Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Noone said having the souls inside you required a lot of internal strength or something. Or that it would be difficult to hold them.

I thought that was pretty well established with the each soul has a power of 100 suns or so, then multiplied by a couple hundred thousand... Then Dean described his insides as feeling like they were flame broiled "is that normal?" and Rowena says "We're so far past normal." For me, that pretty much established that this was an extraordinary thing happening here.

Then to prove the point even further, Amara recognizes Dean has the soul bomb with the line "Do you think I can't taste the power coming off of you?"

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They established that archangels were the biggest, baddest of them all. They established that Lucifer was the big kahuna. So defeating him by force of will is a feat unprecedented and unparalled in the show. They made it that way and they kept it that way.

I pretty much thought the writers changed the entire cannon with the new someone can expel an angel any time they want just by deciding that they didn't want the angel in there any more stuff. So I'm not sure how that retcons how difficult it would've been to defeat Lucifer. If I even thought that Sam defeated Lucifer on his own - which I don't. And Lucifer saying so last season doesn't count - he had an agenda.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Killing an angel has become dime, a dozen these days.

I don't know about that. I don't remember if Sam has ever killed one or not.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They have not given Dean anything in all 200+ episodes that can compare to that. On the contrary, even the successes or accomplishments he had in terms of strength, they have done their best to make them look small or belittle them afterwards. 

I thought the soul bomb was pretty equivalent.

And as far as I'm concerned, Sam's short stint in purgatory - maybe it was a slow day - can't compare to an entire year there, with some of that spent with an angel beacon calling monsters from everywhere. I thought that the flashbacks established that fairly conclusively.

I also don't agree about belittling Dean's accomplishments. I thought "Live Free or TwiHard" was pretty much a straightforward celebration of Dean's strength - both physical and of character - taken to almost fanfic levels. There was Dean killing everything in sight in purgatory, the demons in Cain's house, all the Steins.

And Dean was immortal and for quite a while. Even at Sam's most powerful, Sam was never immortal. In my opinion, that's pretty much the most powerful thing any sentient being can be. So obviously we're never going to agree here.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Conversely being weak is the worst insult you can bestow on one.

You mean like being a drug addict? Or abandoning a member of your team because you can't handle it any more?

This show has had both Sam and Dean be weak at various times in the show, but we disagree greatly on what "weak" is. I didn't think the second half of season 8, for example, showed a "weak" Dean at all. Dean is who kept Sam together. Sam would've failed or died way before he even got to the third trial without Dean's help. Dean had to show incredible strength of character to put his feelings aside and do the right thing to help Sam.

When the situation was reversed in season 9... Sam failed. He wasn't strong enough to put aside his gripes and support Dean. This annoys me greatly, because this was pretty much a retcon of Sam's character from the past, and it pretty much turned him into a hypocrite to boot. To me that's pretty low on the scale character-wise.

Physical strength isn't the only kind of strength there is, and it's not the only thing a character needs to be a hero. I'm pretty sure physical strength or even power would do absolutely nothing without the strength of character to use it heroically.

And as I said above: immortal. Physically nothing trumps that, in my opinion.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Sam tries to convince himself sometimes he believes Dean is strong but the truth comes under every spell or too much anger. 

I think that is insulting to Sam. Sam can't have different opinions at different times? He can't mean what he says about Dean being the strongest person he knows and someone he always looked up to without later on something said in a moment of anger or weakness of character negating it entirely? If that were the case, I guess that would mean that Dean still wishes that Sam had died instead of Charlie. Or that Dean always thought that Sam was angry, self-righteous, selfish, arrogant, and a monster. Or just a burden he's been carrying his whole life according to his demon self. And we know that isn't true, even though Dean has said all of those things, some influenced and some not.

I don't think that's fair to either Dean or Sam. Just because something is said in a moment of emotional weakness doesn't mean that's what that person always thought of someone else.

 

Edited to add: Thank you for the data, Demented Daisy! I always enjoy your data reports, and definitely appreciate the effort.

Edited August 17, 2016 by AwesomO4000
To give Demented Daisy her due!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I mean, does anyone think she will secretely turn out to be evil or something like that? E

Honestly, that thought has crossed my mind. The Darkness was supposed to be the evilest evil to ever evil and she killed thousands of people and she violated Dean's agency all the time, she tortured Lucifer and Cas. She tried to kill Chuck. Dean betrayed her, in her mind and refused to be one with him. If Amara intentionally brought Mary back as wrong or evil I would be hellaimpressed, but to be clear, I am SURE that is NOT going to happen.

But a messed up Mary as an unintended consequence of Amara's actions?  I'm definitely hanging my hat on that as a strong possibility/near likelihood.  A messed up Mary would be the epitome of pain and punishment for the boys especially Dean. 

[AwesomO4000]

Agreed to all of that, catrox.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought that was pretty well established with the each soul has a power of 100 suns or so, then multiplied by a couple hundred thousand... Then Dean described his insides as feeling like they were flame broiled "is that normal?" and Rowena says "We're so far past normal." For me, that pretty much established that this was an extraordinary thing happening here.

It wasn't really extraordinary because Rowena said he only had an hour or so to live with all those souls inside him.  He WAS going to die if Chuck hadn't removed the souls.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This show has had both Sam and Dean be weak at various times in the show, but we disagree greatly on what "weak" is. I didn't think the second half of season 8, for example, showed a "weak" Dean at all.

I actually don`t think that showed him as "weak" either. I just hated the servant/nanny role because this is Supernatural and not Downton Abbey or The Nanny. In those shows, the roles of servants and nannys hold a much different meaning. But the second half of Season 8 for Dean, well, even sidekicks in action shows would mock that "role". So I hated it in terms of what the character was given to do (or not to do), not so much how they portrayed him during it. Though a certain meekness comes with the role. 

And I also agree that physical strength is not everything. In fact, strength of character is much more important to me. An example where I thought Dean was portrayed as weak was werewolf ep last Season. This was so incredibly pathetic, it was impossible to get through without cringing. Meanwhile Sam supermaned his way through the episode.  

Quote

I think that is insulting to Sam. Sam can't have different opinions at different times? He can't mean what he says about Dean being the strongest person he knows and someone he always looked up to without later on something said in a moment of anger or weakness of character negating it entirely?

 Theoretically, yes, he could. But I can`t help it if the show can`t convince me of it. He says he always looked up to Dean in Season 3. And then I see the flashback eps (minus the Shtriga one from Season 1) and I go "um???". He says - and by all accounts and purposes he sounds earnestly - that Dean will never hear him say that he, Dean, is anything other than good. When the Purge episode is still very much in my mind. Throughout the second Mark of Cain stint, post-demon, he tentatively says a couple times that Dean can fight it but mostly his attitude screams "lost cause, no way". Even when Dean isn`t doing so badly.

There is just so much cognitive dissonance there. But in general, it`s the little things. If I discount the big dramatic moments and speeches in either direction, both the complimentary ones and the negative ones and just go by general interaction, it`s the assessment I come away with. And I acknowledge that Dean is the one who does far more ribbing and mocking and making general statements that on paper would give me a very different understanding of the characters. The words, the dialogue, the demeanor are actually often unflattering for both characters, though, just on paper, more so for Dean. I just always thought it was Jensen`s greatest strength as an actor to soften that and/or give it more of a charming, playful or pleasant spin. Not always but often enough. Whereas I think Jared plays his lines more straight. Page to screen. So, if they wouldn`t work for me on the page, they don`t work for me on the screen. There are just scenes where I would have prefered as different approach. From Jensen, too, mind you but it`s fewer.     

 

Quote

It wasn't really extraordinary because Rowena said he only had an hour or so to live with all those souls inside him.  He WAS going to die if Chuck hadn't removed the souls.

 I agree. There was basically nothing to indicate that any Tom, Dick or Harry couldn`t hold those souls for a time. Dean was just special in that equation because he was the only one who could approach Amara with the hopes of not being blasted on sight.        

[bearcatfan]

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Finally done.  What a chore that was.  Figuring out who came up with the plan is always the hardest one.  Anyway, here are my findings:

Sam Plans -- 5
Sam Saves -- 1
Sam Kills -- 2

Dean Plans -- 1
Dean Saves -- 2
Dean Kills -- 3

Joint Plans -- 8
Joint Saves -- 10
Joint Kills -- 3

No Plans -- 9
No Saves -- 10
No Kills -- 15

A concerted team effort this year, I'd say!  

 

Which brings our new tallies, for all 11 seasons, to:

Sam Plans -- 51
Sam Saves -- 36
Sam Kills -- 42

Dean Plans -- 33
Dean Saves -- 40
Dean Kills -- 58 (plus 4 in Purgatory)

Joint Plans -- 56
Joint Saves -- 64
Joint Kills -- 28

No Plan -- 99
No Save -- 101
No Kill -- 114

 

Really, to me, things are about even.  Sam has the lead in plans, while Dean has a slight lead in saves and a larger lead in kills (again, thank you, Mark of Cain -- take those kills out and Sam and Dean are essentially tied in that category).

Oh, and even more importantly: more often than not, they have a plan, they save people, and they kill the baddie.  Though that no kill number is getting awfully close (128 kills vs 114 no kills).

To me, it comes as no surprise that Sam has the lead in plans, and it's not because I think he is smarter than Dean. Sam enjoys research more than Dean. In the research, you usually discover what kills. Sam has a head start on planning because he reads about it before he tells Dean. I don't recall that it takes either of them very long to formulate a plan most of the time.

Truthfully, Sam may have started out as the "smart one" in the beginning, but the poor guy had suffered so many concussions at this point it's a miracle he isn't a drooling mess! What's the count on each one being knocked out? I know one season, it seemed Sam spent the end of nearly every episode asleep on the floor.

I don't really expect anyone to check the count btw.

[Demented Daisy]

2 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

What's the count on each one being knocked out?

Hmm.  Now I'm curious.  Maybe not curious enough to count, though.  ;-)  

Yeah, the way I tallied it, Sam has the lead in plans because his research told them which direction to go.  That tapered off in later seasons, once the show got in a rut monster-wise, but this season was... surprising.  Sam's planning episodes:

• Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire -- Dean wanted to blow everyone away, but Sam forced him to find another option.
• Form and Void -- Dean reacted while Sam did research to figure out what Billie meant about being "Biblically unclean".
• Our Little World -- I gave this one to Sam because, after some investigation, he figured out where Crowley was hiding Amara.  And he pushed harder for trying to save the possessed instead of killing them, which takes a lot more effort and planning.
• O Brother Where Art Thou? -- Sam's idea to go to Hell and visit Lucifer in the cage.
• Safe House -- again, Sam's research told them how to proceed.

I was torn on Our Little World because I wasn't sure there was much of a plan at all.  But Sam seemed to be the driving force in that one.  However, I am always up for debate.  :-)

[Aeryn13]

I think it`s a default for most writers. Every episode needs to have some level of exposition and it seems to rather automatically have Sam with a laptop or a book and kickstart it. He is the designated "smart one" so that part most often than not goes to him unless the plot specifically requires something else.

Just as "I`m telling you this is our kind of thing/Really? I`m not sure, I think you are projecting" discussions became "We are not making any headway on the Big Bad, I found us another job in the meantime/But we should keep at...". Several MOTW episodes in Season 11 started (after the teaser) with basically one copy-cat scene after another. It happened in the bunker, in the library. With a book or computer. And that exact same convos. They took a break from searching for Amara, they took a break from searching for Cas. And since they mostly showed those exact same scenes as the sneak peaks, it just all blurred together. It was one of the things that made the MOTW so incredibly meh for me last Season. So much copy and paste. The only ones that truly stick out for me are actually the ones I found really offensive.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

He is the designated "smart one" so that part most often than not goes to him unless the plot specifically requires something else.

I don't see this as Sam being the smart one, which tends to imply that Dean is the "not-so-smart" one.  I just think that it's been established that Sam actually enjoys the research side of things and Dean does not.   

I don't really notice this big divide in how the characters are treated.  I think they both get their share of the limelight.  There have been a few exceptions.  Season 8 was horrible for Sam.  It was downright character assassination.  Not looking for Dean, ditching Kevin, that weird relationship with whatsherface, his issues with Benny, and probably more.  All of these things just made Sam look like a total dick, and they were completely out of character for him.  And for Dean, there are too many occasions where they show him as dumb.  We know he's not dumb, but every once in a while they make him do or say something that's just completely stupid, and again, out of character.  I don't know whether they do it on purpose,or whether it's just bad writing, but I wish they'd stop.

I'm not sure about the idea of an evil Mary.  I don't expect a return of Amara or Chuck, and I just don't see Chuck allowing Amara to screw with the Winchesters that way.  Plus, I think we were really supposed to believe that Amara was just misunderstood.  I don't think their reconciliation at the end was faked.  I think having even normal mommy back from the dead will be dramatic enough.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It wasn't really extraordinary because Rowena said he only had an hour or so to live with all those souls inside him.  He WAS going to die if Chuck hadn't removed the souls.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree. There was basically nothing to indicate that any Tom, Dick or Harry couldn`t hold those souls for a time. Dean was just special in that equation because he was the only one who could approach Amara with the hopes of not being blasted on sight.

Technically we can't be sure that any Tom, Dick, or Harry would do, because we already know that Dean is special. Only special people are able to be angel hosts. Others literally blow up right away if a regular angel tries to possess them. And something along these lines was established early on in season 4 - with only certain "lineages" of people could be hosts to angels, and Dean could theoretically house an archangel... Which by the way I really, really hope never, ever happens, because as I explained in detail somewhere on this thread recently, I think Michael is a giant asshat, and would hate that for Dean or that Dean would permit it.

But I can see where you guys also have a point. (Though I personally think it's amazing that Dean didn't just immediately blow up or something. He's not an angel with instant healing, and even Castiel had trouble with the monster souls.)

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But in general, it`s the little things. If I discount the big dramatic moments and speeches in either direction, both the complimentary ones and the negative ones and just go by general interaction, it`s the assessment I come away with.

I guess I can see that, but it's actually some of the smaller moments that give me the opposite impression. Scenes like the middle and end of "Point of No Return" where Sam is/was so sure that Dean would follow his instincts and make the right choice, the end of "Mannequin 3..." where Dean is melancholy, but Sam lets him know just how thankful he is to be alive again because of Dean, or the end of "Season 7, Time For a Wedding" where amidst all of the teasing, Sam admits with all sincerity that obviously (Sam's word) he still needs Dean to watch his back. More recently, Sam's conversation with Charlie where he tells her how he doesn't want to do this without Dean. And my favorite, the end of "What Is..." where Sam just seems so sincere in his respect for Dean's ability to have resisted the fantasy to come back and exactly how much that and their relationship as brothers means to him (Sam). (Interesting how a lot of these are end of the episode scenes. Weird, but I guess that makes sense for them being "quieter" since it's the episode wind down.)

I just can't reconcile those kinds of scenes and sentiments coming from someone who didn't look up to the other person, but I also understand the other side... especially in light of most of season 8 and the second half of season 9. I didn't even like Sam, and he's my favorite character. (So you can imagine how annoyed with Carver that made me, especially since I thought that Sam had made some progress in season 7.)

I think also it's the general dynamic that Sam and Dean hunt under as well that gives me the impression that Sam really respects Dean. For me, I couldn't imagine just confidently following someone else's lead going into a dangerous situation - like Sam does with Dean all the time - and not having total confidence and respect for that person. That the conversation they have so often is something along the lines of "so what's the plan?" "We go in, guns blazing." "That's the plan?" "Yup." "Let's do it." the last, said with total sincerity and confidence, just seems unbelievable for me if the person you're following and relying on is someone you see as weaker than you or not worth your respect.

But as I said, in light of the early Carver years - and some of the angst in season 4 - I get that that's maybe not enough evidence for some people.

[catrox14]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

Technically we can't be sure that any Tom, Dick, or Harry would do, because we already know that Dean is special. Only special people are able to be angel hosts.

Dean wasn't hosting an angel though.  He was housing thousands of human souls that combined still wouldn't have the power of one archangel who apparently have more power than 100 suns.  Dean had to do it because of his status with Amara not because he was invincible.  Dean's status as the Michael sword never came to fruition so we don't know how quickly his vessel might have deteriorated. Dean was dying from the Mark because he wasn't strong enough to hold it until he became a demon. Dean was immortal by curse not because he had the power of an archangel. 

[Demented Daisy]

Unpopular opinion alert!  Standard disclaimers, IMO, mileage varies, blah blah blah.

For what it's worth, early season 9 Dean borders on character assassination for me.  But it was much more subtle -- little things, like not caring about others in general.  The closest to a definable moment would be Dean's attitude to human Castiel.  Not just kicking him out of the bunker (which was horrible), but the way Dean acted in Heaven Can't Wait.  

I don't know why they did it, but Dean was a real dick for almost half the season.  Kevin's death seemed to snap him out of it -- perhaps he realized that everything he had done had been for him, not anyone else.  Unfortunately, that was a lesson that Sam reinforced in The Purge, for seemingly no good reason.  *sigh*

So, long story short, I hate season 9 as much as AwesomO hates season 8.

[bearcatfan]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't see this as Sam being the smart one, which tends to imply that Dean is the "not-so-smart" one.  I just think that it's been established that Sam actually enjoys the research side of things and Dean does not.   

I actually agree with this, which is why I used quotations. People mention that Sam is smart because he got that full ride to Stanford but that doesn't mean that Dean is stupid. I think it would be more accurate to say that Sam is the educated one because of his schooling. Dean is smart and observant (usually) when on a case, but he doesn't always know certain things that Sam does because Sam learned about them in some class where he paid attention. My feeling is that if Dean valued education as much as Sam, he could have done just as well in school.

Dean doesn't enjoy research, and that's ok because Sam does. If Dean HAS to do the research, he can do it and do it well. Why have him suffer through it when Sam is willing?

Edited August 18, 2016 by bearcatfan
Because I'm OCD about some things.

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Though I personally think it's amazing that Dean didn't just immediately blow up or something. He's not an angel with instant healing, and even Castiel had trouble with the monster souls.)

Dean said that he was flame broiled on the inside. He was basically dying from the moment the souls entered him. It was a matter of time. Maybe it would have been better to see Dean suffering in pain and agony to believe he was dying.

I thought it was the leviathan that were killing destroying Cas not just the monster souls.

Edited August 18, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I actually agree with this, which is why I used quotations. People mention that Sam is smart because he got that full ride to Stanford but that doesn't mean that Dean is stupid. I think it would be more accurate to say that Sam is the educated one because of his schooling. Dean is smart and observant (usually) when on a case, but he doesn't always know certain things that Sam does because Sam learned about them in some class where he paid attention. My feeling is that if Dean valued education as much as Sam, he could have done just as well in school.

Dean doesn't enjoy research, and that's ok because Sam does. If Dean HAS to do the research, he can do it and do it well. Why have him suffer through it when Sam is willing?

The thing for me is there is little evidence that Dean doesn't enjoy research. He surely did at the beginning of the series. He was using the computer at the library, always had a newspaper, and seemed to enjoy it. Sam came along and shoved him out of the way. HAHAHAHA funny Sam and Dean thing. Dean reads novels and books and enjoys it.  Look at the research they did in s6 at the Campbell bunker. He was happily looking for stuff and found Colt's journal in Frontierland and was a kid in the candy store.

Dean needs to read mechanical/electrical manuals/blueprints  to be able to make EMF detectors and rebuild cars. Again, he clearly enjoys those things. I was happy that the show had Dean remind Sam that he reads when Sam looked at him askance about Aesop's Fables in s11.  

The only reason Dean stopped doing as much research as Sam is because of Bobby. Bobby had to have something to do so he became the research guy in s4.  Sam didn't have to do a ton of research in s4 because his story was about Ruby and using his powers. The hunting IMO as secondary. 

Dean was chastised by Bobby because he didn't want to research about angels because he just got the shock of his life when Castiel showed up and claims he saved Dean because God had work for Dean was more than he could handle. I think that's when it became some unsupported conventional wisdom that  "Dean hates research", but I don't  think the text supports that CW. Dean did so less but not because he hates it.  Sam did less because of Bobby but not because he didn't want to do it. That was never a part of Sam's narrative even with Bobby's presence.

I think Carver on one hand did a better job of showing Dean researching things in the Bunker but then dumbs Dean down in random weird ways like his pop culture or something.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wasn't hosting an angel though.  He was housing thousands of human souls that combined still wouldn't have the power of one archangel who apparently have more power than 100 suns.  Dean had to do it because of his status with Amara not because he was invincible.  Dean's status as the Michael sword never came to fruition so we don't know how quickly his vessel might have deteriorated.

I think somebody got their equivalents messed up on the show - likely Castiel - because he said in the finale that a soul has the power of 100 suns. I tend to think it's one sun (something that someone on the show earlier said I think). Even if that's the case, then Dean's "bomb" would still be more powerful than an archangel - if the 100 suns for the archangels is correct - because there were a couple 100,000 souls in there according to Billie. Which would explain why Dean was dying, because that would theoretically be even more powerful a drain than if he had hosted an archangel.

Which makes sense, because if the power of an archangel - Lucifer - wasn't powerful enough to kill Amara or even make a dent, then the soul bomb would've had to be more powerful than that.

As for Dean deteriorating as Michael's vessel, I don't know if that would've happened. When Castiel was in Jimmy, there was no problem with that, and Dean was supposed to be Michael's vessel. Even Adam seemed to be okay, and I think Michael was using him for a while, so my guess is that Dean would've been fine.

Lucifer seems to be a bit different. After Lucifer had been on earth for a while, drinking demon blood, even Sam needed a bunch of demon blood in him so he wouldn't explode if he was going to be Lucifer's vessel. I think Lucifer - as he gets more powerful from "unnatural means" - puts more drain maybe on his vessels, and so unnatural means of housing him - like drinking demon blood - are  necessary.

That's all a guess/conjecture on my part, though, based on the snippets of information from the show that we were given.

Quote

Dean was dying from the Mark because he wasn't strong enough to hold it until he became a demon. Dean was immortal by curse not because he had the power of an archangel.

I know Dean was immortal from a curse, but for me, that still counts as fairly unique (for a human) and as a stint as being powerful for Dean - which was the discussion at the time - since when Sam had power it wasn't innate either. It was fueled by demon blood. As soon as Sam stopped drinking demon blood, his powers disappeared.

And as for not being strong enough to house the mark until he became a demon, for me that's not much different from Sam having bad effects - such as his withdrawals - from the demon blood. And once Dean became a demon and was cured, that seemed to have strengthened him somewhat, because the physical effects from the mark weren't as bad. And he was still immortal, because the mark wouldn't let him die.

Edited August 18, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think somebody got their equivalents messed up on the show - likely Castiel - because he said in the finale that a soul has the power of 100 suns. I tend to think it's one sun (something that someone on the show earlier said I think). Even if that's the case, then Dean's "bomb" would still be more powerful than an archangel - if the 100 suns for the archangels is correct - because there were a couple 100,000 souls in there according to Billie. Which would explain why Dean was dying, because that would theoretically be even more powerful a drain than if he had hosted an archangel.

 

I don't think the power of 100000 human souls is greater than a fully powered archangel. Archangels have the power to teleport, humans don't.  IMO they didn't bring back Michael or Gabriel under the guise of  Chuck not having time to rebuild them which leaves them with the use of human souls.  Cas could have probably done it without being harmed but he couldn't get next to Amara so there was no point in doing that.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm just going off of what Castiel said in the episode compared to what you thought was the power of an archangel. The power of an archangel is one detail I don't remember myself, but as I said, considering that archangels possess people and despite some brain damage sometimes, the host stays intact, whereas Dean only had an hour, my guess from all of that information was that yes, the power of the souls would be greater than an archangel. That did make sense to me based on the information.

And they did have an archangel on their side - Lucifer - and he failed to get it done. Amara shook off his attack easily and squashed him like a bug... which is why I theorized that the few hundred thousand human soul "bomb" would be more powerful than that.

I'm not saying I'm right - because I don't remember what an archangel's power is equivalent to, but based on the facts I do know, or what Castiel said in the episode, that's the conclusion that made sense to me.

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Archangels have the power to teleport, humans don't.

Maybe the power of a few 1000 human souls could? Souls are supposed to be powerful, and about 50,000 hell souls (theoretically somewhat damaged) were enough power for Castiel to give Raphael a huge smackdown, even without blowing them up in a big boom. So I don't know...

I got nothin'.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean did so less but not because he hates it.  Sam did less because of Bobby but not because he didn't want to do it.

My opinions only coming up:

I think maybe it depends on the research? If it's something Dean is interested in, I think he enjoys it, otherwise he'd rather have Sam - his Geek Boy as he affectionately teased Sam with when they were apart in "Scarecrow" - have the honors. But I also think one of the reasons Dean would rather let Sam do it sometimes is because I think Dean sometimes can't let it go. A good example was season 7. Sam had to practically beg Dean at times to stop researching Dick Roman and get some much needed sleep or have something to eat.

I could see Dean - especially if time was of the essence - getting frustrated and driving himself crazy if he couldn't find the answer right away when lives might be on the line. Whereas I think Sam might be able to compartmentalize a little better - that goal orientated thing you talked about earlier - and just try to focus on getting the answer. In times like that - with lives on the line - I don't think that Dean would find the research fun at all. I think he'd find it frustrating and would rather be doing active surveillance or actively trying to get information, and that being stuck in front of a computer while people might be in danger and he might be able to stop it if he was out there would not be a fun thing for him at all.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I was happy that the show had Dean remind Sam that he reads when Sam looked at him askance about Aesop's Fables in s11.

I thought that Sam was surprised maybe more because they were Aesop's Fables Dean was talking about - something I (maybe wrongly?) associate with children's or young people's literature. When Sam knew stuff about Grimm's Fairy Tales, Dean wrinkled his nose in he-manly disgust, so I would suspect that Sam would think it unusual that Dean wouldn't think of Aesop's Fables the same way. That's where my mind went during the exchange anyway.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

My opinions only coming up:

I think maybe it depends on the research? If it's something Dean is interested in, I think he enjoys it, otherwise he'd rather have Sam - his Geek Boy as he affectionately teased Sam with when they were apart in "Scarecrow" - have the honors. But I also think one of the reasons Dean would rather let Sam do it sometimes is because I think Dean sometimes can't let it go. A good example was season 7. Sam had to practically beg Dean at times to stop researching Dick Roman and get some much needed sleep or have something to eat.

I could see Dean - especially if time was of the essence - getting frustrated and driving himself crazy if he couldn't find the answer right away when lives might be on the line. Whereas I think Sam

I thought that Sam was surprised maybe more because they were Aesop's Fables Dean was talking about - something I (maybe wrongly?) associate with children's or young people's literature. When Sam knew stuff about Grimm's Fairy Tales, Dean wrinkled his nose in he-manly disgust, so I would suspect that Sam would think it unusual that Dean wouldn't think of Aesop's Fables the same way. That's where my mind went during the exchange anyway.

I could go with that if Dean hadn't reacted with "Hey, I read" ,  not in an offended way but more seriously. like 'don't sell me short".  

I don't understand why Sam would even question what Dean knew about fables or whatever it was, or fables that most of us learned it at least cursorily in school.  Dean could have read the fables to Sam when they were kids. If Dean didn't learn it as a kid in school, maybe he learned about it when he was in school for the 2 months at the boys home. Maybe he learned it in After School Special.  To me there are any number of ways Dean knew that information.  And lets say Dean didn't learn ANYTHING about Aesop's Fables during any other point of his life, he did spend a year with Ben who was a tween. Maybe that was something Ben learned about that Dean picked up on. 

As to Dean mocking Sam in Bedtime Stories, Dean was an asshole for the first part of s3 because he was freaking out about going to Hell. I don't think he really thinks Sam was gay for knowing fairy tales. Dean was projecting his fucked up ness onto everyone else. 

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought that Sam was surprised maybe more because they were Aesop's Fables Dean was talking about - something I (maybe wrongly?) associate with children's or young people's literature. When Sam knew stuff about Grimm's Fairy Tales, Dean wrinkled his nose in he-manly disgust, so I would suspect that Sam would think it unusual that Dean wouldn't think of Aesop's Fables the same way. That's where my mind went during the exchange anyway.

Just a sidenote here--I was actually surprised that Dean recognized that; I would have expected Sam to be the one correcting Dean about misquoting.   I was thrilled that they made Dean the one who knew it.   (Honestly?  Raise your hands if you knew that that was Aesop?  Most people do think it comes from the bible.)  So, for whatever reason, yay! smart!Dean.

[catrox14]

/raises hand

[ahrtee]

Yay, Catrox!  I'm a former librarian who spent my whole life reading everything I could get my hands on, and the only reason I remembered it was because I'd just spent the best part of 3 years reading to my mom in a dementia unit, and Aesop worked well--short enough and familiar enough to hold her attention, at least for a while.  

[AwesomO4000]

48 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Just a sidenote here--I was actually surprised that Dean recognized that; I would have expected Sam to be the one correcting Dean about misquoting.   I was thrilled that they made Dean the one who knew it.   (Honestly?  Raise your hands if you knew that that was Aesop?  Most people do think it comes from the bible.)  So, for whatever reason, yay! smart!Dean.

I didn't know it. I can say that. My Aesop days are long since past by now, and I didn't have kids, so no refresher either.

But I wasn't as surprised that the show would have Dean know it, myself. Especially in these later seasons - and not just the Carver later years either - they seem to be downplaying Sam's intelligence and his obscure facts traits. The first I really remember was the "Aim lower" quote from Bobby, but after the Metatron / Megatron thing (which my G1 friend, who I got into the show and who's been borrowing my DVDs, I'm sure loved), I don't automatically - or even usually - expect Sam to get the smart edit any more.

Sam's nickname is "Moose" after all - not exactly the smartest of the pair - and Crowley isn't shy about expressing the fact that he thinks Sam fits that nickname with "Poor Moose, a little slow on the uptake" comments.

What I'd like is for Sam to get the current pop culture edit on something for once - and serial killers and old movies don't count. That would surprise me more than anything. And hopefully by now he's seen Star Trek IV, because that's a classic... He doesn't have to watch the Clint Eastwood "monkey movies" though ; ).

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

What I'd like is for Sam to get the current pop culture edit on something for once - and serial killers and old movies don't count. That would surprise me more than anything. And hopefully by now he's seen Star Trek IV, because that's a classic... He doesn't have to watch the Clint Eastwood "monkey movies" though ; ).

Why do serial killers and old movies not count?  People usually remember what they're interested in--so Dean knows music and movies and car stuff, and Sam knows serial killers and lore and language and a whole lot of miscellaneous trivia.  Sounds pretty fair to me.  

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Why do serial killers and old movies not count?

Because we know from way back that Sam knows about those. That's not new or surprising. It's fun to see new and surprising things for Dean like the Aesop's Fables and Kurt Vonnegut reading and watching telenovellas or that Dean secretly likes Air Supply and such, so I just thought it might be fun to see something surprising like that about Sam for once also. *shrug*

In my opinion, the show too often makes Sam much more glum than they need to. It's one of their jokes that isn't funny - like Dean is dumb and eats attrociously. Oh, Sam is such a pissy pants. He doesn't like Dean's loud music or know how to have fun.

As for the miscellaneous trivia and languages stuff, that doesn't come up as much recently in regards to Sam. Usually Castiel chimes in on the languages, and it's been a long while since we've had a nice unidentified herb or such.

[Demented Daisy]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam's nickname is "Moose" after all - not exactly the smartest of the pair - and Crowley isn't shy about expressing the fact that he thinks Sam fits that nickname with "Poor Moose, a little slow on the uptake" comments.

But that's why it's a joke -- it's the opposite of what the audience knows about Sam.  I don't think it's intended to be commentary on Sam.  

 

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's not new or surprising. It's fun to see new and surprising things for Dean like the Aesop's Fables and Kurt Vonnegut reading and watching telenovellas or that Dean secretly likes Air Supply and such, so I just thought it might be fun to see something surprising like that about Sam for once also.

What about Harry Potter and Game of Thrones?  He certainly knew about The Wire when Castiel was binge-watching it.  I wouldn't think that would be a show Sam would like.  He seems much more interested in escapist fantasy than gritty realism.  (Funnily enough, his own life is pretty much 50/50 there.)

Edited August 18, 2016 by Demented Daisy
Caught a typo half a second too late.

[ahrtee]

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Because we know from way back that Sam knows about those. That's not new or surprising. It's fun to see new and surprising things for Dean like the Aesop's Fables and Kurt Vonnegut reading and watching telenovellas or that Dean secretly likes Air Supply and such, so I just thought it might be fun to see something surprising like that about Sam for once also. *shrug*

In my opinion, the show too often makes Sam much more glum than they need to. It's one of their jokes that isn't funny - like Dean is dumb and eats attrociously. Oh, Sam is such a pissy pants. He doesn't like Dean's loud music or know how to have fun.

As for the miscellaneous trivia and languages stuff, that doesn't come up as much recently in regards to Sam. Usually Castiel chimes in on the languages, and it's been a long while since we've had a nice unidentified herb or such.

Actually, I don’t think they ever mentioned Sam's fascination with serial killers till whatever the ep was this season.  He may have recognized HH Holmes back in season 2, but Dean knew who he was immediately (they used Jo as the "dumb one who needs things explained" that time).  So knowing something as part of the job and being interested enough to research them for fun is new and different.     

As for other new/surprising things about Sam:  well, the fact that he had an imaginary friend as a kid was pretty much a surprise to me.  There's The Purge where Sam apparently knew enough to at least fake teaching yoga. Or the fact that Sam is the one with Netflix in his room, and his interest in Harry Potter and Game of Thrones as Demented Daisy mentioned above.   And if you want to go back to season 4 (as you did with Dean's knowledge of Vonnegut), there was the tidbit that Sam went through a “magic” phase as a kid.

There were also things both Winchesters shared that we just recently learned about:  the psychic who’d given them both their first beers before they hit double digits, and that *both* of them fondly remembered going to wrestling matches with John (Dean may have had a boy-crush on one of the wrestlers, but it was Sam who had a poster over his bed!)  There’s also the “memory box” that Sam apparently has, which I don’t remember ever seeing before the nursing home ep.  I'm sure there are others, but that's all I can remember right now. The point is, they *both* have had little character reveals tossed in either casually or with a clunk-over-the-head.  Personal preferences might make you remember some and not the others so it seems lopsided.  But I don't think we need to keep score.  

As for the jokes that aren't funny--you're right; but, as you pointed out, it affects *both* of them.  Yes, Sam is sometimes too glum/doesn't seem to know how to have fun.  And Dean has been in a major depression since season 2, and it's gotten continuously worse.  According to the some of the writers, Dean is stupid and annoying and has terrible table manners, and Sam is pissy and prissy.   So again, IMO, they're both equally dumped on that way.  

Bottom line:  I think they're pretty even in character reveals (both bad and good); and I guess I don't see not having Sam spout off esoteric information as frequently is downplaying his intelligence.  The fact that he's smart (and everyone on the show knows and accepts it) has been a given since season 1.  They haven't reversed that, even if they give the fact-finding win to someone else once in a while; but  we don't have to see it all the time to know that it's true.   But YMMV. 

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

But that's why it's a joke -- it's the opposite of what the audience knows about Sam.  I don't think it's intended to be commentary on Sam.

Hee. Well, it used to be more of a joke. Some of the stupid things they've had Sam doing in the past few seasons sometimes makes me jokingly wonder if he has been hit over the head once too often. Not that I'm saying that Dean is immune by any means. It's funny that we here on the site can now just say "brain damage" in reference to something either Sam or Dean have done and know exactly what we're talking about. ; )

And Crowley seems to be one of the more intelligent characters on the show - that he is still alive and has put one over on Sam and Dean enough times is testament to that - so his assessment and insults lend more weight I guess. It's not something that bugs me much - I actually like that nickname for Sam - it's just a general trend I've seen over the last few seasons. It used to be oh, yeah, Sam is the nerdy, book-smart one, definitely. I don't really get that vibe anymore - if I'd come in to watching the show more recently, I don't think I would really think that anymore. I'm also not saying that's necessarily a bad thing either per se, either.  It just seems we know more stuff that Dean likes than Sam likes, but that could also be because...

35 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The point is, they *both* have had little character reveals tossed in either casually or with a clunk-over-the-head.  Personal preferences might make you remember some and not the others so it seems lopsided.  But I don't think we need to keep score.

For me I don't it's so much a personal preference as the opposite, I think. When Dean brings in a hamburger on a donut - or whatever that disgusting thing was - hee! - I think ewwww! and that certainly sticks with me more (because the visual alone). So you're right it is partially my misperception, and I entirely agree that we don't need to keep score, so if that seemed to be the message of my post, I apologize for that, because it wasn't my intention at all.

54 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

As for the jokes that aren't funny--you're right; but, as you pointed out, it affects *both* of them.  Yes, Sam is sometimes too glum/doesn't seem to know how to have fun.  And Dean has been in a major depression since season 2, and it's gotten continuously worse.  According to the some of the writers, Dean is stupid and annoying and has terrible table manners, and Sam is pissy and prissy.   So again, IMO, they're both equally dumped on that way.  

Agreed - which is why I also mentioned Dean and what they do with him in that regard. My point was that it's become not funny in both cases, and the writers have exaggerated it enough that it is more of a farce at this point. Sam's pissiness was made so epic in the second half of season 9, that in my opinion it was way out of character for him. Sam may get pissy sometimes, but he also usually forgives fairly quickly in my opinion - in exaggerating the pissiness, the writers seemed to forget that second point.

9 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

What about Harry Potter and Game of Thrones?  He certainly knew about The Wire when Castiel was binge-watching it.  I wouldn't think that would be a show Sam would like.  He seems much more interested in escapist fantasy than gritty realism.  (Funnily enough, his own life is pretty much 50/50 there.)

Hee. I would have been more surprised if Sam didn't read  Harry Potter. It's become almost shorthand for some to mean "nerd." I think I more go against my nerd type in that I have not read, seen the movie, or know much at all about Harry Potter. Other nerds think I should have my nerd credentials revoked when they find this out - hee. As for The Wire (A show I have not seen, but have heard is great), somehow I didn't pick up on that one. Maybe I was too stuck on Orange Is the New Black, a show I also did not watch, but know enough about to have an amusing yet also disturbing image in my head of Castiel watching the show.

The "magic" phase also gives me major nerd vibes as well, but I could be stereotyping myself there. Not as bad as ventriloquism - which while I agree is a tough skill and can be amusing, also somehow has a vibe that creeps me out sometimes. Chuck and Bob from Soap were my favorites of the genre, and I don't think any other would come close for me there. I'm actually surprised the show has not really gone there either - because a possessed or cursed ventriloquism dummy has a lot of potential to be a creepy ass story, in my opinion.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

As for other new/surprising things about Sam:  well, the fact that he had an imaginary friend as a kid was pretty much a surprise to me.

Oh, I agree that was great. As was the memory box - which I need to find a still shot of somewhere so I can really take a look at it. It's probably no coincidence that I loved both of those episodes.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Bottom line:  I think they're pretty even in character reveals (both bad and good); and I guess I don't see not having Sam spout off esoteric information as frequently is downplaying his intelligence.

I guess maybe I just miss it some. Nostalgia maybe. Like Dean and his elaborate food. And Dean taking that second look through the back window at Piper in "Baby" - which I'm sure some might have taken offense to, but I smiled because 1) Old Dean behavior and sometimes I miss old Dean behavior, and 2) Piper didn't mind - she seemed pretty into Dean's attention as it was (you go girl - get 'em both.)

I guess sometimes I like the reminders of their old selves and miss them when they show up less frequently.

[mertensia]

My guess is Dean was able to contain the souls because Chuck helped him to. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Aeryn13]

The souls were magically contained inside a bomb. That bomb just had a timer. So for me, it wouldn`t be different than say being infected with a virus that will prove lethal after 48 hours. You would need help not dying then but you won`t need help to not die right away. I`m sure the soul bomb inside a person would feel strange and itchy but the episode gave me no indication whatsoever that a human body would need help to contain it. Once the timer ticks down, sure, but until then it is something a body can simply handle. 

IF the writers wanted it to make a big thing where the host had to fight it or contain it or it would have been a special feat to do so, they would have put it in the dialogue. That is how they roll. Maybe they would have bothered to do so if the host had been another character but as it was, I highly doubt they gave it even an inkling of thought.     

[rue721]

On 8/16/2016 at 11:20 AM, companionenvy said:

If Sam and Dean played the lottery, Dean would win ten million dollars, and Sam would lose the shirt off his back -- and accidentally run over a pedestrian on the way to the convenience store to buy the tickets. 

You made me literally laugh out loud. Completely cracked me up.

I don't know if I entirely agree that the show is lopsided in this way, though.

I think that where it IS lopsided is that Sam's agency is taken away A LOT more often than Dean's is. It seems to me (albeit I don't have DD-style stats to back this up!) that Sam is possessed more often, he's "under the influence" more often, he's actively manipulated more often (like by Ruby, or by YED, or by Lucifer), in storylines where they both "go crazy" Sam tends to be the one who's more out of control, etc etc etc. He even seems to literally be tied up more often. So I don't think that it's actually that Sam has worse luck or gets things wrong more than Dean, I think it's more like he winds up playing a rigged game more often than Dean does.

To go back to your metaphor, I don't think Sam would lose the shirt off his back...I think that, at long last, he would finally get all the winning numbers and would rush his ticket back to the 7-Eleven, all giddy with grand plans for using the winnings in all kinds of noble ways -- only to see the cashier get murdered right in front of him, be attacked and captured himself, and then have the murderer turn out to be a demon or even the devil himself. The murderer would then probably mock Sam to his face, and reveal that the winning lottery ticket was all just a cruel trick...that is, if Sam hasn't been psychotic, detoxing off blood, and/or trapped in Lucifer's Cage this whole time and just imagined it all anyway!

I don't think that Sam is unlucky exactly. It's more like he's damned? Which is sometimes hilarious and sometimes tragic, depending.

On 8/16/2016 at 6:51 PM, catrox14 said:

To me, Sam isn't interested in controlling people but controlling situations so he doesn't feel out of control of his life as much as he can.  But when those situations bring him and Dean into conflict it looks like Sam is trying to control Dean himself which might be the case soem of the time but not all the time.  Dean is just as stubborn as Sam but in a different way.  Dean won't give up on the people he loves and values, even when it's best for him to do exactly that. So I think PEOPLE are Dean's goal. Having a makeshift family be it blood or not. I think Dean NEEDS people to survive and Sam needs goals which is really more of objects of  hope for him. I think Dean sees people as hope. Sam sees goals as hope.

Really interesting analysis, catrox!

I think that Sam actually turns his need to feel in control inward rather than outward altogether, though, and focuses on controlling *himself* above all else. Sam actually seems to like strong personalities, doesn't really take on leadership positions, and he doesn't try to control his (physical) environment even the way that Dean invariably does. I don't think Sam feels a whole lot of need to control people *or* situations.

But at the same time, Sam will make a plan for what *he himself* will do, and then he will force himself to abide by the plan -- even if it seems physically impossible or otherwise extremely destructive/painful to accomplish. I think that Sam does feel a need for control, but it's self-control specifically.

The example I have in mind is how Sam reacted in Mystery Spot, and how he became very internally focused (to the point of alienation), did everything he could to make *himself* stronger/smarter/better, and then tried to go directly mano-a-mano with the Trickster.

I think that Sam's MO is to create one master plan that he will stick to come hell or high water (and that plan is usually very simple and straightforward, but also *extremely* difficult to actually carry out). Whereas Dean seems to create a web of possible plans and contingencies instead, that he decides between or that come into play as needed.

On 8/17/2016 at 8:48 PM, Demented Daisy said:

For what it's worth, early season 9 Dean borders on character assassination for me.  But it was much more subtle -- little things, like not caring about others in general.  The closest to a definable moment would be Dean's attitude to human Castiel.  Not just kicking him out of the bunker (which was horrible), but the way Dean acted in Heaven Can't Wait. 

YES. 100% agree. To be honest, though, I'm not sure if Dean was exceptionally uncaring during that time period, or if the specific ways he was uncaring were just exceptionally shocking to me.

I mean, rationally, I don't think that turning Cas out of the bunker was actually the worst thing Dean ever did...but something about that was just so fundamentally WEIRD to me.

DD, why was Dean's treatment of human!Cas so appalling? Because I think I had a similar reaction to you, but I can't really explain or even understand why.

On 8/17/2016 at 11:39 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I think maybe it depends on the research? If it's something Dean is interested in, I think he enjoys it, otherwise he'd rather have Sam - his Geek Boy as he affectionately teased Sam with when they were apart in "Scarecrow" - have the honors. But I also think one of the reasons Dean would rather let Sam do it sometimes is because I think Dean sometimes can't let it go. A good example was season 7. Sam had to practically beg Dean at times to stop researching Dick Roman and get some much needed sleep or have something to eat.

I could see Dean - especially if time was of the essence - getting frustrated and driving himself crazy if he couldn't find the answer right away when lives might be on the line. Whereas I think Sam might be able to compartmentalize a little better - that goal orientated thing you talked about earlier - and just try to focus on getting the answer. In times like that - with lives on the line - I don't think that Dean would find the research fun at all. I think he'd find it frustrating and would rather be doing active surveillance or actively trying to get information, and that being stuck in front of a computer while people might be in danger and he might be able to stop it if he was out there would not be a fun thing for him at all.

Yeah, I can see this. Not going to beat the dead horse of anti-intellectualism, but I think that that's the issue with the "quality" or prominence of the research on the show, more than anything else.

Also, I think Dean is just fundamentally more of a problem-solver than a researcher.

On 8/18/2016 at 4:13 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

In my opinion, the show too often makes Sam much more glum than they need to. It's one of their jokes that isn't funny - like Dean is dumb and eats attrociously. Oh, Sam is such a pissy pants. He doesn't like Dean's loud music or know how to have fun.

This makes me think of Tall Tales, when Dean's story about how Sam was acting in the bar painted Sam as UNBELIEVABLY prissy. Still cracks me up, just thinking about it.

I don't think that Sam actually comes off that way, but it's hilarious to me to think of Dean seeing him as an uptight dweeb. Actually, maybe I find it hilarious BECAUSE Sam doesn't actually come off that way.

[companionenvy]

Quote

DD, why was Dean's treatment of human!Cas so appalling? Because I think I had a similar reaction to you, but I can't really explain or even understand why.

Not DD, but I think it is so appalling because of its uncharacteristic insensitivity. Dean telling Cas he had to leave under pressure from Gadreel is understandable; his back was kind of to the wall. He should have told Cas what was going on, but not doing so is a very Dean Winchester mistake.

But I really don't believe that Dean Winchester tells his newly human best friend to leave without (as far as well know) giving him money, fake credit cards, a pre-paid phone that allowed them to stay in frequent contact, etc. Castiel winding up homeless and vulnerable was an absolutely predictable outcome of his losing all of his powers, and Dean didn't seem to do anything to mitigate it. Then, when he does see Cas, he mocks him for, essentially, getting a job to support himself. I mean, what exactly did Dean think Cas was going to do for money? 

That's not Dean, and that's not good writing.

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

 

Quote

DD, why was Dean's treatment of human!Cas so appalling? Because I think I had a similar reaction to you, but I can't really explain or even understand why.

Not DD

 

I am!  *giggle snort*  But, yeah, pretty much what you said.  I can rationalize Dean kicking Cas out of the bunker, but the rest of it?  No sense at all.  That's why I called it borderline character assassination.  It is completely out of character for Dean to leave those he loves to fend for themselves.  

But season 9 is, as @DittyDotDot so lovingly calls it, the season of the Petty Little Jerks.  ;-)

[rue721]

I hear you both (and agree).

I think Dean's blasé attitude was what made it so off-putting. I mean, I get the practical reality that Cas couldn't stay at the bunker, and I don't even think it's a big deal that Dean couldn't go into the details of why. But Dean acted like putting someone out on the street (with absolutely nothing!) was a normal, acceptable thing to do. And then Cas managed to land on his feet remarkably well, and had a job, maybe a date, etc, and Dean was like "ehhhh, not impressed." Since when is Dean Winchester such a snot?

I agree that it seemed really unlike him. But also, that's just....not socially acceptable behavior in general? I don't know how to put it. I mean, it was bad writing for Dean as a specific character, but what antisocial Scrooge WOULD that be in-character for? I think that's why it really stuck with me. Kicking a friend to the curb isn't just OCC for Dean, it's something that wouldn't be normal or OK really ever. Like, I'm imagining asshole CW villains like Blair Waldorf and Lex Luthor looking on, mouths agape, scandalized.

But why would the show do that? I mean, do the writers and actors think that it actually is normal IRL to turn someone out on the street like that, so they didn't think anything of having Dean take that attitude? Or do they know that it's bizarre, but they were purposely trying to show that Dean has become...I don't know, a selfish brat? (But why would he have?)

...I guess the reason why this *might* still be relevant now is that, in retrospect, Dean has had a pretty major character arc over the past few seasons. But damned if I understand that arc even now.

[catrox14]

My head!canon is Dean's coldness about kicking Cas out of the bunker was him going overboad and detaching/ shutting down his feelings for Cas (not romantic) because he really did want Cas to be there. I think he also didn't know how to approach Cas after having giving him the boot so he tried to charm him and thought Cas would be flattered by Dean saying he was too good to be working at a Gas n Sip, not that Dean himself thinks working at a Gas n Sip is crap work.  But again that's just my head canon

[Demented Daisy]

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

But why would the show do that? I mean, do the writers and actors think that it actually is normal IRL to turn someone out on the street like that, so they didn't think anything of having Dean take that attitude?

Well, considering they did the same thing to Claire and Kate....

Have I mentioned recently that I hate the Carver years?

[DittyDotDot]

15 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't think that Sam is unlucky exactly. It's more like he's damned?

This made me laugh so hard...it's so true! And sad...but true! ;)

12 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

But season 9 is, as @DittyDotDot so lovingly calls it, the season of the Petty Little Jerks.  ;-)

Not just S9, S8 too! And, well, S10, sort of. I've actually been saying the Carver years in general, but S11 was much better in this regards, especially the back half--and guess who had one foot out the door in the back half of the season?

[auntvi]

A lot of Dean in s.9, I think, is being tied up in knots about allowing Gadreel to possess Sam. He knows he shouldn't have done it, but at the same time he doesn't want to risk Gadreel hurting Sam, so he can't say no to Gadreel about anything. He doesn't want to send Cass away, but he has to to keep Gadreel in Sam, so he overreacts just to get it over with. Same when he wants to tell Sam that there's nothing wrong with him but doesn't dare piss off Gadreel. Up until Gadreel kills Kevin. Then he finally tries to do something, but by then it's too late to convince Gadreel to voluntarily leave and he ends up putting Sam through even more trauma. And he can't deal with that, so he won't really apologize to Sam, but goes into the "woe is me, I'm poison" monologue.

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think Dean's blasé attitude was what made it so off-putting. I mean, I get the practical reality that Cas couldn't stay at the bunker, and I don't even think it's a big deal that Dean couldn't go into the details of why. But Dean acted like putting someone out on the street (with absolutely nothing!) was a normal, acceptable thing to do. And then Cas managed to land on his feet remarkably well, and had a job, maybe a date, etc, and Dean was like "ehhhh, not impressed." Since when is Dean Winchester such a snot?

For me, it makes a certain amount of sense that Dean just didn't "get" Cass as human. Like when Cass and Dean are sitting in the car in Heaven Can't Wait and Dean tells Cass not to worry about the case and to go on that date. They just sit there and until Cass reminds Dean he needs a ride. I just think Dean hasn't adjusted his thinking that Cass can't just blip away like usual. So, I can accept there needs to be an adjustment for Dean with regards to Cass, but what was so weird to me was the way it was manifesting. It's not so much that he turned Cass out without an explanation, but he also didn't give him anything. 

It's the same thing with Kevin though. It's as though their friends aren't so much their friends anymore, but their tools and weapons to be used and discarded when they don't need them anymore. I mean, they're squatting in the huge bunker, after years of cramped motel rooms and living out of their car--having nothing physical to offer anyone--but yet they seemed more generous when they had nothing to offer. Which it could've been a fine theme for them to explore, but it doesn't seem like the show was actually trying to do that. 

12 hours ago, rue721 said:

...I guess the reason why this *might* still be relevant now is that, in retrospect, Dean has had a pretty major character arc over the past few seasons. But damned if I understand that arc even now.

I think that's because there's not real through-line with Dean's character arc. It seems to me they used it to explore a few different themes, but it wasn't actually about Dean. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Bessie]

On September 21, 2016 at 5:53 PM, rue721 said:

I don't think that Sam is unlucky exactly. It's more like he's damned? Which is sometimes hilarious and sometimes tragic, depending.

I really do find it kind of hilarious. I mean we just wrapped up Dean's seasons- long dark arc. Comparing the endings of Sam's dark arc and Dean's dark arc kind of sums it up for me. Sam's trapped in a cage with two vengeful archangels in the darkest pits of hell for all eternity. Dean is suffering horribly but he's got Lisa and Ben to help him deal. 

Dean is fine and gets his much beloved mother back from the dead. Sam is suffering horribly (not knowing that Dean is fine), but he's got Cas to help him deal.  Unfortunately, Cas goes *poof* and Sam is shot.

I'm exaggerating a bit, I know. But I just have to laugh! 

[SueB]

I'm pretty sure we could make money on T-shirts with Rue's comment:

On 9/21/2016 at 5:53 PM, rue721 said:

I don't think that Sam is unlucky exactly. It's more like he's damned?

Only the #SPNFamily would get this comment and TOTALLY UNDERSTAND.  

[ahrtee]

41 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I really do find it kind of hilarious. I mean we just wrapped up Dean's seasons- long dark arc. Comparing the endings of Sam's dark arc and Dean's dark arc kind of sums it up for me. Sam's trapped in a cage with two vengeful archangels in the darkest pits of hell for all eternity. Dean is suffering horribly but he's got Lisa and Ben to help him deal. 

Dean is fine and gets his much beloved mother back from the dead. Sam is suffering horribly (not knowing that Dean is fine), but he's got Cas to help him deal.  Unfortunately, Cas goes *poof* and Sam is shot.

I'm exaggerating a bit, I know. But I just have to laugh! 

Actually, Sam's "dark arc" was season 4, and ended with him turning Lucifer loose.  The next season was spent with both boys trying to stop the Apocalypse from destroying the world. Volunteering to jump into the cage was Sam's "redemption arc."  

Dean's dark arc season 10 ended with turning The Darkness loose.  The next season was spent with both boys trying to stop the Darkness from destroying the world. Volunteering to blow himself up would have been his redemption.  However, while Sam completed his act of redemption, Dean was prevented from doing his.  Or maybe he hasn't completed his arc yet.

Meanwhile, we can assume Dean is suffering horribly worrying about Sam  as much as Sam is suffering horribly mourning Dean.  And we don't know yet what will come out of Mary coming back from the dead--for both boys.  

Edited September 23, 2016 by ahrtee
adding a few thoughts about redemption.

[ahrtee]

Oh, also--Dean spent the year Sam was missing/in the Cage with Lisa and Ben, suffering horribly and trying everything he could to get him out.  Sam spent the year Dean was missing/in Purgatory with Amelia--playing with a dog.  Just sayin'!

[Partly]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 However, while Sam completed his act of redemption, Dean was prevented from doing his.  Or maybe he hasn't completed his arc yet

He did complete it. In fact,  what better end for a redemptive arc could there be then using forgiveness and letting go of past wrongs to stop evil. Seems the entire point of redemption.  And not only did Dean express these but he conveyed it to the big bad evil and she understood it. Seems like a great redemptive ending to me. 

[Boopsahoy]

14 minutes ago, Partly said:

He did complete it. In fact,  what better end for a redemptive arc could there be then using forgiveness and letting go of past wrongs to stop evil. Seems the entire point of redemption.  And not only did Dean express these but he conveyed it to the big bad evil and she understood it. Seems like a great redemptive ending to me. 

YES to all this. I actually loved the ending-my UO.  But, what is he redeeming himself for? HE didn't let out the Darkness Sam did.

[Partly]

17 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

But, what is he redeeming himself for? HE didn't let out the Darkness Sam did.

I think placing blame is pointless because you could say that it was ultimately Dean's taking of the mark that made it necessary to release Darkness. And so on and so on.  In the end it's their fault for existing -- Mary and John's fault for having them -- or God's fault for creating the universe.  Whatever.

My opinion (probably unpopular) is that there is no blame to be laid only consequences to be faced. 

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Partly said:

He did complete it. In fact,  what better end for a redemptive arc could there be then using forgiveness and letting go of past wrongs to stop evil. Seems the entire point of redemption.  And not only did Dean express these but he conveyed it to the big bad evil and she understood it. Seems like a great redemptive ending to me. 

Well, I was thinking more in terms of a big, splashy sacrifice (like Sam jumping into the pit) that can be seen by others (and maybe even praised) as an act of redemption.  I think Dean doesn't believe he's *worthy* of redemption, and any wins he gets (like getting Amara to stand down) is just damage control on things he already feels guilty about.  I really wish someone would tell him (and make him believe it!) that he's already been absolved or at least forgiven for everything.  But then, of course, we wouldn't have the Angst.

I wasn't looking to place any blame about Amara/the Darkness, or (actually) any of the things that were beyond their control, like breaking the first/final seal, Dean torturing in Hell, or anything Soulless!Sam or Demon!Dean did.  I'm just saying the characters are the ones who feel guilty/like they need redemption.  

[Partly]

Evil double post of bad cell connection!  There is nothing to see here. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by Partly

[mertensia]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Oh, also--Dean spent the year Sam was missing/in the Cage with Lisa and Ben, suffering horribly and trying everything he could to get him out.  Sam spent the year Dean was missing/in Purgatory with Amelia--playing with a dog.  Just sayin'!

Eh, I still firmly believe that Sam collapsed mentally. Dean is gone-who knows where. Cats is gone, too. He's alone and that's it. He just can't cope.