Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[7kstar]

Guess one of mine, is I wish there was one good guy higher up really on the boys side.  I don't see a problem with some good guys helping out the guys with higher powers.  So I wish they hadn't made every angel or God all negative and found a new way to tell the story. 

 

I don't think all dark, all evil is fun to watch.  Plus I really think they need to go less on the gore.  It doesn't scare me, it just makes me want to stop watching.  But then I really hate horror shows and if Jensen wasn't on this show, I would have dropped out a long time ago.  Sam has never been the one to pull me in.  In fact some of his best eps have come from not being with his brother in at least the last few season's.  I would like to believe that the boys being together would be fun to watch.

[Demented Daisy]

2) I loved Bela. I can't begin to justify it, but I just enjoyed her immensely.

 

8) I liked Jo.

 

 

I hate what they have done to Sam and I don't feel poor Sam isn't getting storylines, nor do I feel Dean isn't getting storylines.  I just don't like the storylines they give Dean sometimes.

 

 

Like Castiel fine, but don't see this "profound bond" and couldn't care less about it.

As much as I love Mark Sheppard, I can't figure out why Crowley is still on this show.

Could care less which character gets an arc or story, only care if it's interesting to watch.

 

 

Bring back some of the fun!!

 

 

I hate this DemonDean idea. I don't think it's surprising or interesting or creative or edgy.

 

 

I thought Abaddon was wasted as a character

 

 

I think the show has suffered terribly since Kripke stopped being the showrunner.

 

 

I like the Ghostfacers.

 

 

Yep, to all that.  And I'll add that I think Chuck is God and want them to bring him back.

 

ETA  Also, I didn't mind Scarecrow at first, but now when I watch it, all I think is, "We should have known."  11 episodes in and Sam is already taking off on Dean.  You know, I'm kind of surprised it took that long.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[Hana Chan]

I'm going to say it - Sam is my favorite and it's been killing me that for the past several seasons he's been less of a character and more of a plot point. The whole emotional weight of the show is primarily seen though Dean's perspective so it's not any kind of a surprise to me that Sam is made to look unsympathetic so often. Perhaps a lot of people wouldn't have turned on Sam's character so viciously in season 4 if we actually got to see something of Sam's despiration early on (before we learned about him hooking up with Ruby) and not merely as a flashback more than halfway though the season.

 

Castiel was okay at the begining, but I agree that he's long outlived any purpose on the show (as has the entire angel storyline). And It would be nice for someone (Dean) to remember that Castiel was actively working to shove him and Sam towards their "destiny" and set Sam up to make all the critical mistakes that allowed him to release Lucifer. I mean. Instead Castiel gets forgiven (and embraced as not just another brother, but at times a better one than Sam when Dean was feeling particularly peevish) while Sam spent several seasons being raked over the coals for what he did.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Hana Chan

[BellaLugosi]

I have to say I'm really shocked that liking Sam is an unpopular opinion! 

[SueB]

 

Perhaps a lot of people wouldn't have turned on Sam's character so viciously in season 4 if we actually got to see something of Sam's despiration early on (before we learned about him hooking up with Ruby) and mot merely as a flashback more than halfway though the season.

AMEN.  I'm doing a S4 rewatch with another site and they really do Sam a disservice.  Seeing S4 Sam through the eyes of the S9 Dean arc, my heart just breaks for Sam.  Short short version:

- I think Sam rationalizes going this path at the start out of pain and revenge (so VERY John-like)

- He drops Ruby for a while when he sees the slippery slope out of Metamorphis-

- I think he got back on the bad path at the end of Criss Angel is a Douchebag because of many reasons but protecting Dean is actually one of them

- His asshole rant under the Siren's influence feels real but the audience doesn't know about the junkie issue (whereas we saw Dean with the MoC influence)

- While Dean's personal weakness is enjoying killing things, Sam's is enjoying power.  BOTH are dark but Dean's is built up more understandably than Sams.

And I'll take the longer version to the All Seasons equivalent.

 

 

I have to say I'm really shocked that liking Sam is an unpopular opinion!

I adore Sam. I don't think liking him is an unpopular opinion but do agree that the writing has not supported Sam empathy as well as Dean since S4. On paper the plots are VERY pro-Sam, at the tactical level they are not accomplishing what I think they could/should and thus open Sam up to more criticism than warranted IMO.

Edited May 29, 2014 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

I adore Sam. I don't think liking him is an unpopular opinion but do agree that the writing has not supported Sam empathy as well as Dean since S4. On paper the plots are VERY pro-Sam, at the tactical level they are not accomplishing what I think they could/should and thus open Sam up to more criticism than warranted IMO.

 

I'm entirely bi-bro, so I adore both of them for different reasons. I think TPTB maybe see and understand Sam more than the audience does so they don't think they need to explain him to us--which is unfortunate because even though I can usually follow along, it does make it hard to get inside his head sometimes. Sometimes I feel like Dean gets so much POV because they don't really understand him themselves, so they spend a great deal more energy trying to make sure that we will "feel" him and sympathize with him. It could be a nice change of pace for us to walk with Sam once in a while though too.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm enjoying seeing what everyone else has been saying here. So many "unpopular" opinions. Interesting how we all see the show differently.

 

I love Swan Song.

 

Of course I agree with you on this one, SueB, and everything else that you said there about the episode (since I'm pretty sure I'm the one that corrupted you - sorry about that.)

 

Apart from one or two plot points, I really enjoyed season 7.

 

Entirely agree tinyurl. For me there were actually fun episodes again where despite Dean being depressed and Sam being somewhat insane, they actually had some fun together once in a while and they enjoyed hunting together. They worked out their differences. They communicated. There was "stone one," turducken sandwiches, salads of self-righteousness, and giant slinkies. When Dean, disappeared, Sam worked tirelessly to get him back. When Sam was dying, Dean saved him (without subterfuge and lying). I hated that Carver took this healing relationship and a Sam who listened to and cared about Dean and turned him into a character that I didn't recognize (There is no way he convinced me that Sam just wouldn't look for Dean or would abandon Kevin), and didn't give us any point of view as to why Sam would change this drasticly.

 

Other unpopular opinions:

 

1) I didn't think the purgatory story was all that interesting.

 

2) I could take Benny or leave him.

 

3) Although my reasons are complex, I didn't like that Sam tried to contact Crowley to save Dean*. Even though I don't think he was going to make a deal, I didn't want Sam to go against Dean's wishes to die rather than become something he didn't want. It made the brothers entire rift pointless, in my opinion, and if doesn't lead to both brothers agreeing that this is a bad and/or unhealthy thing, or it vallidates Dean's lying all that time (the real issue for me rather than Dean's initially letting Gadreel in), I'll be angry.

 

* Unless Sam was afraid that Dean's soul might go to hell, but that would've had to have been - or in the future be - specified that he was afraid of that.

 

4) I loved the episode "Ghostfacers."

 

5) Despite a few great episodes, season 4 wasn't one I liked over all as much as many of the others. I thought it went too over the top with the angst.

[Iamsweetdee]

Heh, I guess I'll win the award for the most unpopular-ist opinion of them all...I could not care less about Dean Winchester. As a matter of fact, I stopped watching the show regularly because I got tired of the gravelly voice, the "do what I say attitude," the "I know best" mindset. All of it. Just ugh. No, I have to amend my statement, I just realized that I really don't like Dean Winchester. 

[catrox14]

I don't think that's a particularly unpopular opinion.  It's not one that I share but I see quite a bit of Dean Winchester dislike out in the etherworld.  

 

Now if you had said you hated Baby...well, that would be a truly unpopular opinion. :)

[DittyDotDot]

NOBODY HATES BABY, NOBODY!!!

 

Hee!

[mstaken]

got tired of the gravelly voice,

 

I'm so with you on hating how his voice dropped about three octaves starting around Season 4, a ridiculous sounding growl that reminds me of someone doing a satirical imitation of Christian Bale's Batman and the smokes-four-packs-a-day, perpetually laryngitis-afflicted cafeteria lady who worked at my Junior High. When he and Mischa start doing the whispery/growl thing (which is in pretty much every scene they share), my UO is that it's not the least bit intense or dramatic or sexy or whatever else they're going for---they just sound like two kids trying to imitate their favorite superheroes and not doing so very successfully. Which I guess relates to my UO that the Dean/Castiel relationship just doesn't do it for me at all. It's never struck me as "profound" and special or even all that well-developed or interesting, let alone romantic. 

Edited June 2, 2014 by mstaken

[catrox14]

I fanwank Dean's lower register to being in Hell for 40 years and then in Purgatory for a year.  Like all the screaming and yelling etc damaged his vocal chords.  But IRL Jensen's voice has gotten deeper as he's aged, so when he goes lower register with Dean now, ti's even more pronounced.

[Aeryn13]

I think after nine years the shine is off everything. And I know, blasphemy but even the car. It had a certain cult status early on for me while these days it`s mostly just a car.

 

Other UOs, I guess:  Carver isn`t the worst showrunner they`ve had. Is he good? Nope. But I don`t see him as worse than Gamble. Or even, another blasphemy, Kripke. The latter just had the reigns when the shine wasn`t completely off yet. Granted when it was on I absolutely hated Season 3, I thought nothing could be worse than this dreck. Until I watched the Season 5 Finale. Or Season 6. Or Season 7. Or the second part of Season 8. And Season 3 suddenly seemed way less offensive than I remembered. That doesn`t actually mean it didn`t still suck, though. So that`s kinda how I view Kripke`s era. He had the fortune of having the good Seasons in it and the stuff that - in retrospect - sucks less. And Singer who was there for it all? Increasingly meh.

 

They all had their hits and misses. Often misses. 

 

 

Which I guess relates to my UO that the Dean/Castiel relationship just doesn't do it for me at all. It's never struck me as "profound" and special or even all that well-developed or interesting, let alone romantic.

 

It, too, has been too wishy-washy for years now. And the revolving door of Castiel appearances  "oh, we found a reason to keep him around for a bit"  "gotcha, we found an even stupider reason why he exits stage left" has become somewhat of a running joke.

 

In that vein, another UO:  I don`t think there has been a good scene between the brothers since, I don`t know, early Season 5 maybe? Earlier?

 

There was some fake-emotional stuff with horrid dialogue, like the Season 8 Finale, Season 9 Opener and even the Finale, mostly revolving around the old "as I lay dying" chestnut. Like any of them actually die. But even without these grandesque moments which don`t work IMO, the day-to-day stuff? While Dean still hangs onto Sam as much as ever, even he doesn`t seem to know why anymore. It`s mostly because of reasons. And Sam looks like he perma-sucks a lemon when it comes to his brother. People who hate each other have better chemistry.      

Edited June 2, 2014 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

I think after nine years the shine is off everything. And I know, blasphemy but even the car. It had a certain cult status early on for me while these days it`s mostly just a car.

 

/gasp

 

But Baby got a new engine and she's souped up and it's beautiful. She carries all their monster/demon hunting stuff. She was mauled and defaced by Abaddon's minions and it broke Dean's heart.  IMO that was almost as significant as Dean getting the MoC.. I'm not actually kidding about that.

[DittyDotDot]

I think after nine years the shine is off everything. And I know, blasphemy but even the car. It had a certain cult status early on for me while these days it`s mostly just a car.

 

Blasphemy indeed! ;)

 

Other UOs, I guess:  Carver isn`t the worst showrunner they`ve had. Is he good? Nope. But I don`t see him as worse than Gamble. Or even, another blasphemy, Kripke. The latter just had the reigns when the shine wasn`t completely off yet. Granted when it was on I absolutely hated Season 3, I thought nothing could be worse than this dreck. Until I watched the Season 5 Finale. Or Season 6. Or Season 7. Or the second part of Season 8. And Season 3 suddenly seemed way less offensive than I remembered. That doesn`t actually mean it didn`t still suck, though. So that`s kinda how I view Kripke`s era. He had the fortune of having the good Seasons in it and the stuff that - in retrospect - sucks less. And Singer who was there for it all? Increasingly meh.

 

They all had their hits and misses. Often misses.

 

I don't think Kripke is a God either, I think he lucked out and managed to have this particular group of people that worked well off each other. I think losing Kim Manners was a bigger loss the show took than losing Kripke. If he didn't have the people he did though, this show would have never made it to a second season, IMO. I've found Carver more frustrating than Gamble only because everyone seems out of character, they both had lackadaisical storylines though.

 

In that vein, another UO:  I don`t think there has been a good scene between the brothers since, I don`t know, early Season 5 maybe? Earlier?

 

Do you mean a nice, warm, fuzzy brotherly bonding moment or just any scene between the brothers in general? I don't think either could be out of the realm of possibility, but I did think there was a couple nice moments at the end of S6 and early in S7.  It has been a long while since we've seen them actually act like they like each other since, though.

Edited June 2, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[ParadoxLost]

/gasp

 

But Baby got a new engine and she's souped up and it's beautiful. She carries all their monster/demon hunting stuff. She was mauled and defaced by Abaddon's minions and it broke Dean's heart.  IMO that was almost as significant as Dean getting the MoC.. I'm not actually kidding about that.

 

They killed the Impala when it stopped the apocalypse.  That was the exact moment the eye rolling took the shine off the Impala.  They might as well have had it jump a shark.  Which, thinking about that, I'd like to see.  I'm surprised they haven't done 'Christine' with Dean and the Impala yet.

 

I also have a hard time getting too invested in any of Dean's relationships because he's such a special snowflake.  Everyone on the show has Dean as the favorite of the brothers.  Bobby, Cas, and Crowley.  Everyone.  Sam is such a second class citizen.  The end of this season was really irritating on that front.  Then Dean inevitably looks like a jerk when the plot point is inserted that requires Dean to choose between them, usually Sam and Cas.  Case in point, Dean exiling human Cas to keep Sam from learning about his angelic hitchhiker.

[mertensia]

I like Rachel Miner's Meg much more than Nicki Aycox's. 

 

I don't really care about Castiel and I have yet to see all this amazing chemistry between Castiel and Dean that everyone else sees.

 

I think Becky is an excellent representation of the uberfan that no one really likes that I have found in many fandoms.

 

I always figured Dean's gravelly voice is partially due to the various injuries he's gotten over the years, especially from Alastair (I doubt Zachariah healed him terribly much). 

[DittyDotDot]

I think I have one of the most unpopular opinions of all--I am neither a Dean fan or a Sam fan--I'm totally bi-bro. I think both brothers have their strengths and weaknesses and have both been disserviced by TPTB fairly evenly over the years. I guess I would say that I'm a Supernatural fan, but even that's getting harder and harder to say over the last year or so.

[ElleryAnne]

They killed the Impala when it stopped the apocalypse.  That was the exact moment the eye rolling took the shine off the Impala.

 

 

Agreed.  I've always thought of the Impala as the closest thing Dean has to a home, and I loved it based on that. But that's mainly a carry-over from the early seasons.  It doesn't have the same symbolic meaning since the apocalypse, when it attained its own Very Special status.  But it'll always be Metallicar to me, and I still love it for that.

 

 

I am neither a Dean fan or a Sam fan--I'm totally bi-bro. I think both brothers have their strengths and weaknesses and have both been disserviced by TPTB fairly evenly over the years.

 

 

I'm right there with you.  I love both brothers.  I've hated some of their arcs, but I still love Dean and Sam.  

[amazinglybored]

Figuring out what's an UO is always a little difficult.

 

- Castiel, I'm pretty neutral on him. Sometimes I like him, sometimes I don't, but most of the time I don't really care. Now, season 4 Castiel was a different story.

- This show never had a great showrunner, it's been discussed, but I don't think they have. Probably not even a good one, tbh. They've all just been lucky.

- We see Sam's pov a fair bit.

- I like the Ghostfacers, before they got ruined last season, they make me laugh.

- The Impala is my second favourite part of the show.

- I liked Jo in the episode they killed her off and ghost!Jo.

- I didn't like Sam in the beginning, so, ever, even if it wasn't hate... I thought he would grow into a character I could like, er... he didn't, he just got way worse, because what is not a major problem at 20/22 is at 30 after multiple seasons of it being increased.

- This show has had some great female characters, that they then killed off. They actually have had a significant number of great characteres that they killed or ruined. It's mind boggling how bad they are with that.

- The angels need to go.

- This show on HBO or Showtime would have been a different beast and probably vastly superior. It wouldn't be cleaned up hunters and a higher standard of quality.

- They haven't had a good Carry on My Wayward Son for awhile now.

- Is just wanting Sam to stfu and go away unpopular? Because yeah... I can't handle him at all any more and I doubt this show lasts long enough to fix that with me, because their latest attempt with no actuall redemption isn't going to work and even realy trying won't have enough time.

- I don't really like this show any more. I like specific parts of it but that's it... they keep killing off things I like.

- Keep the shippers away from me, I used to be able to handle it but at this point I can't. Stay away from internet me and stop trying to make shit canon.

 

In that vein, another UO:  I don`t think there has been a good scene between the brothers since, I don`t know, early Season 5 maybe? Earlier?

 

I think I agree with this. Maybe even season 4 before things went to hell, it's hard to have a good moment when someone is a lying, addicted, egomaniacal douche. I don't think the writers realize that sometimes you can't go back or that they needed to really fix things.

[DittyDotDot]

They haven't had a good Carry on My Wayward Son for awhile now.

 

I'd go as far as to say the first one was the only good one.

[amazinglybored]

I'd go as far as to say the first one was the only good one.

 

I wouldn't fight you on that, but I liked S3's and IIRC S2. S4, maybe, idk, I think that's around the end of it working for me. Anyway, I think it's been overdone at this point.

[catrox14]

Re: Carry on My Wayward Son usage. I think other than s6 and 7 it's worked pretty well.

 

s1 Dean rests his head until John makes a deal

S2 Sam rests his head until Dean makes a deal.

S3 Dean rests his head in Hell :(. Sorry Dean, no deal but rescue from Hell by Cas.

S4 they both looked to be resting their heads when Lucifer rose (for all the problems the brothers had in s4 they both rested their heads together!)

s5- Sam rests his head in 5 in Hell.

S6 and S7 were not very good for that allegory unless Cas becoming God or Dean and Cas going to Purgatory counts.

s8- The boys opted out of resting their heads but they did it together.  

And in the 9.23 finale. Dean rests his head again.....in the worst possible way imaginable.

 

I think s1,s2,s3 and s9 it's worked the best.

Edited June 3, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Sorry catrox, it's not the idea that I find not so good, it's the execution. The way they did the montage the first season was really awesome and I really liked it, but since then it's felt like a progressively more tired version of the first one. This season they started off the montage with those flying monkeys from Slumber Party--I couldn't even figure out what they were at first.

 

In general, I'm not much a montage or previouslies person. If you haven't been watching the show, then those little clips at the beginning of the episodes is really not going to make the plot make sense and if you have been watching you already know it so it feels like a waste of screen time to me. But, I did really love the first Carry On My Wayward Son and they had some previouslies in S2 that I really liked.

[catrox14]

Probably my most UO is that I don't like Bobby anymore. I liked him in the first few seasons but that wore off by the time the killed him off.  

 

Sorry catrox, it's not the idea that I find not so good, it's the execution.

Ah, I see what you mean.  I guess I don't pay that much attention to what's in the montages as much but I more attach to the themes of the season with the song. 

[amazinglybored]

Probably my most UO is that I don't like Bobby anymore. I liked him in the first few seasons but that wore off by the time the killed him off.

 

I loathed him by the end, he's one of the characters they ruined and then dragged out.

[Guest]

In general, I'm not much a montage or previouslies person. If you haven't been watching the show, then those little clips at the beginning of the episodes is really not going to make the plot make sense and if you have been watching you already know it so it feels like a waste of screen time to me. But, I did really love the first Carry On My Wayward Son and they had some previouslies in S2 that I really liked.

 

And even worse?  When they show someone or something that hasn't been around for a while; you know it's going to be relevant in the episode and that takes the punch out when it finally shows up.  I try and avoid spoilers (or did before this gig) and to be spoiled by the previouslies really chaps my butt.

[Pete Martell]

I think after nine years the shine is off everything. And I know, blasphemy but even the car. It had a certain cult status early on for me while these days it`s mostly just a car.

 

Other UOs, I guess:  Carver isn`t the worst showrunner they`ve had. Is he good? Nope. But I don`t see him as worse than Gamble. Or even, another blasphemy, Kripke. The latter just had the reigns when the shine wasn`t completely off yet. Granted when it was on I absolutely hated Season 3, I thought nothing could be worse than this dreck. Until I watched the Season 5 Finale. Or Season 6. Or Season 7. Or the second part of Season 8. And Season 3 suddenly seemed way less offensive than I remembered. That doesn`t actually mean it didn`t still suck, though. So that`s kinda how I view Kripke`s era. He had the fortune of having the good Seasons in it and the stuff that - in retrospect - sucks less. And Singer who was there for it all? Increasingly meh.  

 

Kripke is overrated. To me he proved that with Revolution, where all of his flaws at SPN (gay-baiting, inability to write for women, inability to plot, etc.) were there to see, without any of the help he had at SPN, like Kim Manners, or some of the cast who helped elevate SPN. Kripke created all of the problems that the show currently has. The hostility toward women and apathy/hostility to POC. The inability to pace storylines. The long, slow rot of the brother relationship. Sam having no POV and drowning in his own past actions that the show never knew how to address. The inability to create frightening or interesting long-term villains. The inability to properly regulate between comedy and drama. Smugness and bizarre fascination with his own cleverness. Overbaked, overexposed meta commentary. Shock value deaths of any and every recurring character.

 

I still can't believe he spent 4 seasons getting to a season full of sitcom cliche smarmy boss Zachariah, and sad panda Lucifer, who was about as menacing as Darlene Connor on Roseanne in her "goth" phase. 

 

Kripke managed to create two very solid seasons and then went off the rails. For all the talk of the good old days, he did more to destroy Sam, and the Sam and Dean bond, than anything I have seen since (although I thought the writing for Sam in early season 8 was pure garbage).

 

If we're really being unpopular, I don't think season 3 is all that much better than what we have now. The good episodes are certainly better, but the main flaws are still there - they bungled Dean's story very badly in the early episodes with sledgehammer writing (Dean would never interrupt the middle of a conversation about a case so he could do sexy talk with a woman on the phone), they bungled Bela, they had huge tonal problems, they had no idea how to do comedy. There is too much empty gore and misery with no payoff, which ruins even some potentially great episodes, like Jus in Belo. Looking back, I'm still awed at how they took such an emotional, dramatic end of season 2 and pissed it all away in "Magnificent Seven," which I would probably still put as the worst season premiere.

 

Season 4 is better in terms of a coherent story arc, but it's one of those that doesn't hold up as well in repeat viewer, as it drowns in grimness and once again Kripke seems to have no respect for the intelligence of the viewer (all the awful strained analogies to brother conflict - I still cringe at Barry Bostwick's "he was like my brother!" wailing - and Dean literally giving the same speech about torture in Hell in two back-to-back episodes, muddying the power of the original scene). For me the best part of season 4 is the buildup of the angels, although after Uriel dies and Zachariah comes along, that is severely tarnished.

 

Carver has many, many flaws, but I do think he at least sees the importance of a coherent arc for Dean's character beyond "save Sammy!" and emo porn. Kripke did his best to make Dean irrelevant in any way beyond Sam's crutch, and Gamble clearly had no idea what to do with the character (or any character). Carver I think has given Dean a lot of fascinating and layered material, and he's the one who has come closest to writing Dean as something beyond a tear in Sam's eye, although I don't know if that will last. I hope it does.

 

My other UO would be that I really don't think Sera Gamble "got" Sam at all. I think she had her idea of Sam, but it veered so closely to superhuman stud and uber-hunter, which is never what Sam was about.

 

The only person who has ever been in charge of the show who understood Sam was Kripke, which is bitterly ironic, since he's the one who destroyed the character.

 

I tend to blame Singer for most of the show's problems, as he's been there while various showrunners have come and gone, and some things never change.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

I'm going to say it - Sam is my favorite and it's been killing me that for the past several seasons he's been less of a character and more of a plot point. The whole emotional weight of the show is primarily seen though Dean's perspective so it's not any kind of a surprise to me that Sam is made to look unsympathetic so often. Perhaps a lot of people wouldn't have turned on Sam's character so viciously in season 4 if we actually got to see something of Sam's despiration early on (before we learned about him hooking up with Ruby) and not merely as a flashback more than halfway though the season.

 

Castiel was okay at the begining, but I agree that he's long outlived any purpose on the show (as has the entire angel storyline). And It would be nice for someone (Dean) to remember that Castiel was actively working to shove him and Sam towards their "destiny" and set Sam up to make all the critical mistakes that allowed him to release Lucifer. I mean. Instead Castiel gets forgiven (and embraced as not just another brother, but at times a better one than Sam when Dean was feeling particularly peevish) while Sam spent several seasons being raked over the coals for what he did.

 

The show barely lets Dean and Cas interact, but I would like to see them talk about some of the distrust between them, which Dean brought up in Stairway to Heaven, much to Sam and Cas' shock. I think they don't have Dean dwell as much on season 4 because the time that Cas was most actively involved in manipulating Sam and Dean was when he was being tortured and brainwashed. For everything in season 4 up to that point (episode 21), he was generally trying to help Dean.

[amazinglybored]

My other UO would be that I really don't think Sera Gamble "got" Sam at all. I think she had her idea of Sam, but it veered so closely to superhuman stud and uber-hunter, which is never what Sam was about.

 

I'll second this. IMO, Gamble loved Sam (/JP?) and wanted him to be the most perfect, awesome thing ever. She didn't get him but she damn well wanted him to be the bestest evah. I think she just wanted him to be the most popular badass, aka Dean because he was what she wanted Sam to be, the most popular.

 

 

 

The only person who has ever been in charge of the show who understood Sam was Kripke, which is bitterly ironic, since he's the one who destroyed the character.

 

Eh, idk if Kripke did either. I think he tended to get caught up in his self insert Sue. Similar to Gamble but more controlled by having better talent around him. I guess you could say he got Sam's need for normal but so does Carver, and Kripke did uber hunter Sam as well. I'm not actually sure if any of them ever got Sam as a character, I'm not sure Sam has ever been a character. A real character. He started as Kripke's avatar and was a Sue, and has been a plot device for most of the show. I think that's why they struggle with the character so much.

 

It's pretty funny tbh. I think they've all grasped the negatives for better or worse, probably accidentally.

[mstaken]

Sam having no POV and drowning in his own past actions that the show never knew how to address.

 

Heh---I'll be even more unpopular and admit that I don't think Sam was ever, even in the comparatively halcyon early days, defined as a character much at all. It seems almost inconceivable that a show with just two lead characters could have totally neglected to give one of them salient, consistent characteristics and something resembling a personality, but SPN seems to have accomplished that feat :)

 

Dean, for all the complaints about him not being sufficiently utilized and appreciated, was IMO given a vibrant, well-defined character, and a classically "heroic" one at that: charming, brave, life-loving, adventurous, tough yet sweetly vulnerable (especially when it comes to young children!), a guy's guy who loves booze and has a manly appetite, a big hit with the ladies, prone to snappy and witty one-liners, fiercely protective of those he cares about, and (as someone mentioned) singled out as a "favorite" by the other characters like Bobby, Castiel,etc...and by heaven, who thought he was just too righteous and special not to save :)  It was easier to like Dean, particularly when he was still "the fun, tough and brave one" whose one flaw was that he just didn't have the ego to know how gosh darn special he was, and before they made him a more wallowing, emo-ish lush in later seasons.  

 

Sam, meanwhile, was IMO given very few traits at all, and the ones he did get were mostly negative: the uptight, prideful, tense, pouty killjoy who wasn't nearly as fun or loyal or funny or charming as his brother. His alleged empathy was often shown to be forced, used mostly as a technique by which he could extract information from people rather than stemming from genuine compassion. Even his one alleged positive trait, book smarts, was often either not in evidence or pointed out as irrelevant.  

 

So while I think JP's facial expressions and line deliveries have made the character even less likable than he had to be, I blame the writers just as much for the Suckiness of Sam, and hold the UO of thinking his characterization (or lack thereof) was a problem from the outset of the series. Even when I liked him, it was due to quite a lot of "I'm thinking he's this sort of person since, well, the writers haven't actually told us differently..." fanwanking and because I relate to being just a tad tense, serious and uptight ;) 

Edited June 3, 2014 by mstaken

[Pete Martell]

I agree with both of you about Sam, but I do think the show was better at defining him in the first three seasons. His characterization in season 3 was probably the most consistent part of the season. I think there were various sides to Sam that were lost after season 3.

 

I think it was a grievous mistake giving him a "dark" arc, as the show never knew how to bring him back from that.

 

I also think there was some effort to remind us of what a stud he was, which never entirely made sense to me, because, obviously, Sam enjoyed sex, but I thought the show exploited this well enough in the first two seasons. The whole sexual relationship with Ruby and then the sex with the doctor - I've never understood those choices. I'm not trying to be sex negative, or whatever the term may be, it's just that there seemed to be this implication that we knew Sam was a bad boy now because he was getting some tail. 

[DittyDotDot]

I think it was a grievous mistake giving him a "dark" arc, as the show never knew how to bring him back from that.

 

 

I just think they got so wrapped up in the mystery of it all, they forgot to show the audience how Sam felt about himself and his own actions. That's the main difference for me between what happened with Dean this season. Almost each and every episode before he took on the Mark of Cain, and a few after, ended with us seeing his wounded face and his hurt feelings. I can connect with that, even though it became rather tiring to me. Whereas, in S4 they still showed us Dean's hurt and betrayal ala Sam, never did we see how Sam felt about his own actions. I assume he regretted many of his actions and I assumed he felt bad about them--maybe he didn't though--but those are assumptions on my part because we never saw it either way.

[amazinglybored]

 

I agree with both of you about Sam, but I do think the show was better at defining him in the first three seasons. His characterization in season 3 was probably the most consistent part of the season. I think there were various sides to Sam that were lost after season 3.

 

What do you think was lost?

 

 

I think it was a grievous mistake giving him a "dark" arc, as the show never knew how to bring him back from that.

 

It was a mistake. I'm not sure if they even thought they'd have to do a redemption beyond him falling into the bad cgi hole, I think that was supposed to be his redemption arc. That and everyone saying it wasn't his fault. They thought they knew how to bring him back from that and they didn't, it was an overly simplistic approach. That's created the ongoing issue with the attempts to make him sympathetic, heroic and whatever, it's this loop of pathetic redemption arcs that all fall to the same problems. I think there's a disconnect with them being unwilling to really believe he needs to be redeemed and then realizing there's a problem. I'm not actually sure they really know how to do a redemption arc, though .And, personally, I don't think it played to JP's strengths as an actor and that exacerbated issues with Sam.

 

 

I also think there was some effort to remind us of what a stud he was, which never entirely made sense to me, because, obviously, Sam enjoyed sex, but I thought the show exploited this well enough in the first two seasons. The whole sexual relationship with Ruby and then the sex with the doctor - I've never understood those choices. I'm not trying to be sex negative, or whatever the term may be, it's just that there seemed to be this implication that we knew Sam was a bad boy now because he was getting some tail.

 

Giving them a smidgen of artistic merit, they were trying to make him an adult and independent; failing, naturally. They are weird about sex, though, so it could have just been Sam being bad. TBH, Sam having sex with someone could be considered evil looking at the death count. ;)

 

What I really think happened was them trying to make Sam more popular and badass, the sex thing (largely unseen implications) worked for Dean and muscles on display. I always thought that Sam wasn't as popular as they wanted him to be and there's been many attempts to correct that.  A slight plot element but largely "Oh, look at Sam being a badboy having sex like that, look at his body... is it working?"

 

The hooker offering SS free sex still makes me laugh.

[AwesomO4000]

It was easier to like Dean, particularly when he was still "the fun, tough and brave one" whose one flaw was that he just didn't have the ego to know how gosh darn special he was

 

Heh. This is what made me start to think of Dean as more the Mary Sue character than Sam, especially once the writers started taking away some of his smaller "flaws" that we saw in the early seasons. And season 4 really started to bug me in that regard. Despite all of the endless crap piled on to Dean in that season - and in my opinion they really over did it - he still managed to be the nicest guy ever and never really faltered. So I guess that's another Unpopular Opinion for me. I saw Dean more as the Mary Sue character than Sam.

 

For me Sam was too often proved wrong, failed, or both to be a Mary Sue. Three of the major characteristics of a Mary Sue is that he/she always saves the day, all of the other characters like him/her best, and he/she's only flaw is something like caring too much; none of which describes Sam. At all. Sure Sam got one win, but he has plenty of character flaws which the show and plenty of other characters point out for him all the time. All of those characteristics however, in my opinion, describe Dean. I still like Dean, but I actually relate to him much less now that he's less flawed and more Mary Sue.

 

I guess you could say he [Kripke] got Sam's need for normal but so does Carver

 

Kripke started moving Sam away from wanting "normal" in season 2 though, and by season 5 he had Sam outright telling Dean that that "apple-pie family crap" was stressful and that he and Dean "didn't miss a damn thing." (direct Sam quotes). So actually when Carver resurrected Sam "wanting normal" in season 8, I thought he was showing that he didn't know Sam much at all - well that and the not having Sam look for Dean and abandon Kevin showed me that - because "wanting normal" in my opinion no longer fit where Sam's character had evolved in one of the few ways Sam had actually evolved. So Carver took that away, along with Sam's caring for Dean and wanting to save people that he showed in season 7 and returned Sam to some early season 1 or season 4 version.

 

So I'm not sure if it's unpopular or not, but I believe Carver in season 8 did the most damage to Sam as a character (for me anyway), which is ironic since he earlier cowrote one of my favorite Sam episodes ever where Sam did almost the complete opposite of the things Carver had him do in season 8.

Edited June 4, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[TnTexas]

My opinion that's probably the most unpopular? From a storytelling perspective, I really think the series should have ended at the end of season 5 with "Swan Song" - minus the ending scene of Sam standing on the sidewalk. The John Winchester/YED storyline that the show had started out with had been dealt with. Sam had been allowed to correct and atone for his enormous mistake. Dean was free to make what he wanted of his future. To me it just felt like a bittersweet but solid ending to the series.

Obviously, that's not what happened. And what we've had since then - although I've enjoyed a lot of it  - has been a confusing mess. There's been a glaring lack of continuity at times. A downward emotional spiral, both in the tone of the episodes and within the characters themselves. An erosion of the brothers' relationship. And storylines that seem to repeat themselves over and over and over and over and ..... It's been a bit like being stuck in Mystery Spot, just on a larger scale.

I'm tired of this show doing crap like this because they think it will be "awesome" and "edgy", but they rarely actually develop it well enough to make it so.

 

 

I totally agree with this. Coherent, in-depth storyline/plot/character development really isn't the show's strong point. Not at all.

[mertensia]

Kripke started moving Sam away from wanting "normal" in season 2 though, and by season 5 he had Sam outright telling Dean that that "apple-pie family crap" was stressful and that he and Dean "didn't miss a damn thing." (direct Sam quotes).

 

The problem is that the life Sam got shoved into was a sucky one. The kid was basically being pushed to do what the parents wanted. OK, yeah, I can see the parallels with John. But still, had he ended up in a kid who had a great, supportive home life he might well have thought differently. 

[AwesomO4000]

The problem is that the life Sam got shoved into was a sucky one. The kid was basically being pushed to do what the parents wanted. OK, yeah, I can see the parallels with John. But still, had he ended up in a kid who had a great, supportive home life he might well have thought differently.

 

This is true, but there had still been potential. The kid had been relatively smart, so there had been the potential for college, and there had been the very good  potential for a girlfriend even, so the kid's life wasn't that bad. Actually it was fairly "normal." For me it was more that Sam didn't really fit with that kind of life anymore. It wasn't the first time or the last that Sam embraced his non-normal lifestyle either. He mentioned to Jesse that being a freak wasn't a bad thing, and there was at least one more instance, but unfortunately it's not coming to me when the second instance I'm trying to think of was.

 

Sam also wasn't happy in his "normal" tech life in "It's a Terrible Life" either. The first "dreams" Sam had and he was looking for a way out of normal. And it's true that that job wasn't the greatest, but how was being a handyman in an apartment complex - or whatever Sam was supposedly doing to support himself in season 8 - supposed to be any more exciting or fullfilling?

 

For me, moving away from wanting normal was one progression in Sam's character that did make sense and fit with his other evolving traits - especially his wanting to make up for his past mistakes, which he wasn't going to do while being "normal." Even after suposedly being '"zen" with himself, Sam still in season 7 was saying that hunting was the only thing that made him feel right and balanced. I just never really bought that the Sam from the later seasons would be content with normal anymore, and since there was no real explanation in the narrative of season 8 for why Sam changed his mind, it never made sense to me.

[ElleryAnne]

 season 5 he had Sam outright telling Dean that that "apple-pie family crap" was stressful and that he and Dean "didn't miss a damn thing."

 

 

I've never fully believed Sam when he said things like that.  It always seemed to me to have a touch of... not sour grapes, exactly,  but that feeling where you know you can't have something so you tell yourself it wouldn't have worked anyway, but you never quite believe yourself.  I think a part of Sam always has and always will want that apple pie life, but he's resigned to the fact that it's not his fate.  So he moves on from it.  

Edited June 4, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[DittyDotDot]

I've never fully believed Sam when he said things like that.  It always seemed to me to have a touch of... not sour grapes, exactly,  but that feeling where you know you can't have something so you tell yourself it wouldn't have worked anyway, but you never quite believe yourself.  I think a part of Sam always has and always will want that apple pie life, but he's resigned to the fact that it's not his fate.  So he moves on from it.  

 

I would go a little further and say I don't think that either Sam or Dean really know what an "apple-pie life" is--it's more of a fantasy or illusion. What they know of normal is what they viewed from the outside looking in--and to be honest, there is no real normal. So, I do think that a part of Sam will always want what he thinks would be safe and simple and he would be happy, but I also think that Sam has learned that those things don't really exist for anyone. Nobody's life is totally safe and simple, but people find happiness regardless.

[ElleryAnne]

people find happiness regardless.

 

 

Other people do, anyway.  Sam and Dean can't catch a break. ;P

 

The longer they're on the road, the worse it gets.  Sam's entire childhood was spent as the son of a hunter, and yet he probably at one time could have had a normal life with Jessica - even though he knew there were monsters out there.  Of course, once he learned he was YED's favorite chew toy all bets were forever off for Sam having a normal life.  (Or Dean, but I don't think he ever wanted one as much as Sam did.)

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I think Dean liked the idea of home and family more than the reality. And, yes, Sam and Dean never, ever catch a break.

[ElleryAnne]

I think Dean liked the idea of home and family more than the reality.

 

 

ITA.   Especially in the early seasons, Dean values the idea of home and family, and finds some of his purpose in his role as a protector of those things.  But actually living that life wasn't his dream.  Even if Sam had never come back, life with Lisa and Ben would have been less fulfilling to Dean than the hunter's life.  (That's not to say he doesn't love them, because he does.)  Whereas Sam wanted a "normal" life for himself but realizes it's not in the cards, so he makes the best of the life he's got.

[Aeryn13]

 

 

people find happiness regardless.

 

 

Other people do, anyway.  Sam and Dean can't catch a break. ;P

 

Anyone remember all the mirrors they broke in Season 1 "Bloody Mary"? Foreshadowing? I almost believe so now.

 

 

Do you mean a nice, warm, fuzzy brotherly bonding moment or just any scene between the brothers in general?

 

There have been scenes where I could ignore the familial relationship so it was an okay scene between partners. Like, you could have such a scene in any buddy-cop dynamic. 

 

I meant a brotherly scene that didn`t make me go "I hate your relationship and you are THE worst people ever to be around each other". They used to have those. Yet I can`t recall even one in the last few years. I mean, there were ones I outright hated like in Fallen Crapols, Point of No Return, Suck Song or the Season 8 Finale. Vile all around. But more than that, they didn`t have a single moment where I enjoyed them as brothers like in Seasons 1 and 2. 

 

I`ll also second (or third?) the Carry on my wayward son blah-ness. And I`m a big sucker for musical montages. However, it worked so well in Season 1 because it was something new and nifty. Already when they did it in Season 2, I was like "oh, this is gonna be a thing now...okay". Nowadays, I don`t give a crap what the montage is about, it bugs me that it is so goddamn repetitious. 

 

Just like Bobby ended up being catankerous and saying "balls" every five seconds. Have those writers never heard of Flanderization? 

 

Another UO. Well, possibly one. I absolutely hated Missouri and found Loretta Devine`s line readings awful. She played exactly that kind of character that is like nails on chalkboard. And it wasn`t just because she was an asshole to Dean, she was an asshole to everyone in that episode. I don`t know why for one random episode Sam actually liked someone pulling out the diapers when it came to him. But that client, that woman in the house. Just urgh. And incompetent as fuck.

Pamela was a million times better.   

[amazinglybored]

Another UO. Well, possibly one. I absolutely hated Missouri and found Loretta Devine`s line readings awful. She played exactly that kind of character that is like nails on chalkboard. And it wasn`t just because she was an asshole to Dean, she was an asshole to everyone in that episode. I don`t know why for one random episode Sam actually liked someone pulling out the diapers when it came to him. But that client, that woman in the house. Just urgh. And incompetent as fuck.

 

Seconded, the weird pauses, ugh. It sucks because the character could have potentially been great, the psychic who was there when John was getting started. That's the story of the episode,,, the show, though. I really didn't care for how she treated Dean, you'd think the mindreader would realize what he was going through and not be an asshole. She was an asshole in general with a bloated ego and lack of boundaries. But largely she was useless and that irked; she seemed cliche. God she was a wasted opportunity. Sam being played was shown in that episode, sympathy and ego stroking made him like her.

 

The fawning over Sam was comical then and in hindsight, tbh. OTT then, and now after 9 seasons and Amelia assholes are drawn to him, that's who the writers think he'd be with or like. Oh, show.

 

 

 

Pamela was a million times better.

 

Seconded. Another UO, I really liked Pamela but I didn't love her the way it seems like everyone else did.

Edited June 4, 2014 by amazinglybored

[trxr4kids]

In no particular order.....I'm sick to death of the angst!!! I miss the balance. The angels are annoying and childish(even Cas). If they really wanted to give Sam a hero arc, they should've had him keep Dean from going to/or rescue him from hell. That would've avoided so much crap. Lucifer was a whiny whiner who whines. Mary was a moron because she made a deal with unspecified terms.

[catrox14]

 

If they really wanted to give Sam a hero arc, they should've had him keep Dean from going to/or rescue him from hell.

 

That was the original plan until the writer's strike shortened their season. But I'm actually glad they did send Dean to Hell, because it was an actual consequence.

[trxr4kids]

 

But I'm actually glad they did send Dean to Hell, because it was an actual consequence.

That's a good point and it would've sucked had he been saved from his own stupidity. However they still could have had Sam rescue him without angels or demonic powers, they've done it in fanfic(I think), why not the show?

[Aeryn13]

 

That's a good point and it would've sucked had he been saved from his own stupidity. However they still could have had Sam rescue him without angels or demonic powers, they've done it in fanfic(I think), why not the show?

 

In the original version he would have used his dark powerzzzz to do it.

 

And even though they still trashed it in the end but thank God for the writer`s strike. I would have hated Sam Sue-saving Dean from hell with the power of a million suns. I hated those fanfics as well but at least those were just stories on the net. I was so excited for Dean going to hell because I figured finally, finally he would get drawn into the supernatural mytharc from it. Well, yes and no. Joke was on me. But Season 3 I was close to stop watching because Sam Sueing it up was exactly the ending I feared.

[Demented Daisy]

However they still could have had Sam rescue him without angels or demonic powers, they've done it in fanfic(I think), why not the show?

 

 

Not sure if this is an unpopular opinion, but just because it was written in fan fiction, doesn't mean it was written well. ;-)

Edited June 4, 2014 by Demented Daisy