Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Password]

I agree, Oliver's lucky Felicity stuck around at all. If anything, he might have convinced her to give him (another) chance had they had a normal, adult conversation. Felicity had to leave for her sanity and more power to her. 

Also, given that Felicity forgave Oliver all his past transgressions in season 3, it would seem inhuman of her to go "he lied then, he lied now... I'll give him a third chance". There's a pattern here and she's not Laurel. 

[AyChihuahua]

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Okay I read SA's complete answer in the other thread and I have so many issues with it. She was quick to walk away but rightfully quick. Honestly I can't with people not understanding her choice. She was even too nice IMO, I would have lost it. And what is saying "she is a fictional character, she can do what she wants" supposed to mean? That it would be a wrong behavior from a real life woman? That in reality a woman who was betrayed like that should have stayed and understood her man because poor him? I don't know what women he met in real life but NO dude, just no. I felt so much respect for him when he said her choice was understandable and now I lost it all.

If a guy did that to me I would legit burn all his shit on the front lawn, plus bitch-slap the crap out of the nasty lying hag baby mama. (I would help find the kid, though.) He lied to her face for months (and NOT by omission, not that that actually would have been better).

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

If a guy did that to me I would legit burn all his shit on the front lawn, plus bitch-slap the crap out of the nasty lying hag baby mama. (I would help find the kid, though.) He lied to her face for months (and NOT by omission, not that that actually would have been better).

LOL, that's a bit extreme. :D

Realistically I think I would have yelled a lot, cried a lot than found a way to avoid meeting him for the foreseeable future. There's no way I could have handled working with the man I was about to marry and I still love after he did something like that to me.

[Lady Calypso]

As many issues as I had with the overall breakup scene (the writing wasn't....great, let's just put it that way...also the contrived getting out of the wheelchair moment), Felicity walking away was not an issue I had. I think she was well within her rights to walk away and redefine their relationship. Not only did Oliver lie to her about his son (that I honestly think was bad, but that I MIGHT have seen where SA is coming from) but it was the movement of their relationship with the proposal during this time that made it ten times worse. He proposed, making the legitimate choice in moving forward with Felicity into marriage, an act that surely would have exploded the moment Felicity would find out about William. Imagine Oliver and Felicity a couple of years into marriage and Baby Mama finally 'giving' him permission to tell Felicity about his son. That's just so bad and Felicity should never forgive Oliver for that if they had actually been married. 

Even as much as I loved the proposal talk and the actual proposal scene, Oliver was an asshole for doing it so soon after finding out about William. In fact, he should have dropped that idea like a hot potato and either told Felicity about William anyway, or forced Baby Mama to let him tell Felicity so that he could propose. Getting engaged is no joke; Oliver had no idea of knowing when he would be 'allowed' to tell Felicity about William, yet he actually went and proposed anyway with all of this in mind! And that's not getting into the several people who actually knew beforehand (Barry, Malcolm, Thea....). 

Also, I'm so pissed that Laurel didn't actually get to act in character and be pissed about all of this. Sure, Oliver's cheated on her before, but this should have actually had Laurel in a rage. At least, in her rightful selfishness, she would have been on Felicity's side. 

[TimetravellingBW]

53 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

As many issues as I had with the overall breakup scene (the writing wasn't....great, let's just put it that way...also the contrived getting out of the wheelchair moment), Felicity walking away was not an issue I had. I think she was well within her rights to walk away and redefine their relationship. Not only did Oliver lie to her about his son (that I honestly think was bad, but that I MIGHT have seen where SA is coming from) but it was the movement of their relationship with the proposal during this time that made it ten times worse. He proposed, making the legitimate choice in moving forward with Felicity into marriage, an act that surely would have exploded the moment Felicity would find out about William. Imagine Oliver and Felicity a couple of years into marriage and Baby Mama finally 'giving' him permission to tell Felicity about his son. That's just so bad and Felicity should never forgive Oliver for that if they had actually been married. 

And that's not getting into the several people who actually knew beforehand (Barry, Malcolm, Thea....). 

Also, I'm so pissed that Laurel didn't actually get to act in character and be pissed about all of this. Sure, Oliver's cheated on her before, but this should have actually had Laurel in a rage. At least, in her rightful selfishness, she would have been on Felicity's side. 

The thing I dislike most about the break up scene was that they made it all about Felicity walking again, not about her vocalising her very fair reasons for  breaking up with Oliver. They should have had her very calmly list all the reasons, why she was justified in ending things. (As we have numerous times here).  Seriously, what wouldn't I give for the scene to go down like this: 

"Oliver, here's why you were a dumbass:"

1) "It wasn't an impossible choice." (I loath that the writers framed it as so). "It wasn't a choice between your son or me, it was a choice between trusting me or Samantha because she never would have known if you'd told me. Samantha lied to you, hid the existence of your son for over a decade and then wouldn't even let you tell anyone about William. I've been your partner in saving the city and protecting your life for the past four years. You make the call of who is more trustworthy."

2) "You proposed to me while lying about your son. (Basically everything @Lady Calypso said because yes, proposing while hiding William is a new level of despicable.) "You proposed, making the legitimate choice in moving forward into marriage, an act that surely would have exploded the moment I found out about William a couple of years into marriage."

3) "You have a history of lying and cutting me out of decisions. See: All of last year. I thought you'd improved but this proves you haven't."

4) "A ton of other people knew, including your arch-enemy, creepy ally Malcolm Merlyn. Where do I rank in your trust levels Oliver?"

5) "You may not know this because we so rarely talk about my feelings, but I have a history of being abandoned and lied to by the men of my life. I.e. My father and Cooper. So this has hit a sore spot for me."

But of course doing that would require actually justifying Felicity's position, highlighting Oliver's mistakes and sacrificing their oh-so-dramatic *I can walk!* moment. But that's how it should have gone down.

On Laurel's reaction, I was annoyed they didn't have her rightfully angry at Samantha/Oliver.  (It was one of the few times I actually wanted Felicity and Laurel to unite and validate Laurel's perspective, whereas normally I couldn't care less). But the writers clearly had everyone - Thea, Diggle, Laurel -  side with Oliver because god forbid, Felicity's feelings matter as much as his.

Now after Laurel's love confession and the new flashbacks, I'm just happily headcanoning that Laurel hid her anger because she realized Felicity was angry at Oliver and hoped being sweet and forgiving would make Oliver turn around and go back to her. (Honestly I've just given up and embraced the retcon about Laurel's feelings and all the skeevy implications it has on her character. If KC and the show wants to make me believe she's a scheming doormat hanging around to win Oliver back, then sure.) 

Edited June 8, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

With bitterness comes fantastic fanart lol

Laurel had Quentin, Dinah and Sara. Diggle had Lyla, then Sara and, this season, Andy. Oliver, of course, had his entire family plus a best friend. Felicity got Donna last year and Noah this year and suddenly it's all about Keeping Up With the Smoaks or Felicity & Friends. It's like everybody is allowed to have backstories, related characters, etc., except for her. Everybody's allowed to have a "destiny" or a "suit" but for her it's almost always a hard "no." It's annoying as hell. 

[Mellowyellow]

7 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

If a guy did that to me I would legit burn all his shit on the front lawn, plus bitch-slap the crap out of the nasty lying hag baby mama. (I would help find the kid, though.) He lied to her face for months (and NOT by omission, not that that actually would have been better).

Bahahahahaha you crack me up so much!!!!! That's exactly what I would do! 

Actually I was SO angry episodes 14 and 15 Hubby was like "I swear if I hadn't dated you since we were 18 I would think that someone hid an illegitimate kid from you in your past!"

Edited June 8, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[Password]

I just posed the question of "what would you do?" in Felicity's situation and everyone said "breakup". One person said "I'd burn him" so... 

The fact that my fiance could propose, whilst seeing his child in secret would freak me out. What else could this dude do?! Not to mention his past of secret keeping. 

I actually really liked Laurel's reaction. Not that she hugged baby mama but that she quietly cried with Quentin. It felt kind of perfect. Full on rage would've made me side eye her (even though it would be alowed). 

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Password said:

I actually really liked Laurel's reaction. Not that she hugged baby mama but that she quietly cried with Quentin. It felt kind of perfect. Full on rage would've made me side eye her (even though it would be alowed). 

The scene with Lance will forever be Laurel's best on the show.

[AyChihuahua]

18 hours ago, Password said:

I just posed the question of "what would you do?" in Felicity's situation and everyone said "breakup". One person said "I'd burn him" so...  

If that's me, I just said I'd burn his stuff. Now, I'd THINK ABOUT burning him, but I wouldn't actually DO it.

Probably.

[wonderwall]

29 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

If that's me, I just said I'd burn his stuff. Now, I'd THINK ABOUT burning him, but I wouldn't actually DO it.

Probably.

DON'T BURN HIS HATS.

In case you win a bet against him in the future

[looptab]

We should make a hat-eating thread:D We could write our predictions, and the people who end up being wrong pay the penance, like they have to watch the flashbacks and sum it up for everyone. :)

...

Don't mind me, this is the kind of dumb ideas my mind forms when you have just woken up and there's already like 25 C and I hate everything.

[Ang]

I am just so stuck on Laurel's deathbed speech. SHE DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS GOING TO DIE!! What POSSIBLE reason could she have had to say any of that, but especially the whole, "I know I'm not the love of your life, but you were the love of mine" disaster? Why? Why would she say that? What could she have been hoping to accomplish, besides making him feel enormously uncomfortable and putting a strain on their relationship? Was she trying to cut ties? Making the world's worst move on him? Did her life flash before her eyes, and she was on so many drugs she babbled everything that was in her head?

Then there's the mysterious promise. Unless I missed something (possible...) that went unexplained. And that means it'll be used as a deux ex machina in some future show where it's exactly what the plot needs. Anyone placing odds on whether it'll be something that actually makes sense for Laurel to have asked Oliver while she was recovering from surgery?

Then there's the cascade of changed implications that this (with the new post-Tommy flashbacks) brings to every aspect of the character, not to mention her interactions with others. I don't know the comics, I don't know the Black Canary beyond some slight online exposure reading about Arrow, but the image that sticks with me is of the wedding issue, where BC is carrying GA bridal style. They had the potential to create an incredibly strong, independently powerful character that flipped traditional roles and expectations on their heads, and this is what they made of her. I can't even put into words how disgusting the whole thing is.

[TimetravellingBW]

5 hours ago, Ang said:

I am just so stuck on Laurel's deathbed speech. SHE DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS GOING TO DIE!! What POSSIBLE reason could she have had to say any of that, but especially the whole, "I know I'm not the love of your life, but you were the love of mine" disaster? Why? Why would she say that? What could she have been hoping to accomplish, besides making him feel enormously uncomfortable and putting a strain on their relationship? Was she trying to cut ties? Making the world's worst move on him? Did her life flash before her eyes, and she was on so many drugs she babbled everything that was in her head?

Then there's the mysterious promise. Unless I missed something (possible...) that went unexplained. And that means it'll be used as a deux ex machina in some future show where it's exactly what the plot needs. Anyone placing odds on whether it'll be something that actually makes sense for Laurel to have asked Oliver while she was recovering from surgery?

Ugh, I just can't get over that either. It would make sense if Laurel knew she was dying. Or even if she was going to stop being a vigilante and was clearing the air. Or if she was trying to get over Oliver, and admitting her feelings to completely sweep away any hope she had left. (A really good love confession speech was Martha Jones on Doctor Who, when she confessed her feelings but went "I'm worth more than pining over a guy who doesn't notice me and am getting out of this situation for my own good.")

But Laurel literally just decided she was going to stay on the team. She was presumably still going to carry around that photo. How could Oliver not treat her awkwardly after that? What about next time they had a fight, would one of them throw her feelings in the others face? (They aren't known for pulling punches in their toxic arguments). And if Oliver told Felicity about Laurel's feelings, wouldn't things be awkward between Laurel and her "friend"? Would Felicity worry Laurel resented her? Would she think Laurel was trying to get Oliver back? The only way I can see that situation turning out is Oliver trying to get Laurel to leave the team because he can't handle working closely with someone whose motivated by loving him.  

Honestly my speculation is Laurel confessed her feelings because she hoped there was a chance Oliver would consider them again. It had been a while since Oliver/Felicity broke up, Felicity didn't seem to be taking Oliver back, Oliver had accepted Laurel as his friend and now he was feeling bad she was hurt. What better time to let him know she was still on the market? He's vulnerable, emotional, guilt-ridden and could be on the rebound. (In fact the dialogue in the scene plays out with Oliver promising he's not going anywhere and then Laurel telling him to bring out the photo. That's the most affection Oliver showed Laurel in years, no wonder she was hopeful). Then when Oliver reacted with utter horror and pity, she quickly added in: "But I hope you get back together with Felicity!11"

[Sakura12]

I think the whole Laurel mess was actress motivated not character motivated. The writers and the actress knew Laurel was going to die so they let her say what she really felt. They knew it wouldn't matter to the story that much after she was gone. 

Arrow's Laurel Lance was the Black Canary no one deserved. It's a good thing for me that I don't recognize her as the Black Canary otherwise I'd be upset how she was portrayed on this show. 

[Morrigan2575]

6 hours ago, Ang said:

I am just so stuck on Laurel's deathbed speech. SHE DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS GOING TO DIE!! What POSSIBLE reason could she have had to say any of that, but especially the whole, "I know I'm not the love of your life, but you were the love of mine" disaster? Why? Why would she say that? What could she have been hoping to accomplish, besides making him feel enormously uncomfortable and putting a strain on their relationship? Was she trying to cut ties? Making the world's worst move on him? Did her life flash before her eyes, and she was on so many drugs she babbled everything that was in her head?

The death anvils loomed large in 418. Honestly, even if people weren't spoiled they should have figured it out very early in the episode. 

The problem with the "death bed" scene is that the writers wanted it both ways. They knew they were going to kill her off, they spent the whole episode setting up her death but, wanted that last final shock. So you have scenes where all of the characters/actors are saying goodbye to someone that (as far as they know) isn't dying but they're written/acted as if this is THE END.  The final Lauiver scene is an extension of that, you have a death bed scene where LL is saying goodbye and telling Oliver that she'll always love him except in text SHE'S NOT DYING.

It makes no sense except that the writer, actors (not characters) knew that the episode ended with her death. Honestly,  the stupid shocking death twist was totally out of tone with the scene that was set. But, MG is the King of wanting his cake and eating it too mentality 

Edited June 10, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[TimetravellingBW]

27 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The problem with the "death bed" scene is that the writers wanted it both ways. They knew they were going to kill her off, they spent the whole episode setting up her death but, wanted that last final shock. So you have scenes where all of the characters/actors are saying goodbye to someone that (as far as they know) isn't dying but they're written/acted as if this is THE END.  The final Lauiver scene is an extension of that, you have a death bed scene where LL is saying goodbye and telling Oliver that she'll always love him except in text SHE'S NOT DYING.

It makes no sense except that the writer, actors (not characters) knew that the episode ended with her death. Honestly,  the stupid shocking death twist was totally out of tone with the scene that was set. But, MG is the King of wanting his cake and eating it too mentality 

That's exactly it. They wanted the death to be a ~big twist~ but wrote the characters like she was dying. Which is the worst of both worlds because the characters behaviour make the oncoming death obvious, but the situation of LL not-dying makes their decisions/dialogue stupid. (E.g. The love confession).

I'm still surprised at how little effort the writers put into the death. I remember reading spec on here that there could be a big cliffhanger during the ep with Quentin/Diggle/Thea/Donna/Etc. all in life threatening situations, before saving all of them and switching to Laurel dying. Instead there were practically neon lights flashing over her head that she was doomed. 

And with the love confession, yes it was for KC not LL but the writers could have executed it better. (Not having her confess her feelings while thinking she was going to live, not having her literally dance on Tommys grave in flashbacks).

But @Sakura12 I'm glad LL didn't end up representing the BC for a lot of fans and tarnishing her legacy. As @Ang said the comics BC seems like a really awesome, powerful character .

Edited June 10, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[dtissagirl]

I think this is classic That's So Laurel writing. Even not counting whether this was KC getting her headcanon or not, the writers knew she was gonna die, so she could say the love of her life stuff because she was gonna die.

And it didn't matter that at that point the audience was supposed to think Laurel was gonna live -- the writing knew she was gonna die, and that took precedence over audience reaction.

[looptab]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

I think this is classic That's So Laurel writing. Even not counting whether this was KC getting her headcanon or not, the writers knew she was gonna die, so she could say the love of her life stuff because she was gonna die.

 

I am honestly surprised we didn't get an "in my bones" line.

By the way, did anyone else manage to watch the video of KC's latest panel? I am super curious if there was more about the table read for 418.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm down with the whole last scene, because it was so entirely ridiculously stupid that it made me laugh. Add in her truly, truly grotesque come-on to Oliver like five days after Tommy bit it saving her moronic ass, and I am entertained. Laurel is officially, canonically, textually, the actual worst.

[kismet]

3 hours ago, looptab said:

I am honestly surprised we didn't get an "in my bones" line.

Maybe that's what she whispered to him. :) I'd rather it be one last pathetic attempt to snag him, than anything actually relevant to the plot or storyline.

[Ang]

3 hours ago, looptab said:

I am honestly surprised we didn't get an "in my bones" line.

By the way, did anyone else manage to watch the video of KC's latest panel? I am super curious if there was more about the table read for 418.

Oh my gosh, I have hated that line from the first time they used it, and I'm talking searing, gasping hate. And the writers kept using it over and over and over! Monsters, all of them.

[dtissagirl]

1 hour ago, Ang said:

Oh my gosh, I have hated that line from the first time they used it, and I'm talking searing, gasping hate. And the writers kept using it over and over and over! Monsters, all of them.

We figured out a while ago that Greg Berlanti says "in my bones" in real life -- he said it in an interview. So, it's his fault.

[Password]

I just realised that collectively there are more episodes from season 3 that I liked than season 4. Season 3 sucked!

Season 3: 1,3,5,9,10,14,16,19,20,23    

Season 4: 1,3,6,9,11,16,20

[Mellowyellow]

I found season 4 to be awful.  Truly awful! The BMD thing is so awful and practically killed the ship for me. Someone on one is the other threads mentioned that Whedon got couples together and then killed them which of course made me fret about Fitzsimmons. Then I thought about it and actually said to hubby "You know honey even if they kill one of Fitzsimmons that would still be preferable to BMD storyline. Death is tragic, lying about your illegitimate child while proposing to the alleged love of your life is not!"

Edited July 8, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[Morrigan2575]

On 7/7/2016 at 3:54 PM, Password said:

I just realised that collectively there are more episodes from season 3 that I liked than season 4. Season 3 sucked!

Season 3: 1,3,5,9,10,14,16,19,20,23    

Season 4: 1,3,6,9,11,16,20

Hmm, that's interesting,  let me try.

S3: 301, 305, 308, 309, 317, 318, 319, 320, 323 = 9

S4: 401, 402 403, 406, 408, 409, 411, 418 (heh) 417, 420, 421 = 11

S4 gets a alight edge. However,  i actually watched more S4 episodes so i guess that makes it a better Season

[wonderwall]

For me:

S3: 301, 305, 308, 309, 310, 316, 319, 320, 323 = 9

S4: 401, 402, 403, 404, 406, 407, 409, 411, 412, 417, 420, 421 = 12

Yay improvement? :p 

This also goes to show that Arrow should only have 13-16 episodes per season

[Angel12d]

301, 305, 308, 309, 316, 318, 319, 320, 323

401, 402, 403, 404, 406, 409, 411, 412, 417, 420, 421

So it's slightly more in s4's favor for me, even though I also think the baby mama crap tainted things. I would have also added 407 but the camera work still makes me feel ill so no.

[wonderwall]

13 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

So it's slightly more in s4's favor for me, even though I also think the baby mama crap tainted things. I would have also added 407 but the camera work still makes me feel ill so no.

I didn't mind the shaky camera as much considering I'm such a huge FNL fan haha

[lemotomato]

I'm a little surprised so many people liked that much of season 3. Time and distance, maybe? Even now, the only episodes I can stand to rewatch are 301, 305,  308, 320, and 323.

For season 4, I liked 401, 402, 403, 406, 409, 411, 412, 414, 417, 420, 421. And since this is the bitterness thread, I'd rank the storylines that bothered me the most 1. BMD (by far) 2. Felicity's paralysis arc getting dropped 3. Sara's resurrection Laurel's arc 4. Saint Laurel's canonizaton 5. how Oliver and Felicity's breakup was handled

[Angel12d]

I didn't make my list on episodes I could stand to rewatch. It was more episodes I found okay/enjoyable when they aired. So yeah, my list might actually be shorter!

[kismet]

I can't split out the episodes I liked in s3 v s4, I might be too disappointed with the results. All I know is I loved s2 & s1 and then s4 & s3 are a mixed bad.

For me its a matter of potential. s4 had amazing potential and fell short time after time. s3 never had potential, but managed to eek out some good episodes despite an overall lackluster agenda.

So for me its hard - because do I reward failing to live up to potential or setting a low bar that any small accomplishment seems good? I'd think I prefer to remain neutral. I'm just hoping s5 gets it together and strives to be the show I know Arrow can be. From all I heard, I have little belief that is going to happen. Then again, if they keep talking a low game perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised when they bring their A game.

[tv echo]

I find that I mostly loved half of each season - S1B, S2A (+223) , S3A (+320, 323) and S4A (+411).

Edited July 9, 2016 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

9 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I'm a little surprised so many people liked that much of season 3. Time and distance, maybe? Even now, the only episodes I can stand to rewatch are 301, 305,  308, 320, and 323.

I generally don't rewatch episodes of shows. I watch SPN on TNT a lot and I'm addicted to Law & Order and L&O:CI in reruns but, that's about it. My list was based on episodes i liked during each season.  

If i counted episodes by rewatch they'd all be even at 0 since I've never rewatched an Arrow episode. ?

Edited July 9, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

After S4 ended I haven't gone back to rewatch anything. Well, technically I did rewatch the finale the next day. But that was it. Which is weird for me, because I tend to rewatch A LOT of stuff, and Arrow is super duper easy to leave in the background while I'm working. I did that plenty with 401-407, btw. 408 killed my habit.

[Midnight Lullaby]

For my taste there were more enjoyable episodes in season 4 than in season 3, the problem is the BMD that taints everything for me.

[DrSpaceman10]

I didn't like 4A that much. There were a few okay episodes (401, OTA part of 403, 406, 409), but there was too much LoT setup/Lance Family Drama/BMD for me. 

[Angel12d]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

I didn't like 4A that much. There were a few okay episodes (401, OTA part of 403, 406, 409), but there was too much LoT setup/Lance Family Drama/BMD for me. 

Fast-forward button. For all your Lance family drama/BMD needs.

[Password]

15 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I didn't make my list on episodes I could stand to rewatch. It was more episodes I found okay/enjoyable when they aired. So yeah, my list might actually be shorter!

Yes this is exactly what I did. The episodes I listed I found quite enjoyable in season 3 but haven't rewatched a single one...No wait I did rewatch Felicity's episode and the mid season finale. But not since season 3 ended...oh and 3x20.

Whereas I've rewatched season 4 episodes. 

Edited July 9, 2016 by Password
Snap, I've rewatched several season 3 episodes

[kismet]

I'm bitter that I had to change my icon to reflect my current feelings towards Arrow. I feel adrift on a dinghy of despair, disappointment and dread. They promised me back to

Spoiler

basics. And the more interviews I read, the more it seems back to basics is not on the agenda. I know I need to be patient and wait to see how they execute their plans. But as of now, I'm not hopeful.

Is it too much to ask for a return to what made Arrow good? A kickass OTA. An intelligent and skilled OQ. A loving group of family & friends. With a little bit of secrets & secret agendas.

I just want to be able to use my original icon of Arrow, but its been nearly a year since all that excitement for the show vanished.

Edited July 25, 2016 by kismet

[kismet]

25 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Yeah, I actually find a lot of O/F's earlier interactions more romantic and meaningful than some of their moments as a couple.

Quote from the relationship thread.

I think that was why I became so bitter that they messed it all up in s4 when they actually became a couple. I don't get how the writers can mess it up and yet they did.

And now for s5 all the talk of

Spoiler

"back to basics" make me think that they are trying to get back to that combo of deep love and pining. And perhaps new relationships for both of them will bring that to life. But that is not what I find enjoyable.

It is just not as easy to do after you put them in a committed engagement. I could have dealt with it and maybe even found it entertaining in s3/4 if they had kept them will they or won't they despite their obvious deep love. It's not as fun now that they gave it to us and decided to torpedo it for plot purposes.  I will never not be bitter that I fell in love with a coupling and the writers f**kd it all up. I could have dealt with my pining for a will they/won't they couple. But now I feel cheated by the writers and I know that they will continue to manipulate the audience and the coupling. I get that TV 101 loves will they/won't they pairings. I just don't appreciate the choices the writers made.

[RussianRoulette]

@kismet you pretty much summed up my feelings! I will be forever bitter about how they wrote them as a couple. I mean why is it so hard to write them as a steady couple in the background while still letting them have conflicts as many people do? This was a rhetorical question btw, that's because plot! and drama! I am also bitter that nobody can actually understand that their chemistry means serious business - as in you can cash on that for free promo, storytelling, gathering viewers- without sacrificing ~action sequences and gritty stories~. 

[Angel12d]

I didn't hate how they wrote them as a couple...until 408 happened. I liked what they did in s4a (even though it wasn't perfect) and enjoyed a lot of their moments together. I thought they kept them mostly in the background and gave them focus when needed, like in 406 (even though I have some issues with that). S4a showed me that they can write romance and action if they choose to. But they just wanted the drama too, and they wanted to break them up. And they did it in the most contrived way possible that didn't make sense for their characters or for Oliver's character journey. That's where they went wrong.

And then of course getting them engaged and almost married was probably the worst thing they could have done if they always intended to break them up and see other people. It's the engagement and the real vows at their fake wedding that makes what's coming unpalatable. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Angel12d

[Morrigan2575]

I liked 4A, it's always the back half that gives me issues.

401 - 403 were good episodes, i skipped 404/405 was traveling and then never bothered to watch them on DVR. I really like 406 nd 409. 

407 was a stupid episode that seemed to only existto go from 1 fight scene to the next and the directing was terrible, IMO. However, I liked the stuff that focused on Felicity/Ray.

I didn't like 408 that much, firstly it focused on lousy characters/actors, IMO. Plus the stupid BMD and OMG Breakup/fight plus episode ending lie. It was just a poorly done/lazy episode, IMO

[kismet]

8 episodes out of 23, is really only a third. If you break s4 into s4a; 4b; 4c - then I will say that I did like 4a from an O/F as a couple perspective.  But from the crossover on, it was bad writing choices for the couple - I even give a little side-eye to 406.  And honestly being a excited & willing rider the pre-s4 engagement in s4 train; I was still bitter with that execution. That was not how I wanted to see my couple get engaged. It had nothing to do with the BMD or the limo ride. I thought the public engagement was poorly written and to some degree acted. I enjoyed the in-episode O/F moments far better than the proposal.

Oh well, s5 is on our doorstep - so fingers crossed I'll find something else to be bitter about. O/F was one of the things I used to love about the show. To have it become one of the things I'm bitter about has been a big blow to my desire to watch or support Arrow.

[SonofaBiscuit]

19 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

It's my case. OTA could make me sit through a lot of weak writing, the hope that they'd be front and center again made me come back from several hiatus.  In the beginning of S4, I had good hope that the show was back on tracks. It made the disappointment only bigger.
 

I see it a lot on general sites, with the sempiternal "catering to shippers killed the show" and I'm shaking my head. Last year, they heavily advertised happy Olicity during the summer and the ratings were 1.0 and above. This year, they heavily advertised that Olicity wouldn't be together. Well...

In my personal case, the ton of newbies and the new love interest(s) (unspoiled, but I'm pretty sure that Oliver will get a "Lois Lane") made me realize at long last that the showrunners aren't interested in writing what I want to watch, meaning what the show mostly was in S1-S2: Oliver/Diggle/Felicity fighting crime without magic or superpowers or time travel, with Oliver/Felicity in a romantic relationship but without soapy drama.

So I gave up. I didn't even watch the season premiere. I stopped reading recaps after it. I don't click on articles about Arrow anymore, except on general ones like ratings news. I do think that the debate weighed on the numbers this week (and they might still adjust up). But I'm certainly far from the only fan of the first hour whom TPTB finally wore out. 

I have also stopped watching the show for many of the reasons you have cited above.  Finally free from Laurel, I thought that season 5 would return to the OTA dynamic that I loved so much.  Instead, I was presented with a bunch of new masks that I have zero interest in watching.  

I no longer ship Olicity (baby mama drama was the final straw), but I find that the show works so much better when they are a happy, drama-free couple.  The baby mama crap just ruined everything because Felicity was right to kick Oliver to the curb, but I also have no desire to go back to their season 1 and 2 dynamic where we're supposed to forget that they were ever engaged.

I don't care about the new love interests.  I suffered through Ray and that was enough for me.

This season was supposed to be "grounded" and "back to basics," yet I've seen spoilers about 

Spoiler

aliens and magic rags.  WHAT. THE. FUCK?!  

I am SO irritated that Flashpoint was allowed to affect Arrow.  I hate that the shared universe allowed Barry Allen to make changes to a show that he isn't even part of.  Sara Diggle hates it too.

Finally, 

Spoiler

Laurel Lance.  UGH.  I can't deal with KC popping up on the show anymore, I really can't.  

That was the final piece of news that did me in.  HARD PASS.

[calliope1975]

I think I'm going to have to take a step back until I see how the first half of the season goes. The spec and spoilers I'm seeing are not appealing and not something I want to watch. I feel ridiculous that a TV show ties me up in knots, but it is what it is. I hope they can work out this noob situation, get Olicity back together, reunite OTA, and then I'm in again. For now, it's a wait and see approach. 

[EmeraldArcher]

2 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I think I'm going to have to take a step back until I see how the first half of the season goes. The spec and spoilers I'm seeing are not appealing and not something I want to watch. I feel ridiculous that a TV show ties me up in knots, but it is what it is. I hope they can work out this noob situation, get Olicity back together, reunite OTA, and then I'm in again. For now, it's a wait and see approach. 

I'm pretty much of the same mind.  Last week was the first time I haven't watched live--I've even managed to watch live hours after surgeries--and I didn't watch live last night either.  After the Sara Diggle erasure was revealed on Flash, I didn't think I'd watch ever again because I was both ragey and feeling rejected as a female viewer. But, then I was despondent because Arrow has been my show--the only one I watch live and the only one in whose fandom I participate--so I watched both episodes from the DVR.

Now that I've processed my own feelings about Sara Diggle, I've realized that Arrow might have permanently lost its spark for me. I can't even love the great Olicity interactions because they're colored by this dread about other LIs. Baby Canary is as worthless a character and about as awful in portrayal as KC's LL. I look at the shoddy production work and the lame acting by several of the new characters (and even some who have been around awhile) and wonder why I stick with this show when there are SO MANY BETTER shows out there. Better written. Better acted. Better directed. Better funded. Better promoted.

I probably better just take a step back, too.

[looptab]

Disclaimer: Keep in mind I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, or  saying that you guys are wrong if you feel like you do.

I'd like to offer my POV on the state of the show. I think these first few episodes are of transition. True, there are new characters, but they're not getting the focus, IMO - not yet, at least - they're very much in  service of Oliver. And I assume they will be in service of other characters going forward.

About OTA, I share the disappointment, but right now it's not quite possible to have the three of them - Diggle is abroad, and in prison, and with the intention of staying there. I won't say it'll go back to how it was as soon as he gets back - they've been promising that and not delivering for far too long. But I'm curious to see how the new dynamic with the boobs will affect the old guard. So far, it's a joy to watch Oliver and Felicity interact with them.

As far as Oliver and Felicity, true, it's  a step back from what they had last season. But, if I watch just the show,  ignoring whatever the EPs say, I don't see them ignoring their relationship and acting like they were never engaged. I see two people still very close, trying to work together for a common purpose.

What I'm saying is, it's too soon to judge. And, at any rate, if you guys feel like dropping the show, aat least don't drop the board :)

Edited October 20, 2016 by looptab

[EmeraldArcher]

@looptab, for me, it really comes down to the erasure of Sara Diggle.  All of the rest of it?  I stayed hooked through all of S3's canned episodes, MN's RAG, the reduction of fight sequences to no more than twirling to knock the bad guys out, countless scenes in the same warehouse and ally, the BMD(!), LL/BC (!), the weird fixation on MM as Thea's daddy, SmoakNLance, Nyssa's forced marriage, and the sleeveless suit--so I'm not normally picky about the show or demanding high quality. I've LOVED Arrow through all of that and forgave its stupidity faster than Barry Allen can screw things up.

So, yeah, I grumble about acting and new characters and plot holes, but if there were a hint, a whiff of a suggestion that they would undo the erasure of a female character, I'd allow myself to hop right back on the train. I won't drop the board--I've been so glad for this haven--but I also won't constantly impose my bitterness on everybody.  I'll just go back to lurking and liking posts for awhile until I have nicer things to say. :-)