MysteryGuest October 6, 2016 Share October 6, 2016 (edited) It's interesting how we all can see things differently. I took the whole Benny storyline at face value. Yes, he was a monster, but he had also spent God knows how long in Purgatory and saw an opportunity to get out and maybe do things right this time. He and Dean had formed a bond there, right or wrong. Had Dean not been forced to abandon him due to Sam's wishes, he'd probably have noticed sooner that Benny was having a rough time of it. What we don't know is what he would have done about it. But I do not believe that Benny had started killing again. He might have gone there eventually, but I think he was still "on the wagon" when Dean called him for help. I also think he was a bit desperate at that point, and realized he wasn't going to make it, so going back to Purgatory seemed like the best idea. Had he opted to ride back out with Sam, I think both Dean and Sam would have offered whatever help they could to keep him on the straight and narrow. Frankly, I thought Sam's reaction to Benny was out of character for him. He would have been cautious, but Sam was always the one to give monsters the benefit of the doubt more so than Dean. This was just another example of character assassination as a plot device. Sam suffers from that a lot where the SPN writers are concerned. Edited October 6, 2016 by MysteryGuest 7 Link to comment
JunebugWA October 7, 2016 Share October 7, 2016 I'm re-watching all seasons to get ready for next week. Throughout seasons 8 & 9 with the angel civil wars and how Kevin did not have an archangel to protect him because Gabriel and Raphael were dead and Michael was in the cage with Lucifer, my thought was "why did so many angels die rescuing Sam from the cage (per Naomi) but they did not want to rescue Michael?" Was Sam more important than Michael? No explanation given. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot October 7, 2016 Share October 7, 2016 12 minutes ago, JunebugWA said: I'm re-watching all seasons to get ready for next week. Throughout seasons 8 & 9 with the angel civil wars and how Kevin did not have an archangel to protect him because Gabriel and Raphael were dead and Michael was in the cage with Lucifer, my thought was "why did so many angels die rescuing Sam from the cage (per Naomi) but they did not want to rescue Michael?" Was Sam more important than Michael? No explanation given. Hmmm...wait, angels didn't die rescuing Sam from the cage. Castiel rescued Sam by himself. Naomi told Cass a bunch of angels died saving Cass from Purgatory, though. 1 Link to comment
JunebugWA October 7, 2016 Share October 7, 2016 You are right -- everything blurred when you binge-watched. Again, is Cass more important than Michael? because no one seems to care about rescuing Michael from the cage. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot October 7, 2016 Share October 7, 2016 (edited) I still wonder why Naomi bothered to save Cass from Purgatory, but I assume it was far easier to get Cass out of Purgatory than trying to break into the Cage in Hell and get one archangel out while leaving the other there. I'm not sure Naomi would want Michael out of the cage anyway. She wouldn't get to be in charge anymore, ya know. Plus, it's not like Micheal was such a saint. He ruled heaven through subterfuge and fear, so I can imagine there's not too many who care all that much about him. But, Raphael and his followers were certainly concerned with getting Michael out of the cage. That's the entire reason Cass and Raphael were warring in S6. Getting Michael out of the cage would mean putting the apocalypse, that Team Free Will derailed, back on the rails and Cass was trying to stop that. BTW, it's funny to me that a bunch of angels died saving Cass from Purgatory after the mess they made of Purgatory and reaper lore in Taxi Driver. Edited October 7, 2016 by DittyDotDot 1 Link to comment
mertensia October 7, 2016 Share October 7, 2016 On 10/5/2016 at 3:29 PM, auntvi said: Yes!! At the beginning of season 10, the writing tells us that Crowley, the f***ing King of Hell, is basically a good guy & Dean's best friend. And in the end Dean's trust in Benny was shown to be well-founded. Benny even went back to save Sam. For someone who tends to see everything in black & white, Dean has been friends with a couple really dark people, and hasn't yet been shown to be wrong. No, they're showing us Crowley, the master manipulator. He conned and coaxed and practically brainwashed Dean into getting the Mark et alia. Where Crowley failed was in not just locking DemonDean up and periodically letting him kill troublesome demons when his bloodlust got too strong. 1 Link to comment
shang yiet October 8, 2016 Share October 8, 2016 Quote To me, it's interesting that Sam should even be in the position to have to apologize for Benny at all Precisely so I'm not that bothered that Sam didn't crawl on his knees and hand over a Hallmark card and flowers for Benny and Gadreel. He shouldn't have to in the first place. Plus the show had Sam apologise for things he didn't have to apologise for -like Stanford. Did Dean apologise for the deal in s3, trusting the angels, Amy and Gadreel? And I agree with Awesom that it goes both ways. If Sam arguing with Dean shows he wants Dean to be a submissive lackey, then when Dean insists on his way, he just wants Sam to be a submissive lackey. Link to comment
MysteryGuest October 8, 2016 Share October 8, 2016 Both brothers have made equally poor decisions throughout the series. I don't think either one of them is blameless for all of the shit that they've had to deal with, but what keeps me watching is that their motivation was pure, even if not very well thought out. Whether it was making that first deal to save Sam, or inadvertently releasing the Darkness to save Dean, I think both brothers act emotionally first, and think about the consequences second. Obviously, they've managed to create some huge messes for themselves by doing this, but hey...that's the show. I'm drawn to their story because it's been fairly consistent throughout...two brothers who love and need each other, who will sacrifice anything to keep the other safe. At least for the most part. There have been aberrations where one of them has done something completely out of character (a good portion of season 8 for Sam that I blame solely on the writers!!), but they've been rare, thankfully. As long as that theme continues, I'll be good. Link to comment
catrox14 October 8, 2016 Share October 8, 2016 (edited) Re: Apologies For me, an apology means you are truly sorry for the hurt and suffering you caused someone else and that you'll make amends if you can but if you can't make amends, then the apology is the promise to not do the same thing again to the best of your ability. So what would be the point of the boys apologizing for saving each others' life, when it's clear they will always make that choice because that's what a lot of the audience wants i.e. 'Long live Brodependency, damn the consequences" . I think Dean doesn't apologize for Gadreel because he isn't fooling himself because he knows he would do it again because he thinks it's the right thing to do. I thought for a hot minute, they should apologize to the world for saving each other at the expense of the world, but again it would be an empty apology when we know they'll do it every time, no matter what they pretend to each other and the world. Since those horses have already left the barn and died, all they can do is make amends by doing more saving people and hunting things. What I don't understand is why the "Long live the brodependency" faction gets angry when the show has them make those choices. I mean you can't really have it both ways. Crap, I think I just defended the writers. WTF? Edited October 8, 2016 by catrox14 more thinky thoughts 3 Link to comment
MysteryGuest October 8, 2016 Share October 8, 2016 There really is no show if one of them decides to just let fate have it's way. They've been calling bullshit on fate since the beginning. If there's a deal to be made, or a lie to be told, or a relationship to exploit, they're going to do it, if it means saving the other. That's pretty much the whole premise of the show. Yes, they fight monsters and save people whenever they can, but mainly they save each other. 1 Link to comment
MysteryGuest October 8, 2016 Share October 8, 2016 I've been watching a couple of episodes of season 11 on Netflix this afternoon, and I have to say that the writing for that season was definitely not up to par. I enjoyed many of the episodes well enough at the time, but there have been a few times today when the line of dialogue was so bad it took me right out of the scene. I should have made a list! For example, the dialogue in Just My Imagination is actually cringe-worthy. I had no problem with the premise of the episode, or issues with whether it painted Dean in a bad light, I just thought the writing was really off. So many of the lines that Jensen was forced to say had me almost embarrassed for him. I think Jensen has some pretty good comedic chops, and in seasons past, with the right line and his delivery, we've had some comedy gold. But in this episode, so many of his one-liners just made me groan. I wondered if maybe Jensen was just having an off episode, but honestly, I don't see a lot of those lines working no matter who delivered them. Maybe they just tried too hard to go for the joke, but it just didn't work. There were other instances too, but I can't remember them specifically. I think I've watched 3 or 4 episodes, randomly. When I go back and watch earlier seasons, the writing just seems more fluid somehow. There was always humor, but aside from the meta episodes, most of the humor was pretty organic...just a little line here or there that really worked. Now they seem to telegraph that "here's a funny line coming up...", and invariably it falls flat. I can see why the cast felt they needed to intervene or at least band together with the writers in those last few episodes of the season. I have to assume the actors can recognize really bad writing when they see it, just like we can. With all of that being said, maybe it's a good thing that the vast majority of the writers have moved on to other shows. Maybe with some fresh blood, we'll get back to some of the quality writing we had in earlier seasons. I'm going to cross my fingers and hope for that to happen. I'm happy that the show is sticking around for a while, but I really want the writing to improve. 3 Link to comment
FlickChick October 9, 2016 Share October 9, 2016 (edited) Unfortunately, the Nepotism Duo is still on hand to write all myth-arc episodes, so don't get your hopes up too high. :( That said, I'm hoping that the new writers at least watched the series to get a handle on the characters before they write stories for them. If they have no idea who Sam is, who Dean is, etc., then they could be writing them out of character. I think that Robbie Thompson studied the characters before he wrote for them, and as a result, his episodes rarely depicted the boys out of character. I know not everyone agrees, but I will miss him. :( Edited October 9, 2016 by FlickChick because Robbie wrote more than one... 8 Link to comment
pixelcat October 11, 2016 Share October 11, 2016 Mom watch update #2 Over the weekend I watched 2/3 of season 6 and almost all of season 7 with her. I think she'll be able to get partway into season 8 by Thursday, but she doesn't know yet if she's going to watch in real time, or continue playing catch-up and then binge whichever ones she has saved on DVR. She also said she is making note of which were skipped, and wants to go back and see them at some point. On 9/21/2016 at 9:08 AM, Boopsahoy said: You had her skip Yellow Fever and Monster Movie???? Oh no!! I like "Yellow Fever", but I am of the unpopular opinion that I don't like "Monster Movie" at all. Since neither were super important to the overall mytharc of the season, I had her skip them. But as I said above, she does have plans to revisit all the skipped ones at some point. On 9/21/2016 at 10:24 AM, rue721 said: I think it's DEFINITELY worth your mom watching Hollywood Babylon, even just to make sense of that short character arc of Dean's (and because those are all wonderful episodes). Another unpopular opinion, I'm not a fan of "Hollywood Babylon", BUT I'm pretty sure Mom would like this one so I'm going to make sure she watches it with me! Skipped for season 5: "Fallen Idols", "I Believe the Children Are Our Future" (I know Jesse relates to the apocalypse, but since he disappears and is never heard from again, I didn't think it was that important), "The Curious Case of Dean Winchester", "Sam, Interrupted", "Swap Meat", "99 Problems" (yes I know the ending is important, but the rest of the episode didn't make it worthwhile to get to that point, I just explained to her what happened) Season 5 comments: Dean needs to quit moping around and being angry/sad with Sam and the whole blood thing "The End" (one of my top episodes) was only so-so for her. I think she got too confused as to what was going on at first, she said sometimes it takes her half the episode (not just Supernatural, but any TV) to figure out what's happening, and because she spends so much time thinking about it, the episode is less enjoyable. If I had been there to explain it right away, I'm sure it would've helped. She liked "Swan Song" She HATED the Trickster/Gabriel. She somehow completely missed the fact in "Changing Channels" that the Trickster WAS Gabriel, and didn't know that until the Gods episode when he's called out. She kept asking me, "He's not coming back is he? Because I can't stand him." I was unable to get a clear reason as to why. Zachariah getting stabbed was a particular highlight of the season for her Pestilence was disgusting (she texted me "Slime sneezes yuck yuck yuck" while she was watching it) She really enjoyed "Dark Side of the Moon" and "Changing Channels" Skipped for season 6: "You Can't Handle the Truth", "All Dogs Go to Heaven", "Clap Your Hands If You Believe..." (gave her a choice on this one, said she'd probably like it but it doesn't relate much to the overall season, so we skipped. Definitely going to watch this with her), "Unforgiven", "Mannequin 3: The Reckoning", "My Heart Will Go On" Season 6 comments: From a text: "Yikes gramps back, Sam back, new cousins???" She really enjoyed "Two and a Half Men" with the baby shifter, I got several texts about it. Highlight I think was the name Bobby John While watching "The Third Man", she was texting me about blood boils and locusts, and somehow sent a locust one to her sister, who was then all kinds of confused wanting to know if Mom was being attacked by locusts. "Weekend at Bobby's" she was sad there wasn't more Sam & Dean (although she does like Bobby). It's funny, the last rewatch I did of this episode, I was halfway through until I realized "Hey, I've barely seen the Winchesters and I didn't even notice" because I like Bobby too (and Rufus, he's too funny: "Good, you're home, you have to help me bury a body.") "Live Free or Twihard" I knew she'd like, she's a big Twilight fan She's a big Death fan, loves it when he's on. She was sad when I told him that he ends up dying, but that some fans don't believe he is actually dead due to the circumstances so she can hold out hope! "Like a Virgin" I convinced her that the statue at Dr. Visyak's house is the same one as outside Hotel Rouge in DC. The hotel has several identical Venus statues, and back in 2007 one got stolen (and has never been found). I always find it funny that the exact same statue then shows up in this episode years later! I did look up some pics online, and there are a bunch of "modest Venus" statue models, but this one seems to be unique. Not saying that this IS the stolen statue, just an odd random coincidence.... OR IS IT?? (pics at the bottom to compare) She really liked "The French Mistake" and "Frontierland" She likes Castiel and didn't understand why Dean wouldn't support him. I pointed out that Dean never gave Cas any viable options, and how do you stop an archangel anyway? The only one we've seen dead was killed by another archangel. Could they have opened up the cage again and shoved Rafael in, or would Lucifer/Michael escape? Even though it turned out badly, I still agree with her. I think if Dean had an actual plan, or even ideas that could've been worked into a plan, Castiel would've listened. "The Man Who Knew Too Much" she agreed with me that "Hell-remembering Sam" should look a lot more messed up than he does. She kept saying "He should have burns all over", where I was thinking more like skin falling off. When Castiel tells Sam he's the one that got him out of the cage, and Sam asks if he left his soul there on purpose, Mom picked up right away that Cas sidesteps the question. Skipped for season 7: "The Girl Next Door", "Defending Your Life", "Shut Up, Dr. Phil" (I did a quick summary of all three, focusing on Amy and the witch zapping Chet), "Season Seven, Time for a Wedding!" (I originally had this on the watch list, but since I was watching with her I chose to skip it), "Adventures in Babysitting" (did watch the beginning so she could see the Bobby fallout), "Time After Time", "The Slice Girls", "Repo Man", "Party on, Garth", "Of Grave Importance" (did a quick summary of Bobby and how they finally could see him). Season 7 comments: Oh no they're going to the same hospital as the Leviathans, and did Bobby burn up? (I told her that in the next episode that we skipped, Bobby gets them out of the hospital and they go hide out at a cabin he has) Right after they torch the first sister's bones in "The Mentalists", Mom asked "What about that other sister? I don't trust her at all." Good call Mom. She thought Dean was going to turn into a zombie because he ate the sandwich, I assured her he didn't eat enough for that to happen. She agrees with Dean on the licorice. I agree with Sam (disgusting candy, UGH) Enjoyed "Plucky's", and got the 24 reference (she watched it, I did not, but even I knew about the timecode thing). She also told me the reason it was one of my favorites is because there's a unicorn in it (probably true) Sometime in the middle of watching Season 7, she asked me "Who keeps track of all of this?" meaning the lore/storyline stuff. I replied "No one" and told her the shenanigans of the Grand Canyon story from Season 8. Even MY MOM knew they had never been to the Grand Canyon. She said, "Why didn't they go to Yellowstone? They could've had farty horses in Yellowstone. Changing that is like making Sam afraid of monkeys instead of clowns." "Out with the Old" she saw the resemblance between Joyce and Meryl Streep's character in "The Devil Wears Prada". Good to know I'm not the only one. She wanted to know what happened to the other agent, since we don't see Sam & Dean behead him. Said they probably did and put the head in the safe along with the other one, but then she wanted to know what happened to the bodies. I shrugged, said sometimes you just have to go with it. When Meg reappeared, Mom said the actress looked like she'd gained weight. I said no, it's just in her face, you can tell the rest of her is just as tiny as it ever was. When I first watched "The Born-Again Identity" earlier this year, I assumed Rachel Miner had been sick, and tried to look up some info but didn't find anything and gave up pretty quick. Mom is more tenacious, and found an article written by a Supernatural fan saying she was being treated for MS at the time, and implied that fans made fun of her about her appearance? I really hope anyone who did that felt ashamed and donated to MS research. "The Girl with the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo" (last one I watched with her before I left). She really likes Charlie. I got into an explanation of how some fans felt she was a Mary Sue (had to explain what that was as well), and went into the Oz episode from season 9, talking about how she suddenly knows about 1950s computers and other things, and Mom replied "So you can watch a show with Leviathans eating people and that's cool, but her knowing about this computer is where you draw the line?" As I described more about Oz, she said it sounded like a really fun episode, so I put it back on her watch list (also listed the ones in season 8 I was going to have her skip that have Charlie in it, if she wants to watch them instead). Personally, I really like Charlie's introduction here. Looking at Season 7, I probably had her skip more than I should've (like "Girl" and "Repo"), luckily I was there watching and could fill in the holes. For the curious: first is from Hotel Rouge (Streetview, sorry for the quality), second is from the episode. 4 Link to comment
DittyDotDot October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 (edited) I love your Mom Watch Updates, @pixelcat! I think you did really good with what to skip. There's a few I kinda did a "aww, she skipped...," but then I'd think about and realize it wasn't actually important. Plus, you're filling her in so she's not totally lost. 8 hours ago, pixelcat said: Pestilence was disgusting (she texted me "Slime sneezes yuck yuck yuck" while she was watching it) I have almost a similar reaction to Pestilence. In fact, when he appears at the end of--I can't remember the episode name right now--I can't fast forward through his introduction fast enough. It takes a lot to gross me out, but that always does. EWWW!! 8 hours ago, pixelcat said: She agrees with Dean on the licorice. I agree with Sam (disgusting candy, UGH) Okay, wait, are we talking about red vines or actual licorice? Because people call red vines licorice, but they're not. I love licorice!! See, I knew I liked your mom for good reason. ;) 8 hours ago, pixelcat said: When Meg reappeared, Mom said the actress looked like she'd gained weight. I said no, it's just in her face, you can tell the rest of her is just as tiny as it ever was. When I first watched "The Born-Again Identity" earlier this year, I assumed Rachel Miner had been sick, and tried to look up some info but didn't find anything and gave up pretty quick. Mom is more tenacious, and found an article written by a Supernatural fan saying she was being treated for MS at the time, and implied that fans made fun of her about her appearance? I really hope anyone who did that felt ashamed and donated to MS research. Yes, I remember Rachael Miner was ill, but I had no idea fans were making fun of her. That's just...well, we all know what it is. I do remember some discussion about her asking for her character to be killed off due to her health concerns back in S8, but I can't remember the details now. 8 hours ago, pixelcat said: "Out with the Old" she saw the resemblance between Joyce and Meryl Streep's character in "The Devil Wears Prada". Good to know I'm not the only one. She wanted to know what happened to the other agent, since we don't see Sam & Dean behead him. Said they probably did and put the head in the safe along with the other one, but then she wanted to know what happened to the bodies. I shrugged, said sometimes you just have to go with it. You can tell her that with Chet earlier in the season, Bobby gave the head to Jodi to drop into the drink somewhere and buried the body separately in concrete. Maybe that's what they did with the other agent too? See, easy peasy! ;) Edited October 12, 2016 by DittyDotDot 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 41 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: She wanted to know what happened to the other agent, since we don't see Sam & Dean behead him. I thought they let George go, because he was helpful and he convinced them there wasn't supposed to be killing (that Joyce was just impatient?)? Also - less likely to attract attention than if the area was left leviathan-less. George could cover, stall etc, until Sam and Dean got out of the area unscathed with perhaps Dick Roman none the wiser that they were ever there? They probably took Joyce with them though, since they told George "no" on eating her. Guess it was left vague as to what happened. 9 hours ago, pixelcat said: Looking at Season 7, I probably had her skip more than I should've (like "Girl" and "Repo"), luckily I was there watching and could fill in the holes. If it were me, I'd include "Time After Time..." also, even if it isn't relevant to the plot arc, just because I think it's a good episode. I would suggest - if you are not watching via DVD - to find the missing end scene, though (the extra scene included in DVD), because the episode ends rather abruptly and the end scene is rather brotherly. It was easily found on YouTube the last I knew. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said: I thought they let George go, because he was helpful and he convinced them there wasn't supposed to be killing (that Joyce was just impatient?)? Also - less likely to attract attention than if the area was left leviathan-less. George could cover, stall etc, until Sam and Dean got out of the area unscathed with perhaps Dick Roman none the wiser that they were ever there? They probably took Joyce with them though, since they told George "no" on eating her. Guess it was left vague as to what happened. You know, now I can't actually remember. I was sure George was all, "Let me eat her, I can't wait to find out what she tastes like." And the boys just looked at him, shook their head and raised the...was it a sword or a machete? But now...did they let him go? 1 Link to comment
SueB October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 Nah. George got beheaded. I think we saw TWO boxes going into the safe... Implying two heads. Plus the guys were shaking their heads "no". Link to comment
AwesomO4000 October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 Interesting @SueB. I generally assumed they didn't... mostly because one of the questions Sam asked was "You gonna keep killing people who don't sign on the dotted line?" As if he was considering letting George go... and then George gave them all the information and assured him that killing wasn't part of the plan... Maybe Dean decided to do the deed anyway so Sam didn't have to (George did save Sam. Link to comment
DittyDotDot October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 8 minutes ago, SueB said: Nah. George got beheaded. I think we saw TWO boxes going into the safe... Implying two heads. Plus the guys were shaking their heads "no". That's what I thought, but @AwesomO4000 made a compelling argument. But, really, George wasn't a friendly monster. He helped kill his boss, but he would've been chowin' down on someone before they reached the city limits. 2 Link to comment
pixelcat October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: If it were me, I'd include "Time After Time..." also, even if it isn't relevant to the plot arc, just because I think it's a good episode. Awww you know, I didn't even remember this one until yesterday when I was going through Season 7 episodes again. If I had, I would've definitely watched this with her, I think she'd really like it, plus it's a favorite of mine. How can you go wrong with both Logan and Krycek in the same episode? I watched it again yesterday after I discovered I'd skipped it, just because. This will be on the absolute must go back and watch with her list. 12 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Okay, wait, are we talking about red vines or actual licorice? Because people call red vines licorice, but they're not. I love licorice!! See, I knew I liked your mom for good reason. ;) Mom prefers the red, but she likes both. I can't stand either! 11 hours ago, SueB said: Nah. George got beheaded. I think we saw TWO boxes going into the safe... Implying two heads. Plus the guys were shaking their heads "no". If it had been me, I would've let George eat Joyce, then behead him. As he put it, one less monster to worry about... A few other random thoughts from Mom I forgot to include: Why would Dean stay with Lisa and Ben? Mom thought Lisa was more like a good friend, than someone he was in love with. I said that I always thought it was more for Ben than Lisa (see letter in "Appointment in Samarra") but Mom didn't get that feeling either. I remember she asked me, "How much longer is Dean staying with them?" while she was watching the baby shifter episode. Season 7 Sam hair = disgusting. She said it looked greasy and sometimes like a wig. Wonder what she'll think of Season 8, especially the first episode (watched that last night too, I think the 80s were calling) She didn't buy the whole "make Lisa & Ben forget about me" part. She immediately asked "what about all those other demons that know about them?" Told her I agreed with that, just because you make them forget about Dean, doesn't mean that CROWLEY forgets about them. The last episode of Season 6, I gave her a quick overview of what was going on to make it easier to watch. She was immediately suspicious of Sam's bartender, thinking she was bad and/or a demon, until I told her otherwise. (I also spotted "Castle Storage" in the background as Sam was running into the bar for the first time) She laughed and laughed during "Slash Fiction" when Dean was lip syncing to "All Out Of Love" and Sam gives him serious side-eyes Random thought of mine, speaking of Season 6 finale. Rewatching it made me realize we do have precedent of bad-ass Sam (thinking back to the discussion on the "Red Meat" episode thread); he not only puts his pieces back together, he gets up, drives out to wherever Dean & Bobby are, manages to get the drop on Castiel and stab him in the back. Granted, he wasn't gushing blood the whole time. Edited October 12, 2016 by pixelcat Forgot the song 1 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, pixelcat said: Mom thought Lisa was more like a good friend, than someone he was in love with. In that case, I can't wait to hear what your mom says about the whole Sam and Angry Lady thing! Edited October 12, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey grammar 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot October 12, 2016 Share October 12, 2016 (edited) Oh yeah, she'll like Time After Time. 21 hours ago, pixelcat said: She likes Castiel and didn't understand why Dean wouldn't support him. I pointed out that Dean never gave Cas any viable options, and how do you stop an archangel anyway? The only one we've seen dead was killed by another archangel. Could they have opened up the cage again and shoved Rafael in, or would Lucifer/Michael escape? Even though it turned out badly, I still agree with her. I think if Dean had an actual plan, or even ideas that could've been worked into a plan, Castiel would've listened. I think Dean sees Cass is trying to do the right thing, but he's going about it entirely wrong. Dean's own experience at this is screaming to him, this isn't going to end well. But, I do get why Dean feels he can't trust Cass right then, he just found out Cass has been lying to him and using him for months; how do you trust that? Dean had already given Cass the benefit of the doubt once and, well, fool Dean once, shame on him; fool him twice... . And, it's not like Cass was really giving Dean a reason to trust him either. Between telling him to stand down after Lisa and Ben were nabbed and breaking Sam's wall...it's really too bad Cass didn't just lay it all out for Dean because Cass had a plan to double-cross Crowley--he was neither wicked nor stupid--but Cass just doesn't understand why they don't understand and neither seem to have the ability to see the other clearly right then. The whole thing is really just two people not communicating. 1 hour ago, pixelcat said: Why would Dean stay with Lisa and Ben? Mom thought Lisa was more like a good friend, than someone he was in love with. I said that I always thought it was more for Ben than Lisa (see letter in "Appointment in Samarra") but Mom didn't get that feeling either. I remember she asked me, "How much longer is Dean staying with them?" while she was watching the baby shifter episode. I think Dean stayed with Lisa and Ben because he felt it was his responsibility to keep them safe since he feels he's now made them vulnerable. I too never thought Dean loved Lisa, but I do think he cared about her and Ben. As I generally say, I think Dean loved the idea of Lisa and Ben more than the reality of them. They represent home and family to him, which, IMO, is what Dean has been trying recreate in some fashion since the day it was ripped away from him when his mom toasted on the ceiling. 1 hour ago, pixelcat said: Random thought of mine, speaking of Season 6 finale. Rewatching it made me realize we do have precedent of bad-ass Sam (thinking back to the discussion on the "Red Meat" episode thread); he not only puts his pieces back together, he gets up, drives out to wherever Dean & Bobby are, manages to get the drop on Castiel and stab him in the back. Granted, he wasn't gushing blood the whole time. Man, I wish I had the healing powers of these two guys... . ;) Edited October 12, 2016 by DittyDotDot 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 (edited) Brought over from the "Keep Calm and Carry On" episode thread: On 10/18/2016 at 4:02 PM, Aeryn13 said: Normally I`m very cynical about that stuff because whenever Sam gets put under a supernatural honesty spell or gets angry enough, we get his very unflattering perspective on Dean and whenever he wants to convince Dean of something words of praise come out. The show has made it very hard for me to believe the latter because of that dichotomy. I actually thought about this a lot, and even considered – especially in reference to season 8 – that it might be the case that Sam sometimes overstates things to maybe get his way, and then I thought, “but what does that mean, and does it even make a difference?” And after thinking about it, I decided no, because on this show, the writers often have Dean doing very similar stuff,* but there is no real question of Dean’s loyalty or love for Sam, so for me, Sam gets the same benefit of the doubt. Also, at least for me, there are plenty of genuine moments where Sam has nothing to gain, but still expresses “words of praise” or affection for Dean. Like at the end of “What Is…” or when he was talking about how much he wished Dean was there to help in “All Hell…, pt1,” the hug in ”Mystery Spot,” or the end of “Season 7, Time for a Wedding,” or when he talks to Charlie in “The Book of the Damned.” Just how Sam puts his faith in Dean when they hunt together – and that he wouldn’t want to hunt without Dean – says to me that Sam respects and trusts Dean - I certainly wouldn't put that kind of faith in someoe that I didn't trust or think was worthy of it - so I don’t know. Sure sometimes Sam says some unflattering things about Dean, but that goes both ways. In “Point of No Return” Dean said some pretty unflattering things about Sam, including that Sam was self-righteous and was definitely going to say “yes” to Lucifer… that Dean couldn’t trust Sam to be strong enough and Dean was pretty convincing in that belief… but by the end of the episode Dean is saying he has faith in Sam again, they’ll do it together… so am I not supposed to believe Dean there? Or at the end of season 10 when Dean says that it should be Sam dead and not Charlie – granted Dean was under the influence at that time, but still – does that mean that deep down this is how Dean really feels? Ironically, Dean says this to exactly the Sam he’s generally expressed that he’s wanted. A Sam who wants to hunt – check. A Sam who wants to hunt with Dean – check. Even a Sam who would put Dean ahead of everything else, because Dean seemed pretty upset when Sam said that Sam wouldn’t do the same thing – check. And by the end of the season, Dean is risking it all for Sam by killing Death. And Sam is declaring it good that he’s gotten Dean back – again, nothing for Sam to gain from saying that. And Sam is supposed to go through all of that, risk the world for a brother he doesn’t care about or respect? Somehow I just don’t see that. I guess I just see enough moments from both Sam and Dean that contradict the occasional awful thing said to one another. They live a stressful, tough life. I don’t expect them to always say the right thing. Sometimes they say the totally wrong thing or the meanest thing ever, but that doesn’t mean – to me anyway – that that is always how they feel. Or even mostly how they feel. And I give both of them the benefit of the doubt. * Dean’s speech at the end of season 8 is a good example. Sam often gets criticized for supposedly not apologizing enough to Dean there and feeling insecure, but in my opinion, Sam had good reason to feel insecure when it came to Dean. Earlier in the episode, Dean is saying some fairly unflattering things about Sam. First he’s bringing up all the stuff Sam’s ever done wrong – and some stuff Sam wasn’t even responsible for – that Dean’s supposedly forgiven him for in the past that Sam could “confess” to. Considering that’s not even what Sam was asking for – I’m pretty sure Sam knows what he has to feel guilty about, Dean. It was the ritual he was asking about – that was fairly digging, but then later Dean is saying to Castiel “if anyone needs chaperoning while doing the heavy lifting, it’s Sam.” (Well actually I would beg to differ and say that it’s Castiel who needs the chaperoning, but okay). So now we have Dean – under no influence at all – thinking and saying that Sam still has a bunch of stuff he should feel guilty about and that Sam is a screw up. Yet at the end of the episode, I’m supposed to believe Dean thinks that he needs Sam to get things done? How much of Dean’s subsequent speech was real and how much was manipulation just to get Sam to stop the final trial and not die? I guess it depends on how you look at it. Edited October 20, 2016 by AwesomO4000 Because "clam" and "calm" are two different things, and oh by the way mmmm clams. (Steamed and with melted butter, not many things yummier.) 5 Link to comment
Aeryn13 October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 Admittedly, for me a good dose of it is an acting problem. And that can`t really be fixed. Don`t get me wrong, the writing often doesn`t help. I found Sam`s dialogue in 8.22 to be atrociously bad. He might have started with "my greatest sin is letting you down" but that turned quickly into "I feel bad because YOU made me feel bad". So letting down Dean per se wasn`t the problem. If Dean had swallowed it like a better doormat, everything would have been a-okay. It was the sheer nerve he had in feeling bad and hurt about being let down and showing it. Yeesh, if I read that in a book, I would want the character to materialize so I could throw the fucking book at them. It was outwardly not phrased like it so to be doubly manipulative but that was to me the gist of the words. So maybe, I would want to throw the book at the author. And book Mary Sues can be even worse than film Mary Sues because some actors can migitate what is on the page a true disaster. If "Merlin" only existed in book form and not Colin Morgan-form, oh boy. But Dean`s dialogue overall is often equally as bad. If I had to read it in a book as well, I`d feel the same unsympathetic way. And he does have unsympathetic scenes, Jensen can`t or won`t save everything. And yes, both Dean and Sam also have sympathetic scenes. But whenever Sam makes a Dean-denigrating speech under the influence or not, there is more than enough haughtiness in it for me to believe it. When he makes the praising speeches - and they have the added hurdle of not being born out in the writing either, like saying Dean is a great hunter and a genius and going out of their way to show him as incompetent and stupid in the same episodes and the next ones after - he can`t sell them to me. It`s just like "I`m the least of you" in Season 5. My main reaction to that was: ROFL. In all fairness, I`m not sure any actor would have much luck making me actually believe that this was the character`s true feeling in the context of what came before and after. Not if the next sentence is volunteering themselves as the Chosen One of the century. Characters who feel so down in the dumps often make such sacrifical ploys, true, but not in plans than hinge on them pulling off a godlike feat. Because the point of feeling low is not believing you can manage something like this. That was such a ridiculous moment, I couldn`t believe my ears. After nearly 12 years now, the acting styles are set. What has not been working for me before, or increasingly less so over the years, will not do so now. They can write those speeches and moments till the cows come home but it will not really get anything out of me beyond: "uh-uh". 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 I guess it helps that I have no problem with Jared's acting style and find most of his affectionate scenes with Dean to be genuine for me. The "Swan Song" one I didn't really, I agree. And it was a stupid line to begin with. But the end of "What Is..." for example, I found to be entirely genuine, along with most of season 7 - excepting that awful trial episode thing that was just terrible. "Point of No Return" for me, too felt genuine also. His hug at the end of "Mystery Spot" was probably one of my most favorite moments of the entire series. The look on Sam's face, just the relief and emotion at getting Dean back. As for season 8, I actually bought most of Sam's speech in the last episode as I hinted at above. I really do think Sam had a beef more than he was blaming Dean for making him feel bad*. And as I said, for me, he had somewhat of a legitimate point - especially in terms of Castiel who while yes has sacrificed for them at times, has also done a huge bit of damage, too... now granted mostly to Sam, but since Sam was having a breakdown, I'll give him some leeway for jumping to conclusions - and in this case correct conclusions since Castiel was acting squirrelly - again. (The last time Sam thought Cas was acting squirrelly in season 6 and questioned it, he also turned out to be right. But it turned out to be even worse than they thought and Sam ended up with a broken mind and several months at least of hallucinations and almost died... so yeah I can see why Sam might wonder why Dean would trust Cas' judgment over his (Sam's).). As for the other speech in question, I waffle on that one, but I have little desire to go back and look. I hate season 8. I hate what Carver did to Sam's character while bothering little to explain it or fix it, and showing no - for me - character progression to get where he put Sam (and for me the worst arc in the entire show - the Amelia arc). The "fix" ended up being having Sam "learning a lesson" and giving an apology over two seasons later - which to his credit, Jared pulled off - in my opinion anyway. I am glad that Sam is back to Sam again for the most part, but I hated Carver's "journey" to get him there, and I don't credit Sam's current incarnation to him either. I actually hope Carver doesn't return... and that's weird for me to say since he wrote one of my favorite episodes ever - and a good Sam episode for me too. * And as for feeling bad, Dean spent most of season 5 angry at Sam for choosing Ruby's judgement over his (Dean's). I think I'll give Sam this one time of questioning why Dean wouldn't choose his judgement over Cas'. But I realize that miles vary on that one. 4 Link to comment
rue721 October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 Brought from the 11.2 Mamma Mia episode thread: 12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Hee, @rue721. Perhaps I should have emphasized a word or two there... My meaning of that statement was less: I mean Sam as a handyman (and making enough money to live on that way?) and more: I mean Sam as a handyman (and making enough money to live on that way?), because if it was Dean, for example, then sure, absolutely... but we're talking about Sam here, and the show wanted me to believe he could actually fix various types of mechanical things competently enough to make money rather than create annoyed and complaining tenants? Me = not buying it. Now Sam being a groundskeeper*, general laborer, construction? Then sure I'd buy any of those things easily** but a handyman, fixing multiple mechanical, potentially electrical things... nope, I'm not buying it. Heh. * This one especially. Hubby and I once asked a neighbor who they had taking care of their yard and had the company guy come over to take a look at our yard and give an estimate to see if we wanted to use them also. Needless to say, we should've known things probably weren't going to happen when the yard guy pulled into our driveway in a Hummer. And after learning the monthly estimate for mowing our small lawn and doing a little edging and such... let's just say that hubby decided mowing the lawn himself didn't sound so bad anymore. Hee. ** And also have a little imagination, Show. Just because mechanical stuff is Dean's thing doesn't mean Sam has to do something similar, especially something he has no training in and hasn't been shown to have much natural talent in before at all. Why not something different? Give Sam some kind of talent or interest of his own, maybe. Why couldn't we see Sam enjoying working with plants or trees? Or building things with his hands? Hell, he could've been a dog walker or a pet sitter. Sam loves dogs. Any of those things I would believe. As an aside, Hubby and I have a class teaching insect identification and such to pest management guys... If you're willing to work and potentially get a little dirty at times, pest management is a very good way to make a living. Even with only a high school education, a technician can make around $35,000 a year or so or more (on average, it's closer to $40,000 in our area). After two years experience and getting a license, he or she can own their own company and potentially make even more. Many companies are willing to hire part time and such, too - as with mothers who only want to work during their kids' school day for example. And those willing to do related work such as wildlife pest management - and that takes a special breed as it's even trickier and potentially dangerous - can make even more. So definitely, there are jobs like this to be had, for sure. Sam as a handyman though... for me nope, nope, nope. Heh. I agree that Sam just isn't an engineer, and I don't know why the show decided he was going to fix up the Impala on his own and then get a job as a handyman, considering he has none of the necessary skills. Honestly, Sam would have lots of other job options, though. He's got a good education and he's personable, so imo he could easily go white collar or do something public-facing if he wanted. I know that someone like him could get a job in just about any restaurant in a heartbeat, and if you're waiting tables or bartending in a major city, you can take home $1000+ a week pretty easily (at a more upscale place or a busy club, anyway). Anyway, Sam doesn't really have a trade or a specific skillset, but at the same time, he's got enough obvious value as an employee (bright, physically strong, trustworthy, personable, etc) that I do think that it's at least pretty realistic that he got snapped up by an employer right away when he showed up in town without a job (I mean, when he showed up at the motel and got hired on there). Even though I can't really see him as a handyman per se, I could believe someone like him stumbling into a job very easily like that. Same for Dean, though. I think he'd be really good at running his own business, and he's got enough niche knowledge w/r/t cars that he could gets something lucrative going pretty easily. I'm thinking something like rebuilding cars or building custom cars to order, and/or sourcing and reselling car parts. Either of those would involve lots of travel and could be done mostly through the internet, so they'd fit into his life. Tbh, I really do wish the show would have him running some kind of side business just because I think that would be interesting, and imo it would be in-character. He just seems like he has that kind of hustle, and like he would enjoy the shoptalk and schmoozing and being on the constant lookout for opportunities. And it would be a good way to get more interesting cars besides just Baby onto the show, and to organically bring in more characters/locales, too. Imo it might open up the world of the show a little more. Also, the reason I think that Sam being the property manager/handyman for that motel was more legit financially than Dean working construction while living at Lisa's is because Sam was also living on-site and seemed pretty frugal otherwise (going on picnics with his girlfriend, etc), whereas Lisa's lifestyle was too lavish and Dean's paycheck seemed too inconsequential to him/them for me to really buy it. Here I go again, but Lisa's beautiful house (and ability to move suddenly), how Dean just casually told her to take Ben out for a meal and a movie -- that kind of thing was weird imo. Tbh, I think that generally, the show's treatment of money is a little more realistic when it comes to Sam than Dean. Even though that's maybe counter-intuitive, because Dean is the one who tends to focus more on the day-to-day, practical stuff? I mean, whenever Sam has gone off on his own for any length of time, where he's getting his money from is explained pretty explicitly (like he gets a job, and then we see him working that job onscreen, for example). His lifestyle also tends to be more or less in keeping with how much money he would be expected to have. Like, when he's working at the motel, he's living at the motel, and eating/drinking at home with Amelia, and has fun by doing things like hanging out with her or going on a picnic. When he's a college kid, he's living with Jess in a fairly normal looking college apartment and goes to a fairly normal looking college bar to "party" with friends, and iIrc they tell us flat out that scholarships are how he's paying his way. When he's on the road by himself in S1, he's crashing at a bus station with Meg. When he's on his own a little later on, he gets a job as a busser and hangs with another girl who works at the restaurant. Obviously everything is a little fancier and nicer than it would actually be irl, but in a "this is the TV version" kind of way, not in a "what are they even going for?!" kind of way, imo. Meanwhile, it's much sketchier with Dean imo. The show has more or less explained where his money comes from, by saying that he gambles and runs scams, but neither of those things seem like they're really a big part of his life -- he doesn't talk about them or seem to think about them all that much, and we rarely see him do them onscreen (especially not running scams for money). I know that there's the practical issue of the show not wanting him to come off like a scumbag, so they're going to limit his "bad behavior" on screen in general. But it goes beyond that imo, because it seems like Dean pretty much never even thinks of money or looks for opportunities to make some money (like by selling things, including his own skills) or keeps frugal habits in general. His lifestyle always tends to be unrealistically above his means imo. When he's on the road, he's eating out and drinking in bars all the time, which is really expensive. When he's with Lisa, they're living like money is no object. He worked construction when he was with her, but unlike Sam, his job wasn't really part of his storyline at all. IIrc, the only time we saw him at work it was for a split second during a montage, and we never met any of his coworkers or anything. I don't remember him working any other job for pay during the show, either? It also really bugs me how the show treats money in the flashbacks, because they have kid!Dean blow money pretty casually in them, and I just find that so unrealistic. Even more unrealistic than how they have him handle money in the present day. Not that they show kid!Dean blowing large amounts of money or spending it in ways that are so far out of the norm for a kid or doing anything *wrong* per se. It's more that I just don't believe that the character would be that casual with money if he had grown up needing to manage it on a daily basis for himself and his brother. I can believe that he would gamble, because there's at least a chance to make money when you gamble. But I can't really believe that he would just spend or waste money thoughtlessly/needlessly. I just can't really believe stuff like Dean throwing out food because Sam doesn't want it (instead of eating it himself or at least saving it), or Dean spending hours playing arcade games (instead of trying to befriend someone with a SEGA or even stealing some other kid's or something), or Dean dropping Sam off in a Chuck-E-Cheese kind of place instead of making him stay somewhere/do something that would be free (like staying in the house or staying at a playground or hanging out with a friend's little brother/sister at their house, etc), or Dean having really no clue what to do if/when his money ran out. Honestly, I not only can't really believe that he'd make some of those choices, I can't really believe that they would even occur to him as options. For example, I would think that for a kid who has a finite amount of money and doesn't know for sure when his dad is going to return to give him more (or how much more he's going to get anyway), blowing even one roll of quarters playing arcade games or keeping his brother occupied playing arcade games would not be something he'd do lightly or regularly. Tbh I would think that even buying a bus ticket would not be something he'd do lightly or regularly. If anything, I would expect him and Sam to have a repertoire of fairly elaborate tricks/habits to avoid spending money, as well as contingency plans for what to do if they did run out of money (either in terms of running out of cash in their pockets while out and about or running out of cash altogether). Also, I would expect Dean to always have some kind of secret emergency stash(es) -- of money definitely, but also of food and/or necessities if possible. It just seems OOC to me that kid!Dean (or adult!Dean, for that matter) would treat money like he's assuming he'll always have more of it, when it seems like the set up in those flashbacks was that he had some cash and maybe a stocked pantry/fridge, and needed to make everything last until John got back (without necessarily knowing when that might be). That seems like the perfect kind of setup for making someone very frugal, tbh. Well, anyway -- sorry for the rant! I mean, money isn't a major part of the show (and shouldn't be), so it's not a huge deal either way. Personally, though, I like when the show is relatively realistic about money because imo it grounds the world of the show and the characters a bit more. Plus, it bugs me when the show sets up a scenario where XYZ behavior would be logical/normal and then doesn't actually have anyone behave in an XYZ way. It feels like the show lacking internal logic. And, the most relevant issue w/r/t all this is probably: I think it's a missed opportunity for the show to ignore the issue of money, because money (or the lack thereof) could be a pretty good, organic catalyst for Sam and Dean to do things or think up plans/schemes or meet people that they otherwise wouldn't, and because showing how they deal with money or think about it could be another way for the show to develop the characters. 3 Link to comment
pixelcat October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 Mom watch update #3 She's decided to keep going with catching up, rather than watch the new episodes. She thinks she'll get them all done this week, but I doubt it. By Sunday morning she was only 2 episodes into S10, so I'm thinking maybe next week she'll be ready. Either way she'll get at least 3 new episodes to watch back-to-back, which is how she prefers them anyway. Skipped for season 8: "Heartache", "Bitten", "Hunteri Heroici", "LARP and the Real Girl", "Man's Best Friend with Benefits", "Remember the Titans", "Freaks and Geeks", "Pac-Man Fever" (after she said she really liked Charlie, I told her that LARP and Pac-Man were Charlie-centric, should she choose to watch them. She opted to skip them for now while she's catching up but come back to them later) She loves the bunker. I guess she's glad that they finally have a place to call home (I'm sure the art deco look didn't hurt, I think my whole family is suckers for art deco which might explain why I live in an art deco building LOL) Crowley getting on her last nerve this season Enjoyed "the new Bobby" (Garth) from "Southern Comfort". This was the first time she'd seen Garth, as the other two episodes he was in I had her skip. Loved Aaron and the golem (as she referred to it, "the clay hulk") Loved meeting Grandpa Winchester. Disliked Naomi and Abaddon Liked Benny, and was sad when he sacrificed himself for Sam Most surprising of all, she has the very unpopular opinion of liking Amelia. She said unlike Dean & Lisa, you could tell Sam really liked her Skipped for season 9: "Slumber Party" (she did watch this one after I described the "Oz episode" to her, she thought it sounded like fun), "Dog Dean Afternoon", "Bad Boys", "Rock and a Hard Place", "Sharp Teeth", "The Purge", "#THINMAN", "Alex Annie Alexis Ann", "Bloodlines" I started watching with her from ep9 through the end of the season She liked Kevin and was sad when Gadreel killed him Somewhere in this season she decided she liked Crowley again due to the snarkiness While watching "First Born" she said "I want a t-shirt that says 'You're good, but I'm Crowley'" and I told her there already was one. She doesn't really wear t-shirts but I might look for one as a present :) In "Captives" she wanted to know why Kevin was using the door to leave the bunker, couldn't he just go through the door. I said probably, he and his mom aren't used to him yet being a ghost. This also got us into a conversation about what object we'd be attached to. Mom immediately said my cat for me, I told her can't be a living thing, but then remembered both the ghost in "Roadkill" and Timmy's mom in "Bad Boys" were both attached to people. Corrected it to say can't be an animal, we've never seen a ghost attach to an animal or possess one (that'd be a trick, Oh Heavenly Dog trying to punch a keyboard with a pencil in its mouth). Next guess was my pink blanket that I've had since I was 5 (which is correct, and hey don't judge). For my mom I was guessing jewelry of some sort, and she said it would be her turquoise and silver ring she's had since before I was born. I smacked my head because of course it would be that ring, she always has it no matter on a trip or at home, and she wears it a lot. Her future mother-in-law got it for her on a trip to New Mexico. My dad was a lot harder, I was thinking a watch but he just got a new one, soooo I don't know. When asked, he didn't really have an answer either (and he also guessed my cat for my LOL but he got Mom's ring right) She kept referring to Metatron as "that asshole" and "liar" Every time The First Blade was on screen she kept insisting all the teeth would've fallen out In "Mother's Little Helper" she wanted to know what happened to all the other soul factories the demon claimed were operating. Told her they never found any other reports of people acting out, so didn't know where they were. I think Sam even says this at the end of the episode "Meta Fiction" had the return of Gabriel which she was not happy with. Apparently she never liked him because he was always in the way, and I pointed out that he was the one who told them about the horsemen's rings. Didn't help though When Gavin shows up, she said that he looks different now that he's alive. I said it was a different actor, and she said "well that explains it". When Crowley leaves him in the field, she said "That's it? That's all he gets? Knows how to read, but no money, no phone, nothing?" I said yup. I wouldn't be surprised if he got hit by a car the first time he tried to cross a street We got to the last episode and had to go upstairs for dinner. Before we could go, Mom said "I have to hear MY SONG" so we played through THE ROAD SO FAR for "Do You Believe in Miracles?" When we came back, we started the episode back up at the beginning so she could hear the song again. When Dean opened his eyes and they were black, she said "Oh no" in a disgusted voice. She did not want the Dean as a demon storyline Skipped for season 10: "Paper Moon", "Ask Jeeves" (plan on watching this with her), "Hibbing 911" (told her to watch this if she had some extra time), "There's No Place Like Home", "About a Boy", "Halt & Catch Fire" (best intro to the title card ever), "The Things They Carried", "Paint it Black", "Angel Heart" I had her watch "Fan Fiction" first before going into the beginning of the season, I wanted to watch it with her and didn't think we'd get through them all to get to it. The funniest part was when Dean is outside working on the car, Mom started singing the song that was playing ("Sundown" by Gordon Lightfoot). We then had to pause for 10 min while she looked up who sang the song, then she had to play me a YouTube video of it, then we had to find out when the album came out because she insisted she had an 8-track of it. I told her that I never remembered having an 8-track player anywhere, including in a car. It was released in 1974, and we were living in Alaska at the time and we had a green Vega, and I know that car did not have an 8-track. We started up the episode again without really resolving how Mom had the album. She laughed and laughed when they first go into the auditorium and the girls are rehearsing the first song from the musical; Sam's eyes just get bigger and bigger After the subtext/Destiel comments, I had to pause the episode to explain what they were referring to. Her reply was, "Oh." Laughed at poncho guy putting on his poncho in preparation, and then at all the stunned expressions after the scarecrow explodes into purple goo. Poncho guy for the win! Kept yelling "Sam stab her!" when they were in the basement Loved the ending where the camera pulls away from the car, and you see them driving off into a scene that looks very similar to the backdrop used in the musical. Also loved the car prop. She thought the girls were great singers, I told her she could get the songs online if she wanted them We then went back to start up ep1, and got through the first two before I left Dean karaoke was funny, as was the convenience store clerk. That is one of my favorite scenes; I will watch the whole episode just to get to that scene, Sam flinching every time the clerk pretends to punch someone, his snarky comments and the clerk's response She said "Awww" when Crowley was looking at his photo album of him and Dean. After Crowley got up, I said "Don't worry, he's over it now" Agreed with just about everyone on the planet that the Driving Ms Angel story was boring and needed to end She also agreed with just about everyone on the planet that the actor for the Cole storyline was too old, he looked about Dean's age. They either should've gotten a different actor, or redid the storyline so the age fit better. She also pretended to work out with Cole Again kept calling Metatron "liar" after everything he said She mentioned that it seemed in later seasons there was less figuring out new monsters and how to kill them. She refers to these as "boogedy woogedys" since she can't ever remember their names; apparently ghosts, werewolves and vampires are easy, others not so much. So she'll say "it was a boogedy woogedy episode" which always makes me laugh. 2 Link to comment
DittyDotDot October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 11 minutes ago, pixelcat said: She mentioned that it seemed in later seasons there was less figuring out new monsters and how to kill them. She refers to these as "boogedy woogedys" since she can't ever remember their names; apparently ghosts, werewolves and vampires are easy, others not so much. So she'll say "it was a boogedy woogedy episode" which always makes me laugh. I LOVE this! I'm going to start using that instead of Monster-of-the-Week episodes. That's AWESOME!!! 12 minutes ago, pixelcat said: I told her that I never remembered having an 8-track player anywhere, including in a car. It was released in 1974, and we were living in Alaska at the time and we had a green Vega, and I know that car did not have an 8-track. Oh, you're not old enough! ;) 1 Link to comment
Diane October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 Ok we did have it on 8 track, I am only 48 but I remember it. Hell guess I am old. Link to comment
Diane October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 1 hour ago, pixelcat said: Mom watch update #3 She's decided to keep going with catching up, rather than watch the new episodes. She thinks she'll get them all done this week, but I doubt it. By Sunday morning she was only 2 episodes into S10, so I'm thinking maybe next week she'll be ready. Either way she'll get at least 3 new episodes to watch back-to-back, which is how she prefers them anyway. Skipped for season 8: "Heartache", "Bitten", "Hunteri Heroici", "LARP and the Real Girl", "Man's Best Friend with Benefits", "Remember the Titans", "Freaks and Geeks", "Pac-Man Fever" (after she said she really liked Charlie, I told her that LARP and Pac-Man were Charlie-centric, should she choose to watch them. She opted to skip them for now while she's catching up but come back to them later) She loves the bunker. I guess she's glad that they finally have a place to call home (I'm sure the art deco look didn't hurt, I think my whole family is suckers for art deco which might explain why I live in an art deco building LOL) Crowley getting on her last nerve this season Enjoyed "the new Bobby" (Garth) from "Southern Comfort". This was the first time she'd seen Garth, as the other two episodes he was in I had her skip. Loved Aaron and the golem (as she referred to it, "the clay hulk") Loved meeting Grandpa Winchester. Disliked Naomi and Abaddon Liked Benny, and was sad when he sacrificed himself for Sam Most surprising of all, she has the very unpopular opinion of liking Amelia. She said unlike Dean & Lisa, you could tell Sam really liked her Skipped for season 9: "Slumber Party" (she did watch this one after I described the "Oz episode" to her, she thought it sounded like fun), "Dog Dean Afternoon", "Bad Boys", "Rock and a Hard Place", "Sharp Teeth", "The Purge", "#THINMAN", "Alex Annie Alexis Ann", "Bloodlines" I started watching with her from ep9 through the end of the season She liked Kevin and was sad when Gadreel killed him Somewhere in this season she decided she liked Crowley again due to the snarkiness While watching "First Born" she said "I want a t-shirt that says 'You're good, but I'm Crowley'" and I told her there already was one. She doesn't really wear t-shirts but I might look for one as a present :) In "Captives" she wanted to know why Kevin was using the door to leave the bunker, couldn't he just go through the door. I said probably, he and his mom aren't used to him yet being a ghost. This also got us into a conversation about what object we'd be attached to. Mom immediately said my cat for me, I told her can't be a living thing, but then remembered both the ghost in "Roadkill" and Timmy's mom in "Bad Boys" were both attached to people. Corrected it to say can't be an animal, we've never seen a ghost attach to an animal or possess one (that'd be a trick, Oh Heavenly Dog trying to punch a keyboard with a pencil in its mouth). Next guess was my pink blanket that I've had since I was 5 (which is correct, and hey don't judge). For my mom I was guessing jewelry of some sort, and she said it would be her turquoise and silver ring she's had since before I was born. I smacked my head because of course it would be that ring, she always has it no matter on a trip or at home, and she wears it a lot. Her future mother-in-law got it for her on a trip to New Mexico. My dad was a lot harder, I was thinking a watch but he just got a new one, soooo I don't know. When asked, he didn't really have an answer either (and he also guessed my cat for my LOL but he got Mom's ring right) She kept referring to Metatron as "that asshole" and "liar" Every time The First Blade was on screen she kept insisting all the teeth would've fallen out In "Mother's Little Helper" she wanted to know what happened to all the other soul factories the demon claimed were operating. Told her they never found any other reports of people acting out, so didn't know where they were. I think Sam even says this at the end of the episode "Meta Fiction" had the return of Gabriel which she was not happy with. Apparently she never liked him because he was always in the way, and I pointed out that he was the one who told them about the horsemen's rings. Didn't help though When Gavin shows up, she said that he looks different now that he's alive. I said it was a different actor, and she said "well that explains it". When Crowley leaves him in the field, she said "That's it? That's all he gets? Knows how to read, but no money, no phone, nothing?" I said yup. I wouldn't be surprised if he got hit by a car the first time he tried to cross a street We got to the last episode and had to go upstairs for dinner. Before we could go, Mom said "I have to hear MY SONG" so we played through THE ROAD SO FAR for "Do You Believe in Miracles?" When we came back, we started the episode back up at the beginning so she could hear the song again. When Dean opened his eyes and they were black, she said "Oh no" in a disgusted voice. She did not want the Dean as a demon storyline Skipped for season 10: "Paper Moon", "Ask Jeeves" (plan on watching this with her), "Hibbing 911" (told her to watch this if she had some extra time), "There's No Place Like Home", "About a Boy", "Halt & Catch Fire" (best intro to the title card ever), "The Things They Carried", "Paint it Black", "Angel Heart" I had her watch "Fan Fiction" first before going into the beginning of the season, I wanted to watch it with her and didn't think we'd get through them all to get to it. The funniest part was when Dean is outside working on the car, Mom started singing the song that was playing ("Sundown" by Gordon Lightfoot). We then had to pause for 10 min while she looked up who sang the song, then she had to play me a YouTube video of it, then we had to find out when the album came out because she insisted she had an 8-track of it. I told her that I never remembered having an 8-track player anywhere, including in a car. It was released in 1974, and we were living in Alaska at the time and we had a green Vega, and I know that car did not have an 8-track. We started up the episode again without really resolving how Mom had the album. She laughed and laughed when they first go into the auditorium and the girls are rehearsing the first song from the musical; Sam's eyes just get bigger and bigger After the subtext/Destiel comments, I had to pause the episode to explain what they were referring to. Her reply was, "Oh." Laughed at poncho guy putting on his poncho in preparation, and then at all the stunned expressions after the scarecrow explodes into purple goo. Poncho guy for the win! Kept yelling "Sam stab her!" when they were in the basement Loved the ending where the camera pulls away from the car, and you see them driving off into a scene that looks very similar to the backdrop used in the musical. Also loved the car prop. She thought the girls were great singers, I told her she could get the songs online if she wanted them We then went back to start up ep1, and got through the first two before I left Dean karaoke was funny, as was the convenience store clerk. That is one of my favorite scenes; I will watch the whole episode just to get to that scene, Sam flinching every time the clerk pretends to punch someone, his snarky comments and the clerk's response She said "Awww" when Crowley was looking at his photo album of him and Dean. After Crowley got up, I said "Don't worry, he's over it now" Agreed with just about everyone on the planet that the Driving Ms Angel story was boring and needed to end She also agreed with just about everyone on the planet that the actor for the Cole storyline was too old, he looked about Dean's age. They either should've gotten a different actor, or redid the storyline so the age fit better. She also pretended to work out with Cole Again kept calling Metatron "liar" after everything he said She mentioned that it seemed in later seasons there was less figuring out new monsters and how to kill them. She refers to these as "boogedy woogedys" since she can't ever remember their names; apparently ghosts, werewolves and vampires are easy, others not so much. So she'll say "it was a boogedy woogedy episode" which always makes me laugh. I really am getting a kick out of your mothers view points in her watch of the series. Thank you so much for sharing. 1 Link to comment
pixelcat October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 59 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: Oh, you're not old enough! ;) Hey I didn't say how old I was in 1974! (Ok I was 3, so yeah probably not old enough!) Got some more info from Dad, apparently we had a VW wagon shipped to Alaska when we first got there, and bought the Vega later (I do not remember the VW at all). But it also didn't have an 8-track player, so I'm thinking Mom's mixing up Gordon's album with another. 3 minutes ago, Diane said: I really am getting a kick out of your mothers view points in her watch of the series. Thank you so much for sharing. It's fun writing them, and I'm glad you're enjoying it :) Although this one I had to write twice, the Intarwebz ate my write-up from yesterday which made me sad. 1 Link to comment
Diane October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 1 minute ago, pixelcat said: Hey I didn't say how old I was in 1974! (Ok I was 3, so yeah probably not old enough!) Got some more info from Dad, apparently we had a VW wagon shipped to Alaska when we first got there, and bought the Vega later (I do not remember the VW at all). But it also didn't have an 8-track player, so I'm thinking Mom's mixing up Gordon's album with another. It's fun writing them, and I'm glad you're enjoying it :) Although this one I had to write twice, the Intarwebz ate my write-up from yesterday which made me sad. I was 6 in 74 loved the 8 tracks. Ugh sorry about having to write it twice, but please keep it up. Really fun to read her thoughts. Link to comment
DittyDotDot October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 I too enjoy your mom-watch updates immensely. 3 minutes ago, pixelcat said: Hey I didn't say how old I was in 1974! (Ok I was 3, so yeah probably not old enough!) Got some more info from Dad, apparently we had a VW wagon shipped to Alaska when we first got there, and bought the Vega later (I do not remember the VW at all). But it also didn't have an 8-track player, so I'm thinking Mom's mixing up Gordon's album with another. Heh, well, I guess I should out myself as younger than you. I was only a baby in 1974! ;) It's funny, though, we had an 8-track player, that fit in a cabinet with a record player, up until I was well into high school. When cassette tapes became popular, my mom bought this converter for the 8-track player. Although, I highly doubt we had any Gordon Lightfoot, which is a shame. But I've made up for my lack of music diversity as an adult. ;) 1 hour ago, pixelcat said: Somewhere in this season she decided she liked Crowley again due to the snarkiness I loved Crowley in S9, especially when he was chained in the dungeon. 1 Link to comment
Demented Daisy October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 Some discussion of the show/TPTB disrespecting the character of Dean Winchester in the Spoilers w/Spec thread. For those that feel this way (I am not one), I'm curious to know what you consider "disrespect" of the character. Link to comment
Aeryn13 October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 I`d feel a bit silly moving the conversation yet again but I think my answer would be total Bitterness territory. Link to comment
Demented Daisy October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 That's entirely your prerogative, but having it here allows for more discussion, I think. I've always felt that the Bitterness thread is more for airing grievances than generating debate. But whatever works. Link to comment
Aeryn13 October 25, 2016 Share October 25, 2016 I did move my answer to Bitterness because in the end, I can`t not be about this topic and since my main grievance is the writers playing the versus game and zero sum game, I can`t not go there when explaining my feelings. Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 So...not quite sure where to put this, since it isn't a spoiler, (it's from a S11 ep) but I do want to reference S12 eps also, and there might be some speculation... Hope here is good. Mods, please move if not appropriate. Anyway, I was rewatching "Into The Mystic" - and a few things: Not sure where County Cork is. Northern Ireland (which is part of GB) or Ireland, (which is not.) I guess it makes a difference toward the evil BMOL claim that there hasn't been a monster killing in X number of years. Also, FYI, that was "30 years ago" in S11. Eileen's maternal grandfather, Edward Durbin (sp?) II, was inducted into the MOL (American chapter apparently) in 1939 and was part of a "small delegation" that was sent to Europe. So hmm....were there no MOL chapters in Europe until then? I wonder if the Show in S12 will remember that tidbit. Eileen also called the organization "now defunct" - I'm guessing this ep was written before they decided to create the BMOL for S12. There was information about Ed in the bunker, which at first made me wonder if there might be information about the rest of the BMOL at the bunker also. But then I thought, if they established their own chapters, local records might be housed at their own headquarters. (Drat! I was hoping Sam and Dean could dredge up some info on Lady SheAin'tNoLady and her evil cohort Mick.) Link to comment
Boopsahoy October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 I remember 8 tracks. Everyone had these big cases to carry them around. I was 18 in 1974 so I remember them well. 2 Link to comment
bearcatfan October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 2 hours ago, Boopsahoy said: I remember 8 tracks. Everyone had these big cases to carry them around. I was 18 in 1974 so I remember them well. Yeah, I remember them too. My brother had one. They weren't just in cars. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 November 1, 2016 Share November 1, 2016 Brought over from the "Love Hurts" episode thread: 10 hours ago, catrox14 said: I have to say that never made a bit of sense to me how Sam went from "Dean, I want to LIVE so I should do the trials and you shouldn't" to "I don't care if I live anymore". Holy character whiplash, Batman! It was a definite change I agree, but I bought it because of what happened between those two events. Sam went from being positive that he could do it to being physically beaten down by that time. I think the trials were affecting his mental state as well. He started having doubts again about his being tainted, and he seemed so hopeful - delusionally so - that the trials were purifying him. But probably the most damaging was Crowley and his assholery. Crowley so deserved to die after that. I think Sam knowing those people died because of him - because he was doing the trials - and especially watching Sarah die in front of him just broke Sam. Sarah represented the "win" for Sam, the good they do, and also the hope that that kind of life exists out there, and if even that is an illusion and can just be taken away... well Sam kinda lost it and his hope there. It made him question everything, including how much good he really does. I could accept that both of those things exist inside Sam... It's similar to how I can accept that while Dean at times seems to have way too much self-loathing, he at the same time seems to be really confident that he is making the right choice (as we discussed in the "Love Hurts" thread) and also seems confident in being the leader in stressful situations. I chalk it up to the brothers' crazy lives that they can have these somewhat conflicting facets to their personality. Quote IMO, Sam's words that he had done his penance by jumping into the pit was 100% true and intended for the audience to understand it as true for Sam and not denial on his part. I didn't see it so much as denial, but maybe that Sam was being hopeful? He was - as he told Bobby later - putting all his "crazy" in one box. My theory for a while - and I still see its merits - is that that included his guilt. But as soon as he started letting the crazy out of that box - represented by his letting Lucifer "in," things didn't go so well for Sam. Quote IMO, Sam agreeing to help Dean with Amara is the Sam that thinks Dean has no hope. The difference now is that Dean has taken himself out of the fight whereas before in s5, Sam and Bobby put Dean on lockdown and is s8, Sam conveniently was there to kill the Hellhound instead of letting Dean do it. I saw the same pattern here, with the camera focusing on Sam in the closing scene, instead of Dean, which IMO was shifting the story to Sam and him saving the world from Amara. It would be a setup for Sam to have win and redemption for not figuring out that the visions were from Lucifer and not God. That's why I was quite annoyed with it. I can see why you might be annoyed, because you were anticipating a pattern. The potentially ironic thing was that I was anticipating a different pattern, because I was just as sure that Sam would have very little to nothing to do with the Amara resolution, and that the end of the episode was a red herring. And I'd gotten pretty good at predicting the Carver years, so I had prepared myself way before we got to the finale. 2 Link to comment
MysteryGuest November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 (edited) This topic has come up a few times recently with Mary's return, and I need some clarification. I know that Mary made a deal to bring John back after Yellow Eyes killed him. At the time, she had no idea what the repercussions of that deal would be. We, of course, know that Yellow Eyes came to collect when Sam was 6 months old, and so our story begins. We also have the angels telling Sam and Dean that it was fate that brought Mary and John together, and nothing they could have done would have changed that. So can we assume then that the only "bad" things that came from Mary's deal were Sam's penchant for demon blood, and turning John, Sam and Dean into hunters? And that Sam and Dean were still destined to be the chosen vessels for Michael and Lucifer, regardless of Mary's deal with Azazel? I'm trying to confirm that we had two separate but concurrent storylines going on. It seems like it, but we go round and round on this and frankly, I'm not sure it's ever really been spelled out, but maybe I just missed it. Unless, of course, I have it completely wrong, which is always a possibility. Edited November 3, 2016 by MysteryGuest 1 Link to comment
SueB November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said: This topic has come up a few times recently with Mary's return, and I need some clarification. I know that Mary made a deal to bring John back after Yellow Eyes killed him. At the time, she had no idea what the repercussions of that deal would be. We, of course, know that Yellow Eyes came to collect when Sam was 6 months old, and so our story begins. We also have the angels telling Sam and Dean that it was fate that brought Mary and John together, and nothing they could have done would have changed that. So can we assume then that the only "bad" things that came from Mary's deal were Sam's penchant for demon blood, and turning John, Sam and Dean into hunters? And that Sam and Dean were still destined to be the chosen vessels for Michael and Lucifer, regardless of Mary's deal with Azazel? I'm trying to confirm that we had two separate but concurrent storylines going on. It seems like it, but we go round and round on this and frankly, I'm not sure it's ever really been spelled out, but maybe I just missed it. Unless, of course, I have it completely wrong, which is always a possibility. *Puts on Katherine Janeway's thinking cap.* SHOW FACTS:- - Getting John and Mary together was a big deal to the angels. Cupid said they 'couldn't stand each other' until after the angels got them together and then they were 'perfect'. - Dean said to Mary 'March 23, 1972, you walked out of a movie theater "Slaughterhouse-Five." You loved it, and you bumped into a big Marine and you knocked him flat on his ass. You were embarrassed, you laughedit off, he said you could make it up to him with a cup of coffee. So you went to, uh, Mulroney's and you talked and he was cute and he knew the words to every Zepplin song, so when he asked for your number you gave it to him, even though you knew your dad would be pissed. That was the night that you met... " "John Winchester". - Monday, April 30, 1973, Dean arrives in Lawrence Kansas and meets John Winchester and Mary Campbell. The next day, May 1st, Dean figures out YED is there and get the gun after telling Samuel that he's going to Liddy Walsh's house on the May 2nd. - The next day May 2nd, while cleaning guns, Mary asks Samuel where Dean went and he mentions the Walsh's. Mary says she's a friend and insists on going over to her house. The actual journal entry: Quote Liddy Walsh, Haneyville, Kansas May 02, 1973. Found gutted in her home. Some believe she inflicted the wounds to herself due to her husbands terminal cancer. What we saw Azazel making his 'pitch' and then being interrupted. Azazel smokes out. Dean and Mary are talking about how Azazel said he liked her when Azazel!Samuel leaves the house saying 'Liddy a strong kid, she'll be fine.' Later, taking to Azazel!Samuel (not knowing Samuel has been possessed), Dean confesses the time travel and says that he thinks that the run-in at the Walsh house is when Azazel catch's Mary's scent. When talking about 'why Mary' he says "because they're strong, they're pure. They eat their Wheaties. My own little Master race. They're ideal breeders." He also said "So far, she's my favorite." - Back in 2008, Cas tells Dean, "Destiny can't be changed, Dean. All roads lead to the same destination." And Cas comes clean essentially admitting they were trying to find out Azazel's endgame (which Azazel specifically said he wasn't going to tell Dean, or the 'angel's on his shoulder'). And then clarifies that what he needs to stop is the dangerous road Sam is on. HOW TO RECONCILE ALL OF THIS (the SueB theory): 1) ISSUE: Dean's story suggests love at the first meeting. Cupid said it was difficult. THEORY: We've seen plenty of evidence that Angels can wipe memories. I'd say that they nudged Mary and John together and they hated each other so they wiped BOTH of their memories and arranged a meet/cute outside the movie theater. Maybe they had to try a couple of times before they got the right circumstances. In this case, a cupid literally pushes Mary into John, knocking him down. The cupid then leaves the mark on their hearts and they fall for each other. 2) ISSUE: If Dean had not gone back in time, would Mary have wound up at Liddy's Walsh's? THEORY: I think the answer is "NO." Dean's attempt to prevent the past is precisely what caused it to happen. This is employing the temporal mechanics theories ala Star Trek Voyager (see episode "Parallax"): Quote JANEWAY: One of the more difficult concepts to grasp in temporal mechanics is that sometimes effect can precede cause. A reaction can be observed before the action which initiated it. Supporting rationale: The writers ha"ve referenced Star Trek and time travel more than once. I think they accept the general temporal mechanics theory stated above. In addition to the Back to the Future equivalent theories. 2a) ISSUE: But the only reason Dean MENTIONED Liddy Walsh was because of John's journal. THEORY: True. But if you look at the actual journal entry, Azazel didn't MAKE the deal with Liddy. Instead, the journal indicates Liddy was gutted. That tracks with Azazel!Samuel being the last to be alone with Liddy. He simply gutted her while Dean and Mary were talking. Which would be the logical outcome of being interrupted. Otherwise he would have sealed the deal with Liddy or simply left. No reason to kill her if she refused. So, in this case the 'effect' was Liddy being gutted near a recent YED spotting and John recording it in his journal. The "cause" was the interruption by Samuel, Mary and Dean. 2b) ISSUE: Wait... but how did the Angel's know to send Dean to the past to cause the result they wanted? THEORY: Well, they WANTED Sam to be Lucifer's vessel and Dean to be the Righteous Man. So, after ensuring that they were born, after Dean became the Righteous Man, they sent Dean to the past to make sure Azazel spotted Mary. Again, effect (Mary's death and subsequent events) preceded cause (the Angel's sending Dean back to trigger Azazel spotting Mary). 3) ISSUE: But WHY Mary? THEORY: Azazel said it himself - she was special "strong, pure, good breeder". And he sniffed Dean to see whether he was a special kid. The answer is clear IMO, Azazel knew Mary was special the moment he saw her because of her bloodline. I'm going to guess that he searched out many people but could smell a bloodline that could support an archangel. Maybe the others could support Angels, but when he smelt Mary -- well, she had the "good stuff". She had the bloodline strength for an archangel. And so did John. So... voila, she was ALWAYS going to catch Azazel's attention if they got into the same room. Sending Dean back into the past at the right moment put Dean on the YED trail and gave Azazel the opportunity to get leverage over Mary. Hence, she made the deal. 4) ISSUE: Does this mean it's Dean's fault? THEORY: Oh Hell no. The Angels manipulated it. Just like Michael said. They nudged things to go in their direction IN THIS CASE. Because it wasn't enough to get two children with archangel bloodlines, they had to get one to be prepped to be a vessel for Lucifer and one to be prepped to be a vessel for Michael. Please note: I think it was angels at the Zachariah and higher level making these things work. Cas didn't know. He genuinely thought Dean was going back to find out Azazel's endgame and to get Dean to learn that Sam was tainted by Azazel. Which leads to Dean finding out Sam is using his psychic powers again. And the Angels WANTED the tension to build between the brothers. 5) ADDITIONAL FUN FACTS: The deal with Mary was made exactly 10 years before she gave birth. Sam was born May 2nd, 1983. Precisely 10 years after Azazel made the deal with Mary. And no, I don't think that's coincidence. I think that was part of the effects of the deal. So back to the question: Quote I'm trying to confirm that we had two separate but concurrent storylines going on. My answer is NO. We had ONE story line where the Angels manipulated a set of archangel-class vessels who were brothers. They put manuevered Dean to the past which put Mary into the same room as Azazel. This allowed them to manipulate Azazel into selecting Sam, which is what the Angels wanted all along. *goes in search of aspirin because temporal paradoxes give EVERYONE a headache, not just Captain Janeway* Edited November 3, 2016 by SueB 6 Link to comment
Myrelle November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 IMO, angels are little better than demons in the SPN-verse-and the little better is mostly thanks to Castiel, who has only ever wanted to be an angel AKA follow God's commandment where it concerned humans-to protect them and treat them as God wanted them treated. They can and often do present choices to humans and humans make the choices, but with the level of misrepresentation that an angel like Lucifer exhibits, demons seem quite similar to many angels in that regard, at this point, IMO. Humans are better off being human than any other being at this point, IMO, because the SPN God favors them- even as messed up as they are-and maybe that's because they are actually and genuinely the most true reflection of him-the Creator-and the Creator would always place the most positive light on himself, even if he did create everything(or if everything simply grew out of him and/or his creation). 1 Link to comment
ahrtee November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 54 minutes ago, SueB said: *goes in search of aspirin because temporal paradoxes give EVERYONE a headache, not just Captain Janeway* I'm not sure I followed everything, but bravo for all the work! I knew someone in ST had complained about time paradoxes giving them a headache but I couldn't remember who, so I was going to quote someone else: "I'm sitting in a laundromat reading about myself sitting in a laundromat reading about myself. My head hurts." 3 Link to comment
Myrelle November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said: We also have the angels telling Sam and Dean that it was fate that brought Mary and John together, and nothing they could have done would have changed that. So can we assume then that the only "bad" things that came from Mary's deal were Sam's penchant for demon blood, and turning John, Sam and Dean into hunters? And that Sam and Dean were still destined to be the chosen vessels for Michael and Lucifer, regardless of Mary's deal with Azazel? Without Mary's deal there would not have been a Sam and Dean. John would have died, the natural order would have been preserved and there would have never been two "true" vessels to enact The Apocalypse that was prophesied by God, I suppose-although we're not really sure where that prophesy truly came from. The demons had one about a righteous man, but was that the same prophesy as The Apocalyptic one? We'll never know. Were any of the prophesies real or were they all just manipulations and/or info handed down to help to ensnare humans into making choices that would ensure an apocalypse-because in the end it all had to come down to human choices that would allow archangels to host the correct human bodies that would culminate in a repeat of the battle between Lucifer and Michael that sent Lucifer to the cage the first time. And since that didn't happen as a result of one of the humans refusing to play the game, has everything now been off-set? Everything depends on human choice and that's what both the angels and demons have to deal with. They, themselves, don't have that type of control over things. All either species can ever hope to do is influence humanity-who controls everything through the power of free will. IOW, all of the stories on this show, from the great to the small, are all about human choice, in the end; and the whys and wherefores of those choices. Link to comment
ahrtee November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, Myrelle said: Without Mary's deal there would not have been a Sam and Dean. John would have died, the natural order would have been preserved and there would have never been two "true" vessels to enact The Apocalypse that was prophesied by God, I suppose-although we're not really sure where that prophesy truly came from. The demons had one about a righteous man, but was that the same prophesy as The Apocalyptic one? We'll never know. That depends on if you believe the archangels (or Chuck) really wanted them to become the true vessels...because if it really was their intention, I don't think they'd let John's death get in the way when they could just bring him back and wipe everyone's memories. After all, who knows how many times they've reset the world to get the end result they wanted? It doesn't seem to me that the angels were particular fans of the natural order. As to where the prophecy came from, well, Gabriel mentioned that "ever since dad turned the lights on we always knew it was going to end with you," which doesn't sound so much like a prophecy (at least, not for humans) as a expectation for the angels. (I also think the "righteous man" prophecy was from the angels, not the demons, but I could be wrong. Both Cas and Alistair knew it, but the demons needed to know it in order to break the first seal and start the apocalypse, while the angels needed it to "end it".) 7 minutes ago, Myrelle said: Were any of the prophesies real or were they all just manipulations and/or info handed down to help to ensnare humans into making choices that would ensure an apocalypse-because in the end it all had to come down to human choices that would allow archangels to host the correct human bodies that would culminate in a repeat of the battle between Lucifer and Michael that sent Lucifer to the cage the first time. And since that didn't happen as a result of one of the humans refusing to play the game, has everything now been off-set? I think most of the prophecies (that is, the ones in Revelations they kept quoting) were signs/guideposts to get the Winchesters in place for their roles. But, to me, the angels were so flummoxed that they didn't follow the script that it makes me believe maybe it was a test from Chuck to see how the humans/Winchesters would behave with the free will they were given. After all, he kept resurrecting them (and Cas) to make sure they got down to the final choice and then let them make it themselves. He could have tipped the scales any way he wanted it before then. 16 minutes ago, Myrelle said: Everything depends on human choice and that's what both the angels and demons have to deal with. They, themselves, don't have that type of control over things. All either species can ever hope to do is influence humanity-who controls everything through the power of free will. IOW, all of the stories on this show, from the great to the small, are all about human choice, in the end; and the whys and wherefores of those choices. I've always had the theory that the main meaning of the show was to celebrate free will, and the importance of choice. My thought was that Chod loved the idea of free will, was disappointed that his children (angels, not humans) refused to accept it, and that's why he sent Cas to the Winchesters in the first place (and kept resetting him) every time: so that he would pick up the concept from TFW and spread it to the angels. Because, from what we've seen, angels (and probably demons as well) *could* have free will, they just didn't want it, couldn't take it (because the archangels or the King of Hell wouldn't allow it), or were afraid of it. JMO, of course. 1 Link to comment
Boopsahoy November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 5 hours ago, ahrtee said: 've always had the theory that the main meaning of the show was to celebrate free will, and the importance of choice. My thought was that Chod loved the idea of free will, was disappointed that his children (angels, not humans) refused to accept it, and that's why he sent Cas to the Winchesters in the first place (and kept resetting him) every time: so that he would pick up the concept from TFW and spread it to the angels. Because, from what we've seen, angels (and probably demons as well) *could* have free will, they just didn't want it, couldn't take it (because the archangels or the King of Hell wouldn't allow it), or were afraid of it. JMO, of course. I like this theory! 2 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 ::Ahem:: I just want to put this out there: Dean [to Metatron]: I'm blaming you for Kevin. I'm blaming you for taking Cas' grace. Hell I'm blaming you for the Cubs not winning the world series in the last hundred freakin' years. What ever it is I'm blaming you. [Metatron dies] THE CUBS WIN THE WORLD SERIES!!!! :D 6 Link to comment
SueB November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: ::Ahem:: I just want to put this out there: Dean [to Metatron]: I'm blaming you for Kevin. I'm blaming you for taking Cas' grace. Hell I'm blaming you for the Cubs not winning the world series in the last hundred freakin' years. What ever it is I'm blaming you. [Metatron dies] THE CUBS WIN THE WORLD SERIES!!!! :D Yeah. I think that probably explains it. So, Cubs fans should send Amara a fruit basket! 1 Link to comment
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