Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[BkWurm1]

Or at least, I think they love the idea of her and who she could've been too much

 

The problem is Dinah Laurel Lance aka the Black Canary is a really cool chick (pun intended) it's just they never figured out how to portray that on screen (which IS their fault since hind sight has provided a hundred ways they could have at least not rigged the game against her. 

 

 

I mean, oy with the poodles already...

 

And I love you a little more.  :)

Edited September 17, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Morrigan2575]

They love her, they really, really love her.  Remember when AK thought the reason people were unhappy with Laurel's story was because she hadn't put on the fishnets yet?  There are also some fans who really love her and MG and AK probably pay more attention to those tweets.

 

I'm not convinced that they love Laurel or love KC to the extent that people claim.  I'm not saying they hate her or anything just that I don't think they love the character so much that they're willing to destroy sacrifice everything for her.  They're not blinded by their love the way the EPs for Smallville seemed to be when it came to Lana/KK. 

 

I think they want the audience to like the character and the actress because then everything works, they can continue the show without dealing with an unhappy actress, unhappy fans, having to change direction etc.  I also think there's a bit of stubbornness and ego involved.  With killing off Tommy and Moira it was the EPs choice they made the decision.  If they were to get rid of Laurel (kill or have her leave town) it's in reaction to fans and they would have to admit that they screwed up totally.

[writersblock51]

 

With killing off Tommy and Moira it was the EPs choice they made the decision.  If they were to get rid of Laurel (kill or have her leave town) it's in reaction to fans and they would have to admit that they screwed up totally.

 

Morrigan2575, I think you're right - there's more to hanging onto Laurel on screen than 'loving' her or the actress.  Admitting that the casting of one of the leads is a HUGE thing to deal with, and I think that's something that DC, Warner Bros, the CW and the EPs are trying to avoid. 

 

But there is a precedent of sorts - the Rachel Dawes recast in the Dark Knight trilogy.  DC and Warner Bros have been through this before with the stakes far, far higher than a show on the CW... And if Laurel exits the screen, in a non-death fashion, then a re-cast isn't even necessary.  The show already has a leading lady that many fans & critics enjoy. And they have a Black Canary that has generally been well received, too.  

 

I think getting rid of Laurel is ultimately the best casting move the show can do for it's long term viability, I truly do. 

[looptab]

The thing is, if they ever got rid of her (which, sadly, I don't think they will) the risk of backlash is huge. It'd be better if they'd find a way to write her consistently, without butchering the show (which, sadly, I don't think they will). Fingers crossed!

Edited September 16, 2014 by looptab

[Velocity23]

Why cant she just move to Central City and be on the Flash x.x 

[JJ928]

I'm not convinced that they love Laurel or love KC to the extent that people claim.  I'm not saying they hate her or anything just that I don't think they love the character so much that they're willing to destroy sacrifice everything for her.  They're not blinded by their love the way the EPs for Smallville seemed to be when it came to Lana/KK. 

I totally agree with you. I've never thought the show-runners liked/cared for Laurel. I think her writing or lack of, and the fact that both seasons most of her scenes ended on the cutting room floor, is proof enough. I think they're trying to make the most of a bad situation, but I don't believe the Laurel character is particularly safe. I do think she was trying to gain a following this summer with all of the cons she did, no idea if it worked, and I believe they're keeping Sara around just in case. Until they remove Sara from the equation (which will royally piss me off), I'm not convinced there's a real end-game for Laurel's character. The funny thing is I don't even hate Laurel, I just don't care. At this point, she takes up time that could be given to Diggle, Thea, Malcolm, hell bring back Helena. I'm crossing my fingers that we get to keep Sara.

[MsSchadenfreude]

from the spoiler thread 

 

I absolutely don't want Laurel or Sara to die or Thea, Nyssa, Felicity or Lyla for that matter.   I am getting really tired of women dying on this show, so some guy can wring his hands about how sad he is and it's all his fault.  You think it's bad for you, try being the woman who's dead. Laurel bores me, but this idea that she needs to die annoys the hell out of me.  Woman aren't disposable, even bland boring fictional ones.

Edited September 16, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[Sakura12]

Laurel doesn't need to die she just needs to move far far away, preferably another universe (ie: another tv show that's better suited for the actress). But I will take Laurel moves to Europe and talked about very sparingly by Quentin or Sara. 

[tv echo]

The easy fix is just to have Laurel go live with her mother.  That way, they can always bring her back if they want.

[Sakura12]

That's the thing, I don't want them to ever bring her back. If she leaves, it should stay that way. 

[Angel12d]

They are never going to get rid of Laurel. Never. But I wish they would maybe sit down with KC and have a long talk about her character. She needs to be better informed. She needs to make better decisions with her acting choices. I know the writing for her character has been seriously problematic (I mean, it was downhill pretty much from the Pilot with the backstory they gave with O/L) but some of KC's choices leave a lot to be desired (the weird manic grin when she was given the leather jacket for example). 

 

The thing is, I want to like Laurel because she will always be a part of the show but KC doesn't make it easy. All the times I'm sure I'm supposed to be sympathetic with her character I just want to change the channel. It's not working and the writing can't always be blamed for that.

 

I don't usually like to compare actresses because it's not a competition but look at EBR. She's had some cringe-worthy lines that I'm pretty sure would make me want to tear my hair out coming from anyone else but EBR somehow makes Felicity so endearing and likeable. She's taking crappy writing material and making it work. That's what actors are supposed to do. Writing only goes so far. The rest is up to the actor and director.

 

I don't know if this is in the right thread so I'll leave it here for now.

[SonofaBiscuit]

The easy fix is just to have Laurel go live with her mother.  That way, they can always bring her back if they want.

 

That's the thing, I don't want them to ever bring her back. If she leaves, it should stay that way. 

 

See, this is why I want Laurel dead (and I mean actually dead, not Malcolm dead).  If Laurel is sent away, there is always the threat that she can come back.  They'd send her away for a season, I'd really start loving the show, and then they'd announce that she's coming back.  Ugh, that would be awful for me.  I would normally just wish for an annoying character to be written out, but for me, Laurel is beyond annoying.  That being said, I don't actually think that the EPs are going to kill her off because they've used that tactic far too many times now.  If they really want to get rid of her, I think Laurel will be sent away (just please don't send her over to the Flash because I may want to watch that show). 

[Morrigan2575]

Actually it's not that easy.  If this was a cartoon or a comic, sure they could bring the character back whenever they felt like it.  But bringing an actor back depends (a lot) on the actor and the state of the departure. 

[TanyaKay]

Morrigan2575, I think you're right - there's more to hanging onto Laurel on screen than 'loving' her or the actress.  Admitting that the casting of one of the leads is a HUGE thing to deal with, and I think that's something that DC, Warner Bros, the CW and the EPs are trying to avoid. 

 

But there is a precedent of sorts - the Rachel Dawes recast in the Dark Knight trilogy.  DC and Warner Bros have been through this before with the stakes far, far higher than a show on the CW... And if Laurel exits the screen, in a non-death fashion, then a re-cast isn't even necessary.  The show already has a leading lady that many fans & critics enjoy. And they have a Black Canary that has generally been well received, too.  

 

I think getting rid of Laurel is ultimately the best casting move the show can do for it's long term viability, I truly do. 

 

If I am not wrong, it was Katie Holmes who walked out of that character because Tom Cruise told her not to do that role and I think she got pregnant with her daughter soon after doing Batman Begins (I am not so sure about this timeline though). As she was not too great, WB and DC quietly let her go and they cast another actress who was just as disappointing if not more in that character. They never really fired her.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Actually it's not that easy.  If this was a cartoon or a comic, sure they could bring the character back whenever they felt like it.  But bringing an actor back depends (a lot) on the actor and the state of the departure. 

 

I suppose if KC is forced out against her will, she probably won't be eager to make any more appearances in the future (fingers crossed).  What worries me is the scenario where Laurel leaves the show alive and KC is on good terms with the EPs.  Shado and Tommy are dead and they still manage to show up occasionally.  If KC is happy when she leaves, she might be more than willing to make guest appearances if her schedule allows.  DO. NOT. WANT. 

[ohjoy]

I suppose if KC is forced out against her will, she probably won't be eager to make any more appearances in the future (fingers crossed).  What worries me is the scenario where Laurel leaves the show alive and KC is on good terms with the EPs.  Shado and Tommy are dead and they still manage to show up occasionally.  If KC is happy when she leaves, she might be more than willing to make guest appearances if her schedule allows.  DO. NOT. WANT. 

 

I'll take what I can get, though. If she leaves on good terms, if they only use her for flashbacks, if they drop her to recurring status -- less FF time is less. I'm willing to at least see where they go this upcoming season -- if they somehow manage to transform Laurel into a workable character (even accounting for sometimes questionable acting choice's on KC's part), I'll be impressed. I mean, Roy Harper was a workable character for me even despite CH's acting choices (or lack thereof) in S1, so if the writing can be fixed, I can at least somewhat look past the acting. But I don't see how at the moment that Laurel can become tenable without a reduction in screentime. Putting her in BC or L/O roles are not options for me.

[statsgirl]

THIS. I guess sometimes we can't let go of an idea of someone, even when we should. Just like O/L were in love with the idea of each other, the EP's seem to be in love with their original idea of Laurel even though it's clearly not working. Ugh. I was trying to keep my fingers crossed that they'd learned about Laurel over two seasons worth of mistakes but that dialogue hint has thrown me off. 

I think there are two main problems:  that the Black Canary is linked with Green Arrow; and that AK wrote the GA/BC comics.   The first means that now that that Dinah Laurel Lance has been on the show from the beginning, there are going to be viewers who won't like it when she leaves because she's an iconic comic character. The second means that AK and MG, who are the comic fanboys, are going to want to keep her.  Not everyone has trouble ditching something they've created when it's not working but for other people it can be a big problem (me!) and I get the feeling that AK is in that group.  And given that sometimes both AK and MG show a superficial understanding of what is working and what isn't (KC Emmy-worthy scene), they may be scratching their heads as to why Laurel isn't working.

 

I'll take what I can get, though. If she leaves on good terms, if they only use her for flashbacks, if they drop her to recurring status -- less FF time is less. I'm willing to at least see where they go this upcoming season -- if they somehow manage to transform Laurel into a workable character (even accounting for sometimes questionable acting choice's on KC's part), I'll be impressed. I mean, Roy Harper was a workable character for me even despite CH's acting choices (or lack thereof) in S1, so if the writing can be fixed, I can at least somewhat look past the acting. But I don't see how at the moment that Laurel can become tenable without a reduction in screentime. Putting her in BC or L/O roles are not options for me.

I think it's easier with CH because his character isn't as big in the GA comics are BC is, and CH's ego isn't as big as KC's.  I wish they felt they could write to KC's acting strengths but they don't seem to want to go there with Laurel.

[icandigit]

Since they think Laurel is so awesome, give her a storyline away from my favorites So I can fast-foward easily. If she is the BC she can have her on thing. Then I can pretend she's on another show.

[wonderwall]

I think it's easier with CH because his character isn't as big in the GA comics are BC is, and CH's ego isn't as big as KC's.  I wish they felt they could write to KC's acting strengths but they don't seem to want to go there with Laurel.

Speaking of ego, I ran across a few comments on how fame is getting into SAs head and one person legit says he's developing a 'god-complex'. 

 

I ridiculously disagree, but it's interesting to see people say this. 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Speaking of ego, I ran across a few comments on how fame is getting into SAs head and one person legit says he's developing a 'god-complex'.

I ridiculously disagree, but it's interesting to see people say this.

I will take Olicity haters for $400, Alex.

Funny how everyone lived him until SDCC.

[TanyaKay]

Funny how everyone loved him until SDCC.

 

what did Stephen do at SDCC? I thought he was fine.

[statsgirl]

He said that there is only one woman in Oliver's life next season and that's Felicity.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

what did Stephen do at SDCC? I thought he was fine.

Nutshell: "Lauriver is dead. Long live Olicity."

[DrSpaceman10]

what did Stephen do at SDCC? I thought he was fine.

 

SA said "there's one woman for Oliver this year, that woman is Felicity" and "[Oliver/Sara and Oliver/Laurel] those ships have sailed" etc.

Edited September 17, 2014 by drspaceman10

[blixie]

"is it Thea?" "(WTF? thought bubble) No. It's FELICITY." Hee that will never not crack me up.

[DrSpaceman10]

I think it's better that SA was honest instead of giving people false hope like the EPs tend to do.

[catrox14]

Speaking of ego, I ran across a few comments on how fame is getting into SAs head and one person legit says he's developing a 'god-complex'. 

 

I ridiculously disagree, but it's interesting to see people say this. 

 

Yeah, that Stephen Amell. How dare he use his fame and power for a bunch of random charitable things on Facebook, raising money and stuff for worthy causes like "Fuck Cancer"   What a dick!

[Sakura12]

I'm neutral on Olicity, but I love Stephen and how interactive he is with his fans and that he raises money for charity. 

[wingster55]

Funnily enough at SDCC (or close to it) he also said he didn't care who Oliver ended up with as long as it made sense for the story. Which I can buy..if his personal wishes were being served for the show's decisions...well pretty sure Moira and especially Tommy would still be alive. 

[statsgirl]

In Montreal last weekend, one of the audience  said how great he was for doing all that stuff for charity and he said he's the same person he was before but now he has a platform. and he can do more.

 

He's pretty much exhausted from all the hours working on the show and falling asleep in airports going to cons for the fans and Q&As and promotions on his FB page. I'd like to see the people who think he's got a giant ego spend one week in his shoes.

[strikera0]

I haven't noticed any changes in Stephen Amell personally, but I also don't camp out on his facebook page so I am probably not a good judge. That being said, I can kind of understand why certain factions of the online fandom may not be all too hot on him right now. Just put yourself in the shoes of Laurel/Oliver fans for a second. As Olicity shippers, how would you feel if Stephen Amell was constantly shoving his love for Oliver/Laurel down your throats to the point of adopting fandom nicknames (Captain Amell) or repeating fandom memes that are clearly untrue (e.g. Oliver never cracked a smile until Felicity came along)? Or if EBR was being openly bashed by Laurel/Oliver shippers on SA's official facebook page and he never stood up for her and called those "fans" out? Surely, you wouldn't like any of that either and start to become frustrated after a while, too.

[wonderwall]

I haven't noticed any changes in Stephen Amell personally, but I also don't camp out on his facebook page so I am probably not a good judge. That being said, I can kind of understand why certain factions of the online fandom may not be all too hot on him right now. Just put yourself in the shoes of Laurel/Oliver fans for a second. As Olicity shippers, how would you feel if Stephen Amell was constantly shoving his love for Oliver/Laurel down your throats to the point of adopting fandom nicknames (Captain Amell) or repeating fandom memes that are clearly untrue (e.g. Oliver never cracked a smile until Felicity came along)? Or if EBR was being openly bashed by Laurel/Oliver shippers on SA's official facebook page and he never stood up for her and called those "fans" out? Surely, you wouldn't like any of that either and start to become frustrated after a while, too.

I actually agree with this? Sort of? It would really suck if that happened to me, but in the end, I don't think I would call a person out by saying they're developing a god complex because of a ship. Oh well, people will do whatever they please and there's nothing you can do about it. 

[iluv2fly]

I want to bundle up all of these comments and give them a big ol' virtual hug. I am becoming fearful that they will be devoting too much screen time to this already two-season fiasco of a character. I want to be able to enjoy the whole show, and I cannot while she is there. The show is called Arrow, not Arrow and BC. Her presence adds nothing, it isn't mandatory. You could delete all of her scenes and the overall plot would never feel it. We have a great BC in CL who comes in on a recurring basis — it's great.

Why the EPs are trying again is beyond my comprehension when the integrity of the show is at stake. My sister binge watched S1&2 this summer. She knew I watched but I never discussed, and her first question she texted me during viewing was when is L leaving the show. She was shocked she lived through the finale and wasn't happy. Lol. I told her she's NOT ALONE.

Anyway, I just wanted to hop on and voice my frustration, and that I sincerely hope and pray that this season's cutting room floor has the Laurel magnet setting on high and that by the end of Season she is G-O-N-E :)

[wingster55]

"is it Thea?" "(WTF? thought bubble) No. It's FELICITY."

 

If only it was Thea. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by wingster55

[Chaser]

It would suck if I was a Laurel/Oliver fan. Doesn't make it fair for sure, but I get why L/O fans would feel slighted. Still, they shouldn't take it out SA. That being said: Sometimes I roll my eyes at KC and thats probably not fair either.

 

Side Note: He really is an Olicity fan isn't he? I think shippers always say that about the actor or actress involved, but he really does seem to favor Olicity.

[wonderwall]

If only it was Thea. 

Now that's incestuous :p 

[Orion]

If they weren't doing Olicity, I would actually prefer it rather than being strung along for season after season. I would view the stance he is taking as a kindness. Either I would find something else I loved about the show or I could move on to a show that is doing a storyline that I prefer. 

 

And after witnessing L/O shippers tweeting to MG and EBR repeatedly this week that she got her job on the show by sleeping with the producers and no one responded to that stuff I don't think they get in the middle of fandom nonsense when it comes from either side and IMO SA is right to stay above it.  

[willpwr]

The way I see it is it's his job to promote whatever gets fans talking, thankfully, I'm not much of a shipper, that's not the primary focus of the show for me. During S1, he was busy promoting Oliver/Laurel, then he moved on to Olicity after it appears he and the EP's had talked and he knew the direction that season was heading in. To me him reposting meme's wouldn't be a slight to me, though, it's just him having fun, I don't take that personally. He is professional in his interviews and speaks highly of his coworkers, that to me says more about his character than when he's silly.

[wonderwall]

Side Note: He really is an Olicity fan isn't he? I think shippers always say that about the actor or actress involved, but he really does seem to favor Olicity.

I think it's because SA himself loves the Felicity character :p He truly does light up when talking about him. 

[wingster55]

Now that's incestuous :p 

I ship Queencest :P

...I'll take the rest of my response to Spoilers

[Sakura12]

Laurel fans and L/O shippers have a right to be upset, however they shouldn't go around insulting the producers and the actors on the show. Arguing among the fandom is one thing, bashing an actress through her own social media is an entirely different thing and I wish it would stop, but I fear with the anonymity of the internet it never will. 

[strikera0]

I actually agree with this? Sort of? It would really suck if that happened to me, but in the end, I don't think I would call a person out by saying they're developing a god complex because of a ship. Oh well, people will do whatever they please and there's nothing you can do about it. 

 

Please, don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the actor bashing at all. All I'm saying is that I can see where it's coming from and in light of the Twitter shit storm that rained down on the producers after they compared Oliver/Laurel to Lois & Clark, it's obvious that parts of the Olicity fandom wouldn't act any differently if the shoe was on the other foot. Shipper groups always love to pretend that they are better than the other side, but the reality is that they all act the same and no side is better than the other.

 

To me him reposting meme's wouldn't be a slight to me, though, it's just him having fun, I don't take that personally. He is professional in his interviews and speaks highly of his coworkers, that to me says more about his character than when he's silly.

 

The "Oliver has never cracked a smile until Felicity came along" meme isn't a meme that he has only reposted on his facebook page, though. That is a meme that he has repeatedly mentioned in interviews and it makes him look a bit silly because it's clearly untrue.

Edited September 17, 2014 by strikera0

[Chaser]

The only way that makes any sense to me is because I feel like Oliver Queen was playing 'Oliver Queen' when he first returned. That it took awhile for him to really feel genuine back home. I also think that Stephen Amell kinda put himself into the moment; he broke character so maybe so did 'Oliver Queen.'

 

Thats all I got on the comment...

[wonderwall]

Please, don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the actor bashing at all. All I'm saying is that I can see where it's coming from and in light of the Twitter shit storm that rained on the producers after they compared Oliver/Laurel to Lois & Clark, it's obvious that parts of the Olicity fandom wouldn't act any differently if the shoe was on the other side. Shipper groups always love to pretend that they are better than the other side, but the reality is that they all act the same and no side is better than the other.

Oh no! I totally got u :) Oh and I know! Part of the Olicity fandom is a really fearsome thing to behold. Really, really fearsome. Although to be fair, it wasn't only the Olicity fandom to complain when AK compared Laurel/Oliver to Lois/Clark. I honestly don't condone any bashing from any side of the fandom, but then again, me condemning the bashers is the equivalent to the UN and their so called 'sanctions'. Doesn't help at all :p 

 

 

The "Oliver has never cracked a smile until Felicity came along" meme isn't a meme that he has only reposted on his facebook page, though. That is a meme that he has repeatedly mentioned in interviews and it makes him look a bit silly because it's clearly untrue.

I don't think SA said that Oliver only really smiled when Felicity came along (he obviously smiled when he first saw Thea, I think he said that, that scene with Felicity was the first time he broke character and smiled? I could be wrong though. 

[statsgirl]

I've been on the wrong side of a pairing when the show-runners changed and so did the OTP ship but this

And after witnessing L/O shippers tweeting to MG and EBR repeatedly this week that she got her job on the show by sleeping with the producers

is just very, very wrong.

 

I too think it's better to know if your pairing won't happen in the near future if it's not going to work out.  Learn that TV is an inconstant mistress and move on.

 

My sister binge watched S1&2 this summer. She knew I watched but I never discussed, and her first question she texted me during viewing was when is L leaving the show. She was shocked she lived through the finale and wasn't happy.

That's the reaction I see from everyone who got into the show without going through the comic book fandom first.

The "Oliver has never cracked a smile until Felicity came along" meme isn't a meme that he has only reposted on his facebook page, though. That is a meme that he has repeatedly mentioned in interviews and it makes him look a bit silly because it's clearly untrue.

I thought it was true  He was talking about Present Day Oliver, and as far as I can remember, while there were polite social smiles that weren't real or smiles that were expected of him but didn't go past the lock he had on his emotions, that was the first genuine smile he gave and it was because SA broke character.

Edited September 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

Please, don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the actor bashing at all. All I'm saying is that I can see where it's coming from and in light of the Twitter shit storm that rained on the producers after they compared Oliver/Laurel to Lois & Clark, it's obvious that parts of the Olicity fandom wouldn't act any differently if the shoe was on the other side. Shipper groups always love to pretend that they are better than the other side, but the reality is that they all act the same and no side is better than the other.

 

That's the reason I stopped shipping any couples. It's not worth it to get so overly invested in whether or not a couple will get together or not. I just enjoy watching most of the characters as individuals. 

[wingster55]

that was the first genuine smile he gave and it was because SA broke character.

 

I think he genuinely smiled at various people in the pilot. His family, Tommy due to being glad to see him. 

If SA never broke character in ep 3 there was ep 6 (for instance) when he was joking and laughing with Thea that seemed genuine to me

[strikera0]

I thought it was true  He was talking about Present Day Oliver, and as far as I can remember, while there were polite social smiles that weren't real or smiles that were expected of him but didn't go past the lock he had on his emotions, that was the first genuine smile he gave and it was because SA broke character.

 

Well, I respectfully disagree. This smile/laugh right here looks very real to me:

 

[willpwr]

Not trying to be snarky but wouldn't SA know better than anyone when he broke character for the first time and gave a genuine smile and not just a scripted one? 

[blixie]

I think his smiles with family/friends were extremely *melancholy*, almost always tinged with sadness and loss, and the burden that he was lying his face off to them. But Felicity was the first time I thought he was genuinely taken out of that melancholy. Her babbling took him out of his infinite sadness and amoral agenda, and of course he didn't really feel obligated to her in the ways he did to people who knew him before he died.