S13.E23: Let the Good Times Roll

[Binns]

I didn’t take it as surprise but anger that Michael wasn’t vacating. But can’t Dean boot him out at will? Trying to remember back to season 5 with Samifer. Because when Gadreel was “in” Sam he kept telling Dean to be careful, if Sam knew he would kick him out...does that not work with archangels? 

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, BoxManLocke said:

Having him out of SPN is a huge victory. But the writers shouldn't be praised for finally taking out the trash they willingly let out to rot for everybody else's displeasure.

Especially when they basically replaced one pain in the ass archangel with another one who's equally annoying.

1 minute ago, Binns said:

I didn’t take it as surprise but anger that Michael wasn’t vacating. But can’t Dean boot him out at will? Trying to remember back to season 5 with Samifer. Because when Gadreel was “in” Sam he kept telling Dean to be careful, if Sam knew he would kick him out...does that not work with archangels? 

But like with Gadreel, the human host has to be strong enough to oust the angel.  And I'm assuming that at least for now, Michael is keeping Dean pretty well locked down.

[BoxManLocke]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Especially when they basically replaced one pain in the ass archangel with another one who's equally annoying.

 

Believe me I hate archangels and angels as much a you do, I wish they left years ago, but I don't find Michael annoying, he's just... there. We know next to nothing about him and there's room to build something acceptable here, especially when the heaven dying storyline is still a factor.
I would have had more of an issue with OG Michael because there's all this baggage about family and duty that we've been over a hundred times, but for this new Michael they can build something completely new, and that so much better than Lucifer in my book.

[BabySpinach]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Especially when they basically replaced one pain in the ass archangel with another one who's equally annoying.

But like with Gadreel, the human host has to be strong enough to oust the angel.  And I'm assuming that at least for now, Michael is keeping Dean pretty well locked down.

Except that this archangel is being played by Jensen Ackles, and I have complete faith in him.

[Binns]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Especially when they basically replaced one pain in the ass archangel with another one who's equally annoying.

But like with Gadreel, the human host has to be strong enough to oust the angel.  And I'm assuming that at least for now, Michael is keeping Dean pretty well locked down.

That makes sense. Dean is a tough cookie though. Michael is in for a fight. Michael also seemed to be...I don’t know if remorseful is the right word but he admitted he made mistakes in AW. And the precipitating factor for the apocalypse there was Michael v Lucifer. In our world that apocalypse didn’t happen. Maybe he won’t be quite as much of a dick. Also there’s the angel issue to be sorted out and heaven. There’s a few interesting ways the story could go. Color me happy to see JA spread his wings in a new role. 

[trxr4kids]

34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So what do we call him? MiDean?

Mean, duh! lol

[BabySpinach]

2 minutes ago, Binns said:

That makes sense. Dean is a tough cookie though. Michael is in for a fight. Michael also seemed to be...I don’t know if remorseful is the right word but he admitted he made mistakes in AW. And the precipitating factor for the apocalypse there was Michael v Lucifer. In our world that apocalypse didn’t happen. Maybe he won’t be quite as much of a dick. Also there’s the angel issue to be sorted out and heaven. There’s a few interesting ways the story could go. Color me happy to see JA spread his wings in a new role. 

Ha, I see what you did there...

[ZennyKenny]

So I guess you could say Lucifer got canceled TWICE HAHAHA ok sorry I'll show myself out

[Binns]

2 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Ha, I see what you did there...

Legitimately was confused what you meant then I read my post again. GROAN! 

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I can't believe it! They actually killed Lucifer!! I was QUITE wrong about that; I thought for sure that Lucifer would still be standing at the end of this episode.

(He really is dead, isn't he? Please let him be really dead and never coming back!)

First among the things I liked about the episode: not just that Lucifer is dead, but that one of his biggest mistakes, the thing that really opened Jack's eyes, was not some grand gesture that went wrong, but the pathetic nastiness of him not being able to resist killing an innocent young girl, just for the pleasure of crushing her skull and getting her blood on his hands. I mean, he could have handled Maggie catching sight of him in so many ways, but he could not resist acting as the ugly, petty monster he really was.

Second, Maggie! I know no one else cares about her, but I was so happy to see Maggie from "Bring "Em Back Alive", with her braided hair and baseball bat, getting on the bus in the last episode to go through the rift. And then I was like -- oh no, she's dead! But then -- hooray, she's alive again! Ha! I would not mind having her come back next season.

Third, so glad that Bobby and Mary were basically not an important part of this episode. The show works much better without them, in my opinion. If they have to be around next season, I hope they are always off somewhere else investigating something and never on screen.

Lastly, I loved seeing Dean with angelic powers! That's another thing I did not believe would ever happen.  And what do you mean he was not heroic? He saved ME --  from having to watch Lucifer on my show any more!!  :-) Seriously, though, I do think Dean is a hero. I very much enjoyed seeing him take charge and be a leader in this episode. And I am looking forward to seeing what Jensen does with this role. I think Michael may not have things all his own way. I know Michael has subjugated an entire world, but he has never had to handle Dean Winchester before!

Hear hear! I totally think Dean was heroic. We all knew, and I'm sure inside Dean knew, that Michael probably wouldn't honour a deal, but he had to try. And I'm also glad that Sam played a part in ending Lucifer - they did it together. I do wish Dean had been able to beat Lucifer down a little more first, but he still gave them the opportunity to do it, and landed the killing blow. And the bolded is the truest part of all.

Edited May 18, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

A few random additions to what everyone has already said:

1.  I also hated that they made this about "save Sammy" again.  Yes, there was also Jack and Lucifer was absolutely a threat, but he didn't declare that he was going to destroy the world until *after* they left the bunker.  Dean wasn't there to hear that, but he *did* hear Michael brag that he was going to remake the world (in his own image?) and whoops, maybe this time he'd get it right.  Except we have no idea what his idea of "right" is, so I'd have been more wary.  Except, well, Sammy.  *sigh* 

2.  Seriously, did they have to make Dean so stupid that he actually believed that Michael would vacate?  And to whom?  The only other vessels nearby were Sam and Jack, and I'm guessing that wouldn't make Dean (or them) happy.  He can't just pick a random human--even regular angels explode those who aren't vessel-ready, and very few are archangel class.

3. I don't know about having a human evict an archangel.  I imagine (or at least hope) they'll have some major arguments about it (can't you see Dean arguing with himself and jerking his body around, like, "we're going here.  No, I want to go here!  No, I'm in charge!  You're not the boss of me...") :)

4. IA the flying was cheesy.  Maybe if, instead of slowing the action, they'd speeded it up so we wouldn't see all the awkward turns and random hanging in the air?  Make it more like hawks swooping on prey, almost too fast to see until they come together.  

5. I really, *really* hate to bring this up, especially now when everyone is celebrating, but I think it's extremely likely that Luci will be back.  After all, as others have noted, he was filled with nephilim grace, so there's a good possibility that a "plain" archangel blade wouldn't kill him.  Did anyone notice that his wing burn was glittery instead of charcoal?  That might be nephilim grace regenerating.  I'd suggest we all enjoy the summer believing he's gone for good, but be prepared to have him show up again next year (after all, they still need an archangel to get rid of Michael, unless Jack refills and gets better at fighting.  But then he'll be fighting Dean's meatsuit and wouldn't want to hurt it (I assume).)

6. We still have to deal with heaven being empty and hell being leaderless.  I would guess the endgame (say, series finale) would be Michael repopulating and ruling heaven, Luci ruling hell, and both staying the hell out of human affairs, and the boys retiring to the beach, but I don't think any of my guesses have been right yet, so... :)

[Bergamot]

Another thing I liked in the episode, was the part where Jack went into a rage and almost killed that poor convenience store clerk. Finally! -- Jack being something other than pure and sweet and innocent, and hurting someone wrongly and not by accident. It made me think that maybe there is hope for the character after all. (As a side note, I also have to admit that it was kind of charming how excited Jack was at the thought of being out among the stars with a lightsaber -- "like Star Wars"!)

The problem though is that if Jack's grace does regenerate completely, he is already more powerful than any angel that ever existed, including Lucifer and Michael -- and he is basically still a baby.  And if they pray to him, he can be there instantly to save them. The writers are going to have to come up with a lot of excuses as to why the good guys are ever going to be in any real danger when they have Jack on their side. I know it's a problem the show has faced before, but it is unfortunately not a problem it has been able to handle very well.

One thing I was wondering -- if Jack is more powerful than Michael, and Michael knows this, will Michael avoid confronting him? Maybe that is why Michael goes for a walk at the end of the episode instead of immediately declaring himself ruler of the world; maybe he is hiding from Jack for the time being, until he figures out what to do about him.
 

[S Cook Productions]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

A few random additions to what everyone has already said:

1.  I also hated that they made this about "save Sammy" again.  Yes, there was also Jack and Lucifer was absolutely a threat, but he didn't declare that he was going to destroy the world until *after* they left the bunker.  Dean wasn't there to hear that, but he *did* hear Michael brag that he was going to remake the world (in his own image?) and whoops, maybe this time he'd get it right.  Except we have no idea what his idea of "right" is, so I'd have been more wary.  Except, well, Sammy.  *sigh* 

2.  Seriously, did they have to make Dean so stupid that he actually believed that Michael would vacate?  And to whom?  The only other vessels nearby were Sam and Jack, and I'm guessing that wouldn't make Dean (or them) happy.  He can't just pick a random human--even regular angels explode those who aren't vessel-ready, and very few are archangel class.

3. I don't know about having a human evict an archangel.  I imagine (or at least hope) they'll have some major arguments about it (can't you see Dean arguing with himself and jerking his body around, like, "we're going here.  No, I want to go here!  No, I'm in charge!  You're not the boss of me...") :)

4. IA the flying was cheesy.  Maybe if, instead of slowing the action, they'd speeded it up so we wouldn't see all the awkward turns and random hanging in the air?  Make it more like hawks swooping on prey, almost too fast to see until they come together.  

5. I really, *really* hate to bring this up, especially now when everyone is celebrating, but I think it's extremely likely that Luci will be back.  After all, as others have noted, he was filled with nephilim grace, so there's a good possibility that a "plain" archangel blade wouldn't kill him.  Did anyone notice that his wing burn was glittery instead of charcoal?  That might be nephilim grace regenerating.  I'd suggest we all enjoy the summer believing he's gone for good, but be prepared to have him show up again next year (after all, they still need an archangel to get rid of Michael, unless Jack refills and gets better at fighting.  But then he'll be fighting Dean's meatsuit and wouldn't want to hurt it (I assume).)

6. We still have to deal with heaven being empty and hell being leaderless.  I would guess the endgame (say, series finale) would be Michael repopulating and ruling heaven, Luci ruling hell, and both staying the hell out of human affairs, and the boys retiring to the beach, but I don't think any of my guesses have been right yet, so... :)

Your 5 and 6, yes. Loophole as Lucifer says. 

 

Ok so my take, as a whole I liked it a lot. I thought the first half was pretty run of the mill, but it definitely ramped up in the second half. I'm surprised they fit as much in pretty much the last 25 mins as they did. I think I kind of saw AU!Micheal!dean coming, so not too much of a surprise, but it was still satisfying. I'm looking forward to all the Cas and Sam and Jack angst that it going to happen next season lol.

I cannot believe they killed Lucifer! I never thought they would go there...but I do think your 5th point is a possibility.

oh, what was with AU!Michael knocking Cas out right away when he entered the bunker, and then Cas remained that way throughout the entire following Sam/Dean/Michael/Lucifer/Jack scene?? Upon a rewatch it seems that he actually fell into Dean and Dean had his hand on Unconscious Cas' back...I guess prompting Dean to understand the seriousness of the situation since Cas was no match for his brother and taken out so easily...and maybe prodded Sam into calling Jack?

[Res]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

A few random additions to what everyone has already said:

1.  I also hated that they made this about "save Sammy" again.  Yes, there was also Jack and Lucifer was absolutely a threat, but he didn't declare that he was going to destroy the world until *after* they left the bunker.  Dean wasn't there to hear that, but he *did* hear Michael brag that he was going to remake the world (in his own image?) and whoops, maybe this time he'd get it right.  Except we have no idea what his idea of "right" is, so I'd have been more wary.  Except, well, Sammy.  *sigh* 

2.  Seriously, did they have to make Dean so stupid that he actually believed that Michael would vacate?  And to whom?  The only other vessels nearby were Sam and Jack, and I'm guessing that wouldn't make Dean (or them) happy.  He can't just pick a random human--even regular angels explode those who aren't vessel-ready, and very few are archangel class.

3. I don't know about having a human evict an archangel.  I imagine (or at least hope) they'll have some major arguments about it (can't you see Dean arguing with himself and jerking his body around, like, "we're going here.  No, I want to go here!  No, I'm in charge!  You're not the boss of me...") :)

4. IA the flying was cheesy.  Maybe if, instead of slowing the action, they'd speeded it up so we wouldn't see all the awkward turns and random hanging in the air?  Make it more like hawks swooping on prey, almost too fast to see until they come together.  

5. I really, *really* hate to bring this up, especially now when everyone is celebrating, but I think it's extremely likely that Luci will be back.  After all, as others have noted, he was filled with nephilim grace, so there's a good possibility that a "plain" archangel blade wouldn't kill him.  Did anyone notice that his wing burn was glittery instead of charcoal?  That might be nephilim grace regenerating.  I'd suggest we all enjoy the summer believing he's gone for good, but be prepared to have him show up again next year (after all, they still need an archangel to get rid of Michael, unless Jack refills and gets better at fighting.  But then he'll be fighting Dean's meatsuit and wouldn't want to hurt it (I assume).)

6. We still have to deal with heaven being empty and hell being leaderless.  I would guess the endgame (say, series finale) would be Michael repopulating and ruling heaven, Luci ruling hell, and both staying the hell out of human affairs, and the boys retiring to the beach, but I don't think any of my guesses have been right yet, so... :)

ITA with most of this, especially #1 and I hate that they made Dean all about saving "Sammy" at the risk of the entire world. Also, as #1 points out, at the point where Dean said, "yes", he had no clue about Lucifer actually wanting to remake the world. He just had AU!Michael's guess on that so he wasn't on a "world-saving" mission. He was on a "Sammy!" saving mission and put the entire world at risk, knowing that Michael most likely wouldn't honor their deal. That IMHO is the opposite of heroic. It is very self-serving and selfish and I NEVER thought I'd say that about Dean but that is truly how I view that. 

I blame Dabb! And, sincerely, hope this new character Jensen is playing lasts as long as possible.

[Mulva]

Dean was quite the chump at the end.  He sounded genuinely surprised at Michael's sudden yet inevitable betrayal.  I wish Sam had been the one to end Lucifer.  The final scene was unintentionally hilarious.

[Res]

Also, I have no idea who thought it was a good idea to waste time in the finale on Mary and Bobby strolling in the woods. Seriously, WTF?! 

I definitely have NO interest in what happens to either of them and just wish they were anywhere, except on my TV chewing scenery. There were so very many other things they could've been showing instead.

[FlickChick]

I haven't finished reading all the comments, but I have to ask - why do so many believe that Lucifer is really, most sincerely dead? I mean, praise Chuck if he is, but I personally won't believe it until we go an entire season without seeing the character in any manner, shape or form. Sorry, I have NO FAITH that this isn't another "gotcha" moment in this show.

Now, I'll return to the comments.

[Res]

11 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I haven't finished reading all the comments, but I have to ask - why do so many believe that Lucifer is really, most sincerely dead? I mean, praise Chuck if he is, but I personally won't believe it until we go an entire season without seeing the character in any manner, shape or form. Sorry, I have NO FAITH that this isn't another "gotcha" moment in this show.

Now, I'll return to the comments.

I wouldn't believe it either. After all, Bobby has been most sincerely dead for years and yet he's there every season in one form or another. And now Charlie Sue is back so yeah . . . Death really doesn't matter except for the characters that I actually liked, like the actual Death!

Edited May 18, 2018 by Res

[ZennyKenny]

11 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I haven't finished reading all the comments, but I have to ask - why do so many believe that Lucifer is really, most sincerely dead? I mean, praise Chuck if he is, but I personally won't believe it until we go an entire season without seeing the character in any manner, shape or form. Sorry, I have NO FAITH that this isn't another "gotcha" moment in this show.

Now, I'll return to the comments.

Because of his charred wings. That's the only reason I'm daring to believe.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I have no problem with the way things played out at all.

That said, they left Dean unconscious on the ground while Sam killed Alistair all by himself. So yeah, they could've given Dean Lucifer.

I do like that they let Dean tell Michael he was his sword, and not just his vessel.

I more compare Sam's Alistair kill to Dean's YED kill. In Dean's YED kill Sam was on the ground out of earshot of the action also. I know Dean got an assist from John with the YED, but comparatively the YED was a main villain for much longer, so I think that balances that out. I look at this as more of Sam got to get rid of Lucifer the first time and now Dean did this time. Also Lucifer is a much bigger fish than Alistair was. Alistair and YED are more comparable.

Sam's still in a dry spell Big Bad wise, but Sam got an important assist - which is more than he's gotten in a long, long time, so there is that. (The BMoL might count if I actually considered them big bads... and if Sam hadn't actually, you know, joined them first... ugh - I hated that storyline so, so much.)

All in all this was much better for me than last year... Now if I can only get rid of the nagging feeling that somehow Sam's going to do something stupid.

39 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I also hated that they made this about "save Sammy" again.  Yes, there was also Jack and Lucifer was absolutely a threat, but he didn't declare that he was going to destroy the world until *after* they left the bunker.  Dean wasn't there to hear that, but he *did* hear Michael brag that he was going to remake the world (in his own image?) and whoops, maybe this time he'd get it right. 

But I think Michael also told Dean what Lucifer having the nephilim grace meant, what Lucifer likely could do with that power, and that Lucifer would be so strong that maybe even Michael in Dean might not be enough to stop him, so I think  Dean was well aware of the implications of Lucifer, and what a threat that Lucifer with Jack - from whom he could potentially get even more nephilim grace if he found a way to immobilize him somehow - would be.

24 minutes ago, Res said:

Also, as #1 points out, at the point where Dean said, "yes", he had no clue about Lucifer actually wanting to remake the world. He just had AU!Michael's guess on that

And the fact that it was Lucifer... who just stole his own son's grace. Is there even a question that Lucifer wouldn't do evil with that? Why else would he steal his own son's grace and say he didn't need him except for that grace? Dean had no reason to doubt that what Michael was saying about Lucifer's intentions was true. Dean had had plenty of experience knowing what Lucifer does and knowing Lucifer's general motivation.

14 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I haven't finished reading all the comments, but I have to ask - why do so many believe that Lucifer is really, most sincerely dead? I mean, praise Chuck if he is, but I personally won't believe it until we go an entire season without seeing the character in any manner, shape or form. Sorry, I have NO FAITH that this isn't another "gotcha" moment in this show.

We saw wings. I'm pretty sure he's dead... But we also know that "dead" for angels means in the empty, so that doesn't mean that Jack - who we know dreams about his regrets, since that was covered in this episode - won't accidentally wake Lucifer up in The Empty like he did Castiel. And if The Empty goo guy thought Castiel was annoying... whoo boy. Hope he likes "Stairway to Heaven" and "Camptown Races."

But seriously, I think he's dead, and if he does return, it's going to be a while. Jack's going to have to take a while to go from pissed off at Lucifer to regret for what could have been. And AU Michael is going to be enough to deal with for now.

Edited May 18, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

Yes guys, I saw the wings too. I still have no faith that Dabb who has a hard-on for the character (or perhaps Mark?), will have it be permanent. We'll see...

[gonzosgirrl]

Man, it's no wonder the Dean haters have such an easy time of it when his fans spell it all out for them. LOL!

He just watch Lucifer lose it, and tell Jack just what he was all about. Then proceeded to cut his own son's throat to attain his powers. I think everybody knew he wasn't just going to ride off into the sunset. And of course Dean knew Michael probably wouldn't keep his word, but Dean did what he does - dealt with the problem in front of him. I don't think for a moment that curse at the end was surprise (except maybe surprise it took so long for him to renege). It was anger. He was heroic. That's my take on it anyway, and I'm not going to spend the summer looking for ways to diminish it.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But I think Michael also told Dean what Lucifer having the nephilim grace meant, what Lucifer likely could do with that power, and that Lucifer would be so strong that maybe even Michael in Dean might not be enough to stop him, so I think  Dean was well aware of the implications of Lucifer, and what a threat that Lucifer with Jack - from whom he could potentially get even more nephilim grace if he found a way to immobilize him somehow - would be.

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It's not like Dean hadn't had plenty of experience knowing what Lucifer does and knowing Lucifer's general motivation.

I'm going by Dean's face when he saw Sam disappear.  That wasn't a "have to save the world from Evil" face, that was "OMG, Sam's gone.  What am I gonna do?" face.  Dean already knew how powerful nephilim grace was, but Lucifer has been screwing around with the world for, what, 8 seasons now?  And even without being supercharged, he was the only archangel left and could have done a lot of damage but instead was just being petty.  I don't think the *driving* force was stop Lucifer at that point, though it was definitely in the background. YMMV.

 

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

We saw wings. I'm pretty sure he's dead...

Gabriel had charred wings, too (both the first time and the second time.)  If they can retcon that (after an 8-year absence) they can retcon anything. :)

On a separate note, did I miss something about Mary and Bobby before the AU?  I was under the impression that OW Bobby first met the Winchesters after Mary was dead (he helped train John, I think) but Mary seemed to recognize Bobby?  

Also, did anyone catch Bobby's comment about "that Apprentice guy" being the president?  That implies that they still had television (and that the worlds were pretty similar) up till then.  Boy, things must have gone downhill fast!

[SueB]

This was actually simultaneously "big" and "intimate" in my opinion.  And I liked that. Initial thoughts:

Great Dyamics between various 'pairs':
Lucifer/Jack - what young person doesn't want to go roam the galaxy with a lightsaber?! I can't blame him for thinking that running away was a good idea.  I was so VERY grateful that Jack never bought ANY of Lucifer's lines.  Jack didn't pick up on all the lies but he was never going to follow where Lucifer was heading.  I liked that.  And DAMN, but Lucifer's scream when he realized he lost Jack -- now that was scary.  And despite Luci brushing it off and moving on without Jack, I think Jack's rejection would have been enough to fuel him into a global meltdown out of spite.  Lucifer really lack motivation these last couple of years and that pain, well that was good motivation -- the kind Lucifer was familiar with.  

Dean/Jack - Talking through the nightmares -- that was so well handled.  He could commiserate with Jack but he also made it clear he was not trying to minimize what Jack was experiencing.  I'm going to have to watch that scene again because I think Dean's discussion with Jack is one of those that will stick with him for a lifetime (or... you know...'ever' ... depending on Nephilim lifespan).  But my favorite moment of the episode was honestly Dean shooting him in the back to get his attention.  And Jack was shocked at first but not remotely pissed -- because Dean had a good point.  I REALLY like their dynamic.

Sam/Dean - Oh how I love these guys.  Dean bringing up Sam's desire to have a permanent "win".  And the Beach/Hawaiian Shirt 'perfect vacation'?  I liked that he included Cas in that too.  I think both Sam and Dean love Cas very much but he's also just 'fun' to introduce to the world.  

TFW 2.0 - I loved watching the dynamic.  Between the werewolf and their instinctive approach on dealing with the two Big Bads, I just thought they all acted very quickly and with confidence in each other.  I liked that a great deal. 

Individual moments:
Sam - It never would have occurred to me to have him pray to Jack, and yet it worked. And saved them all from a certain death at the hands of AU Michael.  Of courrse I knew he was going to sacrifice himself for Jack.  He has such faith in others -- it's always been Sam's strength.  And I'm glad Jack instinctively understood that while he (Jack) may regain powers eventually, Sam has experience beating the Devil.  Yay for the assist on the final Lucifer kill as well.  Now it'll be up to Sam to lead TFW 2.0 into getting Dean back.  

Dean - Dean was in full-on hero mode the entire episode. Good conversations wtih everyone, making that split-second decision with the Holy Oil.  And pulling out the Michael sword option -- and yes, I think he used those words on purpose -- he was appealing to Michael's ego.  I think he knew it wasn't going to end well (with Michael) but he wasn't going to think that far ahead.  There was no time - Lucifer was going to kill both Sam and Jack right away.  And Lucifer, with Jack's power and his jet-fuelled rage -- he was the clear and present danger that had to be addressed right away.  Dean has always been tactically brilliant, even if it means that he only has a temporary victory, he put down a major series Big Bad and Sam and Jack are alive.  Dean, even if he knew Michael betrayed him, IMO, would make that trade again -- and count on Sam help him kick Michael out of his body eventually.  Live to fight another day.  They could do nothing with everyone dead.

Cas - Cas was pretty much a big ball of pain at the end.  He knew it would end with betrayal but he knew there was no stopping Dean.  I feel for the guy.  I have great hopes that he will be instrumental in recovering Dean eventually.

Jack - he really needs a good therapist.  I adore the little cinnamon roll but he's inhereted some of his father's rage issues.  But if there was any doubt about him being a Winchester, it was put to bed (IMO) when he went for the self-sacrifice.  Most heart-breaking moment: when he repeated Kelly's "I love you" with the same inflection as he was starting to stab himself. *sob*

Other bits:
- So AUMichael appears to be buckets of crazy with his plan to kill all the people to stop the sinning.  Good luck with sorting that mess out Dean.  I hope we see that battle in S14. 
- Nope on the air-battle.  You need an Avenger-size budget to make it work and our little show didn't have it.  Frankly, with the mad skillz Pellegrino and Ackles have, a regular fist fight would have been better.
- I didn't mind the "Thriller" camera look.  But I must admit, it took me out of the episode a bit -- it felt "Jensen" more than "Michael.  
- I'm not sold on Mary/Bobby but I liked their walk in the rain.
- Yay Maggie lives!

Finally:
He's DEAD.  All afternoon the writers have been hashtagging #saltandburn and a part of me wondered if that meant Lucifer would most sincerely die.  And I hope they dismember the body, put it through a woodchipper, mix the mush with salt and gasoline, set it on fire, and then take the ashes and spread them across the globe.  Cause damn.  I don't want Lucifer coming back.  He served his purpose.  And Pelligrino had a good final episode.  Let move on.

Bottom Line: I'll be watching this multiple times.  But mostly for the character moments, not the splashy wing-show or action sequences.  I think it was an excellent wrap of S13 (not overly complicated, but hit all the highlights).  Looking forward to S14.  

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Man, it's no wonder the Dean haters have such an easy time of it when his fans spell it all out for them. LOL!

He just watch Lucifer lose it, and tell Jack just what he was all about. Then proceeded to cut his own son's throat to attain his powers. I think everybody knew he wasn't just going to ride off into the sunset. And of course Dean knew Michael probably wouldn't keep his word, but Dean did what he does - dealt with the problem in front of him. I don't think for a moment that curse at the end was surprise (except maybe surprise it took so long for him to renege). It was anger. He was heroic. That's my take on it anyway, and I'm not going to spend the summer looking for ways to diminish it.

I'm not hating, or suggesting anyone else should.  Complaining about bad writing doesn't mean I dislike the character. :)  

And I always think Dean is heroic--I just wish they'd show it a little more instead of downplaying, undermining or stepping around it.  

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Man, it's no wonder the Dean haters have such an easy time of it when his fans spell it all out for them. LOL!

He just watch Lucifer lose it, and tell Jack just what he was all about. Then proceeded to cut his own son's throat to attain his powers. I think everybody knew he wasn't just going to ride off into the sunset. And of course Dean knew Michael probably wouldn't keep his word, but Dean did what he does - dealt with the problem in front of him. I don't think for a moment that curse at the end was surprise (except maybe surprise it took so long for him to renege). It was anger. He was heroic. That's my take on it anyway, and I'm not going to spend the summer looking for ways to diminish it.

I entirely agree with this.

Dean was pretty much "Kill Lucifer! What part of 'because he's evil!' do you people not get?" before he was witness to everything you just mentioned. I can't see how after seeing all of the above that Dean wouldn't be sure that Lucifer with Jack's powerful grace would mean an evil plot against the world somehow. I repeat: it's Lucifer.

[Bergamot]

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hear hear! I totally think Dean was heroic.

Thanks Gonzosgirrl! :-)

 

22 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But I think Michael also told Dean what Lucifer having the nephilim grace meant, what Lucifer likely could do with that power, and that Lucifer would be so strong that maybe even Michael in Dean might not be enough to stop him, so I think  Dean was well aware of the implications of Lucifer, and what a threat that Lucifer with Jack - from whom he could potentially get even more nephilim grace if he found a way to immobilize him somehow - would be.

Yes, I do think the clear intent in the episode was to show that Lucifer, once he had Jack's grace, was now the greatest threat in existence to the world, and I think that Dean was perfectly aware of this. I don't think he had to overhear a statement of Lucifer's intentions in order to know what was coming (and personally I would think it really strange and kind of stupid if he decided not to act until he did hear it.) Lucifer was going to destroy humanity, and Dean had to stop him. Maybe there could have been another way to do this, but maybe not. I think the intent was to show Dean being typically Dean-like in his actions -- brave, impulsive, and self-sacrificing, and yes, protective of his family. Not perfect, not always right, too reckless, but the opposite of selfish.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

31 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was anger. He was heroic.

This^

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I think the intent was to show Dean being typically Dean-like in his actions -- brave, impulsive, and self-sacrificing, and yes, protective of his family. Not perfect, not always right, too reckless, but the opposite of selfish.

As Sam would say... he pulled a Dean Winchester.

[devlin]

40 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Man, it's no wonder the Dean haters have such an easy time of it when his fans spell it all out for them. LOL!

He just watch Lucifer lose it, and tell Jack just what he was all about. Then proceeded to cut his own son's throat to attain his powers. I think everybody knew he wasn't just going to ride off into the sunset. And of course Dean knew Michael probably wouldn't keep his word, but Dean did what he does - dealt with the problem in front of him. I don't think for a moment that curse at the end was surprise (except maybe surprise it took so long for him to renege). It was anger. He was heroic. That's my take on it anyway, and I'm not going to spend the summer looking for ways to diminish it.

Thankyou!!!!!!!I couldn't agree more

[BoxManLocke]

I love how casual Bobby and Mary are about leaving the alternate human race be wiped out because the main actors of the resistance traveled to another world.

 

"Heh, I guess I'll just stay here. Now how about a relaxing stroll in the woods, my dear ?"

[devlin]

Those couple of seconds when Michael took control in the chapel and he looked around and said thanks for suit has me very excited for next season. I can't wait to see what Jensen is going to do with this character.  I just hope this isn't another rendition of demon dean and only lasts for three measly episodes.

[Castiels Cat]

I liked how everything seemed great until it wasn't. I got a Blue Velvet vibe except instead of finding an ear they found blood and a body.

Stunned they went with AU Michael because I did not think Dean could be that reckless.  He knows what that archangel is capable of... Save Sammy is Defcon one and Dean gas been to he'll and back... He already lost him once... still...  NOOO.

Okay. I did speculate that Lucifer wanted Jack for his power and even foresaw the possibility of him stealing his grace.  I did not really think much beyond that point however so I did not see a fifth act hail Mary maneuver for Lucifer to go mad Gonzo nuclear.

Not did I forsee Samsel in distress again which was perhaps short sighted of me.  Always consider Samsel in distress 

And I never never never Saw Dean making that deal. Not AU Michael.  But Save Sammy does make Dean desperate and crazy. Still. No no no. Bad idea. So bad.

They really rushed the ending and the production sucked which was disappointing.  A few more minutes... guys... WTF!

Funny that I was right about the broad strokes... but could not see it being AU Michael. 

Definitely knew it was going to be Dean!Michael for two seasons . Nailed the heroic tragic fall/tragic flaw stuff.. and what a Big tragic fail this was making thst deal with AU Michael.  Very bad judgement Dean.  You just sold the entire world for your brother.

Nailed that Dean would kill lucifer.  Thank goodness too.Good job Dean. No more Lucifer A+

Nailed anger management issues for Jack.  I love that he told Dam he loved him and then committed suicide.  OPT.  He is a mix of Dean, Sam and Gas.  Love him.

Alll of the mental health stuff tossed...  I guess Dean just needed Mary and Jack home... his family around him.  Dean needs his family and deconstructs without them.   And it was great Dean just took charge again.  Team Free Will rocked against the Werewolves.  The opposite of the vampire cave clusterFCK.

No crazy Michael yet... seems like he has to come out to play  to fix heaven. 

Worried about what AU Michael has  done to Dean.  Is he like Donnie inside. Is he alive.
Nice suit. Though.

Miss the rock and roll.

[BabySpinach]

9 minutes ago, devlin said:

Those couple of seconds when Michael took control in the chapel and he looked around and said thanks for suit has me very excited for next season. I can't wait to see what Jensen is going to do with this character.  I just hope this isn't another rendition of demon dean and only lasts for three measly episodes.

The only time I find a finale exciting is when the cliffhanger is directly connected to/driven by the two main characters. It seems like a no-brainer, but S12 did the opposite of that and left me rolling my eyes and mostly uninvested. Needless to say, I'm very excited (and apprehensive) for S14, and I sincerely hope they'll learn from Demon Dean's too-short reign this time.

[sarthaz]

Seriously, who is the fuckwit who approved that freeze-frame? How is it possible that anyone on staff thought that was a good idea?

[Bergamot]

11 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I love how casual Bobby and Mary are about leaving the alternate human race be wiped out because the main actors of the resistance traveled to another world.

 

"Heh, I guess I'll just stay here. Now how about a relaxing stroll in the woods, my dear ?"

Did I hear them say that Rowena and AU Charlie had gone on a road trip together? What a strange idea. I would not have thought they would get along or want to spend time together. I know Rowena pointed out to the original Charlie how alike they were in a lot of ways, but they were also very fundamentally different in their values and their attitudes toward life. I feel as if it is more likely they would get on each other's nerves, as we had seen before.

I admit I would not mind seeing Ketch again. I think it would be interesting if he ran into Michael and mistook him for Dean.

[BabySpinach]

2 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Seriously, who is the fuckwit who approved that freeze-frame? How is it possible that anyone on staff thought that was a good idea?

Ugh, yes. How hard would it have been for Michael to walk right past the camera and briefly flash his eyes blue with a sinister smirk? WTF

[sarthaz]

I hereby decree that "BuckLeming" will now be known as "Sardines and Strawberries" (just a bad combination)

 

2 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Ugh, yes. How hard would it have been for Michael to walk right past the camera and briefly flash his eyes blue with a sinister smirk? WTF

We don't even need the eyes. Do they think we forgot that Michael was in Dean? I just don't get it.

Edited May 18, 2018 by sarthaz

[takalotti]

Lucifer just handed his archangel blade over. Why didn't Jack, who is part archangel, at least try to stab Lucifer with it? 

 

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

4. IA the flying was cheesy.  Maybe if, instead of slowing the action, they'd speeded it up so we wouldn't see all the awkward turns and random hanging in the air?  Make it more like hawks swooping on prey, almost too fast to see until they come together.  

Absolutely. I know nothing about film making, but I can’t imagine it costs that much to speed up key bursts.

 

Poor Cas. He’s so sad because he knows the wrong angel is inside his boyfriend ?

[Castiels Cat]

43 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Thanks Gonzosgirrl! :-)

 

Yes, I do think the clear intent in the episode was to show that Lucifer, once he had Jack's grace, was now the greatest threat in existence to the world, and I think that Dean was perfectly aware of this. I don't think he had to overhear a statement of Lucifer's intentions in order to know what was coming (and personally I would think it really strange and kind of stupid if he decided not to act until he did hear it.) Lucifer was going to destroy humanity, and Dean had to stop him. Maybe there could have been another way to do this, but maybe not. I think the intent was to show Dean being typically Dean-like in his actions -- brave, impulsive, and self-sacrificing, and yes, protective of his family. Not perfect, not always right, too reckless, but the opposite of selfish.

There is always a Run Roh.  This time it is way worse than usually.  He was willing to take the risk just like Sam was wiling to use the BoTD.

I tbink this will be the last time.  I think tbere will be a big negative outcome to others and Dean will have redemption and personal growth. 

They appear to be structuring his storyline along the classic heroic tragic fall. He just fell big time.

He has done this reckless self sacrifice Save Sammy/ save world/ kill baddie  maneuver many times.  He has never knowingly risked the world to do so.  AU Michael stated purpose is to save humanity by killing them one by one.  And Dean just handed him his perfect weapon. This is the worst decision he had ever made.  So  this is the big tragic fall for Dean.  After the damage and the clean up comes self awareness , growth and redemption.

1 minute ago, takalotti said:

Lucifer just handed his archangel blade over. Why didn't Jack, who is part archangel, at least try to stab Lucifer with it? 

 

Absolutely. I know nothing about film making, but I can’t imagine it costs that much to speed up key bursts.

 

Poor Cas. He’s so sad because he knows the wrong angel is inside his boyfriend ?

He had no grace left.  No longer part archangel.

1 minute ago, takalotti said:

Lucifer just handed his archangel blade over. Why didn't Jack, who is part archangel, at least try to stab Lucifer with it? 

 

Absolutely. I know nothing about film making, but I can’t imagine it costs that much to speed up key bursts.

 

Poor Cas. He’s so sad because he knows the wrong angel is inside his boyfriend ?

I love this.  He is sad because Dean Made a very big boo boo and he failed to stop him.

[sarthaz]

Given how amazing the fight choreography has been recently, I still can't get over that laughable high-wire act. What the Hell?

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, sarthaz said:

Given how amazing the fight choreography has been recently, I still can't get over that laughable high-wire act. What the Hell?

Everything about the Dean!Michael scenes were bad. So rushed. Horribly edited. They were important. It was like they thought they were the least important scenes and had no time so they haphazardly cut a few frames in.

Cut out a bit of Mary and Bobby"s stroll.  Cut a bit of gawking at the dead body. Cut a bit of Pellegrino yapping.

It was unbelievable. So badly done.

And yes. Jensen is great.  Pellegrino must suck. They must not have had the footage.

9 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I hereby decree that "BuckLeming" will now be known as "Sardines and Strawberries" (just a bad combination)

 

We don't even need the eyes. Do they think we forgot that Michael was in Dean? I just don't get it.

Eh.  Homage to Demon Dean.

[sarthaz]

They should have ended the episode with Gabriel and Lucifer drinking mai tais in Hawaiian shirts on the beach.

GABRIEL: Can't believe those idiots think we're dead!

LUCIFER: Lolz, bro-ham. Let's leave flaming poop at the Heaven gate when we finish these drinks.

[Castiels Cat]

11 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Ugh, yes. How hard would it have been for Michael to walk right past the camera and briefly flash his eyes blue with a sinister smirk? WTF

Show him at a bespoke tailor getting fitted for the suit.  Would have been better than that hokey pokey scene.

[ZennyKenny]

Something unusual happened for me this episode, that hasn't happened in a long time; I got worried about someone dying! Normally I'm pretty "meh" about it. Gabriel died again? Meh, he'll be back.

 

But when Dean had a heartfelt moment with Jack about their nightmares, I was like "son of a bitch! they're going to kill off Jack!" Cos that's what they tend to do right before they kill off a character. So when Jack started stabbing himself to save Sam I legitimately thought they were ending the character and I was NOT OK.

 

So color me impressed that they actually got me to care about Jack so much that was was worried he was going to die.

[sarthaz]

Maybe the new spin-off is a rom-com with Not!Bobby and Mary?

NOT!BOBBY: Golly gee, Mary ... you're so dreamy I've already forgotten my entire fucking planet! [LAUGH TRACK]

MARY: That's sweet, Not!Bobby, but I worry you only like me because for the first time in two seasons, the producers gave me a cool jacket and let me look feminine instead of an army surplus reject.

NOT!BOBBY: Yeah, it does feel like a cheap setup. Besides, this show needs a geriatric romance like I need a hole in my head.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

This was actually simultaneously "big" and "intimate" in my opinion.  And I liked that. Initial thoughts:

Great Dyamics between various 'pairs':
Lucifer/Jack - what young person doesn't want to go roam the galaxy with a lightsaber?! I can't blame him for thinking that running away was a good idea.  I was so VERY grateful that Jack never bought ANY of Lucifer's lines.  Jack didn't pick up on all the lies but he was never going to follow where Lucifer was heading.  I liked that.  And DAMN, but Lucifer's scream when he realized he lost Jack -- now that was scary.  And despite Luci brushing it off and moving on without Jack, I think Jack's rejection would have been enough to fuel him into a global meltdown out of spite.  Lucifer really lack motivation these last couple of years and that pain, well that was good motivation -- the kind Lucifer was familiar with.  

Dean/Jack - Talking through the nightmares -- that was so well handled.  He could commiserate with Jack but he also made it clear he was not trying to minimize what Jack was experiencing.  I'm going to have to watch that scene again because I think Dean's discussion with Jack is one of those that will stick with him for a lifetime (or... you know...'ever' ... depending on Nephilim lifespan).  But my favorite moment of the episode was honestly Dean shooting him in the back to get his attention.  And Jack was shocked at first but not remotely pissed -- because Dean had a good point.  I REALLY like their dynamic.

Sam/Dean - Oh how I love these guys.  Dean bringing up Sam's desire to have a permanent "win".  And the Beach/Hawaiian Shirt 'perfect vacation'?  I liked that he included Cas in that too.  I think both Sam and Dean love Cas very much but he's also just 'fun' to introduce to the world.  

TFW 2.0 - I loved watching the dynamic.  Between the werewolf and their instinctive approach on dealing with the two Big Bads, I just thought they all acted very quickly and with confidence in each other.  I liked that a great deal. 

Individual moments:
Sam - It never would have occurred to me to have him pray to Jack, and yet it worked. And saved them all from a certain death at the hands of AU Michael.  Of courrse I knew he was going to sacrifice himself for Jack.  He has such faith in others -- it's always been Sam's strength.  And I'm glad Jack instinctively understood that while he (Jack) may regain powers eventually, Sam has experience beating the Devil.  Yay for the assist on the final Lucifer kill as well.  Now it'll be up to Sam to lead TFW 2.0 into getting Dean back.  

Dean - Dean was in full-on hero mode the entire episode. Good conversations wtih everyone, making that split-second decision with the Holy Oil.  And pulling out the Michael sword option -- and yes, I think he used those words on purpose -- he was appealing to Michael's ego.  I think he knew it wasn't going to end well (with Michael) but he wasn't going to think that far ahead.  There was no time - Lucifer was going to kill both Sam and Jack right away.  And Lucifer, with Jack's power and his jet-fuelled rage -- he was the clear and present danger that had to be addressed right away.  Dean has always been tactically brilliant, even if it means that he only has a temporary victory, he put down a major series Big Bad and Sam and Jack are alive.  Dean, even if he knew Michael betrayed him, IMO, would make that trade again -- and count on Sam help him kick Michael out of his body eventually.  Live to fight another day.  They could do nothing with everyone dead.

Cas - Cas was pretty much a big ball of pain at the end.  He knew it would end with betrayal but he knew there was no stopping Dean.  I feel for the guy.  I have great hopes that he will be instrumental in recovering Dean eventually.

Jack - he really needs a good therapist.  I adore the little cinnamon roll but he's inhereted some of his father's rage issues.  But if there was any doubt about him being a Winchester, it was put to bed (IMO) when he went for the self-sacrifice.  Most heart-breaking moment: when he repeated Kelly's "I love you" with the same inflection as he was starting to stab himself. *sob*

Other bits:
- So AUMichael appears to be buckets of crazy with his plan to kill all the people to stop the sinning.  Good luck with sorting that mess out Dean.  I hope we see that battle in S14. 
- Nope on the air-battle.  You need an Avenger-size budget to make it work and our little show didn't have it.  Frankly, with the mad skillz Pellegrino and Ackles have, a regular fist fight would have been better.
- I didn't mind the "Thriller" camera look.  But I must admit, it took me out of the episode a bit -- it felt "Jensen" more than "Michael.  
- I'm not sold on Mary/Bobby but I liked their walk in the rain.
- Yay Maggie lives!

Finally:
He's DEAD.  All afternoon the writers have been hashtagging #saltandburn and a part of me wondered if that meant Lucifer would most sincerely die.  And I hope they dismember the body, put it through a woodchipper, mix the mush with salt and gasoline, set it on fire, and then take the ashes and spread them across the globe.  Cause damn.  I don't want Lucifer coming back.  He served his purpose.  And Pelligrino had a good final episode.  Let move on.

Bottom Line: I'll be watching this multiple times.  But mostly for the character moments, not the splashy wing-show or action sequences.  I think it was an excellent wrap of S13 (not overly complicated, but hit all the highlights).  Looking forward to S14.  

They really went for Greek tragedy and nailed it.  

Dean was full on tragic hero.  We saw his tragic fall and he literally fell too like Icarus because he dared to think he had won.   Cas and the rest of us were the Greek chorus.  Yes.  It was classic Dean. It was also the worst reckless decision he has ever made. I did not tbink he would go there. AU Michael spelled it out for him and he still went there because save Sammy kicked in.

Why not the other Michael? Expediency... such a bad desperate idea.

He put the world at risk for save Sammy. And bad things are coming.  Now comes the fall.

Death etc., clean-up, redemption, growth.

I suspect afterwards Dean won't be so reckless or so eager to risk himself.

I agree with apmost everything you said.

TFW 2.0 I think that is a function of Dean being whole again.  It was off all season because he was off without Mary.   We saw it at its nadir in rthe vampire cave debacle.  The werewolf hunt was a thing of beauty. Night and day.  Sam and Cas and Jack  and Mary and Bobby... ugh and Charlie... yuk... and Ketch and Rowena ALL gave to step up because TFW is wobbly without Dean.

Jack has so much of Dean, Sam and Cas in him. Three fathers and he has taken the best from each of them.

I was verklempt at many Jack moments.

They wasted Dean!Michael.  Rushed and badly edited.  I think pellegrino must not be able to fight.  We know Jensen can.  Why  else was it so badly done.  Horrible.

I do not think Jack will heal. I think Lucifer took it all.  I could be wrong.  Luci was always interested in the power.

I knew Lucifer would die.  JUST KILL HIM NOW.dean's words in Exodus.

[BoxManLocke]

3 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Did I hear them say that Rowena and AU Charlie had gone on a road trip together? What a strange idea. I would not have thought they would get along or want to spend time together. I know Rowena pointed out to the original Charlie how alike they were in a lot of ways, but they were also very fundamentally different in their values and their attitudes toward life. I feel as if it is more likely they would get on each other's nerves, as we had seen before.

I admit I would not mind seeing Ketch again. I think it would be interesting if he ran into Michael and mistook him for Dean.

 

Oh God I wasn"t following what they said during their stroll, I was too appalled at the stupidity of it all. And I found the very beginning of the ep to be very difficult to follow. Took me a while to adjust.

 

Sounds like Dabb is just writing his cute little fanfiction in his mind. Oh, Rowena got Charlie killed, but wouldn't it be just swell if they ended up friends ? Ugh.

 

I hope there's a time jump before the premiere and most of the refugees have scattered. Maggie can stay though, because like Jack, she is a cutie pie, and also because she's actually new, and new blood is what the show needs.

[Casseiopeia]

So what now?  Is Dean going to lay waste to the planet?  Where are they going with this?  I know it's Michael but is Dean going to watch it all happen?  What is that going to do to him?  This is the last thing Dean's psyche needed.

 

I'm sorry but that fight in the church was just awful editing.  It has been a problem for 2 years now.

On 5/17/2018 at 10:24 PM, BoxManLocke said:

 

Oh God I wasn"t following what they said during their stroll, I was too appalled at the stupidity of it all. And I found the very beginning of the ep to be very difficult to follow. Took me a while to adjust.

 

Sounds like Dabb is just writing his cute little fanfiction in his mind. Oh, Rowena got Charlie killed, but wouldn't it be just swell if they ended up friends ? Ugh.

 

I hope there's a time jump before the premiere and most of the refugees have scattered. Maggie can stay though, because like Jack, she is a cutie pie, and also because she's actually new, and new blood is what the show needs.

I love that "most of the refugees have settled in town".  Really?  Did they all get jobs at Walmart?  How are they paying rent?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I entirely agree with this.

Dean was pretty much "Kill Lucifer! What part of 'because he's evil!' do you people not get?" before he was witness to everything you just mentioned. I can't see how after seeing all of the above that Dean wouldn't be sure that Lucifer with Jack's powerful grace would mean an evil plot against the world somehow. I repeat: it's Lucifer.

IMO Dean allowing AU Michael to use him as a vessel is his tragic fall moment the equivalent to Sam using the BotD to remove the Mark of Cain from Dean.  

Brother saving Brother using a method that they know will have a downside.  

In Dean's case he was also ridding the world of a great evil and he didn't have a season long arc of progressively going dark...  Dean went progressively depressed and despondent which fuels his reckless decision making and losingv Sam two  episodes ago did not help...

 But still not a great decision in the long run...