Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Male actors don't get sent out to pasture at 40 these days. I think J2M are heartthrobs that appeal to all ages and genders . MO, it was really only the CW that had that weird age thing but even then 40 doesn't seem to matter to the CW that much either for meaty supporting roles in the Arrowverse.

John Barrowman, for instance, just turned 50 and has played Malcolm Merlyn for 5 seasons. That's a critical supporting character for Oliver Queen. He had a lot of action sequences, heavy drama, fights and a really good stunt double LOL.  David Ramsey, Paul Blackthorne and Manu Bennett are in their 40s . Tom Cavanaugh and Jesse L Martin are in the 40s on the Flash playing meaningful supporting characters.  So even if Jensen wasn't necessarily a lead, he could get a cool supporting role with that awesome "and" credit. (BRUCE WAYNE, I'm just saying).  IMO it totally depends on the network etc. I'd like to see him move to some kind of prestige cable show where the writing would befit his talents.

35 to 45 seems to be a prime age for male actors to do action roles. For instance Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Chris Evans, Chris Pratt, Chris Pine and Ryan Reynolds are all in their late 30's and and 40's. RDJ is in his fifties still playing Tony Stark. Heck JDM is like 45 now playing the main villain on The Walking Dead.  At any rate Jensen IMO looks 35  and seems to be in tip top shape. . IMO, Jensen wouldn't have any trouble at all finding work at 40 in a good action movie, a new TV show or a small independent film.  He's not dead, yet! :).

I never said he was dead!  And I would watch him in anything, including reading the phone book :)  But I'm saying that he's pushing the limits for action-hero type roles, and it would be better to start going for more "grown-up" roles before he becomes (too) typecast as pretty-boy-but-getting-too-old hero.  Most of the actors still doing action roles in their 40s and 50s started earlier and aged into them (like Jensen has with Dean) or are the older-but-wiser support for the younger guys.  I'd just hate to see Jensen pushed off as support to a young twerp, even if it is a meaty role.  I want him to get respect for his abilities, not just his looks, and for that he has to stretch himself to more serious roles, IMO. I'd like to see him acting his age but still the star (think George Clooney?).  But that's just my preference. YMMV.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I never said he was dead!  And I would watch him in anything, including reading the phone book :)  But I'm saying that he's pushing the limits for action-hero type roles, and it would be better to start going for more "grown-up" roles before he becomes (too) typecast as pretty-boy-but-getting-too-old hero.  Most of the actors still doing action roles in their 40s and 50s started earlier and aged into them (like Jensen has with Dean) or are the older-but-wiser support for the younger guys.  I'd just hate to see Jensen pushed off as support to a young twerp, even if it is a meaty role.  I want him to get respect for his abilities, not just his looks, and for that he has to stretch himself to more serious roles, IMO. I'd like to see him acting his age but still the star (think George Clooney?).  But that's just my preference. YMMV.

IMO, many supporting roles are better written than the lead roles. Even in SPN, Metatron was an asshole but they wrote some great stuff for him. Same with Cain. Selfishly, if it takes a supporting role for him to get some damn Emmy/Golden Globe love some day, I'm fine with it. 

IMO, Jensen does the best fighting and best stunt work in the show NON stunt actors division.  I'll just agree to disagree that he's pushing the limits for an action role.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Even in SPN, Metatron was an asshole but they wrote some great stuff for him.

Agreed, I loved (to hate) Metatron and am sad that he is gone... and "Don't Call me Shurley" is one of my all time favorite episodes of the series, easily top 20, and that was partially due to the writing/dialogue there between Metatron and Chuck.

Edited to add: Sadly now that I think about it, Metatron's plot arc and interactions with Castiel - as awful as Metatron was being - was one of the few things I enjoyed about season 9. In my opinion, it was a more meaty plot arc - at least in the second half of the season - than Sam's was.

If I had my way, instead of being dead due to Amara, Metatron would be in the alternate universe.

Edited July 5, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, many supporting roles are better written than the lead roles. Even in SPN, Metatron was an asshole but they wrote some great stuff for him. Same with Cain. Selfishly, if it takes a supporting role for him to get some damn Emmy/Golden Globe love some day, I'm fine with it. 

IMO, Jensen does the best fighting and best stunt work in the show NON stunt actors division.  I'll just agree to disagree that he's pushing the limits for an action role.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying.  Not everything is a slur against Jensen!  Yes, he is still in fine shape, can still do the action and stunts, still looks wonderful.    Yes, Jensen (and Jared) appeal to many different ages and genders...at the moment.  You can't guarantee what will happen over the next 10 or twenty years, especially up against a new crop of perfect young superheroes, with a brand-new audience of 20-somethings when they're 50.  And yes, there are meaty supporting roles that are generally more interesting and have more depth than a callow lead.

BUT, what I'm saying is that actors in genre shows (especially on TV, and *ESPECIALLY* on the CW) can get typecast, especially if the only roles they're trying out for are similar action or genre films or shows.  I think Jensen is much more than a genre actor, and would be wonderful in mainstream "serious" films, but I think he should be thinking *now* about what he wants to do in the next 10-20 years *before* he gets completely typecast.  Maybe he wants to stay in genre films, and would enjoy supporting roles, like Bobby or Rufus.  But if you're saying he can't get any honors or recognitions now as a lead in a genre show, chances are he won't get anything in a supporting role.  It's the *type* of show that gets honored or awarded, not the actor, and I'd hate to see him getting lost in the sea of ever-younger superheroes.

Having said that, maybe that's what Jensen wants?  It's feasible he wants to do movies/shows that he personally enjoys and isn't worried about the future, because he has his brewery and might choose directing instead, and can always do voice work like his father.  I personally would think that's a waste, but that's just me.  

Edited July 5, 2017 by ahrtee

[MysteryGuest]

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

Or, maybe, they don't hate the show as much as all the viewers do.  I find it a little harder to understand why people (and apparently nobody but a few of us still even like this show) would watch a show they don't like anymore. There's no paycheck in it for them.

I don't think anyone who posts here hates the show.  I know I wouldn't watch, if I hated it.  It's because I love the show and the characters that I want it to be the best it can be.  I don't want them to just go through the motions, I want them to write something amazing.  It's the lost potential that bothers me the most.

14 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I guess another UO of mine is that the writing this year was no worse than what has come before! S12 was a lot better IMO than seasons 6, 8 and 9 for instance. IMO J2M aren't the type to quit / lose interest over bad writing or they'd have left long ago. Actually I lost some (not all!) respect for them over it! I've always admired actors, such as Sarah Michelle Gellar, who can see when a show is beginning to decline and quit while it's still decent rather than allow it to go on and on and on.

Well, I think there are a number of reasons why they've stayed with the show...job security, new families, great cast and crew, love their characters, etc.  But they both used to talk more about the show and what was coming up, and how they were looking forward to certain episodes/scenes.  They don't seem to do that much anymore. Maybe it's simply because no one asks, but I personally get a vibe that they've not been happy with the writing for at least the last 2 seasons.  

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying.  Not everything is a slur against Jensen!  Yes, he is still in fine shape, can still do the action and stunts, still looks wonderful.    Yes, Jensen (and Jared) appeal to many different ages and genders...at the moment.  You can't guarantee what will happen over the next 10 or twenty years, especially up against a new crop of perfect young superheroes, with a brand-new audience of 20-somethings when they're 50.  And yes, there are meaty supporting roles that are generally more interesting and have more depth than a callow lead.

I'm definitely not taking anything you're saying as a slur against Jensen, so I'm not really sure where that comes from. I'm just stating my own opinion and giving some reasons why I see it the way do. We just happen to disagree, that's all. 

I'm not talking about ten years down the road,  so I don't really understand where that time frame comes into this. The show isn't going to run another ten years at least not with J2. I'm saying given that it looks like the show is coming to it's end date IMO, with s14 if their recent con comments have merit with the 300 episode milestone. He's at a good age to still nab those action roles, IMO.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm definitely not taking anything you're saying as a slur against Jensen, so I'm not really sure where that comes from. I'm just stating my own opinion and giving some reasons why I see it the way do. We just happen to disagree, that's all. 

I'm not talking about ten years down the road,  so I don't really understand where that time frame comes into this. The show isn't going to run another ten years at least not with J2. I'm saying given that it looks like the show is coming to it's end date IMO, with s14 if their recent con comments have merit with the 300 episode milestone. He's at a good age to still nab those action roles, IMO.

Sorry, you were coming across as kind of defensive, as if I was saying Jensen was over the hill.  As I said, I think he's still in wonderful shape and agree that he can probably do the action roles for another 5 years or so.  The 10 year time frame is a suggestion that Jensen might plan for the future, *after* the show is over and he's getting a little too old for hero status and will be sidelined to supporting roles, no matter how meaty.  I'm suggesting he might want to start planning *now* by getting smaller roles in mainstream movies so that when the action roles do dry up he already has credibility/credentials in other genres.  It just seems logical to me.  I'd hate to see him wasted in sidekick roles, but maybe he'll just go into directing.  

Again, just my opinion.  No offense meant to anyone.

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But if you're saying he can't get any honors or recognitions now as a lead in a genre show, chances are he won't get anything in a supporting role.  It's the *type* of show that gets honored or awarded, not the actor, and I'd hate to see him getting lost in the sea of ever-younger superheroes.

Having said that, maybe that's what Jensen wants?  It's feasible he wants to do movies/shows that he personally enjoys and isn't worried about the future, because he has his brewery and might choose directing instead, and can always do voice work like his father.  I personally would think that's a waste, but that's just me.

I was using the Arrowverse to demonstrate that male actors over 40 on the CW still get good roles,and are still seen as sexy and vital etc. I also mentioned that I hope he gets a role on a prestige cable show which is what I was thinking over genre shows for any kind of serious awards love.  I wasn't intending to imply that would come from him getting a supporting role in the Arrowverse.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I was using the Arrowverse to demonstrate that male actors over 40 on the CW still get good roles,and are still seen as sexy and vital etc. I also mentioned that I hope he gets a role on a prestige cable show which is what I was thinking over genre shows for any kind of serious awards love.  I wasn't intending to imply that would come from him getting a supporting role in the Arrowverse.

I never watch Arrow.  I have no idea about the Arrowverse.  I'm hoping Jensen could get serious awards love from mainstream shows, like Sterling K. Brown has, not just genre, whether broadcast or cable.  I think he should expand his work universe, not stay in one little genre bubble.  Again, JMO, and feel free to disagree.  

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry, you were coming across as kind of defensive, as if I was saying Jensen was over the hill.  As I said, I think he's still in wonderful shape and agree that he can probably do the action roles for another 5 years or so.  The 10 year time frame is a suggestion that Jensen might plan for the future, *after* the show is over and he's getting a little too old for hero status and will be sidelined to supporting roles, no matter how meaty.  I'm suggesting he might want to start planning *now* by getting smaller roles in mainstream movies so that when the action roles do dry up he already has credibility/credentials in other genres.  It just seems logical to me.  I'd hate to see him wasted in sidekick roles, but maybe he'll just go into directing.  

Again, just my opinion.  No offense meant to anyone.

I wasn't offended at all during any of this discussion so no worries on my part. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

I never watch Arrow.  I have no idea about the Arrowverse.  I'm hoping Jensen could get serious awards love from mainstream shows, like Sterling K. Brown has, not just genre, whether broadcast or cable.  I think he should expand his work universe, not stay in one little genre bubble.  Again, JMO, and feel free to disagree.  

That's why I mentioned the prestige cable shows in one of my first comments. So I don't think we are in disagreement on that point at all. We just differ on  him doing an action role.   

Ah to be Jensen Ackles and have the talent to do pretty much anything he wants be it heavy drama, comedy, action, direct be it in TV or movies. 

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Agreed, I loved (to hate) Metatron and am sad that he is gone... and "Don't Call me Shurley" is one of my all time favorite episodes of the series, easily top 20, and that was partially due to the writing/dialogue there between Metatron and Chuck.

Edited to add: Sadly now that I think about it, Metatron's plot arc and interactions with Castiel - as awful as Metatron was being - was one of the few things I enjoyed about season 9. In my opinion, it was a more meaty plot arc - at least in the second half of the season - than Sam's was.

If I had my way, instead of being dead due to Amara, Metatron would be in the alternate universe.

Well we don't know where he exactly went.  He seemed to get sucked away to....?  In Riftworld they can bring back any character they want.  

[Wayward Son]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's why I mentioned the prestige cable shows in one of my first comments. So I don't think we are in disagreement on that point at all. We just differ on  him doing an action role.   

Ah to be Jensen Ackles and have the talent to do pretty much anything he wants be it heavy drama, comedy, action, direct be it in TV or movies. 

IMO it depends on the type of comedy. If it's awkward and slapstick he'll pull it off otherwise I doubt it. Then again I do consider J2 to be terrible comedy actors since their scenes come across as forced! 

 

Good thing this is the unpopular opinion thread. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO it depends on the type of comedy. If it's awkward and slapstick he'll pull it off otherwise I doubt it. Then again I do consider J2 to be terrible comedy actors since their scenes come across as forced! 

I think Jensen has started to rely too much on the slapstick stuff in s10 through s12 , too big stuff which I don't enjoy particularly.

What I was thinking about with my mention of comedy was the subtle humor  in episodes like Wishful Thinking and the exchange about killing the Teddy Bear. Or the "Crap...Bela.  Bela? Craap" exchange in s3. Or French Mistake, Frontierland, where Dean's just a nerdy goober the entire time. Everything in Changing Channels. Tall Tales. That's what I was thinking about with the comedy. Not the over the top stuff. 

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Jensen has started to rely too much on the slapstick stuff in s10 through s12 , too big stuff which I don't enjoy particularly.

What I was thinking about with my mention of comedy was the subtle humor  in episodes like Wishful Thinking and the exchange about killing the Teddy Bear. Or the "Crap...Bela.  Bela? Craap" exchange in s3. Or French Mistake, Frontierland, where Dean's just a nerdy goober the entire time. Everything in Changing Channels. Tall Tales. That's what I was thinking about with the comedy. Not the over the top stuff. 

I like the "crap Bella crap" exchange, but I'd consider French Mistake and Changing Channels to generally be examples of over the top slapstick that reveals a weakness when it comes to comedy acting. 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I like the "crap Bella crap" exchange, but I'd consider French Mistake and Changing Channels to generally be examples of over the top slapstick that reveals a weakness when it comes to comedy acting. 

The 'weakness' was in the writing if anything, though I don't consider either of those episodes weak - they were intentionally cheesy and over the top. Admittedly, I don't care for the dumb 'humor' of Dean falling over a fence or eating like a five year old wearing mittens, but that's more about the insult to the character than Jensen's delivery of it. But Jensen is every bit as good at subtle facial expressions as he is at the slapstick. I'm 100% confident he acts to the material (and often time, over and above it). So if he had a good, humorous script, I'm just as sure he'd nail it.

Edited July 6, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

I personally hope he moves away from the CW, and networks like that.  I think he's given depth and personality to Dean that was never there on the written page, so I'd love to see what he could do with some great material.  The action genre really isn't my thing, and I think those movies have been done to death, frankly.  I'd much rather have some multiple episode mini series.   

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I like the "crap Bella crap" exchange, but I'd consider French Mistake and Changing Channels to generally be examples of over the top slapstick that reveals a weakness when it comes to comedy acting. 

I think French Mistake and Changing Channels were written to be OTT since they were going meta and making fun of themselves and TV in general. I think the acting was appropriate for the tone of both those episodes. That said, humor is one of those things that's totally in the eye of the beerholder.

 

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The 'weakness' was in the writing if anything, though I don't consider either of those episodes weak - they were intentionally cheesy and over the top. Admittedly, I don't care for the dumb 'humor' of Dean falling over a fence or eating like a five year old wearing mittens, but that's more about the insult to the character than Jensen's delivery of it. But Jensen is every bit as good at subtle facial expressions as he is at the slapstick. I'm 100% confident he acts to the material (and often time, over and above it). So if he had a good, humorous script, I'm just as sure he'd nail it.

I just wish Jensen and Jared would scale back the slapstick stuff that randomly shows up in weird ways. I think that's a director just not telling them to just not. LOL

Edited July 6, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 hours ago, Katy M said:

I find it a little harder to understand why people (and apparently nobody but a few of us still even like this show) would watch a show they don't like anymore. 

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think anyone here really outright hate watches. Or if they do, I can't tell by the commentary.

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think anyone who posts here hates the show.  

This IS the unpopular opinion thread right?  Oh good.  In that case: I agree @Katy M.  I'm pretty sure I've read some 'hate watching' commentary on this site, even if it wasn't explicitly stated as such.  And while most on here might not hate the show in general all the time, there are definitely some who hate one character or another - which is just as baffling a reason to me to keep watching.  

Quote

But they both used to talk more about the show and what was coming up, and how they were looking forward to certain episodes/scenes.  They don't seem to do that much anymore. Maybe it's simply because no one asks, but I personally get a vibe that they've not been happy with the writing for at least the last 2 seasons.

I Really think that, this year, especially, with both Jared and Jensen having expanded families, they just haven't had the time/energy to talk about the show as much as they used to 10 years ago when they were single or at least child-less.  I don't think it is unhappiness with the writing this year at least.  

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The 'weakness' was in the writing if anything, though I don't consider either of those episodes weak - they were intentionally cheesy and over the top. Admittedly, I don't care for the dumb 'humor' of Dean falling over a fence or eating like a five year old wearing mittens, but that's more about the insult to the character than Jensen's delivery of it. But Jensen is every bit as good at subtle facial expressions as he is at the slapstick. I'm 100% confident he acts to the material (and often time, over and above it). So if he had a good, humorous script, I'm just as sure he'd nail it.

While I on the other hand don't think he would be able to pull it off unless the humour in question is slapstick as I view him as a weak comedy actor. I don't think he'd do well on an actual comedy show, but we can to agree to disagree on this.

 

P.S note the word comedy! I consider Jensen to be a good emotional / drama actor. Just not comedy. 

[MysteryGuest]

34 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This IS the unpopular opinion thread right?  Oh good.  In that case: I agree @Katy M.  I'm pretty sure I've read some 'hate watching' commentary on this site, even if it wasn't explicitly stated as such.  And while most on here might not hate the show in general all the time, there are definitely some who hate one character or another - which is just as baffling a reason to me to keep watching.

Well, I won't speak for anyone but myself.  While I may favor Dean over other characters, the only character I hate is Lucifer.  It's been Sam, Dean, Cas and Crowley all the way...at least up until now.  Sadly, Crowley is no more (which I'm not at all happy about).  I might complain about how a scene was written or edited, or about certain storylines, but I don't resent other characters.  

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

While I on the other hand don't think he would be able to pull it off unless the humour in question is slapstick as I view him as a weak comedy actor. I don't think he'd do well on an actual comedy show, but we can to agree to disagree on this.

I think agreeing to disagree is the answer here.  I think Jensen has pretty good comic timing.  But to each his own.

[DittyDotDot]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know if they are unenthusiastic or they are just never asked questions about the show anymore so they don't bring it up themselves other than "Did you like the last episode" etc. It seems like more show questions are asked at JIBcon these days than Creation Cons which seem to be congoers asking life advice, or what's your favorite scene. I'd love for congoers to start asking more hard core show questions. But that's just me.

I think it's not only that they don't get asked about the show, but that their own personal lives have become rather busy and full now too. I just don't think their lives revolve around the show anymore--which, I think is healthy--like they used to. And, now that they're fathers, they probably don't sit around thinking about their job as much as they used to. But, yeah, they hardly seem to get asked about the show itself these days. Which is why I find myself rarely watching the con videos anymore. I'm just not looking for career, life or self help advice.

12 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Well we don't know where he exactly went.  He seemed to get sucked away to....?  In Riftworld they can bring back any character they want.  

I still don't believe not-so-marvy Marv is well and true dead. I mean, yeah, no one ever dies on Supernatural, but that death had comeback written all over it. Although, my main reason for believing he wasn't dead was that Marvatron was basically heaven's Crowley and Crowley never dies...except when he does. Sigh.

As to the writing for Marvatron, I agree they gave him some good stuff to say at times, however, I think the reason we can look back at him and say he was well written is because, although he was starting down that road when he left, he didn't outstay his welcome. As much as I loved Mark Sheppard, I think his character was done in S10 and that would've been the best time for him to exit. Since then he's had mommy issues and Devil issues, but it was all just recycling the same old, same old.

Lesson here, show: LESS IS MORE!! It's the same reason I can still look back at Yellow Eyes and see him as one of the best villains the has ever had. Even though what he started continued for almost five seasons,, the character himself didn't stick around to snark at the boys until I grew weary of him and just wanted someone to stab him in his face.

Edited July 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it's not only that they don't get asked about the show, but that their own personal lives have become rather busy and full now too. I just don't think their lives revolve around the show anymore--which, I think is healthy--like they used to. And, now that they're fathers, they probably don't sit around thinking about their job as much as they used to. But, yeah, they hardly seem to get asked about the show itself these days. Which is why I find myself rarely watching the con videos anymore. I'm just not looking for career, life or self help advice.

They may not be filming 12 hrs a day 6 days a week but it seems to me  their lives are more enmeshed with the show than ever what with the umpteen cons they do even during hiatus, which are 100% related to the show. And most of their public time is surrounded and steeped in the show and many of their friendships are centered around the show not to mention all the t-shrit campaigns etc. 

Heh. Who knows maybe questions are intentionally directed at cons away from the show so they aren't tempted to say something critical that could get them fired. 

[Katy M]

51 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think his character was done in S10 and that would've been the best time for him to exit. Since then he's had mommy issues and Devil issues, but it was all just recycling the same old, same old.

I'm going to disagree with you slightly.  I think the best time for Crowley to have died would have been early on in Season 11. The Bad Seed or Our Little World.  I like the idea of his hubris regarding Amara getting him, better than I do his mother killing him. That would have been sad even for Crowley.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They may not be filming 12 hrs a day 6 days a week but it seems to me  their lives are more enmeshed with the show than ever what with the umpteen cons they do even during hiatus, which are 100% related to the show. And most of their public time is surrounded and steeped in the show and many of their friendships are centered around the show not to mention all the t-shrit campaigns etc. 

I don't think their lives are any more enmeshed than they ever have been, but it's just shifted some. Instead of spending the hours filming they used to, they're doing more cons and T-shirt campaigns. I'm just saying that I don't think they sit around thinking about their characters as much as they used to and/or get caught up in nitpicking the writing and such. They have kids and wives to be thinking about now instead. I just think their personal lives have become busier and fuller and their focus isn't on the show in the same way it was back before they had kids. I don't have a problem with it myself, it's a natural progression for most people and I think it's a good thing.

But, I also don't see it as a lack of enthusiasm for the show on their part. Just because they're not talking about the show in the same way doesn't suggest to me that they're tired of it or they think writing is crap. I just think they have other things going on in their lives now and not everything they do is about Supernatural. Plus, I just see them as older and more mature about these things now. They're not 20-year-olds anymore, so I wouldn't expect them to act and talk they did when they were.

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I'm going to disagree with you slightly.  I think the best time for Crowley to have died would have been early on in Season 11. The Bad Seed or Our Little World.  I like the idea of his hubris regarding Amara getting him, better than I do his mother killing him. That would have been sad even for Crowley.

But, see, that's why I think S10 would've been the best parting for him; I think Demon Dean killing him would've been the best and most fitting exit for Crowley. The one time he underestimates Dean and it gets him killed. 

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, see, that's why I think S10 would've been the best parting for him; I think Demon Dean killing him would've been the best and most fitting exit for Crowley. The one time he underestimates Dean and it gets him killed. 

But, then we wouldn't have gotten Rowena at all and I kind of like her.  I don't need 3 seasons of mommy issues, but Crowley has been around a long time and I think he deserved his background story.  So, we'll just agree that he outstayed his welcome and disagree exactly as to when that occurred:)

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Katy M said:

But, then we wouldn't have gotten Rowena at all and I kind of like her. 

I know, that's the bad part of trying to rewrite history! I don't just kinda like her, I love her now, so I guess we won't rewrite history. ;)

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't need 3 seasons of mommy issues, but Crowley has been around a long time and I think he deserved his background story.

But, see, I kinda preferred that he was a mystery in that regard and I kinda think them taking the mystery out of Crowley is what took away his edge in the end. As I always say, less is more with these things, for me.

[ILoveReading]

I disagree that its because Jared and Jensen are not talking about the show because they have families.  They had families back in s9 when Jared talked at length about Gadreel being a wet dream storyline.   And Jensen had no problem mentioning his disappointment with Demon Dean being dropped.

Yes, they get more time off now, but when they are on set, they're there to work and there  is no reason for the show not to write for them.     If they aren't going to write for them what's the point of continuing the show?

Jensen didn't live tweet once, not ever before the twins were born.  The twins gave him increased time off for one episode.  There was no reason he coudn't have been given material to work with after that.  I just don't think Dabb was interested in writing for him.

As for Cons, I do remember Jared bringing up the finale and saying he's excited about it without being asked, so if they're really excited for something, then there is no reason they need to wait for a question.  Jensen was silent on it.   But Jensen did tweet about the action scene at end of ep 21 and managed to say he was excited about ep 22.  So "they weren't asked" isn't really an excuse for me because I feel like if they feel strong enough about something, they will find a way to mention it.  We know they were not very fond of the end of s11.  So they managed to speak about it then.  There have been a few comments about they felt that season could have ended at 22. 

Even when they get questions they sometimes just brush it off.  I know someone who asked Jensen at a gold panel, what was going through Dean's mind at the end of ep 12.02 when he was looking at the pictures and he said his answer was basically just "alcohol."

I'd be interested to know their feelings on this season.  Because we know in the past Jensen wasn't thrilled with the writing for Dean in s6 with the whole domestic story and in s8 with the whole "guilty cheerleader thing,"  We know he likes action scenes and Dean didn't get many of those this season.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think their lives are any more enmeshed than they ever have been, but it's just shifted some. Instead of spending the hours filming they used to, they're doing more cons and T-shirt campaigns. I'm just saying that I don't think they sit around thinking about their characters as much as they used to and/or get caught up in nitpicking the writing and such. They have kids and wives to be thinking about now instead. I just think their personal lives have become busier and fuller and their focus isn't on the show in the same way it was back before they had kids. I don't have a problem with it myself, it's a natural progression for most people and I think it's a good thing.

But, I also don't see it as a lack of enthusiasm for the show on their part. Just because they're not talking about the show in the same way doesn't suggest to me that they're tired of it or they think writing is crap. I just think they have other things going on in their lives now and not everything they do is about Supernatural. Plus, I just see them as older and more mature about these things now. They're not 20-year-olds anymore, so I wouldn't expect them to act and talk they did when they were.

 

I don't quite follow this. There is space for them to have thoughtful answers about the show when it's appropriate in a professional setting like a con, without them thinking about the show  24/7. 

For example, Jensen gave an enthusiastic, thoughtful, detailed response at the most recent JIBcon about the entire production process from the breaking of story, writing, all the way to the finished episode, which doesn't seem to suggest he's not as engaged in his profession since having children and other business ventures. He was quite enthusiastic about the production side of things, along with the Regarding Dean episode. He and Jared both seemed keen on the Who We Are episode, (even though I think it's a crap episode myself, they liked it) . But those seem to be the only things they have focused on, so that tells me they are still engaged  and enthusiastic about their craft but don't have much to say about s12 overall, which is odd IMO

That said, I'm just going to wait and see what they say at Comic-Con.

[Pondlass1]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen has started to rely too much on the slapstick stuff in s10 through s12

It's true and it's annoying.  I know he is proud of the the fact that Dean is a BAMF hunter with a gun and afraid of nothing... but Jensen seems a bit too keen lately to dip into slapstick.  Stumbles over a 4 foot fence, knocks things over (when he used to be so stealth), food hanging out of his mouth, etc.  It's great that they have fun on set, but these slapstick moves probably should be edited out.  I also didn't like the continual 'I killed Hitler' routine.  

I think Jensen has a long and varied career ahead of him.  I think Jared will choose to work sporadically.  I also wouldn't be surprised if Jared took a small role in a sitcom.  I think both Js have  natural talent when it comes to quick wit.  Jensen's comedic timing with Misha on the JIB stage is sharp and smart.  Those guys could take their ad lib comedy routine on the road. 

Jensen is majorly talented in terms of drama, action, psychological.... anything.   If he gets an HBO gig I'll have to start paying for HBO again (it's flipping expensive in Canada!).  But I'll follow Jensen's career as long as he has one.  I've never bothered with any actor, rock star, or whatever - except Jensen.  He's special and... IMO.... a brilliant actor and fine human being.

Plus he can sing!!!

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree that its because Jared and Jensen are not talking about the show because they have families.  They had families back in s9 when Jared talked at length about Gadreel being a wet dream storyline.   And Jensen had no problem mentioning his disappointment with Demon Dean being dropped.

Every year since I started watching live I hear this same exact argument: Jensen appears to have no interest in the show; he obviously is unhappy and just doesn't want to say anything. But, then he signs on for more, so, seems to me he might be happier than everyone thinks. I don't think they are so unhappy with the quality of the show as much as they just have other things--IMO, more important things--on their minds than just Supernatural these days. 

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even when they get questions they sometimes just brush it off.  I know someone who asked Jensen at a gold panel, what was going through Dean's mind at the end of ep 12.02 when he was looking at the pictures and he said his answer was basically just "alcohol."

TBH, I think it's just them being more savvy about answering questions these days. No matter what gets said on almost any topic, fandom turns it into a war. I think Jared and Jensen have just learned not to get themselves in the middle of the war anymore.

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't quite follow this. There is space for them to have thoughtful answers about the show when it's appropriate in a professional setting like a con, without them thinking about the show  24/7. 

I have no idea what you're talking about anymore. My comments were based off someone up thread saying they think Jared and Jensen think the writing is crap and you can see it in how they don't talk about the show anymore nor do they seem enthused about the show. I'm just saying, I don't see it myself. I think they just have other things in their lives these days and it's not all Supernatural all the time. It has nothing to do with how professional they are.

Edited July 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Every year since I started watching live I hear this same exact argument: Jensen appears to have no interest in the show; he obviously is unhappy and just doesn't want to say anything. But, then he signs on for more, so, seems to me he might be happier than everyone thinks. I don't think they are so unhappy with the quality of the show as much as they just have other things--IMO, more important things--on their minds than just Supernatural these days. 

I never said he was unhappy with working on the show.  I said there were times we know he was frustrated with the writing for his character.  IMO, those two aren't  the same thing.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I have no idea what you're talking about anymore.

I'm talking about the same thing you were or at least I thought I was.

It seemed to me you were saying that because they have families now their minds and focus are not on the show all the time, as it seemed it was when they were younger, and is one of the reasons were not discussing it as much as before vs them not being happy with the writing per se.

Is that not what we were talking about? I thought this was all part and parcel of the same conversation.

Edited July 6, 2017 by catrox14

[Pondlass1]

In terms of them getting older... it does seem (to me anyway) that the fans are actually getting younger.  Check out any recent con video on YouTube.   Younger  fans asking questions less about the characters and the show and more about the Js personal lives.

Conventions are supposed to be about entertainment and energy.  And J2M provide it - along with a Jensen concert and screaming, etc.  Creation Ent. must be thrilled.  

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I never said he was unhappy with working on the show.  I said there were times we know he was frustrated with the writing for his character.  IMO, those two aren't  the same thing.

Uh, well, I never said you did say he was unhappy working on the show. I said the argument is that Jensen is unhappy with the writing, which, IMO, if that were the case, he wouldn't continue to sign up for more.

TBH, I don't think Jensen was all that unhappy with the writing in S6 as some fans think. I think his comments about that tend to be taken out of context. IMO, I think he was pushed out of his comfort zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was unhappy with it or that it was poor writing. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm talking about the same thing you were.

It seemed to me you were saying that because they have families now their minds and focus are not on the show all the time, as it seemed it was when they were younger, and is one of the reasons were not discussing it as much as before vs them not being happy with the writing per se.

Is that not what we were talking about? I thought this was all part and parcel of the same conversation.

Yep, that's what I've been saying, but it seems you thought I was saying they were unprofessional. That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm just saying they're not the same people they were even two or three years ago so I don't expect them to act the way they did two or three years ago let alone five or six.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I don't think Jensen was all that unhappy with the writing in S6 as some fans think. I think his comments about that tend to be taken out of context. IMO, I think he was pushed out of his comfort zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was unhappy with it or that it was poor writing. 

I think most actors like to be taken out of their comfort zones, actually.  It gives them more range, lets them stretch, keeps them from getting bored.

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Uh, well, I never said you did say he was unhappy working on the show. I said the argument is that Jensen is unhappy with the writing, which, IMO, if that were the case, he wouldn't continue to sign up for more.

TBH, I don't think Jensen was all that unhappy with the writing in S6 as some fans think. I think his comments about that tend to be taken out of context. IMO, I think he was pushed out of his comfort zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was unhappy with it or that it was poor writing. 

Yep, that's what I've been saying, but it seems you thought I was saying they were unprofessional. That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm just saying they're not the same people they were even two or three years ago so I don't expect them to act the way they did two or three years ago let alone five or six.

No, I wasn't saying you were saying they were unprofessional.

My point was more that I don't know when they would publicly be discussing the show itself other than interviews or cons, where their minds would be giving thought to their characters, the writing, production thus I didn't quite follow why their minds being on family more would have any particular bearing on how they answer questions about the show or talk about it unprompted. 

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think most actors like to be taken out of their comfort zones, actually.  It gives them more range, lets them stretch, keeps them from getting bored.

That would be my thought as well. That's why I don't think Jensen was really all that upset over the writing, but IMO was just expressing it wasn't what he expected and it pushed him to dig a little more and work a little harder to find it. Which, IMO, is never a bad thing. TBH, I think early S6 is some of Jensen's most layered and subtle work on the show. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

No, I wasn't saying you were saying they were unprofessional.

My point was more that I don't know when they would publicly be discussing the show itself other than interviews or cons, where their minds would be giving thought to their characters, the writing, production thus I didn't quite follow why their minds being on family more would have any particular bearing on how they answer questions about the show or talk about it unprompted. 

I wasn't talking about cons specifically.

I'll try to clarify again: someone up thread said that obviously Jared and Jensen were unhappy with the writing and direction of the show and it shows in how they aren't taking about the show in the same way they once did--on social media, at cons, whatever. I quoted you because I was agreeing with you that they don't get asked many show-specific questions at cons much lately, but I was adding to it that perhaps they also weren't talking about the show on social media and such as much right now is because they have other things to talk about too. Like their families and their other business interests. 

I also think they aren't on social media about the show as much anymore because it seems that no matter what gets posted--the most innocuous picture of two guys enjoying a sunset after a hard day's work--it gets turned into a fandom war. So, I think they just have stepped back from social media some and tend to post a lot more non-show related stuff as a result.

So, just because they're not tweeting as much as they did two or three years ago, or aren't answering questions with the same level of excitement doesn't imply to me that they have lost interest in the show or are unhappy with the writing. All it says to me is they aren't the same people they were two or three years ago.

However, I think, when at the cons or at work, they have their mind on their jobs and are professional. 

[FlickChick]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

...snip...But, yeah, they hardly seem to get asked about the show itself these days. Which is why I find myself rarely watching the con videos anymore. I'm just not looking for career, life or self help advice.

Chicago hosted the first Supernatural con and my daughter has attended every one - except this year. She is tired of exactly what is mentioned here and has come to think that it is a waste of time and (ever increasing) money. The crowd is getting younger and louder every year as the con-goers like my daughter tire of same questions, and the increasing focus on the person asking the question instead of the guys. It's really sad that these conventions have devolved into this. I also, don't watch the con videos any more.

[gonzosgirrl]

59 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Chicago hosted the first Supernatural con and my daughter has attended every one - except this year. She is tired of exactly what is mentioned here and has come to think that it is a waste of time and (ever increasing) money. The crowd is getting younger and louder every year as the con-goers like my daughter tire of same questions, and the increasing focus on the person asking the question instead of the guys. It's really sad that these conventions have devolved into this. I also, don't watch the con videos any more.

All this. And despite the fact that they are told not to make it personal, and the con staff 'screen' the questions, people continue to defy the rules and do it. And Creation continues to let them. I think if they actually stood up and tossed even one of them, it would make the others at least think twice about it. I'm sure there are newbies each time who actually don't realize the prank question has been asked ad nauseum, or that prefacing questions with way-too-personal stories is (supposedly) not allowed. I just wonder how those folks always manage to be the ones chosen for the line up. I wish they'd just go with written questions and truly screen them. The person could still be called up to ask it, but maybe it would check at least some of the repetition and awkward sharing.

[ILoveReading]

54 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

All this. And despite the fact that they are told not to make it personal, and the con staff 'screen' the questions, people continue to defy the rules and do it. And Creation continues to let them. I think if they actually stood up and tossed even one of them, it would make the others at least think twice about it. I'm sure there are newbies each time who actually don't realize the prank question has been asked ad nauseum, or that prefacing questions with way-too-personal stories is (supposedly) not allowed. I just wonder how those folks always manage to be the ones chosen for the line up. I wish they'd just go with written questions and truly screen them. The person could still be called up to ask it, but maybe it would check at least some of the repetition and awkward sharing.

As unpopular as this may be its why I wish creation would mix up the panels.  Have a solo panel occasionally.  I'm not saying instead of Jensen and Jared, but along with.  Not at every con, just the occasional one.  I find JA and JP panels almost seem scripted with the same questions being asked over and over, Or mix up the guest pairings.   Have Jensen and Jason, or Jensen and Rob or  Jared and Mark P.  It might encourage people to ask different questions. 

[Wayward Son]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

As unpopular as this may be its why I wish creation would mix up the panels.  Have a solo panel occasionally.  I'm not saying instead of Jensen and Jared, but along with.  Not at every con, just the occasional one.  I find JA and JP panels almost seem scripted with the same questions being asked over and over, Or mix up the guest pairings.   Have Jensen and Jason, or Jensen and Rob or  Jared and Mark P.  It might encourage people to ask different questions. 

I've never paid much attention to con occurrences so I'm definitely NOT claiming this is 100% true. However, I read Creation did allow J2 to have solo panels at one point and it was actually Jared an Jensen who commented that they preferred to do their panels together. So if true it's not really Creations fault, but they're just respecting the wishes of their guests. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Wayward Son
Because it seems a bit contradictory to say you don't pay much attention to him and then claim your view is 100% true ;)

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I've never paid much attention to con occurrences so I'm definitely claiming this is 100% true. However, I read Creation did allow J2 to have solo panels at one point and it was actually Jared an Jensen who commented that they preferred to do their panels together. So if true it's not really Creations fault, but they're just respecting the wishes of their guests. 

That's true, but it was also when they first started doing cons.  Jensen was uncomfortable on stage alone.  But he's much more at ease on stage now and more comfortable around fans.  I have no idea if Creation ever asked them again after that.  Jensen and Jared both agreed to do solo panels at over seas conventions so they don't seem to have a problem. 

Like I said they don't have to completely eliminate Jensen and Jared panels.  Just an occasional con of with a solo or paired with another guest.   I know they're doing a Jensen/Misha panel at Hawaii so I doubt either would be opposed to the odd con where the afternoon panel was divided into two half hour ones

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I've never paid much attention to con occurrences so I'm definitely claiming this is 100% true. However, I read Creation did allow J2 to have solo panels at one point and it was actually Jared an Jensen who commented that they preferred to do their panels together. So if true it's not really Creations fault, but they're just respecting the wishes of their guests. 

I think it's purely a Creation thing myself, given they have all done solo panels  at Asylum and JIBcon for years now.

[Bessie]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So if true it's not really Creations fault, but they're just respecting the wishes of their guests. 

I think you're right. The makeup of the panels is entirely up to J2. If they wanted to do more solo panels or panels with other guests then creation would make that happen.

With the amount of money Creation makes off the spn conventions, it's in their interest to keep J2 happy. And I think they are, otherwise they wouldn't attend so many. 

I'm not saying they would be opposed to shaking things up every now and then, but they seem comfortable with the way things are now. I don't think they want it to change or it would. 

ETA: My quote attributed  @ILoveReading and I meant to attribute @Wayward Son. Sorry guys!

Edited July 7, 2017 by Bessie
Because I still can't work this site after 4 years.

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's purely a Creation thing myself, given they have all done solo panels  at Asylum and JIBcon for years now.

The thing is, with Creation cons, they only have the Js for one day, where JIB has them for two (dunno about Asylum, but I think so?)  With the M&Gs, the autographs and the hundreds and hundreds of photo ops (solos, duos, trios, quads) there isn't much time. Maybe if they gave up the Gold panel, but then, there has to be some incentive for people to pay the crazy Gold pass prices. I'm assuming they are all going to make vacation of the Hawaii con and be there longer, thus we're getting the Jensen/Misha panel, but otherwise I don't think we'll see Creation mixing things up any time soon.

Edited July 7, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing is, with Creation cons, they only have the Js for one day, where JIB has then for two (dunno about Asylum, but I think so?)  With the M&Gs, the autographs and the hundreds and hundreds of photo ops (solos, duos, trios, quads) there isn't much time. Maybe if they gave up the Gold panel, but then, there has to be some incentive for people to pay the crazy Gold pass prices. I'm assuming they are all going to make vacation of the Hawaii con and be there longer, thus we're getting the Jensen/Misha panel, but otherwise I don't think we'll see Creation mixing things up any time soon.

They could use the afternoon panel.  It's an hour, and they could divide it into two half hour panels.  That way they don't have to extend the time Jared and Jensen work at a con.    Either solo or pair Jensen or Jared with another guest.

I don't see it changing either, but I think it would be good to mix up the status quo.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:s

They could use the afternoon panel.  It's an hour, and they could divide it into two half hour panels.  That way they don't have to extend the time Jared and Jensen work at a con.    Either solo or pair Jensen or Jared with another guest.

I don't see it changing either, but I think it would be good to mix up the status quo.

No, I don't think you're ever going to see a con with no J2 panel at all. We who follow it so closely might want that, but for the regular folks, especially those who only buy Sunday tickets (by far the busiest, fullest day of the con) the Winchester brothers are the main attraction.

[Pondlass1]

The attendees are definitely younger (despite our guys apparently being over the hill) and the questions more family personal or someone wanting therapy ?

I think we all must have picked up our ears when one lone conventioneer once asked Jensen about hesitating before walking down the steps to hell. It was obvious Jensen was chuffed. Someone actually appreciated the show! Jensen gives full and thoughtful answers anytime anyone asks about the show (which is so rare these days).  He politely defers to Jared when someone begins "AKF saved me" and we hear all about a fan's  depression.

I've never been to a convention.  I have a friend here who has attended several. I wish she would ask a question because I know it would be a great question, and Jensen would give a great answer.

And - apologies to Jared fans - but he just rambles too much about nothing.  Jensen is way more articulate.  I'd prefer a Jensen solo panel any day. 

[BlueSapphire]

Jared's every bit as thoughtful and articulate as Jensen in his answers, and I see his answers being every bit as good. 

Solo panels are never going to happen at Creation Cons.

Edited July 7, 2017 by BlueSapphire