All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, companionenvy said:

For instance, I still care about Cas, but while he gets screen time, he hasn't had anything approaching an interesting storyline for ages -- plus, they've neutered him to a painful extent, to the point where he's either hapless comic relief or a broody sad-sack. His plans pretty much always fail, and while the show pays lip service to caring about his emotional state, the fact that, after all the attention S4 and 5 gave to Cas's faith and the search for God, he didn't even get a conversation with Chuck speaks volumes about how little attention his characterization is actually getting.

Crowley is even worse. Crowley was great in small doses as the clever antagonist who might occasionally have a little more to him, emotionally speaking, then the average demon (i.e, curing Bobby's paralysis). But as a more frequent player, he's a loss: he's done way too many awful, awful things for us to really care about him, yet he has also been defanged to the point where he isn't scary. 

I agree 1000x's to this. In my opinion the last interesting strong Cas storyline was when he was trying to defeat Raphael's attempts to take over Heaven. Everything that came after including the Leviathans, mind control via Naomi and getting tricked by Metatron was awful to watch. Cas as introduced in seasons 4-5 was portrayed as much stronger; everything afterwards has bordered on pitiful. Crowley had some potential to be the big bad that he was in earlier seasons at the end of season 10 when the last of his lingering humanity was leeched after Sam tried to kill him but that didn't last very long. Rowena is more of a baddie than he is these days.

[rue721]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Crowley is even worse. Crowley was great in small doses as the clever antagonist who might occasionally have a little more to him, emotionally speaking, then the average demon (i.e, curing Bobby's paralysis). But as a more frequent player, he's a loss: he's done way too many awful, awful things for us to really care about him, yet he has also been defanged to the point where he isn't scary.

Honestly, I prefer Crowley now. Maybe this should be in the unpopular opinion thread!

I don't think Crowley was ever all that scary. He's done lots of terrible things, but at the same time, he's always been the "lesser evil." He's always been portrayed as a careerist above all. That's not a complaint, FWIW. I think that's what makes him interesting, and more than a mustache-twirler.

This should probably also go in the UO thread, but I like Crowley and Rowena's relationship. The show has laid the ~mommy issues~ on pretty thick in the past. But at this point, it seems that Rowena has legitimately won Crowley's respect, as an ambitious and powerful witch. Crowley is the one constantly reminding others that she's important and shouldn't be underestimated/forgotten because she's such a powerful witch, and he's the one constantly going to her for help doing magic. I find that believable.

I find it believable that Crowley would see her as someone very smart and competent, with a TON of drive, who is nevertheless constantly overlooked, underestimated, and mocked -- and identify very strongly with her because of all that. IMO that's pretty much exactly how he sees himself, and IMO that's also a type of person he likes (and respects) in general -- the little guy who knows what he's doing and is going to bust his ass until he does it. IMO that's why he likes the Winchesters as much as he does, and even tolerates/likes Cas pretty well.

TBH I think of Crowley and Rowena as a package deal at this point, and I've come to prefer both characters that way.

It's weird because I think they're pretty out of place in SPN (they're so goofy, and childlike somehow) but at the same time, I like them.

[SueB]

I didn't like the two "high concept" episodes (Hitler and LOTUS) all that much but other than that, I think it's been an awesome season. Even the two that I didn't like that much had some great moments.  But that's pretty par for the course IMO.  There's only two episodes of Supernatural that are completely un-redeemable to me (they are not hard to guess). 

[Myrelle]

I think that most of the episodes so far this season have been underwhelming. I think that Asa Fox was a good one and that the Hitler episode was decent enough, but the others that I watched barely registered(I've mostly forgotten about them already) and I've skipped two already. Not a good start to a season for this fan. Not at all. I can't even say that it's better than the low bar that S11 set except for the fact that we've gotten a bit more of ActionBadassDean in S12-when he isn't being sacrificed so that others can shine, that is-and who was pretty much completely MIA in S11.

So yeah, not impressed with 12 at all yet. But they still have more than half a season to go and I'm still checking in on the show every week.

The writing is still the biggest problem. I'm not even sure who the Big Bad is going to turn out to be yet and I'm pretty sure that the writers didn't have a plan for who that would be either. They've thrown the BMOL and Lucifer at the wall to see who sticks in that regard(again IMO) and we likely won't know who they've chosen until the very end of the season when they will likely tell us that they had it planned that way all along. I'm not seeing either one of those storylines as being well-loved by anything even approaching a majority in this fandom, so they can pick either one at this point; although if I were a betting person I'd say it will be Lucifer who will be dispatched in the finale and the BMOL will carry over, as is, into the next season. I think that Dabb loves them too much to get rid of them so quickly.

[mertensia]

If you haven't seen the episodes, how can you dislike them? 

[Diane]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I didn't like the two "high concept" episodes (Hitler and LOTUS) all that much but other than that, I think it's been an awesome season. Even the two that I didn't like that much had some great moments.  But that's pretty par for the course IMO.  There's only two episodes of Supernatural that are completely un-redeemable to me (they are not hard to guess). 

I have really enjoyed this season too, I loved season 11. 

 

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I think that most of the episodes so far this season have been underwhelming. I think that Asa Fox was a good one and that the Hitler episode was decent enough, but the others that I watched barely registered(I've mostly forgotten about them already) and I've skipped two already. Not a good start to a season for this fan. Not at all. I can't even say that it's better than the low bar that S11 set except for the fact that we've gotten a bit more of ActionBadassDean in S12-when he isn't being sacrificed so that others can shine, that is-and who was pretty much completely MIA in S11.

So yeah, not impressed with 12 at all yet. But they still have more than half a season to go and I'm still checking in on the show every week.

The writing is still the biggest problem. I'm not even sure who the Big Bad is going to turn out to be yet and I'm pretty sure that the writers didn't have a plan for who that would be either. They've thrown the BMOL and Lucifer at the wall to see who sticks in that regard(again IMO) and we likely won't know who they've chosen until the very end of the season when they will likely tell us that they had it planned that way all along. I'm not seeing either one of those storylines as being well-loved by anything even approaching a majority in this fandom, so they can pick either one at this point; although if I were a betting person I'd say it will be Lucifer who will be dispatched in the finale and the BMOL will carry over, as is, into the next season. I think that Dabb loves them too much to get rid of them so quickly.

 

22 minutes ago, mertensia said:

If you haven't seen the episodes, how can you dislike them? 

I have to ask if you haven't watched them how can you dislike them? I think the bar has been set up high after 11 it was such a resurgence after season 10.  I have only been a little underwhelmed with 2 episodes this season the Hitler and Lotus episodes. The rest have been good. Jmo though. 

[Myrelle]

I never said that I disliked the skipped episodes. I just stated that I skipped two and did not find many of the ones that I did watch to be very memorable. Skipping an episode just means that I refused to even chance watching it for fear that my head would explode and/or I would lose my lunch. I'm aware of how others felt about them(both here and at other sites I visit). After over 11 seasons, I now know very well what I can stomach and what I can't where it concerns this show. That's all. I post that I skip episodes to let others know who might read these boards and are wondering whether they should skip also because it's become yet another way of watching Supernatural out there now. I know many who do that and yes, some of them read this board too, even though they rarely or never post.

[Bessie]

I skip episodes too, @Myrelle. Spoilers usually provide me with enough information to have a good idea if an episode will interest me. I never used to skip them on purpose, but now I skip all the Lucifer- related episodes and I'll be skipping the upcoming Cas-centric episode. 

[Myrelle]

Between the spoilers and, more importantly, what's stated after an episode airs, I never doubt myself and my decision on whether to watch at all anymore. S5-8 cured me of that, but good. I started skipping entire episodes during the second half of S8 and found that I did quite well with this show that way. And even if I ever do feel doubt about one of those decisions, well, I own every season on DVD except S11 which I'm sure someone is giving me as a Christmas present this year.

[Aeryn13]

16 hours ago, companionenvy said:

From previous comments, I suspect I liked season 4 and 5 much more than you did, even apart from Swan Song (which I adored), but love it or hate it, the show had a major change in focus and scope between season 3 and 4 with the introduction of the angels and apocalypse plot, as well as in putting the brothers so at odds with each other (which I don't always think was handled as well as it might have been, but largely worked).

Heh, Season 5, no. The first four episodes were good but then it went to so much crap with the ending making me feel like I wasted 5 entire years watching the show, it ranks very low for me. But I actually love Season 4. Narratively I think it is the best Season of the show (Season 2 might overall have more individual highpoints so it`s a toss-up) because for once pacing wasn`t so much of an issue as they managed a good blend between mytharc and standalone. Counting down to the breaking of 66 seals allowed for "MOTW"-episodes to still be a seal-breaking and thus connect. Gave the entire storyline a more cohesive feeling than the start-stop-start-ignore-padding-start-ignore-start-stop-thing they usually do.

Now I know heavy serialized shows are less accessible to audiences so more showrunners/writers go for at least a semi-standalone route. I myself would be hesitant to jump into a new show when I know it`s been going on for a few years and it`s a tightly-woven narrative but when I`m already invested in some, I do prefer all story, all the time. Unless you do it like the X-Files and make the story so convoluted, viewers just tire of it. The only reason I liked the standalones more in the early Seasons of SPN is because those were Dean`s episodes to shine whereas he was background noise in the arc-episodes.

So buisness-wise I have always understood the approach of SPN but since theoretically I didn`t think their ideas for stories were bad, with a better execution I would have enjoyed to see the Seasons focus full on them. And this actually goes for all three previous showrunners, the fundamental ideas they had were fine with me. Some were even excellent and held vast potential. Unfortunetaly mainly unrealized. How you manage to fuck up Purgatory and the idea of Lovecraftian horror, I will never understand but alas. But they were idea-people.

It`s only Dabb now that I think doesn`t have any ideas, not even bad ones. And Singer is the accountant so I wouldn`t look to him creatively anyway.   

I`m not sure if I`d say that Season 4 marked a major shift compared to the previous Season, though. I guess I thought it was all building up to "bigger and badder" as many shows do so I felt it flowed organically to that point. But it was probably the biggest change in tone and perspective the show ever did, you are right. 

[FlickChick]

Agree, Aeryn. And unfortunately I agree about Dabb's leadership as a showrunner, which doesn't make this viewer a happy one. Writing has always been their shortfall, and it's gone downhill even more recently. Like you and others have mentioned - good set-ups but lousy follow-through. Now add in that the boys are cutting down on their screen time, and all the flaws glare even more. I'm hanging in for the season to see if they can turn this around, but if what SueB said is true and they've written almost ten more episodes already, there's not much hope. :(

[SueB]

58 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Agree, Aeryn. And unfortunately I agree about Dabb's leadership as a showrunner, which doesn't make this viewer a happy one. Writing has always been their shortfall, and it's gone downhill even more recently. Like you and others have mentioned - good set-ups but lousy follow-through. Now add in that the boys are cutting down on their screen time, and all the flaws glare even more. I'm hanging in for the season to see if they can turn this around, but if what SueB said is true and they've written almost ten more episodes already, there's not much hope. :(

1

We've seen EP 8.  They start filming EP14 right before break.  They are at LEAST up to EP18 in writing.  BASED ON THE PAST 5+ years:

- They work 7 episodes "ahead" at the start of the season but that backs down to 3 or 4 by the time January rolls around. In November the writers get together and plot out the back half of the season. Hence all the comments regarding "British Men of Letters".  By "ahead" I mean that if they are filming EP14 then EP15 is ready for Tech Scouting. EP 16 is getting approvals at the studio. EP17 is getting finalized by the producers. And EP 18 has at least past the outline level.  

- By late January/early February, they push to know if they are going to get renewed.  They generally hold off on the last 4 episodes of the season to allow them to either set up the next season or wrap the series.  They've always said they need "4" at a minimum to wrap the series.  OTOH, the boys have said that if they wrap the series, we'll have PLENTY of notice.  Which means that S13 is pretty much a guarantee.  The only decision is whether or not they are setting S13 up as the last or just planning to keep on keeping on.

- Based on how happy the network and studio are, I'd say there are no plans to wrap in S13.  BUT, until the EP's hear that from the CW, they can't count on that. Look for rumurs and rumblings in late Jan/early Feb regarding renewal.  Not to be finalized for a while after that.  But the producers will have some sense.

[MysteryGuest]

On December 15, 2016 at 9:40 PM, rue721 said:

Honestly, I prefer Crowley now. Maybe this should be in the unpopular opinion thread!

I don't think Crowley was ever all that scary. He's done lots of terrible things, but at the same time, he's always been the "lesser evil." He's always been portrayed as a careerist above all. That's not a complaint, FWIW. I think that's what makes him interesting, and more than a mustache-twirler.

This should probably also go in the UO thread, but I like Crowley and Rowena's relationship. The show has laid the ~mommy issues~ on pretty thick in the past. But at this point, it seems that Rowena has legitimately won Crowley's respect, as an ambitious and powerful witch. Crowley is the one constantly reminding others that she's important and shouldn't be underestimated/forgotten because she's such a powerful witch, and he's the one constantly going to her for help doing magic. I find that believable.

I know that Crowley isn't really scary anymore, but I'm with you, I like him on the show.  I enjoy the relationship dynamics when they're all together onscreen.  Rowena grated on my nerves something awful in her first season on the show, but I've come to really enjoy her, especially this season.  

As for season 12 in general, there are aspects that I've enjoyed very much, including most of the scenes with the boys and Mary, and at least the premise of the BMOL (but not so much the execution, at least so far).  I thought Mr. Ketch was going to be really cold-blooded and evil, but then he shows up like James Bond, so now I have no idea where they're going with this story.  I have to assume that Lady Toni will show up again at some point, and it's yet to be determined whether she'll actually be the good guy or the bad guy.  I'm not too happy with them making Sam and Dean look like a couple of rubes, so hopefully, that part of the story will get turned on it's ear by the end of the season.  

The major weak links for me are the inconsistent writing and the heavy emphasis on Lucifer.  And I would probably have more tolerance for the former (new writers and all that) if I didn't find the latter so endlessly boring.  The combination of bad writing and boring characters is tough to watch.

I'm looking forward to the shows return, and hopefully, the best episodes are yet to come.

[missbonnie]

Does anyone know why TNT has dropped the season finale from last year from their playlist? Both times when they got to that point they started over with the pilot after "We Happy Few". I just thought it was odd. 

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, missbonnie said:

Does anyone know why TNT has dropped the season finale from last year from their playlist? Both times when they got to that point they started over with the pilot after "We Happy Few". I just thought it was odd. 

Some spec it's a finale so premium cost? They didn't air BABY either.  We've been discussing that in the ratings thread and in How the Magic works thread in more detail if you're interested:)

[sarthaz]

35 minutes ago, missbonnie said:

Does anyone know why TNT has dropped the season finale from last year from their playlist? Both times when they got to that point they started over with the pilot after "We Happy Few". I just thought it was odd. 

We were talking about this over in the rewatch thread.  "Baby" was also skipped and probably some others.  They've done this on the first syndication of other seasons too, so the theory is that it's a rights or pricing issue regarding the most popular episodes.  Like The CW may block a few episodes for streaming for a year or Netflix gets exclusivity or something.

[SueB]

32 minutes ago, missbonnie said:

Does anyone know why TNT has dropped the season finale from last year from their playlist? Both times when they got to that point they started over with the pilot after "We Happy Few". I just thought it was odd. 

 

It occurred to me that maybe they are timing the end of the next 11 years to end on a certain date.  It takes 12 weeks to cover all the S1-11 episodes at 4 per day.  They can cycle 5 times and wind up at the first week of October, just before S13 starts.  Maybe that's their play?  IDK.

[catrox14]

Been watching some of my random fave eps and have thoughts.

Mystery Spot:

Dean died at least 100 times so he would have gone to Hell 100 times and was there for sure for 6 months at least per the Trickster. So theoretically Dean's soul was in Hell for at least 60 years that time and then another 40 years. 

Did the Trickster erase Dean's hellfire mamba during that 6 months or just made it that Dean never died so he never went to Hell until he did in NRftW. Or did the Trickster just resurrect Dean from Hell for Sam and erase Dean's memories? Did he reset everyone's timeline on that day and all the souls in Hell that would remember Dean being there?

No Rest for the Wicked: 

It's always bugged me how and when Lilith possessed Ruby. For some reason today it occurred to me that it most likely happened before Ruby showed up again at the fence when Dean saw the demon face. He'd never been able to see demon faces before so he wouldn't have known if it was Ruby or Lilith's true face in that particular moment. But then it's confusing because at the last moment Dean says it wasn't Ruby's demon face.  My new head!canon is that Lilith was cohabiting with Ruby and brought out Ruby's face to Dean the first time and then was screwing with Dean until the moment she set the Hellhounds on him and decided to show her true self.

[FlickChick]

I have no idea about the Trickster scenario - it could be anything including a created "Dean" character to live with Sam for those 90+ days while real Dean was in a sleep somewhere. After all, Archangel.

With Ruby/Lilith, I think Lilith let Ruby out of the devil's trap and sent her to Sam and Dean. Then, when Ruby and Sam separated upstairs to "look" in various bedrooms, she let Lilith in, getting ready for the midnight hour. That really sounds bad... Oh well, medicine. :-)

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Mystery Spot:

Dean died at least 100 times so he would have gone to Hell 100 times and was there for sure for 6 months at least per the Trickster. So theoretically Dean's soul was in Hell for at least 60 years that time and then another 40 years. 

Did the Trickster erase Dean's hellfire mamba during that 6 months or just made it that Dean never died so he never went to Hell until he did in NRftW. Or did the Trickster just resurrect Dean from Hell for Sam and erase Dean's memories? Did he reset everyone's timeline on that day and all the souls in Hell that would remember Dean being there?

My understanding was the Trickster reset the timeline where Dean didn't die in the first place. So, technically he did go to Hell, but it was all erased later for everyone other than Sam and the Trickster.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's always bugged me how and when Lilith possessed Ruby. For some reason today it occurred to me that it most likely happened before Ruby showed up again at the fence when Dean saw the demon face. He'd never been able to see demon faces before so he wouldn't have known if it was Ruby or Lilith's true face in that particular moment. But then it's confusing because at the last moment Dean says it wasn't Ruby's demon face.  My new head!canon is that Lilith was cohabiting with Ruby and brought out Ruby's face to Dean the first time and then was screwing with Dean until the moment she set the Hellhounds on him and decided to show her true self.

It's hard to say, but I always assumed Lilith hopped from the little girl and into Ruby--sending Ruby far, far away--when they separated so Dean could take the father downstairs and Sam and Ruby continued on to the bedroom. Dean just didn't notice the change until he had a moment to really look at Ruby once they got cornered in that room. 

[sarthaz]

Azazel was playing a really long game to spring Lilith and ultimately release Lucifer.  Was there a backup plan?  Because it sure seems to me that if Sam had followed orders and shot John in the heart, John probably doesn't go to Hell, Dean doesn't die, Sam doesn't die, Dean doesn't deal his soul and go to Hell, the Gates of Hell don't open, Lilith doesn't escape, seals don't break, Lucifer doesn't escape, Cass doesn't even get involved, Sam doesn't go to Hell, Heaven and Hell are probably stable so no need to get souls from Purgatory, no need to kill Alphas, Eve likely remains dormant, Leviathan don't escape, and all is mostly quiet on the Western front until Abaddon drops into the Winchesters' closet?  Do I have that about right?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Because it sure seems to me that if Sam had followed orders and shot John in the heart, John probably doesn't go to Hell, Dean doesn't die

You mean in the Season 1 Finale/ Season 2 Opener? That`s iffy, depends on how badly Dean was already hurt at that point. The crash could have still happened and we`d have the outcome of Dean possibly dying and now noone makes a deal for him? Sam does? Or if that doesn`t happen, then we still can easily get a Sam death and Dean making a deal. That scenario is so likely, I don`t believe it hinges on the outcome for John.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Azazel was playing a really long game to spring Lilith and ultimately release Lucifer.  Was there a backup plan?  Because it sure seems to me that if Sam had followed orders and shot John in the heart, John probably doesn't go to Hell, Dean doesn't die, Sam doesn't die, Dean doesn't deal his soul and go to Hell, the Gates of Hell don't open, Lilith doesn't escape, seals don't break, Lucifer doesn't escape, Cass doesn't even get involved, Sam doesn't go to Hell, Heaven and Hell are probably stable so no need to get souls from Purgatory, no need to kill Alphas, Eve likely remains dormant, Leviathan don't escape, and all is mostly quiet on the Western front until Abaddon drops into the Winchesters' closet?  Do I have that about right?

It's definitely one possibility.  If Sam had killed Azazel in season 1, the special child showdown wouldn't have taken place, so Sam wouldn't have died *at that point* and Dean gone to hell.  But there are a few things to think about:  Meg was still around (even if it took her till season 5 to show up again), so she could have taken over (or, conversely, killed Sam out of revenge, which would have started the whole thing up again because Dean probably would still have sold his soul, even with John's example first.  He did know about crossroads deals.)  Azazel may (as you said) have been playing a very long game, but he did have others on his team (such as Ruby) so even if Meg was temporarily out of the way, others might have stepped up.  Because another point to remember: 

The angels *wanted* the apocalypse.  They declared that it *had* to be Sam and Dean, so I'm pretty sure (with their double agents) they could have set up something else to get it kickstarted again; and they needed Lucifer to rise in order to start the battle.  

About the rest of it--Heaven and Hell were never going to be stable.  Hell had no leader at all after Azazel's death--thus all the confusion and infighting mentioned by Casey the demon in Sin City.  And Heaven still had Zack's sleeper cell working to raise Lucifer and the archangels pissed off about Daddy leaving. And without all the years of battling demons and working with Crowley, by the time Abaddon showed up, they would have had no defense against her.  

Edited January 4, 2017 by ahrtee

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Azazel was playing a really long game to spring Lilith and ultimately release Lucifer.  Was there a backup plan?  Because it sure seems to me that if Sam had followed orders and shot John in the heart, John probably doesn't go to Hell, Dean doesn't die, Sam doesn't die, Dean doesn't deal his soul and go to Hell, the Gates of Hell don't open, Lilith doesn't escape, seals don't break, Lucifer doesn't escape, Cass doesn't even get involved, Sam doesn't go to Hell, Heaven and Hell are probably stable so no need to get souls from Purgatory, no need to kill Alphas, Eve likely remains dormant, Leviathan don't escape, and all is mostly quiet on the Western front until Abaddon drops into the Winchesters' closet?  Do I have that about right?

But, you have to remember that, even if every villainous plot can be out-thought with a little logic and reason, logic and reasoned thinking do NOT belong here!! ;)

Seriously, Yellow Eyes wasn't really all that bright. I mean, Dean told him back before Sam was even born that he was the guy who would kill him, but he instead decides to monologue to Dean... .

Edited January 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[sarthaz]

37 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You mean in the Season 1 Finale/ Season 2 Opener? That`s iffy, depends on how badly Dean was already hurt at that point. The crash could have still happened and we`d have the outcome of Dean possibly dying and now noone makes a deal for him? Sam does? Or if that doesn`t happen, then we still can easily get a Sam death and Dean making a deal. That scenario is so likely, I don`t believe it hinges on the outcome for John.

I just assume getting rammed by the truck is a direct result of Azazel's escape.

32 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It's definitely one possibility.  If Sam had killed Azazel in season 1, the special child showdown wouldn't have taken place, so Sam wouldn't have died *at that point* and Dean gone to hell.  But there are a few things to think about:  Meg was still around (even if it took her till season 5 to show up again), so she could have taken over (or, conversely, killed Sam out of revenge, which would have started the whole thing up again because Dean probably would still have sold his soul, even with John's example first.  He did know about crossroads deals.)  Azazel may (as you said) have been playing a very long game, but he did have others on his team (such as Ruby) so even if Meg was temporarily out of the way, others might have stepped up.  Because another point to remember: 

The angels *wanted* the apocalypse.  They declared that it *had* to be Sam and Dean, so I'm pretty sure (with their double agents) they could have set up something else to get it kickstarted again; and they needed Lucifer to rise in order to start the battle.  

About the rest of it--Heaven and Hell were never going to be stable.  Hell had no leader at all after Azazel's death--thus all the confusion and infighting mentioned by Casey the demon in Sin City.  And Heaven still had Zack's sleeper cell working to raise Lucifer and the archangels pissed off about Daddy leaving. And without all the years of battling demons and working with Crowley, by the time Abaddon showed up, they would have had no defense against her.  

Well, yeah, you make some valid points. :) I guess it's possible that his other minions step up, but one would assume Tom and Meg are the big guns, and Tom's dead, and Meg's exorcised.  Without Azazel and his special children, who's going to open the Gate?  Because Ruby and Lilith come through the gate, and I'm guessing Meg does too, but I don't remember.  I guess Meg could claw her way out of Hell again and make it all happen, or maybe the angels just do it themselves, but I always felt the angels got on board because Azazel's plan was working.  What's another 500 years to Zachariah? :)  Maybe you're right, though.  Maybe Zach and Co. force the apocalypse no matter what.

[mertensia]

Oh, I can easily picture Zachariah just deciding to pitch Dean into Hell just to make him break the first seal just to get that done.  And frankly, I'm a little surprised he didn't. Frankly the angels letting Azazel do Azazel things was incredibly stupid. They lost the minute Azazel got all showboaty and pinned Mary to the ceiling. Had he just killed her with a heart attack and let them live in supernatural ignorance Sam would have been so much more malleable.

[SueB]

Rewatching my beloved 'The End' today on TNT, as well as 'The Monster At The End Of This Book', had me doing some retcon theorizing. I KNOW the show didn't make the episode with this in mind but I have fun with this ...feel free to skip. 

God (Chuck) in these two episodes.

- I had a bit of mental debate - did Chuck insert himself on purpose in the story be if so 'Why?'   And I think the answer is definitively 'yes'.  If he didn't want them aware of The Winchester Gospels, he could have interfered with the store clerk.  Heck, he could have BEEN the clerk.  I'm going to guess he set up the breadcrumbs and triggered the clerk to lead them to him.  So, why?   Well, it occurred to me that Liliath may have gone off script herself.  Maybe Chuck wanted to warn the boys OR get her back on plan.  But Dean and Cas were very creative in this episode.  And Chuck really did want them to succeed, so I'm going to lean in a different direction.  Maybe he wanted to remind Sam that drinking demon blood was crossing the line.  And his 'I'm sorry' was him realizing that Sam was committed to his confrontation with Lilith.  CLEARLY, he didn't feel he should flat out tell Sam to stop. Still very committed to both Free Will and testing Sam and Dean.  

- So did Zachariah put Chuck at the Camp or did Chuck just self insert?  Part of me is certain of t was all Zach, but I can also see it being a genuine future potential.  Cas and Future Dean were too realistic for Zach.  Zach was more stereotyped backstory in 'Its a Terriblr Life'.  So if Zach just set the parameters and let the AU play out, the. Chuck self inserted.   And he knew it was all going to reset so he just played aling to have a front row seat. Not positive on this one but both options still work IMO with S11 Chuck.  

Lucifer in 'The End' versus S12:

- I think between Sam potentially being his ideal vessel and his 'plan' working, I could see Luci being more calm and in control.  By S12, he'd had a major setback and became more unhinged.  Then being let out and abandoned again by Chuck , probably pushed him completely off his rocker. 

Edited January 25, 2017 by SueB

[Morrigan2575]

Hmm after the Chuck = God reveal I fanwanked that Chuck was Chuck in S4. The Chuck we knew was killed in 423 along with Castiel and, that's when God stepped in. I don't know if that actually works with everything we've seen in S11 but, that was my thought at the time. 

A rewatch of the Chuck, S4/5/11 episodes might be in order to see if there's a different explanation that works. Will need to Netflix one weekend.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Hmm after the Chuck = God reveal I fanwanked that Chuck was Chuck in S4. The Chuck we knew was killed in 423 along with Castiel and, that's when God stepped in. I don't know if that actually works with everything we've seen in S11 but, that was my thought at the time. 

A rewatch of the Chuck, S4/5/11 episodes might be in order to see if there's a different explanation that works. Will need to Netflix one weekend.

That is the only explanation for Chuck as God I can buy. If he was God in 4.18 then Fuck Guck. He allowed such cruelty. Given that Cas told Dean and Dean told Sam, God didn't want him to do things, for Guck to not more strongly make his case to Sam to stop, makes Guck the worst. IMO

[SueB]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That is the only explanation for Chuck as God I can buy. If he was God in 4.18 then Fuck Guck. He allowed such cruelty. Given that Cas told Dean and Dean told Sam, God didn't want him to do things, for Guck to not more strongly make his case to Sam to stop, makes Guck the worst. IMO

Free Will.  And it was a test. Personally, I think with the "single" test of the Apocalypse, Chuck was able to prove man's worth (Sam and Dean as his representatives) and although it took a while, help the Angels to re-find their way.  And, of course, the Angels are still a work in progress.  At least they picked back up their original mission (protect humans). But that whole "die with dignity" thing was a bit fatalistic. 

As for the lengths the Judeo Christian God tests man, read the Book of Job -- dude can be pretty harsh. "God and his shiny red apples" - Cas; shows the writers understand that "lore".

Edited January 25, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

Free Will.  And it was a test. Personally, I think with the "single" test of the Apocalypse, Chuck was able to prove man's worth (Sam and Dean as his representatives) and although it took a while, help the Angels to re-find their way.  And, of course, the Angels are still a work in progress.  At least they picked back up their original mission (protect humans). But that whole "die with dignity" thing was a bit fatalistic. 

As for the lengths the Judeo Christian God tests man, read the Book of Job -- dude can be pretty harsh.

I'm well aware of the concept.  Doesn't change my opinion. That's just one of the reasons I loathe Swan Song and why I have problems with the latter parts of S5. As a non-religious person I'll never be on board with it.

As to Chuck as God in show, there are far too many holes to adequately explain Chuck is God fron the get go. Morrigan has offered the best head!canon for me. YMMV etc

[MysteryGuest]

Yeah, I've recently watched both of those episodes, and it just reinforces my opinion that Chuck was simply Chuck until they decided later that they wanted him to be God.  If that weren't the case, they wouldn't have needed to spend nearly half of Don't Call Me Shurley explaining how Chuck was God all along.  Personally, I much preferred Chuck as Chuck.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I had a bit of mental debate - did Chuck insert himself on purpose in the story be if so 'Why?'   And I think the answer is definitively 'yes'.  If he didn't want them aware of The Winchester Gospels, he could have interfered with the store clerk.  Heck, he could have BEEN the clerk.  I'm going to guess he set up the breadcrumbs and triggered the clerk to lead them to him.  So, why?

I waver on when Chuck became God with almost every re-watch. Sometimes I think it's at the end of S4 and he takes over when Raphael smites Cass; Sometimes I'm certain it's not till the end of Swan Song because I just can't believe God had anything better to do than hang out at a Supernatural convention and what the hell was he doing dating Becky; And there are times I think he's God the whole time and putting on a very good show. Just depends on the angle I'm viewing it from, I guess?

As to the why? Well, I believe either there is free will or there isn't. Since God allows free will to exist, he can't jump in and take it away when he doesn't like what his creations do with it. So he can't directly interfere and tell people what to do or fix things if they made a choice he didn't like, but he can nudge and hope they make the right choice on their own.

I used an analogy in another thread recently, but I can't remember where; it went something like this: Basically, God was always in Sam and Dean's corner, but it wasn't his fight to win or lose so he couldn't throw in the towel or his own hat. Instead he patched 'em up and kept them on their feet so they could win the fight for themselves.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I used an analogy in another thread recently, but I can't remember where; it went something like this: Basically, God was always in Sam and Dean's corner, but it wasn't his fight to win or lose so he couldn't throw in the towel or his own hat. Instead he patched 'em up and kept them on their feet so they could win the fight for themselves.

Isn't that really intervening? Not letting them die? Rebuilding Cas?

[Demented Daisy]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Hmm after the Chuck = God reveal I fanwanked that Chuck was Chuck in S4. The Chuck we knew was killed in 423 along with Castiel and, that's when God stepped in. I don't know if that actually works with everything we've seen in S11 but, that was my thought at the time. 

 

Yep, I thought so at the time, too:

On 4/19/2016 at 4:09 PM, Demented Daisy said:

I think it's possible that Chuck was God in S5, but not necessarily in S4.  And not just Swan Song, but the entire season.

Is it possible that the archangel that smited the crap out of Cas was God appearing to Chuck?  Consider what Castiel trying to talk to Dean did; imagine if God did the same.  I think He could quite easily blow Castiel to smithereens, convince Chuck to be His vessel, then bring Cas back.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but I accept it as a possibility.

[SueB]

Interesting theories!

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Isn't that really intervening? Not letting them die? Rebuilding Cas?

Sure, but intervening in a way that didn't take away free will. For better worse, Sam made the choice to drink demon blood--despite all the warnings and his own reservations--it wasn't up to God to take those choices away. It wasn't like Sam was making a completely uninformed decision here. So, God could've washed his hands of Sam at that point and left him to be possessed by Lucifer, but by putting Sam on that plane God was giving Sam a chance to take responsibility and redeem himself for the choices he made. God wasn't stopping Sam from making a choice, but giving Sam a chance to make better choices.

Edited January 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Given that Cas told Dean and Dean told Sam, God didn't want him to do things, for Guck to not more strongly make his case to Sam to stop, makes Guck the worst. IMO

I agree with you. The "That's the way the story seems to be headed" is what does it for me as that isn't a subtle nudge in the right direction at all, in my opinion. Sam is seriously asking if he needs a life preserver and with that line Chuck/God is instead suggesting he can swim to shore by telling him what he wants to hear. Not only that, at least twice previously in the conversation, in my opinion, Chuck first pushes Sam in that direction. Here's the dialogue with my thoughts in bold. It goes without saying that this is all my opinion, of course. (Dialogue from Supernatural Wiki)

Sam: What choice have I got? If it helps me kill Lilith and stop the apocalypse –
Chuck: I thought that was Dean's job. That's what the angels say, right?
Sam: Dean’s not... he's not Dean lately. Ever since he got out of hell. He needs help.
Chuck: So you got to carry the weight? Not "sure you can help him, but is this really helping?" or even a suggestion that maybe letting Dean have a role could be good for Dean or any other number of subtle pushes to consider just helping. Instead a subtle suggestion in the other direction that maybe Dean can't carry any of the weight.
Sam: Well, he's looked out for me my whole life. I can't return the favor?
Chuck: Yeah, sure you can. I mean, if that's what this is. Here Chuck pulls back from the above suggestion, but still no mention of working with Dean or that Dean doesn't need Sam to take over... just wondering if that is why Sam is doing it.
Sam: What else would it be?
Chuck: I don't know. Maybe the demon blood makes you feel stronger? More in control? This is a step in the right direction, but still not very persuasive in that Sam does need to be strong in order to kill Lilith. Neither is being more in control necessarily a bad thing.
Sam: No. That's not true.
Chuck: I'm sorry, Sam. I know it's a terrible burden – feeling that it all rests on your shoulders. No "Are you sure?" here or anything like that, instead again a suggestion that despite what Chuck/God said above, maybe Sam has a reason to think it does rest on his shoulders. The second time in a short time period that Chuck mentions some version of things depending on Sam.
Sam: Does it? All rest on my shoulders? So Sam asks straight out for a life preserver, something to grab onto, to confirm or deny that things don't depend on him this time. And in my opinion Jared plays Sam here as vulnerable and genuinely asking - not someone who has already made up his mind. Sam's voice even hesitates.
Chuck: That seems to be where the story's headed. Instead of "I don't know, Sam," or even "I can't tell you that, Sam. Do you think it does?" Chuck encourages Sam again towards things depending on Sam, nudging him in that direction more overtly this time. In my opinion, this isn't letting Sam decide for himself as a "Do you think it does?" or an "I don't know" would. This is encouraging Sam towards believing that he needs to continue on the path he's heading down by agreeing that from what He's (supposedly) seen that indeed seems to be where this is all headed.

So yes, to me it would make God less of a huge asshat if it was Chuck at this time, because Chuck could potentially think that Sam did need to do this - i.e. kill Lilith to stop the apocalypse and that that's what the story looks like to him, so maybe encouragement is what Sam needs. Whereas God would know that killing Lilith would be a mistake, so encouraging Sam in any way that direction - especially by citing the "story" that's His story as inspiration - would just be a completely crappy thing to do.

So I definitely like you guys' theories about season 5... though that still doesn't quite explain Becky... but then again Chuck later on went on to have other girlfriends and even boyfriends, so... And Becky was a huge fan of God's word, so I'm sure He liked that.

Just because I can't help it: another theory or two?

• When Sam and Dean find Joshua, God finds out that that they're looking for him... really looking for him, and also that Zachariah has gone off the reservation (through Joshua). He later feels bad for dissing them entirely, so he "answers" Dean's and Castiel's prayers by taking over Chuck to keep a better eye on what's going on, including his wayward angels.
• After Lucifer calls up Death, Chuck was one of the people Lucifer has Death kill, because Lucifer's a jerk and he would want to take away God's prophet... so God takes over as Chuck.
• Something Zachariah did in "The End" caused Chuck to eventually get killed in that alternate timeline, and when things got snapped back to "normal," God had instead taken over as Chuck. But that one is much more iffy. (As would be the timeline somehow getting messed up by Anna and/or Raphael in "The Song Remains the Same.")

But I like @Morrigan2575's and @Demented Daisy's beginning of season 5 theories the best... Although God wouldn't necessarily have had to kill Castiel accidentally. It could've very well been Raphael or Michael. Both wanted Lucifer to rise and would want Castiel out of the way. Once Castiel was dead, it would be easy for God to slip into Chuck's place without anyone noticing, and he'd then be there at the right spot to put Castiel back together, put Sam and Dean on the plane, etc.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree with you. The "That's the way the story seems to be headed" is what does it for me as that isn't a subtle nudge in the right direction at all, in my opinion. Sam is seriously asking if he needs a life preserver and with that line Chuck/God is instead suggesting he can swim to shore by telling him what he wants to hear.

I'm now I'm thinking of the parable about the guy trapped in his house during a flood who prayed to God to save him; turning down many offers to be taken to safety while waiting for God reach down from heaven and whisk him to safety. After he drowns, he goes to heaven and asks God, why God didn't save him. God's answer: I sent you a pick-up truck, a boat and a helicopter and you refused all of them. What else could I possibly do for you?

Sam had already had life preservers in the form of angels and a brother and his own instincts telling him what he was doing wasn't going to end well; and he ignored them all. What else could Chuck possibly do for Sam at that point?

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sure, but intervening in a way that didn't take away free will. For better worse, Sam made the choice to drink demon blood--despite all the warnings and his own reservations--it wasn't up to God to take those choices away. It wasn't like Sam was making a completely uninformed decision here.

Actually Sam was making a fairly uninformed decision, in my opinion. The angels were actually lying about trying to stop the seals from being broken and about not wanting Sam to use his powers. Since they actually did want Sam to use his powers. The actual purpose of giving that message was to put Sam and Dean at odds - which is why they had Dean deliver the "message." There wasn't even any evidence that God was warning Sam not to use his powers, because actually all evidence pointed to God being AWOL at that point and the angels were just making that up to put Sam and Dean on different sides.

The angels were also lying about Dean being the one to stop the apocalypse, because no, that wasn't their plan at all. Dean was actually just supposed to sit and watch Lucifer be raised (i.e. let the apocalypse start) and then supposedly Michael would (sort of) "stop" it. The angels even created situations where Sam felt he needed to use his powers by doing nothing to stop the seals from breaking themselves while demanding Sam and Dean do it, threatening the lives of innocent people, and in the case of Alastair, directly putting Dean in danger so that Sam felt he needed to save Dean/kill Alastair when in reality, that shouldn't have been true at all (Michael or Raphael could've squashed Alastair like a bug if they wanted to). The angels wouldn't even heal Dean after Alastair almost killed him, keeping the pressure on Sam that Dean and he could be in danger if Sam didn't stay strong enough to kill demons himself... since now demons were around that not even their knife could kill. And gee, I wonder how it could be that Alastair managed to slip out of hell and none of the archangels stopped him?

You see my point - the false information was everywhere. Sam wasn't "informed" of anything real. The only thing he did seem informed about was that drinking the demon blood would likely mean bad things for him, but because he was lead to believe that it was the only way, he was willing to make that sacrifice. But the information leading him to that conclusion was mostly lies and deception.

And yes, Sam had reservations and did ultimately choose to drink blood again on his own, but even at the end, he had reservations - and the angels still rigged things by changing Dean's voice message.

Edited to add:

Quote

Sam had already had life preservers in the form of angels...

Actually the angels - as I outlined above - were the opposite of life preservers in my opinion. They were actually anvils. And God didn't give Sam anything at that point in my opinion, since He didn't save Dean from hell (so He didn't give Sam Dean at all), He was entirely absent while His angel anvils were rigging the game, and He had nothing to do with Sam's instincts. If anything, God's angels made Sam question his instincts to trust them by being complete dicks and threatening to kill entire towns of people unless the seals were stopped some other way... which the best way Sam knew was to keep using his powers.

So did Sam make wrong choices? Yup, he sure did. But was he the only one? Hell, no. He just ended up being the one to take most of the blame. Castiel for example made several bad choices - getting Anna arrested, letting Sam out of the panic room, helping keep Dean prisoner in the green room - but he got put back together by God and was even given an upgrade. Sam got detoxed, but he also got blamed for Lucifer.

And if Sam had stopped using his powers as he had been "told", seals would've broken, lots of innocent people would've died, including Dean, and the angels likely would've ended up manipulating him some other way into killing Lilith... likely after Dean was killed (and by waiting to bring Dean back until after Sam went nuts and killed Lilith in revenge).

Quote

What else could Chuck possibly do for Sam at that point?

So many things. Taking care of his rogue angels - which were a problem He created - would've helped tremendously. Even asking one of those alternative questions would've been another easy one.

P.S. I'm worried this sounded a bit yelly. If so, sorry about that. I didn't mean it to... season 4 sometimes drives me crazy. Soooo much manipulation of Dean and Sam this season... sooo much depression and ugliness.

Edited January 25, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

It occurs to me to wonder if Chuck's kicking out Becky is when he becomes God's vessel.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

You see my point - the false information was everywhere. Sam wasn't "informed" of anything real. The only thing he did seem informed about was that drinking the demon blood would likely mean bad things for him, but because he was lead to believe that it was the only way, he was willing to make that sacrifice. But the information leading him to that conclusion was mostly lies and deception.

And yes, Sam had reservations and did ultimately choose to drink blood again on his own, but even at the end, he had reservations - and the angels still rigged things by changing Dean's voice message.

I think you've made this argument before, and I'm not saying it's entirely wrong; but my problem with it is that you're making excuses for Sam's actions on the basis of hindsight.

All of Sam's decisions were made with the information *at hand*. That's the only way decisions *can* be made--judgment based on the available information (which might include gut feelings and personal interpretations besides facts).  But IIRC, they never even implied that Sam thought the angels were lying, just that he disagreed with them.   And that they were dicks.   Even Anna never accused the angels of lying (well, not until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt); and even learning that Uriel was "working against them" implied that the majority of angels *were* good, and not manipulating them towards the Apocalypse.  So IMO, no one--including the angels who *weren't* in on the plan--as Zach said, "the grunts on the ground"-- knew what the upper echelons had planned.  

Sam was the one who didn't want to follow what the angels told him.  Whether it turned out to be good or bad, whether they were manipulating him or not, it was still his choice, based on what he thought and what he'd been told.  And who told him the only way to stop the Apocalypse was to drink demon blood?   A demon.  While angels, Dean, Bobby and a prophet all told him no.  That was *his* choice.  It doesn't matter that the angels were lying to him, because actually, as it turned out, *both* sides were.  

I don't want to start the wars again, and I'm definitely not saying that the Apocalypse wouldn't have happened if Sam had listened to Dean or the angels.  I'm pretty damn sure they would have found another way to make it happen, because, yes, both sides wanted it; though it might have taken another century or two to get everything in place again.   And did others make bad decisions?  Hell, yes.  But remember, Sam not only got detoxed, but was "granted absolution," got to heaven (several times) and was pretty much praised to high heavens for jumping into the pit--much more reward/redemption than anyone else.  IMO, the only reason the Lucifer blaming was ever brought up again after about  ep 5.3 was to deliberately ramp up bitterness and to make the brothers fight again.  There was never any sign that Dean believed it, before or after the writers had him say it, any more than most people believe Sam really meant everything in his Purge speech.  

And just for the record--I'm also not sure it really was the angels who changed Dean's voice message back in 4.22.  Having rewatched the other day, I was struck by Ruby's smirk while she watched Sam listen to the message.  It seemed pretty obvious she knew it was something to her advantage, not an apology that would make Sam rethink.  

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

It doesn't matter that the angels were lying to him, because actually, as it turned out, *both* sides were.  

I'm not sure that I understand why it doesn't make a difference that the angels were lying. Yes, Sam made the choice to drink demon blood, because it was a way to actually have tools to stop everything that was happening. And yes, Ruby was the one who told him the only way for Sam to get strong enough was to drink demon blood... this just happened to turn out to be true. When Sam drank demon blood, he could kill demons. Part of the angels lying was their manipulation. If the angels hadn't been lying, and being dicks - like threatening to kill an entire town - Sam would have had less reason to use his  powers at all. If the angels actually did stop the seals from breaking, Sam and Dean wouldn't need the means to do it themselves, and there would be no apocalypse to start no matter what Sam did. If the angels didn't allow demons like Alastair to run amok, Sam wouldn't have to worry about killing them. I agree that this doesn't excuse Sam's bad decisions, but in my opinion, it makes his bad decisions much more understandable - to me anyway.

Now if the angels really were trying to stop the seals from breaking and were doing their best to make sure Sam and Dean had support in stopping the apocalypse and Sam still drank demon blood against their wishes and raised Lucifer, then I would agree he deserved the most of the blame here.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Sam was the one who didn't want to follow what the angels told him.

Actually Sam was the one who started out pro-angel, and was so for quite a while until they acted like dicks and pretty much made it impossible for he and Dean to succeed without Sam resorting to his powers. And then condemned Sam when he did use those powers to do what needed to be done. I'm pretty sure that after Uriel called humans "Mud Monkeys," made it clear that he resented his and Castiel's assignment to help Dean, and expressed his glee at potentially killing a town, Sam had pretty good reason to question the angels' motives.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Even Anna never accused the angels of lying (well, not until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt); and even learning that Uriel was "working against them" implied that the majority of angels *were* good, and not manipulating them towards the Apocalypse.  So IMO, no one--including the angels who *weren't* in on the plan--as Zach said, "the grunts on the ground"-- knew what the upper echelons had planned.

True, but it was very interesting to me that Castiel didn't really tell Dean the truth either. He implied that Uriel was dealt with when he knew very well that Uriel wasn't the only angel who wanted Lucifer raised. He knew that the angels in their garrison who weren't killed were in agreement with Uriel's plans. Dean might've had more of an idea that some of the angels weren't what they appeared to be if he knew the truth, but Castiel chose to keep that information from him. By the time he did decide to warn Dean, it was much too late. And then after his reconditioning, he made sure Anna wasn't around to tell the truth either. If Dean had known any of this, he might not have pledged his allegiance to the angels like he did. He was just lucky that wasn't really binding.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But remember, Sam not only got detoxed, but was "granted absolution," got to heaven (several times) and was pretty much praised to high heavens for jumping into the pit--much more reward/redemption than anyone else.  IMO, the only reason the Lucifer blaming was ever brought up again after about  ep 5.3 was to deliberately ramp up bitterness and to make the brothers fight again.  There was never any sign that Dean believed it, before or after the writers had him say it, any more than most people believe Sam really meant everything in his Purge speech.

I think there are differences in opinion on some of this, but the differences are understandable based on how people interpret it. Dean was also granted absolution, too likely something very few who made deals got. I'm not saying Dean didn't deserve it after everything he went through, but he did get it. And Sam paid afterwards for his absolution also with many years in the cage with Lucifer.

As for Lucifer blaming, that happened often in the show, and not just to make the brothers fight.  That time in season 9, for example, was just gratuitous and unnecessary, especially considering we never saw that hunter again.

I also didn't see Sam getting much more reward/redemption than anyone else. I thought Castiel did pretty well in that regard, too, getting to save not only Sam to redeem himself, but to defeat Metatron as well. And Dean got plenty of wins and plenty of praise, too, when God turned guardianship of the world over to Dean... and Sam, too, but it was mostly Dean. God had even earlier absolved Dean of his involvement in the mark of Cain incident and being a demon, since he made it clear to Metatron - and us the viewers - that Sam was to blame for what happened with Amara. So in my opinion, plenty of absolution, praise, and redemption for everyone.

I'm not going to comment on the last point, since that has the potential to lead to trouble.

So, I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on some of this.

Edited January 25, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure that I understand why it doesn't make a difference that the angels were lying. Yes, Sam made the choice to drink demon blood, because it was a way to actually have tools to stop everything that was happening. And yes, Ruby was the one who told him the only way for Sam to get strong enough was to drink demon blood... this just happened to turn out to be true. When Sam drank demon blood, he could kill demons. Part of the angels lying was their manipulation. If the angels hadn't been lying, and being dicks - like threatening to kill an entire town - Sam would have had less reason to use his  powers at all. If the angels actually did stop the seals from breaking, Sam and Dean wouldn't need the means to do it themselves, and there would be no apocalypse to start no matter what Sam did. If the angels didn't allow demons like Alastair to run amok, Sam wouldn't have to worry about killing them. I agree that this doesn't excuse Sam's bad decisions, but in my opinion, it makes his bad decisions much more understandable - to me anyway.

Well, remember that Sam started drinking blood long before he even knew there *were* angels, while Dean was still in hell.  In his defense, he was alone and lost and Ruby was there to tell him everything he wanted to hear.  But he still started then, not after meeting the angels.  And he didn't want to stop, even afterwards when Dean and the angels told him not to, at a time when he had no reason to doubt any of them.  

On your other point here, Sam had only seen *TWO* angels by the time he decided they were all dicks--Cas and Uriel.  Uriel was the one who was so obviously anti-human, while Cas didn't either attack or defend...he was being the "good son" by following what he thought were dad's orders, but even by the end of Its the Great Pumpkin we knew he was having doubts; and I'm pretty sure Dean told Sam, if for no other reason than to help with Sam's disillusionment with Uriel.  So...one "bad apple" (as Dean called him) vs. one "otherworldly" creature who (at that point) was unknown but seemed more sympathetic.  There was no reason to believe all angels were bad--that was Dean's point with his baseball analogy.  It seemed to me that Sam was more willing to believe bad things about angels precisely because he had believed in them so long--reality didn't match what he *wanted* them to be, and I think he was especially hurt when they rejected/insulted *him*--by refusing to shake his hand, and by Cas's calling him, "the boy with demon blood."  So he was predisposed not to like/trust angels, even though there was no proof for most of the season.  

It was also the demon blood that made him feel more important/more impatient.  Yes, the angels were slow to stop the seals--not necessarily ineffective--it was pointed out that there were hundreds of seals and Lilith only had to break 66--and they didn't know which ones she was going after.  But even so, they told the Winchesters that *Dean* was the one who was supposed to stop it.  Sam was the one who decided that Dean was too weak to do it and so he would, in whatever way he thought best.  Again, I'm chalking that up to demon blood; but the main part of that was as Chuck said--because it made him feel more in control and he didn't want to give that up.  Of course he had good intentions, and he thought he was doing the right thing.  It wouldn't have been tragic if he was just a megalomaniac out for glory, whether caused by demon blood or not.  

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam had pretty good reason to question the angels' motives.

No, actually, he had good reason to question their methods, not their motives.  Until it was proven otherwise, in the *very last episode* of the season,  the motive was the same:  stop the seals from breaking.  What It's the Great Pumpkin showed was that angels weren't fluffy protectors of humans but, as Cas pointed out in the beginning, warriors fighting for the Bigger Picture (and with no hearts.)  

 

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

True, but it was very interesting to me that Castiel didn't really tell Dean the truth either. He implied that Uriel was dealt with when he knew very well that Uriel wasn't the only angel who wanted Lucifer raised. He knew that the angels in their garrison who weren't killed were in agreement with Uriel's plans. Dean might've had more of an idea that some of the angels weren't what they appeared to be if he knew the truth, but Castiel chose to keep that information from him. By the time he did decide to warn Dean, it was much too late. And then after his reconditioning, he made sure Anna wasn't around to tell the truth either. If Dean had known any of this, he might not have pledged his allegiance to the angels like he did. He was just lucky that wasn't really binding.

The interesting thing to me was that season 4 was really about Cas's evolution (kind of like Dean) from the party line, unquestioning good son who followed orders on blind faith to learning to trust his own judgment and make his own decisions.  I'm assuming that Cas would have felt disloyal telling mere humans about the problems going on in heaven.  And until he and Dean became close, there was no reason for him to.  The same reason he turned Anna in--because he was following protocol.  He didn't do the reconditioning, especially not in order to make sure she wasn't around.  He was still following orders, and was very confused about the conflicts he was feeling--Anna was the one who pointed out that he was feeling emotions, especially doubt.  He just wasn't prepared to deal with them.  But by that time he'd already called the others in to deal with her.  

About the "absolution"...yes, there are many varying opinions.  I'm not saying Dean didn't also get absolution, just that it appeared that his absolution (that is, being saved from hell) was conditional:  do his job or they would throw him back in the pit.  And he try to follow orders, which is which is why Sam wasn't surprised that Dean had got to heaven in Dark Side of the Moon, but he hadn't expected to be there himself.  But I'm not going point by point about who got what, and which one was more important.  Chuck absolved them all, proved it by resurrecting them time after time and giving them more chances to make it right.  Dean didn't believe he deserved to be saved; Sam believed he still  needed to prove himself more.  Cas still feels guilty to this day for his various misdeeds.  So absolution didn't actually take for any of them.  

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not going to comment on the last point, since that has the potential to lead to trouble.

I don't understand your point on this.  (I assume it was about the voice mail?) I was just pointing out an interpretation.  I don't think it was ever proved one way or the other, though people certainly have very definite opinions.  I actually assumed myself that it was angels until I really looked at Ruby's face this time.   It seems both angels and demons were on the same side for that, so maybe they were working together...maybe the angels *allowed* Dean to leave the message, knowing that the demons would change it?   And that's why they blocked Dean's phone *after* the first message, to make sure he didn't talk to Sam directly?

And I agree that all the Lucifer blaming post-Swan Song was gratuitous.  I think it was the writers baiting the fans.  Just not sure why they felt it was necessary, though.  

[catrox14]

IMO, if Chuck was the Omnipotent God when he sat next to Sam and said "that's where the story is heading" then to me that is almost a dereliction of his duty as the Father of Humanity. Guck knew Lucifer would be released if Lilith was killed. He knew the threat that posed to humanity. He knew what the angels and demond were doing. Why would he be so milquetoast when talking to Sam, his child, who he put in the situation to begin with by not stopping his own son Lucifer from making demons?

Sam's grief over Dean's death and trip to Hell messed him up greatly and the demon blood fed into his occasional arrogance leading to hubris that separated him from Dean and Bobby. I don't know if he was seeking confirmation that his path was correct or to be moved to a different choice but IMO he was looking to Chuck for guidance, given everything Chuck wrote had happened even when they tried to change the course, the universe course corrected back to the book (if that was Guck then he knowingly was pushing Sam to kill Lilith,IMO).I think in that situation with Chuck, for the first time Sam was genuinely doubting his own choices and behavior. 

Chuck's answer makes more sense as Chuck the prophet/author who is inferring where the story is headed only because he doesn't know the next chapter yet. But it doesn't make sense as a vague guiding hand of God if he really didn't want Lucifer to escape.

To me, the story makes sense if God was MIA and in his chicken shit hiding place bar and detached himself from all humanity and did not know what was happening because he didn't care, until his son, Lucifer was released and it compelled him to come out of his hidey hole long enough to do what to resurrect Cas but not stop Lucifer from binding Death who he forced to kill humans before their time.

Bah, I should just stop because this is veering into bitterness & UO land.

 

ETA: I'm with Dean in that Chuck bailed on humanity and is trying to justify it.

Edited January 25, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, remember that Sam started drinking blood long before he even knew there *were* angels, while Dean was still in hell.  In his defense, he was alone and lost and Ruby was there to tell him everything he wanted to hear.  But he still started then, not after meeting the angels.

All valid points. But...

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And he didn't want to stop, even afterwards when Dean and the angels told him not to, at a time when he had no reason to doubt any of them.  

Actually Sam did want to stop and did for quite a while - from "Metamorphosis" through "Chris Angel...": 8 episodes - even stating explicitly that he was completely done with it and that he was stopping because he understood that it was "playing with fire" and that it was "his choice" to stop.  One of the things that bugged me most about season 4 was that the writers gave this character development to Sam only to undo it so lamely - i.e. with an explanation that, for me, anyway, made little sense - just because they needed Sam to start up again/be on the opposing side from Dean. I've watched "Chris Angel..." a few times, and I still don't understand why Sam changed his mind or how "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" was somehow supposed to explain why Sam would want to "play with fire" again and go back on his own convictions... and defy the angels, risking potential smiting. Usually when Sam sets his mind on something - and he seemed to be pretty sure in "Metamorphosis" - he sticks with it like a dog with a bone. Yet here he was changing his mind midstream after a fairly routine case that had nothing to do with the apocalypse. Completely lame, in my opinion.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

It seemed to me that Sam was more willing to believe bad things about angels precisely because he had believed in them so long--reality didn't match what he *wanted* them to be, and I think he was especially hurt when they rejected/insulted *him*--by refusing to shake his hand, and by Cas's calling him, "the boy with demon blood."  So he was predisposed not to like/trust angels, even though there was no proof for most of the season.

That might be true, but I think it was more than just the angels not living up to his expectations. By the time Sam met the angels, he'd been off demon blood for a while, and had not used his powers, just as the angels had asked (Castiel even acknowledges this), but when Sam suggests working together to kill the witch since they knew who it was, the angels wouldn't even consider it, Uriel was hostile, and then they suggested killing the town. Later in that episode after Sam killed Samhain - since the angels wouldn't - Uriel told him he'd smite him as soon as he got the chance. Sam had little reason to trust them being on their side after that, in my opinion. Or at least as you point out below - to at least not seriously question their methods.

Also as to your point about Castiel being more "sympathetic," I think that too was mostly by degree. Castiel did threaten to throw Dean back into hell if he didn't do what he was told. He didn't get nicer until a bit later.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

No, actually, he had good reason to question their methods, not their motives.  Until it was proven otherwise, in the *very last episode* of the season,  the motive was the same:  stop the seals from breaking.

Good point. You're correct about methods vs motives.

Except for Uriel - his motives were shown to not be pure before the last episode. He - and his followers - just happened to be working towards a similar goal independently of the rest of the angels. Which considering that shouldn't have even been allowed and/or possible should've thrown up a hint for Dean and Sam that something about the situation wasn't right at all. And Sam knew that demons weren't killing angels at that point and that at least some of what they had been being told by Uriel - i.e. that it was demons who were killing the angels as they supposedly fought to stop seals from breaking - was most likely wrong information. (Which kind of informs "Monster At the End..." - for me anyway - since that was after Sam found this out and so had reason to suspect things were more murky than they thought. And Ruby was likely feeding into that as well - maybe giving Sam inside information on that.) I had originally thought that Sam had figured that out - about Uriel - but I remembered incorrectly on that. Only Castiel and Anna knew for sure.

Castiel too should've suspected something, because he figured out - and as Uriel confirmed - at that point only angels could kill other angels. Even Alastair couldn't kill Castiel, only send him back to heaven, so all of the angels dying Castiel had complained to Dean about was actually angel civil war. So Castiel knew by then that much more than trying to stop seals from breaking was going on. Unfortunately Castiel neglected to tell Dean that - even obfuscated a little - and then waited waaaay too long to act on that information. Really bad decision on his part.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm assuming that Cas would have felt disloyal telling mere humans about the problems going on in heaven.  And until he and Dean became close, there was no reason for him to.

Well accept that he thought that Dean was supposed to stop it, and the fact that angels were killing each other in a civil war rather than being killed trying to stop seals from breaking was a very important fact for Dean to know if Dean was supposed to be stopping what was happening. Strategically it was a really bad decision on Cas' part.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

The same reason he turned Anna in--because he was following protocol.  He didn't do the reconditioning, especially not in order to make sure she wasn't around.  He was still following orders, and was very confused about the conflicts he was feeling--Anna was the one who pointed out that he was feeling emotions, especially doubt.  He just wasn't prepared to deal with them.  But by that time he'd already called the others in to deal with her.

No, it was Castiel I was referring to. He was the one who had been briefly "reconditioned." (It happened in "The Rapture"). It's one of the reasons I think he let Sam out and let Anna be taken. And then later let Dean be taken. Castiel wasn't there long like Anna, but my guess is that it was long enough for him to "get with the program" again and be a good, little soldier. He who hesitates gets caught and reconditioned in Cas' case.

@catrox14, I couldn't agree with you more on all of that. That was the exact conclusion I came to (above somewhere) as well. (Hee - If I'm recalling correctly, I don't think that we've ever agreed so completely on something before.)

Edited January 25, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And just for the record--I'm also not sure it really was the angels who changed Dean's voice message back in 4.22.  Having rewatched the other day, I was struck by Ruby's smirk while she watched Sam listen to the message.  It seemed pretty obvious she knew it was something to her advantage, not an apology that would make Sam rethink.  

I remember thinking at the time I watched it (and I've only watched it once) that it was Ruby who changed the voicemail - exactly because of that smirk.  

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I remember thinking at the time I watched it (and I've only watched it once) that it was Ruby who changed the voicemail - exactly because of that smirk.  

I thought it was confirmed in S5 that Zachariah changed the VM. I think Ruby was smirking because she knew she had Sam in her hands not that she knew about the VM

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I don't understand your point on this.  (I assume it was about the voice mail?) I was just pointing out an interpretation.  

Oops, meant to address this above. (The current discussion reminded me.)

No, I have no problem with your interpretation - though I was pretty sure myself that it was Zachariah. I was referring to the Dean and the starting of the apocalypse and the "The Purge" stuff (the last sentence in my quoted part). I hate that episode and it's one where discussion easily devolves into badness.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I thought it was confirmed in S5 that Zachariah changed the VM. I think Ruby was smirking because she knew she had Sam in her hands not that she knew about the VM

It could be.  I honestly don't remember that.  All I was saying was at the time I watched that particular episode, I thought Ruby had changed the voice mail.  I thought her smirk conveyed that she knew more than just that she had Sam where she wanted him, like she knew what the changed vm actually said.  But, as I said, I've only watched it though once so I may be forgetting something.  That's just what sticks with me.