BtVS in the Media

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I will never believe that Joss HAD to fire Charisma Carpenter or get rid of Cordelia. There are always options with regards to storylines, financing, etc. But the fact that he didn't even bother to tell her that she had been fired from the show speaks volumes about his professionalism (or lack thereof).

[VCRTracking]

Openly firing her wouldn't have played well in the media and she could have sued them.

My feeling is if Cordy had still been the character was from Buffy season 3 and Angel season 1 Joss would have loved using her. That snarky voice of reason who didn't care about hurting other people's feelings(hmm..) but she had matured beyond that under Greenwalt and Joss couldn't figure out what to do with her. That's why she was put in a coma and Spike was brought back to life and onto the show. He filled the role Cordy used to.

Joss is Liz Lemon in high school: Thinks they're the lovable nerd but was really the bully.

 

 

[Gigi43]

15 hours ago, secnarf said:

I saw a post from him about the "spine surgery" and then an article with his (non-)statement as it relates to CC's allegations. Then, reading the article you posted, I felt compelled to watch the video to confirm that the article itself wasn't fake news.

Barring a deep fake video...not fake news. But wow.

 

Oh I thought it was fake at first too. I only saw a screen shot of the penis/anus part from an article but the site wasn't even in the screenshot and I thought maybe people were trolling him for not speaking and made it up but I always double check and low and behold it's all too real.

 

15 hours ago, steelyis said:

To be fair if everyone wasn't pressing every major cast member to come out and give a comment, then no one would be interested in NB right now. I mean, people are really on him to say something regardless of his condition, so I feel like it's his right to, ahem, let it all hang out right now.

Not gonna lie: I could have lived my whole life not knowing what his surgery was for.

 

That is fair. I kinda wonder if he'll regret it, maybe he was on meds that made him run his mouth, or he just DGAF and wouldda put it out there anyway. He did do Dr. Phil (never a good idea) twice. 

 

Anyway, Nick has said something else (if you track down the video there's a lot of singing and then he talks about it at the very end so I'm linking an article. Apparently I'm always 2-3 days behind on his stuff) and this may be the first time I've seen anyone say they know CC's story, unless he means that he's aware because he read it, I'll quote the part about her and link. Hopefully by now he knows whether he has to piss or shit.

 

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/buffys-nicholas-brendon-isnt-ready-to-comment-on-joss-whedon/

 

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“I just hope that growth comes, and healing [comes] and him being a better person … because I think that’s what every day is about. You know what I mean? Not beating somebody up,” the Criminal Minds alum continued. “I mean, were there transgressions? Yeah, there were. To me as well … I had my relationship with Joss as well. And I love him. … I mean, for me, I took the good, I took the bad. But that’s not everybody. … I love and support [Charisma] very much and I know that story, and it’s not a kind story.”

 

Moving on from Nick...

There's a double standard going on, on Twitter of people saying David should have saved Charisma's job or spoken out earlier, but I'm not seeing anyone make the case that SMG should have sounded the alarms that Joss couldn't be alone with teenage Michelle. We have no idea what either of them tried to do or how much they knew at the time and I don't think either should be accused of being complicit but one is. Joss let CC find out via the press, David may not have known until then either. Maybe they all thought the new season would start with W&H waking her up when they filmed "Home." Charisma saying David supports her IRL, 'especially since Weds' to me implies he'd given her support before Wed, too. SMG begged Joss to not kill Joyce/get rid of KS and we know how that went, I doubt Joss would listen to him.  Anyone can make a statement on twitter and a lot are copying SMG's format and you don't know if some people maybe just are at this point to not get harassed or look but I take stock in private support which it seems J. August and David have been doing. 

 

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It's not like he was telling her to do it, he just needed to know because the show and the jobs of hundreds of employees depended on her answer.

 

Why would she be telling him if she wasn't going to keep it? He wasn't the father or her close friend/family member a woman would confide in if she was feeling conflicted. You don't go to your boss to say you're pregnant but not keeping it. Jobs didn't depend on the answer. The only job lost because she had her baby was her own. More jobs were lost on Firefly and Joss hired as many people as he could from there on Buffy/Angel. Was Jasmine part of the plan or did he want to give Gina a job and create it on the fly? Same for Caleb/NF.  

Edited February 17, 2021 by Gigi43

[Delphi]

I really,  really,  really (can't emphasize enough) don't think Caleb or Jasmine were part of the grand plan.   I think his show got cancelled and he was upset that he lost some of his toys so he got them in, Jasmine was done with more nuance granted but they really felt thrown in as characters. 

[Gigi43]

1 hour ago, Delphi said:

I really,  really,  really (can't emphasize enough) don't think Caleb or Jasmine were part of the grand plan.   I think his show got cancelled and he was upset that he lost some of his toys so he got them in, Jasmine was done with more nuance granted but they really felt thrown in as characters. 

Yeah I don't think they were either but I didn't want to state is as fact if it there's evidence anywhere I was wrong. Joss has admitted the amulet was rushed/last minute,  which... no kidding.  

Edited February 17, 2021 by Gigi43

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, roctavia said:

Maybe he should have written a better season 3-4 if he wanted good ratings for season 5... The conner aged up storyline and then the possessed cordy/beast storyline were trash. You can't blame that on a pregnancy.... They didn't have to write it in... considering shows have been easily working around pregnancies for what, 40 years? If he's such an amazing writer, it should have been easy. There are stunt/body doubles for reasons... 

Contract negotiations are one thing, but retaliatory firing is not okay, even if they waited to make it look like it wasn't because she got pregnant or got a tattoo... a tattoo that would take 4 seconds to cover up... or even could make sense in the story like Buffy's cross necklace.... 

Joss Whedon is a dick, it doesn't mean he needs to be arrested or in jail... but it does mean people can choose not to watch his stuff or work for him... especially if this all coming public means he no longer has the power to blacklist people for doing something he didn't like. 

I think he did and CC kinda ruined it? 

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

 

Oh I thought it was fake at first too. I only saw a screen shot of the penis/anus part from an article but the site wasn't even in the screenshot and I thought maybe people were trolling him for not speaking and made it up but I always double check and low and behold it's all too real.

 

 

That is fair. I kinda wonder if he'll regret it, maybe he was on meds that made him run his mouth, or he just DGAF and wouldda put it out there anyway. He did do Dr. Phil (never a good idea) twice. 

 

Anyway, Nick has said something else (if you track down the video there's a lot of singing and then he talks about it at the very end so I'm linking an article. Apparently I'm always 2-3 days behind on his stuff) and this may be the first time I've seen anyone say they know CC's story, unless he means that he's aware because he read it, I'll quote the part about her and link. Hopefully by now he knows whether he has to piss or shit.

 

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/buffys-nicholas-brendon-isnt-ready-to-comment-on-joss-whedon/

 

 

Moving on from Nick...

There's a double standard going on, on Twitter of people saying David should have saved Charisma's job or spoken out earlier, but I'm not seeing anyone make the case that SMG should have sounded the alarms that Joss couldn't be alone with teenage Michelle. We have no idea what either of them tried to do or how much they knew at the time and I don't think either should be accused of being complicit but one is. Joss let CC find out via the press, David may not have known until then either. Maybe they all thought the new season would start with W&H waking her up when they filmed "Home." Charisma saying David supports her IRL, 'especially since Weds' to me implies he'd given her support before Wed, too. SMG begged Joss to not kill Joyce/get rid of KS and we know how that went, I doubt Joss would listen to him.  Anyone can make a statement on twitter and a lot are copying SMG's format and you don't know if some people maybe just are at this point to not get harassed or look but I take stock in private support which it seems J. August and David have been doing. 

 

 

Why would she be telling him if she wasn't going to keep it? He wasn't the father or her close friend/family member a woman would confide in if she was feeling conflicted. You don't go to your boss to say you're pregnant but not keeping it. Jobs didn't depend on the answer. The only job lost because she had her baby was her own. More jobs were lost on Firefly and Joss hired as many people as he could from there on Buffy/Angel. Was Jasmine part of the plan or did he want to give Gina a job and create it on the fly? Same for Caleb/NF.  

I know MT/SMG campaigned to keep KS on the show because everyone loved her but that wasn't their call to make. Be aware Angel was struggling at that point and renewal was not guaranteed, hence the happy Connor ending, so that if it wasn't renewed that would be the ending. 

16 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Openly firing her wouldn't have played well in the media and she could have sued them.

My feeling is if Cordy had still been the character was from Buffy season 3 and Angel season 1 Joss would have loved using her. That snarky voice of reason who didn't care about hurting other people's feelings(hmm..) but she had matured beyond that under Greenwalt and Joss couldn't figure out what to do with her. That's why she was put in a coma and Spike was brought back to life and onto the show. He filled the role Cordy used to.

Joss is Liz Lemon in high school: Thinks they're the lovable nerd but was really the bully.

 

 

I did think of that I must say. So many sparrows! 

17 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I will never believe that Joss HAD to fire Charisma Carpenter or get rid of Cordelia. There are always options with regards to storylines, financing, etc. But the fact that he didn't even bother to tell her that she had been fired from the show speaks volumes about his professionalism (or lack thereof).

Could she have taken off with the Groo? It's hard to see how CC would have fitted in during season 5, they didn't need a seer any more. When it happened the word was she left because there was nowhere else for her character to go but that seemed to be just a cover story to help her career, much like GQ's exit. 

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, roctavia said:

Here is what he said : Without going into specifics, Prinze hints that the later seasons of "Buffy" may have been rough for his bride.

"A lot of people owe Sarah a lot for doing that show," Prinze says, "and she doesn't always get the credit she deserves. She's a very strong woman, because she deals with a lot of nonsense, and instead of that nonsense, she should be thanked -- and she's not. That's the reason she won't be coming back."

"Sarah's the most appreciative person in the world, and if that environment would have remained the way it would six years ago, she would go back, because she's loyal. But things change, and people's egos get in the way sometimes. They make poor decisions."

"I don't agree with it, but I understand it, and I just pray I'm never guilty of it."

Prinze asserts that, whatever happened, Gellar gave 100 percent. "And even if she's not, nobody knew, because she commits. She's badass."

 

That doesn't sound like just the grueling hours to me... it makes sense with what Joss's ex-wife said in her essay a few years back... He started off as a humble dude who wanted to make good TV, but quickly as he found success he turned into a not so nice person-ie egos getting in the way.  Cheating on his wife because he could and it made him feel powerful...  I do wonder what happened to the women who said no to his advances once he got in the habit of "young women throw themselves at me"

There is a report from James Marsters a few years ago where he talks about Joss throwing him up against a wall and yelling at him because Spike was more popular than he was supposed to be.... That's not a healthy working environment. 

 

There were stories SMG could be tricky on set, telling one director "You're not the boss of me" (apparently as a joke) and that her nickname was 'The Duchess', Tim Minear in S&V just puts it down to her being so tired not to mention hurting herself occasionally, including broken bones. She was also a stickler for onset safety after an accident in 'Go Fish'.   

I hardly find it surprising that Joss having been a guy who was hardly a ladies man gave in to temptation after finding himself surrounded by a cast who regularly dominated FHM's Hot 100 who kept telling him how wonderful he was. Remember he had fallen out with people on set before with the original Buffy movie and Alien Resurrection (and was probably in the right both times). 

Do you have the exact story of Joss/JM?

16 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

 

Oh I thought it was fake at first too. I only saw a screen shot of the penis/anus part from an article but the site wasn't even in the screenshot and I thought maybe people were trolling him for not speaking and made it up but I always double check and low and behold it's all too real.

 

 

That is fair. I kinda wonder if he'll regret it, maybe he was on meds that made him run his mouth, or he just DGAF and wouldda put it out there anyway. He did do Dr. Phil (never a good idea) twice. 

 

Anyway, Nick has said something else (if you track down the video there's a lot of singing and then he talks about it at the very end so I'm linking an article. Apparently I'm always 2-3 days behind on his stuff) and this may be the first time I've seen anyone say they know CC's story, unless he means that he's aware because he read it, I'll quote the part about her and link. Hopefully by now he knows whether he has to piss or shit.

 

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/buffys-nicholas-brendon-isnt-ready-to-comment-on-joss-whedon/

 

 

Moving on from Nick...

There's a double standard going on, on Twitter of people saying David should have saved Charisma's job or spoken out earlier, but I'm not seeing anyone make the case that SMG should have sounded the alarms that Joss couldn't be alone with teenage Michelle. We have no idea what either of them tried to do or how much they knew at the time and I don't think either should be accused of being complicit but one is. Joss let CC find out via the press, David may not have known until then either. Maybe they all thought the new season would start with W&H waking her up when they filmed "Home." Charisma saying David supports her IRL, 'especially since Weds' to me implies he'd given her support before Wed, too. SMG begged Joss to not kill Joyce/get rid of KS and we know how that went, I doubt Joss would listen to him.  Anyone can make a statement on twitter and a lot are copying SMG's format and you don't know if some people maybe just are at this point to not get harassed or look but I take stock in private support which it seems J. August and David have been doing. 

 

 

Why would she be telling him if she wasn't going to keep it? He wasn't the father or her close friend/family member a woman would confide in if she was feeling conflicted. You don't go to your boss to say you're pregnant but not keeping it. Jobs didn't depend on the answer. The only job lost because she had her baby was her own. More jobs were lost on Firefly and Joss hired as many people as he could from there on Buffy/Angel. Was Jasmine part of the plan or did he want to give Gina a job and create it on the fly? Same for Caleb/NF.  

You can't blame him when she blindsided him? I actually consider them to have been very accommodating towards CC, they let her take off for 3 eps and for about 6 eps come in and lie down for 10 minutes and still paid her $50,000 a time.  

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yes, really.

Given the fact that she had a previous miscarriage or two before - which he knew about - him asking if she wanted to abort the baby was just pure rudeness and rather disgusting.

I think people are missing the obvious that he could have done all of that without acting like a complete and utter hamster prick. And people are also missing that others who worked with him, like Ray Fisher, Amber Benson, have pointed out how much of a toxic work environment were on his sets. The fact that Amber, who only joined the cast AFTER CC left to go work on Angel, mentions how toxic things were just shows how Joss Whedon enabling a toxic work environment has nothing to do with CC or him trying to save his show or whatever.

Are we really going to start comparing pregnant women to drug addicts now?

No but was she trying to get pregnant? 

[Hiyo]

Quote

I think he did and CC kinda ruined it? 

I'd say Joss ruined it all on his own.

Quote

I know MT/SMG campaigned to keep KS on the show because everyone loved her but that wasn't their call to make. Be aware Angel was struggling at that point and renewal was not guaranteed, hence the happy Connor ending, so that if it wasn't renewed that would be the ending. 

Not sure how there is a correlation between the two, since KS left Buffy while Angel season 2 was airing, and Connor doesn't get his happy ending until season 4. Heck, adult Connor doesn't appear until season 3 of Angel...

Quote

Could she have taken off with the Groo? It's hard to see how CC would have fitted in during season 5, they didn't need a seer any more.

If nothing else, that could have been a better ending for her, but a bit hard since she realized Angel was the one she really loved.

Also, she didn't need to be a seer to have fit in Angel season 5.

Quote

When it happened the word was she left because there was nowhere else for her character to go but that seemed to be just a cover story to help her career

If anything, it looks like a cover story for Joss & Co. to avoid blowback for firing his employee for getting pregnant.

Quote

I hardly find it surprising that Joss having been a guy who was hardly a ladies man gave in to temptation after finding himself surrounded by a cast who regularly dominated FHM's Hot 100 who kept telling him how wonderful he was.

That is not, nor has ever been, a valid excuse. A guy who was hardly a ladies man + finding himself surrounded by attractive women = excuses/validates/allows him to be a misogynistic douche-nozzle? No. Just...no.

Quote

Remember he had fallen out with people on set before with the original Buffy movie and Alien Resurrection (and was probably in the right both times). 

Given that he seems to have a falling out with a good majority of the people he works with...maybe the problem isn't everybody else, maybe the problem is...Joss himself?

Quote

You can't blame him when she blindsided him? I actually consider them to have been very accommodating towards CC, they let her take off for 3 eps and for about 6 eps come in and lie down for 10 minutes and still paid her $50,000 a time.  

Sidelining her character wasn't accommodating, that was punishing her. Believe it or not, lots of people like working hard for their money, even some of those pesky womenz.

Quote

No but was she trying to get pregnant? 

Whether she was or she wasn't, that it is completely irrelevant to how she was treated.

[shantown]

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

There were stories SMG could be tricky on set, telling one director "You're not the boss of me" (apparently as a joke) and that her nickname was 'The Duchess', Tim Minear in S&V just puts it down to her being so tired not to mention hurting herself occasionally, including broken bones. She was also a stickler for onset safety after an accident in 'Go Fish'.   

 

I don't know why SMG being a stickler about on-set safety is being framed as a negative trait here. 
 

Quote

I hardly find it surprising that Joss having been a guy who was hardly a ladies man gave in to temptation after finding himself surrounded by a cast who regularly dominated FHM's Hot 100 who kept telling him how wonderful he was. Remember he had fallen out with people on set before with the original Buffy movie and Alien Resurrection (and was probably in the right both times). 

So Joss had troubles during the original Buffy movie, Alien Resurrection, Buffy, Angel, Wonder Woman, Justice League... Hmmmm sounds like the problem is continually him. Also this insinuation that he couldn't keep it pants, and it's everyone else's fault for being attractive. Sounds like a real creep!

[cleo]

NB's statement just made me feel kind of sad bc he has so many personal struggles and still seems like a guy that needs help. I didn't particularly need or want him to say anything.....I just mean this idea that all the cast have to have some kind of comment for the sake of it. I just feel like with him, any time he is in the public eye there is a certain segment of the population that reacts cruelly. And it was a non statement and all I got was this guy still doesn't seem terribly ok. 

Anyway I don't know how he is doing or if he has stopped drinking but I hope he is doing better.

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, cleo said:

NB's statement just made me feel kind of sad bc he has so many personal struggles and still seems like a guy that needs help. I didn't particularly need or want him to say anything.....I just mean this idea that all the cast have to have some kind of comment for the sake of it. I just feel like with him, any time he is in the public eye there is a certain segment of the population that reacts cruelly. And it was a non statement and all I got was this guy still doesn't seem terribly ok. 

Anyway I don't know how he is doing or if he has stopped drinking but I hope he is doing better.

He is, both he and ED sober for years and he's working consistently (she isn't but maybe she's enjoying married life?)

12 hours ago, shantown said:

I don't know why SMG being a stickler about on-set safety is being framed as a negative trait here. 
 

So Joss had troubles during the original Buffy movie, Alien Resurrection, Buffy, Angel, Wonder Woman, Justice League... Hmmmm sounds like the problem is continually him. Also this insinuation that he couldn't keep it pants, and it's everyone else's fault for being attractive. Sounds like a real creep!

It's not but apparently it would infuriate some directors. Joss isn't the only writer to struggle with cast/director/producers etc, that seems to come with the territory nor is he the first to have affairs on set, hardly makes him a 'creep'?

[Hiyo]

Having affairs isn’t necessarily what makes him a creep, its all of the other stuff that has come out that has been listed above here and elsewhere that makes him one.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, Hiyo said:

I'd say Joss ruined it all on his own.

Not sure how there is a correlation between the two, since KS left Buffy while Angel season 2 was airing, and Connor doesn't get his happy ending until season 4. Heck, adult Connor doesn't appear until season 3 of Angel...

If nothing else, that could have been a better ending for her, but a bit hard since she realized Angel was the one she really loved.

Also, she didn't need to be a seer to have fit in Angel season 5.

If anything, it looks like a cover story for Joss & Co. to avoid blowback for firing his employee for getting pregnant.

That is not, nor has ever been, a valid excuse. A guy who was hardly a ladies man + finding himself surrounded by attractive women = excuses/validates/allows him to be a misogynistic douche-nozzle? No. Just...no.

Given that he seems to have a falling out with a good majority of the people he works with...maybe the problem isn't everybody else, maybe the problem is...Joss himself?

Sidelining her character wasn't accommodating, that was punishing her. Believe it or not, lots of people like working hard for their money, even some of those pesky womenz.

Whether she was or she wasn't, that it is completely irrelevant to how she was treated.

My point was it broke everyone's heart to lose KS (as it did RL) but that doesn't mean it was wrong story wise. It's better for CC than saying she was 'difficult'? They did the same thing with Glenn Quinn, saying they fired him for being a drug addict would have made him unemployable so they came up with the story that they always intended to kill Doyle off. Womaniser or just sap who got seduced by goldiggers does not equal misogynistic douche nozzle? Given all the people he's worked with over the years actually very few have complained about him, largely just the Buffy folks and seems to be confined to that period he was trying to run three shows at once (even in the DVD commentaries he talks of having a "low burning rage". What else exactly could he do with her in season 4? Paying her hundreds of thousands of dollars for not doing anything or having her show up and lie down for an hour is hardly punishment?

It is not irrelevant if she meant to get pregnant, if she did she must have been aware of the impact on the show, not to mention getting religious tatts when she was on a show where her love interest was a vampire.  

Just now, Hiyo said:

Having affairs isn’t necessarily what makes him a creep, its all of the other stuff that has come out that has been listed above here and elsewhere that makes him one.

And I'm still waiting to have that clarified as exactly what?

[Hiyo]

“My point was it broke everyone's heart to lose KS (as it did RL) but that doesn't mean it was wrong story wise. It's better for CC than saying she was 'difficult'? They did the same thing with Glenn Quinn, saying they fired him for being a drug addict would have made him unemployable so they came up with the story that they always intended to kill Doyle off.”

With KS it seems storyline dictated. With GQ the guy had actual problems that could seriously affect the show if he didn’t get treatments. In CC’s case it wasn’t storyline dictated, it seems, or she had some type of problem, she was pregnant. And he seemed to punish her for that.

“Womaniser or just sap who got seduced by goldiggers does not equal misogynistic douche nozzle?”

Assuming he was a sap who was seduced by goldiggers is a problematic way to look at this, as you have no idea what the relationship between him and the women he had affairs is was based on. And also not the best way to try and deflect the conversation away from what Joss actually did to his actors on set.

“Given all the people he's worked with over the years actually very few have complained about him, largely just the Buffy folks and seems to be confined to that period he was trying to run three shows at once”

Its become a lot more than a few people, and it now includes at least 2 people from the Justice League movie too, which happened a few years ago.

Once again, running 3 shows is not and never has been a valid excuse for acting like an asshole, especially since there were other showrunners, writers, and directors probably helpd take some of the load off of him.

“What else exactly could he do with her in season 4? Paying her hundreds of thousands of dollars for not doing anything or having her show up and lie down for an hour is hardly punishment?”

Maybe not put her in a coma and have her character try and deal with everything she had done under Jasmine’s control? Help Angel and co. fight to free everyone from Jasmine’s control? Confront Jasmine for how Jasmine used her to enter reality? Just a start...

“It is not irrelevant if she meant to get pregnant, if she did she must have been aware of the impact on the show, not to mention getting religious tatts when she was on a show where her love interest was a vampire.”

Women are allowed to get pregnant, whether by choice or not, and not suffer for that by being mistreated by their employers. Even actors. A truly professional showrunner would have adapted to that, and many in the past have done so as well.

Also, tattoos can and have been covered up in the past as well. It called make-up, wearing long sleeve clothing, filming from creative angles as well. 

[kieyra]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

not to mention getting religious tatts when she was on a show where her love interest was a vampire.  

I'm thinking the same makeup department that created Lorne could probably handle applying a little dermablend to her wrist. 

[roctavia]

9 hours ago, kieyra said:

I'm thinking the same makeup department that created Lorne could probably handle applying a little dermablend to her wrist. 

Or just give her a bracelet or something.... using her tattoo as an excuse for something else CC did wrong is just making excuses. If it was that big of a deal, I'm sure CC could have even covered up herself...  They cover tattoos, scars, blemishes all the time...

[Meushell]

I haven’t been following up on Joss, so I admit, while he lost me with some of his arrogance, that he cheated on his wife took me by surprise only a few days ago. That he blamed the woman (or women) he slept with was gross. 

Now this.

That he made the work place toxic is just disgusting. Michelle’s comment that they could not be alone...again... Ick.

That being said, I don’t want everyone feeling like they have to comment. NB’s statement feels forced and unnecessary. I don’t blame him. I blame the pressure put on him. The same goes for if Michelle wants to clarify or not. Even if it wasn’t sexual, there is no good answer, so she should share exactly what she wants to share.

[Gigi43]

4 hours ago, Meushell said:

 

That being said, I don’t want everyone feeling like they have to comment. NB’s statement feels forced and unnecessary. I don’t blame him. I blame the pressure put on him. The same goes for if Michelle wants to clarify or not. Even if it wasn’t sexual, there is no good answer, so she should share exactly what she wants to share.

 

I actually thought Nick's statement was okay but the fact that he probably felt pressure, when the first comment about 'let me get spine surgery my anus and penis are paralyzed' the media framed it as 'he refused to comment' wasn't okay. They could have just said he will address it later after his surgery. People have their own shit to do and he didn't want to do a standard comment that everyone else posted because it was more complex to him. I know some people didn't believe he was getting surgery when his girlfriend posted it online, then he did the first video and then second video he did in the hospital. Celebrities have medical struggles too and Nick has many struggles, he was dealing with something major.  

 

But both he and DB were dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. People wanted them to comment then when they did I saw people being all "these are the last men we need to hear from" and retweeting old news articles about NB's arrests and a lot of retweets to DB/CC's exchange linking his court settlement and the cheating on his wife story to the point DB turned off retweets again (then people make a big deal of him locking the ability to retweet--- he has a right to not want that RT'd his son is probably old enough to be on SM now to see it.)  But had they kept quiet they would have been accused of condoning Joss. 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Gigi43

[Delphi]

Honestly,  I'm not very surprised at Nick's non statement.   Harry Lenix just had an interview where he said he never experienced anything like that working with joss but admitted that he's a burly black guy from shy town and people know better in how to come at him.   If you're an aggressor you target someone not in a position to stand up for themselves,  someone not powerful or in a position to beat your face in.   Nick had white boi privilege all over him before the end of BtVS.

[Gigi43]

2 hours ago, Delphi said:

Honestly,  I'm not very surprised at Nick's non statement.   Harry Lenix just had an interview where he said he never experienced anything like that working with joss but admitted that he's a burly black guy from shy town and people know better in how to come at him.   If you're an aggressor you target someone not in a position to stand up for themselves,  someone not powerful or in a position to beat your face in.   Nick had white boi privilege all over him before the end of BtVS.

 

Or if Joss just likes you better. Amy Acker made it a point to say she had a good and professional experience on Angel then said she was sad to hear of anyone made to feel uncomfortable or hurt. She mentioned no names. Imo Nick's statement was more of a statement than Amy's. He mentioned CC and Joss by name. Nick has had issues with Joss but I think coming from a place in his own life where he's had to ask forgiveness from people and all it probably makes him want to give others forgiveness. I've never been clear on if Nick's addictions happened during BtVS or after. People can say or not say whatever they want but if Nick, David or James or really any of the guys put it the way Amy did it would be a big deal accusing them of minimizing and covering but Amy slipped under the radar. CC didn't reply but then again she wasn't named or tagged. 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Gigi43

[roctavia]

2 hours ago, Delphi said:

Honestly,  I'm not very surprised at Nick's non statement.   Harry Lenix just had an interview where he said he never experienced anything like that working with joss but admitted that he's a burly black guy from shy town and people know better in how to come at him.   If you're an aggressor you target someone not in a position to stand up for themselves,  someone not powerful or in a position to beat your face in.   Nick had white boi privilege all over him before the end of BtVS.

NB's statement also talks about how he took the good with the bad, so even if things weren't necessarily professional or always positive, he thought the bad stuff was worth the good... (assuming that's what he meant by "bad") which he wasn't a super well known or experienced actor when the show first started, and Joss was the guy in charge... I can see going along with whatever and thinking it's just regular how things work or ribbing the actors or whatever....   But I do wonder if the experiences on Buffy contributed to some of his addiction issues...

[steelyis]

7 hours ago, Delphi said:

Honestly,  I'm not very surprised at Nick's non statement.   Harry Lenix just had an interview where he said he never experienced anything like that working with joss but admitted that he's a burly black guy from shy town and people know better in how to come at him.   If you're an aggressor you target someone not in a position to stand up for themselves,  someone not powerful or in a position to beat your face in.   Nick had white boi privilege all over him before the end of BtVS.

NB, going by his past statements and interviews, didn't seem to have much privilege, or power of any kind BTS. Maybe he had it everywhere else, but he was no one's favorite BTS of BtVS. NB didn't seem to have much of a voice when it came to his character's development, or appearance, either. He was literally told to stop working out because Xander wasn't supposed to be in shape for some reason--it was a weird and intrusive thing to ask of any actor.

4 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

 

Or if Joss just likes you better. Amy Acker made it a point to say she had a good and professional experience on Angel then said she was sad to hear of anyone made to feel uncomfortable or hurt. She mentioned no names. Imo Nick's statement was more of a statement than Amy's. He mentioned CC and Joss by name. Nick has had issues with Joss but I think coming from a place in his own life where he's had to ask forgiveness from people and all it probably makes him want to give others forgiveness. I've never been clear on if Nick's addictions happened during BtVS or after. People can say or not say whatever they want but if Nick, David or James or really any of the guys put it the way Amy did it would be a big deal accusing them of minimizing and covering but Amy slipped under the radar. CC didn't reply but then again she wasn't named or tagged. 

I remember watching a BTS recording of NB doing voice over for Chaos Bleeds, and Nick was either drunk or hungover, and it was obvious it was one of them.

The memory is kind embarrassing to me, because it was the only time I ever found NB attractive, and he was a mess.

4 hours ago, roctavia said:

NB's statement also talks about how he took the good with the bad, so even if things weren't necessarily professional or always positive, he thought the bad stuff was worth the good... (assuming that's what he meant by "bad") which he wasn't a super well known or experienced actor when the show first started, and Joss was the guy in charge... I can see going along with whatever and thinking it's just regular how things work or ribbing the actors or whatever....   But I do wonder if the experiences on Buffy contributed to some of his addiction issues...

He was complete newb, so I can totally see him not knowing how the business worked the way someone like Seth Green did.

As for his experience on the show contributing to his alcohol abuse? I don't think it helped.

Edited February 20, 2021 by steelyis

[lembergwatcher]

Amy Acker is a truly diplomatic person, I'd say. Showing support but not naming names. 

Whether this is just a tact or a desire to "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds" - you decide:
https://screenrant.com/angel-amy-acker-charisma-carpenter-joss-whedon-accusations-response/

Someone has to make a movie about JW. It appears things BTS were no less interesting than all the Buffy/Angel melodrama:

"Aside from Pruitt’s conflicts with Whedon, their departure was allegedly also due to Whedon wanting Crawford to break up with Pruitt":

https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2550087/former-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-stuntperson-claims-joss-whedon-is-an-egomaniac-and-cost-him-jobs

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/19/2021 at 2:26 PM, kieyra said:

I'm thinking the same makeup department that created Lorne could probably handle applying a little dermablend to her wrist. 

Quite true but it was perhaps indicative of her attitude? It was at very least inconsiderate. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/19/2021 at 8:05 AM, Hiyo said:

“My point was it broke everyone's heart to lose KS (as it did RL) but that doesn't mean it was wrong story wise. It's better for CC than saying she was 'difficult'? They did the same thing with Glenn Quinn, saying they fired him for being a drug addict would have made him unemployable so they came up with the story that they always intended to kill Doyle off.”

With KS it seems storyline dictated. With GQ the guy had actual problems that could seriously affect the show if he didn’t get treatments. In CC’s case it wasn’t storyline dictated, it seems, or she had some type of problem, she was pregnant. And he seemed to punish her for that.

“Womaniser or just sap who got seduced by goldiggers does not equal misogynistic douche nozzle?”

Assuming he was a sap who was seduced by goldiggers is a problematic way to look at this, as you have no idea what the relationship between him and the women he had affairs is was based on. And also not the best way to try and deflect the conversation away from what Joss actually did to his actors on set.

“Given all the people he's worked with over the years actually very few have complained about him, largely just the Buffy folks and seems to be confined to that period he was trying to run three shows at once”

Its become a lot more than a few people, and it now includes at least 2 people from the Justice League movie too, which happened a few years ago.

Once again, running 3 shows is not and never has been a valid excuse for acting like an asshole, especially since there were other showrunners, writers, and directors probably helpd take some of the load off of him.

“What else exactly could he do with her in season 4? Paying her hundreds of thousands of dollars for not doing anything or having her show up and lie down for an hour is hardly punishment?”

Maybe not put her in a coma and have her character try and deal with everything she had done under Jasmine’s control? Help Angel and co. fight to free everyone from Jasmine’s control? Confront Jasmine for how Jasmine used her to enter reality? Just a start...

“It is not irrelevant if she meant to get pregnant, if she did she must have been aware of the impact on the show, not to mention getting religious tatts when she was on a show where her love interest was a vampire.”

Women are allowed to get pregnant, whether by choice or not, and not suffer for that by being mistreated by their employers. Even actors. A truly professional showrunner would have adapted to that, and many in the past have done so as well.

Also, tattoos can and have been covered up in the past as well. It called make-up, wearing long sleeve clothing, filming from creative angles as well. 

I have empathy with both sides but it is misandrist hypocrisy simply to condemn Joss out of hand. 

20 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Amy Acker is a truly diplomatic person, I'd say. Showing support but not naming names. 

Whether this is just a tact or a desire to "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds" - you decide:
https://screenrant.com/angel-amy-acker-charisma-carpenter-joss-whedon-accusations-response/

Someone has to make a movie about JW. It appears things BTS were no less interesting than all the Buffy/Angel melodrama:

"Aside from Pruitt’s conflicts with Whedon, their departure was allegedly also due to Whedon wanting Crawford to break up with Pruitt":

https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2550087/former-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-stuntperson-claims-joss-whedon-is-an-egomaniac-and-cost-him-jobs

Yes, very tactful indeed. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

it is misandrist hypocrisy simply to condemn Joss out of hand. 

No, it isn't.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/20/2021 at 7:53 AM, Meushell said:

I haven’t been following up on Joss, so I admit, while he lost me with some of his arrogance, that he cheated on his wife took me by surprise only a few days ago. That he blamed the woman (or women) he slept with was gross. 

Now this.

That he made the work place toxic is just disgusting. Michelle’s comment that they could not be alone...again... Ick.

That being said, I don’t want everyone feeling like they have to comment. NB’s statement feels forced and unnecessary. I don’t blame him. I blame the pressure put on him. The same goes for if Michelle wants to clarify or not. Even if it wasn’t sexual, there is no good answer, so she should share exactly what she wants to share.

Well you have to partly blame the women, it takes 2 to tango and these girls knew his wife, had been to script readings at his house etc. DB did the same thing and he was married to a Playmate (who plays the Fell Brethren's breeding surrogate in the final few eps). But it is right to demand clarification from MT, the subtext of her remarks is devastating but they're so ambiguous we don't really know what they mean? Does she mean it was because of his temper or that people were afraid she would also have an affair with him as she came of age? I notice that none of the other people who've made statements, even those who criticized Joss have backed up her assertion 

6 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

No, it isn't.

Yes it is guilt by accusation. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/20/2021 at 12:39 PM, Gigi43 said:

 

I actually thought Nick's statement was okay but the fact that he probably felt pressure, when the first comment about 'let me get spine surgery my anus and penis are paralyzed' the media framed it as 'he refused to comment' wasn't okay. They could have just said he will address it later after his surgery. People have their own shit to do and he didn't want to do a standard comment that everyone else posted because it was more complex to him. I know some people didn't believe he was getting surgery when his girlfriend posted it online, then he did the first video and then second video he did in the hospital. Celebrities have medical struggles too and Nick has many struggles, he was dealing with something major.  

 

But both he and DB were dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. People wanted them to comment then when they did I saw people being all "these are the last men we need to hear from" and retweeting old news articles about NB's arrests and a lot of retweets to DB/CC's exchange linking his court settlement and the cheating on his wife story to the point DB turned off retweets again (then people make a big deal of him locking the ability to retweet--- he has a right to not want that RT'd his son is probably old enough to be on SM now to see it.)  But had they kept quiet they would have been accused of condoning Joss. 

 

Absolutely! I've said before this reminds me of Empty Places but it's now beginning to resemble Marvel's civil war. 

On 2/20/2021 at 4:22 PM, Delphi said:

Honestly,  I'm not very surprised at Nick's non statement.   Harry Lenix just had an interview where he said he never experienced anything like that working with joss but admitted that he's a burly black guy from shy town and people know better in how to come at him.   If you're an aggressor you target someone not in a position to stand up for themselves,  someone not powerful or in a position to beat your face in.   Nick had white boi privilege all over him before the end of BtVS.

Oh surely not! "White boi privilege"? What the HELL does that mean? No one in the Dollhouse cast seems to be complaining (or Firefly?) but again, I think if Joss had a temper it was probably from overstretching himself at one stage, 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Well you have to partly blame the women, it takes 2 to tango and these girls knew his wife, had been to script readings at his house etc.

True, but they didn't have as much power BTS as he did.

Quote

I notice that none of the other people who've made statements, even those who criticized Joss have backed up her assertion 

Possibly out of respect for MT, who knows.

Quote

Yes it is guilt by accusation. 

Which isn't the definition of misandry. You can apply "guilt by accusation" to women as well.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/20/2021 at 6:51 PM, Gigi43 said:

 

Or if Joss just likes you better. Amy Acker made it a point to say she had a good and professional experience on Angel then said she was sad to hear of anyone made to feel uncomfortable or hurt. She mentioned no names. Imo Nick's statement was more of a statement than Amy's. He mentioned CC and Joss by name. Nick has had issues with Joss but I think coming from a place in his own life where he's had to ask forgiveness from people and all it probably makes him want to give others forgiveness. I've never been clear on if Nick's addictions happened during BtVS or after. People can say or not say whatever they want but if Nick, David or James or really any of the guys put it the way Amy did it would be a big deal accusing them of minimizing and covering but Amy slipped under the radar. CC didn't reply but then again she wasn't named or tagged. 

That's a good way to put it and I think DB may be in the same boat. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

No one in the Dollhouse cast seems to be complaining

Besides the star of that show.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/20/2021 at 7:19 PM, roctavia said:

NB's statement also talks about how he took the good with the bad, so even if things weren't necessarily professional or always positive, he thought the bad stuff was worth the good... (assuming that's what he meant by "bad") which he wasn't a super well known or experienced actor when the show first started, and Joss was the guy in charge... I can see going along with whatever and thinking it's just regular how things work or ribbing the actors or whatever....   But I do wonder if the experiences on Buffy contributed to some of his addiction issues...

And that's a good way to put it, fair to all. Famously Joss had drinks parties at his house to let the cast get to know one another and it would be ironic if that was were it all started for him. But both he and ED were sexually abused as kids and their addictions are classic reactions to that, it just seems that unlike GQ they were able to keep it under control and not let it affect their work.  

Just now, Hiyo said:

Besides the star of that show.

But that was about her time on Buffy/Angel? And I'm cynical that if he was such a monster why did she join him for a new show?

[Hiyo]

Quote

No one in the Dollhouse cast seems to be complaining (or Firefly?)

Then again, none of them are really defending him either. So it's hard to say exactly how they feel or don't feel about the issue until they actually comment on it.

[Joe Hellandback]

5 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

True, but they didn't have as much power BTS as he did.

Possibly out of respect for MT, who knows.

Which isn't the definition of misandry. You can apply "guilt by accusation" to women as well.

They had ALL the power, they were some of the most beautiful women alive! If they respect MT surely they would support her? You can but people seem to now believe that any man in a position of power who has a relationship with a women who is not in an equal position is somehow exploiting his 'privilege' rather than accept that women have always gravitated towards such men. 

3 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Then again, none of them are really defending him either. So it's hard to say exactly how they feel or don't feel about the issue until they actually comment on it.

True but it's not trendy to do so at the moment, the cancel culture makes it dangerous to stick your head above the parapet ,especially in a place as achingly liberal as Hollywood. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

But both he and ED were sexually abused as kids and their addictions are classic reactions to that

Was he? I know he was bullied, but let's not get the two mixed up, being bullied and sexually abused are not necessarily the same thing. And the irony of all this is that Joss became a bully himself.

Also, being an asshole is not an addiction.

Quote

But that was about her time on Buffy/Angel? And I'm cynical that if he was such a monster why did she join him for a new show?

Does it matter when it happened, ie, on Buffy, Angel, or Dollhouse?

There are lots of reasons why she could have. Lots of people who aren't on the A-list will swallow their pride and work with people they may not want to because they need a job. Especially women in Hollywood, especially back then.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Hiyo

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/20/2021 at 10:34 PM, steelyis said:

NB, going by his past statements and interviews, didn't seem to have much privilege, or power of any kind BTS. Maybe he had it everywhere else, but he was no one's favorite BTS of BtVS. NB didn't seem to have much of a voice when it came to his character's development, or appearance, either. He was literally told to stop working out because Xander wasn't supposed to be in shape for some reason--it was a weird and intrusive thing to ask of any actor.

I remember watching a BTS recording of NB doing voice over for Chaos Bleeds, and Nick was either drunk or hungover, and it was obvious it was one of them.

The memory is kind embarrassing to me, because it was the only time I ever found NB attractive, and he was a mess.

He was complete newb, so I can totally see him not knowing how the business worked the way someone like Seth Green did.

As for his experience on the show contributing to his alcohol abuse? I don't think it helped.

I heard that but I think it was because being the muscleman just didn't suit Joss' vision of Xander's character (he's notably bigger in DMP, too many burgers?). Only time you found NB attractive? Not even Go Fish? 

[Hiyo]

Quote

They had ALL the power, they were some of the most beautiful women alive! If they respect MT surely they would support her?

No, a show runner/executive producer will always have power over a female actress working for him. No matter how beautiful she is considered.

Quote

You can but people seem to now believe that any man in a position of power who has a relationship with a women who is not in an equal position is somehow exploiting his 'privilege' rather than accept that women have always gravitated towards such men. 

Nah, I've always believed that. And not just for the entertainment industry. Women may gravitate towards men like that, true, but that doesn't exclude that men will exploit that for their own benefit.

Quote

True but it's not trendy to do so at the moment, the cancel culture makes it dangerous to stick your head above the parapet ,especially in a place as achingly liberal as Hollywood. 

That is a rather convenient argument, I suppose.

[Joe Hellandback]

2 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Was he? I know he was bullied, but let's not get the two mixed up, being bullied and sexually abused are not necessarily the same thing. And the irony of all this is that Joss became a bully himself.

Does it matter when it happened, ie, on Buffy, Angel, or Dollhouse?

There are lots of reasons why she could have. Lots of people who aren't on the A-list will swallow their pride and work with people they may not want to because they need a job. Especially women in Hollywood, especially back then.

Yes, he was;

Buffy star Nicholas Brendon reveals he was sexually abused as a child | Daily Mail Online

It's not bullying, Joss wasn't stealing their lunch money, he was driving hard to get the shows made (and make them all rich and famous), he was Perry Cox or Buffy in season 7 (which is lot more interesting to watch now?). It does matter, if this is how Joss always acts that's one thing, if this was just a sleep deprived, stressed out Joss overwhelmed by his workload that's different. But put yourself in Joss' place? If people act like everything is fine and keep saying how great you are, that's what you believe, how would you know otherwise? That they're lying to your face? 

[Hiyo]

Apologies, I thought you were referring to Joss being abused.

Quote

It's not bullying, Joss wasn't stealing their lunch money, he was driving hard to get the shows made

Insulting people, pitting them against one another, and creating a toxic work environment is definitely bullying.

Many other showrunners are able to produce great shows and franchises without doing what Joss did, so claiming he is some misunderstood sleep-deprived genius doesn't really fly.

[Joe Hellandback]

6 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

No, a show runner/executive producer will always have power over a female actress working for him. No matter how beautiful she is considered.

Nah, I've always believed that. And not just for the entertainment industry. Women may gravitate towards men like that, true, but that doesn't exclude that men will exploit that for their own benefit.

That is a rather convenient argument, I suppose.

And she (or he?) will have power over him (or her?), two sides to every story. Who's exploiting who exactly? Takes two to fill the casting couch? It's not convenient, it's reality. 

Some of the allegations are just plain stupid. Joss didn't employ minorities? Well tell that to Gina Torres, J August Richards, DB Woodside etc Joss didn't like thick girls? But he cast Riff Reagan in the pilot and Miracle Laurie in Dollhouse, not to mention wanting to bring Amber back, 

[Joe Hellandback]

1 minute ago, Hiyo said:

Apologies, I thought you were referring to Joss being abused.

Insulting people, pitting them against one another, and creating a toxic work environment is definitely bullying.

Many other showrunners are able to produce great shows and franchises without doing what Joss did, so claiming he is some misunderstood sleep-deprived genius doesn't really fly.

Or chivvying them along with humour that they didn't get, encouraging healthy competition and pushing them hard but himself harder? On the DVD commentaries he says that every time he asked more and more of his cast they rose to the occasion. I would imagine virtually every show runner did similar things and Hollywood is full of feuds (CA, X-files, DH etc) but remember Joss had more passion for his project than they did. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

And she (or he?) will have power over him (or her?), two sides to every story. Who's exploiting who exactly? Takes two to fill the casting couch?

Usually the person doing on the hiring side of the casting couch is the one with the power. And while this might be a concept some people don't get, the majority of women probably don't want to sleep with the person hiring them in order to get hired. Even if some do, the ones who don't are allowed to feel like they have been exploited.

Quote

Joss didn't like thick girls? But he cast Riff Reagan in the pilot and Miracle Laurie in Dollhouse, not to mention wanting to bring Amber back

Miracle and Amber are thick girls? Ouch.

And as mentioned above many time, Marti Noxon was the one who fought for Amber, not Joss.

Quote

Or chivvying them along with humour that they didn't get, encouraging healthy competition and pushing them hard but himself harder?

Calling pregnant women fat and/or asking a pregnant women if she wants to keep her baby isn't funny, it's rude and crass.

Quote

I would imagine virtually every show runner did similar things and Hollywood is full of feuds (CA, X-files, DH etc) 

So what? Just because its happened before, that doesn't make it right.

Quote

remember Joss had more passion for his project than they did. 

That's debatable.

[steelyis]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Only time you found NB attractive? Not even Go Fish? 

Xander/NB did look good in Go Fish, but he just doesn't do it for me, even in that scene. I think it's because I was struggling with accepting my bisexuality at the time, so I didn't often acknowledge I was attracted men. Plus, I kind of put Xander in a box--NB, too, I guess--and only saw him as the funny one.

[Jack Shaftoe]

11 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Joss didn't like thick girls? But he cast Riff Reagan in the pilot and Miracle Laurie in Dollhouse, not to mention wanting to bring Amber back, 

Amber Benson is not in any way, shape or form a "thick girl". Not even by (most) Hollywood standards. And in any event, wanting to bring her back was most likely a lie Joss came up with to satisfy pissed off fans because she herself denies that.

11 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

On the DVD commentaries he says that every time he asked more and more of his cast they rose to the occasion.

What do you expect him to say - "Haha, I am tyrant on set and half the cast hated my guts"? Even if true, it's not something you can just admit.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Jack Shaftoe

[roctavia]

17 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

They had ALL the power, they were some of the most beautiful women alive! If they respect MT surely they would support her? You can but people seem to now believe that any man in a position of power who has a relationship with a women who is not in an equal position is somehow exploiting his 'privilege' rather than accept that women have always gravitated towards such men. 

True but it's not trendy to do so at the moment, the cancel culture makes it dangerous to stick your head above the parapet ,especially in a place as achingly liberal as Hollywood. 

Young actresses trying to get a break into the industry had all the power??? Being attractive has perks, but it's not actual power. That's as bad as saying girls shouldn't wear tank tops in school because it distracts boys. If Joss wanted to sleep around he should have left his wife.... but also should have been man enough to say it wasn't proper for him to sleep with his employees. 

Even if they were throwing themselves at him, maybe hoping that it would make them his favorite so they wouldn't get treated like shit or so they could get more screen time, he was the boss who should have been able to say no. 

He could have them fired if he chose, he could have cut their screen time to nothing if they decided they didn't want to sleep with him. He had all of the power. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/22/2021 at 8:23 AM, Hiyo said:

Usually the person doing on the hiring side of the casting couch is the one with the power. And while this might be a concept some people don't get, the majority of women probably don't want to sleep with the person hiring them in order to get hired. Even if some do, the ones who don't are allowed to feel like they have been exploited.

Miracle and Amber are thick girls? Ouch.

And as mentioned above many time, Marti Noxon was the one who fought for Amber, not Joss.

Calling pregnant women fat and/or asking a pregnant women if she wants to keep her baby isn't funny, it's rude and crass.

So what? Just because its happened before, that doesn't make it right.

That's debatable.

2 way street, the person behind the desk has what the actor/actress wants but the actor/actress has what they want. How does the actor/actress not exploit as much as the person behind the desk? That they did this to further their career but now regret it? They are not allowed to feel they've been exploited, that's hypocrisy. 

For the Ally McBeal era Miracle and Amber were thick girls. Even today they'd be unusual for Hollywood. Yes, Marti convinced Joss that she had that quality they needed which he didn't see at first. He never said she's too fat. The way I would interpret the fat joke was that it was funny because she was so clearly pregnant. he was being deliberately ridiculous and she took umbrage because she didn't get it, I've had similar experiences myself. I put him asking CC if she was keeping the baby just from him being stunned, same with apparently laughing at the crying writer, it was nervous, incredulous laughter that an adult could act this way (again, happened to me). 

He has more passion, these projects are his babies, he threatened to quit if they didn't allow the Willow/Tara kiss.  People are treating Joss as if he's something different in Hollywood but it seems his pro-feminist credentials are causing this particular backlash.     

12 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Amber Benson is not in any way, shape or form a "thick girl". Not even by (most) Hollywood standards. And in any event, wanting to bring her back was most likely a lie Joss came up with to satisfy pissed off fans because she herself denies that.

What do you expect him to say - "Haha, I am tyrant on set and half the cast hated my guts"? Even if true, it's not something you can just admit.

Where do you get that from? Amber herself said she refused because she thought it was a betrayal of the character. Other people, Mark Cherry on DH etc have talked about feuds on set, Joss seems to have thought everything was fine and now been blindsided (something which has happened to me with my students)

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, roctavia said:

Young actresses trying to get a break into the industry had all the power??? Being attractive has perks, but it's not actual power. That's as bad as saying girls shouldn't wear tank tops in school because it distracts boys. If Joss wanted to sleep around he should have left his wife.... but also should have been man enough to say it wasn't proper for him to sleep with his employees. 

Even if they were throwing themselves at him, maybe hoping that it would make them his favorite so they wouldn't get treated like shit or so they could get more screen time, he was the boss who should have been able to say no. 

He could have them fired if he chose, he could have cut their screen time to nothing if they decided they didn't want to sleep with him. He had all of the power. 

Hey, people are only human and it cuts both ways, takes 2 to tango. These girls had what he wanted, he had what they wanted, it may be a seedy trade off but it is not one sided blame. 

[Hiyo]

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2 way street, the person behind the desk has what the actor/actress wants but the actor/actress has what they want. How does the actor/actress not exploit as much as the person behind the desk?

Because I'm just guessing most actors and actresses don't want to have to fuck the person hiring them in order to get the job?

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That they did this to further their career but now regret it? They are not allowed to feel they've been exploited, that's hypocrisy. 

Most people who end up on the casting couch aren't always there by their choice, and them feeling regret for it later doesn't make it hypocrisy. Granted, it doesn't meet the definition of the word hypocrisy at all. Hypocrisy is espousing being a feminist and preaching feminist values but acting in a way that is the complete opposite of being a feminist (just an example).

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For the Ally McBeal era Miracle and Amber were thick girls. Even today they'd be unusual for Hollywood.

Which is a part of the problem, and being complicit in the problem doesn't absolve or excuse someone for that either.

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Yes, Marti convinced Joss that she had that quality they needed which he didn't see at first. He never said she's too fat.

Except her body shape was the issue for Joss, and why Marti had to push for her to be cast in the role.

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The way I would interpret the fat joke was that it was funny because she was so clearly pregnant. he was being deliberately ridiculous and she took umbrage because she didn't get it,

No, I'm sure she got it. Fat jokes are usually never funny to the person being joked about. And calling someone who is clearly pregnant fat isn't a joke, it's being an asshole while hiding behind a "It was just a joke, lighten up!" shield.

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I put him asking CC if she was keeping the baby just from him being stunned, same with apparently laughing at the crying writer, it was nervous, incredulous laughter that an adult could act this way

Stunned that a woman could be pregnant? And a working woman? And a working woman who is also working as an actress? I'm stunned that adults would act this way when finding out a woman is pregnant.

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People are treating Joss as if he's something different in Hollywood but it seems his pro-feminist credentials are causing this particular backlash.     

Actually, I think it's his fake and hypocritical pro-feminist credentials that are adding to the backlash.

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Other people, Mark Cherry on DH etc have talked about feuds on set, Joss seems to have thought everything was fine and now been blindsided

Feuds is one thing, creating a toxic work environment is another.

Joss seems to have thought nobody would bring up his asshole issues to public, and that seems to have blindsided him more than anything.

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Hey, people are only human and it cuts both ways, takes 2 to tango. These girls had what he wanted, he had what they wanted, it may be a seedy trade off but it is not one sided blame. 

I'm not sure a tango is the best metaphor to use when there is an imbalance of power.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Hiyo