Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This episode triggered every bitter Dean girl feeling I have.

Sam using the Michael spear is a big no for me.

No mention of Dean's connection to Michael or any mention of his past.

I feel the same way. I'm trying to hold on to hope that the Lance is not the actual Michael sword. But yeah, I was pretty pissed about that.  I feel ya.

When Dean said "Michael Michael?" I thought Jensen gave that a moment of like oh shit....kind of like the moment he stopped and hesitated before descending back into Hell.

But yeah that felt like a big fuck you to Dean's Michael Sword arc. But fucking LUCIFER IS STILL AROUND

[Aeryn13]

Perez probably needs to be paid extra to even mention Dean in his scripts. It`s quite apparent he doesn`t give a crap about the character.

I knew nothing about Michael and Dean`s connection would be mentioned. Noone on this current writing stuff probably even knows about it, let alone care.

What bugged me most was the Cain redux and his siblings who suddenly come out of nowhere. Was this one just introduced so Sam could kill a YED/Cain with Michael`s weapon? My god, that`s like checking a lot of boxes for one small scene. 

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I knew nothing about Michael and Dean`s connection would be mentioned. Noone on this current writing stuff probably even knows about it, let alone care.

What bugged me most was the Cain redux and his siblings who suddenly come out of nowhere. Was this one just introduced so Sam could kill a YED/Cain with Michael`s weapon? My god, that`s like checking a lot of boxes for one small scene. 

Yeah, the Bitter Deangirl in me will never be able to handle watching this episode. And they gave it to Speight too. Figures.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

What bugged me most was the Cain redux and his siblings who suddenly come out of nowhere

I actually found it odd that there would be just one yellow-eyed demon.  So, I liked that they gave a back-story to that.  I don't really see that it had anything to do with Cain.  Cain was a Knight of Hell.  these are Princes of Hell.  And like Ramael said, it's just a title someone gave them.  It doesn't really mean anything.

[Hana Chan]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But fucking LUCIFER IS STILL AROUND

Not that it means anything. Sam was supposed to be Lucifer's one true vessel and it seems like he can joyride in whoever he damn well wants to so both the boys had their biblical mytharcs pissed on.

[sarthaz]

Just want to thank @ahrtee and @DeeDee79 for their thoughtful responses to my rant.  

@ahrtee, I agree with you that the characters are well-written.  In that regard, I cannot really complain.  And you reminded me of someone I'd forgotten: George "Goofer Dust" from Crossroad Blues.  He was a really good one-off character who wasn't just a background doctor who happened to be black.  He was a little gruff and angry, but as you point out, most of the male characters in the show are that way; and it's hard to blame him given the circumstances.

And as I type this, I'm remembering a good rebuttal to my argument: Joshua.  Can't believe I forgot about him.

@DeeDee79, I disagree with you on the particulars of these characters (Jake can be singled out for cowardly stabbing Sam in the back and fully embracing his evil powers; and Henrickson was a jerk to everyone in every scene for 3.5 of his 4 episodes), but I see and appreciate your overall point.  Thank you for posting.

I think I'd feel better about this if -- in 12 years -- we could point to one semi-recurring black character who wasn't intense and angry all the time.  Charlie, Jody, Jo, Lisa, Garth, Tessa, Hannah, Ash, Kate, Amelia, Donna, Pamela, Andy, Aaron, Harry, Ed, Ron, Harry Groener's professor guy ... etc.  The list goes on and on with recurring kind-hearted white people with unique personalities (not saying they're all well-written).  Even Kevin and Mrs. Tran fall into this mold.  Just once, can't they go to the local college and find a black professor to help them?

Also, I think it bothers me the way they've doubled-up on douchebags.  There aren't many black characters on the show to begin with, but they find room to make two of the biggest dick-angels of all time black people (Raphael twice!)?  Same with Gordon and Henricksen -- different sides of the same single-minded obsessive hunter trying to take down our heroes.  Just feels like the show has kind of a narrow view of what a black man can be, even if the character is well-written and brilliantly acted.

Anyway, I hear both of your perspectives and appreciate them, but ultimately I think I just want to see a black family man from the suburbs who isn't a well-trained assassin. :)

[Demented Daisy]

9 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I think I'd feel better about this if -- in 12 years -- we could point to one semi-recurring black character who wasn't intense and angry all the time.

Billie the Reaper?  Intense, perhaps, but I don't recall ever seeing her angry.  *shrug*

10 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Jake can be singled out for cowardly stabbing Sam in the back and fully embracing his evil powers

I give Jake a pass because he was trying to protect his mom and baby sister.  We've seen Sam and Dean do some pretty dumb (and borderline evil) stuff in the name of protecting/saving each other.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I give Jake a pass because he was trying to protect his mom and baby sister.

IDK.  I don't think YED brought up his mom and baby sister until after he had killed Sam.  Not to mention the fact, if he had shot YED with the Colt wouldn't that have saved them?  Wouldn't he have at least thought so?  He changed his mind about shooting him because Azazel told him that the army wouldn't take him back and his life was over. 

[Demented Daisy]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

IDK.  I don't think YED brought up his mom and baby sister until after he had killed Sam.

Not that we saw.  But we know that Azazel and Jake had interactions before he killed Sam.  Azazel could have threatened them then.  We don't know.

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not to mention the fact, if he had shot YED with the Colt wouldn't that have saved them?  Wouldn't he have at least thought so?  He changed his mind about shooting him because Azazel told him that the army wouldn't take him back and his life was over. 

And that his family would be protected:

Quote

 

JAKE Why me?

YED Oh, Jake. It's got to be you. I've been waiting for you for a very long time. You're my leader. You open that crypt, and you will have your army.

JAKE You're talking about the end of the world.

YED No, not the end— the beginning... a better world, where your family will be protected. More than that. They'll be royalty. Buddy boy, you have the chance to get in on the ground floor of a thrilling opportunity. Whaddya say? It's your call.

 

IMO, he did it all to save his family, which makes sense, since it's one of the major (if not THE) theme of the show.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

32 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Just once, can't they go to the local college and find a black professor to help them?

I think this would be lovely, and I'd like to see it also.  A semi-recurring character (maybe at University of Kansas?) would be nice.

33 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Henricksen -- different sides of the same single-minded obsessive hunter trying to take down our heroes.  

Well, to be fair, the single minded Secret Service man who imprisoned our Heroes at the end of LOTUS and wanted them dead and tracked them down to kill them - without even benefit of giving them a trial, like I think Henricksen would have - was a white guy.

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Just once, can't they go to the local college and find a black professor to help them?

If you want just once, then yes: What Is and What Should Never Be.

[Wayward Son]

My unpopular opinion for today is that I have actually enjoyed both of Davy Perez's scripts so far :).

Actually I've enjoyed all the new writers this season and feel the show is beginning to regain a sense of continuity it has lacked since the Carver era began. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

I think it would be better if Jensen got the time off for Perez` scripts. Jensen would like it for having a vacation, Perez wouldn`t have to bother grudgingly typing him in here and there and I would like it because I could happily skip it.  

[ILoveReading]

Quote

Sam also has a history with hell hounds, as he killed one in S8.

I know that Sam has a history with them.  My problem is Sam's history is acknowledged.  Dean's isn't.  When Sam went to the cage last year, we had a 3 episode arc that revolved around Sam's time there.  Plus, a direct confrontation with Lucifer.  Dean has been to hell and it wasn't even brought up or acknowledged.  Jensen had to add his own touches there, with that brief hesitation. 

Last year, the show bent over backwards to make make Michael completely irrelevant and ignore everything about him.  Even making him weak.  Now, when we finally get multiple Michael mentions and not once did anyone acknowledge that Dean had a connection to him. 

I don't care that Sam killed the demon.  I cared that he did it with Michael's weapon.  What's the point of bring it up if you aren't going to mention Dean's history. 

Its the same when Cas asked when Dean had it worse.  Why just have Dean stand there like he can't think of anything.   Metatron stabbing him, getting mauled by hellhounds, strung up on meat hook in hell, not to mention 40 years there. 

I just don't understand why they seem to be allegic lately they seem to be so against specific reference to Dean's past. 

[sarthaz]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If you want just once, then yes: What Is and What Should Never Be.

Busted!  Just twice I'd like to see ...

[RulerofallIsurvey]

54 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Last year, the show bent over backwards to make make Michael completely irrelevant and ignore everything about him.  Even making him weak.  Now, when we finally get multiple Michael mentions and not once did anyone acknowledge that Dean had a connection to him. 

I really don't like what the show did to Michael, especially making him weak.  So I completely agree with you there.

This is probably going to be hugely unpopular but I really don't understand why some people think that Dean has this extra-super-special connection to Michael.  Because he doesn't.  I don't think he ever really did.  

1. Yes, Michael appeared to Dean (while inhabiting a young John Winchester) and talked to him.  That's no different than all the other angels who have appeared to either both of them or individually and talked to them.
2. Michael told Dean that he was his 'one true vessel'.  Remember, that's also when Michael and Lucifer were trying to start the Apocalypse, so that could very well have been a misrepresentation on Mike's part.  Seems to me he would have said anything to get Dean to agree, until they revived Adam and got him to do it.  Also, even though Sam was supposed to be Lucifer's 'one true vessel'*, Lucifer didn't have any problem inhabiting old Jeff and knocking up Kelly, did he?  Nah, seems to me all that 'one true vessel' stuff was exaggerated baloney just to get the stupid simians to do what the angels wanted.
3. Michael never actually possessed Dean like Lucifer possessed Sam and Castiel.  So it's not like Dean ever spent any amount of time in intimate contact with Michael.  Whereas in fact, Sam spent all that time in the cage with both Lucifer and Michael.   Just based on time spent with Michael, I'd say Sam has more of a connection to him now than Dean does.  

And who knows, even if the 'one true vessel' thing was true (which I doubt) now that after Dean's had the Mark of Cain (which was originally given to Lucifer, remember) and been a demon, he is probably no longer suitable as a vessel  for the highest ranking archangel.  Ergo: connection broke.

*And I'm really Okay with Sam not being Lucifer's 'one true vessel' anymore either.

Edited February 17, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
wow my grammar and punctuation was bad!

[Demented Daisy]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I can also see how someone might not feel the same way who simply likes a well-written story that incorporates important pieces of canon into it, especially when that canon includes very important information about one of the main characters on the show-unless going forward they either don't care about that info and/or it's not in their plans to bring any of that up anyway-which is why I think there was no mention of it. But I can see how one might not feel the same way if one doesn't care that much about that character's previous storyline and/or its continuing to be dismissed/"forgotten"/ not incorporated into the story by the writers every time something even related to it comes up again/now. 

Meh.  Dean's not one to talk about his past wounds.  Him never talking about what the hellhounds did to him doesn't seem particularly out of character to me, nor does it seem like a writing fail.

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Just based on time spent with Michael, I'd say Sam has more of a connection to him now than Dean does.  

I'm sure that the writers are going to agree with you on this. The writing is on the wall.

[Demented Daisy]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This is probably going to be hugely unpopular

Not with me.  :-)  You know, whenever they mention Michael, I halfway expect Dean to roll his eyes and say, "Not him again!"

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Meh.  Dean's not one to talk about his past wounds.  Him never talking about what the hellhounds did to him doesn't seem particularly out of character to me, nor does it seem like a writing fail.

That actually wasn't the canon that I was referring to-it was being named Michael's OTV at one time-but you seem to be inside the writers' minds better than me there.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Myrelle

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm sure that the writers are going to agree with you on this. The writing is on the wall.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I seriously doubt (and would side-eye if they went there) that Sam is any kind of suitable vessel for Michael now either.  They might gloss over Dean's history there, but they sure won't forget the demon-blood thing when it comes to Sam.  Even though that's been years ago.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I really don't like what the show did to Michael, especially making him weak.  So I completely agree with you there.

This is probably going to be hugely unpopular but I really don't understand why some people think that Dean has this extra-super-special connection to Michael.  Because he doesn't.  I don't think he ever really did.  

1. Yes, Michael appeared to Dean (while inhabiting a young John Winchester) and talked to him.  That's no different than all the other angels who have appeared to either both of them or individually and talked to them.
2. Michael told Dean that he was his 'one true vessel'.  Remember, that's also when Michael and Lucifer were trying to start the Apocalypse, so that could very well have been a misrepresentation on Mike's part.  Seems to me he would have said anything to get Dean to agree, until they revived Adam and got him to do it.  Also, even though Sam was supposed to be Lucifer's 'one true vessel'*, Lucifer didn't have any problem inhabiting old Jeff and knocking up Kelly, did he?  Nah, seems to me all that 'one true vessel' stuff was exaggerated baloney just to get the stupid simians to do what the angels wanted.
3. Michael never actually possessed Dean like Lucifer possessed Sam and Castiel.  So it's not like Dean ever spent any amount of time in intimate contact with Michael.  Whereas in fact, Sam spent all that time in the cage with both Lucifer and Michael.   Just based on time spent with Michael, I'd say Sam has more of a connection to him now than Dean does.  

And who knows, even if the 'one true vessel' thing was true (which I doubt) now that after Dean's had the Mark of Cain (which was originally given to Lucifer, remember) and been a demon, he is probably no longer suitable as a vessel  for the highest ranking archangel.  Ergo: connection broke.

*And I'm really Okay with Sam not being Lucifer's 'one true vessel' anymore either.

But at least they mentioned Sam's past history, and as I said, Sam even got an episode where he got to directly confront his past with Lucifer.  A simple acknowledgment that Dean has a past history with Michael would been enough. No matter how big or small people see that connection it was there. Instead the show acted like it never was.  That's what grates.      The same with the trip to hell last season.  Jensen was the only one who remembered Dean had been there too. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

But at least they mentioned Sam's past history, and as I said, Sam even got an episode where he got to directly confront his past with Lucifer.  A simple acknowledgment that Dean has a past history with Michael would been enough. No matter how big or small people see that connection it was there. Instead the show acted like it never was.  That's what grates.      The same with the trip to hell last season.  Jensen was the only one who remembered Dean had been there too. 

But again, what Past History with Michael does Dean really have?  A couple conversations at best?  Well they don't reference Dean's history with Zachariah any more either - and I think those two actually had more interaction.  

I do agree with the Dean in Hell history though.  That bugs me every time that's neglected.  I think that should be referenced, remembered, and honored way more than it is.

[Aeryn13]

I`m pretty sure we could have an episode dealing with the Mark of Cain now and they would not mention that Dean ever had it. 

But with Sam, Perez was interested enough to dig back to the visions from Season 1 and 2. The level of investment in both characters is starkly different from the writers. 

[Demented Daisy]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

That actually wasn't the canon that I was referring to-it was being named Michael's OTV at one time-but you seem to be inside the writers' minds better than me there.

Then perhaps you should have included what you were referring to in your post.  The discussion (at the time) was hell hounds.  Forgive me for misunderstanding you.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But again, what Past History with Michael does Dean really have?  A couple conversations at best?  Well they don't reference Dean's history with Zachariah any more either - and I think those two actually had more interaction.  

I do agree with the Dean in Hell history though.  That bugs me every time that's neglected.  I think that should be referenced, remembered, and honored way more than it is.

That at one point he was Michael's vessel.   Like I said, no matter how big or small there is still a connection.   Also its Dean's history.  It would be nice to see it mentioned or even just acknowledged.

[Demented Daisy]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The same with the trip to hell last season.  Jensen was the only one who remembered Dean had been there too. 

 

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I do agree with the Dean in Hell history though.  That bugs me every time that's neglected.  I think that should be referenced, remembered, and honored way more than it is.

How?  No, really, how do you expect the show to do this?

Personally, I've seen enough man pain from Dean.  I don't need to see more.   

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That at one point he was Michael's vessel. 

Actually, no he wasn't.  He was a potential vessel.  But he never actually served as a vessel.  I disagree about the connection.  I don't think there is one anymore, if there ever was.  But I have no problem having Dean's history mentioned.  

2 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

How?  No, really, how do you expect the show to do this?

I have no idea.  :)  No really.  Just seems to me someone (maybe Cas) could make some casual mention about Dean's time in Hell the next time there's an episode where they have to go down there with Crowley or something.  I mean, Isham casually mentioned that Cas survived Hell in Lily Sunder - but there was no mention that Cas survived Hell in order to get Dean out.  

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Then perhaps you should have included what you were referring to in your post.  The discussion (at the time) was hell hounds.  Forgive me for misunderstanding you.

My bad. I should have included the entire post in the quote.

3 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Personally, I've seen enough man pain from Dean.  I don't need to see more.

And I've seen enough manpain from Sam-especially over his hell time. And I certainly didn't need to see more of that. Oh well, it's good that one of us is getting our wish, I guess.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

How?  No, really, how do you expect the show to do this?

Mention it at least? Doesn`t mean that Dean is "whining" or something.

I had more than enough of Lucifer and Sam and Lucifer and yet they did a mini-arc of them even last year. Because god forbid anything forget any of Sam`s mytharcs. 

[ILoveReading]

Quote

Actually, no he wasn't.  He was a potential vessel.

That for me was a connection. We can just agree to disagree.

As for Dean's hell.  Cas could have mentioned he looked better than Dean, or we could have had a flashback last ep, or even had Dean and Sam talk about it before Sam went into the cage, instead of showing us Sam going in based on Sully's advice.

Quote

Personally, I've seen enough man pain from Dean.  I don't need to see more.   

I felt the exact same way about Sam last season. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

How?  No, really, how do you expect the show to do this?

 

 

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Just seems to me someone (maybe Cas) could make some casual mention about Dean's time in Hell the next time there's an episode where they have to go down there with Crowley or something.

How about a flashback episode that would include that rescue. So we could actually see how it happened.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Personally, I've seen enough man pain from Dean.  I don't need to see more.

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I felt the exact same way about Sam last season. 

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And I've seen enough manpain from Sam-especially over his hell time. And I certainly didn't need to see more of that. Oh well, it's good that one of us is getting our wish, I guess.

Welp, I guess the lesson is: Please All, and You Will Please None!  ;)  http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/62.html

[Demented Daisy]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Just seems to me someone (maybe Cas) could make some casual mention about Dean's time in Hell the next time there's an episode where they have to go down there with Crowley or something.

 

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Mention it at least? Doesn`t mean that Dean is "whining" or something.

How would you like to see Dean react to that?

This is something I don't understand.  If someone were to bring up one of the worst times of my life, especially in a casual, off-hand way, it would not feel like "honoring" it.  It would feel like rubbing salt in the wound.  

 

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I had more than enough of Lucifer and Sam and Lucifer and yet they did a mini-arc of them even last year. Because god forbid anything forget any of Sam`s mytharcs. 

 

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And I've seen enough manpain from Sam

 

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I felt the exact same way about Sam last season. 

We're not talking about Sam.  This is not a tit-for-tat situation.  Thoughts/feelings about Sam are immaterial in a discussion about Dean, IMO.

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

How about a flashback episode that would include that rescue. So we could actually see how it happened.

The actors have aged too much for that to happen.  Besides, what would you expect to see, other than hand-to-hand combat?

[Diane]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

My unpopular opinion for today is that I have actually enjoyed both of Davy Perez's scripts so far :).

Actually I've enjoyed all the new writers this season and feel the show is beginning to regain a sense of continuity it has lacked since the Carver era began. 

I don't actually think that  this is unpopular I also have enjoyed both his episodes. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Diane

[Aeryn13]

Quote

We're not talking about Sam.  This is not a tit-for-tat situation.  Thoughts/feelings about Sam are immaterial in a discussion about Dean, IMO.

Not for me because it is a direct comparism. If they ignored ALL the character`s history and never mentioned anything ever again, I would still find it weird and bad writing but at least I could see that they simply have no interest in their own previous myth.

Only ignoring Dean`s makes me ask myself why those stories are considered so lame and uninteresting? Is it the character himself that just garners no interest for the writers? What makes him such a bad character apparently to write for in that regard? Is all they see in him some crass buffon for comic relief or the occasional angsty scene? What?     

 

Quote

How would you like to see Dean react to that?

This is something I don't understand.  If someone were to bring up one of the worst times of my life, especially in a casual, off-hand way, it would not feel like "honoring" it.  It would feel like rubbing salt in the wound.  

Dean doesn`t even need to be present. I just want it acknowledged. Sam and cold fish Mary could discuss it for all I care.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I think I'd feel better about this if -- in 12 years -- we could point to one semi-recurring black character who wasn't intense and angry all the time.  Charlie, Jody, Jo, Lisa, Garth, Tessa, Hannah, Ash, Kate, Amelia, Donna, Pamela, Andy, Aaron, Harry, Ed, Ron, Harry Groener's professor guy ... etc.  The list goes on and on with recurring kind-hearted white people with unique personalities (not saying they're all well-written).

I see your point, but just want to add that most of the men in this list are pretty much mostly comic relief, used to lighten the intensity of the main story.  I have a feeling writers might be afraid that that might seem insulting.  

The show  has a history of intense, angry, single-minded characters.  It kind of goes with the story they're telling.  And yeah, I'd enjoy a recurring college prof that they could use as a substitute-Bobby for translations and pulling answers out of nowhere.  But the show has been heading more and more into intense and depressing territory for years, so most of the characters are in that mold--except for comic relief.  

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

We're not talking about Sam.  This is not a tit-for-tat situation.  Thoughts/feelings about Sam are immaterial in a discussion about Dean, IMO.

I thought this was the Bitterness thread. I'm bitter about seeing Sam's manpain from hell ad nauseum since s6 while Dean's hell time is barely even mentioned. I don't think I've broken any rules.

3 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

 

The actors have aged too much for that to happen.  Besides, what would you expect to see, other than hand-to-hand combat?

Jensen can look 10 years younger than his actual age if necessary and even if that wasn't the case there's computer technology now that can take care of that. And I'd love to see that hand-to hand combat in hell and I'd really love to see how that handprint scar came to be there that Dean had when he came backin Lazarus Rising.

I'm really wanting this episode now.

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Welp, I guess the lesson is: Please All, and You Will Please None!  ;)  http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/62.html

Precisely.  If you are only watching for one brother, then any perceived slight to that character is further exacerbated by comparison to any perceived positive moment for the other.

My unpopular opinion: The show is truly pro BOTH brothers.  Some writers may connect more with Sam or Dean but that doesn't make them pro-one to the point of excluding the other.  Robbie Thompson was fond of saying Jared and Jensen smell 'like baby Jesus'.  He meant that with true love and affection for both actors and characters.  Following his tweets, and talking in person with him, he was a show fanboy of both.  I don't see any of these new writers being overly biased and most have made plenty of tweets/instagrams that indicate they are not just thrilled to have a job but thrilled to be working on a good show.  

But, more importantly, in response to the above quote, if you can't enjoy when the brother who is not your favorite gets some emphasis, then I don't see how this show will be anything but a disappointment a fair amount of time.  It's designed to show both strength and weaknesses of both brothers.  Depending on your POV, a particular feature is more or less important.  Hence all the opinions.  But IMUO (In My Unpopular Opinion), there is no objective data that says "X writer loves or hates Y".

Edited February 17, 2017 by SueB

[Myrelle]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Welp, I guess the lesson is: Please All, and You Will Please None!  ;)  

Where it concerns this show IMO the lesson is Please some and you will please some-just make sure that it's not those fans who would like to see Dean's history acknowledged better within the scripts.

[Demented Daisy]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not for me because it is a direct comparism. If they ignored ALL the character`s history and never mentioned anything ever again, I would still find it weird and bad writing but at least I could see that they simply have no interest in their own previous myth.

Only ignoring Dean`s makes me ask myself why those stories are considered so lame and uninteresting? Is it the character himself that just garners no interest for the writers? What makes him such a bad character apparently to write for in that regard? Is all they see in him some crass buffon for comic relief or the occasional angsty scene? What?     

We'll have to agree to disagree here because, even if the show wanted to go there, I don't think they could, based on Dean's characterization.  

How many times has Sam tried to get Dean to open up?  It's not in his character to talk about the things that have hurt him, whether physical or emotional.  The show has made that abundantly clear.  He's not going to talk about Hell.

Now, re: being Michael's vessel.  I don't think Dean gives a damn about Michael or being his vessel.  I don't think bringing it up serves any purpose other than "member berries".  If they were going to make it relevant again, make Dean Michael's vessel again, then it would matter, IMO.  But as long as they don't talk about it, I assume it's not relevant to the story they're telling.  And that doesn't bother me.

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I thought this was the Bitterness thread. I'm bitter about seeing Sam's manpain from hell ad nauseum since s6 while Dean's hell time is barely even mentioned. I don't think I've broken any rules.

Never suggested you did.  I said that IMO, it's irrelevant to the discussion of how the show treats Dean.

[Aeryn13]

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We'll have to agree to disagree here because, even if the show wanted to go there, I don't think they could, based on Dean's characterization.  

How many times has Sam tried to get Dean to open up?  It's not in his character to talk about the things that have hurt him, whether physical or emotional.  The show has made that abundantly clear.  He's not going to talk about Hell.

It doesn`t have to come from Dean. But it would have to come from the writers, of course, and that will never happen. 

Which brings me back to my wish to giving Jensen the 8 days off when a Perez script is filmed. And to be honest a Dabb-script as well. They can still trash the character when he isn`t onscreen of course but ignoring it would be much easier.

[Myrelle]

24 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

We're not talking about Sam.  This is not a tit-for-tat situation.  Thoughts/feelings about Sam are immaterial in a discussion about Dean, IMO.

 

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not for me because it is a direct comparism. If they ignored ALL the character`s history and never mentioned anything ever again, I would still find it weird and bad writing but at least I could see that they simply have no interest in their own previous myth.

Only ignoring Dean`s makes me ask myself why those stories are considered so lame and uninteresting? Is it the character himself that just garners no interest for the writers? What makes him such a bad character apparently to write for in that regard? Is all they see in him some crass buffon for comic relief or the occasional angsty scene? What?     

This. Thank you.

 

9 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

How many times has Sam tried to get Dean to open up?  It's not in his character to talk about the things that have hurt him, whether physical or emotional.  The show has made that abundantly clear.  He's not going to talk about Hell.

 

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean doesn`t even need to be present. I just want it acknowledged. Sam and cold fish Mary could discuss it for all I care.

And this, too. Thanks again.

[Myrelle]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Precisely.  If you are only watching for one brother, then any perceived slight to that character is further exacerbated by comparison to any perceived positive moment for the other.

My unpopular opinion: The show is truly pro BOTH brothers.  Some writers may connect more with Sam or Dean but that doesn't make them pro-one to the point of excluding the other.  Robbie Thompson was fond of saying Jared and Jensen smell 'like baby Jesus'.  He meant that with true love and affection for both actors and characters.  Following his tweets, and talking in person with him, he was a show fanboy of both.  I don't see any of these new writers being overly biased and most have made plenty of tweets/instagrams that indicate they are not just thrilled to have a job but thrilled to be working on a good show.  

But, more importantly, in response to the above quote, if you can't enjoy when the brother who is not your favorite gets some emphasis, then I don't see how this show will be anything but a disappointment a fair amount of time.  It's designed to show both strength and weaknesses of both brothers.  Depending on your POV, a particular feature is more or less important.  Hence all the opinions.  But IMUO (In My Unpopular Opinion), there is no objective data that says "X writer loves or hates Y".

I'm not really seeing any unpopular opinions here, considering the site. Maybe a little bit of latent bitterness over all the bitterness that this week's episode engendered in some of us, but what can you do? This thread is really getting a work-out lately. I'm just glad for it's existence here. It's very cathartic.

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm not really seeing any unpopular opinions here, considering the site. Maybe a little bit of latent bitterness over all the bitterness that this week's episode engendered in some of us, but what can you do? This thread is really getting a work-out lately. I'm just glad for it's existence here. It's very cathartic.

Yes. And I'm VERY grateful for people who are directing the bitterness here.  

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Yes. And I'm VERY grateful for people who are directing the bitterness here.

But of course. After all, we're all adults and we all want things to run smoothly. :-)

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean doesn`t even need to be present. I just want it acknowledged.

It was acknowledged a few episodes ago that Dean went to hell when Dean mentioned it. People complained about that, too. (Not me, because I thought Dean was exaggerating for the sake of Mary and Castiel.)

Considering the nature of the fandom, there isn't going to be a scenario specific enough for everyone to be happy.

I sighed for a moment in this episode when Sam was once again knocked down and lost the demon knife somehow (because didn't he have it to start with?), was unable to do anything while Wally was killed in front of him, and then Dean had to save him, but that's how things go sometimes,. And then Sam got his chance later on in the episode.

Dean also got to be badass last week and kill both of the witches and save Sam even though Dean was losing his memory and Sam was supposed to be saving him. Even though Sam was written as pretty incompetent, I still really liked the episode, because I thought it was otherwise well written and acted. If I always insisted that Sam was written as intelligent, competent, got to be the hero, and that the show always referenced all of Sam's history in a good light every episode, I would be severely disappointed, because that ain't gonna happen.

Even connections don't necessarily mean much - Sam's history with Lucifer was mentioned, but that didn't mean that it continued, since Castiel took over as Lucifer's favorite vessel anyway... not that I wanted Sam to be his vessel again. Just that Sam being Lucifer's vessel turned out to not be all that important to the current story anyway except for Sam being the patsy to get Castiel there.
 

I think that there is significance to the fact that Dean picked up Michael's lance and that the show showed us this. Maybe that Dean didn't use it now will make it more significant when he uses it later on a bigger big bad. I don't know yet. But I suspect.

It reminds me of last season when there was grumbling that Dean's connection to Amara wouldn't play an important role in stopping Amara - especially with that misdirect midseason at the end of "Love Hurts." I said then that that was a misdirect and that it would be Dean who was the key to solving everything... and I was right. So, I get the bitterness, but I think maybe the show is messing with you. Just like last season - in almost the same part of the season - I think what appears to be happening, won't. They aren't playing up a connection between Dean and the lance now, sure, but that doesn't mean something might not show up later. It may not, but I suspect that it will. And I think that I have a pretty good track record with these things.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It was acknowledged a few episodes ago that Dean went to hell when Dean mentioned it. 

When Dabb made Dean out to be a wimpy loser who easily breaks because a measly 6 weeks is worse than hell. Well, Dean`s hell at least. Yup, that was worse than not mentioning it. 

I`m undecided right now about the lance. It could be like the Hands of God, a useless McGuffin now. Especially with the Colt re-introduced. IF it has significance again, I don`t attribute much to Dean carrying it out. Granted, it meant nothing really that Sam used it because so did Ramiel and Crowley.

We will see how Dean is allowed to feature in future eps with "Princes of Hell". Maybe if they are written by someone else he gets to be less inconsequential.

Personally, with real life occurences, I`m pretty sure as a Dean-fan, I got my hurray last week and the rest of the Season will be a write-off.

Quote

Even though Sam was written as pretty incompetent, I still really liked the episode, because I thought it was otherwise well written and acted.

I thought the Lily Sunder ep was okay, with a relatively simply but enganging story and good guest performances. Dean didn`t really feature much in that either but I get the feeling Yockey likes the character a lot more than Perez.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Not that it means anything. Sam was supposed to be Lucifer's one true vessel and it seems like he can joyride in whoever he damn well wants to so both the boys had their biblical mytharcs pissed on.

I don't think Sam's OTV arc was shit on at all.  Sam fulfilled his destiny by saving the world as Lucifer's OTV. IMO,  Sam is still Lucifer's best choice for a vessel. He knows that Sam can handle him as long as Sam has some demon blood. Sam might even be able to handle him without demon blood if maybe for a lesser amount of time.  To me no matter how many other vessels Lucifer blows through, as long as Sam is still alive, the potential is there for Sam to be his vessel. 

[Darkblood8]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

When Dabb made Dean out to be a wimpy loser who easily breaks because a measly 6 weeks is worse than hell. Well, Dean`s hell at least. Yup, that was worse than not mentioning it. 

I saw it that way at first myself but I've started looking at it a different way. I reconcile it by the fact that Dean was in Hell by himself. It would be worse for him in this situation because he knew his brother was going through the exact same hell. He could always think "at least Sam is safe" in hell. He couldn't in the prison. Dean's hell would be knowing his family was suffering and he could never do anything about it.