Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Primal Slayer]

I'm still bitter they weren't clever and smart enough to have DD be the one who brought Sara back to taunt Lance and to use against TA.

[kismet]

5 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I'm still bitter they weren't clever and smart enough to have DD be the one who brought Sara back to taunt Lance and to use against TA.

It would also have been a good move, especially since they now have DD again on LoT. And I know, they didn't know that in 4a. But a villain bringing back someone to life via the Pit is always better than having one of the heroes do it considering all the problems it caused w/ TQ.

I'm very bitter towards the whole resurrection story. It made LL character look very selfish and deranged. I really thought they were heading towards another mental health issue with her. But alas, they were just writing crappy TV. They had so many other potential stories they could have done.

[Primal Slayer]

It didnt even make sense with the arc they gave her in S3. Laurel was at peace with Saras death and had moved on. But alas....

[Hiveminder]

One thing I've learned from this show is that no one ever moves on from anything. Unless it's the writers moving on from continuity. 

[insomniadreams88]

59 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I'm still bitter they weren't clever and smart enough to have DD be the one who brought Sara back to taunt Lance and to use against TA.

Imagine if first, they saw reports of women being attacked and realized they looked like Thea. Then while on patrol, one of the team saw a blonde. They then realized what DD did... 

That would have been a much better storyline. They could have made it an actual arc for Arrow too instead of just "need Sara alive for LoT." 

The episodes they felt they needed to do - on both Arrow and Flash - to set up LoT were definite low points of last year. 

[thegirlsleuth]

3 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Imagine if first, they saw reports of women being attacked and realized they looked like Thea. Then while on patrol, one of the team saw a blonde. They then realized what DD did... 

That would have been a much better storyline. They could have made it an actual arc for Arrow too instead of just "need Sara alive for LoT." 

The episodes they felt they needed to do - on both Arrow and Flash - to set up LoT were definite low points of last year. 

I thought this was one option.  The other option I envisioned was Merlyn bringing her back as pawn to control Nyssa (and thereby the League of Assassins).  When I heard it was coming, I assumed only a villain would bring back Sara using the pit.

[kismet]

Unless, LL turns out to be a villain. Dun... dun... dunnh....

[Willowtree]

16 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

 

Screw these people for leaving out this scene. It was so good and very much needed for both of them.

That was a really good scene. Too bad we didn't get to see Sara and Laurel interact more after Sara's Lazarus pit resurrection....or any real scenes between Oliver and Sara. Sara was, after all, the woman he wanted to move in with in season two. Given their past history and (past) emotional connection, it would have been nice to have at least some Sara/Oliver scenes before she was shipped over to LoT.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Willowtree

[ladylaw99]

I must be cold-hearted but that scene did nothing for me.  The writers imo destroyed the character of LL for me that I can't even see what a touching scene that is.

I agree, with their past history it would've been nice to see Oliver and Sara scenes before she left or even a OTA scene considering how close they supposedly got in season 2.

[Chaser]

I didn't get warm and fuzzies from the scene, but narratively I think the episode could have benefited from that scene because it showed some awareness from Laurel. I do think it would have been better character wise for Laurel for Sara to remember being a tormented soul in the pit and then have her pull her hand away from Laurel's at the end because she just wasn't ready to forgive her yet. They could wrap it all up in two mins in the next couple episodes but if Haunted ended with awareness from Laurel and consequences? wow.

[statsgirl]

It would have made more sense for DD to dig up Sara to hold over Quentin's head but I think they had LL Pit Sara because they didn't have any other storylines for her.  But I agree it would have been a good scene between them, and would have made up for her "you don't treat me as an equal" to Oliver in the hospital scene which was just all sorts of delusional

42 minutes ago, Willowtree said:

Sara was, after all, the woman he wanted to move in with in season two

We really do need some sort of BTS clarity on that scene (I wonder if someone could ask SA or CL at a con about it, it would make a nice chance from all the Olicity questions).  I read it as Oliver freaking out at the interpretation that he and Sara should live together, as opposed to sharing a living space, which is what caused Sara to think about breaking up with him and moving back to the LoA but it could be seen as Oliver wanting to move in with her too.

I'd rather Sara had had a scene with Quentin before going to LoA rather than Oliver though.  Imagine the mixed feelings he would have had!

[dtissagirl]

I don't need any BTS clarification. Oliver suggested getting a place together *without* realizing that meant "moving in" with Sara. That's one of my top five favorite Oliver is a Dumb-Dumb moments, because it's endearing how much in over his head he was. He had NO IDEA what the fuck he was doing. Which is why Sara, bless her heart and her smartness, dumped him pretty much right after. Because Sara is the opposite of a Dumb-Dumb.

[Starfish35]

8 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't need any BTS clarification. Oliver suggested getting a place together *without* realizing that meant "moving in" with Sara. That's one of my top five favorite Oliver is a Dumb-Dumb moments, because it's endearing how much in over his head he was. He had NO IDEA what the fuck he was doing. Which is why Sara, bless her heart and her smartness, dumped him pretty much right after. Because Sara is the opposite of a Dumb-Dumb.

I agree.  He didn't realize what he was saying, until Sara asked him to clarify.  Then he backpedaled fast, and Sara understood that there was no long term future for this relationship. 

[Sakura12]

I still don't think Sara saw a long term future for them either. I think they were both just in it for the comfort. Then dumb dumb Oliver didn't realize what get a place together meant. If they get a place together, that means they live together. 

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I can totally fanwank that Sara both realized that relationship had no future AND also saw the perfect timing/excuse to bolt out of it when Oliver went massive dumb-dumb on her. 

[Starfish35]

Ehhhh.  I kind of think Sara was in love with Oliver.  I think if he had wanted to give their relationship a chance she would have gone for it.  She just didn't have the blinders on that Laurel did, about who or what he was, or their future.   I'm not saying he was the "love of her life" or anything, but I think she was in love with him.  But unlike Laurel she could see that he didn't feel the same way and moved on.  

Edited January 4, 2017 by Starfish35

[AyChihuahua]

Now that I don't love the show and really don't like Oliver, some of the dumb Oliver stuff is pretty funny.

Oliver: "Let's get a place together."

Sara: "You mean live together?"

Oliver: "Wait, what?!?!?!?!?!"

Not quite as bad as leaving one working parachute RIGHT THERE, but pretty bad.

[dtissagirl]

I think in retrospect that could be it, and I haven't watched S2 in forever, but going from just memory, I saw it as Sara was still in love with Nyssa, and Oliver was prime rebound meat. Heh.

[Starfish35]

I guess I'm not a big believer in Sara/Nyssa.  I absolutely believe that Sara was the love of Nyssa's life, but how Sara felt about her is complicated by the fact that she really had no options for leaving the League once they rescued her.  I mean, I believe Sara loved her, but... I think Nyssa was too connected to a life she was trying to escape.  

I may be overthinking it though.  YMMV.  And we're probably going off-topic for this thread.  Lol.

[dtissagirl]

Oh, I can make it bitter: they never bothered to write a smidge of POV for Sara as to why she was with Oliver in 2B that we can pretty much apply any motivation to it. Grr.

Edited January 4, 2017 by dtissagirl

[insomniadreams88]

That's why I think they would've been better off having the 213 hookup be a one-time thing. Or just had them casually hooking up throughout 2B, sort of a comfort thing. Instead, they wanted that awful 214 family dinner, and so they had them in a relationship in 214. I think they also wanted to tease Felicity being jealous of Sara for a bit of Olicity and then throw in the, hey, no, it's about being part of the team. Maybe even so that the "I love you" would be a big S2 finale surprise since Oliver and Sara just broke up a few episodes before.

There is a lot to be bitter about for everyone involved - even tangentially - with that storyline.

Edited January 4, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[Sakura12]

I guess I never saw Sara in love with Oliver. Of course they never really gave us her POV. But I didn't see someone in love. She was with him because he was safe and he understood her being her killer.  I do think they love each other, just not in a romantic sense. Everything they went through together bonded them and they will always be close because of that. 

To me Sara looked shocked when Oliver asked her get a place with him, it was more like "What?, We are not ready for that".  She broke up with him because she felt he deserved someone better than her. That doesn't show me someone that's completely in love with someone else. That shows me she thought of herself as a stand in, that they were just with each other because they had no one else that understood their darkness. 

[yellowfred]

Yeah, while I kind of get where Oliver was coming from (they were both basically homeless and kind of broke, plus the whole "being partners in nightly vigilantism" thing, so finding a place together made perfect sense), I don't think he meant it in a "let's take the next step in our relationship" kind of way.  At the same time, I don't think he hated the idea of it going that way.  I always got the feeling that Sara was initially considering it, but then later realized that it wouldn't work out.  I also tend to think that a lot of their relationship was about thinking they could pick up where they left off on the island and eventually realizing that they'd both changed too much for that to be sustainable.

I do think, regardless of how deeply you buy in to the romantic aspect of their relationship, Sara was an important enough person to Oliver that her coming back to life should have had a bigger impact on him.  Probably the thing that most bothers me about the whole plotline of Laurel putting Sara in the Lazarus Pit is how perfunctory it all was.  It felt like they just needed to bring Sara back so that she could be on Legends of Tomorrow, but they really didn't want to let that affect the rest of the show too heavily, so they barely let her interact with anyone other than Laurel and Quentin and, once she took off again, they acted like she'd never been there.

[insomniadreams88]

I'm still bitter that all we got from Felicity and Sara together in the crossover was the two walking off in The Flash episode. 

You know, they could have said that they were putting together a "welcome back from the dead" dinner for Sara, at the loft, with Oliver cooking. That would have been one line they could have put into an episode to at least tell us that they spent time with her when she wasn't in the field before she left. 

[Belinea]

I know I said it before but all that we are seeing these days make me slightly sad because it manifests the feeling for me that they are moving in a direction that I just don't feel like watching anymore. Everything is so different. I am also losing losing faith in Oliver and Felicity being important in each other's lives again. At this point in time, I'd say they actively killed it and it doesn't look like they will go back to it. 

Maybe it is just me being fed up but I seriously get no enjoyment out of the show anymore. Nothing that is happening makes me want to tune in week after week. There were times I couldn't wait a week but now I don't even watch actively anymore. 

[dtissagirl]

I've actually gone past bitter, and now I'm just here for the mocking.

Because I have never in my life watched a show that deserved this much pointing and laughing, and I'm someone who watches trashy tv shows on purpose.

[Password]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I've actually gone past bitter, and now I'm just here for the mocking.

Me. 

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I spent pretty much all of S3 with severe rage insomnia, had no trust even in the few good episodes of S4 bc I knew they'd screw it up, and now just mock and watch other things.

Lethal Weapon, for example, which returns tonight.

[Mellowyellow]

Haha I tell myself "You can't have nice things on Arrow because you get everything with Bess on Madam Secretary."

I'm still in it for Felicity and I'm just hoping she gets a nice life by the end of it. 

[Belinea]

34 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Lethal Weapon, for example, which returns tonight.

Is it a good show? I tried to watch Lucifer and so far I really like it. 

[Mellowyellow]

Just now, Belinea said:

Is it a good show? I tried to watch Lucifer and so far I really like it. 

Really good! Very good!

Its funny, exciting, has lovely emotional moments too. The main characters are adorable together and have excellent bromance chemistry.

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, Belinea said:

Is it a good show? I tried to watch Lucifer and so far I really like it. 

It's fantastic. It's really, really fun. Like laugh out loud funny, and then two seconds later it's heartbreaking. All the chemistry (minus, for me, the psychologist who's so far not a major player) gelled nearly instantly. It nods to the movies without outright copying them. It's my favorite show right now (also really like Lucifer, Pitch, and This is Us).

Most importantly, the characters have actual recognizably-human emotional reactions. For example, Riggs is allowed to be visibly heartbroken about heartbreaking stuff that happened. After a couple seasons of most Arrow characters behaving like Neptunians, that's a huge plus for me.

Edited January 4, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[Mellowyellow]

13 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

It's fantastic. It's really, really fun. Like laugh out loud funny, and then two seconds later it's heartbreaking.

THIS!!!

I go from giggling about Riggs antics one minute to feeling teary and telling hubby "Oh the poor man, I do hope he's going to get through this."

I feel like Arrow is always writing the crappiest crap they can think of and then telling me "Look we are clever! We tried to give you this but you don't appreciate it because you are watching the show wrong."

Madam Secretary, Lethal Weapon, Fresh of the Boat - I think I know what I'm getting and I'm perfectly happy with it and then they give me something else I didn't know I wanted and I'm like "OMG this is freaking awesome!!!!!"

oh Arrow, such a fail!

Edited January 4, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[AyChihuahua]

49 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I go from giggling about Riggs antics one minute to feeling teary and telling hubby "Oh the poor man, I do hope he's going to get through this."

Clayne Crawford is utterly perfect as Riggs. I've really enjoyed him in other things...he's very charismatic, IMO. But he's perfect as Riggs. 

[ladylaw99]

I just realized in the spoilers discussion thread how bitter I am that they messed up Slade (Shado mess).  MB to me portrayed a great villain.    I loved seeing Oliver and Slade becoming friends and I felt the hatred that Slade had for Oliver in season 2.  He is the only villain that worked for me in Arrow.  

I am so mad that we don't have him anymore and even more mad at MB antics BTS that I feel could cloud my judgment of his character.  Normally I don't care about the BTS but he just came off so arrogant that I can't stand him now.

I need a villain like Slade again.  Someone I can get invested in and at times root for when Oliver is being a moron.

[tv echo]

This is the audience that the EPs are apparently writing for this season (you can also put this in the category of "Are we even watching the same show?") - I wonder if this same audience is complaining about The Flash's storyline this season being about Barry & Iris and now about Saving Iris...

More Arrows! More Action! And a Lot Less Felicity! ARROW Season 5 is Back on Track!
By Morgan  Jan. 5, 2017
https://comicsverse.com/more-arrows-more-action-and-a-lot-less-felicity-arrow-season-5-is-back-on-track/

Quote

Season 4 was a dark time for ARROW. For a show literally titled ‘ARROW,’ there was a depressing lack of, you know, arrows (Some redditors counted). Action and heroism was replaced with soap opera drama and teenage angst. However, fans will be happy to know that Season 5 brought the arrows back, and dropped more than a few bodies with them. No more relationship drama; WAY more ass-kicking.
*  *  *
Felicity and Friends is Over

When Felicity Smoak was first introduced, she filled a much needed role as the technical wizard that Team Arrow desperately needed. Emily Rickards played the intrepid hacker fantastically, delivering genuinely funny awkward humor- the kind that so often falls flat in other shows. Felicity Smoak rounded off Team Arrow in a very constructive way, providing new dimensions to Oliver’s capabilities, and the functionality of the team as a whole. She was a very popular character.

Too popular, it turns out. Arrow’s writers promoted Felicity Smoak to the star of a brutally cringeworthy soap opera. They took the subtle romantic tension between her and Oliver, and made that the focus of two whole seasons. Furthermore, Season 3 and 4 saw Felicity Smoak taking on a confusingly vital role to the plot . She magically solved all sorts of problems with her H@x0rz skillz, and practically became unofficial leader of Team ARROW. Some viewers began jokingly referring to the show as Felicity and Friends because of the absurdly skewed focus on Felicity’s feelings and her relationship troubles with Oliver. As opposed to, you know, THE GREEN ARROW.

Season 5 very pointedly shifts Felicity back into her original role as the tech wizard, and even pokes fun at the writing of the earlier seasons. The writers seem to have realized their mistake, and are slowly redeeming Felicity by bringing her back to her roots. And best of all, Arrow is all about arrows again. Specifically, who’s getting shot full of them, and who’s doing the shooting.
*  *  *
Anyways, Arrow is looking pretty fantastic this season. If seasons 3 and 4 put you off, now is a great time to jump back in. There’s a lot of action, some sinister villains, and a whole lot less relationship drama. And Felicity is a side character again. What more could you want?

Edited January 6, 2017 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

It's never not hilarious to meet men who are terrified of fictional women.

Edited January 6, 2017 by dtissagirl

[insomniadreams88]

I wish we'd get the "Felicity and Friends" show so many people are always talking about. I'd be more excited about that show each week than I am Arrow right now. Maybe Felicity would actually get a POV for once. 

ETA: Also, then Felicity might have friends who care about her, are there for her and check on her after she goes through something traumatic instead of comforting the guy who killed her BF. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[ladylaw99]

I personally would enjoy the show more if it were Felicity and friends and not Oliver and the newest mask.

[Chaser]

Objectively its interesting and terrifying to look at their completely skewed view.

They completely ignore established canon like Felicity always being involved in the action and her being the one who wanted leave Ivy Town (if you ask them it was Oliver).  They accept focus on Diggle, Thea, Lance, Laurel as character building but any focus on Felicity causes them to grab their pitchforks. They look at the break up and bemoan the drama that Felicity "caused", when it was Oliver's lies/actions that lead to it all.

I honestly don't know how anyone takes them seriously when there are so many logic fails in their opinions.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Chaser

[Ophanim]

CW, I still waiting for that spin off!

And article has one point right: Felicity IS way more popular than main character, and there lies hers doom in this man's world.

 

 

p.s. author is misogynist a*hole

[tangerine95]

I really think if Felicity had basically the same amount of story and screentime she had in 5A but her and Oliver were still together through it sites like this would still consider the show all about her and complain lol. 

[LeighAn]

Passionate irrational jealousy that Felicity is more loved, more popular and more buzzed about and the female lead then their precious comic canon characters could ever hope to be. 

They created the Felicity and Friends narrative out of nothing to drag her down because they couldn't stand that their fave could never. 

#Sorrynotsorry #Cestlavie 

[dtissagirl]

It's uncanny how misogyny works by gaslightIng female voices. Oliver was the one who decided he couldn't date Felicity in S3, and then spent 20 episodes being growly about it. Then Oliver was the one who hid a secret kid for bizarre reasons nobody can explain with a straight face. But it's obviously Felicity who was responsible for all of that, because it's only ever women who can be blamed when the male protagonist, having actual active voice in the narrative while making theses choices, refuses to date them or hides offspring from them. The drama is female, obvi.

[LeighAn]

10 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I really think if Felicity had basically the same amount of story and screentime she had in 5A but her and Oliver were still together through it sites like this would still consider the show all about her and complain lol. 

For a while there GATV's Craig liked Olicity in season 4 and gave them positive reviews. Then he was too blind to see the signs that Laurel was going to die and went back to Felicity and Olicity are the worst.

I think that's another thing Felicity was a total scape goat for the fandom a rage over Laurel dying. Even though the signs were all there they just chose not to read them.

[Ophanim]

I am just tired of this hate toward Felicity. Whole reddit is obsessed by her, they hate her so much, that every third post is about her. And it's obvious when comicbook sites make a article, that is author from reddit or influenced by reddit. 

It is tiresome be a fan of a show who hate his female audience :( 

[Chaser]

19 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

It's uncanny how misogyny works by gaslightIng female voices. Oliver was the one who decided he couldn't date Felicity in S3, and then spent 20 episodes being growly about it. Then Oliver was the one who hid a secret kid for bizarre reasons nobody can explain with a straight face. But it's obviously Felicity who was responsible for all of that, because it's only ever women who can be blamed when the male protagonist, having actual active voice in the narrative while making theses choices, refuses to date them or hides offspring from them. The drama is female, obvi.

And they flip this with their 'approved' female character. Half the stuff they say about Laurel was never shown.  

[NumberCruncher]

I have been fairly quiet about Arrow lately because honestly the show has pretty much lost my viewership this season.  I just don't really care anymore.  I still read the threads here because I find them quite amusing and they confirm to me that my decision to sideline the show was the correct one.  I did, however, want to delurk to basically say that all the things that dudebro blogger just wrote about are exactly why I stopped watching.  I'm glad he's enjoying it but I think Arrow is the shallowest it has ever been sidelining long-time characters, making everything about how cool the fights can be while ignoring any and all character development, rehashing the same tired plotlines from prior seasons, etc.  It's in a word...boring.  Why watch season 5 at all?  We've already seen ample characters coming back from the dead, Oliver boinking questionable women, new masked characters boring us to tears, weaksauce villains, and now

 

a possible

THIRD Canary!

 If anything, S5 only proves that they've run out of cliched tropes.  It's not a wonder why the ratings have stagnated.  

Now back to lurk status.

Edited January 7, 2017 by NumberCruncher

[LeighAn]

See I truly believe the writers still love Felicity and would still gladly tell every single cry baby hater to go fuck then selves. I also believe Stephen Amell would still rather have the show with Felicity then without. 

As much as the writing has sucked for Felicity its sucked for Diggle Thea Lance and even Oliver as well it's just that their fans arent as numerous or as vocal about it. It sucks because they've turned the show into a workplace crime procedural and given all the emotional beats to brand new characters and have had ignored any residual drama and character growth from last season by making all the characters superficial this season.

I think the arrow writers misunderstand their audience and are tone deaf to fan criticism and choose selective hearing that's all about kissing their ass and confirming their own belief in their brilliance. They absolutely can not take constructive criticism well with out getting defensive and antagonistic and deciding that it must be the veiwer who's watching it wrong. Which is stupid considering the profession there in.

But I still think they are super grateful for Emily and the character Felicity because she is their own character and their own legacy in the DC universe and was pivotal to the show getting to where it was. They've acknowledged enough that they couldn't do this show without Felicity. 

Its just unfortunately this season so far hasnt been their best in showing that. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by LeighAn

[Ophanim]

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I think the arrow writers misunderstand their audience and are tone deaf to fan criticism and choose selective hearing that's all about kissing their ass and confirming their own belief in their brilliance. They absolutely can not take constructive criticism well with out getting defensive and antagonistic and deciding that it must be the veiwer who's watching it wrong. Which is stupid considering the profession there in.

This is main reason why I don't have hope in any good SL progress further in season(s). Especially after Twittergate by almost half BTS team.