Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[ILoveReading]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The only reason I can see for killing Crowley, Cas, Rowena, Eileen, Death, Billie, Mick and putting Lucifer and Mary in the AU, is to take everything away from Dean and Sam. I can only see this working if the intention is to take them back to just the boys and back on the road to end the show at s13. 

The problem is that they attempted this in s7 and that is generally considered one of the weaker seasons overall.   Then Jared and Jensen were still working full time.   With, them only working part time hours, how do they fill the void.  The writers seem to struggle to fill 42 minutes as it is.  Regarding Dean had to have the montage added because it ended up a minute too short.  Unless they're willing to seperate the brothers more on hunts there is going to be a lot more monologing monsters as nothing more than filler and time wasters. 

 

46 minutes ago, Res said:

My UO: I for one do NOT want them to go back to "just the brothers". I don't mind them being back on the road but I also like them having a home to come back to in order to recoup and have some downtime. But I'm tired of the dynamic of "just Sam and Dean". I feel they have gone beyond that and I cannot care about the supposed "brother bond" when more is swept under the rug or completely ignored than is dealt with. Yes, I'm one of the ones who did not "interpret" "I lied" as an apology to the Purge speech. I saw it as just a response to Sam saying he was okay with Dean dying.

I agree with this.  One of my biggest problems with the Carver years is that it felt way to claustrophobic with basically the only focus on Sam and Dean trying to save one another.  

[MysteryGuest]

I don't want to see Sam and Dean saving each other, but I would absolutely be down for more of them saving other people.  In the beginning of the show, it was about them saving regular people from all the things that go bump in the night.  They didn't always win, people were killed, but they usually got their monster in the end.  So maybe rather than some season-long, world-ending story arc, they could do some mini-arcs instead.  Have them hunting the same monster or group of monsters over the course of a few weeks.  Introduce us to some other characters who stick around until that arc is complete.  Involve other hunters that the boys call in for backup during these bigger battles.  There are plenty of ways for them to incorporate more characters into the story.  

They're just stuck in this rut of heaven and hell, and I personally am completely over it.  God left and took Amara with him, so things should have been pretty good.  Lucifer should never have been brought back, and Sam and Dean could have done what they do best.  It would have opened up the show to all sorts of interesting stories, folklores, etc.  And I would think the smaller story lines would be easier for the inexperienced writers to focus on, rather than trying to incorporate episodes from multiple writers into one story.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The problem is that they attempted this in s7 and that is generally considered one of the weaker seasons overall.   Then Jared and Jensen were still working full time.   With, them only working part time hours, how do they fill the void.  The writers seem to struggle to fill 42 minutes as it is.  Regarding Dean had to have the montage added because it ended up a minute too short.  Unless they're willing to seperate the brothers more on hunts there is going to be a lot more monologing monsters as nothing more than filler and time wasters. 

I don't think they're trying to do what they did in S7, but I think they're taking away all their current support to shake up the status quo by forcing the boys to build up a new support system. S7 was all about stripping everything away from them.  I think S13 will be about building; I'm guessing they're going to organize the hunter community so we have more recurring characters in the end. 

I think you'd be surprised at how many folks think of S7 as being a very strong season. Just depends on where you go and who you talk to. 

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think you'd be surprised at how many folks think of S7 as being a very strong season. Just depends on where you go and who you talk to. 

Season 7 is absolutely one of my favorites.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think you'd be surprised at how many folks think of S7 as being a very strong season. Just depends on where you go and who you talk to. 

With the exception of How to Win Friends (how dare you kill Bobby!!!!) and the Slice Girls, I really liked Season 7 up through Party On Garth.  I kind of liked Girl with tattoo and Reading Is Fundamental, but the other 3 episodes, no, not so much.  Survival of the Fittest and Alpha and Omega are the only 2 season finales I don't really like.  OK, I have that love/hate thing going on wit Brother's Keeper.  But, most of the other season finales are so amazing, that it makes my dislike of those two really stand out in my mind, I guess.

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think they're trying to do what they did in S7, but I think they're taking away all their current support to shake up the status quo by forcing the boys to build up a new support system. S7 was all about stripping everything away from them.  I think S13 will be about building; I'm guessing they're going to organize the hunter community so we have more recurring characters in the end. 

I think you'd be surprised at how many folks think of S7 as being a very strong season. Just depends on where you go and who you talk to. 

I felt s7 was kind of a cop-out mostly because they took it away but then gave it back.  They burned Bobby's house down but, nope all those books Sam managed to digitize and scan.  Then they killed Bobby but, nope, he's still there solving things for them in ghost form.

I don't want Alt!Cas.  His friendship with Dean is one of my favorite things about the show.  I've watched it grow.  I'd rather see Cas stay dead, then bring back a another version who doesn't like Dean, or worse, have Dean not recognize its not real Cas because the writers want to go with a "gotcha" moment. 

I don't want to watch Sam and Dean build a new support system.  Mostly because I like the one they have, and because the writers aren't strong enough at developing characters or presenting things organically, ex- Sam's decision to join the BMoLs after they royally screw up, or other hunter blindly following Sam when he has a history of poor decision making. 

Unless, Dean is equally invovled in being a general in the hunting community, I'd rather the show not go there, but I'm probably getting a little to close to bitch/jerk so I'll leave it at that.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

With the exception of How to Win Friends (how dare you kill Bobby!!!!) and the Slice Girls, I really liked Season 7 up through Party On Garth.

See, despite them killing Bobby, I still really like How To Win Friends and Influence Monsters. I also like The Slice Girls, more or less. I don't like discussing those two episodes because it always devolves into the same discussion, but I enjoy watching them both. Party on Garth, I could've lived without, but it too has its moments. I actually can only think of one, maybe two S7 episodes I could see myself skipping on re-watch--if I allowed myself to skip episodes, that is.

I've just come to the conclusion there is no consensus on anything in this fandom. Well, there might be consensus on a dislike of the Horrible Duo...but even that, I'm not sure of. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They burned Bobby's house down but, nope all those books Sam managed to digitize and scan.

Not that I disagree with you that they kept taking things away only to give them back in another form in S7, but I don't recall Sam digitizing all those books. I thought Bobby had copies stashed all over the country. That's how they explained his absence in the first part of the season, he was driving around collecting his library again. And, that's how they got Jody involved in the hunt when Dean was sent back in time later, she went and gathered a bunch of Bobby's books from one of his storage units.

But, yeah, I think they wanted to strip everything away from Sam and Dean in S7, but then gave them something else to replace it instead of having the boys step back up and do it old fashioned style. But, I still enjoy quite a bit of S7, regardless. 

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't want Alt!Cas.

I don't either. But, I'm also not convinced that's what they're going to do either. I expect we'll get real Cass back, but he'll be de-powered or something. Or, he's stuck in the alternate universe working with Mary or something. I'm still hopeful they didn't really and truly kill our Cass.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I've just come to the conclusion there is no consensus on anything in this fandom. Well, there might be consensus on a dislike of the Horrible Duo...but even that, I'm not sure of. 

I think every fan faction thought "Bloodlines" was stupid. At least I have never seen anyone who wanted that as a show.

Quote

Unless, Dean is equally invovled in being a general in the hunting community, I'd rather the show not go there

Yeah me neither. I`d rather they leave it alone after seeing the penultimate episode. 

Quote

Survival of the Fittest and Alpha and Omega are the only 2 season finales I don't really like.  OK, I have that love/hate thing going on wit Brother's Keeper.  But, most of the other season finales are so amazing, that it makes my dislike of those two really stand out in my mind, I guess.

My UO then:  beyond "Devil`s Trap" the show never had a really great Season Finale. Some were fine but only DT is an amazing episode to me.

The show had better luck with Season Openers IMO. Leaving out the Pilot - it is an effective one but Pilots are notoriously hard to judge on their own - they have at least two great ones: In my time of dying and Lazarus Rising. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think every fan faction thought "Bloodlines" was stupid. At least I have never seen anyone who wanted that as a show.

Yeah, that could be true. Although, I'm not sure everyone thought it was stupid as much as just thought it was a stupid episode of Supernatural. If they hadn't billed as Supernatural, but let it stand on its own, they might've been able to get quite a few people to watch that show...I think, anyway.

Edited June 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Res said:

My UO: I for one do NOT want them to go back to "just the brothers". I don't mind them being back on the road but I also like them having a home to come back to in order to recoup and have some downtime. But I'm tired of the dynamic of "just Sam and Dean". I feel they have gone beyond that and I cannot care about the supposed "brother bond" when more is swept under the rug or completely ignored than is dealt with. Yes, I'm one of the ones who did not "interpret" "I lied" as an apology to the Purge speech. I saw it as just a response to Sam saying he was okay with Dean dying.

I agree. I don't want it to ever be JUST the boys again. They've come too far. They can't go back IMO. I would be fine with some occasional boys on the road in cool motels again but I really don't want them  alone again.

I'm do not want the show to lose Castiel permanently at all. He's too ingrained in the fabric of Dean's life. And if they have killed him there better be a lot of fallout from his death. It better not be swept under the rug.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 If they hadn't billed as Supernatural, but let it stand on its own, they might've been able to get quite a few people to watch that show...I think, anyway.

Maybe though that defeats the point of a spin-off which is the hope of bringing eyeballs over from the mother show. Bloodlines just didn`t fit with the vibe SPN has got going. And if you do a spin-off that is so drastically different from the mothership, better to create an original show in the first place.

Ironically, they did go with the aptly-named "The Originals", in itself a spin-off but with quite a few similarities. Only the premise worked more organically there than in the Supernatural verse. 

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Res said:

BL, I do NOT want it to be just the brothers. I've actually enjoyed Dean and Crowley's interaction the most in recent seasons since they keep messing up Cas.

It's not an unpopular opinion with me.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, despite them killing Bobby, I still really like How To Win Friends and Influence Monsters. I also like The Slice Girls, more or less. I don't like discussing those two episodes because it always devolves into the same discussion, but I enjoy watching them both. Party on Garth, I could've lived without, but it too has its moments. I actually can only think of one, maybe two S7 episodes I could see myself skipping on re-watch--if I allowed myself to skip episodes, that is.

I was enjoying the episode until the end, but Bobby's always been my favorite character.  I can live with them killing him off because they kill everyone eventually (except for apparently Cas, because I'm the only one who doesn't want him around), but I'm just never going to feel any affection for the episode that did him in. I love Death's Door, which is where he technically died, but, I don't know.  And, since I realize the only reason I dont' like the epi is due to Bobby dying, I can recognize objectively that it's not a bad episode.

I don't like The Slice Girls because I think it was so unnecessary to give Dean a daughter just to kill her.  Doesn't the guy suffer enough on a regular basis?  At least they let Sam kill her and didn't make him do it.  That would have been too much, IMO.  But, as much as I dislike the epi in general, I did like the scenes with the crazy professor.  "Where did you get that?"  "Crazy old drunk."  "They have the best stuff."  Paraphrased even though I used quotes, but I'm sure that's close.

There are only a couple of episodes throughout the whole series that there wasn't anyting that I enjoyed about them:  Bloodlines (to be fair I didn't finish watching it, so maybe there was something), Live Free or Twihard, I'm No Angel.  I think that's it.  Every other episode has had at least something in it for me, and for a show with so many episodes, that's nothing to sneeze at.

[auntvi]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought Bobby had copies stashed all over the country. That's how they explained his absence in the first part of the season, he was driving around collecting his library again. And, that's how they got Jody involved in the hunt when Dean was sent back in time later, she went and gathered a bunch of Bobby's books from one of his storage units.

That's how I remember it. For example, in season 6 Cas stole a book with clues to Purgatory from Bobby and he was able to replace it with a copy he had made and hid somewhere.

@Katy M You're not the only one who doesn't need Cas around.

[CluelessDrifter]

20 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Thanks for the reply!  I didn't mean to imply "you" as in you, @CluelessDrifter, but a more general comment on the board and people feeling Dean is being portrayed as weak. 

I'd be cool with a hellhound kill for Dean, but if I had my druthers, I'd like to see the return of Alistair. 

Not to me. I love vocal Dean! But he does have a history of not sharing his feelings on his own suffering. 

You're welcome! 

I'd love to see Alistair again!  I forgot all about the AU until @catrox14 mentioned it, but at the same time, I feel like the show has gone into overdrive lately on bringing back people and relics from the show's past only for them to be deconstructed or destroyed in some way.  Lucifer, Mary, the Colt, and Joshua to name some off the top of my head.  So, I'd hate for them to bring Alistair back only to destroy him in same way.

[Bessie]

3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

So, I'd hate for them to bring Alistair back only to destroy him in same way.

Yeah. It's that whole familiarity breeds contempt problem. But if they could bring him back and maintain his level of menace, I'd be thrilled to see him and have him stick around for a while. Maybe if they did a short two or three episode arc, they wouldn't run into the problems they have with the characterization of Lucifer. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Yeah. It's that whole familiarity breeds contempt problem. But if they could bring him back and maintain his level of menace, I'd be thrilled to see him and have him stick around for a while. Maybe if they did a short two or three episode arc, they wouldn't run into the problems they have with the characterization of Lucifer. 

I legit do not understand why they made Lucifer into a whiny brat. Is it some way to mock the Devil? Given the LOTUS and the Hitler episode I've been wondering if much of s12 wasn't a socio-political commentary on the state of the United States. I'm not talking politics in general but via what the show is doing. Does Dabb envision himself as some kind of Mel Brooks in the Producers where he's taking the piss out of Hitler by mocking him?

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I legit do not understand why they made Lucifer into a whiny brat. Is it some way to mock the Devil? Given the LOTUS and the Hitler episode I've been wondering if much of s12 wasn't a socio-political commentary on the state of the United States. I'm not talking politics in general but via what the show is doing. Does Dabb envision himself as some kind of Mel Brooks in the Producers where he's taking the piss out of Hitler by mocking him?

As far as the show is concerned, Lucifer has always been a whiny brat.  In The End, he gave Dean that whole speech of how he was kicked out of Heaven just because he wouldn't worship humans, obviously putting some spin on it, because we've yet to meet an angel that worships humans on the show, not to mention God wanting angels to worship humans is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  In Sympathy for the Devil, his speech to Nick was all like, He can't play with us like that, whine, whine.  In Hammer of the Gods, he was pretty whiney with Gabriel.  Death even called him a "bratty child with a temper tantrum."

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

As far as the show is concerned, Lucifer has always been a whiny brat.  In The End, he gave Dean that whole speech of how he was kicked out of Heaven just because he wouldn't worship humans, obviously putting some spin on it, because we've yet to meet an angel that worships humans on the show, not to mention God wanting angels to worship humans is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  In Sympathy for the Devil, his speech to Nick was all like, He can't play with us like that, whine, whine.  In Hammer of the Gods, he was pretty whiney with Gabriel.  Death even called him a "bratty child with a temper tantrum."

I never thought he was whiny until s11 and s12. IMO in The End, he was an arrogant, narcissistic, jealous egotist who actually thought he was better than the hairless apes. I thought he had fits of temper, but I never thought he was actually whiny until this season. God wanted angels to love humans more than him not  worship them that I can recall. I think that's where Lucifer got confused. He had no respect nor use for humans.  He couldn't understand why Ghuck wanted Lucifer to love humans more than him. Just because I really love the writing in this scene, I dug it up. Come back, Ben Edlund :(. 

I think part of why it comes across as somewhat whiny is one line reading by Jared when I thought the rest of it was manipulation and rather intimidating.  But miles vary on that as always.

I love The End so damn much. My favorite episode of the show forever and ever.
 

Quote

EXT. JACKSON COUNTY SANITARIUM GARDEN – DAY

DEAN stares at LUCIFER.

LUCIFER
Aren't you a surprise.

Thunder and lightning; LUCIFER is now behind DEAN.

LUCIFER
You've come a long way to see this, haven't you?

DEAN
Well, go ahead. Kill me.

LUCIFER
Kill you?

LUCIFER looks at the corpse of 2014!DEAN.

LUCIFER
Don't you think that would be a little...redundant?

LUCIFER sighs.

LUCIFER
I'm sorry. It must be painful, speaking to me in this—shape. But it had to be your brother. It had to be.

LUCIFER reaches for DEAN's shoulder. DEAN moves back.

LUCIFER
You don't have to be afraid of me, Dean. What do you think I'm going to do?

DEAN
I don't know. Maybe deep-fry the planet?

LUCIFER examines a rose, but turns away.

LUCIFER
Why? Why would I want to destroy this stunning thing? Beautiful in a trillion different ways. The last perfect handiwork of God.

DEAN doesn't answer.

LUCIFER
You ever hear the story of how I fell from grace?

DEAN
Oh, good God, you're not gonna tell me a bedtime story, are you? My stomach's almost out of bile.

LUCIFER
You know why God cast me down? Because I loved him. More than anything. And then God created...

LUCIFER smirks.

LUCIFER
You. The little...hairless apes. And then he asked all of us to bow down before you—to love you, more than him. And I said, "Father, I can't." I said, "These human beings are flawed, murderous." And for that, God had Michael cast me into hell. Now, tell me, does the punishment fit the crime? Especially, when I was right? Look at what six billion of you have done to this thing, and how many of you blame me for it.

DEAN
You're not fooling me, you know that? With this sympathy-for-the-devil crap. I know what you are.

LUCIFER
What am I?

DEAN
You're the same thing, only bigger. The same brand of cockroach I've been squashing my whole life. An ugly, evil, belly-to-the-ground, supernatural piece of crap. The only difference between them and you is the size of your ego.

LUCIFER smiles.

LUCIFER
I like you, Dean. I get what the other angels see in you. Goodbye. We'll meet again soon.

LUCIFER turns to walk away.

DEAN
You better kill me now!

LUCIFER turns back.

LUCIFER
Pardon?

DEAN
You better kill me now. Or I swear, I will find a way to kill you. And I won't stop.

LUCIFER
I know you won't. I know you won't say yes to Michael, either. And I know you won't kill Sam. Whatever you do, you will always end up here. Whatever choices you make, whatever details you alter, we will always end up—here. I win. So, I win.

DEAN
You're wrong.

LUCIFER
See you in five years, Dean.

Thunder and lightning; LUCIFER is gone. DEAN turns around and sees ZACHARIAH behind him, reaching for his forehead with two fingers.

Death called him a bratty child with a temper tantrum in Two Minutes to Midnight. Whether Death was right or not is hard to say because I didn't get that from Lucifer in s5 IMO.

[MysteryGuest]

Lucifer was fine in small doses.  But now that he's the main focus of the show, he's more than over-stayed his welcome.  After possessing Castiel, and seemingly coming to an understanding with Chuck, they should have brought his story to an end.  But instead, he's sticking around for a 3rd straight season, and now we have Jack to contend with as well.  Every time I see his face next season it's going to piss me off all over again that they chose him over Crowley.  

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Lucifer was fine in small doses.  But now that he's the main focus of the show, he's more than over-stayed his welcome.  After possessing Castiel, and seemingly coming to an understanding with Chuck, they should have brought his story to an end.  But instead, he's sticking around for a 3rd straight season, and now we have Jack to contend with as well.  Every time I see his face next season it's going to piss me off all over again that they chose him over Crowley.  

SAME!

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Lucifer was fine in small doses.  But now that he's the main focus of the show, he's more than over-stayed his welcome.  After possessing Castiel, and seemingly coming to an understanding with Chuck, they should have brought his story to an end.  But instead, he's sticking around for a 3rd straight season, and now we have Jack to contend with as well.  Every time I see his face next season it's going to piss me off all over again that they chose him over Crowley.  

Amen. They had the perfect opportunity to end the story with his expulsion from Cas. If they didn't want the imagery of Amara 'killing' her brother's son, they could've said she banished him back to the cage and hid it away forever. I was already more than over the character, but now he'll be forever tied to Crowley's demise. Blech.

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

God wanted angels to love humans more than him not  worship them that I can recall. I think that's where Lucifer got confused. He had no respect nor use for humans.

Well, either way it was stupid. Why would God want angels to love humans more than Him.  And none of the other angels seem to have much respect or use for humans, either, so why weren't 90% of them kicked out of Heaven. 

And, sorry, but I just have to disagree.  He's always been whiny.  You could argue that he used to balance his whininess better with power and he had more of a plan so he was more focused.  But, that doesn't mean he wasn't whiny.

[Pondlass1]

I'm done with Lucifer, angels, demons and especially heaven and hell.  Let's move on....

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'm done with Lucifer, angels, demons and especially heaven and hell.  Let's move on....

Yes, let's.  And it would be so easy, if they would just let it.  They've killed Cas and Crowley.  And Lucifer is locked in another dimension.  Oh, I forgot about Jack.  He can decide the best thing for him is to go join Daddy in the other realm. He goes in and send Mary back out, obviating any need for sam and Dean to go messing in that arena, and voila. We're done.

[Wayward Son]

I think Castiel could easily adapt to storylines without the involvement of heaven and hell! The most obvious being a permanent fall to human with his main personal arc exploring his adjustment to hunting as a human being. 

 

However, if I had to choose between a heaven and hell based storyline with Castiel, or the show moving on without him to non heaven and hell stuff! I'll pick the Castiel involved storyline every single time!

[Wayward Son]

An Unpopular Opinion prompted by discussion between users in the Appointment in Samarra thread.

IMO soulless Sam was a perfect characterisation of our Sam without basic morality and in some ways regular Sam can be just as dangerous to others around him. In season six soulless Sam was portrayed as an utterly ruthless individual who would do whatever it took to achieve a specific goal. He didn't allow Dean to be turned by the vampire in Live Free or Twi Hard  as an attack against Dean specifically nor was he willing to kill Bobby just for the fun of it. He was a goal orientated individual who believed in the old adage "the end justifies the means". 

We have also seen a similar mentality from regular souled Sam. Due to the emotional ties he holds with certain individuals such as Dean or Bobby he wouldn't sacrifice them the way his soulless counterpart would. However, Sam has proven to be just as dangerous to the average person on the street when it comes to achieving specific goals such as saving Dean from peril or stopping the apocalypse. For instance back in Mystery Spot he was willing to drain a person dry if it resurrected Dean. This same level of ruthlessness went from hypothetical to a reality, during Lucifer Rising, when he drained a demon possessed nurse dry, in spite of holding the power to save her life by exorcising the demon, in order to gain the power needed to kill Lilith. Later in season ten he would knowingly cause the death of numerous people by breaking the mark of Cain, as he didn't care about the death toll if it meant Dean was saved.

IMO soulless Sam and regular Sam are quite similar. The only difference is that when he was soulless Sam's ruthless extended from being based on completing a specific mission (save Dean, stop the apocalypse) to also being ruthless when it came to his own self-perservation. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Pondlass1]

The brothers' sick co-dependency is the most dangerous thing about them. Also the most fascinating and why we (I) watch.  It's way more interesting than any TV marriage or flirty detective or medical series.  It's the greatest love story of all.

That Sam and Dean have major flaws, that they are broken and reckless and headstrong is what drew me in and makes me want to watch.  Or used to.  They've neutralized our brothers quite a bit over the past few seasons unfortunately and the excitement has been dialed back.  It's nice that they're getting along now, the contrived brotherly angst was becoming annoying.... but that they make mistakes, that they (especially Dean) can be daredevils rushing in half cocked without a plan is what's so enjoyable.  

I'm a Dean girl.  It's Dean I'd choose to carry me safely through the valley of the shadow of death.  Sam can get sidetracked. He's also more likely to get into a snit and stomp off. 

Soulless Sam and Demon Dean are an interesting pair.  Both were missing souls (which, in my mind, means no conscience for actions). While SS became super hunter with razor focus, DD went on a pub crawl.  He maybe enjoyed the kill, but he enjoyed the brawl more.  He didn't kill anyone (that we saw) other than sleazy Lester. 

SS and DD says quite a bit about the brothers' characters - I think, anyway.

* I might've gone off topic for this thread?

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 Both were missing souls (which, in my mind, means no conscience for actions). While SS became super hunter with razor focus, DD went on a pub crawl.  He maybe enjoyed the kill, but he enjoyed the brawl more.  He didn't kill anyone (that we saw) other than sleazy Lester.

This is interesting to me. I see it quite differently.

Demons have souls and emotions. Their souls are twisted and messed up but they have them which IMO which means they also have a conscience but their conscience has different rules of engagement once their humanity is burned away from their souls. They have awareness of right and wrong but it's based on "demon conscience"/demon soul  rather than "human conscience"/human soul.  Some demons are even religious in their own way. Some worshiped Lucifer vs God or Jesus. Alastair and the diner demon spoke of lying as being against their religion and referred to it as a sin.

Demons feel pain, they suffer, they "love" and "hate" in their own way. Meg and Azazel "loved" each other as daughter and father. I think she had empathy for Castiel and Sam and even though she mocked them both, she still opted to side with the Winchesters against Crowley. IMO demons personalities were still the same  as their human personalities, traits, what have you, but their behaviors changed as their soul was changed. They took on meatsuits to enjoy the physical pleasures of humanity. Of course, a weird retcon of s11 they also, picked up personality traits from meatsuits, which WHAT? That still doesn't make a bit of sense to me.  Anyway, Demon! Dean was no  more  religious as a demon than he was as a human. He didn't follow the rules of Hell. He made his own way much to Crowley's chagrin. Like when he chose to kill Lester instead of the wife because he thought Lester was an idiot, who called Dean a freak and tried to control Dean and Dean wasn't having it. 

Anyway, to me demons do have a conscience but it serves their own purposes whether they are independent from Hell or acting as an agent of Hell.  Like demons will follow rules like they did with Crowley and Azazel. That's why Crowley had order in Hell and why Azazel had a demon army. Those demons IMO were probably more followers in their human days so even beyond the threat of pain and suffering if they went against the head demons. Those that didn't want to be stuck in Hell crawled out and possessed humans to stay topside. Some used the meatsuits for fun and profit and IIRC some just wanted to live on Earth so they stayed top side and out of trouble to avoid going back to Hell. Demon!Dean seemed disinclined to possess anyone else, or maybe he couldn't, like maybe he and Cain were trapped in their own meatsuits because of the Mark.

I think Soulless Sam had no conscience, no empathy, no feelings, no emotions. He wanted to hunt, eat and have sex, the latter two seemed to be more biologically driven than anything else. That's why he didn't think twice about killing the hostage and the kidnapper.

I don't know who was more dangerous though. Demon!Dean was still driven by the bloodlust so he HAD to kill. Soulless Sam was dangerous because he didn't care if he killed if it got the job done.

They would be a scary team that's for sure. Can you imagine Demon!Dean as Soulless Sam's Jiminy Cricket? LOLOL

ETA: demon!Dean killed a bunch of demons to keep his bloodlust in check and in self defense like in the Gas N Sip.  Lester was an outright murder.

Edited June 22, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

Reading @catrox14's post reminded me of some questions I've had for a while. Was Cain actually a demon? I think not, as we never saw him with black or (or red or white or yellow) eyes. And yet he was ostensibly the most twisted/tortured soul of all, tormented literally from the beginning of (human) time. He created (or I suppose, perfected is the more accurate term) the Knights of Hell, but he never passed the Mark on to them, so they were vulnerable to death. The Mark made Dean immortal, as it did Cain, but yet still vulnerable to a Devil's Trap (as was Cain) and holy water. So what was Dean, really, a hybrid? More than a Knight -- the new Cain? Why the black eyes then, or why did we never see them on Cain? I guess this is what makes it relevant to the UO/bitterness thread: the writers totally wasted Demon/Knight Dean by relegating him to three episodes.

[Bessie]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Can you imagine Demon!Dean as Soulless Sam's Jiminy Cricket? LOLOL

Now, I really want this!

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Reading @catrox14's post reminded me of some questions I've had for a while. Was Cain actually a demon? I think not, as we never saw him with black or (or red or white or yellow) eyes. And yet he was ostensibly the most twisted/tortured soul of all, tormented literally from the beginning of (human) time. He created (or I suppose, perfected is the more accurate term) the Knights of Hell, but he never passed the Mark on to them, so they were vulnerable to death. The Mark made Dean immortal, as it did Cain, but yet still vulnerable to a Devil's Trap (as was Cain) and holy water. So what was Dean, really, a hybrid? More than a Knight -- the new Cain? Why the black eyes then, or why did we never see them on Cain? I guess this is what makes it relevant to the UO/bitterness thread: the writers totally wasted Demon/Knight Dean by relegating him to three episodes.

Cain was a demon AFAIK, but he never flashed black eye. I've always taken it that the red light seen when he killed the demons in his house was his 'color' as a demon. 

My question as always been whether Cain was a demon before he took the Mark or the Mark made him a demon.

2 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Now, I really want this!

 

Right??! I mean seriously show, how can you not give us at least one crazy one off episode where Soulless Sam and Demon!Dean are together. Like even a weird combined nightmarescape from some bad African dreamroot or something. DO IT SHOW!! DO IT!

[auntvi]

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam can get sidetracked. He's also more likely to get into a snit and stomp off. 

When did Sam get into a snit and stomp off?

[Katy M]

51 minutes ago, auntvi said:

When did Sam get into a snit and stomp off?

The end of Captives.  But, I can't think of any time that he did it mid-saving someone.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The end of Captives.  But, I can't think of any time that he did it mid-saving someone.

The only time I can really say Sam stomped off during a job was Citizen Fang, I wouldn't say it was because he was in a snit though. However, I think Sam does have the tendency to need his personal space at times. I don't think that's necessarily wrong though.

[auntvi]

Thanks for the reminder. I'd characterize that simply as "Sam walks away." I didn't see any snit or stomping.

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

The only time I can really say Sam stomped off during a job was Citizen Fang, I wouldn't say it was because he was in a snit though. However, I think Sam does have the tendency to need his personal space at times. I don't think that's necessarily wrong though.

I wouldn't really say he stomped off in that case.  I would say he ran off to save Amelia.  He wasn't actively saving anybody at that point anyway.  They were doing the Scooby-doo look for clues thing:)

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I wouldn't really say he stomped off in that case.  I would say he ran off to save Amelia.  He wasn't actively saving anybody at that point anyway.  They were doing the Scooby-doo look for clues thing:)

Scarecrow? A long while back, yeah, but he did indeed stomp off in a snit (as did Dean).

[auntvi]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Scarecrow? A long while back, yeah, but he did indeed stomp off in a snit (as did Dean).

A mutual stomp, you could say.  ;)

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Scarecrow? A long while back, yeah, but he did indeed stomp off in a snit (as did Dean).

I will never count Scarecrow as a stomp off.  Sam decided he wanted to do one thing. Dean decided he wanted to do something else.  They both decided to do what they wanted to do.  If only they were a little less angry about it, it would have been perfectly normal. 

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 It's Dean I'd choose to carry me safely through the valley of the shadow of death.  Sam can get sidetracked. He's also more likely to get into a snit and stomp off. 

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I will never count Scarecrow as a stomp off.  Sam decided he wanted to do one thing. Dean decided he wanted to do something else.  They both decided to do what they wanted to do.  If only they were a little less angry about it, it would have been perfectly normal. 

Yeah, I guess one could argue that Sam put his want to find John above the case in "Scarecrow" in that he did leave to find John instead of working the case, but he was arguably leaving the case in very capable hands rather than just leaving someone in peril hanging. And he did come back and help in the saving in the end.

Dean also has his lapses - like when he was taping up the room against Amara's smoke and abandoned that to go to Sam. Not that I blame him really, since the situation was pretty much hopeless anyway and it might be the last time he saw Sam alive at that point, but still, under the right circumstances, Dean can get sidetracked as well.

As for who I would want helping me if I was in need of saving... I guess it would depend on what I needed to be saved from. Each brother has their strengths. And whereas "guns blazing" generally does work for Dean, I think I might have a heart attack before I got saved via that method. Heh. Also any plan that might involve me running for any length of time? Forget it. I'm likely to be monster chow. So if there's a methodical way out of it, I'd probably favor Sam. Also Sam if picking locks was involved, since usually - there are a couple understandable exceptions - Sam seems to be just a little bit better with that. Exorcism - Sam again. And also discerning photographic stuff - seeing similarities or differences, recognizing people, etc. in photos is more a Sam thing. If shooting was necessary, I'd more than likely choose Dean. Anything with figuring out or remembering symbols - Dean there too. Mechanical know-how needed - definitely Dean. Long odds situations: Dean again since Dean tends to be luckier. As for herbs, plants, types of monsters or animals, or lore - that's a toss up. Could go either way.

Though if I had to spend any length of time in a car while being saved? I might throw all of the above out the window, because - unpopular opinion ahead! - I really dislike Led Zeppelin and in general only barely tolerate Metallica and would very likely not be able to hide that fact, so Dean would probably end up throwing me out on the side of the road for the monster to eat if we had to spend any time alone in the car together. Now if Dean wanted to sing Air Supply or Bon Jovi, no problem. Heh. But the moment the Led Zeppelin came out, I'd be toast. ; )

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Also any plan that might involve me running for any length of time?

I'd choose Dean to carry me out.  Just cause. 

[catrox14]

I'd pick Dean because well, it's Dean and if we survive, awesome, if not, at least I'll die looking at Dean Fucking Winchester. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I will never count Scarecrow as a stomp off.  Sam decided he wanted to do one thing. Dean decided he wanted to do something else.  They both decided to do what they wanted to do.  If only they were a little less angry about it, it would have been perfectly normal. 

Yeah but they weren't, and he did stomp off, which was the question. It's one time he absolutely redeemed himself though, and so did Dean in telling him he was proud (essentially) and letting him go. I love this episode for that.  And for introducing me to the word fugly :)

[DeeDee79]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'd pick Dean because well, it's Dean and if we survive, awesome, if not, at least I'll die looking at Dean Fucking Winchester. LOL

I like your thinking! 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'd pick Dean because well, it's Dean and if we survive, awesome, if not, at least I'll die looking at Dean Fucking Winchester. LOL

Or any of those words in any order. :p 

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Or any of those words in any order. :p 

LOL. I had a similar thought but didn't say it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Also any plan that might involve me running for any length of time?

15 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'd choose Dean to carry me out.  Just cause. 

Nope.  Sam.  Those long legs?  He could outrun anything.  ;)  And the way he picked up Charlie at the end of 7.20:

Le sigh.  Definitely Sam.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Nope.  Sam.  Those long legs?  He could outrun anything.  ;)  And the way he picked up Charlie at the end of 7.20:

Oh, sure. Sam's probably stronger and could run faster.  But, Dean.   If I'm going to die, I'm going to die in Dean's arms.