S05.E04: The Talented Mr. Ridley

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

2 minutes ago, bichonblitz said:

It was a mutual attraction. They both had feelings for each other. There was no sexual harassment involved. 

According to almost every company policy, it is. Even offices that allow inter office dating would balk at allowing the CEO to date within the company at all, certainly as low down as Liza is. The power differential is just too great, and could ruin Liza permanently if it were made public, no matter how into him she is. 

[Yeah No]

38 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

According to almost every company policy, it is. Even offices that allow inter office dating would balk at allowing the CEO to date within the company at all, certainly as low down as Liza is. The power differential is just too great, and could ruin Liza permanently if it were made public, no matter how into him she is. 

Very true, and it could ruin Charles' career as well.  Not sure how his company is structured, but if it has a board they could and probably would vote him out.  The offense is seen as much worse coming from a senior executive than involving lower level employees.  I actually know of a case of a high level executive having a long term affair with his admin., although they kept it a big secret for many years and it ran its course and is over now.  Over the years his friends suspected that they had a relationship, but there was no proof and they acted completely professional at work so no one ever knew.  Neither one was married.  The point is, it can be done but it involves a lot of discretion and secrecy, which most people don't want to live with.

What baffles me about Charles is he seems to want to do "the right thing" or what appears to be the right thing ethically in so many situations, except when it comes to Liza.  He can't look in the mirror?  I suppose that's realistic because people are rarely consistent and often blind to their own hypocrisy.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

55 minutes ago, bichonblitz said:

It was a mutual attraction. They both had feelings for each other. There was no sexual harassment involved. 

A few years ago, we had a huge and very public scandal because someone very high up was secretly having an affair someone two steps down in their chain of command. It was a mutual relationship but the higher up was the one who got in huge trouble (despite the fact that the person in the lower position was also caught doing some other stuff too). It was still considered sexual harassment because of the power differential.

[Mabinogia]

40 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Not sure how his company is structured, but if it has a board they could and probably would vote him out.  The offense is seen as much worse coming from a senior executive than involving lower level employees.

Yeah,, because theoretically he could use his position to force her to stay in a relationship with him even if she decided she wanted out. He could threaten to fire her, or refuse her promotions etc. It is a potential lawsuit most companies would do anything to avoid, hence most companies forbid romance between boss/employee.  Even if there are a few people between them, in this case Diana, Charles could still use his power and influence to hurt Liza professionally since he has power over her career.

[dubbel zout]

Already discussed.

Edited June 29, 2018 by dubbel zout
My two cents is unnecessary

[WhosThatGirl]

I’ve never been a Charles/ Liza shipper. Always team Josh. And even that I’m meh about it. And I find it odd that everyone thinks Charles is Liza’s end game. Really?

I mean like I said they keep throwing josh in and keeping him around.. for a reason. And they keep giving josh and Liza moments here and there. And yes josh is hooking up with randoms but the show keeps pulling that relationship into focus time and time again.

And like I said.. I don’t really have any real feelings on who ends up with who in this show. I’m way more passionate in other tv shows and even then.. I love a ship but I know that that ship might not possibly be the end goal, and that’s why I think it’s odd that most  people here think Charles and Liza is the end. I’m not sold on that. And honestly.. not really sure why anyone else based on his behavior.

[LuvMyShows]

6 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I’ve never been a Charles/ Liza shipper. Always team Josh. And even that I’m meh about it. And I find it odd that everyone thinks Charles is Liza’s end game. Really?

I mean like I said they keep throwing josh in and keeping him around.. for a reason. And they keep giving josh and Liza moments here and there. And yes josh is hooking up with randoms but the show keeps pulling that relationship into focus time and time again.

And like I said.. I don’t really have any real feelings on who ends up with who in this show. I’m way more passionate in other tv shows and even then.. I love a ship but I know that that ship might not possibly be the end goal, and that’s why I think it’s odd that most  people here think Charles and Liza is the end. I’m not sold on that. And honestly.. not really sure why anyone else based on his behavior.

OK, so here's my stab at why I think it will be Charles (regardless of whether I think it should or not):

• After all the years of the show with Charles and Josh, I don't think the writers will go the route of someone new.
• So if it is to be Charles or Josh, Liza had feelings for Charles all the while she was with Josh, even 'cheating' on Josh to kiss Charles.
• Josh has made it clear that he would like kids, and Liza has indicated that she is done with that.
• Charles is her intellectual equal in a way that Josh isn't.
• Charles is the more traditional partner in terms of age and experience, and most shows go that way.
• Charles is the one that events/fate has kept apart from Liza, and most shows go that way.

[HunterHunted]

@WhosThatGirl I think people feel like Charles and Liza are endgame because while Josh and Liza have an easy chemistry, they don't bond on the other thing which is most important to her--books and publishing. He's always thought her book thing was very foreign and been uncomfortable in that world. While, Liza has jumped into his things without too much grumbling. Additionally, Charles has often been the spoiler in Liza's relationship with Josh. It's subverting the trope by having the older more stable guy be the temptation. However, I don't think Darren Star is creative enough to figure out a way to really subvert it by having Liza end up with Josh or single. Finally in the conclusion of season 2, Charles was the one to bring Liza back from NJ. They've clearly written Charles and Liza up with a ton of romance tropes. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by HunterHunted

[WhosThatGirl]

Wow. I guess everyone’s feelings make sense but for me.. I just don’t feel it. Then again... this show has gotten sort of stale for me. The only character I enjoy is Diane and we very rarely get enough of her. 

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

OK, so here's my stab at why I think it will be Charles (regardless of whether I think it should or not):

• After all the years of the show with Charles and Josh, I don't think the writers will go the route of someone new.
• So if it is to be Charles or Josh, Liza had feelings for Charles all the while she was with Josh, even 'cheating' on Josh to kiss Charles.
• Josh has made it clear that he would like kids, and Liza has indicated that she is done with that.
• Charles is her intellectual equal in a way that Josh isn't.
• Charles is the more traditional partner in terms of age and experience, and most shows go that way.
• Charles is the one that events/fate has kept apart from Liza, and most shows go that way.

I agree and see a lot of parallels between Charles and "Big" from SATC.  Charles being like Big in being the older, more traditional, more established choice that was her true love that she held the torch for even as she dated others (like Carrie did in SATC - Carrie even cheated on some of the others with Big).  And Big was definitely the one that kept getting away and fate kept keeping him and Carrie apart like Liza and Charles are being kept apart.

I also don't sense that Liza has many misgivings for having split with Josh, although the show could possibly make her have some in the future, I just don't see it sticking.  She has had enough contact with him since the breakup, even attended his wedding and nothing so far makes it look like she's still holding much of any torch for him.  If she were she would have been throwing up at the wedding and declaring her love for him before it happened.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Yeah No

[Mabinogia]

15 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Charles is her intellectual equal in a way that Josh isn't.

IDK about that one. Charles is more of a petulant man child than anything. On paper, sure, Charles is the more "impressive" of the two, but I find Liza far superior to him in almost every way and I think Josh is more mature and emotionally intellent, possibly even more intellectually intelligent, he just doesn't have a fancy job title or run a company. Charles is only superior in his income for me. That is the only thing he has going for him. He and Liza are only closer in terms of life experience, being married, raising kids, remembering the 80s. 

I think it would be far more interesting for her to end up with Josh. Charles is just so obvious. 

[HunterHunted]

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

IDK about that one. Charles is more of a petulant man child than anything. On paper, sure, Charles is the more "impressive" of the two, but I find Liza far superior to him in almost every way and I think Josh is more mature and emotionally intellent, possibly even more intellectually intelligent, he just doesn't have a fancy job title or run a company. Charles is only superior in his income for me. That is the only thing he has going for him. He and Liza are only closer in terms of life experience, being married, raising kids, remembering the 80s. 

I think it would be far more interesting for her to end up with Josh. Charles is just so obvious. 

I was, for a very long time, more in favor of her ending up with Charles than Josh (I really want her to end up with neither). However, the back half of season 4 and season 5 have really highlighted how emotionally constipated Charles is. Josh says what he feels and that's important in a successful relationship. That Charles would need to be taught that in his mid-40s means that going forward with him is going to be a tough row to hoe.

Furthermore, Charles seems to be devoid of ideas and ambition. The impression that I've gotten about him running Empirical is that it's a family publishing house that did quite well in the past, but it's dying a slow death under Charles. He won't be the one to kill it outright, but he ain't helping. And by the time his daughters get it, the only thing they can do for it is sell it.

In contrast, the show used to do a much better job of showing that Josh was fairly ambitious in his own way. He was in the New York Times Magazine for people under 30 to watch. He had waiting lists to tattoo people. We'd actually see him at Inkburg. So while Josh didn't have a suit or a tie, it was pretty clear that he was no less interested in his profession than Charles seemed to be about his. I wish Josh had gone through with the adult coloring book. Or maybe licensing his designs for a wall decal company or a clothing company.

Josh doesn't have any real connection to most of the story right now, but I would love it if they put him in a fictional version of Ink Master that the rest of them watched every week. It would be a way to do something with Josh and still show that he's doing shit with his life and career. Plus Ink Master is secretly a comedy that thinks it's drama because Ink Master is the biggest most hilariously least self-aware dick measuring contest every week. "Yo, bro! Your composition is for shit. Your color saturation is garbage. That doesn't even look like a stained glass carousel unicorn." These are legitimately things that have been said on that show with no irony. I can see Josh being cast on a show like that because he's a good looking in demand tattoo artist. This could be a way for him to grow his profile, do some residencies in other shops, and license his designs.

Edited July 1, 2018 by HunterHunted

[dubbel zout]

I don't blame Charles entirely for Empirical's troubles—book publishing isn't exactly the wave of the future (or even the present)—but he too often lets his personal feelings influence what should be a purely business decision. Obviously some of that is plot driven, but I'd like to see less of that. 

24 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

how emotionally constipated Charles is

He's also super passive, current snitfest against Liza notwithstanding. (Which I'm hugely enjoying, for the most part, because at least he finally is DOING something, even if it's immature.) Emotionally constipated and passive? Oof. That is a tough combination to deal with. 

[Mabinogia]

38 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't blame Charles entirely for Empirical's troubles—book publishing isn't exactly the wave of the future (or even the present)—but he too often lets his personal feelings influence what should be a purely business decision. Obviously some of that is plot driven, but I'd like to see less of that. 

I really wish the show would get more into the dynamic with Charles and Diana. IMO she should be running Empirical. I think she would make a much better go of it, getting more involved in digital publishing, or some such. She just seems ambitious and driven. She knows how to get shit done. But he is perfect example of "white male privledge" and Diana is stuck under the "glass ceiling" and I think dealing with that would be far more interesting than his completely unromantic, unsizzling romance with Liza. I mean, you'd think their romance being all forbidden would make it hot, but it is so limp, like him. 

Passive is the perfect word for Charles. He's just...there. I don't get the impression he's ever really had to fight for something he wanted. He probably figured he would take over the family business and just let the ship steer itself.

Josh's only issue is he is young, so he still wants the family thing that Liza has already done. That is a pretty impossible hurdle to jump as one of them would have to make a huge compromise. But I would be happy if Josh and Liza had a longer relationship even if it doesn't end in marriage for them. I just don't want to see her stuck with Charles. She deserves way better than him. 

My worst case is that they stick Josh in a relationship with one of the other women on the show. I know people have mentioned Lauren. I just find 'ship swapping between main cast members way too soapy for my taste. 

[Moxie Cat]

19 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I agree and see a lot of parallels between Charles and "Big" from SATC.

Oh my lord....even with the current drama, I like Charles so much more than I ever liked Big. When Charles ditches Liza at the altar we can talk!

I actually liked seeing Charles crack a little by the end of this one. If I were him, though, I'd be way more interested in why Liza lied, how she did it, etc. At some point, as many have mentioned, someone will notice that Liza's experience would make a great book and that will be what "outs" her widely, in a good way. Right now Charles is just so hurt, really more than Liza knows, and it will take awhile for him to get over that.

Surprised that the Josh/Kelsey thing has been dropped, after so many hints last year. I love Charles Michael Davis, though, and with the Originals ending, I'm glad I'll still get to see and hear him!

I would love if, when Diana inevitably finds out about Liza, she just shrugs it off and says something like, "well, I suspected....you're too good at your job to be 26." In other words, have a completely different and more mature, less personal reaction than Josh, Kelsey, or Charles.

[LuvMyShows]

2 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

I would love if, when Diana inevitably finds out about Liza, she just shrugs it off and says something like, "well, I suspected....you're too good at your job to be 26." In other words, have a completely different and more mature, less personal reaction than Josh, Kelsey, or Charles.

That would be great!

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

Oh my lord....even with the current drama, I like Charles so much more than I ever liked Big. When Charles ditches Liza at the altar we can talk!

Oh, I don't think the two characters have much in common whatsoever as people, I just think there are several parallels in how their characters have been written with regard to being a love interest of the main character.  Like being the "one that keeps getting away".  Or the one that always wears a suit, or has a certain mystique that is played up for the supposed romance it brings.  I don't think any of that is a coincidence in a Darren Star show.  It tells me that the things that floats his boat are similar things as float mine.  The Josh's of the world are cute and fun to play with for a while but the real goal is that big, powerful daddy in the corner office that has an aura of mystery, glamour, yet a boyish charm all wrapped into one.

Don't tell me I'm the only one that sees this!

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Or the one that always wears a suit, or has a certain mystique that is played up for the supposed romance it brings.

I think this is the biggest parallel. Neither of them has/had much personality outside of "fancy NYC businessman in a suit." We're meant to swoon over them for no other reason than they are rich and well dressed. That appealed to me when I was late teens early 20s but now I like a man with a bit of substance and personality so Charles' "charm" is totally lost on me. I loved Big back in the day but not into him at all now. 

[WhosThatGirl]

Eh. I still prefer josh over Charles. I don’t know. I’ve never been into him.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I think this is the biggest parallel. Neither of them has/had much personality outside of "fancy NYC businessman in a suit." We're meant to swoon over them for no other reason than they are rich and well dressed. That appealed to me when I was late teens early 20s but now I like a man with a bit of substance and personality so Charles' "charm" is totally lost on me. I loved Big back in the day but not into him at all now. 

I've known rich and powerful businessmen/suits like Charles and those with a lot more substance and personality, so it depends on the person in my experience.  I was a high level executive assistant at big companies in my career so I've met quite a few of them.  Unfortunately, the show has written Charles to be very stiff and uninteresting, which he really shouldn't be considering his field.  At least Big seemed to have a little more of a personality, although I never much cared for him.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I've known rich and powerful businessmen/suits like Charles and those with a lot more substance and personality, so it depends on the person in my experience.

I wasn't implying that all powerful businessmen are devoid of personality, just that Darren Starr seems to think that's all a woman needs in order to swoon over the guy since both Mr Big and Charles seem to be nothing more than traditionally good looking men in suits with powerful jobs. Neither character seemed to be developed much beyond, "women will swoon because he's in a suit with a big important job". They are the male version of arm candy really. Pity, really, since I find both actors swoon worthy physically. It's just that both characters are such duds. I mean, this show managed to make Peter Hermann unattractive to me. That's an impressive feat. 

[LuvMyShows]

From reading all the negative comments about Charles, I wonder if the show realizes that so many of us feel that way now.  I don't think it was intentional on their part, to have us come to feel this way...I think it's just Darren Starr being tone deaf, or something.  

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I wasn't implying that all powerful businessmen are devoid of personality, just that Darren Starr seems to think that's all a woman needs in order to swoon over the guy since both Mr Big and Charles seem to be nothing more than traditionally good looking men in suits with powerful jobs. Neither character seemed to be developed much beyond, "women will swoon because he's in a suit with a big important job". They are the male version of arm candy really. Pity, really, since I find both actors swoon worthy physically. It's just that both characters are such duds. I mean, this show managed to make Peter Hermann unattractive to me. That's an impressive feat. 

I hear you.  I still think Peter Hermann is very attractive, but the more time goes on and the more he fails to show any depth, the less attractive I find him.  I agree, both characters are not developed well past the surface stuff.  I also think Josh is a much better developed character.  I think Darren Starr thinks these alpha males need to be "men of mystery" in order to make them irresistible to women, but I think he's taken it way too far in Charles' case and it's backfiring.  If anything, he's coming off as indecisive and weak spined.

[dubbel zout]

I don't think Charles is a man of mystery at all. He's an emotionally constipated, passive bore. 

[Mabinogia]

10 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't think Charles is a man of mystery at all. He's an emotionally constipated, passive bore. 

One persons emotionally constipated, passive bore is Darren Starr's man of mystery. I think @Yeah No is right, that's what Starr thinks women want. Some sort of elusive man of mystery. I'd take a fun loving, emotionally mature tattoo artist anyday  over the emotionally constipated (really, best phrase ever to describe him), passive bore anyday.

I would personally prefer to see Liza stay single, date casually and enjoy her freedom after a bad marriage, but TV doesn't believe in casual dating, so she's going to have to "end up" with one of these two guys, really, that's the whole premise of the show beyond the age thing, which is almost done, so I'm on Team Josh all the way. I like Liza way too much to be Team Charles. His wife can have him back and they can go meander indecisively into the sunset together.

[Bort]

16 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I like Liza way too much to be Team Charles. His wife can have him back and they can go meander indecisively into the sunset together.

Those poor kids.

"Dad, can we have a pony?"
"Ask your mother."
"Mom, can we have a pony?"
"Ask your father."
"Dad, can we have a pony?"
"Ask your mother."
"Mom, can we have a pony?"
"Ask your father."

It'll be like one of those endless DOS loops.

[dubbel zout]

21 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I would personally prefer to see Liza stay single, date casually and enjoy her freedom after a bad marriage, but TV doesn't believe in casual dating

Same here! What's wrong with Liza being on her own for a while? I really hate that being partnered up is still considered the only acceptable HEA. Many of us are satisfied and fulfilled as single people. 

[WhosThatGirl]

I wouldn’t mind Liza ending up single, I just don’t see that being the end(then again this is a case of almost all shows, isn’t it? Very rarely do characters end up alone). 

[dubbel zout]

I don't see it happening, either. It shows a lack of imagination, IMO. It's also lazy and creatively cowardly.

[Claudia Kishi]

I’m more invested in Diana’s love life than Liza’s at this point. I want Diana to end up madly in love with someone who treats her like gold. Maybe even adopt a baby. I’d love to see her navigating the motherhood role. 

[WhosThatGirl]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't see it happening, either. It shows a lack of imagination, IMO. It's also lazy and creatively cowardly.

Really? I personally think ending up alone would be better for characters, then forcing a ending with them with a relationship. Like Carrie and big, back when it aired I wanted her to end up with him, but on reruns I wish she didn’t. I don’t them together at all anymore. 

[dubbel zout]

I think you misread me: I don't see Liza being alone as happening. She'll end up with someone.

[WhosThatGirl]

55 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think you misread me: I don't see Liza being alone as happening. She'll end up with someone.

Oh I know she will as well. 

Also not yo bring it back to satc again but there was an alternate ending where Carrie did end up alone, it’s up on YouTube.. I mean yeah she only ends up alone cause Big chickens out but still 

Edited July 2, 2018 by WhosThatGirl

[springbarb]

On 6/30/2018 at 3:40 PM, Mabinogia said:

I really wish the show would get more into the dynamic with Charles and Diana. IMO she should be running Empirical. I think she would make a much better go of it, getting more involved in digital publishing, or some such. She just seems ambitious and driven. She knows how to get shit done. But he is perfect example of "white male privledge" and Diana is stuck under the "glass ceiling" and I think dealing with that would be far more interesting than his completely unromantic, unsizzling romance with Liza. I mean, you'd think their romance being all forbidden would make it hot, but it is so limp, like him.

Eh, I haven't really seen anything from Diana to make me think she's at all innovative or willing to try new things to shake up Empirical. I like Diana, but her actual work hasn't impressed me (not that I can really think of any examples off the top of my head).

[traveladdie]

On 7/1/2018 at 2:41 PM, Yeah No said:

I've known rich and powerful businessmen/suits like Charles and those with a lot more substance and personality, so it depends on the person in my experience.  I was a high level executive assistant at big companies in my career so I've met quite a few of them.  Unfortunately, the show has written Charles to be very stiff and uninteresting, which he really shouldn't be considering his field.  At least Big seemed to have a little more of a personality, although I never much cared for him.

The writers are opening up Charles's personality this year. I'm a big fan of them taking him out of the perfect personality corner they'd written him into.

On 7/1/2018 at 4:41 PM, LuvMyShows said:

From reading all the negative comments about Charles, I wonder if the show realizes that so many of us feel that way now.  I don't think it was intentional on their part, to have us come to feel this way...I think it's just Darren Starr being tone deaf, or something.  

This site has a lot of negative comments but I have peeked at other sites and that is not the case. I looked at Reddit and ONTD for comments and didn't find nearly as many negative comments about Charles as on this board. People tend to post where they think at least others will understand and agree with their position. 

[traveladdie]

9 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I wouldn’t mind Liza ending up single, I just don’t see that being the end(then again this is a case of almost all shows, isn’t it? Very rarely do characters end up alone). 

I don't think she will pick anyone but herself in the end.  She may have a relationship with one of them but she won't be settling down to be anyone's wife. That's not why she  is working so hard.

[WhosThatGirl]

19 minutes ago, traveladdie said:

I don't think she will pick anyone but herself in the end.  She may have a relationship with one of them but she won't be settling down to be anyone's wife. That's not why she  is working so hard.

I mean yeah but I would like her to be snuggle, not in any relationship. But like I said that will never happen- again, not just this show. Pretty much all shows for the most part. 

[Gothish520]

I have to say, I don't really see anything noble in characters ending up alone. I mean, does anybody really want to be alone? The desire to share your life with someone is innately human, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, being alone is infinitely better than being in a bad relationship. But I think people want to see their heroes and heroines happy with a person who loves them, and whom they love in return.

[WhosThatGirl]

18 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I have to say, I don't really see anything noble in characters ending up alone. I mean, does anybody really want to be alone? The desire to share your life with someone is innately human, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, being alone is infinitely better than being in a bad relationship. But I think people want to see their heroes and heroines happy with a person who loves them, and whom they love in return.

But that’s what I’m saying, sometimes I think a character has a better ending being by themselves than being shoehorned into a relationship, in most cases to end a triangle or something. To me t isn’t a noble choice that’s not what I mean.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, traveladdie said:

This site has a lot of negative comments but I have peeked at other sites and that is not the case. I looked at Reddit and ONTD for comments and didn't find nearly as many negative comments about Charles as on this board. People tend to post where they think at least others will understand and agree with their position. 

I only comment here, but I read recaps and comments about the show on Vulture and Reddit. I've seen similar comments on both sites. 

There are only 88 posts on this episode here (and 2700 views). The Reddit thread for this episode has 202 comments. At least 40 of them are about not liking that Charles is acting pissy and unprofessional. The nature of how people comment on previously means that they are more likely to post longer fleshed out thoughts. This isn't a knock on other sites, but they don't love it when people post "This!" or "I loved it too" here. This is just to say that there is a type of post that doesn't show up here. So while it might seem like only 20% of the comments on Reddit dislike Charles now, there is another 20% or 25% of comments on Reddit that don't show up here. Vulture has only 11 comments about the episode. Half of them complain about Charles. I don't think 50% of the readers of the recap are annoyed by him. Also lots of people lurk and never comment. My argument is that the actual percentage of readers at a particular site who are irritated by Charles is probably about the same.

[traveladdie]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

I only comment here, but I read recaps and comments about the show on Vulture and Reddit. I've seen similar comments on both sites. 

There are only 88 posts on this episode here (and 2700 views). The Reddit thread for this episode has 202 comments. At least 40 of them are about not liking that Charles is acting pissy and unprofessional. The nature of how people comment on previously means that they are more likely to post longer fleshed out thoughts. This isn't a knock on other sites, but they don't love it when people post "This!" or "I loved it too" here. This is just to say that there is a type of post that doesn't show up here. So while it might seem like only 20% of the comments on Reddit dislike Charles now, there is another 20% or 25% of comments on Reddit that don't show up here. Vulture has only 11 comments about the episode. Half of them complain about Charles. I don't think 50% of the readers of the recap are annoyed by him. Also lots of people lurk and never comment. My argument is that the actual percentage of readers at a particular site who are irritated by Charles is probably about the same.

I don't think the writers are surprised one bit that people are annoyed with Charles. I like him as a character and I am annoyed with him. I suspect the writers had this in mind when they wrote him being bitchy and pissy. 

3 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I have to say, I don't really see anything noble in characters ending up alone. I mean, does anybody really want to be alone? The desire to share your life with someone is innately human, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, being alone is infinitely better than being in a bad relationship. But I think people want to see their heroes and heroines happy with a person who loves them, and whom they love in return.

She could still be happy and choose to focus on her career but also with a loving relationship. For Liza fans, her happy ever after would have to include being a success at her job.

[Yeah No]

11 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I have to say, I don't really see anything noble in characters ending up alone. I mean, does anybody really want to be alone? The desire to share your life with someone is innately human, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, being alone is infinitely better than being in a bad relationship. But I think people want to see their heroes and heroines happy with a person who loves them, and whom they love in return.

I agree, besides this is kind of a rom-com of a series so it would feel unsatisfying for her to end up alone.  Real life is different.  I wouldn't mind seeing her go through an extended time without any love interest, though. 

23 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

One persons emotionally constipated, passive bore is Darren Starr's man of mystery. I think @Yeah No is right, that's what Starr thinks women want. Some sort of elusive man of mystery. I'd take a fun loving, emotionally mature tattoo artist anyday  over the emotionally constipated (really, best phrase ever to describe him), passive bore anyday.

At this point I'm almost ready to agree with you about Josh, and I was one of the biggest Charles shippers out there.  Thanks a lot, show.

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I have to say, I don't really see anything noble in characters ending up alone.

Plenty of people live fulfilling, satisfying lives without a partner. It doesn't mean you're isolated from humanity. It doesn't mean you aren't sharing you life with others.

[Yeah No]

30 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Plenty of people live fulfilling, satisfying lives without a partner. It doesn't mean you're isolated from humanity. It doesn't mean you aren't sharing you life with others.

I agree with you, but we were talking about our preference for how some characters end up, not real life people.

[dubbel zout]

I'd say the same can be true for characters. Liza doesn't have to be with someone in order to be happy. As @traveladdie mentioned, a happy ending for Liza should be professional success as much as anything else.

[Mabinogia]

The show could end with her meeting a new guy, having that spark, going on a date. It is an optimistic end because she may find love. But Liza is/just went through a big life change. I don't think she should be in a relationship right now. I also don't think she should end up with Charles or Josh. But, this is a rom-com, so she will, and odds are it will be Charles because apparently that is Darren Starr's idea of a dream guy.

But really, the happy ending I want to see for Liza is her reading glowing reviews for her best selling book Younger which has put her in a position to do, professionally, whatever it is she wants. I want to see her surrounded by best friends and generally happy. If that means having a man in her life, great, if not, it doesn't mean she's alone.

I've never been in a long term relationship (I'm 46) and I've never felt alone. Not being in a romantic relationship isn't the same as not having family, friends and fulfillment in your life. It just means your Ben and Jerry's will always be in the freezer, no one ate the last of it, and you can walk around in your underwear without worrying about someone walking in. haha

[dubbel zout]

Beautifully put, @Mabinogia!

[Gothish520]

34 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

The show could end with her meeting a new guy, having that spark, going on a date. It is an optimistic end because she may find love. But Liza is/just went through a big life change. I don't think she should be in a relationship right now. I also don't think she should end up with Charles or Josh. But, this is a rom-com, so she will, and odds are it will be Charles because apparently that is Darren Starr's idea of a dream guy.

But really, the happy ending I want to see for Liza is her reading glowing reviews for her best selling book Younger which has put her in a position to do, professionally, whatever it is she wants. I want to see her surrounded by best friends and generally happy. If that means having a man in her life, great, if not, it doesn't mean she's alone.

I've never been in a long term relationship (I'm 46) and I've never felt alone. Not being in a romantic relationship isn't the same as not having family, friends and fulfillment in your life. It just means your Ben and Jerry's will always be in the freezer, no one ate the last of it, and you can walk around in your underwear without worrying about someone walking in. haha

There's a difference between being alone and being lonely, for sure. One can be "alone" in the sense of not having a significant other, and live a full and rich life. One can also be married or in a relationship and yet still be lonely. 

[Yeah No]

I guess I just see don't see the point of a rom-com in which the entire series revolves around Liza and her relationships with men making her end up solo in the end.  There's plenty of room on TV and in books and movies for heroines that end up alone, but this show in my opinion is not the place for that kind of ending.  This show has set us up for the main character to end up with someone.  If the show didn't go there after all that anticipation, most of the audience would be pissed off because that's what they're expecting.  If the show took a different angle and made it all about a character's growth into not necessarily wanting to end up with someone, that would be different.  But so far the show has been all about Liza being in love with someone, and who will she end up with?  Will she or won't she end up with this guy or that guy?  She would have to do a lot of changing in order for her to free herself from all that, and quite honestly, I didn't sign on to this show for that kind of ending.  For me this is a light hearted romp and I think that's what the show is intended to be anyway.

[MYOS]

I hope Diana has finally found someone who treats her right. Seeing her as the constant butt of dumb jokes was my least favorite part of the show.

 

It's also good to see her outside of her literati world - seeing someone who works in a "non glamorous" profession but makes good money and knows sophisticated stuff; the opposite is Ridley, who is part of the "glamorous" world but is without money. Basically, you can have status OR money if you're in your 40s in Manhattan, not both, unless you were born into it (Charles) or extremely ambitious, hard working, and willing to accept all sorts of slights & sacrifices (Diana). Brooklyn ie., the carefree younger folks have status and money through other "non legitimate" means (Josh), Kelsey and Lauren have precarious money and self-created status in addition to working on it all the time. Plus Maggie who's "honorary young" due to being an artist and generally fabulous.