S13.E22: Exodus

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, trudysmom said:

One, Mary saying "I know what you went through to get here (sic)". 

I saw a tumblr post on this subject that was interposed with Dean with that angel-poisoned bullet wound laid bare and Sam getting attacked by the vampires. And the caption was basically FU, Mother Mary.

And I saw another one of Mary lecturing Dean on Jack needing to "see Lucifer through his own eyes-not yours" and the smug and condescending look on her face was the biggest turn-off of all. Luckily, Jensen played that scene as if he was just tuning her out. Not sure that that was the reaction Buck Lemming wanted out of him, but that's what they got and good on him for trying to give us that small grace. 

Tone-deaf writing is the perfect descriptor in both cases.

Words cannot describe how much I simply despise the Mary character, at this point, and especially after this episode.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Myrelle

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Where did they get the gas for the bus?  Just curious.  I don't think we've seen anyone drive anything motorized in the AU (though I'd imagine they'd come in handy to get past angry vamps.)  

 

I'm going with the Northern Sector.  Oh hey look, Trump got his wall -- it really is the Apocalypse World.

[Casseiopeia]

39 minutes ago, SueB said:

 

I'm going with the Northern Sector.  Oh hey look, Trump got his wall -- it really is the Apocalypse World.

What I don't get is why Michael needs his little map with army men.  Who is he showing that too?    And since angels in Riftworld can teleport why did AU Castiel have to drive up in an SUV? Or try to escape RW Castiel (who can't teleport) in the SUV?

I am guessing that maybe Bobby had some gas at his salvage yard?

[devlin]

I don’t understand what the writers were going for in this episode with regards to Mary. With all the examples of her interactions with dean mentioned by previous posters(  sorry I don’t know how to quote previous posts on my phone), are we meant to dislike her? I love dean and as a result I want Mary gone and I don’t think that’s what the writers were going for.

[sarthaz]

9 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

What I don't get is why Michael needs his little map with army men.  Who is he showing that too?    And since angels in Riftworld can teleport why did AU Castiel have to drive up in an SUV? Or try to escape RW Castiel (who can't teleport) in the SUV?

I am guessing that maybe Bobby had some gas at his salvage yard?

None of it makes any damn sense. None of it. I hate this plot. At this point, I'd rather watch them hanging out with Amelia, Benny, and "Ezekiel".

[SueB]

9 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

What I don't get is why Michael needs his little map with army men.  Who is he showing that too?    And since angels in Riftworld can teleport why did AU Castiel have to drive up in an SUV? Or try to escape RW Castiel (who can't teleport) in the SUV?

I am guessing that maybe Bobby had some gas at his salvage yard?

Admiral Ackbar phoned: It's a TRAP!  But seriously, I think they wanted to kill the resistance leadership and getting them all in around the map with Kevin there would do the job.  It's possible they really are moving their forces to the south and didn't care if the information was scene, but I presumed they wanted to draw them into the room.

[sarthaz]

7 hours ago, devlin said:

I don’t understand what the writers were going for in this episode with regards to Mary. With all the examples of her interactions with dean mentioned by previous posters(  sorry I don’t know how to quote previous posts on my phone), are we meant to dislike her? I love dean and as a result I want Mary gone and I don’t think that’s what the writers were going for.

I adore Sam Smith, but I want Mary gone as well. I hope the writers have realized it just doesn't work with her and have a plan to give her a graceful exit without hurting the boys.  Having her stay in AW by choice would work for that end.

[BoxManLocke]

The way Mary is written is so detached it feels like Sam Smith should play the character in a cynical, don't-care-about-anybody way. But they're still asking her to pull the loving mother card and it's so at odds with what she's saying, it makes people even angrier.

Between "I know what you went through to get here" and "shut up and let Jack get to know his daddy" Mary felt like a character that was there just to take the piss.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

The way Mary is written is so detached it feels like Sam Smith should play the character in a cynical, don't-care-about-anybody way. But they're still asking her to pull the loving mother card and it's so at odds with what she's saying, it makes people even angrier.

Between "I know what you went through to get here" and "shut up and let Jack get to know his daddy" Mary felt like a character that was there just to take the piss.

The thing for me is, what she said about Jack wasn't necessarily wrong (except, you know, 'daddy' is Satan ffs). Coming from another character it would have been annoying, but... acceptable. But for them to have Mary say this to Dean, ugh. And for Mary to say she knows what they went through is just... UGH. They want us to have empathy or sympathy for this woman who shows none to her own sons (the boys WE love and care about), while having kindness to spare towards virtual strangers. It is like they want us to hate her. Guess what Mary. While you were in heaven with your boys for the past thirty years, they were fighting an apocalypse, thanks to this 'father' you want Jack to know. Oh and also? Thanks to you. So please, fuck off with your lectures, and when you're done fucking off from that, fuck off some more.

Edited May 15, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
spelling

[SueB]

I had no problem with her advice about Jack.  I think she was spot on.

I had a MAJOR issue with her "I know what you went through."  

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Thanks to you. So please, fuck off with your lectures, and when you're done fucking off from that, fuck off some more.

I legit LOL'd at this.  I am henceforth adopting this as my go-to dismissal of the asshats that show up in my life.  This is fantastic.

[catrox14]

Mary is an asshole.  I've no empathy nor caring for her anymore.  And I think this all because they think they are creating a "complex female character" with Mary.  She reminds me of Gwen in Torchwood who I hated more than any other female character ever and it was a good " I love to hate her way" just hated her because she was also a Mary Sue. Like ultimate Mary Sue.

Now, if they give Mary some major consequences for her stupidity and utter lack of awareness, I'll be more tolerant. I mean I'll hate her forever, but I'll tolerate her because she will reap what she has sown.

[bozodegama]

Wow, people really hating the episode and the peripheral characters like Mary and Lucifer.  I liked Exodus and watched it a few times.  My only issue with the episodes lately is a serious lack of good rock music.  They haven't had too much cool music this season.  Time for some Hendrix during the finale.  Or The Band.  

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

I had no problem with her advice about Jack.  I think she was spot on.

I had a MAJOR issue with her "I know what you went through."  

I don't think the advice was bad (though again: LUCIFER), I just think she had no business delivering it.

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I legit LOL'd at this.  I am henceforth adopting this as my go-to dismissal of the asshats that show up in my life.  This is fantastic.

Full disclosure: I stole it from a someecard. It hangs above my desk at work:

 

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Wow, people really hating the episode and the peripheral characters like Mary and Lucifer.  I liked Exodus and watched it a few times.  My only issue with the episodes lately is a serious lack of good rock music.  They haven't had too much cool music this season.  Time for some Hendrix during the finale.  Or The Band.  

I didn't actually hate the episode, just some of the characterizations (and Mary - I hate Mary). Agree, I would like some great music again. And corny as it is by now, I know I'm gonna get all emotional when Carry On My Wayward Son cues up on Thursday.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Wow, people really hating the episode and the peripheral characters like Mary and Lucifer.  I liked Exodus and watched it a few times.  My only issue with the episodes lately is a serious lack of good rock music.  They haven't had too much cool music this season.  Time for some Hendrix during the finale.  Or The Band.  

TBF, I've hated Mary since like midway s12...so...this just adds to her already blown characterization for me.

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think the advice was bad (though again: LUCIFER), I just think she had no business delivering it.

Full disclosure: I stole it from a someecard. It hangs above my desk at work:

 

LOOOOL. That's amazing. I am stealing this. 

[catrox14]

Of all things I really disliked about this episode, Mary wasn't the thing I hated the most.

I hated the AWFUL music used when they were bringing the AU rebels to 'our' world. What the hell was that?

Is there someone new working on the score? I ask because I found so completely ill fitting for the show.

[trxr4kids]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Admiral Ackbar phoned: It's a TRAP! 

I do not understand that reference! Seriously, I had to look it up <dodges rotten tomatoes from Star Wars fans>

 

14 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

What I don't get is why Michael needs his little map with army men.

IKR, where did the army men even come from, I thought they/he mostly scorched the earth but apparently Little Green Army Men always live on <eye roll to infinity>

 

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Full disclosure: I stole it from a someecard. It hangs above my desk at work:

 

Amazing! I might have a t shirt made : )

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Mary is an asshole.  I've no empathy nor caring for her anymore.  And I think this all because they think they are creating a "complex female character" with Mary.

ITA with the bolded part. The way they keep pronouncing this view of "complex female character" from on high doesn't help the glaring fact that, IMO they're not delivering. I legit don't get how they think her being degrees of badass, dumbass, stern, patronizing and condescending is doing anything other than exacerbating the problem with the character which IMO is that she's shallow.

Jody is/has been a good example of a complex female character within the show: she's intelligent, compassionate, flippant/snarky, competent, vulnerable and badass and the dialogue and other characters never have to prop her up by giving her false significance.

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Of all things I really disliked about this episode, Mary wasn't the thing I hated the most.

I hated the AWFUL music used when they were bringing the AU rebels to 'our' world. What the hell was that?

Is there someone new working on the score? I ask because I found so completely ill fitting for the show.

I agree 1000% about the music. It's been awful since Dabb took over IMO. Little classic rock and annoying as hell loud background music. I checked several months ago, and the same two guys are still listed, so I have to believe the change comes from TPTB. So we not only get fewer scenes with the boys, lousy characters (Lucifer, Mary) shoved down our throats, but the music is going to crap as well. THANKS DABB - AND FUCK YOU.

[MysteryGuest]

4 hours ago, bozodegama said:

Wow, people really hating the episode and the peripheral characters like Mary and Lucifer.  I liked Exodus and watched it a few times.  My only issue with the episodes lately is a serious lack of good rock music.  They haven't had too much cool music this season.  Time for some Hendrix during the finale.  Or The Band.  

I didn't hate the episode, I actually liked it.  But I have reached my tolerance level with Lucifer.  Actually, I reached that at the beginning of last season.  And I will always wish for better writing.

[BoxManLocke]

Lucifer bullshitting his way to Jack thanks to everybody else going full retard at the same time was a pretty big part of the episode. Also Mary was awful and Nazi Castiel was unfortunately made into a thing. Let's not forget about killing Gabriel in that horribly directed fight scene.

 

I won't lie, there's very little I can think of that I didn't hate in that episode. A few conversations here and there. That's slim.

[Bergamot]

On 5/15/2018 at 1:02 AM, Casseiopeia said:

What I don't get is why Michael needs his little map with army men.

This didn't bother me too much, because I've seen it in World War II movies, and it kind of fits with the way AU Michael had all his subordinates marching around in paramilitary uniforms and saluting and barking "All Hail Michael!" Another example being when they were going to execute Charlie, and they didn't just have an angel kill her, but had to march her outside ceremoniously, and have an angel read an official order of execution from an official parchment document, and then actually bring out an official executioner in a black hood. It all seems childish, but from the beginning the angels on the show have acted like a bunch of children. AU Michael has a lot of swagger, but he is really nothing more than a child playing a game of war with a collection of toy soldiers (by which I mean the other angels, not the toy army men.)

Anyway, that's the way I saw it -- as another example of how the angels, since God abandoned them, have been playing games like a bunch of deadly, dysfunctional children. I would rather see it that way, that AU Michael and his angels like playing war and think they are being cool, than have it be that it is the writers who actually think all these military trappings are cool.

[S Cook Productions]

On 5/15/2018 at 1:02 AM, Casseiopeia said:

What I don't get is why Michael needs his little map with army men.  Who is he showing that too?    And since angels in Riftworld can teleport why did AU Castiel have to drive up in an SUV? Or try to escape RW Castiel (who can't teleport) in the SUV?

I am guessing that maybe Bobby had some gas at his salvage yard?

I’m choosing to adopt a head canon that I’ve read numerous places about this: AU!Cas cannot teleport because his wings have been clipped. He’d been tortured for millennia relentlessly by the angels (maybe even AU!Naomi), which is why he is the way he is...a complete dirtbag with a milky eye and a twitch, who only knows torture. That’s also why he told our Cas that they were the same. And our Cas agreeed. If Sam/Dean and good humanity weren’t there to make sure he stayed on the straight and narrow- our Cas could have easily gone down the road of Au!Cas. Put that way, you almost feel bad for the guy...

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I’m choosing to adopt a head canon that I’ve read numerous places about this: AU!Cas cannot teleport because his wings have been clipped. He’d been tortured for millennia relentlessly by the angels (maybe even AU!Naomi), which is why he is the way he is...a complete dirtbag with a milky eye and a twitch, who only knows torture. That’s also why he told our Cas that they were the same. And our Cas agreeed. If Sam/Dean and good humanity weren’t there to make sure he stayed on the straight and narrow- our Cas could have easily gone down the road of Au!Cas. Put that way, you almost feel bad for the guy...

IMO, these are the kind of torturous contortions we, as fans, shouldn't have to do to explain away a character or their behaviors to ourselves. If they didn't do crap like this just for the shock value (ZOMG! it's Torture!Cas!! adjsjeijiikllf) then we wouldn't have to. I mean seriously, this entire scene was wholly unnecessary to the story. I didn't feel bad for the guy, I mostly just had to resist laughing out loud at it.

Edited May 16, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
extra word. Will I ever have a post I don't have to edit? *le sigh*

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO, these are the kind of torturous contortions we, as fans, shouldn't have to do to explain away a character or their behaviors to ourselves. If they didn't do crap like this just for the shock value (ZOMG! it's Torture!Cas!! adjsjeijiikllf) then it we wouldn't have to. I mean seriously, this entire scene was wholly unnecessary to the story. I didn't feel bad for the guy, I mostly just had to resist laughing out loud at it.

Yes, that scene was awful, unnecessary, and nonsensical.  It was a total vanity scene for Misha.  I have nothing against him, but the writers need to think of the show as a whole and not what certain actors want to do.  I'm not saying I want actors to be miserable, but I am saying I need shows to make sense.  And, for the most part actors arent' considered the most underpaid profession, so they can take one or ten for the team.

[Jonesy]

Was the episode perfect--no.  But I thought overall it was very good and did well in integrating a lot of characters well.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

Was the episode perfect--no.  But I thought overall it was very good and did well in integrating a lot of characters well.

Agreed, it wasn't perfect.  But I think this season's storyline is too cumbersome to get to the end any other way.  They short-handed a lot of plots...Mary, Jack, AU Michael,  while focusing too much on plots we could have done without, Lucifer, Gabriel, etc.  We weren't really shown any of Mary and Jack's time in the AU, actually helping the people and bonding with them, so we were left to assume an awful lot.  I think that's part of the reason that Mary's words rang a bit false about wanting to stay behind and help, and trusting Jack to make good decisions.  We didn't get to see any of that. 

We got a crap ton of Lucifer, and that's always too much for me.  And while I don't dislike Gabriel, we could have easily done without his retconned storyline.  HIs only real purpose was as a source of grace to open the rift, and I think with a bit of creative thinking, they could have come up with something else.  They managed to have Rowena find a spell to extend the life of the grace to keep the rift open, so something magical could have worked.  Bringing all the old characters back seemed like a good idea in the beginning, but became a bit of a joke toward the end.  I love Charlie, and I will forever be pissed at how the show ended her character, but AU Charlie doesn't really make up for that.  And even though I find myself almost liking Ketch now, he's another character they could have done without.  They wasted too much time throwing in everything but the kitchen sink, and neglected to really flesh out any of their storylines.  Especially AU Michael.  As the "big bad", what do we really know about him?  The idea of the AU wasn't a bad one, but they pretty much wasted the potential, IMO.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

It was a total vanity scene for Misha.  I have nothing against him, but the writers need to think of the show as a whole and not what certain actors want to do.

Wait. What?  Are you actually suggesting that Misha went to the writers and asked Cas to be written as a Nazi/Torturer so he could play the role? I don't believe that for one damn minute.  I get that some folks don't like him nor Cas but to suggest he got this scene written for himself...seems pretty unlikely.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait. What?  Are you actually suggesting that Misha went to the writers and asked Cas to be written as a Nazi/Torturer so he could play the role? I don't believe that for one damn minute.  I get that some folks don't like him nor Cas but to suggest he got this scene written for himself...seems pretty unlikely.

I don't not like him.  I don't care for Cas, but Misha seems like a nice person. But, I've heard that he likes to do accents and be able to act differently than Cas.  So, while I'm not suggesting that he specifically asked for THIS to be written, I think the writers did know that he wanted to play a different character and do an accent and this is what they came up with.

[ILoveReading]

Someone at JIBCon asked Misha how Cas ended up like that in the AU.

He said it was because he wasn't sent to grip Dean tight and raise him from perdition.  But was instead sent to raise someone else from Perdition.  He didn't say who but it was pretty clear who he meant and one thing lead to another. 

I did like that AU Cas was a true blue solider because that means that Dean's influence on Cas was the major reason he rebelled and joined Team Free will.

I did have to laugh, at Charlie.  They keep telling us that she's this amazing solider who Ketch was so lucky to get to go on a mission with but both times we've seen her she's been captured and almost killed and needed to be rescued.   Show, don't tell, Dabb.  

I also was really bothered by the "he's lost people line."  Really Mary your saying that Dean of all people.*  You know what Sam and Dean have been through?  Even if she did it obviously didn't effect her one way or the other.  She seems to care about the suffering of everyone but her own sons. 

Just last episode, (I think) Jack got cocky and over confidant thinking he can take out Michael.  Mary stepped into try and offer some guidance because she recognized Jack was about to make a bad decision.  Why is she suddenly so confidant he won't buy what Lucifer is selling?  Ketch, the men of Letters.  Mary isn't exactly the best judge of character. 

I get where Mary is coming from about Jack having to see for himself, because in one sense I agree, but Jack is still young and very impressionable.   But there are things between leave Jack alone and don't let him talk to Lucifer at all.   This show seems to be stuck in an all or nothing approach.  If your kid wants to take candy from a man in van, you don't leave them alone and let them learn for themselves why its a bad thing.  Lucifer is making an impression on Jack.  That's becoming evident by the "father"  Alarm bells should be going off right there. 

I also disliked that once again they're trying to push this leader Sam trope.

I didn't love or hate this ep it was just kind of middle of the road.  Way to much time going down memory lane with Lucifer, where there are so many other story lines to wrap up. 

I wonder if they're going to tell the rebels they can't get back home to help. 

*I know Sam has lost people too, but the line was directed at Dean which is why I singled him out.

Edited May 16, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't not like him.  I don't care for Cas, but Misha seems like a nice person. But, I've heard that he likes to do accents and be able to act differently than Cas.  So, while I'm not suggesting that he specifically asked for THIS to be written, I think the writers did know that he wanted to play a different character and do an accent and this is what they came up with.

He already did an accent with Empty Cas. And frankly once someone calls it a "vanity" scene then I think that is disparaging the actor. It's like saying Jensen likes doing action scenes so they write them but it's for his vanity. Or Jared likes the emotional Sam work so they give him more emotional Sam stuff so that would be 'vanity' as well.  

IMO, that was all Buck Leming writing from the jump and nothing to do with Misha seeking to fulfill his "vanity".  YMMV

[sarthaz]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

He already did an accent with Empty Cas. And frankly once someone calls it a "vanity" scene then I think that is disparaging the actor. It's like saying Jensen likes doing action scenes so they write them but it's for his vanity. Or Jared likes the emotional Sam work so they give him more emotional Sam stuff so that would be 'vanity' as well.  

IMO, that was all Buck Leming writing from the jump and nothing to do with Misha seeking to fulfill his "vanity".  YMMV

Buckleming has a long history of creating stupid shit like this because they think it's funny or shocking. That's why all their scripts suck. I'm sure this was wholly their idea, although I'm not thrilled that Thomas Wright didn't adjust when it was clear how laughable it was.

[MysteryGuest]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

MO, that was all Buck Leming writing from the jump and nothing to do with Misha seeking to fulfill his "vanity".

Whoever's idea it was, it wasn't very well thought out.  I could barely understand what Misha was saying, and it was difficult not to sort of laugh at the costume, hair, accent, etc.  I'm not sure they were going for laughs, since they wanted us to see AU Cas as this master torturer, but I don't think it worked.  And then they killed him.  I saw it as another instance of just...why bother?

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Someone at JIBCon asked Misha how Cas ended up like that in the AU.

He said it was because he wasn't sent to grip Dean tight and raise him from perdition.  But was instead sent to raise someone else from Perdition.  He didn't say who but it was pretty clear who he meant and one thing lead to another. 

So is he saying he was sent to raise Hitler? For Michael? Because a) OMFG if that's what SuckLemming's intention was, and b) OMFG if we were supposed to reach that little conclusion on our own. What the actual fuck? LOLOL!!

 

27 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

You know what Sam and Dean have been through?  Even if she did it obviously didn't effect her one way or the other.  She seems to care about the suffering of everyone but her own sons. 

Damnit, every time I think I'm over that line, I see it again and my BP skyrockets. Really, you insensitive bitch? Do you? I think know. And the worst thing is, the entire message of the line could've been changed by a couple words. "I know can't imagine what you went through to get here". Boom. Whole different impression.

[Pondlass1]

It was unintentionally hilarious. I'm sure that's not what they were going for.  

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He already did an accent with Empty Cas. And frankly once someone calls it a "vanity" scene then I think that is disparaging the actor. It's like saying Jensen likes doing action scenes so they write them but it's for his vanity. Or Jared likes the emotional Sam work so they give him more emotional Sam stuff so that would be 'vanity' as well.  

That's not how I meant it.  Maybe I used the term incorrectly, but I just meant that it was written for the good of him, and not the good of the show.  And, I'll stand by that, whosever idea it was.  And, yes, anytime they write scenes because an actor likes to do that kind of scene AND it makes little to no sense in the series, I would call that a vanity scene whoever it was.  But, I don't mean it in a disparaging way to the actor.  Especially since I don't think any of these actors have big egos.  They mostly just do what they're told.  But, if writers are writing it that way for them because they're trying to please the actor (obviously not inherently wrong unless like I said it's nonsensical) that's not serving the show as a whole.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So is he saying he was sent to raise Hitler? For Michael? Because a) OMFG if that's what SuckLemming's intention was, and b) OMFG if we were supposed to reach that little conclusion on our own. What the actual fuck? LOLOL!!

I didn't get that from the episode. It seemed to me it was more that Dean wasn't born, so Cas couldn't save him and  Dean's influence on his life wasn't there. So instead he was  a soldier and ended up a torturer of humans.  I never had the impression that Castiel raised Hitler from the dead.  Like at all. Besides that would completely counter act that Hitler's soul was in a pocketwatch like a year ago and that Dean killed Hitler.  I think if Misha said that he was joking.

If that is what BL was trying to say, well they can fuck off.  And when they are done fucking off, they can fuck off again.  That would be the ultimate character assassination for God and Castiel.

[catrox14]

I did a little Twitter search and found the following: 

Doesn't sound like Misha was too happy about this for Cas.  Even Alt-Cas

https://twitter.com/i/moments/995244808355700737

[Castiels Cat]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's not how I meant it.  Maybe I used the term incorrectly, but I just meant that it was written for the good of him, and not the good of the show.  And, I'll stand by that, whosever idea it was.  And, yes, anytime they write scenes because an actor likes to do that kind of scene AND it makes little to no sense in the series, I would call that a vanity scene whoever it was.  But, I don't mean it in a disparaging way to the actor.  Especially since I don't think any of these actors have big egos.  They mostly just do what they're told.  But, if writers are writing it that way for them because they're trying to please the actor (obviously not inherently wrong unless like I said it's nonsensical) that's not serving the show as a whole.

Yes.  Before Cas met Dean he was a soldier following orders.  Our Michael was  better leader than AU Michael.  Heaven was a strict  hierarchy with harsh punishment for breaking protocol but nothing along the lines of what we have seen from AU Michael.

AU Michael is a brutal fascist megliomanic torturing despot hellbent on anhiliating humanity who killed his brothers for funsies.

And AU Cas has an accent and perhaps also had nascent sadist tendencies too maybe because of the way AU Michael ran things.  

[sarthaz]

This thread makes me sad. I hope the finale doesn't suck.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Buckleming has a long history of creating stupid shit like this because they think it's funny or shocking. That's why all their scripts suck. I'm sure this was wholly their idea, although I'm not thrilled that Thomas Wright didn't adjust when it was clear how laughable it was.

Ummm.  It looked to me like the entire thing was shot over the top by everyone as high camp.  I think everyone knew it was camp.  At least directing, acting and producing.  Ketch was acting out of a british WWIi pow film. Cas... the Nazi interrogator from rhe same film.  Charlie the Did all made up.  I have to Assume that it was written deliberately using the tropes.

Imo the entire point of the sequence was Cas vs. Cas.to foreshadow Michael vs. Michael in the finale. JMO.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/15/2018 at 1:10 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing for me is, what she said about Jack wasn't necessarily wrong (except, you know, 'daddy' is Satan ffs). Coming from another character it would have been annoying, but... acceptable. But for them to have Mary say this to Dean, ugh. And for Mary to say she knows what they went through is just... UGH. They want us to have empathy or sympathy for this woman who shows none to her own sons (the boys WE love and care about), while having kindness to spare towards virtual strangers. It is like they want us to hate her. Guess what Mary. While you were in heaven with your boys for the past thirty years, they were fighting an apocalypse, thanks to this 'father' you want Jack to know. Oh and also? Thanks to you. So please, fuck off with your lectures, and when you're done fucking off from that, fuck off some more.

 

She did not want Jack to get fo know his father because he is his dad. 

She knew Jack was not going to let the Winchesters make that decision for him nor should they.  Jack had to learn who Lucifer was for himself.

Jack had to See for himself that Lucifer was bad rather than be told he was bad.  And guess what she is right.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Imo the entire point of the sequence was Cas vs. Cas.to foreshadow Michael vs. Michael in the finale. JMO.

IMO, it had nothing to do with Michael. It was to show that our Cas is fully with humanity and is as far from AU Cas and even s4 Cas and to show just how much influence Dean had in his  and how he's chosen humanity aka Dean Winchester time after time.

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, catrox14 said:

IMO, it had nothing to do with Michael. It was to show that our Cas is fully with humanity and is as far from AU Cas and even s4 Cas and to show just how much influence Dean had in his  and how he's chosen humanity aka Dean Winchester time after time.

We met Cas before Dean and he was not a Nazi torturer?!!

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Jack had to learn who Lucifer was for himself.

 

And he didn't.  Because Jack doesn't know what Lucifer did to Sam. Lucifer isn't going to confess it.  Jack will have to learn that from someone else ...or go rummaging through Lucifer's brain to find out the real truth of Lucifer.

So Mary is being completely stupid WRT to Jack.

Just now, Castiels Cat said:

We met Cas before Dean and he was not a Nazi torturer?!!

I'm sorry. I can't parse this comment question. I don't know what you are saying here in response to my comment. 

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Ummm.  It looked to me like the entire thing was shot over the top by everyone as high camp.  I think everyone knew it was camp.  At least directing, acting and producing.  Ketch was acting out of a british WWIi pow film. Cas... the Nazi interrogator from rhe same film.  Charlie the Did all made up.  I have to Assume that it was written deliberately using the tropes.

 

Oh no. This is giving them entirely too much credit. In my opinion there is no way in heaven or hell that this was done with camp in mind. No way. And if they try to explain it away like that one day, I will call bullshit long and loud.

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, catrox14 said:

And he didn't.  Because Jack doesn't know what Lucifer did to Sam. Lucifer isn't going to confess it.  Jack will have to learn that from someone else ...or go rummaging through Lucifer's brain to find out the real truth of Lucifer.

So Mary is being completely stupid WRT to Jack.

Jack will learn in the finale.  And no.  Telling someone is not learning.  Often they need to see the evidence to believe... especially if it is their parent.

This is basic human nature.   It is not a math equation. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

She did not want Jack to get fo know his father because he is his dad. 

She knew Jack was not going to let the Winchesters make that decision for him nor should they.  Jack had to learn who Lucifer was for himself.

Jack had to See for himself that Lucifer was bad rather than be told he was bad.  And guess what she is right.

Except Jack spent a lot of time on this side of the AU learning about who his father was. And presumably what he did to Sam? And humanity? And leaving him alone with Lucifer to 'find out for himself' was and is patently stupid. He's the king of lies and manipulation. And even if ALL that weren't true, Mary just hasn't earned the right to talk to Dean like that.

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh no. This is giving them entirely too much credit. In my opinion there is no way in heaven or hell that this was done with camp in mind. No way. And if they try to explain it away like that one day, I will call bullshit long and loud.

Everyone acting in that scene was playing it camp. Ketch. CHARLIE and Cas. At least in the torture sequence.  Look At the false eyelashes and luosticjnon Charlie. Cas' performance and Ketch's were both based on WWIi movie tropes albeit Ketch's,was based on a ""nobler paradigm and Cas on pulp film.  The actors and production sure as hell played it camp. 

It remindrd me of the way Tarentino's military action sequences played in "Inglorious Bastarfs" played... camp and full of tropes... in that film only the scenes with Weiss and Fassbinder worked because the acting was sublime. 

Ketch hit the right time.  No one else did.  

Very deliberate.  Failed. Lmao camp hot mess.

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except Jack spent a lot of time on this side of the AU learning about who his father was. And presumably what he did to Sam? And humanity? And leaving him alone with Lucifer to 'find out for himself' was and is patently stupid. He's the king of lies and manipulation. And even if ALL that weren't true, Mary just hasn't earned the right to talk to Dean like that.

Not the same thing as seeing his father for himself which is a vety real human desire every adoptive child would have, even if he were conflicted about it because his dad were Lucifer.

[catrox14]

A person can learn about their own family history, including people who are now dead and can't speak to them to inform their own lives and make assessments.  Like Dean could tell Jack that Lucifer tortured Sam for 100 years. Jack can choose to disbelieve Dean or he can go to Lucifer and ask him what exactly happened. Or he could pick up a copy of the Winchester Gospels and learn all about it. 

This writing is just more of the stupid bullshit strawmen scenarios wherein the ONE THING that needs to be said and brought up isn't for the sake of stupid plot and angst.

Jack doesn't NEED to spend time with Lucifer to understand his own power at all. Not really because the show has said that Jack is the most powerful entity in the universe.