Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Morrigan2575]

This whole season is like 'SQUIRREL!'.

 

I honestly think they had a basic outline planned out and then got so distracted along the way they missed the point and either had to loop around to grab it or just said "Whatever! Have a Mask!"

ironically I recall MG and SA saying this season was the most planned story to date and supposedly S4 is even more so. I can see that to an extent because they have routinely sacrificed character to serve a predetermined plot/end point

[Sakura12]

I'm sure they planned how to get from Point A to Point Z, but decided to take point 4, 20, and 86 to get there. 

[AyChihuahua]

"I'm sure they planned how to get from Point A to Point Z, but decided to take point 4, 20, and 86 to get there."

 

I would argue they took Albert Einstein, oranges, and the entire Douglas Adams oeuvre to get there, but totally agree with your basic point.

[NumberCruncher]

I'll agree with that, @Sakura. I do think that things got plotted out but unfortunately they had to twist and contort the stories so much to get from Point A to Point Z that I'm pretty sure viewers at one point or another have had a "WTF? That makes zero sense!" moment this season. I don't think there would be as many complaints otherwise.

[Sakura12]

I was also kind of going with meaning of those specific numbers (4/20 and 86) more than just choosing random ones. ;)

[Ang]

You know, 3.18 wasn't the worst episode I've ever seen. It's not even the worst episode of Arrow this calendar year. There were some truly enjoyable things about it. But it made me so sick I haven't even been following or posting in the episode thread, and I've been avoiding the forum in general, which is saying something because the fandom is why I'm watching this show in the first place - I was first charmed and amused by the online enthusiasm I saw for the show and characters, and then I gave the show another shot and started really enjoying it.

 

Let's see, 3.18 had: heretofore unheard of twin sister; hospitalizations where life-threatening conditions (not to mention major surgery) leave the patient chipper, coherent, pain-free and to all appearances perfectly healthy; characters being told how they really feel; and many, many instances showing questionable understanding of the law/police procedures; inexplicably extreme emotions leading to slaps or premature declarations of love. It all screams SOAP OPERA, and with the EP taking half the credit for writing it, I'm just hella depressed that this is what has become of one of my favorite shows. I feel like I've just been in denial, and I was glossing over the Soapy elements because I was enjoying watching a live-action comic book show. I still like the actors, I still like some of the elements of the show. But I realized I've been hoping the show would come into its own and start really living up to its potential. That hope has been gasping for breath since the winter hiatus, and now it's on its deathbed, in desperate need of some Magic Omniscient Nanobots injected into its carotid artery. Where's Felicity when I need her??

[statsgirl]

Well, when you write it out like that..... ouch!

 

This show has always been part comic book and part soap opera but it feels like this season they left out the logic. The whole Malcolm Merlyn protection arc, which I still hate, was only to bring Ra's al Ghul onto the stage.  But since Sara was in the LoA already, there could have been a whole number of ways to bring Ra's in without making Oliver look like an idiot for trusting the man who killed his father, best friend and 500+ other people, and continuing to trust him after he had his sister brainwashed and kill Oliver's good friend.

[kismet]

I'll agree with that, @Sakura. I do think that things got plotted out but unfortunately they had to twist and contort the stories so much to get from Point A to Point Z that I'm pretty sure viewers at one point or another have had a "WTF? That makes zero sense!" moment this season. I don't think there would be as many complaints otherwise.

Plot twists are one thing. Completely disregarding, truncating, & manipulating characters is a whole other thing.

I dont care if stuff doesn't make sense plot wise. I mean I appreciate if I can figure out how they get there. But the biggest thing I care about is character development, growth & relationships. And this season has been unkind & in some cases unacceptably atrocious to just about every character. About the only person that came out better was thea and thats likely because bar was set so low previous seasons.

[tv echo]

Did anyone sort of notice that the whole Oliver teaming up with Malcolm arc was dropped? Like what was the point in teaming up with Malcolm again?

This also served to drive a wedge between Oliver and Felicity, causing her to say that "I don't want to be a woman you love" line, and partly leading her to hook up with Ray.  Otherwise, Oliver returns alive and Felicity is overjoyed; she doesn't become disillusioned by Oliver teaming up with Malcolm.

Edited April 7, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

So CW Arrow on Twitter tried to entice me to watch Nanda Parbat again this evening... and I have to give a strong pass. I mean I will miss the first flight of the ATOM suit, but I didn't really get jazzed then, I can't imagine it will do anything this time around. That had to be one of the worst episodes of the season. It was so convoluted & meh. I really wanted to tell that to twitter, but I did that the first time it aired. I just can't sit through it again. I might tune in just for the bromance scene between Diggle & Oliver about the best man, but that might not even be worth it. Why do they have to keep picking all the worse of the season to reair during hiatuses?

[lexicon]

This also served to drive a wedge between Oliver and Felicity, causing her to say that "I don't want to be a woman you love" line, and partly leading her to hook up with Ray.  Otherwise, Oliver returns alive and Felicity is overjoyed; she doesn't become disillusioned by Oliver teaming up with Malcolm.

 

It's hard to shake the feeling that this wasn't the main purpose of the teaming up with MM SL since nothing else seemed to come of it.

[Ang]

It's hard to shake the feeling that this wasn't the main purpose of the teaming up with MM SL since nothing else seemed to come of it.

Yes! Even starting from the "let's have OQ team up with MM for drama!" point, could they seriously not spare an hour to think of a logical extension for it?

[KirkB]

The whole teaming with Malcolm think HASN'T amounted to anything but tension between the team, which has all but been forgotten itself. Oliver didn't get any special training or knowledge from Malcolm. He's no better off now than he was before it started. Thrown into a fight with Ra's again he would get his ass kicked for a second time. His siding with Malcolm seems to have existed solely for the purpose of pushing Felicity away toward Ray, and giving Laurel a leg to stand on for worming her way into the lair. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by KirkB

[apinknightmare]

It also pushed Thea towards Roy (and added to her general messed-upedness), since Malcolm was convalescing on their couch. And I'm sure Oliver will, at some point, bust out some of the sweet sword fighting moves that we have to assume Malcolm taught him when we weren't looking.

[tv echo]

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the EPs came up with dialogue lines that they liked ("I don't want to be a woman you love") and then developed the plot around it.  I just imagine AK coming up with

that line he seems to love about Ray - "He's like Barry in Oliver's body." - and then the EPs figuring out how to lead up to Felicity saying that line.

[KirkB]

Okay, I'll give you the Thea/Roy thing. I forgot about that. But if Malcolm did teach him some sweet sword moves which will allow him to defeat the Demon's Head, isn't that the kind of thing they really ought to SHOW? I have rarely seen producers so wed to the idea of tell, not show.

[apinknightmare]

Okay, I'll give you the Thea/Roy thing. I forgot about that. But if Malcolm did teach him some sweet sword moves which will allow him to defeat the Demon's Head, isn't that the kind of thing they really ought to SHOW? I have rarely seen producers so wed to the idea of tell, not show.

 

Well, they showed us once, like...five episodes ago. Isn't that enough?!

 

/sarcasm

[SmallScreenDiva]

The whole teaming with Malcolm think HASN'T amounted to anything but tension between the team, which has all but been forgotten itself. Oliver didn't get any special training or knowledge from Malcolm. He's no better off now than he was before it started. Thrown into a fight with Ra's again he would get his ass kicked for a second time. His siding with Malcolm seems to have existed solely for the purpose of pushing Felicity away toward Ray, and giving Laurel a leg to stand on for worming her way into the lair. 

 

This, seriously. I hope the show remembers this before the end of the season, sooner rather than later. And I hope the major conflicts that followed are actually addressed, not ignored (I'm kinda resigned that they will be ignored, this is Arrow). I hope someone, preferably Diggle, talks to Oliver about his decision-making. I'm praying that when Oliver and Felicity talk (before the sexy times), that Felicity brings this up because it IS a major conflict in their relationship.

[AyChihuahua]

They are also retconning, BIG TIME, the fight with Ra's.  That thing that Malcolm said about why he sent them to Lian Yu/Slade, that Oliver told Malcolm he lost the fight because of his (Oliver's) humanity.  That is RIDICULOUS.  Ra's absolutely kicked his sorry white butt all over that mountain.  That being said, I am nearly 100% sure that he will have a rematch with Ra's, and he (with his team and Nyssa) will beat Ra's, which makes NO SENSE AT ALL.  But hey, what about this season has?

 

To be clear, the team together beating Ra's is fine with me.  But I think he'll actually have a swordfighting rematch and suddenly be a whole lot better.  We have seen him practice more, but they just made that fight far too one-sided for any amount of practice to provide a significant change in outcome.

Edited April 9, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[tarotx]

Yep unless Ra wants Oliver to win this time.

[SonofaBiscuit]

They are also retconning, BIG TIME, the fight with Ra's.  That thing that Malcolm said about why he sent them to Lian Yu/Slade, that Oliver told Malcolm he lost the fight because of his (Oliver's) humanity.  That is RIDICULOUS.  Ra's absolutely kicked his sorry white butt all over that mountain.

 

There must have been something in the air because even Ra's was a bit confused after the fight.  He was talking crazy about choosing Oliver as his heir, but we all know that the magical prophesying sword blade chose Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

And the magical prophesying mountain ledge of stick-out-from-the-mountain-in-a-very-convenient-place-ness and apparent softness.

Edited April 9, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[FurryFury]

Let's see, 3.18 had: heretofore unheard of twin sister;

 

I don't watch the show anymore, but when I've heard about Shado's twin my reaction was "Are you kidding me?" Seriously, "backup twin" is the epitome of a lazy storytelling device.

[statsgirl]

But, but the previously-unknown-twin is a standard of soap operas.  How is it you were surprised? 

Will the White Canary be Sara's previously unheard of evil twin?

[calliope1975]

With what they've actually shown, the only way Oliver will beat Ra's in a rematch is channeling Indiana Jones, pulling a gun out and going for the head shot.

[Guest]

Let's be real, none of this season makes sense when you start to question it. All decisions lead back to two things - make Laurel BC and give Malcolm a reason to be a season regular and both started with killing off Sara. Even Oliver getting stabbed and pushed off that cliff was so more time was spent setting up Laurel's arc. Then they had to think of a way to keep Oliver and Felicity apart - shove Malcolm in there as an excuse. And what even was the point of Shado's twin? It was just unnecessary.

 

Nothing that's happened has felt character driven. It's all plot driven and it's crap.

[Genki]

Don't forget about wanting to create another spin-off.

[FurryFury]

But, but the previously-unknown-twin is a standard of soap operas.  How is it you were surprised?

 

I guess the depths this show can sink to still manage to surprise me. And to think I once had such high hopes for it...

[Chaser]

This makes me happy, but I should probably put in the bitterness thread. I have a new co-worker and I had my first actual conversation with the guy this morning. Big comic book fan and loves The Flash and loved Arrow up until this season. He hates the new Black Canary and Laurel in general (esp the lying to Lance part). He isn't a fan of the mystery this season. He wishes it would go back to Team Arrow. I got to say, it makes me happy.

[MostlyC]

Ahem.

 

This is a spoiler free thread.  Remember?  It's on the top of the pages post where we say it's a spoiler free thread.

 

For those few who have forgotten:  We're not allowed to be bitter about episodes that haven't aired yet.  At least not here.  I hear the Spoiler Discussion Thread is a spoiler happy place.

[kismet]

The thing about training with MM is to some degree I understood the value of it. Not to partner or shelter MM, that's a different story. MM does have a certain skill set that OQ can learn from. Which leads to another nagging bitterness~ why didn't Oliver think of training more (esp with swords) before he went to Mountain Battle Royale? Let's face it, if Ras likes to use swords MM is really OQ only option in SC to help him acquire sword skills that are on the level of LoA. It's not like there is some LoA training dojo strategically placed in SC. It's not the training that bothered me. But it was the lack of communication about why he needed to acquire these new skills that left me very bitter. If he had just sat down & explained his rationale. And not give the dumb hokey "only the student can beat the master" as reason to train. Explain the realities of the situation. I think it would have saved some of the tension/aggravation between OQ & TA. But plot dictated, OQ explain nothing which is why it was so obnoxious to watch. Seriously, a solid conversation could have saved us significant angst and wasted time. Perhaps even allow time to be spent on creating an entertaining story/plot.

Edited April 9, 2015 by kismet

[tennisgurl]

 

Seriously, a solid conversation could have saved us significant angst and wasted time. Perhaps even allow time to be spent on creating an entertaining story/plot.

Ding ding ding! We have our solution! None of the stupid crap that has happened this season would be as bad if people would just freaking talk to each other (ok, we would still have Laurel as the worst Canary ever, dead Sara, and TinCan Iron Man)! At least it would have been better!

 

But instead, they are so into having people run from one plot to the next, we never have time to see how it actually affects people. I feel like the writers are constantly danging keys in my face, hoping I`ll get distracted by its shininess. 

[tv echo]

I hate it when a fan asks a valid question and gets a flippant response (unless MG is avoiding a spoiler)...

saagar-a asked:

Why did Merlyn think that Oliver had any chance against Ra's al Ghul?

He’s a cock-eyed optimist.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited April 10, 2015 by tv echo

[KirkB]

Yeah, that kind of thing always bugs me. I get producers and directors being asked questions they can't answer for various, and I know they're usually trying to be cute or clever, but to me it comes off kind of either dickish or arrogant. If you can't or don't want to answer the question fine, just say no comment and move on. 

[tv echo]

I'm thinking that they really have no good explanation for Malcolm sending Oliver to duel Ra's -  that it was just a plot device to have Oliver survive the duel (fulfilling the prophecy) and then get picked as Ra's successor.  If there was a good explanation for Malcolm's reasoning that would be revealed in the remaining episodes, then MG would've said something like "keep watching".

[kismet]

Yeah, that kind of thing always bugs me. I get producers and directors being asked questions they can't answer for various, and I know they're usually trying to be cute or clever, but to me it comes off kind of either dickish or arrogant. If you can't or don't want to answer the question fine, just say no comment and move on. 

Well it annoys me especially on MG's tumblr, because he literally gets to pick & choose what he answers. So if you don't have an answer, don't choose that question.

 In a live or print interview its not as easy, but there are diplomatic ways to answer the questions that some have managed to answer beautifully and others are still a work in progress.

[statsgirl]

Ding ding ding! We have our solution! None of the stupid crap that has happened this season would be as bad if people would just freaking talk to each other (ok, we would still have Laurel as the worst Canary ever, dead Sara, and TinCan Iron Man)! At least it would have been better!

 

But instead, they are so into having people run from one plot to the next, we never have time to see how it actually affects people. I feel like the writers are constantly danging keys in my face, hoping I`ll get distracted by its shininess. 

That what they do to get you to pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

 

The "it would all have been settled months ago if only they had just talked to each other" is pretty much the definition of a soap opera.  But soaps have to put on 250 hours of programming a year. Arrow has only 23.

[chaos is welcome]

I don't think I will ever, ever stop being bitter that Laurel is taken seriously as a costumed hero, or that they call her bc in the script while Oliver is still just Arrow. No. No. No.

[lexicon]

And the magical prophesying mountain ledge of stick-out-from-the-mountain-in-a-very-convenient-place-ness and apparent softness.

 

THIS!

 

Even if I could stretch my mind to believe that Tatsu and her magical cup of neverending penicillin tea were enough to heal the wounds caused by the massive sword through the chest that Oliver took, I will never understand how we're supposed to accept that he was left relatively unscathed from falling off a cliff and landing on what was basically snow-covered rock.

 

If the EP's are willing to renege on their earlier claims that Arrow would remain a 'grounded' show then this was the time and more importantly the character with which to do it. After all, who better than your titular character to enjoy the benefits of the introduction of magic and powers to your show? Instead, poor Oliver seems to be destined to suffer only the indignities of being the main character in a show, in which his journey seems to have become second to the need to add more and more 'heroes'  and 'metahumans' to the roster.  

[Genki]

I'm bitter that the IIC are willing to screw up continuity and their own narrative to pimp Ray Palmer. 

 

Regardless of when Flash 1.18 was meant to air and the network schedule change, in no way did the jaunt off to Central City fit into Arrow's storyline, even if it had air before 3.18.

 

We don't really know when it is meant to be, but It has to be after 3.16 since Felicity did not know that Ray's suit worked at the start of 3.17 and does in the Flash 1.18.

Even of it was between the make-up scene and the Mayor's office scene in 1.17, why did Felicity and Ray go all the way to Central City when there was a crisis with Team Arrow? Trying to get the manhunt off the Arrow would surely take precedence. Also wouldn't the interaction be more strained given they just had their first major fight? 

 

It just doesn't fit in anywhere, so basically not only have they turned characters into pretzel to prop Ray Palmer they compromised their own story's cohesion.

THIS IS A SPOILER FREE THREAD  -MC

[tarotx]

Ray is Felicity's job not just her BF. There really wasn't anything she was going to do to get the man hunt off Arrow. She might as well work.

But tellimg people's secerets? Yeah not cool of the writers to forced that on Felicity.

[Chaser]

They mentioned doing re writes whether it was to Arrow or Flash I don't know, but I'm willing to bet they made it worse. If they had just played it like it was originally scripted and then just did a PSA type message before the Flash episode, I think it would have worked better.

 

Felicity mentioning Barry's secret ticked me off more then anything. It was lazy. They didn't want to have to worry about everyone finding out so they just had Felicity tell Ray. It was stupid.

[looptab]

I'm more than a little bitter about Colton Haynes leaving the show. If the little story the EPs are telling it's true, and they have always known he was going to leave, they really made a poor job with his character in the little time they had. I don't know if they offered to renew his contract and he refused, or if they didn't even ask because they introduced so many characters so quickly they don't know what to do with them. Still, this season I had really started appreciating him, and I'm going to miss him. I'm also going to miss his interviews with EBR.

 

But most of all, I'm sooo bitter that he has got the send-off I wish another *unnamed* character had, ahah.

Edited April 19, 2015 by looptab

[TanyaKay]

Tommy, Moira and now Roy, all the characters fans have been rooting for are written off and characters with little story or relevance are given more time and props....

So not fair and it makes me so so bitter.

[FurryFury]

But most of all, I'm sooo bitter that he has got the send-off I wish another *unnamed* character had, ahah.

 

No, Tommy got the send-off this *unnamed* character should have had. Or Moira. Or Sara. Or Shado. Roy's exit is just too good.

Edited April 19, 2015 by FurryFury

[looptab]

No, Tommy got the send-off this *unnamed* character should have had. Or Moira. Or Sara. Or Shado. Roy's exit is just too good.

LOL, yes. you are right. I misspoke, I meant it more in a "X should have been sent off instead of Roy" than the send-off itself :)

[lexicon]

Ray is Felicity's job not just her BF. There really wasn't anything she was going to do to get the man hunt off Arrow. She might as well work.

But tellimg people's secerets? Yeah not cool of the writers to forced that on Felicity.

 

Unless I'm mistaken (and I could be because lord knows I watched as little of the Flash episode as I could) nothing about the jaunt to CC had anything to do with Felicity's job at Palmer Tech and everything to do with helping her BF fix his malfunctioning suit, so it's wasn't work that took her away during the police manhunt for the Arrow. Then again, is it really surprising considering that's been the MO for much of this season as Felicity has been called upon on numerous occasions to leave TA or the Foundry in the midst of a crisis or a pow wow about a crisis to run off to prop Ray, just so that BR could make his contractually obligated number of appearances. Sending her off to CC with RP was simply yet another way that she was shuttled off to Palmer Island. 

[tarotx]

Acting as his girlfriend while in CC doesn't change things. He is still her job. He hired her to get to that suit and to get it working. That suit has been a large chunk of her work at PL.

[Starfish35]

I'm extremely bitter because after watching this last episode, I've realized that Malcolm is now officially the Regina Mills of Arrow. We're never going to get rid of him now, are we? And he's never ever going to pay what he's done. :(

[kismet]

I'm extremely bitter because after watching this last episode, I've realized that Malcolm is now officially the Regina Mills of Arrow. We're never going to get rid of him now, are we? And he's never ever going to pay what he's done. :(

The thing with Regina is at least the writers have written her as trying to make up for her bad acts. I can buy her redemption arc, because it is being written as her trying to make amends. She is struggling with her past mistakes & bad choices. She has taken responsibility & asked for forgiveness/redemption. So its believable & human. Plus the show is fairy-tale based & not reality based so the broad strokes of good v. evil & justice v. getting away with it are easier to swallow. He may love Thea, but that is not enough for me to believe that he will be one of the good guys. Whereas I think Regina could be one of the good guys because of her love of Henry & because she's proven she's willing to try to defeat evil & change.

 

Malcolm on the other hand has done no such thing. He wants to be the loving father. But he has done little to prove he loved his daughter up until this episode. I did believe his love during his grief moments. But it was a little too late. He willingly put her in the LoA path. He has not taken any responsibility for SL's death or the undertaking. OQ had to yell at him to get on the plane, he wasn't even willing to try to save his daughter.The only times he's actually been moved to do something honorable is when FS, OQ or someone else is guilting him into doing something. So I don't believe that he is on a legitimate redemption arc, sadly nor do I believe that the writers are writing him as having some ulterior masterplan. I mean I hope they are writing him as having this secret evil plot simmering under his behavior this season. But that might be wishful thinking & hoping. I mean I'm really hoping he might go the Sloan route on Alias, but the writers may be tricking me with false hopes.

 

Everything about how they used Malcolm this season has been to force plot & explain stupidity. I hope it was not for nothing & there is some big pay-off. But there might not be. Regina on the other hand, at least has played a bigger role in helping to bring down evil after she chose the good side. In many ways, MM has felt almost like Gold's plot line. Where they keep on trying to redeem this character that serves no purpose being good & honestly has his most of his best scenes when he is not good and playing his wicked angles. He had one shining moment with Neil that ended the Wizard of OZ arc, but that was made all the better because at his heart you know he is still mostly bad but still loves his son. His origin story has shown how the darkness has taken hold of him & it works. They need to stop trying to bring him to the light & just let him be who he is. Similar with MM, they need to keep him in the "not good" column because he just has too much darkness in him to make me think he would ever join the good side without some decent payoff/enticements for him.

Edited April 24, 2015 by kismet