Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I've been meaning to go watch those last four seasons, since it's on Hulu now.  I haven't done it yet because I keep wondering whether I should start from the beginning again, since it's been so long and I'm sure there's a lot I've forgotten.  But I just can't get up the enthusiasm.

Now, I'm admitting to being totally biased, but I'd say just watch season seven for the awesome friendship between Clark and Chloe here, and despite what was written, and spoken, you can see that Clark loves Chloe, and his spouting his wuv for Lana is like, just rote, and there's no emotion or feeling behind it. Plus their take on Bizarro. And Bart Allen! Cyborg! A Black Canary that is believable and rocks those fishnet stockings!

Don't bother with seasons 8-10 unless you're a fan of Durance.  And wow, you can tell the hole that the departures of Rosenbaum and Glover left when they departed at the end of season seven and returned at the end of season 10 (Glover for a handful, and Rosenbaum only for the finale (10 minutes, but it was an AWESOME 10 minutes)).

But others who who have watched, may feel differently.

[Starfish35]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Now, I'm admitting to being totally biased, but I'd say just watch season seven for the awesome friendship between Clark and Chloe here, and despite what was written, and spoken, you can see that Clark loves Chloe, and his spouting his wuv for Lana is like, just rote, and there's no emotion or feeling behind it. Plus their take on Bizarro. And Bart Allen! Cyborg! A Black Canary that is believable and rocks those fishnet stockings!

Don't bother with seasons 8-10 unless you're a fan of Durance.  And wow, you can tell the hole that the departures of Rosenbaum and Glover left when they departed at the end of season seven and returned at the end of season 10 (Glover for a handful, and Rosenbaum only for the finale (10 minutes, but it was an AWESOME 10 minutes)).

But others who who have watched, may feel differently.

Taking to Mind Your Surroundings:

[Mellowyellow]

I gave away all my Harry Potter books when my ship didn't happen.

Will probably have to close my AO3 account if Olicity don't make it! Makes me so sad!

I wonder if they'll retcon Olicity if they do end the ship like they did Lauriver. 

Throw in a bunch of scenes to make the shippers feel better. Or throw in a bunch of scenes to really torch the relationship and make it look like it was never that great and alienate all of us shippers once and for all. 

Oh this has so many ways of going south.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Mellowyellow
I needed to whinge more

[MaisyDaisy]

25 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I gave away all my Harry Potter books when my ship didn't happen.

Will probably have to close my AO3 account if Olicity don't make it! Makes me so sad!

I wonder if they'll retcon Olicity if they do end the ship like they did Lauriver. 

Throw in a bunch of scenes to make the shippers feel better. Or throw in a bunch of scenes to really torch the relationship and make it look like it was never that great and alienate all of us shippers once and for all. 

Oh this has so many ways of going south.

Who did you ship in HP? I ship Hemione with everyone.

I think Olicity will happen again, I am just not sure how much longer they will stuff around, or if they will hint at BC/GA before, which will just make me nope out. Because I have had one foot out the door from the BM disaster and all the erosion of characters that's come since then.

[Mellowyellow]

12 minutes ago, MaisyDaisy said:

Who did you ship in HP? I ship Hemione with everyone.

Hermione/Harry.

Omg I was sooooo into it! i used to read a tonne of fanfic on Portkey.org.

My hubby (then boyfriend) would read Order of the Phoenix and took notes on all the potential shippy moments and we discussed it after. 

The forum on Portkey was awesome too but the memories of it are haunting me for Olicity. I'm reliving all my HP trauma again. And JK Rowling was actually a good writer! There is no telling what these hacks will do to butcher Olicity.

[thegirlsleuth]

14 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

My hubby (then boyfriend) would read Order of the Phoenix and took notes on all the potential shippy moments and we discussed it after. 

 

That's ADORABLE.  Sounds like you guys are a good match!

[BkWurm1]

23 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Hermione/Harry.

Omg I was sooooo into it! i used to read a tonne of fanfic on Portkey.org.

My hubby (then boyfriend) would read Order of the Phoenix and took notes on all the potential shippy moments and we discussed it after. 

The forum on Portkey was awesome too but the memories of it are haunting me for Olicity. I'm reliving all my HP trauma again. And JK Rowling was actually a good writer! There is no telling what these hacks will do to butcher Olicity.

Taking to Small Talk/Quiver

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, MaisyDaisy said:

I was giggling over the logistics of it;

"oh....she totally just left her chair, hopefully it's not rented"

"I bet she wishes she has worn flats"

"I hope there's no stairs in the building"

"won't she get tired after not using all those muscles for so long"

I pictured Oliver running after with the chair yelling "hey don't forget this, you won't get your deposit back just leaving it" (I know she was rich and probably brought it outright)

Aside from being an on the nose depiction of a physical disability, it was cheesy AF, and just compounded all the cheap drama that had just been played out over the last few episodes.

My favorite bit was this: she leaves Oliver sitting in the loft, in full on sad panda mode. Then, when we return to her storyline/ break up bullshit, she's living in the loft, and Oliver's leaving. WHAT. The fuck was the point of the dramatic walk out the door, then? Did she wait for five minutes and then stagger back in, all "Actually, I'm staying, and you can GTFO."

These writers are geniuses I tell you. 

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I feel like the only reason they had Felicity walk in that moment was because they didn't want her still in a wheelchair while they had everyone checking to see how Oliver was doing post-breakup and all Felicity got the pistachio line from Donna. It was just awful all around. 

ETA: I still don't get the timeline of 414/415. Curtis gives Felicity the chip at the engagement party/William is kidnapped in 414. 415 opens with Felicity in PT already. Did she have the surgery the night of the party? 

I imagined there was a time jump between the engagement party and the following episode. The PT session she had with Paul was implied to be after the surgery, wasn't it? I didn't have trouble imagining that it took Samantha a week of Will missing to circle to Oliver.

[kismet]

10 hours ago, ladylaw99 said:

I think that is why I am so bitter. Oliver and Felicity worked.  Their relationship for me was a bonus. I was actually wondering if the writers would have enough guts to go there with them.  My biggest fear was if these writers did go there I was worried that they would feel the need to separate them and would end up ruining their friendship, which was so much more important to me. There was never unnecessary  drama between OTA and then later on with Olicity until the writers could not think of a way to end their relationship.

Now my worst fear has come true. The writers not only ruined a good relationship for Oliver but more importantly for me they ruined a great friendship. They are like two strangers pretending to be friends. I don't recognize their characters sometimes. As much as I love Felicity, even she has done questionable things.  If I knew that this would have been the outcome, I would have preferred Oliver and Felicity never being in a romantic  relationship. 

I am bitter that the show is coming back next week and I am not even excited. I am bitter that the spoilers are giving me nothing to look forward too. I am bitter that my OTA seems non-existing.

Ditto. And more importantly, the chemistry of OTA & O/F is what made the show so fun to watch. Now it just feels a little too procedural. Everyone is going through the motions. I could have taken years of loaded eye glances and banter that was so much more than just banter.

I'm also bitter because I signed onto an old youtube account and it randomly brought up all these old OTA/Arrow/Olicty vids & subscriptions. Rather than being excited or interested in watching them. I was angry that youtube decided to remind me how much I used to love perusing it for the fanvids. Especially the Humor ones.

As for coming back next week, I barely even remembered its return date. I don't even follow the spoilers. Either I will dislike them. OR more likely myself or people here will piece them together in a way far superior to the writers and then be mad at the show all over again. I'd rather be immensely disappointed and angry at the show in real time, than know ahead that they are gonna F it all up, again. Although I do miss speculating and putting the pieces together, that is one of the primary reasons I watch TV. SO bitter!!

[insomniadreams88]

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

I imagined there was a time jump between the engagement party and the following episode. The PT session she had with Paul was implied to be after the surgery, wasn't it? I didn't have trouble imagining that it took Samantha a week of Will missing to circle to Oliver.

Yeah, PT had to be after the surgery. And at least a couple of days, I would imagine. She couldn't have gone from the operating table to PT. 

That then raises another question - how long was William missing before Oliver found out? And say it hadn't been DD who had him - would Samantha have told Oliver? What if it had been some random person who took him? So many problems with that entire storyline.

[bijoux]

As far as Samantha knew at that point, it was a random person.

[ComicFan777]

Don't remember the episode that well, but I think it was two days from the time William got kidnapped and Samantha telling Oliver about it.  I think she only went to talk to Oliver because Barry was at the crime scene and told her to talk to him.

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, bijoux said:

As far as Samantha knew at that point, it was a random person.

Exactly. But if it had been a random person, that person wouldn't have contacted Oliver because that person wouldn't have known to, so he wouldn't have found out that way and it didn't seem like Samantha was planning to tell him... 

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Exactly. But if it had been a random person, that person wouldn't have contacted Oliver because that person wouldn't have known to, so he wouldn't have found out that way and it didn't seem like Samantha was planning to tell him... 

I fully believe she wouldn't have told him without Barry's involvement. 

[Chaser]

Wow I really don't remember the episode well. Barry knew and didn't help?

[kismet]

On 1/17/2017 at 7:01 AM, Mellowyellow said:

I was looking up something on "The Origin of Felicity Smoak" so I went in that episode thread.

OMG! Everyone was happy back then! It was like the twilight zone!!!!! 

Do you guys remember when you were last happy with the show?

NO... I mean I've had episodes in s4 that I enjoyed. And a few moments in s5. But as a whole probably the summer between s3 & s4, that is when I remember last being fully happy with show. S3 was not perfect, but looking back it didn't make me as angry or sad as I am now.

I sometimes wonder without this forum, would I even care about Arrow at all anymore. There is almost nothing left in the show for me. Who knew back to basics would be the quickest way to lose me?

Edited January 19, 2017 by kismet

[statsgirl]

On 2017-01-18 at 9:02 AM, Chaser said:

Wow I really don't remember the episode well. Barry knew and didn't help?

I think Barry was busy with one of his superspeedster villains at the time so he told Samantha to go see Oliver and after a few days she finally did.  Between Samantha's brains and Oliver's brains, is it any surprise that William's finest moments are in colouring?

I'm so bored with 'back to basics'.  I really don't understand all the praise for this season.  I used to rewatch the episodes the next day to catch what I missed, now it's just a waste of time and even less enjoyable than first viewing.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think Barry was busy with one of his superspeedster villains at the time so he told Samantha to go see Oliver and after a few days she finally did.  Between Samantha's brains and Oliver's brains, is it any surprise that William's finest moments are in colouring?

I'm so bored with 'back to basics'.  I really don't understand all the praise for this season.  I used to rewatch the episodes the next day to catch what I missed, now it's just a waste of time and even less enjoyable than first viewing.

Didn't Felicity contact Barry (after checking with Oliver that it would be okay to tell him, only to find out that Barry only knew - that reminds me of how much I hated that, with Felicity finding out everyone who knew before her), then Barry contacted Samantha, who then came to Star City? And I think this happened after William had already been kidnapped for a couple of days, so Samantha knew already, didn't call Oliver and probably wouldn't have if Barry hadn't gone to see her. 

The problem is that the "back to basics" we're seeing in S5 is "we're just going to forget everything we've done over the past 4 seasons but sprinkle in a few moments to remind you of what we consider the 'basics,' like Oliver killing because no one can know his secret." 

[statsgirl]

So Samantha's son was kidnapped but she wasn't going to tell the boy's father, who was running for mayor of Star City at the time?  The stupid is off the charts.

I think 'back to basics' means lots of fights and no real relationships other than for plot.  That's not even what season 1 was.

[tangerine95]

The back to basics stuff is so dumb imo because they seem to mean literally. Like repeating the same beats with new characters, regressing character development and even totally copying scenes from season 1 which looks so forced. They seem like they really let all the hyping of season 1 and 2 get to their heads but I feel like they should have known that past seasons are usually remembered better than they actually were as more time passes. 

[kismet]

I really believe the writers & TPTB do not understand the audience or the critics at all. It's a fundamental disconnect. They don't understand the problems and they misunderstand the praise. They would probably be better at creating ARROW, if they were not allowed to get any feedback at all. Because they don't use the feedback in a productive manner. It's really kind of bizarre how they can take positive feedback and somehow make it have a negative impact on the show.

I also think they thought the major problems in s3/4 were the relationships which is why they reset all of them, when really s4's problems were prioritizing the plot over the characters. So they doubled down on plot and completely wiped out the relationships, when relationships were the only thing saving the show from become a complete paint-by-number imitation of Arrow. I do think if I was invested in Arrow's plot, I have seen some improvement this year. Those connect the dot moments are really neatly close together, the characters are an absolute atrocity - but I understand how they got a straight line from plot point to plot point.

[tv echo]

I have the DVDs for S1-S4 of Arrow. Even with the romance pivot away from O/L after S1, you could see a (more or less) natural and organic progression in both Oliver's character and his relationships with Felicity and Diggle.  It was believable that he would turn to his two closest crime-fighting allies and that his friendship with Felicity would bloom into romance.  

But S5 is an anomaly.  It's not natural and it's not believable.  At this point, I have no desire to get the S5 DVD.

Edited January 20, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

At this point, why bother getting s5 DVD? It's like buying a copy of a someone's top hits by a really bad cover band at the gas station after your radio/media center crashed in your rental car on a really bad road trip to pass the time. Silence would be more fulfilling & entertaining.

[insomniadreams88]

I think it could be interesting to see how they promote the S5 DVD - especially if the season doesn't get a whole lot better. Remember when they used that Olicity featurette to promote the S4 set but it wasn't even on there? That's something else I'm bitter about - the promotion of the show doesn't necessarily match up to what we see in the episodes. (I still want to know where that "spring in Felicity's step" because of her relationship with Billy was.) 

[tv echo]

Watching this season of Arrow is sometimes like watching a slow-moving train wreck.The show seems determined to make the same mistakes that have been made by some other shows, notably Sleepy Hollow, The Walking Dead and (almost) Castle.  Instead, the Arrow EPs should learn the following lessons from those other shows:

1.  Don't Ignore Chemistry In Favor of Original Source Canon. Sleepy Hollow hit chemistry gold in its casting of Tom Mison's Ichabod and Nicole Beharie's Abbie, and that non-canon pairing was magic. Then the show turned its focus to the canon pairing of Ichabod and Katrina (Ichabod's love interest in the source material, the literary short story titled "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow"). You can't manufacture real onscreen chemistry, whether it is romantic chemistry or cast chemistry.  Arrow accidentally stumbled onto chemistry gold with the intro of EBR's Felicity in S1 and with the casting of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity as the OTA.

2.  Don't Introduce Too Many New Characters While Sidelining Old Characters. The Walking Dead took a big stumble this season, with its demo ratings dropping from 8.4 for the premiere to 5.1 for its midseason finale - still great numbers compared to other shows, but a significant drop over 8 episodes. One of the oft-cited reasons for this drop is that the show introduced a ton of new characters (many of whom we don't care about), while killing, sidelining and/or splitting up the old characters (many of whom we do care about). Arrow has done the same thing.

3.  Don't Show Misery Porn When Real Life Sucks. Another oft-cited reason for The Walking Dead's ratings drop in the first half of this season was the unrelenting misery porn that aired week after week. While Arrow has always been dark, this season hasn't given us much to smile about. Remember the great ratings for the S4 premiere when we were floating on spoilers about a lighter season and Oliver & Felicity happily together as a couple? Then we got lying Oliver, the stupid BMD and the badly executed death of Laurel. There's a reason so many bright, happy Hollywood musicals showed up on the big screen during the 1930's Depression Era. Entertainment is often escapism from real life. 

4.  Even If the Show Is Named For/Built Around the Male Lead, Don't Undervalue the Female Lead. With Stana Katic's planned departure from Castle last year, that show initially planned to continue on without her by killing off Beckett - the show is called Castle after all, not Castle and Beckett. Cue the backlash from fans who had invested 8 years in that couple's relationship on the show. The show was cancelled instead, ending with a happy future scene of Castle and Beckett with their children. Similarly, on Sleepy Hollow, if you followed book canon, the show's only indispensable character is Ichabod Crane. However, fans had invested in Ichabod's relationship with Abbie and viewed them as equal co-stars. That show nevertheless killed off Abbie last season and continued on with Ichabod and a new female lead character this season. However, that Fox show's ratings this season have hovered around 0.6 (compared to 0.8 last season). Yes, Arrow is called Arrow and is Oliver's story. But how many fans have stuck with this show for almost 5 seasons because of Felicity (the de facto female lead since S2) and/or her relationship with Oliver? By Season 5, we've invested in this show (or aspects of this show) and it's a bit late to be rebooting all the characters and their relationships. Although characters and relationships should evolve, they should not be reset back to almost zero.

5.  Don't Assume Viewers Will Watch the Entire Season. The Arrow EPs have said that they plan the entire season's story arc and then plant story mileposts in episodes along the way. It's like they plan the show for binge-watching, so they think we'll be happy once we finish out the entire season and see the whole picture. As Sleepy Hollow and other shows have proven, don't assume that viewers will stick through an entire season before deciding whether or not to drop a show. And don't assume you can get back lost viewers once those viewers are gone. I doubt even The Walking Dead will get back many of its lost viewers, no matter what happens during the rest of this season.

Edited January 29, 2017 by tv echo

[thegirlsleuth]

That was a great analysis of this season, @tv echo.  Comparing Arrow's issues to the ones that have wrecked other shows really brought home the problems with Arrow this year.   I would suggest that you submit it to one of the entertainment sites, provided you have thick enough skin to deal with trolls.  

[lemotomato]

I second that suggestion. @tv echo's write up is better written and researched than most of the stuff submitted to those sites.

[Hiveminder]

I especially like point 5. Sometimes you get the feeling from writers, show runners, actors, etc that they feel like they're doing us a favor by making these shows. They're not. I'm glad I have entertaining shows to watch, but make no mistake. They get paid to do this, and I pay to watch it. I don't owe them a thing. You want me to trust you to tell this story even if I don't like the direction it's going at times?  You better earn it, and don't be a condescending dick when I doubt your abilities. 

[kismet]

Thanks @tv echo! That is not even a bitterness post. That's accurate analysis of the season. The show has had some quantifiable struggles as is shown by ratings & social media drops. I think your post help to clarify the origin of some of those mistakes. What is ironic to me, is the show suffered some of these mistakes in earlier seasons and were able to put the train back on the tracks. I have no idea what happened after mid-season 4, because they seemed to take their successes and go out of their way to make them failures. Meanwhile they found a way to multiply some of their mistakes.

[statsgirl]

I agree with everyone, @tv echo, that's too good an analysis to limit to here. I know there are some sites who take guest writers, you should post it on one of those.

[thegirlsleuth]

17 hours ago, tv echo said:

5.  Don't Assume Viewers Will Watch the Entire Season. The Arrow EPs have said that they plan the entire season's story arc and then plant story mileposts in episodes along the way. It's like they plan the show for binge-watching, so they think we'll be happy once we finish out the entire season and see the whole picture. As Sleepy Hollow and other shows have proven, don't assume that viewers will stick through an entire season before deciding whether or not to drop a show. And don't assume you can get back lost viewers once those viewers are gone. I doubt even The Walking Dead will get back many of its lost viewers, no matter what happens during the rest of this season.

I wasn't quite sure where to post this, since it is sort of comics, and sort of speculation, but most closely related to the point that was made here.  A while back, someone posted a background on Prometheus, talking about how he faced off with Oliver in the comics.  I'll spoiler tag it, even though the comic came out several years back.

Spoiler

At the end of a long series, in which Prometheus tries to destroy the Justice League and ends up killing Roy Harper's daughter, the Green Arrow tracks him down and says the following: "Prometheus’ specialty had always been an uncanny knowledge of his opponents–he studied our abilities, skills, and tendencies. He took my proficiency with the bow. He was well aware of my hand-to-hand combat training. But Prometheus never grasped that vital piece of information. He never knew that at my core, I wasn’t a hero. I was a hunter."

I do wonder if they have Oliver regressing as a human being and hero just so he can say that line.   Even if it ruins his character growth and hurts his personal connections, I could see them building the whole season around that gotcha moment.

[tv echo]

Thanks - it was just the culmination of my frustration over the past six months. I'm thankful that this is a place where I can vent those frustrations without being cyberbullied.

I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with trolls on other sites because I have too much stress in real life. I also feel like it won't make any difference and it won't change anything. That's how little faith I have in the Arrow EPs right now. I just wanted to vent. (Please feel free to copy and use any or all of it, if you wish.)

Edited January 30, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

@thegirlsleuth I can totally see that. It's right up their alley. Connect the dots is their gameplay, MG has admitted to it in interviews. I could totally see them building a season of stupid and weakening their character just to stay that one cool line, all other valuable things be damn. It's probably one of their big dots or poles they are building the season around.

On another note, there are times I wonder if I or other people upset with Arrow should mail a politely worded & thoroughly evidence based letter to Mark Pedowitz about some of the cyclical and destructive tendencies of the Arrow writers. I feel like Pedowitz does care about quality. And even if it only reaches his secretary or that person's secretary or just the mailperson that tallies letters - I know Pedowitz cares about retaining viewership. Many letter campaigns have saved CW shows in the past. And I sometimes wonder if there is a way to save Arrow.

[LeighAn]

Pedowitz stood by the creatives of 100 when they killed Lexa despite outrage from fans and media alike. I don't see him being moved over what he'd perceive as lesser complaints about Arrow. 

I think if ratings keep bleeding and focus group feedback comes back negative however that may move him. Im interested to see if Arrow will suffer a spring drop off as it has every season.

At the same time though it depends how much money Arrow is bringing him from syndication and Netflix/CW app views.

[Kymmi]

I think I've gone numb to this show.  It made me so angry in S3 and S4B, but I've stopped caring.  I haven't made it through last night's episode and I don't think I will.  I loooooved this show in S1 and S2 - obsessed by the end of S2 if I'm honest - but it'll never get back to that.  Adding a Canary doesn't make it better, but not having a Canary didn't help either.  I'm complaining about not having OTA, but I think the show believes they have moved past it.  And past me, I guess.  

[Belinea]

13 hours ago, Kymmi said:

Adding a Canary doesn't make it better, but not having a Canary didn't help either.  I'm complaining about not having OTA, but I think the show believes they have moved past it.  And past me, I guess.  

I agree with you. They could have all the comic characters in the world for all I care, I just wanted a little bit of Oliver and Felicity as well as OTA.  While people might disagree and obviously the season isn't over, I feel as though O/F is done with. They will move on to Oliver and Tinah. (They had ok chemistry, I guess. Even though, I admit, I find SA rarely has actual chemistry with actresses he has to work with.) Maybe that is me being bitter but so far nothing has happened this season to convince me otherwise. Oliver calling her 'his second chance', basically Laurel 2.0, made me realise that I am not interested. I guess in the end it was too good to be true. I am just sad, not mad, I guess. I wanted to believe that the show would not drop these aspects after 4 seasons only to become a comic book but I guess that there is more regard to have those viewers stick around than the people who don't read the comics and just watch the show as a show.  

I don't watch live anymore, nor do I rewatch episodes like I used to but I like to communicate with the group here, which is why I haven't completely given up on the show. However, I will probably not be around any longer by the time S6 comes around which is still consider a sad thing. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Belinea

[theOAfc]

I will always say it,my biggest rant is probably about how i went from loving a ship to being meh about it so fast and thats all because of the awful writing. It all went downhill with the hideous baby mama story,that never paid off,never explored Oliver as a dad and threw Felicity under the bus to highlight his manpain.  It was the most contrived and idiotic thing i have seen on tv. It tainted this dynamic for good and all just for plot. Awful.

Edited February 3, 2017 by theOAfc

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Belinea said:

While people might disagree and obviously the season isn't over, I feel as though O/F is done with. They will move on to Oliver and Tinah. (They had ok chemistry, I guess. Even though, I admit, I find SA rarely has actual chemistry with actresses he has to work with.) Maybe that is me being bitter but so far nothing has happened this season to convince me otherwise. 

I'm pretty much convinced O/F are done, too. I've been unsure ever since those sides were leaked but with the reveal that Tina = Dinah, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't go with that pairing. They've essentially rebooted. They've removed the gross/toxic sister swapping and cheating history that hung over the Lauriver relationship. They don't appear to have anti-chemistry like SA and KC, which is something. Tina has the OG name and meta power. There's nothing stopping them from going there if they want to. Why else bring on BC if not to pair her up with GA in every way? It's what their fanboy demo wants after all.

So yeah, I'm bitter about the possibility which I really can't rule out. I know it's too soon to be sure but I just feel like it's gonna happen, especially with the way they're so focused on the because comics thing these days.

And as dumb as it sounds, I really resent this turnaround. Not only because of Olicity but also because it's frustrating that they could introduce a complete stranger in the fifth season who suddenly becomes the most important character second to Oliver simply because she has the right name. And what's worse is that she'll probably be pushed hard at the expense of characters and relationships I've invested in over four years. The Arrow writers always do this with their shiny new toys. I don't expect Tina to be any different. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

I'm still at 99% percent that they'll test O/Tinah and 60% that they'll go for it. Really expecting a triangle in S6 unless EBR quits/is let go. I've never personally seen anything to convince me DC doesn't care if BC/GA are together on this show now...they did stick them back together in the comics. I personally think that everyone except KC and maybe the CW knew KC was a total fail as BC and so didn't care what happened with her. That's not the situation anymore, and if DC orders it, it seems that it will happen.

However, I think that I've figured out what, for me, is at the root of all or at least most of their problems...everyone who matters really does look at a season of serialized television as a movie. Which is insane. Like genuinely delusional in a potentially-diagnosable way insane. Bc...it's not a movie. The audience doesn't have to wait 2 hours for a payoff of a seemingly crazy story choice...they have to wait 8.5 months. The writers are TERRIBLE at making every episode not only its own story with its own interesting stuff happening, but utterly fail at making each episode propel the overall story. It works with Netflix shows that are released all at once, but it fundamentally does not and can never work with a show that is released in increments over 8.5 months. 

I think the second-biggest problem is what @dtissagirl has said, that the writers are now treating each season as an emotional/character reboot. I CANNOT watch characters learn the same lessons over and over, and I CANNOT watch absolute idiots. Oliver is, IMO, the dumbest "superhero" I have ever seen other than The Tick, whose superpower was to be dumb. He's basically objectively dumb now, AND he is entirely incapable of learning from his 12,000 mistakes, and I personally simply cannot tolerate stupid people, and I certainly don't want to watch them try to be heroic. 

[insomniadreams88]

33 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

And as dumb as it sounds, I really resent this turnaround. Not only because of Olicity but also because it's frustrating that they could introduce a complete stranger in the fifth season who suddenly becomes the most important character second to Oliver simply because she has the right name. And what's worse is that she'll probably be pushed hard at the expense of characters and relationships I've invested in over four years. The Arrow writers always do this with their shiny new toys. I don't expect Tina to be any different. 

This is a big problem. They spent four years developing these relationships, and it's like none of them matter in season 5.  

Instead, they're all about their new characters, to the point where the new characters are getting scenes that the old ones already had. Like the fact that Dinah has met Oliver, Curtis and Rene and worked with them already. Back in S2, when Oliver brought Roy onto the team, he introduced him to Diggle and Felicity, the two people who knew his secret and mattered. It's like they completely forgot about that and anything that has to do with OTA, Thea, Lance, etc. I don't understand who thought that would be a good idea. Those other episodes exist. They even showed them on TNT recently. People aren't just going to forget about them. 

[dtissagirl]

11 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

However, I think that I've figured out what, for me, is at the root of all or at least most of their problems...everyone who matters really does look at a season of serialized television as a movie. Which is insane. Like genuinely delusional in a potentially-diagnosable way insane. Bc...it's not a movie. The audience doesn't have to wait 2 hours for a payoff of a seemingly crazy story choice...they have to wait 8.5 months. The writers are TERRIBLE at making every episode not only its own story with its own interesting stuff happening, but utterly fail at making each episode propel the overall story. It works with Netflix shows that are released all at once, but it fundamentally does not and can never work with a show that is released in increments over 8.5 months.

Just yesterday I saw some screengrab of Steve replying to a rant on Facebook and this was his answer again -- the "we're only halfway through the season" excuse. "You gave to be patient" "It'll all make sense once the season is over"... Sorry, none of those answers work anymore. It's like he's replying from 2005.

It doesn't help that these fools also write Arrow in that weird way that feels it's targeted at someone who has never ever watched a single second of serialized tv before -- which is how we get a third woman named Dinah on a M18-34 demo show, by the way.

As for Oliver being dumb. I don't mind watching dumb characters... when the narrative realizes they're dumb. The problem here for me isn't how dumb Oliver is made for plot, it's that he's made dumb for plot, and then none of the story is about how dumb he is. It's kinda how they wrote Laurel all the time, which, never a good comparison.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

This is a big problem. They spent four years developing these relationships, and it's like none of them matter in season 5.  

Instead, they're all about their new characters, to the point where the new characters are getting scenes that the old ones already had. Like the fact that Dinah has met Oliver, Curtis and Rene and worked with them already. Back in S2, when Oliver brought Roy onto the team, he introduced him to Diggle and Felicity, the two people who knew his secret and mattered. It's like they completely forgot about that and anything that has to do with OTA, Thea, Lance, etc. I don't understand who thought that would be a good idea. Those other episodes exist. They even showed them on TNT recently. People aren't just going to forget about them. 

Yep. That little Big Belly Burger scene with the three of them was clearly trying to replicate the OTA scene from s1. I see you, show. You're transparent. 

And look, I know that shows need to inject new characters to keep things fresh. But the Arrow writers never know how to do this properly. They're always so distracted by their shiny new toys that the original characters/relationships get shafted. Every single season this has happened. They never learn how to balance.

[AyChihuahua]

6 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Just yesterday I saw some screengrab of Steve replying to a rant on Facebook and this was his answer again -- the "we're only halfway through the season" excuse. "You gave to be patient" "It'll all make sense once the season is over"... Sorry, none of those answers work anymore. It's like he's replying from 2005.

It is utterly bizarre to me. It is like calling a wild tiger a puppy and then being surprised when it eats you after you try to pet it.

Of course it ate you. IT'S A TIGER.

[HighHopes]

My theory now is that they are rebooting in season six with the new cast of masks, and slowly getting rid of "the core characters". Laurel was gone last season (and now she's gone completely). Thea and Lance are slowly disappearing completely from the show, with not being seen and now rarely mentioned. Next to go will be either Digg or Felicity, with the last one leaving early season six. They have syndication and are renewed for season six already (and probably season seven too), so what is really stopping them from going full on masks!!comics!! now?

Season six will be Oliver and Tinah in the field with Curtis on coms, and back up from WD and any other comic!canon masks they feel like adding in now. 

[Belinea]

17 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Just yesterday I saw some screengrab of Steve replying to a rant on Facebook and this was his answer again -- the "we're only halfway through the season" excuse. "You gave to be patient" "It'll all make sense once the season is over"... Sorry, none of those answers work anymore. It's like he's replying from 2005.

Do you have a link possibly? I just like to read rants these days.

[kismet]

The biggest limiting factor is the writers room. They want to write a season long serialized story, but they are just not good at it. I don't know if s1 & s2 were just exceptions to their skills, because s3 & s4 failed as season long serialized show. And s5 looks like its heading down the same failure direction. Nothing to keep me tuning in every week for what they deliver. And guess what SA even if it all makes sense in the end doesn't mean its a good story. Anybody can put together a puzzle, it doesn't mean I want to frame it and savor the accomplishment or go back again to relive the fun of putting it all together. Maybe its just bad puzzle that deserves to be in the dollar store on the clearance rack.

Edited February 3, 2017 by kismet

[insomniadreams88]

18 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Just yesterday I saw some screengrab of Steve replying to a rant on Facebook and this was his answer again -- the "we're only halfway through the season" excuse. "You gave to be patient" "It'll all make sense once the season is over"... Sorry, none of those answers work anymore. It's like he's replying from 2005.

A problem with that is that it makes me expect some really epic episodes to end the season that will explain the 20ish episodes before. That's a lot of pressure to put on, say, 3 episodes out of a 23-episode season when the list of grievances already is crazy long and we're just hitting the midway point of the season. 

[Belinea]

16 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Season six will be Oliver and Tinah in the field with Curtis on coms, and back up from WD and any other comic!canon masks they feel like adding in now. 

Well, you have to give it your all. Those 300.000 people who love only the comics might be to tired to read and you want to do the best you can in your last season. Go out with a bang so to say. (I don't mean to seriously offend any people who like to read comic books)

 

22 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

That little Big Belly Burger scene with the three of them was clearly trying to replicate the OTA scene from s1.

But it didn't even come close to having the same effect. OTA had chemistry, this looked like Oliver and his annoying siblings on a trip they'd rather not be on.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Belinea

[dtissagirl]

7 minutes ago, Belinea said:

Do you have a link possibly? I just like to read rants these days.

Here: