S06.E09: Jennings, Elizabeth

[jjj]

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, it was a cyanide gas gun in the newspaper.

Thank you for this confirmation.  I have been saying poison dart device tow the past two episodes, but posters have said they were trying to stab him (including the recap). It made no sense, because you can't stab someone in public with people around and expect to get it done.  And shooting attracts too much attention.*  But poison, by the time they figure it out, will have the attacker off the scene. 

(*Except when Elizabeth shoots Tatiana, which again, don't get me started.) 

[Totale]

10 hours ago, Trillian said:

Passing secret notes isn’t per se a crime. If they decode the note it may or may not say anything incriminating (or it could be the recipe for Zharkoye - these people know their code words).  I guess he knows the identity of the illegals, but the lawyer in me asks how they could prove that, assuming that itself is a crime. He’s not guilty of spying on the US; at most, they can prove with the note that he’s spying on the Soviet Union. 

I was thinking Mama's secret chocolate chip recipe rather than Zharkoye, but otherwise I'm with you 100%.  Is it illegal for a Russian national to pick up a stick?  What's to prove he knew what was inside?   

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, jjj said:

Gaad always had someone above him -- I assume Wolf is that person now (for Aderholt).  Not head of the whole FBI, but of a division in which Aderholt/Gaad serves as head of a unit. 

 

Usually the uber-boss character we see is the unnamed deputy attorney general. I assume Wolfe doesn't have that position, since he's still "Agent Wolfe," but you must be right that he's some other figure who's above the head of Counterintelligence in the hierarchy. I tried to find an org chart online to see who that might be, but they scrambled the layout of everything after 9/11, so I can't find one that's period appropriate.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, jjj said:

Yes, Pastor Tim would have been in some shit himself, for not revealing what he knew years ago.  I saw that conversation entirely as Pastor Tim protecting himself, from the FBI as well as the KGB. 

Indeed he would.

6 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Granny has merely accepted her fate. Because of E's actions, her side lost anyway.

 

  They do get rid of Gorbachev in a few years, but yes, her side lost communism, which has now been replaced by a very corrupt government, and the Mafia.  Many say they are the same thing.  So, by today's standards, they definitely lost the war, but win the battle of deposing Gorbachev a few years later.

6 hours ago, teddysmom said:

 

I'm interested in how they're going to bring the Renee story in for the last episode. Wouldn't it have been THE BEST if the blonde shooter had been her?  "Guess I don't have to worry about long boring lunches with Renee anymore". 

They can't possibly all make it out alive, can they? 

I would have DETESTED that.  Yes, I think Renee is KGB, and I think we will get a small reveal of that in the closing montage of the finale.  Yes, I think the writers chose that wig to make us think it might be Renee as assassin.

I really doubt the show will end without signifcant major characters dying.

5 hours ago, scrb said:

So Tatiana, who's pretty much been portrayed as a house cat, was going to shiv a man out in the street?

I mean it's an efficient way to wrap up her character but kind of hard to believe.

Tatiana is a VERY elevated KGB Officer.  She was about to be made the first female Resident a few years ago.  Of course she's had training, and would certainly know how to use a cyanide gun.  Would they use her?  Probably not, but what options did the writers have, we don't know anyone else in the Residentura now.

4 hours ago, jjj said:

 

Let me add how ridiculous the Tatiana killing was.  She was clearly still alive but dying, and they did nothing to help her or run for help.  One diplomat reached down and felt her coat sleeve like he was checking for a pulse.  On the coat sleeve.  Meanwhile, she was taking a while to die.  There were a bunch of people around, and no one acting at all on her behalf. 

It was seconds.  If I'm not mistaken it didn't even have sound.  She obviously was trying to kill one of them.  They saw the gas gun, they saw the wig.  By-standers stopped and looked, the men spotted Elizabeth walking away.  They are not spies.  I think a few seconds of shock, contemplating how close they just came to death, and inability to act were normal.  No cell phones back then to call an ambulance either. 

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It seemed that the Russian group realized that she was there to do them harm and that she was in disguise. Plus, they probably know what that poison dart device was and how CLOSE they came to biting the dust.  I think I might have taken cover, in case there was a backup assassin around the corner.  Any way those guys might have recognized Tatianna? 

Maybe, but doubtful.  Everyone in Russia doesn't know everyone else.  The Americans?  Seriously doubtful.

4 hours ago, Plums said:

I thought she was dead pretty instantly, but now I have to go back and rewatch to see, cause I wasn't paying too much attention tbh.

I actually think everyone's bemused reactions are one of the most realistic things the show has ever depicted from civilians. No one sees or hears Liz shoot her, she's basically just there and gone in a flash, and then this random woman in a wig just falls down dead at their feet. She was shot in the back and lands on her back, so it's not immediately discernible that someone has just murdered her. She didn't have a normal gun for people to freak out about. So everyone is just totally caught off guard and don't really know what to make of this very random thing that just happened. We aren't with them long enough to see them figure out exactly what's happened, which I'm sure would have been like, in half a minute.  

Answered above, but yes, she wasn't quite dead yet.

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Maybe I'm weird, but whenever I've been in the presence of somebody who has suddenly collapsed, which has happened to me a few times, I've always said something like "Are you all right?" or "Can you hear me?", as a means of determining conciousness or breathing.

Again, she JUST tried to kill one of them.  It was mere seconds.

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Recognize him now?

I couldn't get Chris Taub out of my mind when he showed up at the FBI on The Americans.  I'm glad he's gone.

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I love this “you pitiful bitch” look that Claudia gave Elizabeth. 

I expected more fireworks in the final scenes between these two, but honestly?  It all worked well for me.

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

I think that was a fitting end to the Tatiana story.

Once again her operation is screwed by Oleg.

Indeed.  I loved Tatiana though.  As others have said, I wish they hadn't abandoned the Residentura for wheat fields last year.  :~(

29 minutes ago, Totale said:

I was thinking Mama's secret chocolate chip recipe rather than Zharkoye, but otherwise I'm with you 100%.  Is it illegal for a Russian national to pick up a stick?  What's to prove he knew what was inside?   

Sticks, rocks, fake dog turds, and all kinds of other things were used at dead drops.  The FBI and KGB both used them.

They would just open the stick.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Umbelina

[dubbel zout]

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

4 hours ago, jjj said:

Let me add how ridiculous the Tatiana killing was.  She was clearly still alive but dying, and they did nothing to help her or run for help.  One diplomat reached down and felt her coat sleeve like he was checking for a pulse.  On the coat sleeve.  Meanwhile, she was taking a while to die.  There were a bunch of people around, and no one acting at all on her behalf. 

It was seconds.  If I'm not mistaken it didn't even have sound.  She obviously was trying to kill one of them.  They saw the gas gun, they say the wig.  By-standers stopped and looked, the men spotted Elizabeth walking away.  They are not spies.  I think a few seconds of shock, contemplating how close they just came to death, and inability to act were normal.  No cell phones back then to call an ambulance either. 

That was also a dramatic choice, and I liked it a lot.

[J-Man]

Did they explain how Elizabeth knew that Tatiana herself was planning to take out Nesterenko (and when?) I was a little confused when all of that went down. Presumable Oleg could've passed along the information that she was involved, but that still doesn't explain how she would've known about the specifics. 

Oh, Claudia -- who pissed in your ukha?

Aderholt: "Elizabeth and Philip Jennings are not Russian spies!"

I'm calling it now - Aderholt is Gregory's long-lost half brother and is a double agent! 

[Ina123]

2 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Did they explain how Elizabeth knew that Tatiana herself was planning to take out Nesterenko (and when?) I was a little confused when all of that went down. Presumable Oleg could've passed along the information that she was involved, but that still doesn't explain how she would've known about the specifics. 

She didn t know where or when. She was just following and watching and waiting for it.

[KarenX]

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I never watched House. He reminds me of a tv character, but I can’t figure out who. A Ferengi?

He looks like Michael Scott in The Office a little, but to me he looks mostly like Tony Shalhoub in Men in Black.

Edited May 24, 2018 by KarenX
To add visuals

[Umbelina]

He wasn't a "minor" character on House.  Oh, and for any that never watched that series?  Do.  It was fantastic, Hugh Laurie is amazing.

[Helena Dax]

Wow, that was intense. I can't believe they're on the run!

When I saw Pastor Tim, I thought he was going to talk. Like some part of him had been waiting for that call for years. But he didn't. I get he was trying to cover his own ass, but it surprised me anyway.

Oleg's the best. He doesn't deserve to end up in prison.

The writing of Paige has been the biggest -and I'd say only- mistake in this show. I understand why she found out the truth: it helped to add a lot of tension to the plot and gave us some memorable scenes. (I almost died when she called Pastor Tim and told him about her parents). So in that sense, yes, it worked. But as a story itself, Paige comes across as completely, hopeless dumb. Now she realises spying includes sex? Wow, maybe in a couple of years she'll realise her parents have been murdering people too. C'mon, Paige, you can do it!

[SusanSunflower]

Peter Jacobson is a well respected actor .... he was in 96 episodes of House ... although I first became aware of his awesome chameleon qualities as he played, usually, the defense attorney on L&O, often legally outmaneuvering / outwitting / out grandstanding McCoy back in early 2000's  (He's constantly working because he's "that good", a lot of more recent L&O:SVU, which I don't watch) 

[Erin9]

The tragedy of Oleg is that he was so close. He’d just picked up the biggest and last bit of information he needed. Then he was done. But, the FBI just HAD to show up and ruin everything. Ugh. So close. 

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, Orbert said:

Speaking of Agent Wolf, wasn't he the new boss after Gaad "retired" three years ago?  I remember at least one joke about him being a "munchkin" but maybe it was someone else.  Then this season it took me a minute to realize that Aderholt is the boss now, and I think this is the first time we've seen Wolf since then.  But now he's just a regular agent since Aderholt is the boss.  Or am I totally messed up here?

When Stan came to ask him to get a beer, Aderholt mumbled something and I took it to be an explanation of why he was in Wolf's office, but I also at first thought Aderholt had been promoted to the position Gaad and then Wolf had held. Need to rewatch that scene.

[EtheltoTillie]

25 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He wasn't a "minor" character on House.  Oh, and for any that never watched that series?  Do.  It was fantastic, Hugh Laurie is amazing.

I said he was a major character on House and a minor character on The Americans.

[jjj]

1 minute ago, RedHawk said:

When Stan came to ask him to get a beer, Aderholt mumbled something and I took it to be an explanation of why he was in Wolf's office, but I also at first thought Aderholt had been promoted to the position Gaad and then Wolf had held. Need to rewatch that scene.

Aderholt is in the former Gaad office.  Wolf was never in that office as a resident, as far as I can recall.  Wolf and his predecessor were above Gaad and above Aderholt, in some other office.  They are like the deans, and Gaad/Aderholt is the department chair.  

[jrlr]

13 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Peter Jacobson is a well respected actor .... he was in 96 episodes of House ... although I first became aware of his awesome chameleon qualities as he played, usually, the defense attorney on L&O, often legally outmaneuvering / outwitting / out grandstanding McCoy back in early 2000's  (He's constantly working because he's "that good", a lot of more recent L&O:SVU, which I don't watch) 

Was he the schlubby lawyer who McCoy et al seriously underestimated at first?

[Dev F]

18 minutes ago, jjj said:

Aderholt is in the former Gaad office.  Wolf was never in that office as a resident, as far as I can recall.  Wolf and his predecessor were above Gaad and above Aderholt, in some other office.  They are like the deans, and Gaad/Aderholt is the department chair.  

Before this year, Wolfe was definitely in Gaad's old office; he just wasn't as prominent a character as Gaad was. Aderholt didn't become head of the department until after the time jump at the beginning of this season.

Whatever Wolfe's new position is, it must have some pretty serious pull across the whole Bureau. I just remembered that last episode, when Renee finds out that she has an interview with the FBI's personnel office, Stan replied, "Dennis said he spoke to Wolfe, but I didn't think it would happen this fast."

Based on an old FBI org chart that I finally tracked down in a book from 1982, I'm guessing that Agent Wolfe's new job is "Executive Assistant Director -- Investigations," which would place him above the heads of the Counterintelligence Division and the Criminal Investigations Division, reporting directly to FBI director Webster, his old benefactor.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Dev F

[jjj]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

Before this year, Wolfe was definitely in Gaad's old office; he just wasn't as prominent a character as Gaad was. Aderholt didn't become head of the department until after the time jump at the beginning of this season.

Whatever Wolfe's new position is, it must have some pretty serious pull across the whole Bureau. I just remembered that last episode, when Renee finds out that she has an interview with the FBI's personnel office, Stan replied, "Dennis said he spoke to Wolfe, but I didn't think it would happen this fast."

Based on an old FBI org chart that I finally tracked down in a book from 1982, I'm guessing that Agent Wolfe's new job is "Executive Assistant Director -- Investigations," which would place him above the heads of the Counterintelligence Division and the Criminal Investigations Division, reporting directly to FBI director Webster, his old benefactor.

Thank you, and sorry!  I blanked out on the post-Gaad period.  

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

The priest isn't a trained KGB Officer, he just helps them out.  He was an idiot, but that doesn't surprise me, given who he is.

 

IIRC when Gabriel was leaving there was a brief discussion with Philip that Father Andrei was an informant but not well trained yet. He was sort of left hanging for Philip to pick up and Philip had no time to work with him. The first time he met with Philip (in the hospital when Philip was in disguise) I think he told Philip Gabriel had left "equipment" that he didn't know how to work. More scenes I need to rewatch.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I just want to add that having Paige be upset about Elizabeth's honeytrapping doesn't strike me as odd at all.  It's difficult enough for most kids/people to picture their parents having sex, let alone boning randoms, especially randoms that are your age.  Aside from that?  Paige was pissed that Elizabeth, yet again, after all they have been through?  LYING to her.  Again.  Some more.  Kid is being a KGB trainee for her, and her mother is STILL lying.

Discussing Paige's reaction to her mother's honey-trapping and the pyschological repercussions of contemplating her parents' sex lives in general, I'm surprised no one has recalled the time Paige walked in on Liz and Phil engaged in a classic "69" sex act. She seemed traumatized by that! It was quite surprising to the audience as well!

Edited May 24, 2018 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, renatae said:

Here's my Pollyanna wish for the outcome. If they get caught, I hope the family defects to the U. S. and receives protection. There is probably a snowflake's chance in hell that Elizabeth would go for this, but maybe she's so disillusioned by Claudia's lies she will go for it, finally realizing her family is more important than her misconceptions about what her country stands for.

Elizabeth wouldn't hold the USSR responsible for Claudia's lies to the point of defecting to the US. She knows the USSR also has people like Philip and Nasterenko.

17 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I agree 100%. I can't imagine the continuous mentioning of her means nothing after all this. Maybe it'll just be a little tag at the end that spells eventual doom for Stan after everything goes down with Philip and Elizabeth, but I'd be shocked if it was nothing. It can't be.

I even think I saw Philip have a slight reaction when Stan mentioned it to him. 

Or it's just setting up Stan being too paranoid in future to be a husband anymore. Renee is sort of angling for them to be a US version of Philip and Elizabeth and...they're not.

17 hours ago, kikaha said:

I thought Stan tossed that comment out to see how Philip reacted.  Stan the cat threw out some cheese to Philip his mouse. 

But what, in Stan's view, would the cheese be? He's telling Philip that his wife wants to work at the FBI. What would reaction would that get out of a KGB spy? The only reason Philip personally would have a reaction would be because it would make her seem fishy to him again--so the opposite of what Stan would be thinking or expecting.

 

12 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

Question about the interrogation scene with the priest who was not Andrei: he’s about to name another Father when the knock on the door interrupts him. Is there meaning to that? Are we supposed to care about the loyalties of now a third priest? Father Renee?

I think the meaning was just that Andrei was the important name for the audience.

11 hours ago, Novel8 said:

So Paige gets upset about a boy that was seduced by her mother,but okay to beat up or possibly kill someone, like that sailor...though, she didn't kill him, but caused it.

Paige still doesn't know all that. She has no idea that sailor died.

10 hours ago, scartact said:

Sepinwall suggested that we should have seen Paige discovering what happened to Jackson and I kinda agree with that too. That would build at least that aspect of the narrative more tightly so that when Paige comes home to fight with Elizabeth, it feels less out of pocket. I did greatly enjoy that fight though and how it contrasted with Claudia (something of a surrogate mother) and Elizabeth interacted. I love how Elizabeth, so exhausted, just drops the defenses and owns up to it; I loved her scoff! It's like, Paige finds it A Big Deal and of course I'm sure it is and it feels gross but Liz all, "It didn't even matter, not even to your father." And this all coming from the heels of her interaction with Claudia, who basically called her a failure!

I thought about seeing the scene with Paige, but I'm glad we didn't see it. They've wasted too much time to already to devote a lot to Paige and her off-screen boyfriend hearing a story she's going to re-tell to her mother.

10 hours ago, JFParnell said:

Powerful scene in that cell between Stan and Oleg. When shown P&E's picture, Oleg shook his head slowly. Do we take that to mean, "No, it's not them" and he's protecting them, or was Oleg trying to communicate, "No, you didn't hear it from me, but yes"? I'd think the former, no? But I wondered about the latter.

Oleg would have no way of recognizing either of them. He's never seen Elizabeth and he's only seen Philip in disguise. Not that he was looking that closely to be sure. He wasn't giving anybody up.

10 hours ago, Plums said:

Her parents have always been very weird about sex with her, from when she was dating Matthew. I think it's part of the reason why she got so stuck on the idea of spies using sex.

Paige always misunderstands how they're weird about it, though. She starts dating someone and immediately asks if she should also inform on them--which you'd think she would obviously see is a problem. Like why are you even asking your parents that? When her parents tell her no, just date them if you want and don't poison it with spying Paige starts accusing them of telling her who to date. Which they didn't do.

I think she's fixated because this has always really been about her fascination with her parents' relationship. She thought the spying explained it, but it doesn't. In fact she just got even more confused in realizing that they can be so close and yet still sleep with other people. They're making sex more confusing for her by the minute.

10 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I may be mis-remembering but when Paige first started seeing the intern wasn't there a discussion where Paige at least hinted that she was willing to sleep with him for info? Wasn't that when E told her to sleep with him only if she cared about him but not for "work"? So, if I am remembering that scene correctly, wasn't Paige offering to do exactly what she accused her mother of...whoring?

Exactly--like I said above, Paige always has a weird logic about this. She doesn't understand that informing on someone you're sleeping with=sleeping with them for info.

 

9 hours ago, qtpye said:

Lord, for such a good spy Phillip, is a really bad salesman. It is like he saw a badly done used car commercial and was trying to emulate that. I actually think Elizabeth would be really good at sales and it is too bad she is not into that type of Capitalist bullshit.

 

I owe a little bit of an apology to Holly T. Can you imagine how much more interesting the past two seasons would have been if we had this version of Paige? She is challenging her mother and making E think about things that she does not want to think about. It would have been great moral dilemma..."What if you have a cause that you believe in with all your heart...does that justify doing horrible things for the greater good?" Holly T is better than I expected and it is obvious the only directional advise she has been getting is act like a doe-eyed dufus.

In the past Philip was better at being a travel agent than Elizabeth because Elizabeth thought everyone should leave the US. LOL. I think it's important to remember that what we're seeing with Philip isn't him being a bad salesman--he and Elizabeth are obviously both great manipulators. But now he's desperate and that's why he's terrible at it. Flop sweat. Can't fake it (well, unless you're Matthew Rhys who can act anything!)

We *have* seen this version of Paige plenty of times. Back in the first season even she was exactly this person when her parents separated. Holly Taylor is much better playing something obvious like anger than she is having to do subtle scenes where everything is internal. Paige was like this when she was yelling at Elizabeth about her bar fight as well. It's just that in this scene Paige actually had the upper hand because she was saying something true.

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Let me see if I ve got this - Paige is okay with Elizabeth killing people but sex is a step too far? Okay then. When she was going on and on about what a whore her mother is, I was really hoping that Elizabeth would tell her that Paige's precious daddy fucked plenty of women for the good of the mission too. Knowing that Philip married Martha and had sex with Kimmy (who is the same age as Paige) would blow her mind. I'm not necessarily saying that Paige needs to know all the details, but I was rolling my eyes at her tirade. It didn't surprise me though because she was always butting heads with Elizabeth before she joined the spy game and she tended to be a lot more lenient with Philip.

Paige is only more lenient with Philip when she's using him against her mother, like she was here. There's lots of times where she's currying Elizabeth's favor and dismissing Philip as useless. She's been sort of doing that all season. But now that she's mad at Mom she'll grab Dad to be self-righteous.

Elizabeth basically did tell Paige that Philip was the same when she said nobody cared about sex, including Philip. She made that point very specifically--and she's right to do so, imo. Maybe it's significant how Paige still doesn't a clear view of that side of her father. Elizabeth is so proud of being a badass she shows it off but Philip's always trying to be sweet to her. She's never seen him be violent or seduce anybody, probably doesn't imagine him being able to do it. (Despite having walked in on him having sex and his gentle but devastating sparring lesson).

2 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Discussing Paige's reaction to her mother's honey-trapping and the pyschological repercussions of contemplating her parents' sex lives in general, I'm surprised no one has recalled the time Paige walked in on Liz and Phil engaged in a classic "69" sex act. She seemed traumatized by that! It was quite surprising to the audience as well!

LOL--I was literally just writing about it when you posted.

8 hours ago, meira.hand said:

Several people here commented on this, but I do understand why it was needed. Philip's outlook has been very clear and consistent from day one. His main difficulty during recruitment was leaving the woman he loved but he was older, more mature and always had an open mind and self awareness. 

Elizabeth's outlook has been clear and consistent from day one as well, yet they've given us flashbacks and context to make it richer. Instead of just seeing this woman who has these values you see where they come from. That would be just as helpful with Philip so he's not just always a ghost reacting to things in the present.

What you've made up here is not on the show at all. Philip was not "older" or "more mature" during recruitment--he would have been recruited at the same age and maturity as Elizabeth. His "main difficulty" was not leaving the woman he loved. He went out with a girl who he was going to leave for a year for some unspecified thing and then she dumped him at some point before he met Elizabeth. We don't know what his self-awareness or mind was like at that time because we don't know him then. We've never gotten to see his relationship to his family then or now.

 

6 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

Re: Father Andrei - I always felt we were supposed to think tenderly of him, since he performed their ceremony, and they've indicated Elizabeth has been meeting with him in a way that was both for the Centre and maybe also for spiritual check-ins? (I'm not totally clear on that.) But is there a way to interpret his behavior this episode where he's not just a massive dummy? He waits until the end of the convo to mention his superior was going in for questioning that day and then is just like, 'why? is that important?' 

Philip saw him as clingy and needy at first meeting. It's nice that he basically stayed the same clueless guy who was the danger Philip thought he was then.

 

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Philip is good!  He knew just how to pace himself and then when to sprint.

I liked how he also started to run after ducking behind a person standing on the street to give himself that precious extra second of not being seen.

5 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

 Similarly, Phillip's nearly 6 year abdication of any/all responsibility for Paige and her training now seems unconscionable. He's not even aware of how little Paige knows or even how competent Paige is (or is not).  E.'s not likely to ever admit regrets, she'd rather eat the blue pill. But as Philip sees his entire family  "what he really lives for" thrown into such jeopardy, perhaps he will realize what a bad steward he was of them (as well as the travel agency) ...  Since I was wrong about E. realizing that her heroic career as a spy was mostly about honey-potting and assassinations in the course of 6 years of lying to Paige, I expect I will be wrong about some epiphany for Phillip in realizing that letting Elizabeth "have her way" as destroyed all he holds dear. 

Well, yeah, to an extent. But Paige wanted it. If the choice was between him training her into this life or not I don't think it's worse for him to now want to have a hand in it. He had no reason to think that Elizabeth wouldn't train her as well as he would. She's an excellent trainer usually.

 

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm not sure I can give Stan the benefit of the doubt. I don't get why he doesn't listen to what Oleg is saying and try to use it as a positive for the US., especially, when he learns of Tatianna.   Couldn't he use the info to make the Americans appear to be on top of things, saved the day, saved a Soviet diplomat and diverted a coup to foil the Summit? They don't have to bring Oleg into it at all.  But, Stan is acting like he's in a pissing contest.  I don't get it. 

Stan's suspicions about Philip might also be informing a lot of his emotions there. He's super angry at the Soviets not just because of all the murders but because he suspects he's being duped. If he can't trust Philip, why would he trust another Russian?

[Cardie]

3 hours ago, RedHawk said:

The one hanging thread I most want wrapped up is what was going on when Agent Gaad was murdered.

It seemed to me at the time that Arkady wondered whether Gaad would be ripe for recruitment by the KGB but his people made a ham-fisted approach, Gaad panicked and went through the glass door, cutting himself and bleeding to death. It was neither a mystery nor a murder, just a bungled operation.

[RedHawk]

1 minute ago, Cardie said:

It seemed to me at the time that Arkady wondered whether Gaad would be ripe for recruitment by the KGB but his people made a ham-fisted approach, Gaad panicked and went through the glass door, cutting himself and bleeding to death. It was neither a mystery nor a murder, just a bungled operation.

I see what you're saying and basically can buy that, but recruiters wouldn't show up acting like thugs, would they? Those guys were thuggish, not like smooth KGB agents.

To stay with this episode, just before Oleg was picked up, he was walking along and seemed happy. Then the cars pulled up. Devastating.

Edited May 24, 2018 by RedHawk

[EtheltoTillie]

I really appreciated Philip's ability to evade the pursuers because he had probably never done that maneuver before in real life.  Imagine the training that produces the ability to do that so that your instincts kick in even if you haven't drilled in that skill in years. 

[Umbelina]

The unforgivable thing that Claudia did to Elizabeth was LIE TO HER.

Then, a few scenes later, Paige warns Elizabeth not to LIE TO HER.

Elizabeth promptly does the same thing she couldn't forgive in Claudia, to her own daughter, after a warning.

[RedHawk]

Thinking more about Father Andrei, it's too bad that when Philip went on his "sabbatical" from work, he couldn't stay in touch with Father Andrei to gather his intel. That and working Kimmie would have been logical and yet not likely have involved him in the other "work". Since the Father was the one Philip trusted enough to ask him to marry him and Elizabeth in their true identities, you'd think he would have kept up a connection with him. That doesn't seem to be the case. I guess Elizabeth did work a bit with him, and he's just not that astute.

Edited May 24, 2018 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Cardie said:

It seemed to me at the time that Arkady wondered whether Gaad would be ripe for recruitment by the KGB but his people made a ham-fisted approach, Gaad panicked and went through the glass door, cutting himself and bleeding to death. It was neither a mystery nor a murder, just a bungled operation.

I don't think Arkady would have ever thought Gaad was ripe for recruitment. He knew the guy.

[Cardie]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think Arkady would have ever thought Gaad was ripe for recruitment. He knew the guy.

Perhaps he just wanted to forcibly debrief him but I know Arkady was very upset that Gaad had died. Whatever the reason for the KGB incursion, Gaad was no use to him dead and that death was an accident, not a willful murder.

I myself thought Gaad was really upset with how the Bureau treated him. Even knowing the guy, Arkady might suspect an approach could be fruitful.

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think Arkady would have ever thought Gaad was ripe for recruitment. He knew the guy.

Gaad had just been fired.

It's kind of SOP when trying to consider which person to attempt recruiting.  Anger at your employers?  HIGH.  In desperate debt?  HIGH.  Recently divorced?  Medium high.  Blackmailable?  VERY high.  Etc.

The KGB was just going to give it a shot, much like Stan and Aderholt approaching people last season.  Cold calls.

It went bad, Gaad died.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Umbelina

[Dev F]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think Arkady would have ever thought Gaad was ripe for recruitment. He knew the guy.

It's probably more that "Gaad has a volatile temper and was fired in disgrace" got passed up the chain of command, and someone else who didn't know Gaad thought he fit the profile for recruitment. After all, Arkady's response to the mission going bad was "An operation didn't go as planned. Maybe it never should have been planned in the first place."

Edited May 25, 2018 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Gaad had just been fired.

It's kind of SOP when trying to consider which person to attempt recruiting.  Anger at your employers?  HIGH.  In desperate debt?  HIGH.  Recently divorced?  Medium high.  Blackmailable?  VERY high.  Etc.

The KGB was just going to give it a shot, much like Stan and Aderholt approaching people last season.  Cold calls.

It went bad, Gaad died.

But I'm not sure that was Arkady was planned that, is what I'm saying. The KGB could totally have wanted to approach him, but I got the impression that when it went bad Arkady wasn't exactly surprised. Surprised he died, but I don't know, I just remembered from the way he performed his lines that it seemed like this was one of those times when Arkady never really thought it was a good idea rather than him regretting his own plan.

2 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It's probably more that "Gaad has a volatile temper and was fired in disgrace" got passed up the chain of command, and someone else who didn't know Gaad thought he fit the profile for recruitment. After all, Arkady's response to the mission going bad was "An operation didn't go as planned. Maybe it never should have been planned in the first place."

You said it better than I did. That's exactly what I was referring to.

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Gaad had just been fired.

It's kind of SOP when trying to consider which person to attempt recruiting.  Anger at your employers?  HIGH.  In desperate debt?  HIGH.  Recently divorced?  Medium high.  Blackmailable?  VERY high.  Etc.

The KGB was just going to give it a shot, much like Stan and Aderholt approaching people last season.  Cold calls.

It went bad, Gaad died.

I thought he was allowed to retire?  And was he deep in debt?  Not divorced at all, in fact apparently very much in love with his wife.  And I thought he was resigned about how he had to leave the FBI -- Martha was his employee, and he would have done the same thing.  

[Umbelina]

Oh I agree.  Those didn't even seem to be Arkady's people.  He knew about it, but I doubt he suggested it, and it certainly felt like he never thought it would work.  No one expected Gaad to die though.  Not Arkady, and not the break in team.

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh I agree.  Those didn't even seem to be Arkady's people.  He knew about it, but I doubt he suggested it, and it certainly felt like he never thought it would work.  No one expected Gaad to die though.  Not Arkady, and not the break in team.

Oh, I see!  I agree, those thugs seemed not at all like Arkady's people.  (I would not mind seeing Arkady in the finale!)  

[Umbelina]

Just now, jjj said:

I thought he was allowed to retire?  And was he deep in debt?  Not divorced at all, in fact apparently very much in love with his wife.  And I thought he was resigned about how he had to leave the FBI -- Martha was his employee, and he would have done the same thing.  

No, of course he was not divorced or in debt, those are other examples of people you would approach to use as an informer/agent as a spy.

"Being allowed to retire" is the same as fired. 

Recently divorced?  Stan (Nina triple agenting him)

Blackmail?  Larrick (gay)

Mad at "the system" (boss, ideology) The guy who got airplane models for the kid that killed his parents.

Broke, or just wanted more money?  The guy that was killed with too many shots at that house.  Mr. and Mrs. Teacup.

 

There are more, but all of those offer hope for a spy, and become targets for recruitment.

[sistermagpie]

I just remembered, thinking about Elizabeth confronting people and being confronted--like she accuses Claudia of lying to her and then continues lying to Paige. It was interesting how when Philip was talking to Father Andrei about how Elizabeth and his marriage she said that Elizabeth thought he'd broken some of his vows and when asked if he had Philip said yes. So Philip was agreeing that he'd betrayed her by working with Oleg as he had, he also apologized for it last week. So he was standing by his actions but also seeing himself as having betrayed her.

It just occurred to me that meanwhile Elizabeth had been pretty terrible to Philip all season and still hasn't really seen herself as doing anything wrong as a wife. She didn't apologize for trying to get him to kidnap Kimmy. She just assured him that she'd never need his help again after Chicago (no reason to think that would have been true--in fact she sent him right out to meet with Father Andre which turned out to be a major thing).

It's not that I think she ought to be groveling or anything but it just felt funny to me that again Philip was seeing himself as having not lived up to the vows him made while Elizabeth doesn't see herself as doing that as of yet. I know she hasn't spied on him but you'd think some of her actions might also count!

[Reneeiskgb]

I just finished watching it on dvr (hated having to wait).  Not sure if this has been addressed- What is preventing Philip from simply going home?  It's probably something obvious, but I don't get it.  He's changed his clothes and look, and he evaded the FBI, so what is the issue?

[MisterBluxom]

I'm surprised no one has tried to draw any parallel between Tatiana dying on the street and E's experience when she was younger with the comrade and horse dying.

I'm not sure what parallel can be drawn. But I would guess there may well be something there.

Edited May 25, 2018 by MissBluxom

[SusanSunflower]

It's not in Elizabeth's nature to examine things and not 3 episodes ago (or so) everyone agreed that E. was on a losing streak where everything she touched seemed to go bad or turn to shit.   

Solution:  Blame others. 

Personally, I think it makes her a "dull girl" and less intelligent appearing, however it's been a fairly consistent character trait from season to season unfortunately.  Rather like watching a bulldozer in action, not a lot of subtlety or compassion/empathy .... "if you can fake sincerity.... " and she does pretty well.

I said years ago that Elizabeth's "vanity" (her excessive self-regard) would be her Achilles heel.  She doesn't consider anyone (even Claudia who out-ranks her) her equal and likely blames Phillip for the failure of their partnership .... how dare he spy on her??? (ummm, wild quess:  because she seemed about to self-destruct and he's her husband?)  

Push comes to shove ........ Elizabeth digs in her heels ... the future is unlikely to be rosy. 

[jjj]

Here are the separate moments when it registered to Philip (at the park) and Elizabeth (on the phone) that the game was over, and the moment they had forever dreaded had arrived: 
 

Edited May 25, 2018 by jjj

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

IIRC when Gabriel was leaving there was a brief discussion with Philip that Father Andrei was an informant but not well trained yet. He was sort of left hanging for Philip to pick up and Philip had no time to work with him. The first time he met with Philip (in the hospital when Philip was in disguise) I think he told Philip Gabriel had left "equipment" that he didn't know how to work.

I remember all of this, too. I got the impression Father Andrei was always going to be more of a facilitator, i.e., he'd pass on messages, give people a safe meeting space at the church, that sort of thing.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think Arkady would have ever thought Gaad was ripe for recruitment. He knew the guy.

Gaad's position in the FBI made it impossible not to try to recruit him, regardless of his situation. I'm pretty sure Arkady knew Gaad would never turn, but he had to at least go through the motions. It's just too bad the agents he sent to try were thugs.

4 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I'm surprised no one has tried to draw any parallel between Tatiana dying on the street and E's experience when she was younger with the comrade and horse dying.

I'm not sure what parallel can be drawn. But I would guess there may well be something there.

Elizabeth was told in Moscow you don't leave a comrade lying in the street, but you do in the U.S. 

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Reneeiskgb said:

I just finished watching it on dvr (hated having to wait).  Not sure if this has been addressed- What is preventing Philip from simply going home?  It's probably something obvious, but I don't get it.  He's changed his clothes and look, and he evaded the FBI, so what is the issue?

Philip had good reason to think he'd be recognized soon since the FBI was watching the meet with Father Andrei. Much safer to just tell Elizabeth to run herself and meet him. They must have a spot where to go etc.

[Umbelina]

OK, I am watching the episode again.

One thing kind of made me laugh.  The old joke was that you could always spot FBI agents by their shiny black shoes.  Both of the guys who chased Philip were wearing bright white running shoes.

It doesn't mean anything, it's just something I just noticed that kind of brought back old memories.

Also, Philip is an awkward runner, he kind of reminded me of William running.

[jjj]

16 minutes ago, Reneeiskgb said:

I just finished watching it on dvr (hated having to wait).  Not sure if this has been addressed- What is preventing Philip from simply going home?  It's probably something obvious, but I don't get it.  He's changed his clothes and look, and he evaded the FBI, so what is the issue?

Oh, ignore my oblivious previous reply about going "home" to Russia! 

Edited May 25, 2018 by jjj

[Umbelina]

@Bannon

Stan and Aderholt do discuss the surveillance photos.  "Where are the surveillance photos?"  "Not in yet."

No digital photos back then, so the following agents would have to get back to the office and also develop the film.

[Bannon]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

@Bannon

Stan and Aderholt do discuss the surveillance photos.  "Where are the surveillance photos?"  "Not in yet."

No digital photos back then, so the following agents would have to get back to the office and also develop the film.

Yes. They had 1 hour photo back then. I imagine at fbi hq it would be faster

[Clanstarling]

22 hours ago, jjj said:

Oh, yes, I could see the wheels turning in his head -- he remembered the threats all too well.  Stan's chit-chat took an ominous turn after he got to the real questions -- like, "Nice family you got there, be a shame if something happened to them."  Pastor Tim had to immediately decide if a vague FBI threat was more dangerous than the real KGB threat.  He chose right for his family's sake, and it's a good thing he likes Buenos Aires, because they will be there a long, long time. 

That, and because he is at the very least, complicit. His neck is on the line with his own country as well.

 

22 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

I was a little disappointed that Elizabeth didn't pull out her pistol and give Granny two in the chest and one in the head.

Me too. I even made a noise when she left the husband that made my husband say "boy, you really wanted her to kill Claudia." Yes, yes I did.

21 hours ago, Erin9 said:

How sad for Claudia- Claudia really thinks Philip and the kids are meaningless things to have left. Note her emphasis on American kids. 

Which also hints at how her grooming of Paige was a sham - I think Claudia never saw Paige as useful either.

20 hours ago, jjj said:

With all the secret signals and precautions, they didn't put blackout curtains on that window?  It is just a lit stage at night.

That has bugged me from the beginning. It is one of my pet peeves on all shows where the protagonists are at risk, or living secret lives. They all seem to have the damn curtains open and their rooms brightly lit. I'm nobody, but all of my curtains are closed before the lights come on.
 

16 hours ago, renatae said:

That's something that has always stood out to me. In the 80's it was really rare for D.C. to get snow, and on the show they have it all the time, at least signs of it on the streets. My MIL lived there, and we were visiting one weekend when it was frigid and there was just a trace of snow, and everyone, especially on the news, kept going on about how this was record low temps. Later on, it became more like today, and snow is not a very unusual occurrence there now. But not then.

Well, IIRC, at least one, if not two, of the seasons were shot during the aftermath of huge snow storms, so there wasn't much they could do about it.

11 hours ago, bluelena69 said:

Well, the FBI never particularly liked the CIA as it was created as a Cold War entity. The CIA didn't particularly like J. Edgar Hoover and his tactics. Furthermore, Hoover insisted on using his own agents internationally. Basically, cooperation between the two agencies was non-existent and they never really got there until the really 2000s.

Check out The Looming Towers on Hulu for a fictionalized version of that friction. This one may be more from the FBI point of view, but the lead characters are both kind of assholes.

10 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Her mother hasn't denied that people sometimes get hurt or even die because of her work.  But Elizabeth has deliberately lied, repeatedly, about using sex.  And she encouraged Paige to think of sex as something meaningful ("sleep with him if you like him, not to get information" or words to that effect), when she herself clearly views it primarily as a weapon in her arsenal.  Paige's outrage was about the lie, not about the sex.  Just as Elizabeth's outrage toward Claudia was about her lying.

I think Elizabeth definitely should have told the truth there - but I think Paige was upset about both. You don't use the word "whore" if you aren't upset about the sex aspect.
 

8 hours ago, scrb said:

So Tatiana, who's pretty much been portrayed as a house cat, was going to shiv a man out in the street?

I mean it's an efficient way to wrap up her character but kind of hard to believe.

I've never thought of Tatiana in that way. She was head of an important operation - much more important than Oleg's, and was even offered her own Residentura in (Africa?) - and she didn't have the family connections Oleg had.

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

For some reason people love the "reality" stuff. I'd rather have my fiction be packaged as fiction.

Agreed. I prefer dialogue witty and well written.

7 hours ago, jjj said:

Now I'm even more confused.  Stan's former partner?  I never saw "House". 

I'm posting this before reading past page 5 - a thunderstorm's coming and I want to shut down. But Wolf was the guy in the interview room with Stan. Dark hair, kind of large nose.

[hellmouse]

10 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

22 hours ago, Erin9 said:

How sad for Claudia- Claudia really thinks Philip and the kids are meaningless things to have left. Note her emphasis on American kids. 

Which also hints at how her grooming of Paige was a sham - I think Claudia never saw Paige as useful either.

It's plausible she was grooming Paige as a way to manipulate Elizabeth the whole time. 

[White Sheep]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm not sure I can give Stan the benefit of the doubt. I don't get why he doesn't listen to what Oleg is saying and try to use it as a positive for the US., especially, when he learns of Tatianna.   Couldn't he use the info to make the Americans appear to be on top of things, saved the day, saved a Soviet diplomat and diverted a coup to foil the Summit? They don't have to bring Oleg into it at all.  But, Stan is acting like he's in a pissing contest.  I don't get it. 

 

We would think it was a kgb plot to make America look bad

Edited May 25, 2018 by White Sheep

[Umbelina]

36 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yes. They had 1 hour photo back then. I imagine at fbi hq it would be faster

It's only been a couple of minutes at that point, and the agents also had to get back to the agency.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

While I think Tatiana’s murder just as she was about to murder Nesterenko should get the wheels turning for Soviet leadership- it would certainly be more expedient and direct for Philip’s note to make it into the right hands. I hope it does. And it would be interesting to say the least if Stan knew his frenemy Oleg and his best friend Philip collaborated on this little project.