S06.E10: START

[SailorGirl]

9 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Who were the specific names of people that Stan confronted them about? Oleg and who else?

I'm behind on the postings, so apologies if someone already answered this, but Mr. and Mrs. Teacup -- the hockey player and the other person besides Philip that Stan actually considered a friend (not to the depth of his friendship with Philip, but a friend nonetheless). 

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

Who said anything about the CIA?  Not me.  What does bringing up what they get away with, which I never said was okay because I never mentioned the CIA, have to do with these characters?  The CIA has nothing to do with these characters and why I wish they, specifically, had suffered more for their actions.  Yeah, I wanted them "held accountable."  So what?  Yeah, the CIA also does bad things and gets away with it.  It's wrong when they do too. 

FWIW, I don't think "fighting for one's country" is an accectable excuse for anyone to do the types of things the CIA AND Phillip and Elizabeth have done.  Better?  I included the CIA even though they have nothing to do with anything I was talking about, but okay . . . 

I brought up the CIA because that is the logical comparison of what OUR country does, when comparing what Philip and Elizabeth did for the USSR.  It wasn't an attack on you.

I always try to judge Philip and Elizabeth by the same standards I would judge our own spies.

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

Here's the thing for me:  they basically turned Elizabeth into a vicious feral monster this season, killing in truly nasty ways for minor reasons.  The military office hitting on Paige, the poor schlub with a girlfriend at the warehouse, the Teacups, more.  These were awful, bloody killings. THE FBI AGENTS IN CHICAGO. How could Stan let that go in particular?

if they knew they were going to let her off the hook, WHY make this the most vicious killing season for her?

All I can figure is that Stan was not computing the body count in his mind as he stood there.  His best friend is denying killing people and Paige doesn't think they do either. She's still in the dark, and E is pouring it on about how they are supporting the good guys.  So, it's a stretch, I admit it.  I recall how over in the prediction thread and wish list, I said I wondered if Stan would LET THEM GO and it wasn't a very popular theory. lol  Oh well.  

How did Claudia clean out her apt so fast?  I mean, it was only a day after she is shown eating her soup with plans to leave, right?  It looked like most everything was taken, save the vodka. 

[kokapetl]

32 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

No one said it was a cop show.  Some people just have different opinions than yours.  No one is more right than any others.  Some, myself included wanted them held more accountable for all the terrible things they did.  For me, it didn't have to necessarily be from law enforcement.  I would have taken one of them having to watch the other die, not that Elizabeth would have really cared or watching their kids die.  As for as things being "satisfactorily resolved,"  not at all in my opinion.  Which is what "satisfactorily resolved" is.  Not a fact by any means.

Personally, I don’t think that justice or retribution were significant themes in the show. Personally, I feel that the dramatic tension with Stan was largely not that he could potentially build a case that would lead to the Jennings’ conviction, but rather that his proximity and genuine relationships with the Jennings, which the Jennings and Stan really needed for their sanity, was a double edged sword, that at any random point during their mutually beneficial friendship, he could suddenly figure out the big secret and end up completely destroying the Jennings, and likely destroy himself mentally as well. I felt the garage confrontation, which focused on the Jennings and Stans relationship, was a satisfactory resolution to that conflict. In my opinion, the Jennings demonstrated their genuine trust and high regard for Stan by asking him to look after Henry. I believe they do care about their children.

[whiporee]

I don't think Stan betrayed his country. I think Phillip's case was that he was doing his job. Stan did his job in Indiana. I think Stan understood what it means to be a soldier. 

P&E killed and spied for their country. They didn't do it for personal gain, or for revenge (don't forget for a second what Stan did in a "war" situation). They followed orders. 

He would have been justified in bringing them in, of course, but I can see her POV in letting them go. Plus, he did find them. He did stop them. He just didn't make them pay for their crimes. Maybe in a war situation, that's enough. 

I think Paige skates. I wish there had been a scene with P&E telling her to take care of herself -- rat them all out -- or if that last scene at Claudia's had been with the FBI in tow, but as I write my epilogues, that's what happened. 

The episode climaxed halfway through it -- once Stan found them, there was no doubt in my mind he was going to let them go -- so the rest of it just carried this sad, defeated feeling to it. It was solidly acted, well put together and maybe the "happiest" ending there could be, but every bit of it just felt sad. 

[jjj]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

How did Claudia clean out her apt so fast?  I mean, it was only a day after she is shown eating her soup with plans to leave, right?  It looked like most everything was taken, save the vodka. 

And ironically, the message about the coup, which led to Claudia leaving, never did get sent. 

Apparently, there were still teams that did cleanup remaining!  

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Dminches said:

I don't see how can discount the depth of Stan's and Philip's relationship.  When things when sour with Stan and his wife he went to Philip.  That in itself defines what Stan thought about Philip.  And, he loved Henry which also speaks volumes.

As an FBI agent Stan never played it strictly by the books.  Looks at his relationship with Oleg which crossed the line.  Maybe it was just due to Nina but there again it shows how Stan was greatly influenced by his emotions.  His feelings toward Gennadi is another example.

He murdered a man due his feelings about Amador, then forgot about those feelings, so the writers could have Stan allowing Liz and Phil to escape. Or they made Stan such a monumental idiot that he doesn't grasp the likelihood that it was Phil who honeypotted Martha and killed Amador. Gene as well. Good freakin' grief, the writing of Stan in this show was just awful, from beginning to end. I almost feel bad for Noah Emmerich.

[jjj]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

He murdered a man due his feelings about Amador, then forgot about those feelings, so the writers could have Stan allowing Liz and Phil to escape. Or they made Stan such a monumental idiot that he doesn't grasp the likelihood that it was Phil who honeypotted Martha and killed Amador. Gene as well. Good freakin' grief, the writing of Stan in this show was just awful, from beginning to end. I almost feel bad for Noah Emmerich.

Someone above in this page quoted a note from Emmerich to the writers saying this.  Don't know if it is real.  

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I brought up the CIA because that is the logical comparison of what OUR country does, when comparing what Philip and Elizabeth did for the USSR.  It wasn't an attack on you.

I always try to judge Philip and Elizabeth by the same standards I would judge our own spies.

I'd think pretty poorly of CIA spies who slaughtered U.S. citizens like pigs in a slaughterhouse, because those U.S. citizens decided to defect to the Soviet Union.

[Erin9]

3 minutes ago, jjj said:

And ironically, the message about the coup, which led to Claudia leaving, never did get sent. 

Apparently, there were still teams that did cleanup remaining!  

It is now. Philip and Elizabeth got to deliver the message to Arkady in person. Mission accomplished. Just not as planned. 

[EtheltoTillie]

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

How did Claudia clean out her apt so fast?  I mean, it was only a day after she is shown eating her soup with plans to leave, right?  It looked like most everything was taken, save the vodka. 

There was never much in there.  I think it was a safe house for their meetings, not her apartment.  I could be wrong, though.

[whiporee]

9 hours ago, KBrownie said:

They should have never put them in that position, to begin with, but Mother Russia comes first, last, always. 

Without starting any kind of argument, would you feel the same way about an American who put their country first, last, always? An American spy who was willing to sacrifice everything for their country? Because it seems to me that's something most consider heroic. It's just that this time those "virtues" were for our enemy. But does it make it any less heroic? 

Just curious.  

[kokapetl]

Claudia’s apartment looked the same to me. 

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

He murdered a man due his feelings about Amador, then forgot about those feelings, so the writers could have Stan allowing Liz and Phil to escape. Or they made Stan such a monumental idiot that he doesn't grasp the likelihood that it was Phil who honeypotted Martha and killed Amador. Gene as well. Good freakin' grief, the writing of Stan in this show was just awful, from beginning to end. I almost feel bad for Noah Emmerich.

From what I remember, the FBI/Stan thought the KGB had killed Amador in revenge for them killing Zhukov, and then he joined a criminal FBI & CIA conspiracy to kill another Soviet official, and Stan ended up killing a lower ranked KGB official out of rage. Phil actually killed Amador because Amador had seen “Clark’s” face while Amador was stalking Martha. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Kokapetl

[benteen]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

All I can figure is that Stan was not computing the body count in his mind as he stood there.  His best friend is denying killing people and Paige doesn't think they do either. She's still in the dark, and E is pouring it on about how they are supporting the good guys.  So, it's a stretch, I admit it.  I recall how over in the prediction thread and wish list, I said I wondered if Stan would LET THEM GO and it wasn't a very popular theory. lol  Oh well.  

How did Claudia clean out her apt so fast?  I mean, it was only a day after she is shown eating her soup with plans to leave, right?  It looked like most everything was taken, save the vodka. 

Yeah, this was a huge murder spree that Elizabeth went on, which included 2 fellow FBI agents and the Teacups.  Stan REALLY wasn't processing that and it's hard to figure out why.

[SunnyBeBe]

IMO, moving forward, Stan would have to set trap and arrest Renee or send her packing, because, for Henry to get attached to her, with the real possibility that she is KGB TOO, would be too much of a risk for Stan.  I mean, if he starts trusting Renee, calling her about his hockey games, treating her like a step mom.......THEN she's determined to be KGB....that would be too cruel.  So, I would expect Stan to flush her out, before Henry gets too attached to her.  Also, if a trained and experienced illegal like Philip, suspects that you are KGB.....there's a good chance you are KGB. I think Stan knows this by the way he recoils when Renee hugs him.  It's like he's in a trance.  I hope he snaps out of it to care for Henry and to address the Renee issue. 

[KBrownie]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I always try to judge Philip and Elizabeth by the same standards I would judge our own spies.

This is also the same standard I try to use.  I have no illusions about the crimes committed by America in the past and continue today.  Trust me, I don't think America should get away with what they do.  Same with Phillip and Elizabeth.  They aren't good people.  I don't feel that they got what they deserved in the end.  I don't understand why that's not okay.  The show never said that they were.  But they sure got an ending that usually is reserved for the good guys.  After all they'd done, they got to escape with their lives to start fresh.  Too bad they didn't afford that opportunity to their victims.  I don't care if they were "doing their jobs" or "for their county."  They still did it.  There are tons of people who do awful things just "doing their jobs."  What a world it would be if they all were never held responsible because "it was for their country" or just "doing their job."

Edited May 31, 2018 by KBrownie

[Bannon]

18 minutes ago, jjj said:

Here's the thing for me:  they basically turned Elizabeth into a vicious feral monster this season, killing in truly nasty ways for minor reasons.  The military office hitting on Paige, the poor schlub with a girlfriend at the warehouse, the Teacups, more.  These were awful, bloody killings. THE FBI AGENTS IN CHICAGO. How could Stan let that go in particular?

If they knew they were going to let her off the hook, WHY make this the most vicious killing season for her?

It's just the most ridiculous writing of Stan Beeman imaginable. I hated how the character was written early on with this show, and they doubled down in the final episode.

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

How did Claudia clean out her apt so fast?  I mean, it was only a day after she is shown eating her soup with plans to leave, right?  It looked like most everything was taken, save the vodka. 

I keep saying this, but I'll say it again.  Claudia didn't "live" there.  Claudia had use of safe houses.  She may have played (for Paige) as if it was her home, but it never was.  No paintings, nothing personal at all in that place except her coats on the coat rack and a few clothes, toiletries, and maybe an extra towel or two.  Everything was still there.

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'd think pretty poorly of CIA spies who slaughtered U.S. citizens like pigs in a slaughterhouse, because those U.S. citizens decided to defect to the Soviet Union.

I'm not talking about CIA killing US citizens, I'm talking about them killing people in the countries they operate in.  The CIA doesn't operate in the USA against US citizens.

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

There was never much in there.  I think it was a safe house for their meetings, not her apartment.  I could be wrong, though.

Yes.  It was.  Claudia is mobile, she didn't just handle Philip and Liz.

1 minute ago, whiporee said:

Without starting any kind of argument, would you feel the same way about an American who put their country first, last, always? An American spy who was willing to sacrifice everything for their country? Because it seems to me that's something most consider heroic. It's just that this time those "virtues" were for our enemy. But does it make it any less heroic? 

Just curious.  

That's exactly the way I had to look at this show all along.  SPIES are not nice people, spies do what it takes for their country.  They lie all the time.  They use anyone they need to use.  They also follow orders.

[KBrownie]

7 minutes ago, jjj said:

Someone above in this page quoted a note from Emmerich to the writers saying this.  Don't know if it is real.  

I hope it is.  If true, he probably feels that his character and everything he stood for was demolished.  

[SunnyBeBe]

I admit that Stan didn't get TOO proactive.  He seemed to on their trail like crazy, doing searches, talking to Aderholt and then when he got them right there, he froze.  But, what could he do?  I mean, it's like Philip said, What are you going to do? Shoot us?  He wouldn't shoot his best friend in front of his daughter. So, the only other option was to run and call for backup as soon as they drove away saying that they overpowered him or got away too fast.  Why he didn't....maybe, he did not want to be the one who was directly responsible for putting Henry's parents in prison for life. 

To me, it would have made better sense to have Stan actively pursuing them, along with the FBI and them using every trick in their arsenal in order to stay one step ahead. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

I'm not talking about CIA killing US citizens, I'm talking about them killing people in the countries they operate in.  The CIA doesn't operate in the USA against US citizens.

 

Liz kills Soviet citizens for nothing more than being a potential embarassment to the Soviet Union.  If CIA agents did that to U.S. citizens, for similar reasons, that would be really awful.

[scartact]

1 minute ago, KBrownie said:

 But they sure got an ending that usually is reserved for the good guys.  After all they'd done, they got to escape with their lives to start fresh.

While true they did get to escape with their lives, they can't ever start fresh. It isn't a clean slate. I'm just thinking back to season 4 (I think?) as Philip continued to grow more and more of his self-awareness and est-y and that moment where he tells Elizabeth that all of it matters, and that makes me think about how undeniable the past has always been in the show.

I can understand why some people are frustrated Phil and Liz didn't pay for what they've done with their lives, but I guess part of it depends on what your personal fundamental read on the show is.

[Ellaria]

9 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Personally, I don’t think that justice or retribution were significant themes in the show. Personally, I feel that the dramatic tension with Stan was largely not that he could potentially build a case that would lead to the Jennings’ conviction, but rather that his proximity and genuine relationships with the Jennings, which the Jennings and Stan really needed for their sanity, was a double edged sword, that at any random point during their mutually beneficial friendship, he could suddenly figure out the big secret and end up completely destroying the Jennings, and likely destroy himself mentally as well. I felt the garage confrontation, which focused on the Jennings and Stans relationship, was a satisfactory resolution to that conflict. In my opinion, the Jennings demonstrated their genuine trust and high regard for Stan by asking him to look after Henry. I believe they do care about their children.

I have always thought that this show was about the authenticity of relationships; most obviously, the fake marriage that became a real one. And I appreciated that, in the end, we are still wondering about the authenticity of some key relationships: Stan and Philip, Stan and Renee, Paige and her parents. You could even push it further and question the authenticity of the relationship of these agents and the countries that they claim to fight for and defend. 

 

9 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

How did Claudia clean out her apt so fast?  I mean, it was only a day after she is shown eating her soup with plans to leave, right?  It looked like most everything was taken, save the vodka. 

I've always assumed that Claudia did not live in the apartment (safe house) and that she went there solely for meetings with Liz and Paige.

10 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I totally agree with this. I'm not condemning Paige for it - quite the contrary -- but this is part of what made me feel that a large part of her concern with Henry was projection. She was making it all about Henry to avoid asking the more obvious question of what was going to become of her.all, years will have passed, and there are going to be basic logistical difficulties to re-establishing contact with people who will

IMO, Paige got off the train for Paige. She looked at her parents and their decisions and decided that this was not what she wanted for the rest of her life. (Hello!) Of course, concern for Henry factored into the train-jumping move. I believe that she knew it was risky and she was willing to live with that choice. What the future holds for her is left open-ended, as it should be.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Claudia’s apartment looked the same to me. 

From what I remember, the FBI/Stan thought the KGB had killed Amador in revenge for them killing Zhukov, and then he joined a criminal FBI & CIA conspiracy to kill another Soviet official, and Stan ended up killing a lower ranked KGB official out of rage. Phil actually killed Amador because Amador had seen “Clark’s” face while Amador was stalking Martha. 

 

That's exactly right.  Stan also thinks that Gregory was the one to kill Amador.  The USA started it by killing Zhukov, then the USA thought Amador was killed in retaliation for that.  Then the USA killed (well, Stan killed) poor dumb nice Vlad.

14 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yeah, this was a huge murder spree that Elizabeth went on, which included 2 fellow FBI agents and the Teacups.  Stan REALLY wasn't processing that and it's hard to figure out why.

I honestly don't understand why the writers did that when they were going to let them both get away alive. (for now anyway, I doubt their prospects are better than 50/50 to not be killed in the USSR, given their actions to save Gorbachev (who we know IS ousted in a Coup in 1991.)

14 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

IMO, moving forward, Stan would have to set trap and arrest Renee or send her packing, because, for Henry to get attached to her, with the real possibility that she is KGB TOO, would be too much of a risk for Stan.  I mean, if he starts trusting Renee, calling her about his hockey games, treating her like a step mom.......THEN she's determined to be KGB....that would be too cruel.  So, I would expect Stan to flush her out, before Henry gets too attached to her.  Also, if a trained and experienced illegal like Philip, suspects that you are KGB.....there's a good chance you are KGB. I think Stan knows this by the way he recoils when Renee hugs him.  It's like he's in a trance.  I hope he snaps out of it to care for Henry and to address the Renee issue. 

I never even considered that.  You are right though, I think Stan WILL think of that.  He'd vet the hell out of her either way though.

13 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

This is also the same standard I try to use.  I have no illusions about the crimes committed by America in the past and continue today.  Trust me, I don't think America should get away with what they do.  Same with Phillip and Elizabeth.  They aren't good people.  I don't feel that they got what they deserved in the end.  I don't understand why that's not okay.  The show never said that they were.  But they sure got an ending that usually is reserved for the good guys.  After all they'd done, they got to escape with their lives to start fresh.  Too bad they didn't afford that opportunity to their victims.

I agree.  That's why I go back to "spies are not nice people" and I have to think, well, if I root for spies in other shows, just because they are on a side I happen to agree a bit more with?  Why can't I root for Philip and Liz?  If I'm happy when the others get away, why not allow happiness for these two?

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I just assumed Claudia fled and that the apartment was abandoned.  Paige has nowhere else to go.  Her apartment is being watched.  Her parent's house is being watched.   She can't see Henry, because it puts him at risk.

She most certainly has fled, but that doesn't mean that's her house.  It's always just been a safe house.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I admit that Stan didn't get TOO proactive.  He seemed to on their trail like crazy, doing searches, talking to Aderholt and then when he got them right there, he froze.  But, what could he do?  I mean, it's like Philip said, What are you going to do? Shoot us?  He wouldn't shoot his best friend in front of his daughter. So, the only other option was to run and call for backup as soon as they drove away saying that they overpowered him or got away too fast.  Why he didn't....maybe, he did not want to be the one who was directly responsible for putting Henry's parents in prison for life. 

To me, it would have made better sense to have Stan actively pursing them, along with the FBI and them using every trick in their arsenal in order to stay one step ahead. 

Yeah, you put a slug into the person who likely killed your partner, a murder which so enraged you that you already committed murder in response. You might try to kneecap him first, and then shoot Liz dead if she charges you.

[kikaha]

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

Correct me if I'm wrong -- after Elizabeth muses that she could've managed a factory, doesn't she say something to Philip like "You might have m--" and then stops herself? I wondered if she was going to ponder whether Philip might've married Irina, but realized she didn't want to go there.

I think she was going to say, "you might have managed the local EST chapter." 

[KBrownie]

10 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Without starting any kind of argument, would you feel the same way about an American who put their country first, last, always? An American spy who was willing to sacrifice everything for their country? Because it seems to me that's something most consider heroic. It's just that this time those "virtues" were for our enemy. But does it make it any less heroic? 

Just curious.  

I already addressed this in a reply to Umbelina.  My opinion doesn't change if it were Americans.  Wrong is wrong.  If this show were Americans in Russia killing and creating innocent children as part of "doing their jobs" or "for their country," I would feel the same way.  But since this show isn't about what the Americans were doing, I'm not going to focus on that.  Phillip and Elizabeth are bad people who I feel should have had to suffer more as punishment for their many, many crimes.  Their relationship, while interesting, doesn't negate the fact that they are amoral, selfish, murderers.  

[kokapetl]

25 minutes ago, jjj said:

Here's the thing for me:  they basically turned Elizabeth into a vicious feral monster this season, killing in truly nasty ways for minor reasons.  The military office hitting on Paige, the poor schlub with a girlfriend at the warehouse, the Teacups, more.  These were awful, bloody killings. THE FBI AGENTS IN CHICAGO. How could Stan let that go in particular?

If they knew they were going to let her off the hook, WHY make this the most vicious killing season for her?

The FBI agents opened fire on the van. The Jennings fired back. In the end both sides lost men, and achieved nothing. I think that the outcome was lose-lose for a reason. 

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

I don't think Stan betrayed his country. I think Phillip's case was that he was doing his job. Stan did his job in Indiana. I think Stan understood what it means to be a soldier. 

P&E killed and spied for their country. They didn't do it for personal gain, or for revenge (don't forget for a second what Stan did in a "war" situation). They followed orders. 

He would have been justified in bringing them in, of course, but I can see her POV in letting them go. Plus, he did find them. He did stop them. He just didn't make them pay for their crimes. Maybe in a war situation, that's enough. 

I think Paige skates. I wish there had been a scene with P&E telling her to take care of herself -- rat them all out -- or if that last scene at Claudia's had been with the FBI in tow, but as I write my epilogues, that's what happened. 

The episode climaxed halfway through it -- once Stan found them, there was no doubt in my mind he was going to let them go -- so the rest of it just carried this sad, defeated feeling to it. It was solidly acted, well put together and maybe the "happiest" ending there could be, but every bit of it just felt sad. 

Yeah. When Stan caught up with them so early, I didn’t see an arrest or shoot out happening. Just didn’t seem to fit.

I don’t think Stan betrayed his country either. He helped it really by letting them go. 

MR and NE were extraordinary in that garage scene. I see exactly why Stan let them leave. Of course he did. Philip was smart to be mostly honest and real with him. (Just like with Martha, Philip showed again he understands people very well.) And so with Stan he says: It was a job. He’d burned out- like Stan had. They were done. They loved their country too. And they had a message to get back home- that benefitted everyone. Reminding Stan he was losing his son- heartbreaking. (And daughter in the end.) 

It was sad for everyone. And as happy as it could be too. I think Philip and Elizabeth knew they’d acted in Henry’s best interests. And Paige had acted in hers. I think, as awful as it was, they knew that too. She no more belonged in Russia than Henry. As Claudia said: their American children. And everyone has someone now. Hopefully- they will choose to see  each other again. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Erin9

[MisterBluxom]

I don't understand why so many people seem to think if Stan knew the truth about Amador, he would have no mercy for Philip.

My recollection was that Amador was way out of line in the first place by trying to force P to come with him because Amador lusted after Martha (as well as most every other woman alive) and P committed the terrible sin of having Martha like him more than she liked Amador (which was zero by the way). Then he was stupid and ineffectual in his handling of P. Amador got what he deserved.

If Stan had witnessed everything that happened, he would have been extremely outraged for a while. But if he thought about it for a while, I think he would have to admit that P had a right to defend himself and Amador behaved like an imbecille. He was lusting after Martha and decided to play the "big man" with P because of that. Everything went downhill for the jerk after that.

F Amador!

Edited May 31, 2018 by MissBluxom

[SunnyBeBe]

I will say that Paige did pretty well thinking on her feet when Stan first questioned them.  She came up with her being sick. Her stomachache.  It wasn't bad.  And if Stan didn't already have so much info against them, it might have worked. 

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Liz kills Soviet citizens for nothing more than being a potential embarassment to the Soviet Union.  If CIA agents did that to U.S. citizens, for similar reasons, that would be really awful.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Liz killed Tatiana because she was going to kill an honorable man who was trying his best to stop a nuclear war between the USA and the USSR that would destroy the world.  The Coup people were also going to frame him and Gorbachev as traitors selling secrets to the USA to the detriment of the USSR in order to murder Gorbachev and stop the reforms that were helping citizens in their country.

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, you put a slug into the person who likely killed your partner, a murder which so enraged you that you already committed murder in response. You might try to kneecap him first, and then shoot Liz dead if she charges you.

Again, Stan doesn't know that.  Stan thinks:

• WE killed Zhukov, so
• THEY killed Amador (KGB, Gregory) so
• WE kill Vlad (Stan, FBI)

He didn't know that Amador was spying on Martha, he didn't know Philip killed him in self defense.

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I don't understand why so many people seem to think if Stan knew the truth about Amador, he would have no mercy for Philip.

My recollection was that Amador was way out of line in the first place by trying to force P to come with him. Then he was stupid and ineffectual in his handling of P. He got what he deserved.

If Stan had witnessed exactly everything that happened, he would have been extremely outraged for a while. But if he thought about it for a while, I think he would have to admit that P had a right to defend himself and Amador behaved like an imbecille. He was lusting after Martha and decided to play the "big man" with P because of that. Everything went downhill for the jerk after that.

F Amador!

But Stan didn't witness any of that. Look, Stan's a gigantic idiot if he doesn't grasp that it was Phil who was honeypotting Martha, and that Amador got killed by Phil by following Phil from Martha's apartment. He'd have no way of knowing about Amador was being a jerk. This isn't about an objective evaluation of Amador's character, from the vantage point of a  neutral observer. It's about what Amador's partner would understand, if Amador's partner had an i.q. that reached the mid fifties.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

But Stan didn't witness any of that. Look, Stan's a gigantic idiot if he doesn't grasp that it was Phil who was honeypotting Martha, and that Amador got killed by Phil by following Phil from Martha's apartment. He'd have no way of knowing about Amador was being a jerk. This isn't about an objective evaluation of Amador's character, from the vantage point of a  neutral observer. It's about what Amador's partner would understand, if Amador's partner had an i.q. that reached the mid fifties.

HOW would Stan know, or even THINK that Amador was pissed that Martha didn't want to fuck him anymore so he was following her, let alone that it would lead to him pulling a knife on Philip and Philip having to defend himself?

The MUCH more logical interpretation of what happened to Amador was that it was in retaliation for the CIA just killing the KGB officer Zhukov.  Which is EXACTLY what Gaad, and the rest of the FBI assumed.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[MisterBluxom]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

But Stan didn't witness any of that. Look, Stan's a gigantic idiot if he doesn't grasp that it was Phil who was honeypotting Martha, and that Amador got killed by Phil by following Phil from Martha's apartment. He'd have no way of knowing about Amador was being a jerk. This isn't about an objective evaluation of Amador's character, from the vantage point of a  neutral observer. It's about what Amador's partner would understand, if Amador's partner had an i.q. that reached the mid fifties.

I have always enjoyed hearing from you in this forum. You have a unique POV and I must admit that much of my thinking has changed after reading your posts. I tend to agree with you most of the time.

I will miss your posts and hope you will let us know where you may be posting in the future. Please send me a private message if you like. Or tell us all what shows you will be following now and about which shows you may be posting.

Of all the people who post there, I think you might have an opportunity to write your own blog or column. Your opinions are very rare but well worth reading and very enjoyable - at least I enjoy them very much.

It was a pleasure to read you for the past six seasons. You are definitely my most favorite poster here.

[kokapetl]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

But Stan didn't witness any of that. Look, Stan's a gigantic idiot if he doesn't grasp that it was Phil who was honeypotting Martha, and that Amador got killed by Phil by following Phil from Martha's apartment. He'd have no way of knowing about Amador was being a jerk. This isn't about an objective evaluation of Amador's character, from the vantage point of a  neutral observer. It's about what Amador's partner would understand, if Amador's partner had an i.q. that reached the mid fifties.

But would Stan automatically pin all suspected KGB killings in the Washington metro area on Phil and Liz? 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Liz killed Tatiana because she was going to kill an honorable man who was trying his best to stop a nuclear war between the USA and the USSR that would destroy the world.  The Coup people were also going to frame him and Gorbachev as traitors selling secrets to the USA to the detriment of the USSR in order to murder Gorbachev and stop the reforms that were helping citizens in their country.

Again, Stan doesn't know that.  Stan thinks:

• WE killed Zhukov, so
• THEY killed Amador (KGB, Gregory) so
• WE kill Vlad (Stan, FBI)

He didn't know that Amador was spying on Martha, he didn't know Philip killed him in self defense.

Um, I wasn't talking about Tatiana. I was talking about the husband and wife that Liz sliced and diced, because Claudia told her to, because having them defect would be awful for the Soviet Union's image.

Yes, Stan's an idiot. It has been a failing of the writing of this show for a long time.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Um, I wasn't talking about Tatiana. I was talking about the husband and wife that Liz sliced and diced, because Claudia told her to, because having them defect would be awful for the Soviet Union's image.

Yes, Stan's an idiot. It has been a failing of the writing of this show for a long time.

Sure.  The CIA would NEVER do something like that with American traitors.

ahem

;~)

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

But would Stan automatically pin all suspected KGB killings in the Washington metro area on Phil and Liz? 

Geez, how many illegals does Stan think are running around D.C.? They have some sense of who "Clark" was. Stan's such an idiot that he doesn't grasp that Clark was likely Phil? And that Amador likely tailed Clark from Martha's apartment? Ugh.

[Umbelina]

Just now, Bannon said:

Geez, how many illegals does Stan think are running around D.C.? They have some sense of who "Clark" was. Stan's such an idiot that he doesn't grasp that Clark was likely Phil? And that Amador likely tailed Clark from Martha's apartment? Ugh.

In real life, wasn't it about 10?  Those that they caught anyway...

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Sure.  The CIA would NEVER do something like that with American traitors.

ahem

;~)

Ahem, what? I never stated or implied the CIA would never do such a thing. I stated that I'd view such a thing as awful, if it did.

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

In real life, wasn't it about 10?  Those that they caught anyway...

So Stan's such a moron that he doesn't grasp the likelihood that Phil was Clark, and Clark killed Amador. Like I said, ugh.

[Dev F]

29 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

I hope it is.  If true, he probably feels that his character and everything he stood for was demolished.  

You know, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Noah Emmerich did not really write a snotty note telling the showrunners he wishes they hadn't given him a job for five years, then leak it to the press the day after their series' final episode debuted to wide critical acclaim.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

You know, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Noah Emmerich did not really write a snotty note telling the showrunners he wishes they hadn't given him a job for five years, then leak it to the press the day after their series' final episode debuted to wide critical acclaim.

I'm an interview junkie, and no, I haven't seen Noah say anything bad about the writing or the show, or even hint at it.

[misstwpherecool]

I'm disappointed. Psycho serial killer Liz gets away with it. 3 dollar bills Liz and Phil lie to Stan like two bit thugs. We needed more justice than leaving their children behind who practically raised themselves to begin with.

The musical montages and prolonged scenes as usual did litte to move/add to the story. Series final and we get music videos along with a dream/nightmare???

I was surprised when Paige agreed to go with P & E in the first place. I was wondering why she didn't put up a bigger fight to stay. They eventually got that right.

Although you wondered who or when somebody would get shot in garage it wasn't the most fantastic scene ever. I would've been more satisfied with a tragic bloody ending for those characters. In theory Stan could be in trouble for leaving the surveillance and be accused of warning the P & E. There is so much possible aftermath which they simply did not touch.

Do they have raspberry or tomato symbols here.

[Bannon]

48 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I have always enjoyed hearing from you in this forum. You have a unique POV and I must admit that much of my thinking has changed after reading your posts. I tend to agree with you most of the time.

I will miss your posts and hope you will let us know where you may be posting in the future. Please send me a private message if you like. Or tell us all what shows you will be following now and about which shows you may be posting.

Of all the people who post there, I think you might have an opportunity to write your own blog or column. Your opinions are very rare but well worth reading and very enjoyable - at least I enjoy them very much.

It was a pleasure to read you for the past six seasons. You are definitely my most favorite poster here.

Thanks for the kind words. I really like Better Call Saul. I will hate watch Ray Donovans last season. I don't think I will be able to force myself to watch Homeland any longer. I just quit Westworld.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Bannon

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Ahem, what? I never stated or implied the CIA would never do such a thing. I stated that I'd view such a thing as awful, if it did.

So Stan's such a moron that he doesn't grasp the likelihood that Phil was Clark, and Clark killed Amador. Like I said, ugh.

He, and the rest of the FBI thought it was in retaliation for the CIA killing Zhukov.

No one knew he was at Martha's.  They had no reason to even suspect he'd been at Martha's.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[kokapetl]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Sure.  The CIA would NEVER do something like that with American traitors.

ahem

;~)

I always assumed that the CIA was doing stuff in the Soviet Union that somewhat  mirrored what the KGB was doing through Directorate S in America. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Kokapetl said:

I always assumed that the CIA was doing stuff in the Soviet Union that somewhat  mirrored what the KGB was doing through Directorate S in America. 

Tougher to move around in the USSR, but other countries?  Of course. 

Spies are not nice people to be around.  Fascinating, but their jobs are dirty.

[J-Man]

In addition to the more obvious ones (Martha, Renee, Claudia), I'd have liked to have heard a little bit about what happened with some of the other characters, like Young-Hee, Tuan, Kimmie, and Jackson.

Edited May 31, 2018 by J-Man

[Ellaria]

20 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Geez, how many illegals does Stan think are running around D.C.? They have some sense of who "Clark" was. Stan's such an idiot that he doesn't grasp that Clark was likely Phil? And that Amador likely tailed Clark from Martha's apartment? Ugh.

I hesitate to jump into the "Stan is an Idiot" discussion but here goes...

I, too, have been critical of the writing for Stan. Choices were made to give us his epiphany about his BFFs quite late in the story. We can quibble with that decision. However, in the context of what we watched last night, I accept that Stan has not yet put ALL of the pieces together about who P&E were and the crimes they committed.

That confrontation was about personal betrayal; he was questioning the authenticity of his relationship with them and Philip most of all. That was not Law & Order Stan. Perhaps it should have been. Instead, it was Beer-Drinking Buddy Stan. I imagine that weeks/months from now, as Stan continues to process these events, the law & order version of him may come to understand the extent of their crimes. 

And this is why I enjoyed the finale: all of these characters will be dealing with the choices that they made (good ones and bad ones) for a long time.

As an aside, I accept that many will not agree with my opinion.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Ellaria Sand