Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[KenyaJ]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think Black Siren could have been redeemed at some point, and if Quentin got involved, it would have been fine. But, they've gone so hard on making her so awful and murderous, to the point of coming across as a particularly sadistic serial killer (as opposed to, say, Nyssa or Deadshot, who were also bad guys who found some redemption, who came across as immoral and maybe unstable, but not deranged and delighting in death), it makes her possible redemption pretty hard to swallow.

It makes it impossible to swallow. One of the most enduring images of the season for me was the trail of blood smeared on the floor by the security guard she murdered right after he mentioned his children and begged for his life. There's no redeeming that.

[lemotomato]

Right before BS killed the girl in the garage in 604, she complimented her sneakers. The next shot is of BS walking away in the dead girl's shoes. 

Keeping on topic for this thread, I'm bitter we have to waste time on this farce of a "redemption arc" (whether or not it even results in redemption in the end) and insulted that the writers thought one moment of hesitation before she killed Vigilante anyway is supposed to cancel out any of the stuff she did onscreen in 604, much less all the murdering she's done that we haven't seen. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by lemotomato

[Kymmi]

I'm bitter that Cayden James was limited to a 1/2 season run.  I'm REALLY bitter that Dragon seems to be set up as the mastermind, and I can't decide if I want to see Alena as the brains behind the operation (because otherwise the character doesn't make sense to me) or what.  Basically, I don't care that Dragon wants to take over the city.  I'm still too mad about how petulant Rene and Curtis are acting (I give Dinah a half pass because of Vince's death).  And the thought of BS being redeemed is too much to think about.  

[Guest]

I'm bitter that I thought this dumb civil war plot would actually give me more OTA focus and yet it's just more of the newbies being awful people. So basically I'm mad at myself for being fooled. Haha.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I've stated it the many episode threads, but now that EVUHL!FINCH is dead, I'm bitterbitterbitterbitter, that I we, that's right, WE, didn't get him to introduce Mush Mouth Wannabe leader Diaz, the NOOBS and Oliver to this guy:

So he could KNEE CAP AND KILL THE FIRST AND KNEECAP THE NOOBS!

And THEN to not see the FIGHT between Oliver and This Guy. So much POTENTIAL LOST!

[lemotomato]

24 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I'm bitter that I thought this dumb civil war plot would actually give me more OTA focus and yet it's just more of the newbies being awful people. So basically I'm mad at myself for being fooled. Haha.

That's why I'm wary of asking these writers for anything. It's like wishing on a monkey's paw.

Us: Can Felicity get her own storylines please?
Them:  Sure! ::Paralyzes her then un-paralyzes her, makes her a CEO then fires her, Havenrock, all squeezed into half a season::

Us: Can we get OTA scenes please?
Them: Sure! ::Breaks up team, puts OTA in the background of scenes, more time spent focused on the newbies::

[tangerine95]

31 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I'm bitter that I thought this dumb civil war plot would actually give me more OTA focus and yet it's just more of the newbies being awful people. So basically I'm mad at myself for being fooled. Haha.

Yeah same.It was supposed to be the one good thing.But they're doing the same as always and it's more just them standing around together than scenes of much substance.We did get more than usual and we got Diggle and Felicity scenes but I definitely don't think they're taking advantage of the newbies being gone to give ota focus like I was hoping.We get more of the newbies as a team than OTA imo.Plus they're not even gone really.Every single episode is like we're not a team and yet they keep working together,the newbies are in the bunker,they still have joint fight scenes.I don't get the point when the only thing different is now Oliver,Felicity and Digg are insulted in every episode.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

That's why I'm wary of asking these writers for anything. It's like wishing on a monkey's paw.

Us: Can Felicity get her own storylines please?
Them:  Sure! ::Paralyzes her then un-paralyzes her, makes her a CEO then fires her, Havenrock, all squeezed into half a season::

Us: Can we get OTA scenes please?
Them: Sure! ::Breaks up team, puts OTA in the background of scenes, more time spent focused on the newbies::

This is the main problem I have. Yes, OTA are together in scenes. Yes, Diggle and Felicity have said more words to each other than they have for at least 2 seasons. But it's not a storyline that's theirs? It's in reaction to the newbies. OTA have had nothing of substance, they're basically there to support and service the newbies storyline. That's what really pisses me off. They've sidelined them even more.

(And let's not get me started on wanting more for Felicity but apparently it's more about the ensemble now and yet Dinah is getting her own storyline this whole season. I WANNA FIGHT.)

Edited February 12, 2018 by Guest

[lemotomato]

38 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

And let's not get me started on wanting more for Felicity but apparently it's more about the ensemble now and yet Dinah is getting her own storyline this whole season. I WANNA FIGHT.)

Dinah may have gotten her own storylines this season, but they've been so bad they've made people wish for the return of the character she replaced. I certainly don't wish that on my fav.

[Guest]

Just now, lemotomato said:

Dinah may have gotten her own storylines this season, but they've been so bad they've made people wish for the return of the character she replaced. I certainly don't wish that on my fav.

Very good point! LOL.

[tennisgurl]

The other thing about Black Siren being redeemed, even beyond the weird Quentin stuff, is that the writers never wrote in a good "get out of jail free" card for her. In general, if writers write a bad or morally questionable character into a show, and they want to redeem them eventually, or just make them more sympathetic, they have a "get out of jail free" card in their back pocket for the character, so that when they decide to make the character more sympathetic, or even a hero, they have something to allow the audience to be more understanding of the character, making them possibly a victim of circumstance or something they cant really control, so that the audience (and in universe good guys) can accept them and look past their evil deeds eventually. Its a teeny tiny excuse for the evil behavior, that makes the audience understand and feel bad for them, despite everything. It means that their evil wasn't totally their own doing, and there is some hope of redemption when they have a choice. 

Like, Nyssa and Deadshot were assassins, but Nyssa was raised to be an assassin and knew no other way to be, and Deadshot was a vet suffering from severe PTSD who HIVE took advantage of originally. Slade was a supervillain, but he was literally crazy on Mirakuru and seeing things that weren't there. Mick and Snart were career criminals and murderous, but LoT later explored Mick being actually mentally ill, and Snart was raised to be a criminal by his abusive father, and his earlier nastiness could be looked at as a brutal pragmatism he grew up with. None of that excuses everything they did, but it does allow the audience to think "well, I can see how mental illness/being raised by an evil person/suffering a massive trauma could make a fundamentally decent person do awful things..." and that moment of empathy can lead to a real redemption arc. The get out of jail free card cant be the WHOLE redemption, there needs to be some acknowledgement of mistakes made and generally some attempt to do actually good things and make up for past evils, but its the little card that can be slipped to the audience to get beyond that mental picture the audience has of the character hurting people and doing wrong, and get behind them being a sympathetic, or even heroic, character. It has to show HOW the character got to be where they are, so the audience can cheer for them to become more like the person they could have been, or at least feel sad at the lost potential. The card allows for that empathy, and some understanding, as a building block of a bigger story. 

I think they tried that with Black Siren and her dead father, but it doesn't really work, because its hard to see how we got from "basically decent" to "kills people" from her father dying at a young age. If they build on it further, maybe they can still pull the card for BS, but if thats it? The audience will still be thinking about the poor woman she killed in the parking garage and the security guard with a family whos blood she left all over his work. The audience can see how some things could lead a person down a dark path, but BS is on SUCH a dark, sadistic path, they needed a MUCH bigger get out of jail free card for her. They need to see how they got from "Dad died" to "sadistically killing innocents for fun", and we haven't seen it yet. Even beyond the greater failure of forcing someone to get redeemed, like Quentin is doing, they haven't given her that card that she needs. Its not an excuse, its just a sucky thing that happened, as of now. I assume they wanted to keep a BS redemption as an option, so why not write her that card? 

[KenyaJ]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I think they tried that with Black Siren and her dead father, but it doesn't really work, because its hard to see how we got from "basically decent" to "kills people" from her father dying at a young age. 

She didn't just lose her father, she never got her birthday cake! As someone who loves cake more than I love almost anything, I can certainly understand how that would turn you into a remorseless killer.

I don't think the writers are actually going to redeem Black Siren. But if they do, between this, the Cayden/Dragon storyline, and the Civil War, this entire season will be a giant exercise in the writers not accomplishing what they thought they were accomplishing.

[Starfish35]

9 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

this entire season will be a giant exercise in the writers not accomplishing what they thought they were accomplishing.

Sooooo.....par for the course then? :)

[statsgirl]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 Even her sad back story, of her Quentin dying when she was 13, is certainly sad, but not so sad that it totally excuses becoming such a monster later on

Thea lost her father when she was 12 and her brother too although he later came back. Do I have her becoming a mass murderer to look forward to?

10 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

It makes it impossible to swallow. One of the most enduring images of the season for me was the trail of blood smeared on the floor by the security guard she murdered right after he mentioned his children and begged for his life. There's no redeeming that.

Not for you. Nor for me.

But the writers.... I don't trust.

[Kymmi]

21 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I've stated it the many episode threads, but now that EVUHL!FINCH is dead, I'm bitterbitterbitterbitter, that I we, that's right, WE, didn't get him to introduce Mush Mouth Wannabe leader Diaz, the NOOBS and Oliver to this guy:

So he could KNEE CAP AND KILL THE FIRST AND KNEECAP THE NOOBS!

 

And THEN to not see the FIGHT between Oliver and This Guy. So much POTENTIAL LOST!

I didn't realize I needed this and now it's ALL I CAN THINK ABOUT.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

31 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

That's because there isn't a point. There would be one if she was stuck in the kitchen all episode not doing anything helpful other than making cookies or being a parent. But she hasn't - that hasn't happened in any episode this season. I get being frustrated that things aren't panning out the way people had hoped wrt this storyline, but that doesn't have anything to do with baking cookies or what limited time she's spent being a stepmother to William. Tying the two together is probably a mistake. 

I'm not counting the lair/vigilante stuff that Felicity is obviously a part of. But outside of that, this story line with her company seems to have been dropped and she's spent most of her non-lair life with William. That's ALL she's done -- again, outside of the lair/vigilante stuff. THAT's my problem and my point. The baking scene, which I found cute and even mentioned in the episode thread, is a symptom of her lack of independent story line.

Then again, same can be said of Oliver. And Digg.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I'm not counting the lair/vigilante stuff that Felicity is obviously a part of. But outside of that, this story line with her company seems to have been dropped and she's spent most of her non-lair life with William. That's ALL she's done -- again, outside of the lair/vigilante stuff. THAT's my problem and my point. The baking scene, which I found cute and even mentioned in the episode thread, is a symptom of her lack of independent story line.

Then again, same can be said of Oliver. And Digg.

Most of the tweets I saw brought up the baking/William thing and tied the issue together, and it came of (to me) as if the complaint was that this wasn't a valuable part of her life to see, and that she was being disrespected as a character because she was stuck at home making cookies and playing family and not out in the workforce. That's why I wrote that I think it would be better served to not tie her lack of storyline complaints in with the family time stuff. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

22 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Most of the tweets I saw brought up the baking/William thing and tied the issue together, and it came of (to me) as if the complaint was that this wasn't a valuable part of her life to see, and that she was being disrespected as a character because she was stuck at home making cookies and playing family and not out in the workforce. That's why I wrote that I think it would be better served to not tie her lack of storyline complaints in with the family time stuff. 

Yeah, I'm not complaining about the baking and even the time spent with William per se. I don't consider it disrespectful to Felicity. I just wish for "more" because I feel like this is the writers' way of giving her (and Oliver) scenes without really providing a story with an arc. (I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well here). 

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Yeah, I'm not complaining about the baking and even the time spent with William per se. I don't consider it disrespectful to Felicity. I just wish for "more" because I feel like this is the writers' way of giving her (and Oliver) scenes without really providing a story with an arc. (I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well here). 

No, I get you! I think the argument that I saw a few people make about MG using the domestic scenes as punishment for Emily speaking out against him muddied the waters, and a couple of arguments got conflated. Totally get wanting to see her doing something else. 

I've missed personal stakes, so I can't really complain about it. It's lazy as hell for exposition, but I like the family time. It's something the show had in the earlier seasons with Oliver that I think have really been missing and the show has suffered for it. So I'll take it where I can get it, and hope they get something going with Felicity after she and Curtis part ways. 

[JJ928]

Quote

This presumes that MG alone makes and executes storyline decisions all by himself. Since that is not the case, then if this is indeed retaliation against EBR for her very public statements, then he managed to get these decisions approved by his female co-showrunner, female EPs, and the women on the writing staff, all who have expressed in the past about how much they love EBR and writing for Felicity.

@lemotomato

I'd say, if there is retaliation, it's done with Berlanti & comps knowledge. I don't put anything past this team of creators, that protected AK for years. Also, the eps are the one that set the overarching stories and the writers adhere to that. Do some the writers love Felicity/EBR? Sure. They've said great things about all the characters/actors they write for, as they should. But I'm sure their jobs are going to come first. I never stated this as a fact, I simple said I can see it happening and I stand by that. Also, my comments have nothing to do with her baking, just to be clear. She could have been cleaning an oven for all I care, my issue is her lack of storyline in general. Two storyline were promised: the company, and that has fizzled into nothing. The other was teased by MG for 6B, but he didn't elaborate what, just that it was to be for her independent of Oliver and Team Arrow... and that is no where to be found as of yet.

Felicity can bake with whoever, whenever, hell she should try another omelet. I won't care. I just want her to have an actual storyline. I feel similarly about Diggle 

[Mellowyellow]

29 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

@lemotomato

I'd say, if there is retaliation, it's done with Berlanti & comps knowledge. I don't put anything past this team of creators, that protected AK for years. Also, the eps are the one that set the overarching stories and the writers adhere to that. Do some the writers love Felicity/EBR? Sure. They've said great things about all the characters/actors they write for, as they should. But I'm sure their jobs are going to come first. I never stated this as a fact, I simple said I can see it happening and I stand by that. Also, my comments have nothing to do with her baking, just to be clear. She could have been cleaning an oven for all I care, my issue is her lack of storyline in general. Two storyline were promised: the company, and that has fizzled into nothing. The other was teased by MG for 6B, but he didn't elaborate what, just that it was to be for her independent of Oliver and Team Arrow... and that is no where to be found as of yet.

Felicity can bake with whoever, whenever, hell she should try another omelet. I won't care. I just want her to have an actual storyline. I feel similarly about Diggle 

I can't say the thought hasn't crossed my mind.

But she was at Berlanti's wedding looking as happy as a lark. And she had a con that weekend so had to fly back and forth. Seems like it would be something she'd miss completely and not many people would question it if there was bad blood between her and Berlanti.

Unless Berlanti is like super nasty and tanking EBR but nice to her face!

[apinknightmare]

I think the likelihood of Berlanti & Co. purposely discriminating against Emily for speaking out against a culture of harassment that shielded AK for years - on the heels of firing him when people are on the lookout for exactly this kind of behavior is slim to none. Not that they aren't capable, but I just can't imagine them being that stupid. But who knows. If Emily was the only one getting shitty storylines I could maybe see it? But the whole season is an absolute nonsensical mess, with a lot of the long-term regular characters' stories suffering because of it. 

[lemotomato]

55 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

@lemotomato

I'd say, if there is retaliation, it's done with Berlanti & comps knowledge. I don't put anything past this team of creators, that protected AK for years. Also, the eps are the one that set the overarching stories and the writers adhere to that. Do some the writers love Felicity/EBR? Sure. They've said great things about all the characters/actors they write for, as they should. But I'm sure their jobs are going to come first. I never stated this as a fact, I simple said I can see it happening and I stand by that. Also, my comments have nothing to do with her baking, just to be clear. She could have been cleaning an oven for all I care, my issue is her lack of storyline in general. Two storyline were promised: the company, and that has fizzled into nothing. The other was teased by MG for 6B, but he didn't elaborate what, just that it was to be for her independent of Oliver and Team Arrow... and that is no where to be found as of yet.

Felicity can bake with whoever, whenever, hell she should try another omelet. I won't care. I just want her to have an actual storyline. I feel similarly about Diggle 

Can I just ask, if the show were to keep Felicity's startup company storyline going, when do you think they would they would have fit it in episodes 610-14?

Edited March 6, 2018 by lemotomato

[JJ928]

7 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Can I just ask, if the show were to keep Felicity's startup company storyline going, when do you think they would they would have fit it in episodes 610-14?

It shouldn’t have to be fit in. It should’ve been a B plot that was still on going. But since Oliver is still under indictment, and Felicity used her start up funds for his bail, that’s easily a way to connect her comp to the current story. They could have her dealing with being part of the team, trying to reestablish her comp sans Curtis, and deal with getting her funds back during this. Also, there’s no reason why they can’t give her a moment to tell us that she’s figuring out new tech, or what she’s gonna do now. If they can give us drawn out scenes of team assholes in an alley with a hologram, they can fit that in too. It doesn’t have to be every ep, but Felicity’s arc are regularly dropped and it’s annoying af.

[lemotomato]

But there hasn't been time for unrelated B-plots for anyone in the last 4 episodes. Everything has tied into the A-plot. In 610, they needed all hands on deck because OTA was suddenly dealing with half the manpower. In 611, they had to deal with a city-wide attack. In 612-613, they were working under a ticking clock because every day they couldn't find James and the bomb, the city was getting blackmailed. In 614 they were again working under a time crunch (48 hours) to find BS and get the money back before Oliver had to announce that he lost the money. So unless the show had written completely different stories for these episodes there's simply no way to squeeze in any significant development about Felicity's startup into them. 

58 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

Also, there’s no reason why they can’t give her a moment to tell us that she’s figuring out new tech, or what she’s gonna do now

I've been told that  "a moment" doesn't constitute a storyline, so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And since this is the bitterness thread, I agree that the writers completely messed up the Civil War storyline they wanted to tell, as well as the Big Bad switcheroo they wanted to do. I would have loved to see OTA get more screentime and focus, not less after the split, which the show could have accomplished if they hadn't insisted on giving both teams equal weight in every damn episode.

Edited March 6, 2018 by lemotomato

[JJ928]

It can be done. Like I said, it doesn’t have to be every ep but time isn’t an excuse. If the writers wanted to they’d make it work, that’s on them. We’re obviously not gonna agree on this and that’s fine. 

[kes0704]

The issue with Felicity’s company storyline wouldn’t have blown up as much as it has if the EP’s hadn’t talked it up before the season began. There would have been no expectations from fans on how big (or small as it’s turned out) the story would be.

Marc specifically talked about how it was something they had wanted to do in S5 but delayed it because they got “seduced” by the Helix plot, but fans would be happy to know it was planned for S6. 

They knew fans were waiting for this for Felicity, but what we’ve been given has been underwhelming and almost non-existent. If the company was only going to be a means to an end in service of other story threads (Dig’s chip, etc.) then maybe don’t sell it as more than it was ever going to be. I’m honestly surprised they haven’t learned that by now.

Edited March 6, 2018 by kes0704
Spelling

[KillahBee007]

@JJ928

I have to agree with your POV. The issue for me isn’t the kid SL (which I hate but I generally hate every kid on a tv show like this except for Trixie on Lucifer) but the idea that the common excuse for the lack of concise SL for Diggle or Felicity is there wasn’t enough time.  However, we get bird flu, more Hoss, more Curtis.  There should be time made for OTA, and this is where the writers have failed miserably. If they wanted to crib the civil war SL, they should have spent more time developing it. 

 

To further speak to the stepmom thing, we have never heard FS’s POV on it. Not once. Am I apart of the chorus asking for more for Felicity and John? Sure am. John has been non-exsistent this season except for when he had the hood. It’s shameful.  Where is the alleged SL independent of Oliver that the EPs promised? If family time is enough for folks, cool but it’s not enough for me. I want more for Felicity and I definitely want more for John. The N00bs have been an absolute drain on this show. Arrow tries to be an ensemble show and that’s gonna be a no. This show doesn’t have the ability to do that. 

Oliver and Felicity are married right? So, can we at least get them acting like newlyweds? Maybe? Please? 

@kes0704

you nailed it. This was something specifically brought up by the eps. This wasn’t something the fans latched onto. Now fans expect some sort of deliverable.  

[tangerine95]

To me the company stuff should have been more prominent in the first half and it shouldn't have been just a straightforward Felicity starts a company thing because well arrow never spends all that much time on that unless it ties into the plot.When they started talking about it I figured they'll make Cayden James involved somehow,kinda like they involved Isabel and Sebastian Blood in Oliver's company storyline to tie it into the villain plot.My biggest issue isn't even the company tbh even tho I absolutely hate that it can't be Smoak tech because of Curtis.My real issue is them wasting CJ when they hyped him as Felicity's villain and they connected her to him last season.That should have been her storyline and it could have played out while they still had ME and then if they wanted Felicity to take a backseat for the team drama it wouldn't have been such an issue because she got a storyline.At this point it's kinda too late for more than a centric episode if we're lucky.It's just crazy to me that Arrow struggles so much with giving main characters a storyline,like isn't it pretty normal for characters to get storylines every season lol They're just way too crowded rn and even being done with flashbacks can't help.

[Mary0360]

I guess I'm curious to know what people who want Felicity's company story line to be either an A or B plot in the show, what does that actually look like in the show?

 

Cause filing intellectual property papers, or taking investor calls or conference calls doesn't seem like all that entertaining drama. I mean I think they could provide more moments here and there of Felicity setting up her office when Oliver comes to visit, or pitching a new tech design when someone from the Team comes at the end of it to ask for help, or have her be testing a new tech product with her employees before being called away to do Team Arrow stuff.

 

But to devote a whole A or B plot to Felicity's company doesn't seem like the height of entertaining drama in a show that's about people going around beating up and catching bad guys.

 

Personally, I would have much rather have seen more of an extended storyline between Felicity and Cayden and their hacking rivalry from 6x04 or have Felicity face and deal with more fall out from Cayden using her digital prints to commit crime. That's more of an interesting B plot then a company storyline which I think works better as more of a sustained background. 

[bijoux]

Going forward, the way the company works on this show is the same way QC/PT used to. Namely that it gets targeted for its tech(Noah via Roy in S4), or because someone has a grudge against Felicity or even rich people  in general (the Hoods in 2.0), or setting up a villain (Isabel). It can never be prominent on this show if it’s only a company. It needs to be a playing ground for Team Arrow side of things.

[Mellowyellow]

@GHScorpiosRule you'd die of anger wouldn't you if they brought in Mr Reese as a guest star in S7 without EvilFinch?

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

@GHScorpiosRule you'd die of anger wouldn't you if they brought in Mr Reese as a guest star in S7 without EvilFinch?

You have NO IDEA. My rage would have NO BOUNDS.

[Guest]

I've never needed Felicity's company storyline to be the A plot. I'd just like it to be part of the plot at all? IDK why that's such a problem. I don't need to see office scenes but IDK, maybe we could've seen her excitement in getting the keys to her new office or unveiling the new sign? Or deciding to build her own tech and some moments here and there where she's actually doing that or struggling with it. IDK. I'm not a writer. But I just wanted more than the scraps she's been given. Not that I'd call a line every now and then a scrap.

I'd actually agree with @bijoux in that once her company is set up it can be used now and then like QC was. It really doesn't have to be much. I think people mistake wanting more for Felicity as wanting the show to be about her and that's just not true. 

My main issue this season is actually that I thought OTA were getting individual villains and yet, really, the only one who has had their own nemesis this whole season is Dinah. Cayden James was completely taken away from Felicity, we didn't even get a single scene beyond that one in 604, so we've seen nothing of her going up against someone. But someone who came into the show halfway through s5 gets everything thrown at her. Yeah, I'm bitter about it. I know Dragon was set up to be either Diggle's and then later Oliver's villain but I wouldn't even say that's accurate tbh. Instead we've had 14 episodes of this lingering BC vs BS crap that has no end in sight and I'm honestly sick of it. 

Every year I tell myself to lower my expectations and every year I fail. It's my own fault really. ?

Edited March 6, 2018 by Guest

[kes0704]

I wouldn’t be so annoyed about the almost non-existent company storyline for Felicity if they hadn’t failed to deliver on Cayden James as a villain for her.

Again, this is based on something the EP’s said, not something fans leaped to a conclusion about. Wendy specifically said, “Cayden James is a villain for both Oliver and Felicity”, but he wasn’t. Felicity had no direct contact with him outside of 604.

They wasted him on a father/MySon plot that ended up being meaningless because he was just being manipulated by the 3D printer king. 

Do I need to see endless office scenes for her? No. But I do need to her get more than what she’s had up to 614.  It feels like Dinah has had many more story points than Felicity this season, and that annoys me more than anything because she’s elevated because of her comic accurate name not her relevance to Oliver or the show in general.

Edited March 6, 2018 by kes0704

[EmilyBettFan]

If they can flashback twice to Dinah's boring old life they can give us a little something about Felicity. I mean they did talk about Felicity having something cool for the back half of the season. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by EmilyBettFan

[tangerine95]

The Cayden James stuff is what I'm most annoyed about.I mean sure I guess when Wendy was the one to hype him as Felicity's villain we probably should have known not to take it too seriously but I did because it was set up the previous season.He was introduced as a big hacker,the head of Helix which was Felicity's storyline and they made a big deal about the consequences of Felicity helping get him out from ARGUS.So it made a lot more sense to think they'd continue with that than that they would invent a random myson storyline for a lame parallel with Oliver and William.The company stuff wasn't something that would have ever been a big storyline all on its own unless they connected it to the main plot and thrown some drama on it.But it seems to me like they didn't have a plan and just did it because they teased it before and fans have been asking about it rather than finding a place for it this season.

Edited March 6, 2018 by tangerine95

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

My main issue this season is actually that I thought OTA were getting individual villains and yet, really, the only one who has had their own nemesis this whole season is Dinah. Cayden James was completely taken away from Felicity, we didn't even get a single scene beyond that one in 604, so we've seen nothing of her going up against someone. But someone who came into the show halfway through s5 gets everything thrown at her. Yeah, I'm bitter about it. I know Dragon was set up to be either Diggle's and then later Oliver's villain but I wouldn't even say that's accurate tbh. Instead we've had 14 episodes of this lingering BC vs BS crap that has no end in sight and I'm honestly sick of it. 

The BC vs BS flu and the horrible horrible OTA vs NoTA.

I wonder if the individual villains was what they originally planned for the season when they talked about it last summer and then for some reason it was changed.  If that's the case, it was a bad decision.  Both of these plots are like the Ra's al Ghul in s3, a good idea for a handful of episodes that ends up going up way too long.

[tangerine95]

Imo the group of villains stuff was only done to justify the necessity of the newbies.OTA wouldn't talk to them if they weren't outnumbered all the time so that would have been a problem for their team drama storyline which is such a huge focus this season.And also a way to include BS but not make her the big bad.I hoped it would mean villains for OTA which would be written with their characters and stories in mind but that's definitely not what happened.

[Guest]

The set up for individual villains was all there. Dragon for Diggle (and then later Oliver as GA). Anatoly for Oliver. Cayden for Felicity. BS for BC. Instead that just kind of faded away and it became more about BC vs BS. It's just an "incompetent writers distracted by their comic canon crap" problem, IMO. Shiny new toys and all that. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Guest

[insomniadreams88]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

My main issue this season is actually that I thought OTA were getting individual villains and yet, really, the only one who has had their own nemesis this whole season is Dinah. Cayden James was completely taken away from Felicity, we didn't even get a single scene beyond that one in 604, so we've seen nothing of her going up against someone. But someone who came into the show halfway through s5 gets everything thrown at her. Yeah, I'm bitter about it. I know Dragon was set up to be either Diggle's and then later Oliver's villain but I wouldn't even say that's accurate tbh. Instead we've had 14 episodes of this lingering BC vs BS crap that has no end in sight and I'm honestly sick of it. 

This. Especially since they then set Cayden up to be a villain for BC after he had BS kill Vince. (If Dragon hadn't killed him, I could see all the focus turning to Dinah wanting to kill Cayden for ordering Vince's death, with a side of Myson plot to involve Oliver.)

I know it's not true, but it really does feel like they're pushing Dinah into every single storyline on the show right now, while other characters (including Oliver!) have these threads that should be picked up soon or have been explored more already (instead of, say, in the last handful of episodes of the season). 

I saw a GIF set on Tumblr of EBR talking about Michael Emerson and it just made me bitter all over again that we didn't get the Felicity/Cayden scenes we deserved this season. 

[leopardprint]

17 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

The company stuff wasn't something that would have ever been a big storyline all on its own unless they connected it to the main plot and thrown some drama on it.But it seems to me like they didn't have a plan and just did it because they teased it before and fans have been asking about it rather than finding a place for it this season.

I checked out of this season when Cayden was Mysonned. Imagine if Felicity and Curtis had started their company and Cayden stole their tech to attack Star City, Oliver and Diggle could have gone after The 3D Printers Guild of Star City, BS decides to become an international jewel thief so Dinah has to frequently leave Star City and be out of communication. Also in the first episode of the season, Mayor Queen opens a new dog park dedicated to Rene who died in a tragic hockey mask accident. 

[apinknightmare]

I think the moral of the story here - and has been for several seasons now - is not to listen to Wendy or Marc, because nothing they tease ever comes into fruition (or at the very least never meets expectations, unless we're talking about how bad something could be). 

[Mary0360]

From memory, hasn't Emily had more screen time this season then Juliana, and it's actually David's screen time that's been cut back? So I don't think it's true that the season has been all about Dinah. It's just that her storyline sticks out like a sore thumb because it's both annoying, nonsensical and poorly acted. 

[Guest]

Screentime doesn't equal story, IMO. But YMMV of course. 

[Mary0360]

It seems though like people are implying that the reason Felicity doesn't have a storyline is because the writers are devoting all their time to Dinahs. And yet if that were true Dinah would have more screen time then Felicity. Even with a flash back storyline, Dinah hasn't over taken Felicity in screen time. So I don't think Felicity is by any means a background character this season.

 

Its true her screen time hasn't been entirely used independently for herself, but I feel like that's only because we've gotten more OTA and Team Arrow scenes because they want to strengthen and explore the two different team dynamics.

 

I mean, people also complained about lack of OTA last season and the writers have been devoting more time to them in a way they haven't since season 2. I guess the trade off is Felicity not having a Palmer Tech or Helix like major plot line right now.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Mary0360

[tennisgurl]

I think Felicity having a B plot with her company could work if the show took a freaking break every once in awhile, and did a few stand alone episodes. Then they could spend time with world building, have a comedy plot where Felicity tries to work, but keeps getting interrupted by superhero hijinks (like The Zeppho Buffy episode), or tie her company into getting the city its money back or something. There are ways to make a story like that interesting, it doesn't have to take over, nor does it have to be "Felecity files tax reports" everytime it cuts to her.

In general, I think the show could use more subplots to allow individual characters time for development. It doesn't have to be a million plots per character or anything, and you can still have an arc, but lately everything has been so PLOT PLOT PLOT, theres no time to breath. I think its one of the reasons this half assed Civil War arc is such a debacle. They're trying to rush through the plot so much, we dont have time to get to understand why the Newbies are so pissed, and we end up confused as to why this has all escalated from "I disagree with your methods" to "attack with an ax" so quickly. It just makes the Newbies look like assholes.* They need to slow down, and do some interesting villain of the week episodes, or something more character based or creative.

I mean, they are assholes, but I dont think the show wants us to think that, exactly.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

It seems though like people are implying that the reason Felicity doesn't have a storyline is because the writers are devoting all their time to Dinahs. And yet if that were true Dinah would have more screen time then Felicity. Even with a flash back storyline, Dinah hasn't over taken Felicity in screen time. So I don't think Felicity is by any means a background character this season.

 

Its true her screen time hasn't been entirely used independently for herself, but I feel like that's only because we've gotten more OTA and Team Arrow scenes because they want to strengthen and explore the two different team dynamics.

 

I mean, people also complained about lack of OTA last season and the writers have been devoting more time to them in a way they haven't since season 2. I guess the trade off is Felicity not having a Palmer Tech or Helix like major plot line right now.

 

Not implying, outright saying it actually, haha. Mainly because I don't think screentime equals story. Again YMMV but that's how I feel. I can list all the ways Dinah has had different story threads throughout this season in the way Felicity hasn't and yet Felicity still has screentime and very much feels like a background character in a lot of episodes. That's fine sometimes but not all the time, IMO.

And I really can't agree that they've devoted more time to OTA this season. At first it certainly looks that way and yet we've had more focus on the newbies side of things in this civil war crap. OTA are very much the supporting characters to the newbies in this whole mess of a storyline, IMO. But it is what it is. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Guest

[SmallScreenDiva]

One of the things that I keep seeing repeated in a lot of places (here, Twitter, FB, etc.) is "what are the writers thinking?!?!" I've asked several times this season myself. Then I realized whatever they're thinking audience reaction doesn't seem to be a part of it. Because whatever Arrow does, the ratings aren't exactly stinking, aren't they? Besides The CW said it doesn't care about live ratings. Arrow still sells quite well on Amazon, even with problematic seasons like Season 5. There's the Netflix deal, there's CW's streaming app. What I'm saying is, Arrow can tell whatever crap story it wants to tell, include all the crap characters WB wants it to add, sideline its stars (because at this point in shows lives anyway the main cast usually gets more rest as new people are brought in to take the heavier load) and it doesn't seem to matter if it sucks because people still watch and buy and talk about it. And isn't that was Pedowitz want? For people to talk about his shows? People seem to be talking about the noobs and BS so that's a win in terms of buzz. It probably won't reach previous levels when people got Arrow and Olicity trending on Twitter and Arrow was a mainstay on the Nielsen Social but people are talking about this crap Civil War. I mean, there's been 5 pages worth of chatter from the last episode. I guess what I'm saying is I don't expect Arrow to ever get back to what I think is good because there doesn't seem to be an incentive for it. They seem to be doing just fine being mediocre.

Edited March 8, 2018 by SmallScreenDiva

[ladylaw99]

I can't believe I am saying this but 5B is looking so much better right now than 6B.  Felicity had a story, Oliver was still the main character of his show (and I didn't even like Oliver that much in season 5) and there was a villain played by a actor I really liked. Downfall there was never enough Diggle but then again there is never enough Diggle IMO.

I have always had a love/hate relationship with Oliver but I always cared.  These writers have sacrifice his character more times then necessary for plot.  I know other characters have also been put through the ringer but the show was always about Oliver.  I am not interest in an episode this late in the season about the villains especially Diaz, I don't understand half the sh$t that comes out of his mouth.  He bores me. He has absolutely no charisma.   Watching him is like watching paint dry, he is so boring and in my opinion a non threat.  Oliver could kick his ass in his sleep.  

I feel everytime the show moves away from the core characters it suffers. 6.19 and now from the sounds of it 6.20 do not sound very good.  

OTA needs to be a  spin off to another network with better writers.  I have said it before but, I can only imagine what good writers could do with these three.