Thea make her own adult decisions and let her choose not to kill and let her die instead of offering himself up yet again. In the coming weeks we will see Guggenheim's worst idea of season three paired with his worst idea of season four. He's such a hack.

Bonus bitterness: I noticed that Oliver got to Thea's bedside fairly quickly, unlike Felicity. As much as Oliver is saying all the right things, his actions are not backing up his loving words, and actions always tell the true story.

[quarks]

The impression I got was that Oliver did realize he was wrong for not spending more time with Felicity when she was in the hospital, and didn't want to repeat this mistake with Thea.

 

That wasn't spelled out in the script though, so it could just be me fanwanking.

[wonderwall]

I don't really understand...

 

It was wrong for Oliver not to visit Felicity in the hospital, which yes, I agree. His usual coping methods at this point was to run away, I think we all know that.. But then he actually learns his lesson about not running away because abandoning people when they're in the hospital is "unforgivable" -- which Wendy also said is a lesson he learned that episode -- and then visits Thea in the hospital and is there for her, and he's somehow still berated?

 

Isn't it a good thing that the show is showing that Oliver learned to deal with his loved ones being in the hospital in a manner that isn't completely emotionally stunted? And that this lesson is sticking? Doesn't this bode well for when Felicity is in the hospital again in the future? He'll be by her side in an instant. 

 

I get being upset that Oliver wasn't there for Felicity in the first place. i really do, I was super upset while watching the episode, but I think that in the long run, Oliver learning from his mistake (because let's be real, he's still ridiculously damaged and Felicity knows this) is a good thing for both him and Felicity and shows a slow progression of his character instead of Oliver being instantly emotionally healthy because he's happy...

 

I'll probably get heat for this post... But it definitely didn't make me bitter to see Oliver by his sister's side while she's in a coma because it reinforces the lesson Oliver learned in 410. 

Edited February 4, 2016 by wonderwall

[lemotomato]

Moving my response to the relationships thread, since it's less bitter and more introspective

Edited February 4, 2016 by lemotomato

[thegirlsleuth]

I guess I can see your point. I feel like Oliver has never had a problem being at Thea's bedside in the past so this was not a change in behavior for him, so with Thea, it wasn't a lesson he needed to learn. I watched it at 1 am last night, so perhaps I didn't see the direct connection between the lesson he learned with Felicity.

[nksarmi]

I think it was just a matter of there was no one to go beat up and get vengeance on when it came to Thea.  I mean, his one idea - going to Darhk - got shut down.  And since it was shut down by a villain - I'm not even sure if that was the right call.  But yea, he had nothing to do so he went to be by her side.  I thought it was weird that Roy wasn't there, but since that's probably an actor thing - I'm trying to ignore it.

[apinknightmare]

But yea, he had nothing to do so he went to be by her side.  I thought it was weird that Roy wasn't there, but since that's probably an actor thing - I'm trying to ignore it.

 

I think Roy probably didn't go to the hospital because he's supposed to be dead. :)

[nksarmi]

I think Roy probably didn't go to the hospital because he's supposed to be dead. :)

 

I was thinking for plot reasons he left before she went into the comma.  After all, he could have just pulled a hood up for the hospital, right?  Or wore a hat?  That's all it takes in this town, right?

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, he could've taken off before she got worse. 

[AyChihuahua]

I was thinking for plot reasons he left before she went into the comma.  After all, he could have just pulled a hood up for the hospital, right?  Or wore a hat?  That's all it takes in this town, right?

Or no hat, and a really nice suit, in the town square (MALCOLM).

[Orion]

While I wasn't upset about Oliver learning his lesson and being there for Thea, although, I did note the difference, it does speak to a bigger issue I have with the show. It feels like the show is jumping through hoops to not include certain aspects the O/F relationship.

 

We didn't get to see Oliver and Felicity go from 2X23 to 3X01 arguably one of the most important steps in a TV relationship, especially the Friends to Lovers trope,  is the moment the characters realize they are in love to when they decide they are going to act on those feelings (cue all the questions SA, MG, and EBR get about when did Oliver fall in love with Felicity). Fine, Guggie wanted to sell his 2.5 comics so the viewers missed out on that transition. 

 

Then the viewers weren't given any scenes with Oliver telling Thea about his feelings for Felicity, then we missed out the initial domestic issues that come along with moving in with someone when they chose to play all of that out over last summer.

 

By the time we saw Oliver and Felicity in 4X01 they were already basically behaving like a couple that had been married for 5 months. 

 

We again missed the conversation that must have happened between Oliver and Thea about him wanting to marry her and getting Thea's permission for him to give Felicity Moira's ring.

 

Then in 4X09 we got a millisecond of Oliver reacting to Felicity being injury. 4X10 didn't even bother to let the viewers have the rush down the hospital corridor scene without cutting in moments of action. Oliver wasn't at her bedside, wasn't included in conversations with her doctors, wasn't there to support her before surgery, wasn't holding her hand as she slept, etc.  The moments they did have in that episode were mostly set up to send Oliver back out into the field to keep fighting. It felt very much like a deliberate choice to focus on action, action, action. "See we aren't going to make this a shipper show. We won't even slow down the plot for Felicity being paralyzed. Now the people that don't enjoy Olicity won't blame us for focusing too much on that relationship. Yay!"

 

AFor writers who love D.R.A.M.A all of that stuff should have been included unless they are trying to bury the relationship beats behind action scenes and that's where I get annoyed at Oliver for being there for Thea. She's his sister so no relationship cooties attached.

 

The writers need to pick a lane, either they are committed to having Olicity be a major plot within the show and if that is what they decide then commit to it and stop acting embassed that that they need to stop the action during certain episodes or restructure the plot where the majority of the romance happens off screen and stop asking me to read between the lines or read producers interviews to understand romantic developments (like Oliver realizing he needs to be at the bedside of people he loves).

[dtissagirl]

Oh, I'm pretty sure the EPs are forever sorta embarrased that their dudebro macho superhero show got stuck with an *insanely popular* girly romantic pairing. And they planned for angsty ~srs bzness~ soulmate-y romance, not meet-cute adorably fluffy rom-com dreamy romance.

And they can't court more of a female audience because Mark Pedowitz might kill them if that happens, so they do half-baked romance in between making sure everyone understands THIS IS AN ACTION SHOW, NEVER FORGET.

[AES13]

While I wasn't upset about Oliver learning his lesson and being there for Thea, although, I did note the difference, it does speak to a bigger issue I have with the show. It feels like the show is jumping through hoops to not include certain aspects the O/F relationship.

I completely agree and believe this points to a bigger problem.  It's not just the shippery moments that get short shrift; it's many of the emotional beats that we are missing.  It's like they cut the scene off 5 seconds too early all the time, the most egregious example being directly after Oliver pulled a wounded Felicity out of the car.  This is their big cliff hanger and they don't even let us see Oliver's reaction completely.  It's really a shame because I think I come to understand and like characters due to their emotional reactions to events so when we don't get them it's hard to care.

 

What I'm bitter about is that I used to love this show and rush here to see everyone's reaction and read lots of fanfic and anticipated what was going to happen next and dread the hiatus but then season 3 happened and although season 4 is a big improvement, the bloom is off the rose.  I still enjoy the show (most of the time and not counting the flashbacks) but it's certainly no longer a passion of mine.  :(

[AyChihuahua]

What I'm bitter about is that I used to love this show and rush here to see everyone's reaction and read lots of fanfic and anticipated what was going to happen next and dread the hiatus but then season 3 happened and although season 4 is a big improvement, the bloom is off the rose.  I still enjoy the show (most of the time and not counting the flashbacks) but it's certainly no longer a passion of mine.  :(

The ONLY thing I disagree with you about is fanfic. With some glaring exceptions (e.g., fics in which BM helps Oliver and Felicity reconcile, bc that is horseshit, that woman does not care one iota about Oliver's or Felicity's happiness), fanfic is often much, much, much better than the show. Kind of jarringly so.

Edited February 5, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

Oh, I'm pretty sure the EPs are forever sorta embarrased that their dudebro macho superhero show got stuck with an *insanely popular* girly romantic pairing. And they planned for angsty ~srs bzness~ soulmate-y romance, not meet-cute adorably fluffy rom-com dreamy romance.

And they can't court more of a female audience because Mark Pedowitz might kill them if that happens, so they do half-baked romance in between making sure everyone understands THIS IS AN ACTION SHOW, NEVER FORGET.

And this is where my bitterness also takes root. Because if they just let O&F exist as a couple in the background like they did for most of s4a, nobody would really mind. You could have your ACTION with a side of romance, a WIN-WIN. How many reviewers were pleasantly surprised by the ease & smoothness of a functional romance in 4a. No one was clamoring for more DRAMA or ANGST. Yes, we missed out on some of the more shippery moments & some of the emotional beats, but the relationship was solid and non-intrusive. However, by throwing it to the wolves with the BMD, the paralysis & whatever tropey DRAMA they can come up with just ruins the couple & it ruins the show. Can they really not think of more stories to tell? Seriously, has their well run dry already? Because, I can think of at least a hundred different stories to tell, that do not revolve around the standard Soap Opera 101 relationship stall & drama tactics.

 

Was BMD really necessary? Couldn't they just have a surprise* kid and OQ has to learn how to adjust his life to somehow make room in his head & heart for a child? There is enough intrinsic emotional drama in that storyline without needing to make him keep secrets or tell "lies". Couldn't he just be there for FS while she went through some of the major hospital moments? It's not like all the fights he got into were relevant, interesting or worth him not spending an extra 30 sec on the hospital set. And finding yourself paralyzed and your life forever changed has enough intrinsic drama in it to fill seasons worth of TV.

 

I think when it comes down to it the writers just suck at writing relationships. I can't think of one relationship they wrote that they actually got it right. Dyla is not too bad off, but considering they only write 1 episode for them every season, it's not that hard to mess it up. O&F were an amazing, appealing & popular coupling because they were so natural & organic. I am willing to state that the relationship is rooted in the chemistry that comes from the actors and has almost nothing that can be attributed to the writing. Now that they are writing for the couple, they are ruining them.

 

It's just sad, because they had lightning in a bottle and are wasting it on played out for D.R.A.M.A plots that do no justice to the characters. Meanwhile, those audience members that may be more allergic to romance, are turned off by the relationship because it is taking center stage and playing out their worst nightmare. Likewise, it's the worst nightmare for people who like romance, because this is not a quality romantic pairing the way they are writing it. And perhaps in its dramatic extremes it might be considered an epic romance. But it's so poorly written, I can't imagine any one wanting to read or watch it.

 

I really don't understand these writers. It's like they were given the opportunity of a lifetime and passed it up so they could indulge their fantasies of being the next Danielle Steel or Shonda Rimes. The only difference is Danielle Steel & Shonda Rimes for the most part know how to write Romantic DRAMA.

 

Edited** - because I accidentally typed secret kid instead of surprise kid.

Edited February 5, 2016 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

Yes, we missed out on some of the more shippery moments & some of the emotional beats, but the relationship was solid and non-intrusive.

I kinda think the non-intrusive thing is part of their embarrassment over having a significant part of their success tied into a 'shippy pairing that has a life of its own. They skip the significant beats because of their abject fear of the show being perceived as romantic, or god-forbid, girly.

 

However, by throwing it to the wolves with the BMD, the paralysis & whatever tropey DRAMA they can come up with just ruins the couple & it ruins the show. Can they really not think of more stories to tell? Seriously, has their well run dry already? Because, I can think of at least a hundred different stories to tell, that do not revolve around the standard Soap Opera 101 relationship stall & drama tactics.

I'm pretty sure these guys write their main romantic storyline -- the one they freaking tied to the hero's journey as essential to his development, even -- from a fairly narrow standpoint: they believe there are only two plot points to romance: when the couple gets together, and when the couple breaks up. So they only ever write romance towards those two end points. If the couple is apart, they're written towards getting together. When they're together, they'll be written towards breaking up. Rinse, repeat, time is a flat circle, or whatever.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm pretty sure these guys write their main romantic storyline -- the one they freaking tied to the hero's journey as essential to his development, even -- from a fairly narrow standpoint: they believe there are only two plot points to romance: when the couple gets together, and when the couple breaks up. So they only ever write romance towards those two end points. If the couple is apart, they're written towards getting together. When they're together, they'll be written towards breaking up. Rinse, repeat, time is a flat circle, or whatever.

So it's going to happen again in S5?

[kismet]

So it's going to happen again in S5?

Most likely.

 

Buckle up!! I just proposed a challenge to the writers in the hopes/fears sections. And I seriously want them to take it.

[dtissagirl]

So it's going to happen again in S5?

 

I think it depends on whether they reach the end point of the romance side of the story influencing the hero's journey. I don't know when that will happen.

 

They've made romance into one of the staples of Oliver becoming a hero. Oliver falling in love, and being loved by The One Woman was embedded into the making of Green Arrow. They've even tied all of the symbolism of being Green Arrow to Felicity -- she was the first one to call him a hero, the one to build his bow, the one to put the mask on him, the one to make the Green Arrow suit. They're almost there, actually. The one thing that's missing is Oliver completely embracing superhero-ing as something that isn't a burden to him, but a source of self-fulfillment. Felicity is already there, but Oliver isn't. If there's an actual plan, the point when Oliver embraces the Green Arrow with all his heart is the end point of the romantic storyline. Felicity's job as the hero's muse is done then. After that they don't have break up anymore.

 

But I'm not entirely certain these hacks have a plan.

[Morrigan2575]

No, no no. after that Olicity break up for good because Green Arrow  recognizes that now that he's a hero he has to be with his one twe luv...Black Canary.  LOL

 

Sorry, it's a snarky, snowy Friday 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

No, no no. after that Olicity break up for good because Green Arrow  recognizes that now that he's a hero he has to be with his one twe luv...Black Canary.  LOL

 

Sorry, it's a snarky, snowy Friday 

 

I'm in 110F hell and the water in my building has been closed off for repairs. Wanna trade? ;)

[kismet]

Yea I can't say I'm all that loyal, but I try.  Charmed lost me on it's last season and I've never seen the series finale (it almost lost me when they broke up Piper and Leo).  Once lost me temporarily with the "we aren't bad we are just written that way" Author plot and then for good when they turned Emma into the Dark One.  I might go back for the series finale, but that's probably it.

 

I'm on the edge with Arrow.  My significant other has stopped watching.  I almost skipped the last episode and only watched because I was spoiled that Roy would be back.  I just feel like there is nothing left on this show to look forward to.  I know shows are hesitant to put couples together because they think people will stop watching, but it's always the angst that makes me check out.  I can't stand stupid internal angst.  I could watch a couple deal with all sorts of hell get thrown at them - as long as they do it as a couple.  But the betrayals, lies, and drama* bore me every time.

 

*Which is why I instantly knew I didn't want Oliver and Laurel together.  And I do kind of think if they went that route, I would quit.  But I just can't enjoy Oliver and Felicity together anymore.  And the thought of them reuniting only to go through this again next season makes me want the show to be over already.

Well for me its poorly written and executed betrayal, lies and drama (BLD). And that is what Arrow is. I have watched many a nighttime soap with enthusiasm despite it's cheesiness because at the heart the BLD was genuine or engaging. But you lose me when you start going for the cheapest or easiest for plot BLDs. It sorta reminds me of when people people talk about teaching. You can teach anyone a skill; but you can not teach everyone talent. Some people are just more naturally gifted at delivering certain things. If you are not naturally gracefully you can take a million ballet classes and maybe get a little bit more graceful - but your never going to have that easy grace of some naturally talented at ballet. Likewise, you can't teach finesse.

 

Shonda Rimes is naturally gifted in the BLD department. Consistently delivers strong shows rich in BLD. Jaw-dropping, twisty, game-changing, epic and OMG moments. These are not adjectives she uses to describe her own work. These are descriptors delivered by numerous fans & critics alike week after week, because she delivers it week after week. Everytime MG gives an interviews and drops a Shonda-like adjective, I just cringe. Because to me it sounds like he is overcompensating and overselling his product. Your product should speak for itself. Yes, you can throw in some descriptors - but it needs to deliver otherwise your recommendation is shallow & useless.

 

MG thinks he is naturally gifted in BLD department- he is not. When people can predicted every BLD a half a season or more in advance, that it not a well written BLD. When you reverse your big shockers or BLDs within a 2-3 episode turnaround because plot dictates or permits it without much struggle, that is poorly written BLD. And just because you introduce it in Dec and let is fester until Feb without writers addressing it at all, does not relinquish you of that 2-3 ep rule. You still resolved the issue in 2-3 episodes.

 

I just wish MG would learn to write and lead his team to write to their strengths because there are some things they get so well either intentionally or through fortuitous fate, like creating OTA and letting Olicity blossom. That it becomes frustrating when they keep playing on the out of tune instruments, because their ego or their stubbornness tells them it has to be one way. Their are so many different ways to tell a story, esp when it comes to BLD.

[kismet]

I can say with a great amount of certainty that they REALLY don't think there was anything wrong with any of those things. They course-corrected other stuff -- the show isn't as depressing this season, they're skipping love triangles entirely, they made the villain vibrant and amusing instead of morose, they even toned down crazy eyes Palmer for LoT. But everything else -- the ratings back them up, and the pro-critics weren't raging against the LoA storyline with that much gusto. And the EPs know what it looks like when pro-critics are coming at them, because it happened with Laurel in S1/S2 [and now it happened again with the BM lie of doom, but that'll only have the chance to be fully course-corrected next season].

 

So, I dunno, instead of wanting the show to implode, maybe try disengaging from slowly? That has helped me quit a bunch of shows I thought I would never be able to. And stopping reading spoilers helps A LOT, because then you're not at all prepared for when something is SO DUMB YOU HAVE TO QUIT, so you quit it.

It's definitely not as depressing as last season, but like somebody else said in another thread that is setting the bar pretty low. They did autocorrect in 4a until they took a hard swerve with 4b's BMD, paralysis & LOA redeux. We can reassess when this middle part of the season plays out however it plays out. I have very low expectations, which will probably help.

 

But thanks for the advice :)

[nksarmi]

I think BLD works for me when it's part of revealing who a villain is.  For example, even if Flash had never chosen for us to see Harrison Wells walking and checking the future newspaper clipping in season one - I think the BLD of him really being Eobard Thorne just worked.  The best BLD stuff I can think of on Arrow was all in season one - and I really don't mean the Laurel/Sara stuff.

 

It seems to me that this show needs to focus test some of their plot ideas or practice the art of releasing "trial balloons."  I'm not saying that they should "write for the Internet" but they should get some perspective outside of their writing room when so many of their "cool" ideas have been so poorly received.

 

I'm just not sure how long they can keep relying on ERB and SA's chemistry to keep fans tuning in.  Stupid BLD will taint even their amazing chemistry in time.