Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Katy M]

46 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wow!  I'm so honored!  *fanning myself voraciously while nervously bowing repeatedly* "I'd like to thank the Academy..." What? Hey! *rest of the forum ushers me aside* 'That'll do, Ruler.  That'll do.'  "Oh, okay." grumble, grumble, grumble.  ;)

Oh, no, You had a LA La Land moment.

[Myrelle]

14 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I lied and I'm going to say one last thing. Just because I want to clarify my position. 

As I said earlier I've seen some people express the view (not necessarily in this conversation) that Jensen might feel his acting skills are being insulted by fans putting something into them he didn't intend. 

The point I was trying to make is that IMO (and the opinion of Edlund and Scriggia) some of Jensen's scenes to date have had an ambiguous note. I wasn't saying that my interpretation was the absolute correct one just that the ambiguity is there. 

Therefore, if (and I say if because who knows maybe  this doesn't bother him in the slightest) tdea of people potentially seeing a bi-sexual Dean bothers Jensen, then, for his own sake, he may wish to consider his performances and how he can get rid of that ambiguity. 

I'm going to say one last thing too. I've never seen the bolded part of this post in any of my social media travels; that said, I don't do twitter as I think it is the worst source of information pertaining to anything related to this show-and especially where it concerns the actors on the show. I further think that it doesn't bother him in the slightest that some people think or imagine that they see a bi-sexual Dean. Neither do I think or feel that he thinks or feels that his acting skills are being insulted by the thought that some might see ambiguity in his portrayal of Dean's sexuality. I think he might not care for it when fans try to tell him that Dean simply must be bi because of all the obvious signs that point to it being true beyond a shadow of a doubt to them-because he has stated numerous times that he plays Dean as heterosexual and not bi because he feels that the character is heterosexual and not bi.

And who says that writers and directors on this show can't be fans of the show or the idea of a possibly bisexual Dean? The DVD comments on that episode were comments from people who work on the show, but who also happen to be fans of it too, IMO. And if they saw JA as playing that scene in a purposefully ambiguous way as it pertains to Dean's sexuality, maybe that's because just like any other Destiel or BisexualDean fan, they too wanted to see his performance that way. I'm bolding what to me were the key words in that opening sentence of their thoughts on that scene.

Quote

He (Jensen) played it so right down the middle, you know just more awkward about it like 'wow somebody likes me'"

Because to me, THAT was predominantly how Jensen played Dean in that scene. Anything else, he left up to the imagination. So he was flustered by a nice guy following him around and then hitting on him in such a blatant fashion when he'd been nothing but suspicious and distrustful of that same guy's motives the entire time, and up to that point in the episode. A completely and totally understandable reaction from a heterosexual male too, IMO. 

To sum it up, he says that he plays/sees Dean as heterosexual and not bi, so I'm just going to take his word on this. If some choose not to, that is their prerogative; but to tell him that his portrayal of a heterosexual male is questionable only tells me that they've never met a heterosexual male like Dean-which is highly possible being that Dean is a very unique individual and one of a kind, for sure. ;-) 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Myrelle

[sarthaz]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Because to me, THAT was predominantly how Jensen played Dean in that scene. Anything else, he left up to the imagination. So he was flustered by a nice guy following him around and then hitting on him in such a blatant fashion when he'd been nothing but suspicious and distrustful of that same guy's motives the entire time, and up to that point in the episode. A completely and totally understandable reaction from a heterosexual male too, IMO. 

Strange that the writers made those comments.  I've seen that episode at least a dozen times, and not once have I gotten anything from it other than a macho heterosexual male a little weirded out by a gay dude liking him, which is the whole point of Aaron doing that in the first place.  If you want to put a heterosexual male totally off balance, have a gay guy hit on him.  It was genius -- I love Aaron for that.  Jensen plays it for laughs, but it's not sexually ambiguous.  It's exactly how a macho hetero male would behave, and that's why it's funny.

[Wayward Son]

41 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Strange that the writers made those comments.  I've seen that episode at least a dozen times, and not once have I gotten anything from it other than a macho heterosexual male a little weirded out by a gay dude liking him, which is the whole point of Aaron doing that in the first place.  If you want to put a heterosexual male totally off balance, have a gay guy hit on him.  It was genius -- I love Aaron for that.  Jensen plays it for laughs, but it's not sexually ambiguous.  It's exactly how a macho hetero male would behave, and that's why it's funny.

Obviously not everyone, including the people who wrote and directed the episode, agrees with the bit in bold. I think at this point all of us are going to have to agree to disagree. Some people see ambiguity in some of Dean's scenes throughout the years and some people don't and that's OK as long as everyone on both sides are capable of respecting the opinion of others and don't dismiss the viewpoint of the other side. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Strange that the writers made those comments.  I've seen that episode at least a dozen times, and not once have I gotten anything from it other than a macho heterosexual male a little weirded out by a gay dude liking him, which is the whole point of Aaron doing that in the first place.  If you want to put a heterosexual male totally off balance, have a gay guy hit on him.  It was genius -- I love Aaron for that.  Jensen plays it for laughs, but it's not sexually ambiguous.  It's exactly how a macho hetero male would behave, and that's why it's funny.

This is Ben Edlund.  He has a genius mind (seriously, who would have thought of The Tick as a Superhero?). And he had some of the more overtly sexual elements in his writing for SPN.  Some of it was frat-boy class (IMO ... I didn't like the constant rape jokes) and some of it was very sensitive and nuanced.  Ben Edlund has range. But Ben marches to the beat of his own drum creatively speaking.  So, Ben could easily interpret it in any number of ways and it would be perfectly in keeping with how he thinks.  Like I said, I personally think he's got a touch of genius in him -- which pushes boundaries in many ways but it's not always comfortable.  Side note apropos of nothing: He also is a very slim human.  I got a chance to meet him.  He and Bobo Berens COMBINED don't make 300lbs.  I'm certain of it. So, big brains, very slight bodies.

ETA: What @Wayward Son said: it was actually interpreted differently by many.  It is what it is.  Jensen played it as he saw it, others interpreted it differently.  The show's position on this was laid out, however, fairly unambiguously -- "you have your interpretation and I have mine." (Dean Winchester to Marie, in Fan Fiction).  

But... straying into debate... so this thread is about accepting everyone's opinions without debate.  Black and White to some is that damn Blue/Black or White/Gold dress to others..... (ask me if you don't remember the three day social phenomenon of "the dress").

Edited February 27, 2017 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

18 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Therefore, if (and I say if because who knows maybe  this doesn't bother him in the slightest) the idea of people potentially seeing a bi-sexual Dean bothers Jensen, then, for his own sake, he may wish to consider his performances and how he can get rid of that ambiguity.

I think Jensen is in a damned if he does/damned if he doesn't situation here. No matter what he does or says on the topic seems to set off some fan group. Jensen's always been fairly consistent that he doesn't play Dean as anything other than straight, but if people are free to interpret it any way they like. I don't think he's personally affronted by the question, just personally affronted when some people take offense to his honest answer. And, after the twitter bullying a couple years ago, I think he's just wary of the topic in general anymore.

56 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Strange that the writers made those comments.  I've seen that episode at least a dozen times, and not once have I gotten anything from it other than a macho heterosexual male a little weirded out by a gay dude liking him, which is the whole point of Aaron doing that in the first place.  If you want to put a heterosexual male totally off balance, have a gay guy hit on him.  It was genius -- I love Aaron for that.  Jensen plays it for laughs, but it's not sexually ambiguous.  It's exactly how a macho hetero male would behave, and that's why it's funny.

To be fair, it wasn't ALL the writers, it was Edlund (writer) and Scriggia (director) commenting on Jensen's choice in the DVD commentary. It's a short exchange that lasts only a few seconds. Also, I don't think the transcript really gives you the "feel" of the conversation. Both Edlund and Scriggia are fairly silly and sarcastic on the commentary--as they generally are--so, my read of the conversation was more that they were kinda joking around as a result of the scene being so hotly debated already. Of course, it's hard to tell on these things, but that was my feeling when I listened anyway.

Edited February 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Strange that the writers made those comments.  I've seen that episode at least a dozen times, and not once have I gotten anything from it other than a macho heterosexual male a little weirded out by a gay dude liking him, which is the whole point of Aaron doing that in the first place.  If you want to put a heterosexual male totally off balance, have a gay guy hit on him.  It was genius -- I love Aaron for that.  Jensen plays it for laughs, but it's not sexually ambiguous.  It's exactly how a macho hetero male would behave, and that's why it's funny.

The thing for me is that doesn't really jive with the Dean that has never been put off balance by non-hetero dudes in the past. Dean just brushes those things off with "I don't swing that way". Dean even ended up in a sex club facing a huge dude with leather chaps and a whip asking Dean about his 'safe word' . He looked more freaked out about the huge dude  than him asking for his 'safe word'. 

So I don't get why Dean would be so 'BIG' about his reaction to Aaron here.  Dean never even said "Sorry, gingerbread, I don't swing that way".  He just said, 'oh sorry I'm on a case, it's a federal thing".  Never declared to Aaron he didn't swing that way and continued on talking about it being a hs gay thing that didn't turn out to be his gay thing after all. All played for laughs but IMO it revealed a little something about Dean that maybe took Dean by surprise.  But that's just my interpretation and I can see why others don't see it that way.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To be fair, it wasn't ALL the writers, it was Edlund (writer) and Scriggia (director) commenting on Jensen's choice in the DVD commentary. It's a short exchange that lasts only a few seconds. Also, I don't think the transcript really gives you the "feel" of the conversation. Both Edlund and Scriggia are fairly silly and sarcastic on the commentary--as they generally are--so, my read of the conversation was more that they were kinda joking around as a result of the scene being so hotly debated already. Of course, it's hard to tell on these things, but that was my feeling when I listened anyway.

Even on this I have a different read. I've listened to that commentary a couple of times and I think it's more like they weren't not serious. Meaning I think they were serious about seeing things a bit more ambiguously. But I don't think that conversation was particularly sarcastic. To me it was more, like 'Hmmm maybe".   

29 minutes ago, SueB said:

But... straying into debate... so this thread is about accepting everyone's opinions without debate.  Black and White to some is that damn Blue/Black or White/Gold dress to others..... (ask me if you don't remember the three day social phenomenon of "the dress").

Well, that's it. You've crossed a line bringing up that STUPID DRESS.  HOW DARE YOU!

[Wayward Son]

In a bid to move the subject on.

I was just transferring some of my old stuff over to my new Livejournal and one of these items was the review I wrote when Man's Best Friends with Benefits aired. My unpopular opinion is that I don't regard it as sexist / racist as most of the fandom seem to. My reasons being

Quote

On the other hand, I absolutely adored the side characters introduced in this episode especially Portia. Although I do acknowledge that a lot of viewers were offended by her as she brought to mind issues such as black slavery. However, to me they portrayed her as the very opposite of a repressed and subservient female throughout the episode. Firstly, there was the way that she interacted with Dean and Sam. When she spoke to Dean she was sarcastic, witty, and more than capable of giving as good as she got. She was the very opposite of demure. Secondly, her entire relationship with James was presented as one between two equals. Portia herself considered that to be the case, as evident through her explanation about the bond that forms between familiar and human. Then there was the way they interacted with each other. She was not afraid to go behind James back and call the brothers in, she was not afraid to argue back and justify her actions when James found out (incidentally I found her going off in a huff while in dog form absolutely hilarious), during their sexual encounter she was the one to initiate sex and if anything she was the more dominant lover, and she went against his ‘order’ to stay away and played her part in rescuing James from Spencer.

On the other hand, I thought that Philippe, the white male, was the character that showed us what can happen to a familiar when the bond is handled in its most twisted form. He was the one shown forced into actions he did not want to take namely acting as an eyewitness against James, and he was the one cruelly killed by Spencer who followed this murder by the cold statement “He was always spineless.” With all that taken into consideration I really did not get a racist or sexist vibe from this episode.

I just want to make it clear that I understand this is a sensitive topic for some and as a white male I can't understand the difficulties people have gone to. This is just my take on the episode and no offence is intended. 

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

But... straying into debate... so this thread is about accepting everyone's opinions without debate.  Black and White to some is that damn Blue/Black or White/Gold dress to others..... (ask me if you don't remember the three day social phenomenon of "the dress").

I'll help you jump her cartrox!

Honestly Sue, did you have to do that??!!

[catrox14]

Just now, Mick Lady said:

I'll help you jump her cartrox!

Honestly Sue, did you have to do that??!!

I wouldn't go so far as jumping her but maybe a minor noogie is in order.

[rue721]

UO: Loved dressgate.

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

UO: Loved dressgate.

From a popcorn viewing perspective or?

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

But... straying into debate... so this thread is about accepting everyone's opinions without debate.  Black and White to some is that damn Blue/Black or White/Gold dress to others..... (ask me if you don't remember the three day social phenomenon of "the dress").

I'm quoting this again because I want to add that this is a perfect analogy! Brings me back to my college days and the arguments we had about  James Joyce. Everyone read him differently!

Dressgate! Hee!

Edited February 27, 2017 by Mick Lady

[rue721]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

From a popcorn viewing perspective or?

I love problems with no right answer ;)

Edited February 27, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

I love problems with no right answer

English major here ;)

But didn't they give the right answer? It was black and blue. The manufacturer said so. LOL...

I'm not helping...

[Myrelle]

35 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Some people see ambiguity in some of Dean's scenes throughout the years and some people don't and that's OK as long as everyone on both sides are capable of respecting the opinion of others and don't dismiss the viewpoint of the other side. 

I also think that it's important to show due respect for the opinion of the guy who's portrayed the character for 12 years and who is also a fan of the character. A writer's and a director's fannish opinion does not and should not trump the actor's fannish opinion. Not IMO; and not if we're truly speaking of respect for and of everyone's opinion.

That was really my last comment on this. Really. Done. Over and out. ;-)

[Wayward Son]

21 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I also think that it's important to show due respect for the opinion of the guy who's portrayed the character for 12 years and who is also a fan of the character. A writer's and a director's fannish opinion does not and should not trump the actor's fannish opinion. Not IMO; and not if we're truly speaking of respect for and of everyone's opinion.

That was really my last comment on this. Really. Done. Over and out. ;-)

Not in regards to this particular issue, because I do feel the general writing team and Jensen are all in agreement that Dean is hetero, but if there ever was a point where the writers adamantly felt strongly about something and an actor adamantly felt the opposite the writers would get the final say. It is an actors job to act out the storyline / direction the writers instruct them to do. 

Of course there are times (and we've been told of them) where the actor may voice disagreement and the writers take that on board, but ultimately the final say on storyline direction lies with the writing team / producers. So I don't think its as simple as "actor right, writer stupid". Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But didn't they give the right answer? It was black and blue. The manufacturer said so. LOL...

I'm not helping...

Hm guess it depends, because people were debating about the appearance of the photographic image, which the brain wasn't "wrong" to interpret either way. The interpretation of the colors just depended on what your brain happened to be using as a visual frame of reference right then. You could make yourself see the dress's colors either way depending on what you looked at right before looking at the picture. If I remember right, if you looked at a bright light (like the sunny sky) right before looking at the photo, you saw blue and black? And if you looked at a dimmer light (like lamp light) right before, you saw white and gold? It was fun. I taught myself to flip back and forth. Because my priorities are ridiculous, so that is of course how I decided to spend a chunk of my day that day. ;) NO REGRETS

Anyway, I thought it was fun that everyone was trying SO HARD to figure out such goofy ~phenomena~

I THOUGHT THIS THREAD WAS NOT FOR DEBATES @catrox14

Hold up guys gotta go tattle brb

[Casseiopeia]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Not in regards to this particular issue, because I do feel the general writing team and Jensen are all in agreement that Dean is hetero, but you do realise that if there ever was a point where the writers adamantly felt strongly about something and an actor adamantly felt the opposite the writers would get the final say. It is an actors job to act out the storyline / direction the writers instruct them to do. 

Of course there are times (and we've been told of them) where the actor may voice disagreement and the writers take that on board, but ultimately the final say on storyline direction lies with the writing team / producers. 

 He might have it in his contract that Dean is to be protrayed as a hetero sexual man only.  I can't imagine any writer or showrunner that would take that kind of risk with their greatest asset.  That would seem to be professional suicide.

[Myrelle]

Quote

Of course there are times (and we've been told of them) where the actor may voice disagreement and the writers take that on board, but ultimately the final say on storyline direction lies with the writing team / producers. 

I was speaking of respect for others' opinions within the fandom not of the BTS running of the show. That part of the commentary seemed more like fannish discussion to me than anything else. And I'm not so sure where most of the power presently lies BTS of this show, but I'm not convinced that every show is the same in that regard. Some actors do and can wield quite a bit of power; sometimes even more than producers. But unless things boil over I'm going to assume that Supernatural is still a well-oiled machine and that respect of the role that each person plays and their importance in keeping the machine running is never taken for granted and that, more than anything, has been the key to this show's unprecedented success over the years. IMO, anyway.

ETA:

Quote

So I don't think its as simple as "actor right, writer stupid". Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one

Neither do I. Nor do I think that it's as simple as "writer, right; actor doesn't count, and should be schooled on how he portrays a het male". Because sorry, but we'd have to agree to disagree on that one.  But I'm just going to go with this statement

Quote

Some people see ambiguity in some of Dean's scenes throughout the years and some people don't and that's OK as long as everyone on both sides are capable of respecting the opinion of others and don't dismiss the viewpoint of the other side. 

and assume that you'd include respecting Jensen's viewpoint as well as Edlund's and/or Sriggchia's, and not dismissing it outright AKA as something that needs fixing by "ridding" something from his portrayal of a het male. You might not like his portrayal, but to say that someone should talk to him about  changing it, suggests to me that you're pretty  much dismissing his viewpoint and it's a viewpoint that just as many in this fandom share(at least) as disagree with, and as such, deserving of just as much respect as Edlund's or Sgricchia's or yours, for that matter. And just to clarify-no more or no less respect-but simply the same. IMO, of course.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I THOUGHT THIS THREAD WAS NOT FOR DEBATES @catrox14

Hold up guys gotta go tattle brb

Hey man, I'm just bringing the facts to the table on that stupid dress!

But yes it was a great discussion about perception etc. 

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Hey man, I'm just bringing the facts to the table on that stupid dress!

But yes it was a great discussion about perception etc. 

Nope too late to be conciliatory -- there is now bad blood EVERYWHERE.

Blue/black! Facts! sputter sputter

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

In a bid to move the subject on.

I was just transferring some of my old stuff over to my new Livejournal and one of these items was the review I wrote when Man's Best Friends with Benefits aired. My unpopular opinion is that I don't regard it as sexist / racist as most of the fandom seem to. My reasons being

I just want to make it clear that I understand this is a sensitive topic for some and as a white male I can't understand the difficulties people have gone to. This is just my take on the episode and no offence is intended. 

I'm sure that they didn't mean for it to come across as racist or sexist but considering the long running tasteless Busty Asian Beauties gag I was disappointed in the writing but not surprised.

[MysteryGuest]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The thing for me is that doesn't really jive with the Dean that has never been put off balance by non-hetero dudes in the past. Dean just brushes those things off with "I don't swing that way". Dean even ended up in a sex club facing a huge dude with leather chaps and a whip asking Dean about his 'safe word' . He looked more freaked out about the huge dude  than him asking for his 'safe word'. 

So I don't get why Dean would be so 'BIG' about his reaction to Aaron here.  Dean never even said "Sorry, gingerbread, I don't swing that way".  He just said, 'oh sorry I'm on a case, it's a federal thing".  Never declared to Aaron he didn't swing that way and continued on talking about it being a hs gay thing that didn't turn out to be his gay thing after all. All played for laughs but IMO it revealed a little something about Dean that maybe took Dean by surprise.  But that's just my interpretation and I can see why others don't see it that way.

I think Dean's reaction depends on how the subject is broached.  He wasn't expecting that comment from Aaron, so it caught him off guard.  And Aaron was such a nice guy about it that I certainly wouldn't have expected Dean to react with something like "I don't swing that way".  It wasn't really called for.  He did say that, but in a much more polite way.  I think his reaction was perfect.  He was nonplussed, and then he basically told Aaron no without the need to be insulting or overly macho about it.  I liked it.

[SueB]

*hangs head in shame for introducing the dressgate conversation, slinks away*

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

*hangs head in shame for introducing the dressgate conversation, slinks away*

*puts arm around Sue and gives her a big ol' hug*

Ah Sue, we all love ya, you know that! catrox is the real trouble maker! We all know that!

*ducks and runs*

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

*puts arm around Sue and gives her a big ol' hug*

Ah Sue, we all love ya, you know that! catrox is the real trouble maker! We all know that!

*ducks and runs*

Can't let y'all get bored

[Mick Lady]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Can't let y'all get bored

Why does that sound so much like Crowley?

If I never post again...!

[catrox14]

Just now, Mick Lady said:

Why does that sound so much like Crowley?

If I never post again...!

Too far, Mick Lady...too far :(

[Mick Lady]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Too far, Mick Lady...too far :(

Oh SHIT! I surrender, I surrender!

I'm gonna ask Dean for help on this one! At least he knows how to handle you ;)

Piss off catrox at your own peril!

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Oh SHIT! I surrender, I surrender!

I'm gonna ask Dean for help on this one! At least he knows how to handle you ;)

Piss off catrox at your own peril!

Are you saying Dean might spank me? That is not necessarily a deterrent....

[Wayward Son]

42 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What I got from the interview was that Misha said something like "wow, that scene is so gay" and it wasn`t meant to be nice, it was meant to be "unmanly". Because guys sometimes talk like this. And Jensen wanted to PC it up a bit but apparently ìt`s still offensive to enough people.

Personally, I don`t think they meant that much by it. I`m a woman and all my colleagues are women but we will throw around stuff like "don`t be such a girl". I know that in essence it`s an insult to women so we kinda insult ourselves but, honestly, we don`t take it that seriously, its just a rib for us.

This scene, the actors probably thought "come on, the guys wouldn`t`say that stuff." Which, fair enough.     

If Misha said it in that context then I am very, very disappointed in him too. As far as I am concerned that comment is not acceptable regardless of who said it. 

However, without Misha there to clarify we don't know what he meant when he used the word "gay". For instance I know there are a lot of people who actually consider that to be a romantic sounding gesture. Therefore, Misha could have quite literally meant it sounded "gay", in the sense it sounded like a romantic gesture between two men, which would not have fit the platonic bond they were going for hence the rewrite. Equally, he too could have meant it as a  disparaging remark against the 'manliness' of those who are gay. We just don't know. 

All we know for definite is that Jensen felt it appropriate to replace the word 'gay' with 'unmanly' as though they meant the same thing. The fact that he thought such a substitution was 'politically correct' makes it even worse. 

I'm not accusing him of being homophobic. I would never make such a blank statement about someone as a result of one comment made in an interview. What I will say though is the remark he made was in very poor poor taste and it had the potential to be extremely hurtful to a group of people. I wish his fans would acknowledge that, rather than acting as apologists who refuse to contemplate the idea that the man is anything less than a God who can't make mistakes. 

I think I've said my peace so I'm going to leave it here. Others are free to take his words in whatever manner they choose. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

What I will say though is the remark he made was in very poor poor taste and it had the potential to be extremely hurtful to a group of people. I wish his fans would acknowledge that, rather than acting as apologists who refuse to contemplate the idea that the man is anything less than a God who can't make mistakes. 

I certainly don`t think he is completely flawless and never makes mistakes. There are some things he does I`m not happy with. Just this particular bit isn`t offensive to me personally. I don`t begrudge anyone feeling differently but it doesn`t change my feelings on the matter either. 

[SueB]

Wayward Son... I totally get the issue of substituting "unmanly" for "gay" being completely wrong ... there were about a half dozen other things brought up that I'll share some of my perspective on in the "All Seasons Thread".

[catrox14]

From the spoilers thread

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Sorry but I think this is naive. Of COURSE it is was a 'shipping thing'. Jensen knows that there is a passionate group of fans who desperately want to see Dean and Cas in an onscreen romantic relationship, and that they they will grasp at the teeniest of straws in their efforts to prove that their ship exists. He doesn't/didn't want to tease them or give them any more ammunition to believe something he isn't putting across in his performance and doesn't believe is real. At the time this story broke the clear implication was that this was the reason for Jensen's discomfort. He thought the scene was written too romantically, like a lovers tiff/reunion. He was not happy about that because he doesn't believe in that interpretation. 

When this furore broke it was absolutely about shipping with the Destiel fans furious the line was cut and angry with Jensen for how he described it (as 'girly'). While non shippers were all in favour of the line being cut. 

There is a very large Destiel-shaped elephant in this room. All I was doing was pointing it out. 

Not all discussion about the Dean/Cas relationship are veiled shipper talk. At least that's not been my experience on this community. 

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but that's making a lot of assumptions about why folks are commenting.  But I sure wasn't discussing it in a Destiel manner.

Even IF Dean and Cas were a couple, IMO that's a line that I don't think Dean would say regardless. Dean would probably say something snarky like "Well, it's about damn time you showed up" or "Well, here's your coat back. Don't ever make me carry it around like that again, you dumbass" and then hug Cas for a long time and if the network felt like being bold he'd kiss Cas.

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

However, without Misha there to clarify we don't know what he meant when he used the word "gay". For instance I know there are a lot of people who actually consider that to be a romantic sounding gesture. Therefore, Misha could have quite literally meant it sounded "gay", in the sense it sounded like a romantic gesture between two men, which would not have fit the platonic bond they were going for hence the rewrite. Equally, he too could have meant it as a  disparaging remark against the 'manliness' of those who are gay. We just don't know. 

All we know for definite is that Jensen felt it appropriate to replace the word 'gay' with 'unmanly' as though they meant the same thing. The fact that he thought such a substitution was 'politically correct' makes it even worse. 

I'm not accusing him of being homophobic. I would never make such a blank statement about someone as a result of one comment made in an interview. What I will say though is the remark he made was in very poor poor taste and it had the potential to be extremely hurtful to a group of people. I wish his fans would acknowledge that, rather than acting as apologists who refuse to contemplate the idea that the man is anything less than a God who can't make mistakes. 

A close friend of mine is a gay male and he uses the term " that's so gay" on occasion when regarding things/instances in a negative fashion. While it may be seen as inappropriate to others he's very open and proud of his sexuality. However as a hetero female I realize I'm not one to make a definitive statement on this. May I ask what was the interview/venue that is being discussed in this convo?

[rue721]

UO:  I liked the Gamble years. S6 had a bit too much going on, but I liked the show re-orienting itself toward family and the focus on the characters' development (rather than ~epic~ heaven/hell/apocalypse stuff). Soullness Sam in particular was pretty cool, although at the time that storyline seemed pretty endless. I think that both S6 and S7 hold up well now, especially when they're binge-watched (because I think the weakest point of those seasons was how the multiple-episode arcs were paced).

[SueB]

It's not an UO for me, I like the Gamble years too. TNTRewatch really helps to keep old episodes fresh.  And I find myself really liking many of the episodes.  And I LOVE Frank 'Fudge-pop' Devereaux.  Miss that paranoid delusional techno-survivalist.  

[rue721]

Just now, SueB said:

And I LOVE Frank 'Fudge-pop' Devereaux.  Miss that paranoid delusional techno-survivalist.

LOL OK, another UO:  I didn't like Frank. He creeped me out.

It also continues to be weird to me that Dean gave him $15,000. For what? How? I mean, I can fanwank it but that detail just seemed so bizarre to me.

[Diane]

OK, I am also a season 7 lover, it has some great episodes and I loved the leviathan story line.  Yes, even all the dick jokes. The only thing I didn't like was no baby, but even that set up some great scenes.

[Wayward Son]

13 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

A close friend of mine is a gay male and he uses the term " that's so gay" on occasion when regarding things/instances in a negative fashion. While it may be seen as inappropriate to others he's very open and proud of his sexuality. However as a hetero female I realize I'm not one to make a definitive statement on this. May I ask what was the interview/venue that is being discussed in this convo?

Hi DeeDee! This statement was made by Jensen in regards to a scene between Dean and Castiel during the episode The Born Again Identity. I have quoted the full interview here 

I want to reiterate the fact that I do not think Jensen was being malicious here. I honestly think that in this particular case the old saying "think before you speak" applied. He simply made the remark without considering the implications behind it and how (potentially) insulting that was for some. 

However, malicious or not, the fact remains that he made a statement that suggests that being gay equates to being "unmanly". Unfortunately, we live in a society where there are many gay and bisexual men, particularly those from conservative areas, who have spent their entire lives fighting against such prejudices. There are many who have grown up being told they weren't "real men" simply because of who they were sexually attracted to. Naturally, men who have spent their lives like that, or those who know such men, were going to find Jensen's words very hurtful. 

Of course not every gay man is going to react to his remark with this same hurt,in the same way every woman won't react with the same strength to remarks deemed sexist, or every black person won't react to what could be deemed racist insults. I assume your friend has been fortunate enough to not encounter such belittling thoughts in his life and that's wonderful. He is of course free to make whatever remark he wants in a personal context around friends who know he doesn't mean anything by it. However, a celebrity interview reaches a far wider audience, and without that personal connection between friends, it's easy for many to take the words in the worst way possible and feel hurt by them. 

So ultimately I do think that everyone should acknowledge that some people have been hurt by what was said. I do not think it is fair for other fans to belittle the struggles of others, and I vehemently oppose any attempts to try and shame hurt fans by turning this into a shipping thing. It is utterly wrong to turn what was an important issue for many into "on its nothing.. It's just those wicked Destiel shippers up to no good again". 

Im not saying you do any of the things I mentioned in the last paragraph just general sharing of thoughts :)

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, rue721 said:

LOL OK, another UO:  I didn't like Frank. He creeped me out.

It also continues to be weird to me that Dean gave him $15,000. For what? How? I mean, I can fanwank it but that detail just seemed so bizarre to me.

Someone else was asking what happened to the gold from Like a Virgin, and I was wondering where Dean got 15K, so I decided to put the two together.

[rue721]

Just now, Katy M said:

Someone else was asking what happened to the gold from Like a Virgin, and I was wondering where Dean got 15K, so I decided to put the two together.

But like, THAT is what Dean spent it on?

And Frank charges $15K for stuff?! So was Frank fabulously wealthy by the time he died? Why would he be charging so damn much. Price himself out of the market. It's not like most hunters have a cache of dragon gold to pay him with.

It rang really false to me. Not that it's a big deal, just a weird detail.

[Katy M]

Just now, rue721 said:

It's not like most hunters have a cache of dragon gold to pay him with.

I don't think he dealt with hunters all that much.  He somehow met Bobby who saved his life, but he told Dean that he didn't believe all that stuff.  Obviously that changed with the leviathans.  So, if he was usually dealing with mob types, former spies, and (I'm having a brain cramp and can't remember what they're called) the paranoid people who are going to live in compounds off the grid, they may have money.  And, Frank would probably work for a few people for lots of money, then get volume business.

[Katy M]

This is the unpopular opinion that is totally going to get me stoned to death.  I don't care about the Impala.  Like at all.  It's just a car.  I did love the episode Baby, though. 

And, I don't really like the Bunker.  I miss them being out on the road every week.  It's got some cool stuff, and it was fun watching Dean play with the swords and Sam geek out over the books, and it probably is nice for them to not have to sleep in the car and in different hotels every night since they are getting older, but, I guess I'm just mean that way.

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

the paranoid people who are going to live in compounds off the grid, they may have money

True enough. Those people are usually rich. Or at least bad with money!

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And, Frank would probably work for a few people for lots of money, then get volume business.

I mean, wouldn't everyone? I would love to tell my boss, "OK, I'll do 1 hr of work for $5M, please." ;)

It just seems weird to me that Frank would even know that he COULD charge that much and still get any business. I mean, he didn't know about the dragon gold, I don't think? Ordinarily, Dean wouldn't just have $15K on-hand.

And I also think it's a waste. $15K wtf. You can do a lot with that kind of money! Just seemed "off" to me that that's how Dean and Sam would spend it -- on a consultant, essentially. YMMV.

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

And, I don't really like the Bunker.  I miss them being out on the road every week.  It's got some cool stuff, and it was fun watching Dean play with the swords and Sam geek out over the books, and it probably is nice for them to not have to sleep in the car and in different hotels every night since they are getting older, but, I guess I'm just mean that way.

Totally agree.

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

This is the unpopular opinion that is totally going to get me stoned to death.  I don't care about the Impala.  Like at all.  It's just a car.  I did love the episode Baby, though.

Ever since I saw the Bone Thugs n Harmony video for Crossroads, I've been imagining that song/video as an inspiration for SPN. Well, not really. But sorta really! It starts out with a choir crying for Mary, there's a crossroads deal, someone going black eyes, etc.

Anyway, black classic Impalas feature heavily in that video, too!

[Diane]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And, I don't really like the Bunker.  I miss them being out on the road every week.  It's got some cool stuff, and it was fun watching Dean play with the swords and Sam geek out over the books, and it probably is nice for them to not have to sleep in the car and in different hotels every night since they are getting older, but, I guess I'm just mean that way.

I really miss the crazy motel rooms.  When my son and I did a re watch together, we would always watch for the room dividers, they were great.  Loved the feel of them being out on the road too.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

And I also think it's a waste. $15K wtf. You can do a lot with that kind of money! Just seemed "off" to me that that's how Dean and Sam would spend it -- on a consultant, essentially. YMMV.

Yeah, it was weird.  But, on the other hand, Bobby had just died.  Grief makes you do weird things.  Dean was all about figuring out Bobby's death bed message and punishing his killer, and if 15K was what it was going to cost to figure out what the numbers meant, then so be it.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It just seems weird to me that Frank would even know that he COULD charge that much and still get any business. I mean, he didn't know about the dragon gold, I don't think? Ordinarily, Dean wouldn't just have $15K on-hand.

Frank is in the business of keeping people off the grid. If they want to be off the grid badly enough and in the most complete manner, they will pay what he's asking.  Seems pretty reasonable to me. :)