OUAT vs. Other Fairy Tales: Compare & Contrast

[Serena]

As an Arthuriana nerd, I thought the book was good. I don't mind high school adaptations of classics, because it's one thing to tell teenagers, "This Great Work of Literature is a classic because it is relevant to the human condition even in modern times!" It's another thing entirely to prove it by showing how the same story could actually play out in high school.

 

And from what I remember, although this might just be Nostalgia Goggles, there was this secret Order of the Bear that observed the Arthurian plot playing out in every generation (due to reincarnation) and would try to track it down and watch what happened. The tragedy was that the Mordred reincarnation was growing into his character too soon, when they were all still in high school, and the King Arthur reincarnation would have been defeated without even doing any good to the world yet because he was in high school. I thought that was an interesting bit of perspective.

 

But the movie made it out like Arthur's football game was the most important cosmic event ever (that was not in the book), and the twist on the twist, that the main character herself was a reincarnation of somebody in the Arthurian story pattern, made sense in the book but not in the movie because they changed the character that Elaine was a reincarnation of but they didn't change much else in the movie's story that would make it make sense aaargh...

Ahah, exactly. I know the Disney "twist" wanted to score some feminism points, but I thought she was already plenty feminist in the book without the dumb ass change. 

[legaleagle53]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."  I've never read the story, but I've seen adaptations of it, and it's fascinating to me to see what happens when someone from the modern era basically conquers Camelot using the technology from his own era (and by the way, Merlin and Arthur are jerks in the story, although Arthur at least partially comes around eventually!).

[daxx]

Love that movie! Gotta love Bing, Crosby that is not the search engine.

I should read the book.

Edited August 21, 2015 by daxx

[HoodlumSheep]

I feel like watching A Kid in King Arthur's Court. Sadly I do not own it. They addressed past-meeting-present/future stuff like roller skates and boom boxes which I wish Once would do more often. I know it's a corny movie, but I find it enjoyable.

Edited August 21, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

If "Once" had an HBO spinoff, they could dive right into the Camelot tale.  They could jump forward 20 years into the future.  The daughter of Hook and Dark Emma's name is Morgan le Fay and she comes to Storybrooke in the premiere (no one knows about her since she was conceived in secret).  She seduces Henry, who isn't aware that she's his sister.  Morgana becomes pregnant with Mordred, who would eventually kill Henry in the series finale.

[Curio]

Honestly, that wouldn't even need to be on HBO. I'm pretty sure Once has had several story lines sketchier than that on the show already.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

I'm pretty sure Once has already had several story lines sketchier than that on the show already.

True.

However, we'd have seen at least 68% of the cast naked, and we'd know beyond a shadow of a doubt which characters were having sex with their significant others. We may not know anything else relevant about them, but we'd know they were having sex. 

[legaleagle53]

True.

However, we'd have seen at least 68% of the cast naked, and we'd know beyond a shadow of a doubt which characters were having sex with their significant others. We may not know anything else relevant about them, but we'd know they were having sex. 

 

And not because Snow needed to rest and David was helping her rest, either!

[OnceUponAJen]

And not because Snow needed to rest and David was helping her rest, either!

And we wouldn't have code words for sex like "tacos" and "coffee."

[Mari]

Nope.

 

Also--I forgot to add earlier:

 

Considering their "Evil Cleavage" costuming, certain characters wardrobes would look like something from an ancient Minoan fresco or statue.

 

Regina would likely have a sudden affection for snakes.

[Camera One]

Don't forget "that was the best... rest I've had for quite some time".

[Mari]

Gah.  Blech.

 

We'd probably pan away from Regina and Robin's . . .  entanglements to a  picture of frozen Marian.  Just for the extra sordid.

[Camera One]

We'd see Frozen Marion in the foreground during.

[MaiLuna]

Almost everyone here seems to really know Arthurian mythology and I know nearly nothing. What movies would you recommend for beginners like me?

[Camera One]

I'm sort of in the same boat.  I started by watching the animated "Sword in the Stone".  Then I read one or two children's books about Camelot and Arthur's knights.  And now I'm reading the Mary Stewart trilogy about Merlin.  I'm open to some recommendations as well in terms of well done movies.

 

At this point, I'm just filling up on Arthur and Camelot so my first impressions aren't from "Once".

Edited August 24, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I'd recommend "Excalibur" personally. It follows closely "One and Future King".

 

Honestly though, I don't think it matters whether you know the legend or not.  

they've already changed a couple of things as far as I can tell

[Shanna Marie]

The musical Camelot offers a decent shorthand, though I wasn't overly enthralled by the movie version. Richard Harris is okay as Arthur (though he was much, much better years later when I saw him in the stage version), but the singing is nowhere near the quality of the original cast. If you can find a good live production, it's an interesting show. I think it possibly gives a bit too much sympathy to Lancelot and Guinevere, but it does really show the progression of how their feelings came about. If you can't see it live, the movie is okay, but try to find a copy of the original cast album to really hear the music, if music is your thing.

 

I believe it was based on The Once and Future King, the same source material as The Sword in the Stone, but covering a different period of Arthur's life.

[Camera One]

Honestly though, I don't think it matters whether you know the legend or not.

 

I am avoiding spoilers, but I suspect I'm totally over-studying for this arc.  Based on what we know from Season 4 alone, Merlin should already be as offended as Glinda.

[MaiLuna]

I'd recommend "Excalibur" personally. It follows closely "One and Future King".

 

Honestly though, I don't think it matters whether you know the legend or not.  

they've already changed a couple of things as far as I can tell

We don't have to know it, but it's fun to get the references and see what kind of changes they've made to the original story.

[YaddaYadda]

We don't have to know it, but it's fun to get the references and see what kind of changes they've made to the original story.

For sure, and let's hope they're not the kind of changes that we got with Robin Hood. I'll never look at Robin Hood the same after this show.

Edited August 24, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Faemonic]

We don't have to know it, but it's fun to get the references and see what kind of changes they've made to the original story.

 

I started with The Mists of Avalon which I think is the most cohesive and inclusive, but it did tell the tale from the villain's point of view (Morgan Le Fay) and added "realistic" elements that aren't generally in the mythology, such as the cultural tension between Celtic paganism and Christianity.

 

There isn't actually an original story, but generally, the plot goeth thusly:

 

1. Uther Pendragon goes to war with some dude who isn't important because Uther wins. He marries the defeated dude's wife, Igrainne, along with some dodgy stuff about disguising as her husband. They give birth to Arthur and have him fostered off. Morgan Le Fay is somewhere in this family tree.

2. There's this sword stuck in a rock that some prophecy says the True King of Britain will pull out. Toddler Arthur is out on an errand, one of his foster brothers needs a sword, so Toddler Arthur casually pulls a sword out of a stone. Everybody else who had made a big ol' quest of it might've grumbled a bit.

3. Teenaged Arthur gets set up with Guinevere. He also hires the best knights in all the realm to sit around a table they call The Round Table, because it's round, so it represents equality instead of some long rectangular table with King Arthur at the head. Arthur still gets Kingship, though, so it's not exactly a democracy.

4. Remember the sword in the stone? I don't. Apparently there's a strange woman who takes to lying in ponds and distributing legendary swords (or just the one, Excalibur) as a basis for government. That's the Lady of the Lake, who's a total weirdo--that is, a magical being, but she doesn't much except simply be Mysterious. She gives Arthur a sword, and somehow elsewhere it comes with a scabbard (a sword-holder) that prevents injury to Arthur as long as he wears it.

5. The Lady of the Lake isn't the only weirdo. Arthur also comes across this really old guy who shapeshifts by magic to try to teach Arthur life lessons, and who also remembers the future. That weirdo is Merlin the Magician, who becomes an advisor at the court of Camelot.

6. Things are going great! Arthur's people are winning wars, uniting the kingdoms, fighting dragons, rescuing damsels... then things go wrong.

6a. Arthur has sex with his sister Morgan for some reason, and she gives birth to Mordred and steals the scabbard from Arthur.

6b. Queen Guinevere is captured. Sir Lancelot du Lac from the Knights of the Round Table rescues her. They start an affair. The other knights catch them in the act and go, "That's not cool, bro." Guinevere checks into a nunnery after the end of it all, and Lancelot wanders around less like a knight errant and more like a hobo who's losing his mind. I loathe this love triangle plot point, by the way, but it's grown into the most famous thing in Arthurian legend ever.

6c. A woman named Nimue or Vivian seduces Merlin and kills him somehow.

6d. While not really a wrong thing, it's peacetime and the knights are bored, so they all go looking for The Holy Grail (which is a cup that caught the blood of Jesus Christ during his crucifixion).

7. So, King Arthur has got this illegitimate child of incest who's growing up to really hate him, his marriage is falling apart, his magic-wielding mentor can't be found, and all his best bros have set off somewhere. Mordred engages Arthur in battle and defeats the king. The Lady of the Lake takes Arthur away to the Isles of Avalon, though, so it gets about that Arthur's not really dead. He's probably comatose, and should be back any time now to rule Britain again. He's probably all better from the injuries that Mordred gave him. He definitely wouldn't have aged. Aaand that's why Arthur is the Once and Future King.

 

The thing is, the whole mythos is...expansive. It swallows up other legends like the Attack of the Blob. Each of the Knights get an episode of their own adventures, and a few of them have kids who grow up to be Knights of the Round Table and get adventures of their own. So, that gets complicated quickly...

 

Avalon is also known as the Isle of Apples, but actual apples don't really feature as memorably as in Snow White, so that may or may not be a reference opportunity. Like the White Hart. Or the time that an Elaine or was it an Eleanor disguised herself as Queen Guinevere to seduce Lancelot (who marries her, they have a kid named Galahad, and it's Galahad who finds the Holy Grail when his dad couldn't because Galahad is pure of heart. Unlike his dad.) Or the romantic subplot of Tristan and Isolde. Or the Green Man who grows his head back if you chop it off. Or the Fisher King whom Sir Percival must ask a question that heals him. Or Elaine Ascalot, a.k.a. the Lady of Shalott, and the peculiar conditions of her curse. Some people like to make Lancelot related to the Lady of the Lake (because his name is "du Lac" or "from the lake") but it doesn't usually come up. Even the fairy tale of Tom Thumb gets an Arthurian tie-in.

 

It can be a challenge to place anything in the "canon" of Arthurian legend, (or, rather, a challenge to exclude anything as a reference to Arthurian legend) because it runs the whole gamut between history and fairy tale.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Faemonic

[Souris]

I've seen most every Arthurian movie and none of them have I found to be very satisfying. There's usually one or two aspects of each that I really like, but IMO there has yet to be a fully successful version. Excalibur and Camelot come closest to me.

[Serena]

I remember the Camelot tv show. The Arthur in that show was a really, really, REALLY huge douche. Merlin wasn't much better. Morgana is Uther's first born daughter, then Uther kills her mother to marry Arthur's mother. Then he dies and I guess Arthur goes off somewhere and is fostered? At some point Merlin decides Morgana can't rule, so he goes off to find Arthur who's basically still a teenager and crowns him King over his grown ass, first born sister. She hadn't actually done anything evil at that point, and Arthur was a moron, so it really looked like good old fashioned sexism on Merlin's part to decide he should be King over her. Add to that the fact that Arthur's actor was weak, and Morgana was played by Eva Green, and it was really difficult to sympathize with the "good guys".

Edited August 24, 2015 by Serena

[YaddaYadda]

You forgot the part about him meeting Guinevere who was married to one of his knights (not Lancelot).  That show was terrible.  I remember  being really angry at the whole thing. None of it made sense. It's fine to flip a legend on its rear and kick it a couple of times, but that was just some serious self-indulgence right there.

 

I don't think Once can do worst than that even if they tried their best.

[Mari]

For sure, and let's hope they're not the kind of changes that we got with Robin Hood. I'll never look at Robin Hood the same after this show.

I just tell myself it's like the Dread Pirate Roberts--the name was passed down, and the real Robin and Marian are living their lives in Patigonia.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm one of the lucky few that is unaffected by our not-so-good version of Robin Hood (sorry Sean, love ya!). When I hear "Robin Hood," I always think of the fox. :P and then the Men in Tights version, and then Errol Flynn (who is the epitome of all Robin Hoods, but I grew up with the fox and the 'Tights' version, so he's 3rd on the list).

I have The Mists of Avalon. I read it once.

Everyone sleeps with everyone. Lots of bitterness. Everyone grows old. People die. Guinevere needed glasses.

It's an okay book. It encompasses a lot. I did want to strangle Guinevere a lot.

Edited August 24, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Writing Wrongs]

You should watch Charmed's episode "Sword and the City"

http://charmed.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_and_the_City/Plot

Baby Wyatt is the next King Arthur. Or something.

[Camera One]

I must have watched that episode way back when but I have no remembrance of it, LOL.

[Panopticon]

The musical Camelot offers a decent shorthand, though I wasn't overly enthralled by the movie version. Richard Harris is okay as Arthur (though he was much, much better years later when I saw him in the stage version), but the singing is nowhere near the quality of the original cast. If you can find a good live production, it's an interesting show. I think it possibly gives a bit too much sympathy to Lancelot and Guinevere, but it does really show the progression of how their feelings came about. If you can't see it live, the movie is okay, but try to find a copy of the original cast album to really hear the music, if music is your thing.

 

Interesting. I always thought that the musical Camelot turned Lancelot and Guinevere into caricatures and made Arthur the only sympathetic character. Guinevere comes off as a brat who falls for an arrogant boorish movie star because he's famous.  I do enjoy it, though-- stage version and cast recording, not movie. 

 

My point of view is probably skewed because the first versions of the Arthurian legend that really made an impression on me were the courtly love stories I had to read in high school French class. In those, Arthur is more a symbol than a person. The whole point is that Lancelot and Guinevere need to be noble and put their duty to the king above their love. The Once and Future King bends over backwards to make Arthur a full-fledged person (somewhat to the detriment of the other two sides of the triangle), and the musical Camelot takes it a step further. 

 

Other than Chretien de Troyes' legends and Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, the version that sticks with me the most is Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy, plus the fourth book about Mordred. Her Mordred in The Wicked Day is a thing of beauty.

 

It always interested me that as cheesy as the BBC's Merlin series was, the title character had a lot of personality traits in common with Mary Stewart's Merlin, despite the completely different background and situation. I'm assuming that that was not a mistake. 

 

And I'm prepared to be very insulted on behalf of Merlin if Once portrays him the way I expect that it will.

[Faemonic]

I have The Mists of Avalon. I read it once. Everyone sleeps with everyone. Lots of bitterness. Everyone grows old. People die. Guinevere needed glasses. It's an okay book. It encompasses a lot. I did want to strangle Guinevere a lot.

There's also a movie version of The Mists of Avalon that streamlined it, and I recommend it precisely because it encompasses a lot. Pity about that version of Queen Guinevere, though, she makes Sansa Stark look mature and likable. I hope the Once version makes her kickass like Bandit Snow, and the whole affair with Lancelot was a big misunderstanding! But these writers love the love triangles.

[Camera One]

That sounds a whole lot like making Regina sympathetic while the "good guys" are shown in negative light.

[Faemonic]

That sounds a whole lot like making Regina sympathetic while the "good guys" are shown in negative light.

You mean The Mists of Avalon? Oh, I think it still works. The big lesson at the end was that Morgan wasn't supposed to use her pagan fairy magic to try to change the world, because The Gods (including the Christian God) had a plan that was better and bigger than her ego. She earned her legacy of villainy with her hubris, and had to make her peace with that. She even gets into a debate with Lancelot at the end about their terrible life choices. Morgan blames it all on Fate, whereas Lancelot owns up to his foibles because (he says) he has to at least believe in Free Will else there's no point in living even the crappy life he's lived. They agree to disagree, but part ways as very lonely ruined people. It's like Hook and Regina's moral philosophy debates, except if Regina actually chewed on the self-awareness Hook offered her. Queen Guinevere was characterized awfully--in my opinion, she has been badly characterized since Lancelot became a big thing, because I'm a contemporary audience member for whom there is hardly any excuse for adultery--but everyone else was fine even when they didn't all rally to Morgan's hippie tree-hugging cause. When they do, they don't end well, because Morgan had the wrong idea all along about how to shape their nation.

[Camera One]

That sounds like an interesting book.  I think I might read it, but I still need to finish Merlin's perspective and then I'll probably read the T.H. White version of the story.

[YaddaYadda]

I've always enjoyed the Mists of Avalon.  I always thought one of the sad things in it is how the sibling bond breaks between Morgan and Arthur. She was practically raising him before he was sent away for his safety and even after the whole incest episode (which they're basically tricked into), they're still rather close to each other, but it gets lost because he's trying to do the right thing for his wife who has gone off the deep end basically and Morgan is freaking out over the spread of Christianity and he's basically stuck between two religious fanatics.  

 

The final lines when Arthur is dying and then sent on the barge on his way to Avalon to return someday, is very heart breaking. He's the most sympathetic character in the book. He tries with everyone, but everyone has their own agenda.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I felt so bad for Arthur. He was probably the most sympathetic in the book. He just wanted to please everyone, but of course that's impossible to do. And the poor fellow got stuck with one of the most awful versions of Guinevere ever. Ugh. she was just so awful. I probably hate her more than Regina.

Edited August 25, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

Guinevere was down right hateful in that book and off her rocker. It's like I can see her viewpoint on this, where she can't have children and he's already had one, so she's basically the problem in the couple and then Lancelot comes back to court and he got married and has his own kid and she feels betrayed by that as well and then there's Morgan whom she feels Arthur loves best out of everyone ever, which he actually does. 

 

But I just wanted her to die. By the middle of the book, I wanted the woman to just. drop. dead. 

[SilverShadow]

I really like the 90s Merlin Miniseries with Sam Neal as Merlin and Helena Bonham Carter as Morgan.

[Souris]

I highly recommend Persia Woolley's Guinevere-centric trilogy of novels. They're why I actually like Guinevere, as it's her story and makes her very sympathetic. They're my favorites of all the Arthurian tales I've read or seen. I don't know how readily available they are these days, though.

 

There was one Arthurian novel I slammed shut in disgust when the author compared something in the story to the size of a football field.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Souris

[Spartan Girl]

I've noticed Guinevere is unsympathetic in almost every Arthurian book and movie she's in. With the exceptions of the feminist retellings, she's either portrayed as a fickle ninny or a vain harridan that treats both Arthur and Lancelot like crap. I've always felt sorry for Arthur, since in most versions he knows about the affair but willingly looks the other way because he loves both of them and thus can't bring himself to publicly condemn them.

Anyway, I'm interested in seeing how OUAT spin will turn out.

[Souris]

I've noticed Guinevere is unsympathetic in almost every Arthurian book and movie she's in. With the exceptions of the feminist retellings, she's either portrayed as a fickle ninny or a vain harridan that treats both Arthur and Lancelot like crap. 

 

 

Thanks, Chretien de Troyes!

[Camera One]

The Sorcerer made him do it.

[Camera One]

I'm curious about the Netflix TV series based on the "A Series of Unfortunate Events" books, which had a lot of world-building and felt like it's own universe with the gothic style.  For me, the books started to go off the railings halfway through the series, but I'm still interested in how this new adaptation is going to be.

 

I'm also glad the Oz adaptation "Emerald City" has been resurrected, though it looks like they changed showrunner again in July.

[KingOfHearts]

I hope Emerald City isn't just an attempt to make a darker, grittier and more controversial Oz. (Tin Man already twisted it more than I'd care for.) I'm all for an adult look at it, but it shouldn't have to totally lose the source material's feel to do it. Tim Burton's Wonderland was dark and twisted, but it still felt like the same universe as the books to me.

Maybe I'm just once bitten twice shy from all the botched Oz adaptations over the years. (Not including the 1930s MGM film.)

[Camera One]

Um, yes they did, or at least Buffy did and that was all that mattered.  Season 7's biggest fault is that Buffy and Spike became Mary Sues who we're very clearly supposed to always agree with, sympathize with, and consider right, and every single character in opposition to them was portrayed as jerks or idiots.  Seasons 6 and 7 in general were filled with crappy writing.

 

I really hated Season 7 of "Buffy".  It's difficult to do, but they actually made Buffy insufferable and she was the main character.  I really hope OUAT never reaches those depths.  At least I still really like Emma.  It's sad A&E have pretty much destroyed Snow, Henry, and Rumple in different ways, and of course, there's Regina, but at least Emma is still relatively untouched in my books.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

Pity about that version of Queen Guinevere, though, she makes Sansa Stark look mature and likable.

 

Um, you mean like Sansa has been for a while now?  Seriously, "immature and unlikable" phase was seasons/books ago, get with the times!  (Actually, was she EVER that bad in the show?  At least compared to the original first book?)

 

It's sad A&E have pretty much destroyed Snow, Henry, and Rumple in different ways, and of course, there's Regina,

 

Charming's been destroyed too.  Emma's the only one of the Original 6 that is still decent, but that might change with this "Dark Swan" crap.

 

In other news, did anyone else catch Robbie Kay in Heroes Reborn tonight?  It was weird hearing him speak with an American accent, and hilarious to see his character be all about pacifism and not wanting to hurt anybody given the character we all know him best for.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

I do plan on watching it.  I'm interested how he'll be on that show.  Though "Heroes" was one of those shows that had the fastest drop in quality after the first season, even worse than OUAT, so I'm not expecting much.  Sylar became a Regina.  Another case where the writers fell in love with a villain and couldn't let them go, while the regular characters were ignored, written out, or destroyed, and minor characters unceremoniously killed off.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

Going back for a bit, I'm not generally one to defend Buffy s7, but Buffy being right about things and the others telling her she was wrong, wrong, wrong was kind of a running gag thru the whole series. Also it kinda went back to the end of s2 and the fight against Angelus when Spike tells Buffy "I'm all you've got." He was the only one she could stand to be around for most of s6. Just as Giles, Willow and Xander were free range aspects of Buffy (suggested by the joining spell in Primeval), so Spike represented her Inner Darkness, her Slayerness.

[Writing Wrongs]

Sleepy Hollow had a Yaoguai on their show tonight. Completely different from Once's version.

[Serena]

Going back for a bit, I'm not generally one to defend Buffy s7, but Buffy being right about things and the others telling her she was wrong, wrong, wrong was kind of a running gag thru the whole series.

OUAT does this with Emma too. Her lie detector goes off, and people go "What do you mean Tamara's shady? You must be jealous!" or "What do you mean Henry's acting weird? You're just jealous!", etc.

[Camera One]

Emma with Merlin in the movie theatre felt like a total ripoff of "Lost" with Jacob and Young Kate I think... was a candy bar involved there too?