S16.E20: Colion Noir, Michael Pollan, Michael Smerconish, Neera Tanden, and Josh Barro

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Television host Colion Noir is the top-of-show interview guest. Author Michael Pollan is the mid-show interview guest. The roundtable guests are Business Insider senior editor and radio host Josh Barro, radio host and author Michael Smerconish and Center for American Progress president and CEO Neera Tanden.

[Victor the Crab]

You don't fucking get it, do you Bill? Recessions hurt a LOT of people. Even those who didn't vote for Drumpf because of the damage he would unleash. A recession under the big fat cheese can easily turn into a depression because of the policies he enacted. Would you still be rooting for that?!! And besides, there's no guarantee that Drumpf's numb headed supporters would turn on him if such an economic downturn would happen. They'll just accept the right's accusations that it was all Obama's fault. And speaking of which, don't give us your fucking sob story about you losing your money in the last great recession. You were able to recover quite nicely to give Obama a one million dollar check for his re-election campaign in 2012, so you will never be affected by any downturn. You really think we're all that fucking stupid, do you?

Ugh! Michael Moore and Ben Shapiro on the same show! Two very deserving douchebags of a massive fist blasting to the face.

[PickledTinker]

I thought overtime was excellent tonight.  I really enjoyed the discussion between Neera Tanden and Colton Noir. They were able to remain civil and also get their points across. I am more in tune with Ms Tanden’s views than Mr Noir’s and did feel that she was more persuasive and logical.  As a Floridian, I’ve been horrified with the effects of Stand Your Ground and am glad to hear it brought up.

Good show!

[CaliCheeseSucks]

Colion Noir has to be one of the most insufferable tools I've listened to; Neera was having none of it in Overtime and I was living for it.

[bobbyjoe]

Bill has really lost all sense of what actually makes a good broadcast show.  Not Overtime— it’s there lately that the most watchable action is taking place, but then quickly gets cut off because of the time limitations.  It’s extremely dull to watch Bill bring on conservative snowflakes at the top of the show and sit there with Bill serving as an inept and uninformed companion who mostly just lets them spew bad faith talking points virtually unchallenged.  What’s 1,000 times more interesting is when some actual pushback and debate takes place, but because Bill is so lazy and because he seems afraid many times to put the guests most genuinely in need of fact and statistic based challenges on the actual panel, the only time we seem to get real debate anymore are those last few minutes on Overtime.  It’s what happened with Milo, and it’s what happened tonight with Colion Noir.

 

Bill is often so fawning on those one-on-one top of the show segments with his “oh look at how brave you are coming on my show” when actual bravery would require those guests having an actual informed discussion with someone who can intelligently challenge their statements instead of mostly just serving as an echo chamber— in other words, certain panel members, but definitely not Bill himself.  Speaking as a longtime viewer, I’m not watching this to see Bill play bootlicking courtesan to people like Milo, George Will, and Colion Noir; I’m watching because this is supposed to be an interesting and lively debate, which is why there is a panel.  Maybe I should just stop watching the main show and just watch Overtime, since that’s where all the action is these days.

[DrScottie]

Does anybody remember Steve Schmidt being on Real Time last week? I don't. 

[Maherjunkie]

He was referring to a tweet, but he is a frequent guest.

[DrScottie]

23 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

He was referring to a tweet, but he is a frequent guest.

Thanks. I had misinterpreted what Bill was saying. It was about the fact that he has decided to side with the Democrats. I haven't gotten a lot sleep lately. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Aside from the nonsensical top of the show interview (Really?  Noir doesn’t know what a loophole means?)Based on gun nuts who think stricter gun laws = “They want to take my guns away!!!’/repeal the Second Amendment!!! And what animals look like after being killed by AR15s, I don’t believe that only one bullet at time comes out of those things, this was a Good and solid show.  Noir may have spoken calmly, but he still came off as tone deaf and insulting to those that don’t like or have guns.

I appreciated there was no screeching or talking over and that Neera was able to talk without being shushed.

I thought New Rules was good and he made me laugh. 

But please SHUT UP about Rich Corporate Dems not giving enough money. You think it’s not enough, put YOUR ? where YOUR mouth is and donate!

I haven’t seen Schmidt on this show in forever, so I wouldn’t call him a frequent guest.

Edited June 23, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don’t believe that only one bullet at time comes out of those things,

What I don't think he was dating was that they might come out one at a time, but they come out really fast, and if you buy a bump stock, they come out even faster. So yeah, I don't really care what the AR stands for. Saying people need to know more about the issue is fine, but people don't grant make their minds up on facts. 

While I kind of agree that out right banning isn't going to solve anything, making just a little bit harder could help a lot. What gun nuts (his words) fail to grasp is the nuance of the issue. It's always the same thing with them - they either think even the smallest loophole is going to lead to all guns being taken away, so you can't do anything about anything. It's so obtuse. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by ganesh

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just watched Overtime and could not stop ????? at Noir. NO ONE is saying “ban all guns.” Which he seems to think stricter gun laws mean. And equating people who “die in car ACCIDENTS” ( a direct quote) with people who “intentionally” MURDER others with guns just proved what a tone deaf MORON Noir is. So just holding a gun and shooting it at a gun range gave him all the feels and this changed his stance on guns? Alrighty then.

But go Neera!!!!’????? 

[iMonrey]

I want to give Colion Noir the benefit of the doubt that he's sincere. But his perception reeks of paranoia no matter how calmly he expresses it. His answer to everything is "my right to own a gun, my right to own a gun." No matter what someone says he hears "they're going to take my guns away." And I find it highly ironic for a black man to sit there and say this country was "founded on" gun rights. The country was also founded on slavery so maybe you should think again buddy.

What really made me mad though was Bill because when the started talking about arming teachers and brought up the Parkland shooting, Bill said the armed guard on duty at that school "didn't do his job." Wrong. He did do his job. Gun nuts seem to think he should have rushed blindly into the school like Rambo. What this guy proves is that having armed guards isn't going to stop mass school shootings. People aren't action heroes. You can arm all the teachers and put armed guards all around the campus, and there will still be shootings. And then the shills for the NRA will just say "well, they didn't do their jobs." 

Neera did do a good job challenging him on Overtime and that's basically where he sort of fell apart, retreating into tiresome excuses and outright lies, like saying we have more gun laws now than ever before. Wrong. We have fewer and fewer as guns are deregulated state by state. What we do have is more guns than ever before.

I did like the mid-show bit about Melania's coats, especially the one that said "My other coat is made of 101 dalmatians."

[b2H]

I think I am glad my DVR failed to capture this show.  

[attica]

I was snorting in derision the preciousness of the whole 'if you don't know about guns you can't legislate them' argument Noir was making. Quick, sir: correctly identify , oh, say, a salpinx and describe how it functions in the female reproductive process.  Step off and have a seat, then. 

As much as I'm sympathetic to black people wanting to arm themselves in this country, the NRA isn't actually on Noir's side. (See their silence on the murder of legally armed Philando Castile ). They just wanna sell guns, and more guns, and Noir is a useful tool.

As a person who appreciates the psychological effects of chocolate, I sniffed st Bill's ignorance thereof. 

[FortKnox]

don’t really care for most of the stuff that Colion Noir makes for the NRA, but I do have to say that he is one of the better spokespersons for the the pro-gun community. He doesn’t resort to fear mongering, or spouting paranoid conspiracy theories like so many in our community tend to embrace. Instead when he engages people in public about the pro / anti – gundivide he always uses well thought out and well reasoned statements to support any argument he makes. Between them Colion Noir and Rob Pincus might well be the best public faces the the pro-gun community has.

[crookedjackson44]

The drugs-are-good described some clinical experience of getting really high with a trained psychotherapist, but it was very like descriptions of spiritual journeys take by human beings with shamans and like for at least the past 10,000 years or so.

[formerlyfreedom]

Again, as mod noted in the last few weeks of episode topics; discussion here is to be related to the episode. Going off topic can include citing outside sources as arguments against the show topics, or using a small bit of the episode to go into larger discussion of personal politics. Posts will be removed, and repeat offenders may be warned. Thank you for your assistance.

[SpiritSong]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

I did like the mid-show bit about Melania's coats, especially the one that said "My other coat is made of 101 dalmatians."

That was one of the funniest mid-show bits I've seen in a while.

I liked Michael Pollan's segment. And I was rolling my eyes at Josh Barro's defense of the two party system. I doubt he'd want to go the rest of his life eating only chicken or fish.

[ganesh]

16 hours ago, Victor the Crab said:

You don't fucking get it, do you Bill? Recessions hurt a LOT of people. Even those who didn't vote for Drumpf because of the damage he would unleash. A recession under the big fat cheese can easily turn into a depression because of the policies he enacted. Would you still be rooting for that?!! And besides, there's no guarantee that Drumpf's numb headed supporters would turn on him if such an economic downturn would happen. They'll just accept the right's accusations that it was all Obama's fault.

I found Bill's new rules to be rather naive precisely because of this. If there is a recession this is exactly what the narrative will be. And, his own monologue underscored this when he showed the quotes from all the right wingers taking his statement and running with it in all directions. I doubt the people to whom these right wingers are speaking are tuning in to your show for a clarification, Bill. 

I have to also call BS on the guy who was "proud of voting libertarian". Gary Johnson is an idiot. Your vote was cowardly. 

[cali1981]

Mr. Noir was an absolute joke.  The fact that he's black, a lawyer and presents in a calm and "reasonable" manner covered up the fact that, at the end of the day, he did nothing more than parrot all of the NRA's absurd arguments against any kind of even modest gun control measures.  His minimizing the damage that "one person with a gun" can do was insane and offensive.  I thought that Neerea called him out and made him look foolish.  Maybe Noir should, as Josh Barrow suggested, look at the actual data.  He would quickly learn how much death one person with a gun, be it an AR-15 or a 9mm handgun, can sow. He would have also discovered the disparity between whites and blacks when it comes to the various Stand Your Ground laws.   Like others here, I was disturbed by Bill's interview with him.  Sometimes, Bill, in the name of "fairness" practices the very political correctness that he decries every week.  He would have had every right to tear this guy a new one.  Even during the Overtime segment, one blowhard and another guest's fencing with him cut down the time that a very good panel of guests had to say anything. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by cali1981

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Just watched Overtime and could not stop ????? at Noir. NO ONE is saying “ban all guns.” Which he seems to think stricter gun laws mean. And equating people who “die in car ACCIDENTS” ( a direct quote) with people who “intentionally” MURDER others with guns just proved what a tone deaf MORON Noir is. So just holding a gun and shooting it at a gun range gave him all the feels and this changed his stance on guns? Alrighty then.

But go Neera!!!!’????? 

Wow did she immediately jump in on that. And that's exactly what needs to be done - he said something demonstrably false and was quickly corrected. 

As soon as he started with the "it's funny because people always go to stricter gun laws." You don't know nearly as much as you think you do, and being condescending about your mania isn't a good look. 

"So I should give up my right to own a firearm?" Dude - stop cowering in fear for one minute about your precious guns being taken from you and listen to people who actually want to address the issue in a reasonable way. 

And of course the "people die by _________, but we're not going to ban __________." This is just a variation of whataboutism. Cars aren't manufactured to *strictly* kill people. A gun has *one* function. You can't get yourself past that, then you have a problem and you think your gun is somehow a solution. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by ganesh

[FortKnox]

I will give Maher credit for giving the otherside their turn to speak. If all our political opponents were like Maher, as infuriating as he might be, political discourse would be much better today.

I don’t agree with a lot of Bill Maher’s politics, but I have noticed that he tends to be a lot more fair to all sides of a debate then a lot of people in the media are. He might be completely opposed to what one of his guests has to say, but he will generally let them say it.

Maher was clearly intimidated by Noir, not so much in a physical way, but that he was fully aware Noir would be debating him at an intellectual level.

And that was a good thing.

He was absolutely afraid of him and with good reason – he was completely outmatched, both intellectually and factually.

What shocked me most was that Bill had the courage to have Colion on the show knowing full well that he didn’t stand a chance of talking him onto a corner and “winning” the debate.

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So just holding a gun and shooting it at a gun range gave him all the feels and this changed his stance on guns? Alrighty then.

I didn't get that either. Ok? So I guess saying "what if I need a gun to defend myself" (as he did in OT) was just hot air. You shot a gun and you liked it. Now you own some. That doesn't have anything to do with anything anyone was saying in the OT discussion. 
 

It's like you have to talk to them like children, like Neera was doing - we're not taking your guns, no one wants to ban them. You could hear in her voice how exhausting it was for her to have to say it over and over. 

[attica]

I read a while ago that neurologists have identified the area of the brain that distinguishes Self from Not Self. It isn't developed in infants; shows up in toddlerhood. It's like a switch, and can be turned off by a number of things: meditation  (one with the universe*), prayer (one with god), and some pharma-things (what Pollan called here "ego dissolution").  So I was interested to hear that turning off the switch shows therapeutic benefits, and I hope the research he was referencing continues.

*One of my favorite bad jokes: What did the Zen Buddhist say to the hot dog vendor? Make me one with everything!

[27bored]

Aside from the nonsensical top of the show interview (Really?  Noir doesn’t know what a loophole means?)Based on gun nuts who think stricter gun laws = “They want to take my guns away!!!’/repeal the Second Amendment!!! And what animals look like after being killed by AR15s, I don’t believe that only one bullet at time comes out of those things, this was a Good and solid show.  Noir may have spoken calmly, but he still came off as tone deaf and insulting to those that don’t like or have guns.

Noir is a lawyer, so I'm sure he knows that words matter (meaning making a distinction between how words are used in laymen terms versus what they mean in a legal or policy sense) and he wanted to see what Bill was talking about. And Bill admitted he likes effing with people's minds.

Everybody knows what a loophole is, but legally, a loophole describes an unintended or unforeseen consequence in the construction of a law. The issue is, the exception that gun shows work under was intentional -- not just because it was crucial to actually getting universal background checks, but because of the limitations of the federal government. Basically, gun shows allow gun transactions between two private citizens within a state. It has nothing to do with the venue and everything to do with the people involved. So there's a difference between Joe Blow selling one of his hunting rifles to Billy Bob next door, and Billy Bob going to buy a brand-new hunting rifle from Dick's Sporting Goods. In the former case, the federal government has no way of knowing it took place, and they have no way of enforcing a "background check" on Billy Bob prior to him buying it.

Bill might want to familiarize himself with how the "gun show loophole" works before asking someone to defend it. I thought it was silly how he said the term "gun show" sounds like Annie Oakley. Uh, it's a show in that sellers are showing their merchandise, douche. It's no different than a Spa and Pool Show or RV and Boat Show or Car Show. Furniture stores have a "showroom".

[OpalNightstream]

Neeras laugh is so annoying.

[FortKnox]

Noir let go unchallenged Maher’s perpetuation of the gun show loophole myth. Every law that applies outside of a gun, still applies inside of a gun show. Federal firearms licensees must conduct a background check regardless whether they’re selling at a gun show or in their own gun store.

What is really meant by gun show loophole is the fact that federal law does not subject all firearms sales, whether private or from a licensed dealer, to background checks. So what? Nine states composing a quarter of the nation’s population impose universal background checks per state law. So there is that.

Aside from that, background check or not, it is still all kinds of illegal to sell or buy a gun if the would-be buyer is prohibited by law from buying or possessing a firearm. That is, if they couldn’t pass a background check, it’s illegal to sell to them, anyway, regardless whether there’s a background check conducted.

So what’s a background check going to do? Nothing. You’re either going to sell that gunillegally, or you’re not. A background check requirement is just another law to break while they’re already breaking several others.

Moreover, criminals don’t get their guns through legitimate sources, anyway. They steal them. They buy them on the black market. They get them from friends and family. All if this is illegal if the person is a probited possessor. They get someone to buy them from a legitimate source on their behalf, which is also a crime. So what gooed does a background check do? Law abiding people adhere to them. Criminals don’t.

Noir failed to address this and allowed Maher’s deception that there’s some loophole out to persist.

What universal background checks really means is banning private sales of guns, since only FFLs may access the background check system. That’s the real goal, because then the government can choke off licensed sales and all of gun sales because they control who gets and keeps their federal firearms license.

Noir missed this opportunity and instead allowed Maher to make it look like the NRA was for background checks before they were against them. Thatmakes them look foolish, because the issue is more complicated than that.

[alias1]

I think Michael Smerconish's comment that we need a 3 party system is misguided.  I agree with Josh Barro.  I wish someone had pointed out to Michael Smerconish that Bill Weld, the vice presidential candidate on the Independent Ticket, decided at the end to vote for Hilary Clinton instead of his own party.

[Hanahope]

I agree with Bill that given our 2 party system, and non-parliamentary system, a vote for a third party candidate is just hurting the leading candidate.  Sure, more people need to vote, that goes without saying.  But in at least 2 of the 3 states that barely went to trump, votes for the third party candidate would have given the states to Hillary, and I believe that includes Smerconish's state of PA.

trump may lead us into a recession regardless.  the tarriffs are hurting people, the tax cuts aren't helping workers, and gas keeps going up.