S04.E12: You've Got to Hide Your Liv Away

[possibilities]

We saw Major specifically tell Liv he had chosen that particular brain for its particular effect, but he only admitted it after Liv figured out on her own that it wasn't a regular brain tube he'd given her. Whether or not it completely changes your personality, to me that's like if he offered her drink and laced it with some psychoactive substance. It's not his choice to make, it's hers. Lying to her about what he's giving her is just flat out wrong.

Not to mention that he did it to weaken her resistance to a romantic experience with him.

AND that he did it after knocking her out and kidnapping her.

I was very glad she called him out on it and didn't back down or accept his excuses.

--

I feel bad for Michelle. I like her.

--

The couple in the house was not the same couple as the couple Major and Liv ate the brains of.

[FilmTVGeek80]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

Not to mention that he did it to weaken her resistance to a romantic experience with him.

I don't think he did it for that reason. I think it was mostly just to keep Liv distracted while he was playing beat the clock and waiting out Curtis' execution.

I, honestly, have no real problem with his initial drugging of her and the kidnapping. I doubt reasoning with Liv would have made a difference and if he was going to kidnap her what would have been the better option - physically knocking her out? If your loved one is bound and determined to kill themselves I don't care if you're "taking their choice away" you'd do what you needed to do to save their life. I think the only place it gets iffy is him not letting her know he was giving her half of a couples' brain.  To me, it's sort of like the difference in wrongness in the first season finale between Liv scratching Major and her giving him the cure. She scratched him to save his life, so I had less of a problem with that. Giving him the cure was iffier because once again she didn't even discuss it with him and gave him no choices.

As for Dale and Clive, while I agree that they've screwed up with Dale this season and barely written for her, I've liked that couple in past seasons and thought they had good build-up prior to this season, so I can still root for them based on that even if this season wasn't that great for them.

[Affogato]

19 hours ago, Affogato said:

the point is that Fillmore graves is bad. Very bad. Chase deserves whatever comes to him. 

Actually I think the couple in the basement were victims of the brain pirates. The outlying shipments would be the easiest to hijack. 

 

Major seems to be motivated by threats to ‘his ‘womenfolk (Liv. Natalie...not mama Leone, for example) and ‘his’ kids, Jordan and captain Seattle. Liv should kick him in his sensitive parts. If she’s the lead in the show she shouldn’t take a backseat to his overprotective nonsense. There are other things he should be doing  

Major isn’t evil because he waved guns in a newspaper office while undercover but for someone in a unique position on the show to know all sides of the situation he is completely given himself over to his paternalistic side. It is evil to drug and kidnap someone. Try to talk to Chase  and get him to find a lab. Fewer zombies would help. 

Think back to his chaos killer period. Evil. Very evil and ended badly. But he did it to protect Liv. Okay then. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Affogato

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

I don't think he did it for that reason. I think it was mostly just to keep Liv distracted while he was playing beat the clock and waiting out Curtis' execution.

I, honestly, have no real problem with his initial drugging of her and the kidnapping. I doubt reasoning with Liv would have made a difference and if he was going to kidnap her what would have been the better option - physically knocking her out? If your loved one is bound and determined to kill themselves I don't care if you're "taking their choice away" you'd do what you needed to do to save their life. I think the only place it gets iffy is him not letting her know he was giving her half of a couples' brain.  To me, it's sort of like the difference in wrongness in the first season finale between Liv scratching Major and her giving him the cure. She scratched him to save his life, so I had less of a problem with that

We differ here. I think you respect the wishes of your loved one when they are known. If you don’t it isn’t love, it’s ownership. He is saying to Liv that she can’t make decisions about her life, that her convictions are unimportant, and the fifties brains underlines that so it is possible the writers were making that point. I suppose we’ll find out later. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

We differ here. I think you respect the wishes of your loved one when they are known. If you don’t it isn’t love, it’s ownership. 

I think that's mostly true, but there are some cases where you should disregard the known wishes of a loved one because they aren't in their own mind or what they wish is going to lead to harm and they either can't see it or refuse to see it.

If a loved one wants to commit suicide, for example, that is something where most people would intervene and try to stop them if they could, or get medical help, etc.

Effectively, by surrendering to FG, Liv was committing suicide.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'm going to answer a few questions/commentts with direct quotes from the episode because it's faster to copy and paste the dialogue than to type out the explanations.

20 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Here’s the thing: it has always been the case that the brain a zombie is on will impact their personality. It is just a question of how much.

In most instances that I can think of, Liv has not been able to just act herself while under the influence of a brain. She has stolen clothes from the Seattle PD lost and found to fit her new personality.

There have ave been only a couple instances I can think of when she resisted the influence of a brain. When she ate the brain of Ravi’s nympho boss, she controlled herself enough not to sleep with two humans before giving in and sleeping with Chase.

And learning that Tim was a zombie supremacist got her off rom-com brain.

But even if I were to agree that Liv would have free will, Major couldn’t know that for sure. And he could have simply gotten plain old brain tubes.

He deliberately dosed her with couple brain disguised as neutral brain.

Liv: You sneaky Pete, those brain tubes we ate weren't the regular kind, were they?
Major: They come courtesy of a blissfully happy married couple who died together at the ripe old age of 95.
Liv: I always did want to grow old with you. I know it's not real, but I'm having too much fun to care. Now the brain isn't in total control and the truth is I'm rather fond of you, you big Magilla.
Major: That suits me just fine.

19 hours ago, Jinxie said:

I actually don't remember the scene where Major chose those specific brains.  Did they show it?  Why did she choose to eat them at all; she should have eaten recently.

This is the same brain that another guy bought from the Scratching Post:

FG guy: Hey, baldie, I want a refund on those brains you sold me before I come back there and rip your head off! I bought these brains - old married couple. Thought it'd be fun with my fiancee. It worked for a couple of days. The next thing I know, she's reliving the memory of a freaking car crash!
Don E.: It said so on the menu. Fifty happy years, died together in car crash.
FG guy: The menu didn't say the wife caused the accident. 
Don E.: What? 
FG guy: Yeah. She got so fed up with her husband's singing, that she grabbed the wheel and steered them into a semi. Now everything I do drives my fiancee nuts.

 

On 5/22/2018 at 7:48 AM, marcee said:

I'm confused about whose brains they ate if the happy couple was zombiefied in their own basement.

Two different couples - a zombie couple that lived in the house and a human couple who were killed in a car crash.
Liv: So who does live here?
Major: This is a safe house operated by Fillmore-Graves, darling. One of our married couples lives here, and I can't for the life of me figure out where they've gone.
Liv: Then we'll pretend it's ours till they return.

Later Major and Liv discovered the couple from the safehouse locked in a cage in the basement with a note explaining what happened:
Major: It says Fillmore-Graves stopped sending brain tubes. They were afraid they'd go Romero and hurt somebody. They decided Jeff would shoot Tammy and then himself but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Couldn't bear the idea of living without her even for a moment.

[marcee]

12 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Two different couples - a zombie couple that lived in the house and a human couple who were killed in a car crash.

Liv: So who does live here?
Major: This is a safe house operated by Fillmore-Graves, darling. One of our married couples lives here, and I can't for the life of me figure out where they've gone.
Liv: Then we'll pretend it's ours till they return.

Later Major and Liv discovered the couple from the safehouse locked in a cage in the basement with a note explaining what happened:
Major: It says Fillmore-Graves stopped sending brain tubes. They were afraid they'd go Romero and hurt somebody. They decided Jeff would shoot Tammy and then himself but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Couldn't bear the idea of living without her even for a moment.

You're the very bestest.

[LoneHaranguer]

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If Major didn't follow Roche's shooting with his own, he would have lost his chance for an in with Roche and a chance to shut down the brain black market that has zombies starving and again threatened the survival of New Seattle.

Isn't the black market just changing who is being fed and whether they're eating mushed brains, not the overall supply? As far as the survival of New Seattle is concerned it doesn't matter which zombies starve. Threats would include anyone making more zombies when food is limited, or destroying supplies to provoke a crisis.

[Affogato]

58 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think that's mostly true, but there are some cases where you should disregard the known wishes of a loved one because they aren't in their own mind or what they wish is going to lead to harm and they either can't see it or refuse to see it.

If a loved one wants to commit suicide, for example, that is something where most people would intervene and try to stop them if they could, or get medical help, etc.

Effectively, by surrendering to FG, Liv was committing suicide.

Liv had something she was willing to die for. That is respectable. She is clearly in her right mind and functioning. It should be her decision. It is, after all, her reasonable facsimile of life. She is a soldier of the rebellion and this is a pretty common scenario.  

We seem to honor people that sacrifice themselves for their comrades in the line of duty. We hate that patrolman that didn’t take is pistol into a flurry of automatic weapon fire in a school shooting.

Also remember Drake in the basement of max rager? Was your first response that he was suicidal?

Edited May 23, 2018 by Affogato

[biakbiak]

55 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Effectively, by surrendering to FG, Liv was committing suicide.

But that is still her decision to make and she was in her right mind. She didn’t want someone else to prepay the price for her actions and that is her choice.

[Chicago Redshirt]

41 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Isn't the black market just changing who is being fed and whether they're eating mushed brains, not the overall supply? As far as the survival of New Seattle is concerned it doesn't matter which zombies starve. Threats would include anyone making more zombies when food is limited, or destroying supplies to provoke a crisis.

Well it is changing not just who is getting fed but also how much they are fed, and then creating various consequences of that.  The figure thrown in the most recent episode was that 40 percent of the brains FG got were getting hijacked. We don't know what that translated into in terms of how the black market operated. How much did the Blue Cobras "step" on the brains they seized to try and increase their profits? Did they cater to any particular groups of zombies? 

We did see what was just one consequence of the shortage: the zombie bus driver who starved himself so that his family could get enough, who then became too weak and got in an accident and couldn't control himself when the opportunity to get real brains presented itself.

We don't know how many situations like that might be, but any one of those could be the tipping point where people in or outside of New Seattle decide peaceful co-existence is not possible.

22 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Liv had something she was willing to die for. That is respectable. She is clearly in her right mind and functioning. It should be her decision. It is, after all, her reasonable facsimile of life. She is a soldier of the rebellion and this is a pretty common scenario.  

We seem to honor people that sacrifice themselves for their comrades in the line of duty. We hate that patrolman that didn’t take is pistol into a flurry of automatic weapon fire in a school shooting.

Also remember Drake in the basement of max rager? Was your first response that he was suicidal?

 

21 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

But that is still her decision to make and she was in her right mind. She didn’t want someone else to prepay the price for her actions and that is her choice.

I totally personally agree that it was Liv's decision to make. But I also think reasonable people will disagree about when suicide is justified, including the self-sacrifice that Liv engaged in.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with regard to Drake. Googling, it looks like he volunteered to take a test drug and it didn't work out for him. In such a case, he took a risk that could have paid off if the drug had worked. By contrast, there's pretty much no scenario where Liv doesn't get killed by surrendering herself as Renegade.

[Affogato]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well it is changing not just who is getting fed but also how much they are fed, and then creating various consequences of that.  The figure thrown in the most recent episode was that 40 percent of the brains FG got were getting hijacked. We don't know what that translated into in terms of how the black market operated. How much did the Blue Cobras "step" on the brains they seized to try and increase their profits? Did they cater to any particular groups of zombies? 

We did see what was just one consequence of the shortage: the zombie bus driver who starved himself so that his family could get enough, who then became too weak and got in an accident and couldn't control himself when the opportunity to get real brains presented itself.

We don't know how many situations like that might be, but any one of those could be the tipping point where people in or outside of New Seattle decide peaceful co-existence is not possible.

 

I totally personally agree that it was Liv's decision to make. But I also think reasonable people will disagree about when suicide is justified, including the self-sacrifice that Liv engaged in.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with regard to Drake. Googling, it looks like he volunteered to take a test drug and it didn't work out for him. In such a case, he took a risk that could have paid off if the drug had worked. By contrast, there's pretty much no scenario where Liv doesn't get killed by surrendering herself as Renegade.

My impression was everyone was terrified and the drug wasn’t working. He volunteered to buy the rest time. I can’t imagine anyone there believed he was coming back as himself. 

Well the condemned often gets a last meal. Isobel brain?

[FilmTVGeek80]

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

Think back to his chaos killer period. Evil. Very evil and ended badly.

 

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

We differ here. I think you respect the wishes of your loved one when they are known. If you don’t it isn’t love, it’s ownership.

I guess we differ on two points then. No, I don't believe Major was evil during the Chaos Killer storyline. And I don't agree that you respect someone's wishes at all times. I know if a loved one told me they were planning to commit suicide I wouldn't throw up my hands, call it their choice, and let them go with God as it were. I'd do anything I could to save that person. You want to call that "ownership" so be it.

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well it is changing not just who is getting fed but also how much they are fed, and then creating various consequences of that.

We haven't heard anything to suggest  that they're getting any less mileage out of the brains they eat.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

We haven't heard anything to suggest  that they're getting any less mileage out of the brains they eat.

There definitely was an episode -- probably the one where the bus driver zombie died -- where he or someone was complaining that the FG brain tubes were so watered down that they were barely getting by. So the main conclusion is that individual brain tubes were being diluted at least at a point to stretch them further. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

 

I guess we differ on two points then. No, I don't believe Major was evil during the Chaos Killer storyline. And I don't agree that you respect someone's wishes at all times. I know if a loved one told me they were planning to commit suicide I wouldn't throw up my hands, call it their choice, and let them go with God as it were. I'd do anything I could to save that person. You want to call that "ownership" so be it.

Major could have found another way. I can think of a few  

 

But she isn’t saying she is going to commit suicide. She is turning herself in to prevent the death of someone she feels responsible for in this case, a friend and subordinate. She is taking responsibility even when it is hard to do.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Affogato

[Chicago Redshirt]

She is turning herself in knowing that Renegade 1.0 was executed, knowing that FG has a general policy that human smugglers will be executed. She almost certainly knows she will be executed, and is willing to make that sacrifice.

[marcee]

21 minutes ago, Affogato said:

But she isn’t saying she is going to commit suicide. She is turning herself in to prevent the death of someone she feels responsible for in this case, a friend and subordinate. She is taking responsibility even when it is hard to do.

It's still suicide. Suicide by righteousness, but still suicide. She knows the only thing waiting for her once she turns herself in is a heavy anvil on a string. And, honestly, by "proving" she's Renegade, she ended up throwing a bunch of other people under the bus (or anvil, as the case may be). Everyone involved in the smuggling business made a choice and knew what they were getting themselves into. Everyone involved should also know that Liv is more important to continuing the cause than they are - and most would have been willing to stand in her place in order to keep the railroad running. If anything, Liv's moral high ground put more people in danger and ultimately ended the thing they were so desperate to support.

I'm not suggesting Major isn't without his flaws, but he was just trying to save Liv from herself.

[Affogato]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

She is turning herself in knowing that Renegade 1.0 was executed, knowing that FG has a general policy that human smugglers will be executed. She almost certainly knows she will be executed, and is willing to make that sacrifice.

Obviously. Yes. 

[LoneHaranguer]

47 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There definitely was an episode -- probably the one where the bus driver zombie died -- where he or someone was complaining that the FG brain tubes were so watered down that they were barely getting by. So the main conclusion is that individual brain tubes were being diluted at least at a point to stretch them further. 

It's a population control choice. If you have monthly supply shipments that will not much more than subsist zombies for a month, it's better to stretch the food out over that period and have some grumbling, than give them a few tubes of full-strength rations and expect them to ignore the obvious implications and exercise restraint.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Obviously. Yes. 

Some might call that sacrifice a suicide. 

9 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

It's a population control choice. If you have monthly supply shipments that will not much more than subsist zombies for a month, it's better to stretch the food out over that period and have some grumbling, than give them a few tubes of full-strength rations and expect them to ignore the obvious implications and exercise restraint.

Sure. But the point is that with the black market existing and siphoning off brains from those who were meant to get it, that would potentially have a big impact (or no impact) on the overall climate in New Seattle. 

If 40 percent of the needed brain tubes are going to the black market, what are the zombies who were supposed to get those tubes for free going to do? Starve like the bus driver and snap? Turn to crime and hooking to pay for them, like Jordan referenced? Kill humans and get their brains the old-fashioned way? Join up with Brother Love? Snap on the 1 percent of zombies who do get to eat their fill at places like Romero's and FGs and the morgue?

[tennisgurl]

On a shallow note, Liv looked great in her 1950s housewife outfit. I loved seeing the brighter colors on her for once, its a great look on her. 

I dont want Liv or her people to die, of course, and Fillmore Graves are not the good guys here by any means, I do get why they're trying to stop the smugglers from bringing more humans into New Seattle and turning them into zombies. If they were just trying to get people out, or people in to be with their loved ones, that would be understandable, but adding to their clear population crisis? Thats just making the problems worse, even if their intentions to save lives are good. It saves lives, yes, but it also leads to homeless, starving zombies, ripe to manipulation by people like Brother Love, or starvation, like the people in the safe house. 

[Jinxie]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This is the same brain that another guy bought from the Scratching Post:

FG guy: Hey, baldie, I want a refund on those brains you sold me before I come back there and rip your head off! I bought these brains - old married couple. Thought it'd be fun with my fiancee. It worked for a couple of days. The next thing I know, she's reliving the memory of a freaking car crash!
Don E.: It said so on the menu. Fifty happy years, died together in car crash.
FG guy: The menu didn't say the wife caused the accident. 
Don E.: What? 
FG guy: Yeah. She got so fed up with her husband's singing, that she grabbed the wheel and steered them into a semi. Now everything I do drives my fiancee nuts.

 

I agree those are the same brains.  But my point is, how do we know that he chose those deliberately?  We never see him acquire the brains.  He needed them quickly - maybe they were all he could get.

The assumption seems to be that it was deliberate, but we actually don't know that.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, Jinxie said:

I agree those are the same brains.  But my point is, how do we know that he chose those deliberately?  We never see him acquire the brains.  He needed them quickly - maybe they were all he could get.

The assumption seems to be that it was deliberate, but we actually don't know that.

We pretty much know it was deliberate.

1. Major is a smart and resourceful guy.

2.  He works for FG, and is high up as the VP of getting stuff done. We saw earlier in the season that part of the recruitment pitch for the foot soldiers was basically all you can eat, and that there was a vending machine with brain tubes. Major thus has access to plenty of regular brain tubes.

3. The brains he got were from the Scratching Post. (unless we're going to pretend that there are two sets of elderly married couples who died in a car crash) So we know he went out of his way to get them. (He was at his place when he first learned about the tweet demanding Renegade's surrender.

4. Major put the Scratching Post brains he provided in brain tube packaging. (per Liv's quote about them not just being regular brain tubes) Why do that unless he wanted to hide what they were?

5. He did not tell Liv that these were the particular brains that they were and give her the choice of eating those or generic brain paste.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Chicago Redshirt

[AudienceofOne]

I still like this show, you guys! Am I alone?

On 22/05/2018 at 12:50 PM, HunterHunted said:

What's worse than mansplaining? Major's condescending and paternalistic plan to kidnap Liv to keep her from harm and Ravi and Levon signing off on it. The fuck was that shit?!?!?x

I didn't have a problem with the kidnapping because Liv handing herself over is short-sighted and emotional and achieves nothing. I did, however, have a problem with 

On 22/05/2018 at 3:48 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

he effectively drugs her to keep her a docile homemaker, effectively brainwashing her (literally, really). I don't care if he did the same thing to himself, I cannot fathom for the life of me how the writers thought this would be a good idea. If both characters had willingly submitted to the brains, that would be one thing, but this just ends up making Major look like the biggest POS imaginable.

This. That was just awful. I thought at first that they ate the brains unknowingly, but once I found out he did it intentionally then it was just totally gross. It was

On 22/05/2018 at 5:25 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

the zombie equivalent of roofies. 

Of course some people have more problem with Major's other actions such as the bar incident or the kidnapping but this is a debate we could have forever. The psychological impact of roofie/rape is far more pervasive as a real-world issue, especially when there's a relationship of trust. And so I think it's worse.

You could say of course that she could chose to let the brains overwhelm her because she's secretly still in love in Major and wanted to play out a domestic fantasy. And you'd have a point. But that doesn't change that he chose to do it before he knew that. I know those scenes were supposed to be funny but I couldn't enjoy it. I couldn't even enjoy that Liv's eventual rebellion seemed to be more about "I secretly hate you" brains than her own decision.

12 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

 

I guess we differ on two points then. No, I don't believe Major was evil during the Chaos Killer storyline. And I don't agree that you respect someone's wishes at all times. I know if a loved one told me they were planning to commit suicide I wouldn't throw up my hands, call it their choice, and let them go with God as it were. I'd do anything I could to save that person. You want to call that "ownership" so be it.

I differ on both those points as well.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 hours ago, Jinxie said:

I agree those are the same brains.  But my point is, how do we know that he chose those deliberately?  We never see him acquire the brains.  He needed them quickly - maybe they were all he could get.

The assumption seems to be that it was deliberate, but we actually don't know that.

 

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We pretty much know it was deliberate.

1. Major is a smart and resourceful guy.

2.  He works for FG, and is high up as the VP of getting stuff done. We saw earlier in the season that part of the recruitment pitch for the foot soldiers was basically all you can eat, and that there was a vending machine with brain tubes. Major thus has access to plenty of regular brain tubes.

3. The brains he got were from the Scratching Post. (unless we're going to pretend that there are two sets of elderly married couples who died in a car crash) So we know he went out of his way to get them. (He was at his place when he first learned about the tweet demanding Renegade's surrender.

4. Major put the Scratching Post brains he provided in brain tube packaging. (per Liv's quote about them not just being regular brain tubes) Why do that unless he wanted to hide what they were?

5. He did not tell Liv that these were the particular brains that they were and give her the choice of eating those or generic brain paste.

And just to add to this, the fact that he got this brain at the Scratching Post indicates that he chose it because that's what Blaine's places do. They have multiple brains available and they're all described in a menu/binder so that the patrons can choose what kind of experience they will have. If he was in such a hurry, he wouldn't have had time to put the Scratching Post brain into FG brain tubes, so yeah, he may have been in a hurry but he still made the time to make some very deliberate choices.

If his only priority was getting Liv out of town immediately, he would have just grabbed some of the FG brain tubes (which he probably has at home) and driven straight to her house. Instead, he got some FB brain tubes (while he was at work getting the injection that knocked her out), went to the Scratching Post for other brains, and then went to her apartment.

3 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I still like this show, you guys! Am I alone?

No, it's not just you! I still like it too! Every week when I read the posts from people who are hate watching now, I think of Joey on Friends eating Rachel's meat custard trifle: "I LIKE IT."

[possibilities]

6 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I still like this show, you guys! Am I alone?

I still like it, too. It's not perfect, and sometimes I agree with some of the complaints against it, but overall I like it and I appreciate the complexity of some of what they are trying to highlight with the current story. When I criticize something someone did, like Major this week, I don't even necessarily always consider that to be a criticism of the show itself; sometimes a show will highlight bad behavior to knock it down rather than build it up. Sometimes it's morally grey. Sometimes it's an honest mistake. And sometimes they are looking for a villain to set up the heroes. There can be lots of reasons a show would do something like that, not all of which are bad even when the behavior is.  I'm unclear about what the show thinks of Major right now, but the ambiguity is letting people consider their own values, so at the moment I'm not against the story, though I find it unpleasant and I don't know whether or not I'll feel OK about what they're doing once I see where it is headed.

Even things like Liv being way too influenced by the brain of the week-- I find it annoying but not as annoying as some others do. I wish they would tone it down, but it hasn't made me hate the show.

Like a lot of shows, I think it has pros and cons. There are a few shows I love unreservedly, but a lot I think are kind of mixed.

[LoneHaranguer]

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If 40 percent of the needed brain tubes are going to the black market, what are the zombies who were supposed to get those tubes for free going to do?

The zombies eating the 40 percent aren't eating the mush, so the remaining 60 percent will cover the rest of the population, until the supply falls off or too many new zombies have been created, and  the supply is no longer enough. At that point, an unequal distribution will work in New Seattle's favor in that you're not going to have as many zombies going Romero at the same time.

[Chicago Redshirt]

32 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

The zombies eating the 40 percent aren't eating the mush, so the remaining 60 percent will cover the rest of the population, until the supply falls off or too many new zombies have been created, and  the supply is no longer enough. At that point, an unequal distribution will work in New Seattle's favor in that you're not going to have as many zombies going Romero at the same time.

We are probably thinking about this more than the writers. 

But if you mean by the "40 percent" the tubes that have gone missing, the tubes start off as mush, and then got diluted and stepped on  further by the black marketeers.

The 60 percent of tubes that stay within proper distribution channels is presumably not enough for the entire population. 

If we are saying that 40 percent of the tubes meant for 10k zombies get jacked, that (roughly) means that 4k zombies are not getting their free shipments of brains

We can only speculate as to what the 4k zombies are doing instead. And then it's speculation on speculation about how their actions might affect zombie-human relations. But it can't be good.

[CletusMusashi]

All this talk about the power of brains has me thinking that perhaps the mechanics of how it works have not changed as much this season as I've believed. You know how there's a certain type of drunk that dosn't even wait to be drunk? I'm not talking about the guy who sneaks a beer with lunch and goes on with his life. I'm talking about the normally quiet person, who, five minutes into his first drink, is roaring with laughter at his own jokes and screaming at the football players on TV. Becaue he likes being drunk more than he likes being himself, and so he embraces the personality change way, way more than the amount of alcohol in his system can possibly explain. I think Liv has evolved into that kind of brain addict.

Being a zombie took away her career, her family, her engagement, and in general just took away her control of her daily life. What did she have instead? Solving crimes with Ravi and Clive by literally thinking like someone else. That's her escape from being fully immersed in the problems of being Liv. Even when she wants to get off one brain as quickly as possible, whenever possible she does it by choosing a different pure brain. Even before brain tubes became publicly available, once she learned about them she could have started doing the same thing by mixing little bits of several different cadaver brains that for some reason nobody in Seatle PD keeps track of. But as long she's stuck being a zombie, a significant part of her really doesn't want to just be herself. And that's why she's diving into the personality of the week harder these days.

No doubt some other zombies have the same problem. And I think Angus has something similar, although in his case it's not a compulsion to be the dead person. It's a desire to look down on how weak and poor and, in his world view, inferior they were. He's not going into it for the maximum empathy experience, because to him it's more like... trying to watch "Jersey Shore" with a straight face... because God told you to.

Now, do I still actually think the writing staff is good enough to have thought of all this? Beats the fuck out of me. But there's only one season to go, and I want to keep liking this story enough to see how it ends. So this is my fanwank, and I'm sticking to it for as long as possible.

Edited May 26, 2018 by CletusMusashi

[LoneHaranguer]

8 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If we are saying that 40 percent of the tubes meant for 10k zombies get jacked, that (roughly) means that 4k zombies are not getting their free shipments of brains

But, those would be the customers of the hijackers; they don't need or want their allocation of mush.

[Chicago Redshirt]

22 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

But, those would be the customers of the hijackers; they don't need or want their allocation of mush.

First of all, we don't necessarily know who the customers of the hijackers would or wouldn't be. Some, no doubt, would be among the 4k whose tubes got jacked. Some of the zombies who had their tubes jacked might not know how to find the black market, might not be able to afford the black market, etc. Some of the black market's customers might be zombies who want more than their base rations. Heck, if I were a human in New Seattle, I might keep a brain tube or two on my person to give a hungry zombie an alternative to snacking on me.

And pretty much all zombies, except for those rich enough to regularly dine at Romero's or who are Liv and have a reliable alternate supply of brains, are going to need the allocation of tubes at some point.

[AudienceofOne]

2 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Being a zombie took away her career, her family, her engagement, and in general just took away her control of her daily life. What did she have instead? Solving crimes with Ravi and Clive by literally thinking like someone else. That's her escape from being fully immersed in the problems of being Liv. Even when he wants to get off one brain as quickly as possible, whenever possible she does it by choosing a different pure brain. Even before brain tubes became publicly available, once she learned about them she could have started doing the same thing by mixing little bits of several different cadaver brains that for some reason nobody in Seatle PD keeps track of. But as long she's stuck being a zombie, a significant part of her really doesn't want to just be herself. And that's why she's diving into the personality of the week harder these days.

Nicely put. The show has had Liv say that she's deliberately allowing the brains to overwhelm but it was only one line last season and they haven't really explored it since. I think you're spot on (and with these writers I'm willing to give them the credit, unlike other shows). 

[Affogato]

On 5/23/2018 at 6:06 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Some might call that sacrifice a suicide. 

 

Also: a pregnant woman forgoing cancer treatment so her baby will live.  A soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save his comrades. The members of the light brigade, all six hundred. A man running into a burning house to save a child.  A Japanese college student killing himself because he failed. An Inuit elder walking out into the snow during a hard winter. A fourteen year old who cuts their wrist because someone has spread internet rumors. A very drunken man who decides he’s Batman because at some point there is a decision point there, parkour!

But they are pretty wildly different situations. always stop drunk Batman, yes . He’ll thank you in the morning. Fourteen year old maybe doesn’t have enough experience to have perspective . Stop her. 

But it isn’t always that simple  

[Ray Adverb]

I got caught up on this and the previous 2 episodes.

 

I'm confused.  The old couple were in Oregon.  How were there zombies outside of the quarantine zone?

How did Major and Liv get to the safe house Oregon?  How is the quarantine border so porous?

 

Why is literally nobody doing anything about a zombie preacher with a cult of fanatics openly advocating murder and the slaughter of humans?  How is every human authority so god damn incompetent and cowardly?  Fillmore Graves shot up a newspaper for printing a slightly negative article about him.  An action which has still had no consequences despite being incredibly illegal.

 

Agreed with everyone who is sick of the relationship between Clive and Dale.  It serves no purpose except to be a troubled relationship.  It is only ever brought up to show how difficult human to zombie relationships are.  The writers are sticking to the bad writing principle of "tell, don't show" and just having Clive talk about how much in love he is with Dale despite there being no chemistry between them.

 

I was glad to see Ravi get back to work on a cure and actually stumble into one.  Of course, this not being the series finale, something will go wrong.  It would be great if they could come up with some reason to cure the thousands of new zombies but leave a couple original zombies around for narrative purposes.  We still need the episode where Liv starts acting like Yosemite Sam for eating the brain of a chili enthusiast.

[Affogato]

12 minutes ago, RayAdverb said:

I got caught up on this and the previous 2 episodes.

 

I'm confused.  The old couple were in Oregon.  How were there zombies outside of the quarantine zone?

How did Major and Liv get to the safe house Oregon?  How is the quarantine border so porous?

 

Why is literally nobody doing anything about a zombie preacher with a cult of fanatics openly advocating murder and the slaughter of humans?  How is every human authority so god damn incompetent and cowardly?  Fillmore Graves shot up a newspaper for printing a slightly negative article about him.  An action which has still had no consequences despite being incredibly illegal.

 

Agreed with everyone who is sick of the relationship between Clive and Dale.  It serves no purpose except to be a troubled relationship.  It is only ever brought up to show how difficult human to zombie relationships are.  The writers are sticking to the bad writing principle of "tell, don't show" and just having Clive talk about how much in love he is with Dale despite there being no chemistry between them.

 

I was glad to see Ravi get back to work on a cure and actually stumble into one.  Of course, this not being the series finale, something will go wrong.  It would be great if they could come up with some reason to cure the thousands of new zombies but leave a couple original zombies around for narrative purposes.  We still need the episode where Liv starts acting like Yosemite Sam for eating the brain of a chili enthusiast.

I bet there are zombies in place in the secret service and many mercenary organizations and probably up and doen the country. Major went out to kidnap the generals daughter, so there are routes and he probably isn’t the only one to use them. 

I think there is enough plot for 22 episodes stuffed into 13. 

Ravi doesn’t have a cure. He has one small brain made out of Unobtanium. It isn’t enough to fix this crisis. 

Will chase be killed or humanities or both? I’m unspoiled so I can ask that. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, RayAdverb said:

I got caught up on this and the previous 2 episodes.

 

I'm confused.  The old couple were in Oregon.  How were there zombies outside of the quarantine zone?

How did Major and Liv get to the safe house Oregon?  How is the quarantine border so porous?

 

Why is literally nobody doing anything about a zombie preacher with a cult of fanatics openly advocating murder and the slaughter of humans?  How is every human authority so god damn incompetent and cowardly?  Fillmore Graves shot up a newspaper for printing a slightly negative article about him.  An action which has still had no consequences despite being incredibly illegal.

 

Agreed with everyone who is sick of the relationship between Clive and Dale.  It serves no purpose except to be a troubled relationship.  It is only ever brought up to show how difficult human to zombie relationships are.  The writers are sticking to the bad writing principle of "tell, don't show" and just having Clive talk about how much in love he is with Dale despite there being no chemistry between them.

 

I was glad to see Ravi get back to work on a cure and actually stumble into one.  Of course, this not being the series finale, something will go wrong.  It would be great if they could come up with some reason to cure the thousands of new zombies but leave a couple original zombies around for narrative purposes.  We still need the episode where Liv starts acting like Yosemite Sam for eating the brain of a chili enthusiast.

Presumably there are some number of zombies around the world outside the quarantine zone. Fillmore Graves (and for that matter, Max Rager) were worldwide operations prior to D-Day. There is no reason to believe that they voluntarily curtailed all operations and sent people to Seattle. Also, there were unaffiliated zombies who would have been outside Seattle. Some people had Max Rager + utopium and zombified in other locations. For instance, Liv's first boyfriend was not originally from Seattle if I remember correctly.

Presumably Major can talk his way through of the border crossings as a high-ranking FG official and Chase's bestie (at least until recently). How wanted criminal Russ Roche was able to make it through doesn't make sense.

So far, Brother Love's preaching has not been about slaughtering humans in the here and now. Both the humans and FG have done things -- just not enough, IMO. Chase detailed Enzo to look into the group. It was another one of Chase's many missteps, because sending a zombie supremacist to monitor the church of a zombie supremacist isn't the best strategy. Clive arrested Brother Love only to have Enzo rescue him. 

[Ray Adverb]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

I bet there are zombies in place in the secret service and many mercenary organizations and probably up and doen the country. Major went out to kidnap the generals daughter, so there are routes and he probably isn’t the only one to use them. 

I think there is enough plot for 22 episodes stuffed into 13. 

Ravi doesn’t have a cure. He has one small brain made out of Unobtanium. It isn’t enough to fix this crisis. 

Will chase be killed or humanities or both? I’m unspoiled so I can ask that. 

He cured a lab rat, which is a promising start.  Isobel's brain secreted an antigen.  The smart thing to do would be to share this with the CDC and WHO, which are undoubtedly working night and day to develop a cure for this terrible new disease.  Then they can work to study and replicate this antigen through artificial means.  Isobel died of a terminal case of SuddenDeathItis, a terrible disease that leaves you completely healthy until you spontaneously die of a nose bleed.  While this is an utterly lame disease, it is definitely well known in the universe of this show, so the body of knowledge that the medical community has could assuredly be brought forward as a valuable resource.

 

Unfortunately, as established, every human in this world is a god damn moron so that probably won't happen.  Ravi will keep the cure to himself, then it will promptly be stolen again.

[ketose]

54 minutes ago, RayAdverb said:

He cured a lab rat, which is a promising start.  Isobel's brain secreted an antigen.  The smart thing to do would be to share this with the CDC and WHO, which are undoubtedly working night and day to develop a cure for this terrible new disease.  Then they can work to study and replicate this antigen through artificial means.  Isobel died of a terminal case of SuddenDeathItis, a terrible disease that leaves you completely healthy until you spontaneously die of a nose bleed.  While this is an utterly lame disease, it is definitely well known in the universe of this show, so the body of knowledge that the medical community has could assuredly be brought forward as a valuable resource.

 

Unfortunately, as established, every human in this world is a god damn moron so that probably won't happen.  Ravi will keep the cure to himself, then it will promptly be stolen again.

Also, the first cure was made from unobtainium "tainted utopium" that is apparently impossible to replicate and therefore means a tiny, limited supply.

[LoneHaranguer]

5 hours ago, RayAdverb said:

It would be great if they could come up with some reason to cure the thousands of new zombies but leave a couple original zombies around for narrative purposes.  We still need the episode where Liv starts acting like Yosemite Sam for eating the brain of a chili enthusiast.

The obvious possibility is that Ravi's cure wouldn't work if you'd been a zombie too long, so Liv, Blaine, Don E, and the rest of the Scratching Post gang get to stay as they are, but New Seattle's problem would be solved, perhaps also saving Liv from the Ronco Smash-O-Matic (although there are other tropes they could use for that).

[AudienceofOne]

6 hours ago, RayAdverb said:

Why is literally nobody doing anything about a zombie preacher with a cult of fanatics openly advocating murder and the slaughter of humans? 

The real threat security forces in the US are concerned about are Christian fundamentalists and white supremacists but if you try and google it you get nothing. Why is a zombie city not openly moving against a zombie church? Why is the media not reporting it? That's how society works. You demonise those who are not like you and treat the threats of those who are as standard law and order issues.

[possibilities]

So Ravi has stumbled into two cures, one from the tainted utopium and one from Isobel's brain. Either there is something the two have in common, or there are multiple ways to cure zombie-ism.

Also, they should be recruiting people with Isobel's disease, to see if they are all immune. They could also ask them to donate their brains after death, in exchange for a cash payout for their families, or a donation to whatever organization is doing research for a cure to their disease.

[CoderLady]

Nope. Too rational.

[Affogato]

18 hours ago, possibilities said:

So Ravi has stumbled into two cures, one from the tainted utopium and one from Isobel's brain. Either there is something the two have in common, or there are multiple ways to cure zombie-ism.

Also, they should be recruiting people with Isobel's disease, to see if they are all immune. They could also ask them to donate their brains after death, in exchange for a cash payout for their families, or a donation to whatever organization is doing research for a cure to their disease.

Yes, all of this will take time. Right now unless Ravi secretly knows the loaves and fishes secret calming the mob will have to be done in some other way. 

[CherithCutestory]

On 5/23/2018 at 11:41 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Effectively, by surrendering to FG, Liv was committing suicide.

So? That was absolutely her choice not his. She would have done it to save another person. A person who she had a responsibility to. Who she owed and who was her subordinate. In fact, I think Liv had an obligation to give herself up.

And he would NEVER have been OK with her kidnapping him and essentially drugging him with a couple brain if he wanted to sacrifice himself for one of his kids. Major has tried to sacrifice himself on more than one occasion. But that's heroic. And then he took that choice away from Liv.

I find Major irredeemable, at this point.

Quote

That's how society works. You demonise those who are not like you and treat the threats of those who are as standard law and order issues.

I'd say a pack of zombies advocating mass human slaughter are in the "not like you" category.

Quote

Nicely put. The show has had Liv say that she's deliberately allowing the brains to overwhelm but it was only one line last season and they haven't really explored it since. I think you're spot on (and with these writers I'm willing to give them the credit, unlike other shows). 

But last season that was for a specific reason.

[ketose]

2 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

So? That was absolutely her choice not his. She would have done it to save another person. A person who she had a responsibility to. Who she owed and who was her subordinate. In fact, I think Liv had an obligation to give herself up.

And he would NEVER have been OK with her kidnapping him and essentially drugging him with a couple brain if he wanted to sacrifice himself for one of his kids. Major has tried to sacrifice himself on more than one occasion. But that's heroic. And then he took that choice away from Liv.

The main difference is that Liv is the head of a resistance cell. If killing an underling flushed out the leader, then the authorities would have no trouble destroying them. The show established that after Mama Leone was killed, the rest of the group was going to fall apart without Liv's unlikely skills. Her obligation is to the mission.

Major was part of a chain of command. If he took the punishment for his people, he could be replaced. Now that he's the commander of the FG military, he doesn't have that luxury anymore.

[possibilities]

When Liv took over, she promised them she would take responsibility. She said she would do the scratching and she would take the blame. They weren't going to continue until she said that. I think this makes her determination to follow through on that promise equivalent to an obligation.

[AudienceofOne]

3 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

I'd say a pack of zombies advocating mass human slaughter are in the "not like you" category.

Seattle is run by zombies.

You know what is the largest threat to the US at the moment - heavily-armed white Christian fundamentalists who preach mass murder against minority groups such as Muslims in their churches and literally murder black people. How do you treat heavily-armed white Christian fundamentalists? As a law and order issue. That's what this whole plotline was about.

[aradia22]

Lol, what? Why is FG sending out these kinds of messages via twitter?

Liv and non-important guy from a 90's boy band have no chemistry and I also don't care about their relationship. Major, Lowell, Drake... this show used to be good at giving us eye candy and guys I could get invested in. If they aren't feeling it, there's no reason why Liv couldn't be single for a while. It's not like this is adding much to the show and they're already juggling too many storylines.

GAG. Making Major give Liv that "you were right" speech was revolting. She wasn't right. He's more right but they're both wrong. 

LOL, I love that he's continuing his Chaos Killer routine. Major is a way more interesting character than Liv. He's the sweetest but he's also capable of acting for the greater good and doing what he thinks is necessary. The whole CK and FG episodes just toughened him up. While Liv has been all over the place with different brains, Major has been growing and gaining depth as a character.

If Blaine knows about the brain shortage, why does he want more zombies?

LOL. Since it's Liv and Major I really enjoyed the happy housewife brain. Though it makes no sense for her to suddenly forget bf I don't care about. The brains make Liv act a certain way but she still does the things she wants to do. And she can fight off a brain if she wants. Unless we're supposed to think she just wanted an excuse to get back together with Major. That said, if they have sex on this brain it's going to be kind of gross. At best, some kind of coercion. Like if a vampire uses glamour. 

Ravi on... I guess instagram model brain? was... interesting. He felt more like a gay stereotype than a fully realized victim of the week. 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Clive doesn't know about Brother Love? How do so many people not know about Brother Love?

Major and Liv were so adorable in a Pleasantville kind of way.

Wait, so coincidentally they ate the brains of the 95-year-old couple and there was another pair of Romero lovebirds in the basement?

It makes no sense for Frenchie to let Angus go. Isn't it conspiracy to commit murder or criminal negligence or something like that if you incite someone else to commit murder?

Why didn't they kill Jeff and Tammy? You cannot leave Romeros locked up. 

LOL, I knew useless boyfriend was going to pretend to be Renegade. They spent all episode showing he was expendable. 

WTF? How did Russ find Major?

It' s creepy that the "normal rat" ate the brain so willingly. I know it's candy or something but it just creeps me out to think of real rats wanting to eat brains.

Lol, the Brother Love version of Angus is so easy to fool. Raining brains...

Bozzio has been super side-lined since becoming a zombie but the proposal was still a nice moment for Clive.

Aw, I want to care but Levon is so pathetic. He couldn't offer himself as sacrifice or properly save them. I'll be amazed if there's a decent chunk of the iZombie fanbase that actually cares about this relationship.

Yup... a new cure.

[aradia22]

Quote

So it's possible to break free, but it doesn't seem easy.

I feel like I just need to fanwank that it's not just being an M.E. that makes Liv qualified to eat the brains of the victims to solve cases but that she's particularly susceptible to the effects of each brain. Because I feel like all the other zombies are able to fight off the effects of the brains a lot better. The brains don't affect their lives that wildly and they're able to try brains from Blaine in a recreational way. Either Liv has no willpower or she's more susceptible than everyone else.

Quote

When Liv took over, she promised them she would take responsibility. She said she would do the scratching and she would take the blame. They weren't going to continue until she said that. I think this makes her determination to follow through on that promise equivalent to an obligation.

I think my issue is that Liv talked a good game but she still ultimately feels that she was right and she shouldn't have to die and FG are big meanies for following through on their declaration/law. She says she's willing to die but she kept acting like she should have been saved.