Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Chaser]

The very idea of Laurel losing the ability to speak and KC having to convey everything with facial expressions sends me into giggles.

 

"No! You aren't angry!"

 

"Not annoyed either!"

Edited December 11, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[catrice2]

Gosh I'm glad I discovered this thread.  I don't even  know where to start with the things that have disappointed me: 

 

Killing Moria- not having  her husband stay around as a guiding force for her children 

Working with Malcolm  

Moving away from having Oliver kill people and turning him into "the nice guy" 

Dropping the Russian mob persona 

Too many people on Team Arrow- when it was just Oliver/ Diggle and even Felicity it was great, now I can't even keep up with who is doing what in the fight scenes 

Too much focus on the romantic relationship- Oliver shouldn't need a romance to define him or to make him want to be a better person 

The propping of LOT 

The introduction of Sara, and bringing her back 

Oliver's relationship with Sara- unnecessary 

Moving away from having a new and different threat each week to the "big bad" of the season 

Suspension of belief that everyone would not know who the Arrow is just by looking at his supporting characters 

Lazarus pit 

Wasted season with Rah Al Ghul, or however you want to say it or spell it, they couldn't even make up their mind 

Flashbacks....please can we get rid of them

Oliver/Felicity romance drama

Taking away the Queen money and power-it is always nicer to see the hero have unlimited means-I mean I love Batman 

 

Overall, I liked the dark and complicated Oliver Queen fighting against the underworld of the city.  Now with people with mystical powers and fighting a big threat while he is trying to be a domestic goddess, they have weakened him and made him less interesting.  

 

I haven't kept up with comic book Batman in a while, but the thing that makes him my favorite superhero is that until the recon with these movies, Batman was never sitting around pining over a woman.  Yes there was Talia and the attraction with Catwoman, Vicki Vale etc., but he is not always sitting around taking their advice and pouring out his feelings to them.  

[Primal Slayer]

I'm still annoyed that the writers just glossed over all the changes that have gone on since Saras death in 3x01. She comes back to life and it is like she didn't go anywhere, yet everyone around her has changed somewhat drastically since she last encountered them.

[way2interested]

I'm still annoyed that the writers just glossed over all the changes that have gone on since Saras death in 3x01. She comes back to life and it is like she didn't go anywhere, yet everyone around her has changed somewhat drastically since she last encountered them.

 

Yep, somewhat surprised she didn't at least make a comment about how different things were. I mean, Roy's gone, Laurel's a vigilante, Thea's a vigilante, Diggle's got a costume, is married, has a kid, the team has a new lair, Malcolm is Ra's, Olicity are together...those are a lot of changes. Heck, Thea killed her, and we're not getting a follow-up on Sara's feelings about that. We didn't even get much interaction with Sara and the team in general.

 

To play devil's advocate, I wouldn't know what the writers would have her say or do in the little time they had with her in episode 6 to make sure that she was gone by the next episode and the crossover (I was actually surprised that she and Ray wouldn't be in the crossover along with the fact that she didn't even meet Ray after being part of the rescue team). I'd argue that they should have just kept her around from episode 6-9, but then it would have taken some time away from Diggle's and Felicity's plots in 406 and 407. If it were just Sara as an Arrow character coming back, they could have just reintroduced her and have her come back to the new sense of reality with the team throughout 4b, but alas, Legends of Tomorrow.

[kismet]

I must admit I'm kinda bummed we didn't get SL & RP meeting up at a bar or coffee shop to start their mission to be away from SC and find a new journey. Not that I want them together, but I do think they would make interesting friends. Also it would have been funny for them to have no clue that they knew mutual people. Or perhaps FS could have been like call this girl she is soul searching too. It just seemed like once they were out of immediate danger - TA was like have fun, don't get dead or caught again. You would think they would want their friends to not be searching the world alone considering one just got to be real size & the other just got back from the dead.

[Primal Slayer]

It was weird that she comes back, spends 2 episodes soulless, 1 episode back to "normal" then skips town. They could've added her not feeling needed in Star City with how much everything has changed as part of the reason she leaves.

[EmilyBettFan]

I just don't see how there's too much romantic focus. I'm guessing it has to do with who he is with for some people. There's been romance in the flashbacks and present time in each season. You can like or dislike who you want but this whole thing of it being too much romance is non sense. It happens in almost every comic book and comic based tv show.

Edited December 15, 2015 by EmilyBettFan

[Happy Harpy]

I must admit I'm kinda bummed we didn't get SL & RP meeting up at a bar or coffee shop to start their mission to be away from SC and find a new journey. Not that I want them together, but I do think they would make interesting friends. Also it would have been funny for them to have no clue that they knew mutual people.

Maybe it's something they keep for LoT, if S/R is the main relationship on the show. I don't mean it as necessarily romantic, it could be as friends or as co-leaders etc.

 Although it would have made more sense to take place on Arrow than encounters with flying Egyptian soulmates (sigh) or the BM drama -and maybe I'd have watched the crossover then. Yep, I'd have preferred Ray Palmer, I said it, and it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

[Happy Harpy]

(Can't add a quote when I edit a post, so I made another one)

 

I just don't see how there's too much romantic focus. I'm guessing it has to do with who he is with for some people. There's been romance in the flashbacks and present time in each season. You can like or dislike who you want but this whole thing of it being too much romance is non sense. It happens in almost every comic book and comic based tv show.

I agree that there was always a heavy romantic focus on Arrow. For me, it depends how it is done. I'd take S4 minus the crossover hiccup anytime over S1 and the T/L/O triangle that made everyone at their worst imo. But some people do dislike romance on the principle.

[EmilyBettFan]

Yeah I understand that.

The Flash has like 5 billion ships they want to make into a thing. I don't see nearly enough people complaining about that.

[Sakura12]

I'm bitter that Sara never got to know that Diggle named his daughter after her.

[bijoux]

I'm bitter that Sara never got to know that Diggle named his daughter after her.

 

True. But I offer you this unspoken acknowledgement of her contribution to the team as a consolation prize.

 

 

Source

[EmilyBettFan]

God how I love that. Doesn't need a stunt double either.

[kismet]

I'm bitter that Sara never got to know that Diggle named his daughter after her.

Bummed about that too :( Although all the more reason for Dig to have to visit LoT, or even SL come back to SC for a quick dinner.

[Morrigan2575]

Honestly, I'll admit that my bias against him comes from the fact that he was a new love interest. The idea that he was coming on as a love interest and as a possible new lead in another show made me just see him, and many of his actions, as just placeholders until the time came to undo and erase everything. I became a bit tuned-out to him from the beginning since his first scenes involved lying to Felicity (yes, like Oliver did in 103 but she saw through it and helped him anyway) to steal the company from her friend (not like what Oliver did in 103, which was try to stop a bad guy even if he was the Hood). Ray and Felicity's first scenes were tainted to me, and it did just make me pretty impatient with a lot of his actions. Not impatient enough to write a 9-page essay about it, but annoyed just the same.

 

I think the writers completely missed the ball on Ray and Raylicity.  I think they screwed up by setting him as an a LI from the beginning and announcing it left/right/center.  I think they screwed up by having what they thought were cute Tracy/Hepburn scenes but the dialogue and chemistry really didn't support it (at all), IMO.  I think they screwed up by casting Brandon Routh, I think a different actor might have had enough Charisma and Chemistry with EBR to sell some of the scenes that were intended to be cute/fun/awkward geeky but, instead came across (for many) as creepy.  I also think they delay in getting the ATOM suit ready and having to drag out Ray as LI instead of future hero really hurt the story.

 

I think the end run of episodes and pairing Ray with other characters (like Cisco) painted the character in a better light and worked in favor or BR's limited range. I think they were aiming for Barry/Felicity or Curtis/Felicity which are cute/fun/sweet/awkward relationships, but wanted a foil for Oliver/Olicity and just massively screwed it up.  Of course most of S3 was massively screwed up, IMO.  It's like they had all these great ideas that on paper should have made a perfect season.  However, the execution was so poorly done (casting, acting, writing, etc) that it's just a jumbled mess of what could have been.

[kismet]

I've got to say that after watching 401 again... I am bitter about the new GA costume... I really miss the old one after seeing it in some recent media clippings. And I know I am the minority but I really miss the old Flashback Wig. It was so nice to see it again.

[Morrigan2575]

I hate the new costume, I have since it was revealed at SDCC.

[Starfish35]

I was iffy about it when it was announced, but I've grown to hate it. It makes SA look so bulky. :(

And yes I also miss the flashback wig.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Starfish35

[Guest]

He also looks like he can barely lift his arms properly. It just looks so awkward. Plus it takes a lot to make SA look bulky and short.

[thegirlsleuth]

I hate the costume. The arms look stupid and impractical, and the leather bunches in the middle, which makes it look like Stephen Amell has love handles. The man does not have love handles. 

[calliope1975]

I don't hate the new GA costume, but I definitely don't love it, and I absolutely preferred the suit with the original hood. I liked the symbolism in keeping that. Actually, is it confirmed that that hood is gone? I haven't examined the new suit that closely. 

 

Since I'm in the bitter thread, after looking at Laurel side by side with Sara in those character posters, I'm even more bitter we have the passable cosplayer instead of the girl that looks like she could kick your ass without even trying. I know the photoshop/lighting/background plays into it, but one I buy as a fighter and one I do not. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by calliope1975

[hogwash]

Ew, Flashback Wig deserved to die. I would always find myself staring at his neck in the flashbacks cause the freaking wig wouldn't stay down like it's supposed to. I hope it never comes back. I can't tell if I like the GA suit yet. I think I'm just used to it now. The old suit was way better though. Cisco sucks at costume design...

 

I hate that Sara is gone but I like how they're doing it (outside of the stupidity of her S03 murder). It's what the Arrow/Canary relationship should look like. They both have their own shit going on and occasionally they orbit back into each other's lives. 

 

This needs more bitter.... Despite all the dumb in S03, killing Sara was the dumbest. 

[kismet]

As bad as that wig might have been for some people, it still made better acting choices at times and is more memorable than Poppy. At this point, I would have preferred OQ just sneaking off to talk to his wig as opposed to Poppy. It must have remembered how to swim, I'm sure it could have taught new close cut haired OQ how to swim in the ocean. Probably could have taught him how to avoid that shark too.

[NumberCruncher]

Antonio Negret >>>>> Bam Bam. Dear TPTB, I'm not buying all the hype. Get yourself a real director. That is all.

[EmilyBettFan]

^ Totally right. Here comes bam with his shaky cam!

[Primal Slayer]

It pisses me off that they never have Laurel utilize what she learned from Ted or even make it seem like she still trains with him.

No stunt double required on Katies part.

[apinknightmare]

It pisses me off that they never have Laurel utilize what she learned from Ted or even make it seem like she still trains with him.

No stunt double required on Katies part.

 

I agree with you 100%, but your point would've been so much better if you had used a gif where she didn't miss him every single swing, haha.

[Sakura12]

That gif is like watching the Rhonda Rousey/Holly Holm fight. Lol. She swings too high and wide and doesn't have her arms up to block. If he wasn't just dodging her could've got her easily. Hopefully Sara gives her some pointers on keeping her body smaller and how to block. 

[Chaser]

I want to know if she was supposed to be terrible in that sparring session or if it was supposed to be a demonstration of her skills.

'Cause that is pretty bad.

[wonderwall]

I want to know if she was supposed to be terrible in that sparring session or if it was supposed to be a demonstration of her skills.

'Cause that is pretty bad.

She's supposed to be terrible. But don't worry, in about 15-18 weeks she became good enough to defend herself against 3-4 LoA members AT THE SAME TIME!!! :D

Edited December 18, 2015 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

I want to know if she was supposed to be terrible in that sparring session or if it was supposed to be a demonstration of her skills.

'Cause that is pretty bad.

 

IIRC, he was giving her pointers in that scene. I think that was still pretty early on, so she's supposed to be terrible. 

[Chaser]

Oh I remember now. 3x05. The montage.

Edited December 18, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Primal Slayer]

I agree with you 100%, but your point would've been so much better if you had used a gif where she didn't miss him every single swing, haha.

She missed 3, hit 2-3, it's a nice even for me but it was the only decent gif I could find.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Guest]

That's also why a stunt double wasn't necessary for that scene. She was supposed to suck.

On that note though, I know they all need and use stunt doubles but this show needs to get better with disguising them. I can point out KC's double every single episode. 409 was probably the most I'd seen. Thea's one has improved (I remember it was really obvious in s3) but even then I can tell sometimes. I find it so distracting.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

She didn't suck throughout the entire scene though. Plus the actor playing Ted needed a stunt double, Katie opted to do the entire thing.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[wonderwall]

Pretty much... I don't care about stunt doubles, but when I see them (which is most noticeable with KC and MN last year because they don't have hoods) it takes me right out of the scene which lowers the quality of said scene that's meant to be badass/awesome. So I can see why people would be annoyed/upset with being able to see the stunt double. 

 

Hell, I was annoyed when I saw Felicity's stunt double in that van after she ran over Isabel.

 

It's not Laurel's fault. But it is a negative in the negative column on KC's abilities especially when there are other actors who can keep up with the physicality of said fight scenes like CL/SA/DR and another reason why people believe that she was miscast for the role. 

[hogwash]

Then 3+ months of these occasional lessons she decides to put on a mask and go fight criminals with a baton? After starting off that horrible? Even though that life led to Sara's death and Oliver's presumed death despite them having 50X the training. 

[Primal Slayer]

Girl doesn't give up, it is both a strength and a weakness.

[wonderwall]

Girl doesn't give up, it is both a strength and a weakness.

 

I understand not giving up. It's one of the very few things I like about her character. But there's a difference between not giving up and gaining an unreasonable skill in a period of time (15-20wks to be more specific). Laurel falls into the latter category. Even if she was training 24/7 (which she wasn't considering she stopped training after she put on the mask until she met Nyssa), I still wouldn't have believed her unrealistic (unrealistic within the rules that the show has built in which it took Oliver/Sara years to gain that much skill in more dire situations) gain in skill level (enough to keep up with 3-4 LoA members who probably trained their entire lives?).

 

*shrugs*

[apinknightmare]

[Guest]

I'm not saying the stunt double is an actress problem. I'm not getting into that here. But it is a show/filming problem. Fix that ish already.

I legit laugh out loud whenever you use this.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Guest

[wonderwall]

Disregard the words :p

 

[NumberCruncher]

That Stephen GIF never fails to please me. Watching his face fall every time a dumbass reporter tries the whole "Oliver + Laurel = 4eva" thing is just a gift that keeps on giving.

[EmilyBettFan]

Lmfao that Stephen Gif. That totally makes me LOL

[kismet]

No stunt double needed for that swing...

 

It's only 1 week into the hiatus and the horse is already back out.

[catrox14]

Been re-watching Arrow from the beginning. I so miss THAT Arrow. You know, when Oliver Queen was the most important character in his own story. And the supporting characters were used smartly to advance Oliver's journey. Yes, s4 is finding that again...so YAY! 

 

The fights and stunts were organic and much more believable and brutal. I miss Diggle and Oliver snarking at each other whilst having each other's back. I miss Oliver's old outfit :(.  Felicity's introduction is still so perfect. I maintain she was Team Arrow the moment she looked at Oliver's bullet ridden laptop, she just didn't know it yet :). 

 

But man I am still really bitter about Tommy and Moira

 

Tommy: He legitimately had character growth in a believable way. Pretty much everyone in s1 had pretty well written arcs even Laurel to a lesser degree. But man, she's still pretty shitty to Tommy no matter how you slice it.  Tommy was kind of the only one that was innocent in the whole thing. Yeah he was a douchey playboy but he changed.  And then we see how crappy Malcolm was to him.  And just Colin Donell was so good in the part.  I just really miss him. 

 

But MOIRA.....ugh MOIRA. I really think her death is the one I hate the most that made the least sense (non-Sara division) because she still had a fuckton of story left. Her dirty shenanigans made her compelling and yet she still wanted the best for her kids even when she was fucking up. Susanna and Stephen had such great chemistry.

 

There was so much potential once BM reveal happened to really examine Oliver and Moira's relationship and as a mirror to Malcolm and Thea.  Moira didn't HAVE to be killed to advance that relationship because Thea was going to bitter and angry either way once the secret was revealed.  They could have had Moira be injured and presumed dead in 2.23, Malcolm rescues Thea and then off they go to Corto Maltese and Thea still gets ruffied into killing Sara. Moira lives but is unwilling or unable to still be CEO of QC. So she goes off to Australia to find Walter, leaving her alive and open for coming back.

 

Mostly I'm just fucking resentful Berlanti and Kriesberg just used Arrow to get to the Flash. And Guggenheim  nearly ruining the show in s3 to make Laurel into Black Canary. I am grateful that apparently Mericle cares enough about Arrow to raise the sinking ship before it fully hits rock bottom.

Edited December 19, 2015 by catrox14

[KirkB]

It still bugs me that they had a number of ways they could have turned Laurel into the Black Canary without pissing off nearly as many people, but they chose to do it in the most circuitous and frustrating way possible.

 

And yes, I too miss early Arrow. When Oliver was the star of the show and a man on a mission. 

[hogwash]

I'll join with the Moira sadness. I talk to much about Laurel's BS transformation. Moira's shenanigans and OTA made S01 for me. ST was such a treasure. I wish Moira had been convicted and sentenced to jail. Then gotten released sometime later on appeal or whatever thanks to Merlyn's help. That could have worked so well.

 

No story left??? Oliver after losing the wool over his eyes and seeing his mother for who/how she really is?? Moira knowing Oliver's secret? Moira in the wake of Thea going off with Merlyn? Felicity and Moira?? Donna and Moira??? My Queen, cut down before her prime/full story potential. 

[Guest]

I'm bitter Moira died too. I think there was plenty still left to explore with her character and she was just really great to watch.

 

Just imagine s3 if Moira was still alive though. Maybe begrudgingly teaming up with Felicity to take Malcolm down or something and learning mutual respect along the way. FOREVER BITTER. 

[catrox14]

I often dream of a Lazarus Pitted Moira. I mean that would have been kind of awesome. I mean it's horrible because you know resurrecting from the dead, but I swear I would pay all the money to watch a pissed off, wackadoodle Moira get her vengeance on.