S06.E10: START

[MisterBluxom]

On 6/3/2018 at 8:31 AM, Milburn Stone said:

My first reaction is to scoff, because although that motivation is in there somewhere, there's so much else going on with Paige in that moment. (Inability to see a future in Russia that isn't hellish, reconnection with the fact that she is inescapably American at her core, devotion to her brother, guilt over her complicity that drives her to seek expiation rather than escape, and probably five more reasons at least, which is why the moment is so dramatically rich.) But I suppose distrust of her parents is at the root of everything. If she trusted her parents, that would necessarily mean that she believed them when they said, "Trust us, you're going to be fine." And she didn't.

I agree. I don't think Holly Taylor is wise enough or sufficiently knowledgeable in the ways of agencies like the CIA or FBI or KGB to be able to make reasonable assessments of the way in which they operate.

It may seem strange. But she does not necessarily understand the motivation of the character she plays - and especially in this case,  I just can't believe that she is able to understand the reason the writers decided to have her character behave in the way she did.

But given all that has been said about Holly Taylor, I find myself feeling very forgiving towards her about the issues that so many of us (including myself) have criticized her. She was a very young lady when this series began and I fell like giving her a great deal of the benefit of the doubt. I just hope she will avoid making the same mistakes other actors have made.

Do you know who Angus Jones is? I would expect that most people who read this may not know who he is and that is really a shame. He was a young actor who played the "half man" character on the TV show "Two and a Half Men". He spoke out against that show saying that it was (I forget his exact words but they were something like the following). He claimed the show was just stupid and it was wrong for young people to watch it. I think he may have brought God into that discussion saying it was some kind of "sin" to watch that show.

Naturally, the show runner was none too pleased with the young fool and understandably so. He was dropped from the show and I don't think he has worked very much since that time. In one sense, it was a real shame. But in another sense, most everyone should know better than to bite the hand that feeds you.  He has a perfect right to voice his opinion. But he can't expect people to continue giving him scads of money to work on a show after he has spoken out in the media and made extremely negative (and somewhat bizarre) remarks about that TV show.

Edited June 5, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

40 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But I agree with @Dev F that Paige essentially was walking around with her fingers in her ears. There were points where I thought that Paige was unbelievably stupid this season, namely in her utter inability to comprehend the kind of desperate circumstances that Claudia and Elizabeth had experienced. But to me, it made sense that she had gone all in for the KGB even if it required deep denial, because over the past few seasons, we had seen her develop a kind of emotional Stockholm Syndrome when it came to her family.

After Paige found out that her parents were spies, she told Pastor Tim, one of the most important figures in her life. And the end result was the permanent souring of her relationship with Tim and Alice - and by extension, the other people in the church community -- as she was forced to report on them to her parents. So that avenue was closed off to her. In around the same time period, she wants to pursue her crush on Matthew, and that is ruined for her by her knowledge of her parent's profession as well. Obviously, she could have had other relationships that were less inherently fraught than her interactions with the pastor who knew the family secret and the son of an FBI agent, but I can see how Paige might have realized that as long as she could never share this earth-shattering secret with anyone, there was a limit to how close she could get to any significant other or even close friend. So embracing her parent's world becomes an emotional defense mechanism, and that's not even accounting for the natural desire to think your parents are righteous and, at the very least, not monstrous. 

In these last two episodes, Paige's illusions are shattered on several levels, which is why I buy that she made the choice she did -- and that she's now, finally, mature enough to have a chance of escaping prosecution as an accomplice. 

And that right there is confirmation to me for why this scene didn't work. Even if we ignore the fact that Stan has to be a moron to believe Philip, the pivotal scene of the series shouldn't depend on one of the main characters making a choice on totally false premises. Not if it is going to be played as the ultimate, perhaps even noble choice of the personal over the political, and not as the tragic downfall of the character. 

Paige would not have to be essentially walking around, eyes closed, fingers jammed in ears, to not know that there warehouse caper resulted in a triple homicide. She would ACTUALLY have to do it, unless you want to suppose a "win the Powerball" level of improbability. If the point is that Paige is so nuts that the information can be directly provided her, and she denies it still, then the writers need to SHOW US that. To draw on another better show, David Chase showed us how easily Carmela Soprano denied her murderous reality, and then Chase used that denial to build compelling dramatic tension.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Paige would not have to be essentially walking around, eyes closed, fingers jammed in ears, to not know that there warehouse caper resulted in a triple homicide. She would ACTUALLY have to do it, unless you want to suppose a "win the Powerball" level of improbability. If the point is that Paige is so nuts that the information can be directly provided her, and she denies it still, then the writers need to SHOW US that. To draw on another better show, David Chase showed us how easily Carmela Soprano denied her murderous reality, and then Chase used that denial to build compelling dramatic tension.

Why would she actually have to do it? If she's not watching the news or reading the newspapers there's no reason she'd see it. It's not like it's the kind of news that everyone would be talking about at school.

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

That's exactly what she was doing. Honestly, there are plenty of students at every college who have no interest in current events and don't know what's going on. Some of them are a lot more uninformed than Paige. Of course we can all see why Paige, as someone who's committing treason several times a week, ought to be interested in whether her crimes are being found out or if there's any trace of them but clearly Paige was not. She knew, at heart, that whatever was going on was probably worse than she imagined. She chose to see her mother as a brave hero who would make her one too. She's in the closet with a blanket over her head because she thinks this is the only way she can connect to people. She has to be a spy because only spies can know her big secret.

 

Paige is not a marketing major at the University of Maryland. She is at George Washington University, taking classes appropriate for applying for a State Department internship, and she is among like minded students. People like this are news junkies. Her mother has been training her to be an intelligence operative for more than 3 years. Intelligence operatives are trained to consume local media, because even when it is complete propaganda, you learn things by doing do. I'm sorry, but there is no way I can find it remotely possible that Paige has not been exposed to the information that warehouse caper resulted in 3 murders. If the point is that she has, and then chose to block that out, then the writers need to show us that.

[SusanSunflower]

Paige is a college student.  College students, in any good college, are exposed to "current events" as they relate to classroom material (particularly in the first two years of survey classes ... true in high school too ).  Back in the 1980's people still bought and read the newspaper regularly because there was no other way to stay abreast of events (Newsweek and Time magazine were popular too) -- there was no internet or CNN and depending on your schedule the 6 oclock nightly news might not fit .... 

Paige doesn't know jack about what's going on because ..... she's written that way .... keep it simple.  (and no I don't think that's "realistic" unless maybe she's in cosmetology school or a theatre major. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Why would she actually have to do it? If she's not watching the news or reading the newspapers there's no reason she'd see it. It's not like it's the kind of news that everyone would be talking about at school.

The chance in 1987, at George Washington University, among a bunch of students that aspire to get internships with Congress and the State Department, that Paige would not be a consumer of local news, is extraordinarily far fetched. People like that read the Washington Post daily, from a very early age. This is before we get to the notion of someone being trained for years to become an intelligence operative, without fulfilling the job requirement of consuming local news media.

[companionenvy]

24 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The chance in 1987, at George Washington University, among a bunch of students that aspire to get internships with Congress and the State Department, that Paige would not be a consumer of local news, is extraordinarily far fetched. People like that read the Washington Post daily, from a very early age. This is before we get to the notion of someone being trained for years to become an intelligence operative, without fulfilling the job requirement of consuming local news media.

That's assuming Paige is the typical GW student, or, for that matter, the typical intelligence trainee. Neither is true. Unlike people in those category, Paige had compelling reason to deliberately hide her head in the sand, rather than to avidly seek out information. 

The murder of a few guards in a warehouse would not have to come up in a class on the origins of the Cold War, or American Foreign Policy, or whatever it is Paige was taking. Neither do I think, even among GW students, it would have been a hot topic of conversation in the dining hall. This is pre-internet and 24 hour news cycle. If Paige isn't watching the nightly news or reading the newspaper, she doesn't have to find out about it. 

[SusanSunflower]

MY bad -- CNN was founded in 1980 although I do not know when it gained ubiquity in public places (only to lose it to FOX in the 1990) .... but even if Paige wanted to avoid newspapers, it's likely that CNN was first inescapable in places like cafeterias and other communal campus spaces ....   again, giving the writers too much credit, I wondered if SOME of these murders might have been hushed up or downplayed by the national security/news cooperation but many of the recent murders might well have been too bizarre to put a lid on first responders and other LE personnel talking about crimes on their turf. 

eta:  On the eve of the summit, along with other random but suspicious activities (including the Teacups) .... yeah, the warehouse wasn't just any warehouse .... and nothing was taken ...  as with other E killings, trying to figure out who would have or even would have wanted to break into or managed penetrate that space ... much less kill the innocent bystander they found there .... it becomes suspicious because of how mysterious (doesn't make any sense) it is when considering who/what/why/when/how. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

That's assuming Paige is the typical GW student, or, for that matter, the typical intelligence trainee. Neither is true. Unlike people in those category, Paige had compelling reason to deliberately hide her head in the sand, rather than to avidly seek out information. 

The murder of a few guards in a warehouse would not have to come up in a class on the origins of the Cold War, or American Foreign Policy, or whatever it is Paige was taking. Neither do I think, even among GW students, it would have been a hot topic of conversation in the dining hall. This is pre-internet and 24 hour news cycle. If Paige isn't watching the nightly news or reading the newspaper, she doesn't have to find out about it. 

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Not being a daily consumer of the Washington Post would be a significant detriment to George Washington student's chance of getting an internship at the State Department. Her mother would insist upon it.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

And that right there is confirmation to me for why this scene didn't work. Even if we ignore the fact that Stan has to be a moron to believe Philip, the pivotal scene of the series shouldn't depend on one of the main characters making a choice on totally false premises. Not if it is going to be played as the ultimate, perhaps even noble choice of the personal over the political, and not as the tragic downfall of the character. 

I don't think Stan does believe the Jenningses have never killed anyone. Philip's intention wasn't to sell any particular untruth but to focus Stan's attention on the parts of the truth that were likely to win their freedom -- that he didn't do that kind of thing anymore, that he was sorry for all the stuff he did do, that he now has a different mission that will benefit the whole world. It's for all those reasons that Stan let him go, but of course that would never have happened if he'd focused on all the people they'd killed instead. It was, in effect, both a work and a noble choice -- which is why I found it so interesting.

And maybe part of why the dark side of it doesn't bother me so much is because of the unambiguously positive developments that follow: Philip tells Stan that his wife might be a spy, directly betraying the interests of the Soviets so that his friend won't become another Martha, and Stan puts aside the distractions of both the Communist hunt and his suspiciously perfect wife to be there for Henry when he needs it most. The latter is where Stan's story ends, not with him being a dupe.

14 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

That's assuming Paige is the typical GW student, or, for that matter, the typical intelligence trainee. Neither is true. Unlike people in those category, Paige had compelling reason to deliberately hide her head in the sand, rather than to avidly seek out information. 

The murder of a few guards in a warehouse would not have to come up in a class on the origins of the Cold War, or American Foreign Policy, or whatever it is Paige was taking. Neither do I think, even among GW students, it would have been a hot topic of conversation in the dining hall. This is pre-internet and 24 hour news cycle. If Paige isn't watching the nightly news or reading the newspaper, she doesn't have to find out about it. 

Now, here, I totally agree. I have no problem accepting that Paige's schoolmates weren't whispering before class about some security guards that were murdered in Newington. More specifically, I don't think the writers committed some unforgivable error by not establishing what Paige may or may not have learned by following the local news. They certainly could have made an issue of it, as they did when Gregory was killed or the Connorses were murdered. But there are also plenty of times over the course of the series where suspicious deaths go unnoticed by the media. To me that's a minor narrative choice based on the needs of a particular storyline, and it wouldn't have occurred to me to scrutinize it for strict plausibility -- any more than I'd complain that in "Walter Taffet," it was totally unrealistic for every single character to encounter a doppelganger who represents the true version of what they've been pretending to be. I mean, what are the chances of that? All in the same day?

But, obviously, everyone draws that line of plausibility somewhere different. I still think the series' worst "bridge too far" moment was making the KGB phone system essentially magic, but no one else seems to be bothered by it.

[SusanSunflower]

But Paige knew she was the get-away driver from that "mission" at that warehouse .... she ostensibly / CRITICALLY did not know that 3 guards have been gunned down and killed (burglaries do not usually involve murder) ... so -- even a passing overheard mention (ain't it awful, 3 men dead -- or what a mystery -- who would burgle that warehouse???) or glanced at front page of the newspaper might have DESTROYED her (oh so ridiculous) naivete about "what mommy really does at work" aka "we don't kill people" ....

I don't know if "Russian Defectors Savagely Murdered in front of Infant Son" managed to stay off the front page ... I'm guessing that story would have been hard to contain .... (good thing Paige didn't know they were under Stan's protection)

I did wonder just this morning  --  given that P&E weren't even supposed to share their real names -- how Cooking and Reminiscing with Claudia fit in ..... and how Elizabeth and Phillip handled the Paige's quite reasonable curiosity about their Russian past-lives .... where were you born? stuff. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

MY bad -- CNN was founded in 1980 although I do not know when it gained ubiquity in public places (only to lose it to FOX in the 1990) .... but even if Paige wanted to avoid newspapers, it's likely that CNN was first inescapable in places like cafeterias and other communal campus spaces ....   again, giving the writers too much credit, I wondered if SOME

I am Paige's age and at least in my experience CNN wasn't inescapable anywhere. There were plenty of places with no TV at all, and if there was one it wasn't tuned to a 24 hours news channel. I think CNN only became that important in the early 90s with the Gulf War.

20 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I did wonder just this morning  --  given that P&E weren't even supposed to share their real names -- how Cooking and Reminiscing with Claudia fit in ..... and how Elizabeth and Phillip handled the Paige's quite reasonable curiosity about their Russian past-lives .... where were you born? stuff. 

They answered her questions honestly. We saw them both tell Paige their real names and where they were from. She didn't have that much curiosity but what she asked they answered.

[Bannon]

33 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I don't think Stan does believe the Jenningses have never killed anyone. Philip's intention wasn't to sell any particular untruth but to focus Stan's attention on the parts of the truth that were likely to win their freedom -- that he didn't do that kind of thing anymore, that he was sorry for all the stuff he did do, that he now has a different mission that will benefit the whole world. It's for all those reasons that Stan let him go, but of course that would never have happened if he'd focused on all the people they'd killed instead. It was, in effect, both a work and a noble choice -- which is why I found it so interesting.

And maybe part of why the dark side of it doesn't bother me so much is because of the unambiguously positive developments that follow: Philip tells Stan that his wife might be a spy, directly betraying the interests of the Soviets so that his friend won't become another Martha, and Stan puts aside the distractions of both the Communist hunt and his suspiciously perfect wife to be there for Henry when he needs it most. The latter is where Stan's story ends, not with him being a dupe.

Now, here, I totally agree. I have no problem accepting that Paige's schoolmates weren't whispering before class about some security guards that were murdered in Newington. More specifically, I don't think the writers committed some unforgivable error by not establishing what Paige may or may not have learned by following the local news. They certainly could have made an issue of it, as they did when Gregory was killed or the Connorses were murdered. But there are also plenty of times over the course of the series where suspicious deaths go unnoticed by the media. To me that's a minor narrative choice based on the needs of a particular storyline, and it wouldn't have occurred to me to scrutinize it for strict plausibility -- any more than I'd complain that in "Walter Taffet," it was totally unrealistic for every single character to encounter a doppelganger who represents the true version of what they've been pretending to be. I mean, what are the chances of that? All in the same day?

But, obviously, everyone draws that line of plausibility somewhere different. I still think the series' worst "bridge too far" moment was making the KGB phone system essentially magic, but no one else seems to be bothered by it.

So Stan is swayed in part by Phil saying he didn't do those things anymore, despite the fact that Stan is 100% certain, and correctly so,  of Phil being involved in the murders of FBI agents in Chicago within the past 10 days or so?

Like I said. I do not get it.

[SusanSunflower]

I remember CNN first being on 24/7/365 at the laundromat ... it was also on continuously in the main lobbies of the hospital I worked at ... I don't remember when it started ...  I do remember it also being on in some cafeteria  around the same time ... ( It's not part of the (very) basic cable package on Dish now, but at the time, it seemed to me to be everywhere people waited -- the airport, for example)  I never had cable until it came with an apartment I rented circa 1995.  

I was of course correcting my previous statement that there was no CNN  to make Paige's avoidance merely a matter of print media.  (about radio, I know nothing) 

Edited June 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

So Stan is swayed in part by Phil saying he didn't do those things anymore, despite the fact that Stan is 100% certain, and correctly so,  of Phil being involved in the murders of FBI agents in Chicago within the past 10 days or so?

That's one of the consistent truths of S6, I think. Philip keeps trying to say that he's out because he retired, but of course he can't retire. It's not even like he's not working but still staying in the US under a false identity which is illegal too. Philip was working Kimmy all this time. He's been spying with Oleg (on his own people, but as we see with Oleg, it's still espionage) and once Elizabeth needed him--as we all know she would--he ran to Chicago, was involved in an op that killed multiple FBI agents and chopped up a body. Oh, and he also slept with Kimmy before he blew up that plot. Plus he just got caught in the park meeting with Father Andrei.

All of these things are more intense than Paige, the one who's ostensibly working as a spy now, even does herself. But to Philip, he's out. The Kimmy op alone would get him decades in prison if he wasn't traded, but he's trying to define himself as retired because he just means he's trying to avoid the stuff about the job he doesn't like. But to an FBI agent even the stuff he's okay with is totally NOT okay. In fact, it's funny, because what Philip really means by retired is that he's a more realistic enemy spy now, rather than the crazy TV version he's been for a while.

It can't help but remind me of the season finale of another show this season where a character decides to live a better life starting...now. Until something comes up and they have to do something awful again. After which they vow they're going to be better starting...now. There were always going to be assignments and things Philip did.

Edited June 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Not being a daily consumer of the Washington Post would be a significant detriment to George Washington student's chance of getting an internship at the State Department. Her mother would insist upon it.

I understand. I just disagree. Elizabeth is breaking a lot of rules with Paige's training, and Paige has broken a lot of the rules Elizabeth has tried to set for her. Logic might dictate that Elizabeth should be expecting Paige to keep up with the news, but logic would also dictate that they wouldn't blow a potential deep cover operative by having her act as lookout on serious criminal operations. We see what Claudia and Elizabeth are actually doing with Paige, and it isn't quizzing her on current events. 

I will allow that a little bit of suspension of disbelief is required, as Paige is evidently following news of the summit and knows enough, IIRC, to have some idea of which senators are powerful and relevant. But as far as these things go, it doesn't take much for me to buy that even if Paige has some grasp of the news, she isn't reading the paper every day and didn't see anything about the murders. Certainly, it is nowhere near the level of contrivance that has her boyfriend deciding to tell her about running into drunk Jackson at a party. 

I'm sure if Paige had gotten around to applying for the state department internship, she would have gotten a crash course on current affairs in advance of her interview, enough for her to acquit herself reasonably well in a fairly brief interview. While that's a coveted position for a college student, I don't believe hill intern Paige would have been doing so much that she would have been exhaustively vetted for the job. 

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

Arkady warned Igor of that possibility after Oleg was arrested, when he thought there was now no way to expose the hardliners' treachery. Philip and Elizabeth returning home with the information Oleg was supposed to obtain resolves that concern. Plus, we know that the conspirators didn't succeed in moving against their enemies, because the series reflects real history, and Gorbachev was not in fact deposed in 1987 for ceding Russian military secrets to the Americans.

As for more speculative concerns like "What if the CIA tries to kill them?" I don't know why we need to account for possibilities the series never invited us to consider. Indeed, unless the show ended with Philip and Elizabeth's deaths, I can't imagine a situation in which it would be impossible to imagine them getting killed in some retaliatory operation by one side or the other. So I don't know why the chosen ending should be considered a failure for not foreclosing outcomes that virtually no possible ending would foreclose.

 

We do know that a group of highly placed Soviets do get rid of Gorbachev just four years later though, and it's beyond logical to assume the same players are involved.

We saw the CIA kill Zhukov.  3 dead FBI agents, 1 dead general, and fairly soon they are going to know about most, if not all, of the killing on American soil done by Philip and Elizabeth.   Do I think that's a likely end?  No, I really don't.  I think it's much more likely that since Elizabeth can identify both a General and Claudia as members of the Coup, and Arkady knows his boss is a member, and seems to be aware of several other KGB and highly placed Soviet officials who are involved, that THEY would eliminate the three of them, rightly assuming that whatever Elizabeth knows, Philip knows.

The powerful Coup people have reasons beyond simple revenge to take those three out, although revenge also serves as a warning to others, "Don't fuck with us."  That, is a very Soviet thing.

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

The assassination attempt was never supposed to a secret, though. The whole point of the conspiracy was to admit that the KGB killed Nesterenko but lie about why he was killed. So of course Gorbachev was going to learn that his negotiator was targeted and thus realize that some plot was afoot, but it wouldn't provide him with a specific defense against what they were planning.

I agree.  They were going to frame Nesterenko and Gorbachev for treason.  However, I don't think letting Philip and Elizabeth escape was needed in order for that message to get back to Gorbachev.  The USA wanted START to succeed.  Stan was perfectly capable of telling his bosses, who would then tell the president that hard-line Stalin types in the USSR were going trying to derail START, reformations in the USSR, and also Gorbachev.    It's very hard for me to picture Reagan not passing that information along to Gorbachev.  Impossible really.  Reagan certainly didn't want a hard-liner in charge.

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

And of course it's also true that he was sanitizing things by not admitting to anything more egregious than "screwing people" and "recruiting Americans." The showrunners have talked about how of course Stan wasn't going to let them go if they just shrugged and said, "Oh, sure, we killed a whole buncha people."

And that right there is confirmation to me for why this scene didn't work. Even if we ignore the fact that Stan has to be a moron to believe Philip, the pivotal scene of the series shouldn't depend on one of the main characters making a choice on totally false premises. Not if it is going to be played as the ultimate, perhaps even noble choice of the personal over the political, and not as the tragic downfall of the character. 

The scene actually DID work for me, I thought it was absolutely stunning.  On paper, it doesn't work for me though, and Dev F just pointed out a reason.  Stan would want to know just whom they have recruited, if nothing else.  The scene worked because of the acting, in spite of the fact that the show oddly chose to keep Philip and Stan at quite a distance for the last two seasons (FOUR long years on the show.)  It would have worked FAR better if Stan and Philip had shared some bonding time in the past two seasons.  I get that Stan needed distance to have a new perspective on Philip, to finally figure things out.  The fail was to separate these two men so much *by the use of Renee* for years, and then make friendship a reason to let them all go.

It really comes down to three main things for me.  The 3 dead FBI agents killed.  Stan and Philip no longer hanging out.  Elizabeth's killing spree.  All of those make this scene much more difficult to accept.   It's not just the episode, it's the deliberate lead in to the episode that makes me scratch my head.

I LOVED this episode for many reasons.  It was a great episode in spite of the head scratching, simply because the actors MADE me believe it while I was watching.  Awards all around I hope. 

I DISLIKED this as a finale, because there was no resolve for ANY of our characters.  I didn't want or need it to "wrap everything up in a bow" as I made clear in my earlier post.  I have a real problem with them not wrapping up a damn thing though.  To make it a great finale, for me, they needed to address at least one or two characters futures, especially since it left EVERYONE in jeopardy/danger.  The writers didn't give us an ending at all, not for anyone, and I have a problem with that. 

It's actually impossible for me to believe that even super-spy-idiot Paige would not deliberately check out the newspapers to read up on operations she was actually INVOLVED in.  The warehouse, the sailor for just two examples.  Simple curiosity and self-interest would make her do that. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[SWLinPHX]

On 6/1/2018 at 4:48 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

I agree. Scenes/dialogue can be interpreted a variety of ways, particularly once we have seen the finale. In hindsight, her comment about loneliness takes on different meaning. Some of it is about Henry. Some of it may be about going to a country that she doesn't understand and doesn't belong to. Being there with her parents doesn't necessarily address a feeling of being alone and out of her element.

She is also the one that asks if Stan can be trusted. That may have informed her decision to leave the train and probably is indicative of what her next step will be.

In that final phone call, didn't Philip also tell Henry to "be himself?" If so, she heard that advice and took it to heart.

All excellent points.  I think it was very realistic that she would not end up in Russia.  Both kids were too old and near adulthood to be forced to go to such a foreign, far-off and oppressive country at that point.

[Eulipian 5k]

On 5/31/2018 at 12:04 AM, Cardie said:

She did eventually fall in love with Philip, too, but she doesn't care for him or the kids as intensely as Philip does for her and them. She's already getting into the idea of Act III of their lives in Russia.

It's sad  they lost  their kids, and surely two people at Matthew's and Keri's ages couldn't  possibly  have  another child?

As for Stan, he did say once he found it hard to trust his first wife when he was undercover. Renee won't last a year; he'll  spot her getting too close to the mail robot.

[Bannon]

42 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I understand. I just disagree. Elizabeth is breaking a lot of rules with Paige's training, and Paige has broken a lot of the rules Elizabeth has tried to set for her. Logic might dictate that Elizabeth should be expecting Paige to keep up with the news, but logic would also dictate that they wouldn't blow a potential deep cover operative by having her act as lookout on serious criminal operations. We see what Claudia and Elizabeth are actually doing with Paige, and it isn't quizzing her on current events. 

I will allow that a little bit of suspension of disbelief is required, as Paige is evidently following news of the summit and knows enough, IIRC, to have some idea of which senators are powerful and relevant. But as far as these things go, it doesn't take much for me to buy that even if Paige has some grasp of the news, she isn't reading the paper every day and didn't see anything about the murders. Certainly, it is nowhere near the level of contrivance that has her boyfriend deciding to tell her about running into drunk Jackson at a party. 

I'm sure if Paige had gotten around to applying for the state department internship, she would have gotten a crash course on current affairs in advance of her interview, enough for her to acquit herself reasonably well in a fairly brief interview. While that's a coveted position for a college student, I don't believe hill intern Paige would have been doing so much that she would have been exhaustively vetted for the job. 

I just can't buy the concept of someone training to apply for State Department internship not paying attention to the Washington Post, but then again, this person is also a potential State Department  intern who is completely ignorant of the basic facts surrounding WWII. Like Stan, she is whatever the writers need her to be. So it goes.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That's one of the consistent truths of S6, I think. Philip keeps trying to say that he's out because he retired, but of course he can't retire. It's not even like he's not working but still staying in the US under a false identity which is illegal too. Philip was working Kimmy all this time. He's been spying with Oleg (on his own people, but as we see with Oleg, it's still espionage) and once Elizabeth needed him--as we all know she would--he ran to Chicago, was involved in an op that killed multiple FBI agents and chopped up a body. Oh, and he also slept with Kimmy before he blew up that plot. Plus he just got caught in the park meeting with Father Andrei.

All of these things are more intense than Paige, the one who's ostensibly working as a spy now, even does herself. But to Philip, he's out. The Kimmy op alone would get him decades in prison if he wasn't traded, but he's trying to define himself as retired because he just means he's trying to avoid the stuff about the job he doesn't like. But to an FBI agent even the stuff he's okay with is totally NOT okay. In fact, it's funny, because what Philip really means by retired is that he's a more realistic enemy spy now, rather than the crazy TV version he's been for a while.

It can't help but remind me of the 00season finale of another show this season where a character decides to live a better life starting...now. Until something comes up and they have to do something awful again. After which they vow they're going to be better starting...now. There were always going to be assignments and things Philip did.

I understand why Phil says it. He's trying to not get shot, and he doesn't know that Stan is 100% convinced that Phil was involved in the Chicago killings. The inconceivable part is the statement helping to convince Stan to let them go. 

[spaceghostess]

On 5/31/2018 at 11:39 AM, Kokapetl said:

Train was filmed at Tuckahoe, if anyone wanted to know. 

Ha! I grew up in north Mt. Vernon, just a couple miles from Tuckahoe. Took the #8 bus from that very MetroNorth station to get to college in the Bronx (and the train from there to  my part-time job in White Plains) before I had a car. Loved that so much of this show was filmed around the Tri-state area.

I've been quiet on the forums this season, but have been enjoying (as usual) all the comments here. Still processing my very mixed feelings about the finale.

[SusanSunflower]

From what the writers have said, it occurred to me that "The Garage Scene" or  most of it could have been written (and honed)*  well before the plot-particulars of this final episode and, on reflection, tonally it's a bit off .... between the assassination  at the Summit and the recent Chicago fiasco, the FBI would have been on highest alert and adrenaline just dealing with that, and (finally convinced by Bannon), Stan would have likely been out-for-blood.  I'm not sure where suspicions about P&E would have fit in the local and regional priorities and allocation of man power and other resources ... particularly with Stan playing his suspicions so close to his vest.    Also, not to ignore the "unsolved" TeaCup murders**  (and the warehouse) and other odds-and-ends previously unconnected incidents. 

It takes time, even days, for thing like positive identification of Tatiana (and what ever that means operationally in terms of the investigation) to percolate down .... and, regardless, her killer (E.) was "on the loose" and I would imagine the Summit in chaos and the venue and city locked down "like a drum".   Not really the climate for two buddies -- no matter how close -- sharing a heart-to-heart on the down-low (Aderholt having been ditched).  

I find the ending disturbingly "relativistic" and amoral ... particularly with the havoc P&E left in their wake over the years and the lives harmed and disrupted by their actions (not even to mention ended) .... I was always disturbed by the Wheat Lab Murder ... what hell did that victims friends and associates go through during the investigation of that perplexing murder .... we can only hope these murders remain cold-cases and that no innocents have been tapped as "perp". 

Paige's "blurting out" impresses me as evidence of what a truly unprepared security risk she remained ... even in an obvious-to-anyone "code red" situation ...  All together now, STFU Paige.

* I am not arguing that it's not brilliant or Emmy worthy but that it could have been inserted in many contexts, particularly considering what is elided in this finale. 

** by my read, Stan "should" have been devastated and outrage wrt the TeaCups .... in front of their child ... and the FBI's abject failure to protect. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Eulipian 5k]

On 5/31/2018 at 1:27 AM, Umbelina said:

Once the USSR falls?  No one will care anyway. 

The KGB and its FSB modern day version will persist for decades to get a turncoat. They just did that with the poisonings in England; over a  decade after he was convicted in Russia.   .

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

On 5/30/2018 at 10:27 PM, Umbelina said:

Once the USSR falls?  No one will care anyway. 

The KGB and its FSB modern day version will persist for decades to get a turncoat. They just did that with the poisonings in England; over a  decade after he was convicted in Russia.   .

I agree.

I don't know where that quote from me came from or the context of it.

[sistermagpie]

On 5/31/2018 at 12:04 AM, Cardie said:

Erica's painting represented Elizabeth learning to see who she really is, and it looks like she really is the person who loved Gregory and didn't want to be a mother. She did eventually fall in love with Philip, too, but she doesn't care for him or the kids as intensely as Philip does for her and them. She's already getting into the idea of Act III of their lives in Russia.

This is from a while ago but I just saw it quoted a few posts up and it really struck me because I don't see where Elizabeth is already getting into Act III of their lives where Philip is not at all. I see exactly the opposite really strongly.

Their last two lines to each other imo follow the pattern they always take with each other and they both express the same uncertainty and resignation. Philip says, "It feels strange." So he's describing the feeling of starting this period of his life. It's strange being without the kids, being back in Russia, whatever. It's not negative, it's not positive. Neither optimistic nor pessimistic.

Elizabeth replies, "We'll get used to it" which they've said to each other many times. It's the motto by which their entire life has been lived.  Like Philip's line, it's not positive and it's not negative. Neither optimistic or pessimistic.

Both lines actually suggest the same attitude, imo. There's no suggestion that they're entitled to anything different or that it's unacceptable. It just is what it is. This is what they've got so they'll go forward with it.

I am absolutely not any expert on Chekhov, but that last scene between them is totally Chekhov. The characters did change in this case, but their change just made the conflict of their lives worse. Chekhov loved endings where you didn't know what happened to anyone. Like a needle suddenly taken off the record before the end.

But really it's only Philip and Elizabeth, to me, who feel like characters in a Chekhov play I think because with everyone else life *can't* go on as it did before. Only for those two, despite being the ones who've been sent halfway around the world, is there a sense of continuity. (Maybe also for Oleg's family--so the people back in the USSR.)

Quote

I understand why Phil says it. He's trying to not get shot, and he doesn't know that Stan is 100% convinced that Phil was involved in the Chicago killings. The inconceivable part is the statement helping to convince Stan to let them go. 

I actually wasn't just referring to him saying it to Stan but him saying it all season. He does see himself as having retired, having gotten out. But he totally hadn't.

Edited June 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[lencidoll]

Who else wondered if Paige would become a prostitute? Or, would she try to make it to Argentina to work with Pastor Tim? I can't imagine how she'd be able to get a real job after everything.

[SusanSunflower]

I'd love to watch her replace Mrs. Tim ...   very "All About Eve" 

I take it as a given she's prime dominant-male cult material ... doesn't even need to be obviously "alpha" ... we all noticed the Pastor Tim / David Koresh resemblance ... didn't we???

Edited June 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[MisterBluxom]

18 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

No, it was amazing! Absolutely flawless!

I respect your opinion for several reasons. For one thing, it seems to me that we have all loved watching this show. The experience has been like nothing else compares. This show is fairly clearly heads and shoulders above most every other TV show I've ever seen. It was a wonderful experience.

So, even if we have a serious disagreement about a minor scene here or there or about the writing in one episode or the acting in another, nothing seriously diminishes the overall experience that it seems we all shared. I have read most of your posts and gotten the idea that you may have originated in Russia or that you were raised there or lived there and so it's always been interesting for me to read what you have had to say.

Bottom line? Even if you do  not originate from Russia, I salute you, Comrade! And I wish you well in your travels from here on.

Do you know a good Russian phrase that might be equivalent to "Live Long and Prosper"? Heh Heh.

Edited June 3, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

It's sad  they lost  their kids, and surely two people at Matthew's and Keri's ages couldn't  possibly  have  another child?

I’ve thought the same thing. It’s not too late. It’s highly likely to me that they’d have another kid. For a lot of reasons. It’s not an uncommon reaction to loss. They can have a family again- and Mischa could be there too.  It would be the chance to do it better without the lies, and for Elizabeth to fully appreciate what she had.  Not that this would replace Paige or Henry. 

[BW Manilowe]

9 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

It's sad  they lost  their kids, and surely two people at Matthew's and Keri's ages couldn't  possibly  have  another child?

As for Stan, he did say once he found it hard to trust his first wife when he was undercover. Renee won't last a year; he'll  spot her getting too close to the mail robot.

Keri had her 2 eldest kids, from her marriage, in 2007 (her eldest son) & 2011 (her daughter), when she was approximately 31 & 35 (she was born in March, 1976 per Wikipedia).

Sam, Keri & Matthew's real-life son, was born in May, 2016, when Keri was 40, & Matthew was 41, going on 42 (he was born in November, 1974 per Wikipedia).

I think Elizabeth & Philip were at least close to Keri & Matthew's real ages. If Matthew & Keri could have a biological child together in their very early 40's, I'd say it's not necessarily out of the realm of possibility for Elizabeth & Philip/Nadezhda & Mikhail (Misha).

But if they run into fertility issues, they might either wish they'd tried for another kid in the US, or they might somehow try to get the KGB to send them somewhere that's probably more advanced in treating couples with fertility issues than Soviet medicine might have been at the time (IVF should've been available then, but I don't know when it became available in the Soviet Union/Russia; the world's 1st IVF baby was born in England in 1978).

Edited June 4, 2018 by BW Manilowe
To fix spacing.

[Umbelina]

Show Elizabeth is 44 or 45.  She was born in 1943, and the show ends at the very end of 1987, almost 1988.

http://theamericans.wikia.com/wiki/Elizabeth_Jennings

Henry is 16.  Paige is 20.  Misha is around 26.  Philip is between 42 and 47, they only say he was born "the early 40's."
 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

But Paige knew she was the get-away driver from that "mission" at that warehouse .... she ostensibly / CRITICALLY did not know that 3 guards have been gunned down and killed (burglaries do not usually involve murder) ... so -- even a passing overheard mention (ain't it awful, 3 men dead -- or what a mystery -- who would burgle that warehouse???) or glanced at front page of the newspaper might have DESTROYED her (oh so ridiculous) naivete about "what mommy really does at work" aka "we don't kill people" ....

I don't know if "Russian Defectors Savagely Murdered in front of Infant Son" managed to stay off the front page ... I'm guessing that story would have been hard to contain .... (good thing Paige didn't know they were under Stan's protection)

I did wonder just this morning  --  given that P&E weren't even supposed to share their real names -- how Cooking and Reminiscing with Claudia fit in ..... and how Elizabeth and Phillip handled the Paige's quite reasonable curiosity about their Russian past-lives .... where were you born? stuff. 

I doubt that the warehouse murders, as horrifying as they were, would be front page news in the D.C. area on the eve of the summit. I'm making an assumption of course, that the Post and the other big DC paper - would use the front page to focus on national events, rather than local. The multiple murder aspect would put it ahead of the "routine" murder stories, but I think it would still be on the inside pages.

As for avoiding the news in common areas - Paige has an apartment, and is established as a loner. I doubt she spent much time in common areas, and again, I don't believe the warehouse deaths would  have been given a lot of broadcast time given, again, the summit. CNN did at that time, I believe, had half hour "Headline News" segments - but I don't believe they covered local news. Which the warehouse would have been, imo.

But beyond that - I managed a deliberate complete news black out just a few years earlier due to recovery from some anxiety issues. It is pretty easy to do, if you really didn't want to see or hear the news back in the day. These days with social media, nearly impossible.

1 hour ago, lencidoll said:

Who else wondered if Paige would become a prostitute? Or, would she try to make it to Argentina to work with Pastor Tim? I can't imagine how she'd be able to get a real job after everything.

Huh? I'm kind of curious where that comes from. It seems out of left field to me, but maybe I'm not connecting the same dots.

[SusanSunflower]

You are not a 20 year old college-student undercover KGB agent living in Washington DC at the time of a major summit .... kind of makes a difference .... some might even call it situational awareness.  

My 80 year old father didn't follow the news ... on the day of the Rodney King Verdict he was just trying to get home from the health food store when he was blocked by a large angry mob of African Americans ... having no idea what this was about, he angrily told them to get the f*ck out of his way .... it wasn't pretty .... he only told me about it months later and I realized he was the man I had read about ... whose windshield was broken and who escaped with minor injuries ....   ( I still marvel thinking about how terrifying it must have been for  him ... but he wasn't one to talk)   ....  

True that P*E didn't even bother to inform Paige of the bug-out plan.... but still ... that was dumb of them. 

Note this was in Venice, California where my father had lived for years ... he did not read the paper, listen to the radio or have a TV .... on principal. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

You are not a 20 year old college-student undercover KGB agent living in Washington DC at the time of a major summit .... kind of makes a difference .... some might even call it situational awareness.  

Right, but that's a slightly different question. There's the question of whether it's possible for someone to ignore the news, then the question of whether they should or would.

Actually, this kind of goes right back to the S6 premiere when the sailor walked away with Paige's fake ID. There was a lot of discussion about how terrible that was for her and a lot of the defenses were based on imagining a regular young woman in that situation where of course there was nothing dumb about it. Many women would have let the ID go to avoid a confrontation and that would be smart. It was only her being a spy at the time that gave her more responsibility.

But as the season went on that was pretty much the pattern with Paige. She basically never acted like someone who was a spy. Someone who felt at risk at all in the sense that a spy should.

6 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

True that P*E didn't even bother to inform Paige of the bug-out plan.... but still ... that was dumb of them. 

That's another example, imo. Maybe they never told her the plan, but this is someone who not only knows her parents are undercover Russian spies but is actively working as a spy herself. Her problems with the bug out plan were not even about not having her own signal that would send her somewhere (why on earth do you not just call her and tell her to meet you somewhere to avoid going to her apartment?) but clearly not understanding that a bug out could ever be a possibility.

That's not actually on her parents because besides the fact that she should understand it as a natural potential consequence of their situation (Martha got it!) we saw them discuss this possibility when Alice was threatening them. Back then she acted like it was crazy while her parents calmly said yes, this is a real possibility. Here she is years later having become an alleged spy and having having lessons about Russia actually is a real country that exists in the world and people are living there just like they live here...and she still acts like the idea's crazy. (I suspect she wouldn't even think it was as crazy to talk about moving to a Western country too--proving again how not Russian she is.)

So there's just really no part on the show where Paige acts like anybody in the situation she's actually in. And she's constantly surprised by things you'd assume she'd know without needing to be told.

26 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

1 hour ago, lencidoll said:

Who else wondered if Paige would become a prostitute? Or, would she try to make it to Argentina to work with Pastor Tim? I can't imagine how she'd be able to get a real job after everything.

Huh? I'm kind of curious where that comes from. It seems out of left field to me, but maybe I'm not connecting the same dots.

Yeah, she seems to be about as much on the verge of being a prostitute as Henry--which is nowhere near it.

[mattie0808]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

I just can't buy the concept of someone training to apply for State Department internship not paying attention to the Washington Post, but then again, this person is also a potential State Department  intern who is completely ignorant of the basic facts surrounding WWII. Like Stan, she is whatever the writers need her to be. So it goes.

Bannon, I may not sign on for the “all is lost” version of a take on The Americans either ;), BUT, I did want to back you up on this. I was a PoliSci major around 10 years after this episode takes place (I finished undergrad in 1996), not in DC, but in a different major US city...and every professor I ever had told us to read every paper we could get our hands on back then. One told us to subscribe to the (London-based) Financial Times in lieu of paying for other class text books. You can argue that Paige may not have been aware of what was on the “if it bleeds, it ledes” local TV news (though in DC, she should have been AT LEAST aware enough for a triple-homicide, lol), but yes, she should have been, top-to-bottom, at least able to fake more awareness than she had about anything. Ah well.

Edited June 4, 2018 by mattie0808

[SusanSunflower]

yes, I used "situational awareness" on purpose -- gasp -- because it was a major deficit in Paige's performance that night that led to the death of a security guard ... which she -- of course -- was spared any knowledge of  ...

As I said then, the man knocking on her window could have been a mugger or a rapist ... her mindset was that she had not "started her shift" ...  sitting alone in the car reading ... I guess Los Angeles / Santa Monica is "mean-streets" compared to Washington DC ... and that incident -- just might -- have led to some remedial education by Elizabeth about random busy-bodies and how to handle noxious and nosy police and security personnel  (driving away before they knock on your window would seem like a good idea) ... 

[Cardie]

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Not if it is going to be played as the ultimate, perhaps even noble choice of the personal over the political, and not as the tragic downfall of the character. 

I don't think Stan's choice is wholly noble or tragic. It is consistent with his character, which is all I require. This is a guy whose emotions overrun his responsibilities as an FBI agent all the time: executing Vlad, having the affair with Nina, blackmailing his own bosses to save Oleg. All that he needed to let them go was Philip being able to convince him that the friendship was real, that his lying to Stan was unavoidable, and that he may have been working against Stan's country but never wanted to betray Stan. As a model FBI agent, Stan is a dupe and a traitor. As Stan, he's his usual fucked up self. Heck, Javert lets Jean Valjean go in the end. Stan is less obsessed and Philip more morally compromised but this is still a trope I always thought possible (if not likely) as The Americans wrapped up.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, I used "situational awareness" on purpose -- gasp -- because it was a major deficit in Paige's performance that night that led to the death of a security guard ... which she -- of course -- was spared any knowledge of  ...

It's kind of cool that when you look back that incident they were telling us everything about Paige's spy career right in her first encounter.

Since her shift hasn't started she's totally unaware of anything going on around.

She gives the guy control of the situation and never tries to take it back. She just agrees to whatever he wants.

She has a good, long look at his nametag and makes two mistakes when trying to repeat it later.

Doesn't think to do anything about it but tell her mom.

She accepts her mother's reassurance that the guy having her ID is fine and she was great just to not blurt out that she was a spy.

It's like there's 5 separate tests here that she fails in her first spying scene--and that's after enough training that Elizabeth's put her on the street for other people to depend on--yikes.

At first I thought the story of the season might be her improving and learning but no, at the end the only movement is on the "accepting mom's reassurance" front when she yells at her about Jackson. In the garage scene she reacts to Stan the same way she reacted to the sailor. Philip and Elizabeth try to take control of the situation (in this case it's impossible because he knows) but Paige just keeps reflexively giving Stan whatever he wants. It's funny, really--doesn't she react to his telling her Soviet agents have killed a ton of people by saying, "Sorry!"

It's like she thought she was cool listening calmly to Stan's Thanksgiving speech and telling her Dad that she was "into it" when he wasn't, but the first time she's actually confronted with someone accusing her of Soviet crimes she does just what Elizabeth praised her for not doing with the sailor. She panics and confesses to crimes she herself didn't even commit.

Even her dad, who's had years of suffering because he didn't think he was helping people, actually is still plugged into the thing that made him do this for so long. He does want to help his country. Paige can't defend what they're doing at all even though a day earlier she was saying she couldn't even understand people who don't see the Truth.

[hellmouse]

37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

At first I thought the story of the season might be her improving and learning but no, at the end the only movement is on the "accepting mom's reassurance" front when she yells at her about Jackson. In the garage scene she reacts to Stan the same way she reacted to the sailor. Philip and Elizabeth try to take control of the situation (in this case it's impossible because he knows) but Paige just keeps reflexively giving Stan whatever he wants. It's funny, really--doesn't she react to his telling her Soviet agents have killed a ton of people by saying, "Sorry!"

It's like she thought she was cool listening calmly to Stan's Thanksgiving speech and telling her Dad that she was "into it" when he wasn't, but the first time she's actually confronted with someone accusing her of Soviet crimes she does just what Elizabeth praised her for not doing with the sailor. She panics and confesses to crimes she herself didn't even commit.

Even her dad, who's had years of suffering because he didn't think he was helping people, actually is still plugged into the thing that made him do this for so long. He does want to help his country. Paige can't defend what they're doing at all even though a day earlier she was saying she couldn't even understand people who don't see the Truth.

She did apologize! Even after he was asking about murders Soviet agents have committed over the past ten years! I wasn't sure if she was apologizing for the murders or apologizing that the murders made Stan feel upset, but either way, it's ridiculous. 

I was noticing in other episodes when Elizabeth is in fights and is grabbed in a choke hold, she uses her legs to help gain leverage and give herself a chance to get free. Pushing off against a wall, for example. But Paige just kind of crumples when Philip has her in a choke hold. She uses her arms, but not her legs at all. He's not even holding her that hard - if he had wanted to snap her neck he could have. I wish we'd gotten to see them talk about that, but I guess given how Paige didn't think too deeply about her spy training, she was unlikely to bring it up. 

[tennisgurl]

39 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

But Paige just kind of crumples when Philip has her in a choke hold. She uses her arms, but not her legs at all. He's not even holding her that hard - if he had wanted to snap her neck he could have.

Thats practically a metaphor for Paige in general. She gets all excited about some new cause or person to get behind, but when it gets hard, she crumbles. 

[hellmouse]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Thats practically a metaphor for Paige in general. She gets all excited about some new cause or person to get behind, but when it gets hard, she crumbles. 

Yes, and it reminds me of back in the very beginning of the show, when Elizabeth described Paige as "delicate somehow". At the time, I took that in as Elizabeth talking about her daughter but really saying something about herself. She had just said that Henry was like Philip, he could adapt to anything. So I thought, aha, the audience knows that Elizabeth isn't aware that Paige is like her and therefore that she herself is delicate in some way. 

But now, I think Elizabeth was right. Paige was delicate. Elizabeth herself is not delicate. Later, when she does start to think that Paige is like herself because she's strong and cares about social issues, Elizabeth seems to forget her original assessment, which IMO, was accurate. Paige has a fragility that neither of her parents have. 

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

She did apologize! Even after he was asking about murders Soviet agents have committed over the past ten years! I wasn't sure if she was apologizing for the murders or apologizing that the murders made Stan feel upset, but either way, it's ridiculous. 

It felt to me almost like she was just saying she was sorry for her whole involvement now that someone was actually mad about it. Like she was a kid doing something with the cool kids and then grandma comes in and they've broken her vase and she's really sorry--or like Henry when he got caught at the neighbor's house. He knows they must think badly of him now! But he's a good person! He didn't mean it!

This from someone who not long before swore she was in it for life and would never regret it--not like Dad (who couldn't even stop when he was retired when a real threat to the Motherland came up) who joined too young--and was ready to go off and apply for an internship at the State Department.

God, imagine what would have happened if she was actually put into the "big time spy" position Elizabeth imagined for her. She'd flip like a pancake the first time she got caught in the wrong office.

1 minute ago, hellmouse said:

Yes, and it reminds me of back in the very beginning of the show, when Elizabeth described Paige as "delicate somehow". At the time, I took that in as Elizabeth talking about her daughter but really saying something about herself. She had just said that Henry was like Philip, he could adapt to anything. So I thought, aha, the audience knows that Elizabeth isn't aware that Paige is like her and therefore that she herself is delicate in some way. 

But now, I think Elizabeth was right. Paige was delicate. Elizabeth herself is not delicate. Later, when she does start to think that Paige is like herself because she's strong and cares about social issues, Elizabeth seems to forget her original assessment, which IMO, was accurate. Paige has a fragility that neither of her parents have. 

Good catch! I remember that line well and I interpreted it the exact same way, that Elizabeth hated the fragility she sensed in herself and so was worried about it in Paige. But she obviously still saw that fragility because she kept protecting her from the harshest parts of the job and of her. Elizabeth really did want to have the Cause instead of relationships. Paige was hoping the Cause would give her relationships--make her feel safe and protected and connected to people. It's the last thing a spy career would ever do for her. Maybe she gets that in the garage because she's faced with someone who's truly angry about it. (She already had that second hand hearing about Jackson being sick and crying.)

Paige didn't need to get anywhere near the murders to cross her limit of bad things she would do. All season many (including me) had not understood how she was betraying her country without a second thought and it turned out...she probably hadn't had a first thought.

[Eulipian 5k]

5 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

I think Elizabeth & Philip were at least close to Keri & Matthew's real ages. If Matthew & Keri could have a biological child together in their very early 40's, I'd say it's not necessarily out of the realm of possibility for Elizabeth & Philip/Nadezhda & Mikhail (Misha).

Eggzactly! They (N&M) can because they (K&M) did!

[companionenvy]

Last comment on Paige and the warehouse murders: I still think it is important to remember that Paige wasn't a spy in the way that, say, Hans was a spy. They may have wound up in the same role, he had (presumably with some coaxing from the KGB), come more or less independently to ideological commitment to the cause - which included a fairly clear-eyed understanding of what spies did and what was at stake. Paige fell into the life because her parents were spies and it was psychologically easier for her to attach herself to their world view than to reject it. Some of that acceptance was predicated on lying to herself about the true nature of spying. So we can't say "Paige should have been keeping up with the news because she was a spy and that's what a spy would have done." Paige was a wildly atypical spy, and the psychological forces that got her into spying would have militated against wanting to be fully aware of what she was doing. I can imagine Paige, unconsciously but deliberately avoiding the paper the day after the warehouse murders precisely because she didn't want to know what had really happened.

6 hours ago, Cardie said:

I don't think Stan's choice is wholly noble or tragic. It is consistent with his character, which is all I require. This is a guy whose emotions overrun his responsibilities as an FBI agent all the time: executing Vlad, having the affair with Nina, blackmailing his own bosses to save Oleg. All that he needed to let them go was Philip being able to convince him that the friendship was real, that his lying to Stan was unavoidable, and that he may have been working against Stan's country but never wanted to betray Stan. As a model FBI agent, Stan is a dupe and a traitor. As Stan, he's his usual fucked up self. Heck, Javert lets Jean Valjean go in the end. Stan is less obsessed and Philip more morally compromised but this is still a trope I always thought possible (if not likely) as The Americans wrapped up.

I think you've nailed the logic of the writers. It is simply a step too far for me, and I don't see it as comparable to the other cases you mention.

Executing Vlad was blind rage, and while it was unconscionable and illegal, it did not involve any compromise of loyalties. 

Sleeping with Nina was immoral and against protocol, but he believed they were on the same side at the time, and wasn't deliberately compromising national security. Under duress he almost succumbs to blackmail, but doesn't. His willingness to break rules to try to save Nina comes from a justified sense (given that he doesn't realize Nina has turned triple-agent) that the FBI is doing something wrong in burning their asset.

Saving Oleg, likewise, comes from a justified sense that the FBI is in this case behaving in a profoundly immoral manner, taking advantage of Oleg's noblest act - an act that substantially helped them -- for the bare possibility of further gain. He also believes -- rightly -- that the FBI is grossly misreading Oleg's character in thinking his isolated act of treason against the USSR when he believes they were about to cross the line in a major way means that he would be willing to sell them out generally to save their own skin. So, likeliest outcome is that Oleg is going to get killed, and the FBI isn't going to get anything from him anyway. That isn't Stan's judgment call to make, of course, but it is a moral decision consistent with Stan's sense of his obligations to his country. To the extent that Stan is ultimately a parallel to Oleg, far more than to Philip, it also suggests that Stan himself is someone who, like Oleg, may be willing to step outside the rules when he thinks his government is in the wrong, but is ultimately committed to country.

Letting P&E go is a totally different matter. It is thoroughly at odds with American interests, and it is not a response to FBI malfeasance. There's nothing sketchy or morally compromising in the fact that the FBI very much wants to apprehend two serial killing spies. For Stan to be so thoroughly disillusioned with the US/FBI that he actually believes that there is no meaningful difference between the US and the USSR, or the FBI and the KGB, would be a departure for his character; Stan knows that the FBI can play dirty, but he sincerely (and, IMO, rightly) believes that the American way of life is inherently better than life under the current Russian regime. He respects and likes Adherholt, who is depicted as a decent guy. As recently as a few weeks ago, he was talking like a committed Cold Warrior, and as recently as five minutes before he steps into the garage, it was with fury at Philip's betrayal.

In addition, Stan letting them go requires him to buy into the self-serving claims of a known spy who has been lying to Stan for years. Stan might have to concede that he's the one who moved across from P&E, and that they did nothing to engineer that situation, but he has no real reason to believe that Philip actually viewed him as a friend, no reason to believe Philip and Elizabeth weren't passing intel on him over the years (as in fact they were, at times), and active knowledge that Philip is lying in claiming to have retired and not to have killed. We know that Philip actually had grown disenchanted with the cause and made a real attempt at getting out, to the extent that it was possible; Stan has no reason to believe any of this because Philip is saying exactly what a person would say if they know Stan and are trying to avoid getting themselves killed. 

When people find out their spouse has been cheating on them, they often leave them. Even if they loved them, and even if they have a home and family together. Stan finds out that his best friend is a KGB agent with blood on his hands, and we're supposed to believe he lets him go, even though doing so means acting thoroughly contrary to American interests in a way that is different, not only in degree but in kind from previous departures from company man behavior.

The only even partial justification would be if Stan had done it to serve the interest of preventing the coup, but as we've discussed, that isn't framed as his primary motivation, and makes little logical sense for multiple reasons. 

[BW Manilowe]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Show Elizabeth is 44 or 45.  She was born in 1943, and the show ends at the very end of 1987, almost 1988.

http://theamericans.wikia.com/wiki/Elizabeth_Jennings

Henry is 16.  Paige is 20.  Misha is around 26.  Philip is between 42 and 47, they only say he was born "the early 40's."
 

Thanks for the correction on Philip & Elizabeth's ages. I still believe a couple who are the more exact ages you quoted could conceive a biological child together, whether they did it "the old-fashioned way" or, using their own biological contributions to the conception process if at all possible, instead of donor material, with the assistance of IVF for the fertilization part & then (re?)implanting the embryo into Elizabeth's/Nadezhda's womb where it will hopefully continue to grow & thrive until it's safely delivered at the appropriate time.

Heck, if Janet Jackson & Brigitte Nielsen were/are apparently able to physically carry a baby at the ages of 50 & 54, respectively, then pregnancy can still occur for women that age, theoretically including Elizabeth/Nadezhda (& maybe even . I'm pretty sure I've also read about some "non-celebrity" women who've successfully carried babies in their 50's--but I think a lot of those cases were where a woman volunteered to be the gestational carrier for their daughter who had fertility issues.   

Photographic evidence exists on the internet which shows/seems to show both women (Janet & Brigitte) with fairly ample "baby bumps". Though I grant they could be/could have been wearing padding/those fake bellies that women wear to make themselves look pregnant when they aren't, & they're using/they used gestational carriers to do all the work involved through delivery, if not also IVF to help them with the conception.

As far as men go, it's also entirely possible Philip/Mikhail might not be "shooting blanks" as early in life as a female might in regards to conceiving a child. He might possibly be able to conceive a child, using the equipment he was born with, for even a few decades longer than Elizabeth/Nadezhda might be able to. Case in point:

Actor Tony Randall (probably best known as fussily neat photographer Felix Unger in the original TV version of The Odd Couple) had 2 children--a daughter & a son--with his 2nd wife. He & his 1st wife, who were married from 1938 until she died from cancer in 1992--about 54 years--never had children together (not that people needed 1, but no explanation was ever given publicly for their lack of children... just an FYI).

He married his 2nd wife, an intern with his theatre company, in 1995. He was 75, she was 25. Their daughter, Julia, was born in 1997, when Randall was 77; their son, Jefferson, was born the next year, when Randall was 78. Granted, there was a 50-year age difference between them (she was much younger), which I assume had at least a little something to do with their ability to conceive not just once, but twice (& I'm very sure their children were conceived with biological contributions from each of them--a sperm donor, at least, wasn't used; I remember both pregnancies made a reasonable amount of news. Particularly in light of the fact that, for whatever reason, Randall never had children--biological or adopted--during his 1st marriage). Their marriage lasted until Randall's death, in 2004, from pneumonia contracted after heart surgery performed in late 2003.

[BW Manilowe]

Once back in Moscow, do you think they'd still use their American identities or would they resume their original USSR names?

[kokapetl]

16 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, I was thinking ruefully that the closing music should have been Streisand singing "People" ....  yes, it's 1964, but it's also "timeless" 

 

 But she’s not cheap, is she?

[kokapetl]

11 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The KGB and its FSB modern day version will persist for decades to get a turncoat. They just did that with the poisonings in England; over a  decade after he was convicted in Russia.   .

But wasn’t that poloniumed person also being a nuisance to the KGB at the time of the poisoning?

[mwell345]

1 hour ago, Kokapetl said:

yes, I was thinking ruefully that the closing music should have been Streisand singing "People" ....  yes, it's 1964, but it's also "timeless" 

I was hoping for "Back in the USSR". : )