S13.E22: Exodus

[gonzosgirrl]

Sam and Dean devise a plan that will save innocent lives. Meanwhile, Jack continues to wrestle with the consequences of his decisions.

[Lemuria]

Well, there goes the episode.  Damn Yankees.  Does anyone know if CW will be showing it again on Saturday?  (And could some kind person do a short recap when the ep's over?  Thank you, thank you!)

[BoxManLocke]

Alright, 15 minutes in

 

I am happy to report the writing is atrocious

[gonzosgirrl]

Huh. Well that was... something.  

On the good side, mechanic Dean was hot.

I thought there was supposed to be a surprise cameo at the end. Did I miss something?

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, the writing for this isn't great, but I did enjoy parts of it.

I am still a fan of Jack. I can't help it; I think they're at least portraying him well. I understand his struggle this episode with Lucifer. He has a crap father but it should also be his decision on how to handle Lucifer. Everyone means well, and I get the overprotection since Lucifer has done really evil things and he's portraying himself like a victim, but (I really hate to say it) Mary's right. Jack needs to learn it for himself. I think keeping an eye on him is the right call as Jack is vulnerable and still very naive, but he also can't be told what to do. Like young people, they don't really take the word "no" well at all. Jack listened, he wanted to know about his history and family, and made a call by the end. Plus, at the end of the day, Jack still followed Kelly and her advice to him. And Jack, to his credit, never looked that impressed with Lucifer, even when listening to him. I think Alex Calvert made it clear through his facial expressions that he was listening, but it didn't mean he was completely buying what he was selling. He was hopeful for anything he could get, but he didn't just jump into trusting Lucifer. Some of his facial expressions seemed more like he was thinking, and perhaps wishing for a father he could be proud of, who he could look up to. And honestly, I'm not going to punish Jack for mourning Lucifer a little bit. He's a bad guy, but he's still Jack's father. 

I liked Sam and Dean's reunion scene. It was really nice. 

The torture scene was pretty interesting. Dean gave the order to Cas to use his angel magic on the guy who set up Charlie and Ketch. 

Seriously, Mary should stay in Apocalypse World. She's already been selfish enough, and Sam and Dean really don't need her. Plus, she gets off the show. It's a win-win. 

Lucifer's annoying, but what else is new? I did appreciate Gabriel setting things straight. But yeah, not buying Lucifer suddenly feeling things. If this is going to be some plot for next season, where Lucifer starts developing empathy to be redeemed, then I won't be happy. I'm now worried that they may, very well, have Jack join Lucifer at some point, since everyone keeps insisting that Jack will never join him. If none of the characters expressed that out loud, I'd be in my comfort zone with Jack never trusting Lucifer. 

So, there IS (or was) an AU Cas...with a weird German accent. Misha, maybe stop with the accents. They're not quite your forte.

Gabriel's dead, which is mostly pointless since he was barely brought back from the dead only to die. But Sam trapped Lucifer in Apocalypse World, which I'm fine with, because finally someone did something. 

[Katy M]

1. Why di d AU Castiel, in the same vessel, for that matter, have a German accent?  

2.  Jack, at least, can teleport. Doesn't seen like it would have taken more than that hour and 57 minutes for him to take people 2 at a time to the rift.

3. can we stop wasting time looking at what's going on when rifts are about to close?5.

4.  Whoo-hoo, Go, Sammy.  I'm sure Lucifer being left with Michael with go south, but I like that just for once, SAm didn't just help out the bad guy because "we need him."

5. Which should be number 1. BOBBY!!!! Whoo-Hoo!!!!

6. Lucifer had cuffs on him, (which apparently didn't work), so I won't complain too much abut Mary punching him. But, Sam punched an angel.  Remember in Season 4, when Dean punched Cas.  Cas didn't react at all, and Dean hurt his hand.  But, now, I guess you can just punch angels.  It's kind of like demons used to be stronger than humans, until they weren't.

[catrox14]

Well, I thought that was a hot mess.

Awful score. 

F/U Buck Leming for allowing Lucifer to say that Kelly took his virginity. You fucking assholes. HE RAPED KELLY. They are the fucking worst.

Why did they not all just RUN THROUGH THE RIFT...I Hate PLOT CONTRIVANCE WRITING LOL

Dean did what exactly other than fix the bus and decide okay Mom and Sam are right. Also, why wouldn't Sam have told Dean what he was going to do with Lucifer? There is no point to Sam not telling Dean nor of having Dean say "Okay you deal with Lucifer". WTF

Dean was dead on right and so was AU Bobby. 

I don't appreciate the attempt to manipulate with using Dean's family theme and having Bobby welcome them to HIS family.  Shut up. That really offended me. I don't much like AU Bobby anymore than our Bobby. Well done show.

Charlie is a mannequin and annoying.

The best part of the episode was AU Cas vs Cas. (Oh hey look my spec since s12 about an AU Cas existing was true. It wasn't quite what I suspected but hey I am taking the points LOL). 

Also, Dean and Cas have each killed their own doppelgangers. That's kind of a cool parallel.

AU Michael deserved way more screen time this season. I found Christian Keyes to be really engaging.  And I really still want him to beat Lucifer. Again.

I swear if Lucifer gets redemption. URGGGGGGHH.

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Evil Cas.

That wasn't really a surprise because Misha spoiled it. I was expecting someone else TBH.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

AU Michael deserved way more screen time this season. I found Christian Keyes to be really engaging.

And very easy on the eyes IMO which is always a bonus :)

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

1. Why di d AU Castiel, in the same vessel, for that matter, have a German accent?  

I couldn't decide if it was a German or a Russian accent. 

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

And very easy on the eyes IMO which is always a bonus :)

Michael seems to always have attractive vessels even Adam was nice looking. Maybe it's a requirement LOL

[MysteryGuest]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I thought there was supposed to be a surprise cameo at the end. Did I miss something?

The surprise cameo was AU Cas.  I love Cas and Misha, but for me, AU Cas was stupid.  If they're going put him in the same meat suit, which is absurd, IMO, then he should have the same accent.  Thankfully, it was over before it really began.

I'm glad no apology was needed between Mary and her sons, and liked the idea of just taking everyone back with them.  I was so hoping that Sam was going to stab Lucifer with the archangel blade, but of course not.  I never get what I want!!  Sorry to see Gabriel die, but he got his redemption, such as it was.  

Jack bonding with Lucifer was a bit hard to take, as was the tear in Lucifer's eye during his scene with Gabriel.  So are we to believe he really does feel bad about what he's done?  Not so sure about that.

I thought the hug between Sam and Charlie was cute.  He was so happy to see her for that split second.  

Next week should be interesting.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I swear if Lucifer gets redemption. URGGGGGGHH.

Tht is not enough urgggghh for that scenario.  RAmp it up 1000.

 

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I couldn't decide if it was a German or a Russian accent. 

Either way.  Why?

 

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm glad no apology was needed between Mary and her sons, and liked the idea of just taking everyone back with them. 

Yes, thank goodness.  Nobody really did anything wrong, so we didn't need any hour long apologies.  

 

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Jack bonding with Lucifer was a bit hard to take,

I've always figured Jack should be evil, so it won't bother me one bit, if he "falls under Lucifer's spell."

 

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I thought the hug between Sam and Charlie was cute.  He was so happy to see her for that split second.  

And, I loved the "oh yeah I don't really know you, sorry."  And, Charlie's look of 'what the heck, dude?"  I don't really care for Charlie all that much, but that was kind of funny.

[BoxManLocke]

That was embarrassing. So bad I even burst out laughing at some point. This is what happens when you give BuckLeming pivotal episodes to write.

 

In classic BuckLeming fashion, the fawning over Lucifer was in full effect in here, and they were pushing this disgusting redemption story of his as much as possible. The instant he started talking to Jack, all the other characters turned into complete idiots. Dean couldn't stop bellowing like a caveman, Sam and Castiel forgot their words and therefore couldn't explain in what way Lucifer was a giant piece of garbage, and Mary was apparently totally cool with all of it. It allowed Lucifer to tell his own truth to Jack, regurgitating his season 5 arguments with nobody to point out his obvious lies (except Gabriel, but in private, of course).

This was all done so poorly everything about Jack's so-called crisis of conscience didn't feel convincing at all, and let's not forget we hadn't seen him since episode 13 so again, how am I supposed to care ? He didn't even get a conversation with anyone of TFW.

 

As expected, there were so many characters to deal with that there was barely any time for Sam/Dean/Mary. Sam instantly being fine with Mary's behaviour and coming up with that stupid-ass plan to bring everybody in their world was just par for the course. Nothing about their relationship makes sense, they're giving me zero reason to care about Mary, but they're still sticking with her for some reason.

 

By the way, did I mention the editing was dreadful in this episode ? We were talking about this a couple of days ago, funny it should pop up again now. Dialogue was being interrupted every 45 seconds with a conversation from other characters. Way to break any tension there could have been.

 

That little operation to bring back Ketch and Charlie was completely pointless and led to one of the stupidest moments ever on the show : that ridiculous Torturer/Nazi Castiel.

Why even do this ? Why did he have to have a german accent and the Hilter haircut ? This looked like a prank shot for the gag reel. And the way they set up that parallel was ridiculous, with Sam and Dean instantly asking Castiel to torture the guy who sold out Charlie and Ketch, so we'd think WOW Castiel is just like his AW version ! Give me a break. This whole thing was done with the subtlety of a middle-school film project, and absolutely nothing came out of this.

 

Anyway, the ending was just the icing on the cake. Another shitty fight scene, just like last week. That last sequence had the look and feel of a bad 90s SF show (HOLY SHIT THAT MUSIC. Do not use it on the show ever again). Michael shows up alone and the brothers watch Lucifer and Michael battle it out as if they were Harry Potter characters, and they don't blink an eye as Gabriel gets slaughtered (woohoo what a useful comeback that was ! Fuck you, writers). If all of them had taken him on they would have stood a chance, but nope, can't have that.

Sam made the right choice by shoving Lucifer face out of the rift, but it's clear BuckLeming wanted to make him look like the bad guy. Fuck 'em.

 

But yay, all these people I don't give a shit about were saved ! We got all these old characters back as if that made the show just as good as it was before ! Yay fanservice.

 

And now the guy who's been in like three episodes the entire season is going to be the main attraction of the finale. Boy that sure sounds great !

 

I can't stress enough how dreadful this whole thing was, and the entire season for that matter. Still very unsure I'll be sticking around for season 14.

 

Fuck Buckleming.

Edited May 11, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The surprise cameo was AU Cas.  I love Cas and Misha, but for me, AU Cas was stupid.  If they're going put him in the same meat suit, which is absurd, IMO, then he should have the same accent.  Thankfully, it was over before it really began.

I'm glad no apology was needed between Mary and her sons, and liked the idea of just taking everyone back with them.  I was so hoping that Sam was going to stab Lucifer with the archangel blade, but of course not.  I never get what I want!!  Sorry to see Gabriel die, but he got his redemption, such as it was.  

Jack bonding with Lucifer was a bit hard to take, as was the tear in Lucifer's eye during his scene with Gabriel.  So are we to believe he really does feel bad about what he's done?  Not so sure about that.

I thought the hug between Sam and Charlie was cute.  He was so happy to see her for that split second.  

Next week should be interesting.

That's weird. It's not a cameo if you're a regular, but okay. LOL!

I enjoyed the Dean/Sam reunion and the bro-hug. Also that Dean put Sam's guilt to rest with one simple sentence, and then showed his faith in him by agreeing [Sam] would deal with Lucifer. I also like that Dean insisted they should kill Lucifer, because they should've KILLED LUCIFER. He is going to betray them again. Always. This stupid attempt at rehab-ing the character is bogus. And having him declare Kelly took his virginity, when he essentially raped her? That's a low water mark for the show, IMO.

I didn't get the preview on the Canadian broadcast, but I'm guessing they need some grace to open the rift so Bobby and the AUers can get back and there is only one Archangel on our side of the rift...

[SueB]

First, the glorious:
- My crackship SS Samwitch or Samwena is flying it's flag PROUDLY.  The two of them hanging out at the party. *sigh* Someone needs to write the after-party scene.

Next, the happy:
- It. Actually. Worked.  Whut?  I mean, it'll all go pear-shaped next episode, but for a brief shining moment, the boys have each other, Cas, Mary, Jack in the bunker plus an AU Bobby and an AU Charlie.  
- Good plan Sammy.  I liked the negotiated solution between Mary & Dean.  For a minute, I was worried when he talked about Mary wanting to be with 'the people' that he was thinking of it as a comparison.  But I like that it sparked a solution and I liked the solution.
- Competency Kink points: Dean the mechanic. Sam & Dean's cogent arguement to the resistance team. 
- Good on Mary for trusting Jack.  The boys should listen to her on this.
- Dean making it clear that Sam had nothing to feel bad about.  I liked their reunion.
- Gabriel and Lucifer following Dean's orders to guard the perimeter.  Hee.
- In general the way they mixed and matched people for conversations.  I really liked seeing that.
- Bobby being happy. 

The intense:
- Jack and Lucifer. Lucifer lies with the truth and I think Jack can see he's not a good guy, BUT I also think Jack was hoping to rescue Lucifer.  To redeem his father (ala Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader)**.  And now he can't.  Jack's sadness at the end was awful.  Why did no one go to him?  This is going to end in tears.  Major kudos to Alex Calvert for really selling Jack's dilemna.  I need my cinnamon roll to smile again.  I miss that.  
- Luci & Gabe exchange: I enjoyed that. 
- The bus trip, Rowena trying to keep the portal open, the people coming through.  I liked it.  Yes, they moved slower than the molasses in January but I liked the scene.

The mmmkay:
- Too easy to kill those AU angels.  Three angels vs three hunters (Winchesters) in hand to hand combat.  I love me some Winchesters but these guys should not be that successful.
- Killing Gabe like a redshirt.  That was not a worthy death. 

The "throw salt on it and never let it come back again"
- Evil Cas with a Hitler haircut, German accent, and shades of that torture dude from Raiders of the Lost Arc.  Nope.  And of course there was some random "you and I are the same" threat -- WTF does that mean, I don't want anything wrong with Cas and this implies there might be.  
 

**Let me be clear: I don't WANT Lucifer redeemed. He's awful to the core.  And his tears may be genuine but he's had more than enough opportunity to change his stripes.  He's experiencing regret.  Well, that's well earned regret.  But he'll rationalize it away.  I'm just worried that Jack, having lost the opporunity to try (and fail) to redeem Lucifer is going to be left angry at Sam and Dean.

Edited May 11, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

That last sequence had the look and feel of a bad 90s SF show (HOLY SHIT THAT MUSIC. Do not use it on the show ever again)

THANK YOU. The score was awful. I swear I think Buck Leming think they are reduxing awful 70's TV music. It was shit. And I'm sad about it because Gruska and Lennertz have done some of the best music in this show or any.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I liked the negotiated solution between Mary & Dean.  For a minute, I was worried when he talked about Mary wanting to be with 'the people' that he was thinking of it as a comparison.  But I like that it sparked a solution and I liked the solution.

It doesn't change the fact that she still chose 'her people' over her sons. Not for me anyway. I hope she gets shoved back through the rift.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't get the preview on the Canadian broadcast, but I'm guessing they need some grace to open the rift so Bobby and the AUers can get back and there is only one Archangel on our side of the rift...

I don't think that's going to matter.  Lucifer and Michael are planning on opening it from their side.

The only way that AU Cas thing would have had any importance is if Cas killed Cas offscreen, or if there was a scuffle and we lost track of who was who and they had us wondering. But, they didn't even bother to do that. It was a waste of time.  It's like there's some sort of torture quota the show has to fill each season.

[Bergamot]

Okay, when I saw the preview where Mary said she could not abandon the people in the AU world because they were being slaughtered, I thought she meant the humans of that world in general. I didn't realize she meant her little band of 25 people. So sure, bring them back with you into our world -- I would have suggested that myself if I knew it was just that group she couldn't leave. It really wasn't even that difficult to do. But was that little group supposed to be the entire human population left in the AU world? Because if not, Mary was still leaving people to be slaughtered -- just not ones she had met personally. Whatever.

I never noticed it that much before, but in the last couple episodes I have been particularly unimpressed with the actress who plays Mary. There is no depth to her performance, no nuance or layers. When she smiled brightly and said, "You would really do that for them?", she might as well have been talking about including her friends in a dinner invitation. No wonder Mary comes across as so cold and shallow.

[Wynne88]

I should go into all episodes with really low expectations for enjoyment; there's nowhere to go but up.  For the most part, looking at it as a whole, I actually kind of enjoyed it.

Plenty to nit-pick, of course.  In addition to what others have already pointed out, I did wonder why Bobby only welcomed Dean and Sam into his 'family'.  What's Cas, chopped liver?

I get that the showrunners got hammered for killing Charlie, but making AU Charlie a clone of the original isn't cool.  They've basically duplicated Bobby too.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Dean the mechanic.

Competency aside, I'm sick to death of Dean the Mechanic. It's like yes we get it. But was there seriously NOT one person in the AU who could fix a bus? No wonder Michael is slaughtering them LOL. 

 

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It doesn't change the fact that she still chose 'her people' over her sons. Not for me anyway. I hope she gets shoved back through the rift.

SAME

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

Okay, when I saw the preview where Mary said she could not abandon the people in the AU world because they were being slaughtered, I thought she meant the humans of that world in general. I didn't realize she meant her little band of 25 people. So sure, bring them back with you into our world -- I would have suggested that myself if I knew it was just that group she couldn't leave. It really wasn't even that difficult to do. But was that little group supposed to be the entire human population left in the AU world? Because if not, Mary was still leaving people to be slaughtered -- just not ones she had met personally. Whatever.

I never noticed it that much before, but in the last couple episodes I have been particularly unimpressed with the actress who plays Mary. There is no depth to her performance, no nuance or layers. When she smiled brightly and said, "You would really do that for them?", she might as well have been talking about including her friends in a dinner invitation. No wonder Mary comes across as so cold and shallow.

Yeah, I was expecting her to say, when Dean asked how many she planned to bring, some obscenely big number, like 200 or hell, even just over 100. But just 25? That's literally nothing!

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

But was that little group supposed to be the entire human population left in the AU world?

Nope, Bobby mentioned other people left behind.  They're just regrouping.

 

Just now, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, I was expecting her to say, when Dean asked how many she planned to bring, some obscenely big number, like 200 or hell, even just over 100. But just 25? That's literally nothing!

Yeah, I was waiting for 25...hundred.

[bearcatfan]

There’s no way Lucifer is going to say that he raped Kelly. Especially not to Jack. Having Lucifer say that Kelly took his virginity does not mean that anyone else believes that. Lucifer is not the one to have speak truths. 

[redfish]

Seriously? They brought Gabriel back just to kill him in the most pointless way before the finale? Why bring him back now that Heaven is low on angel juice to keep Heaven afloat?

Why do I get the feeling that Jack is going to go darkside at the end of the season or the next season once he finds out what Sam did? They shouldn't have at least not be surprised that JAck was curious about knowing his father.

And don't they need archangel grace to do the spell again? No Gabriel and no Lucifer, it's going to be hard to reopen the dimensional door.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The only way that AU Cas thing would have had any importance is if Cas killed Cas offscreen, or if there was a scuffle and we lost track of who was who and they had us wondering. But, they didn't even bother to do that. It was a waste of time.  It's like there's some sort of torture quota the show has to fill each season.

I'm not entirely unconvinced there won't be some other Cas lurking around like Empty Cas. Didn't someone say in a previous episode that going into the rift changes someone? Or did I make that up in my head.

[Castiels Cat]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, I thought that was a hot mess.

Awful score. 

F/U Buck Leming for allowing Lucifer to say that Kelly took his virginity. You fucking assholes. HE RAPED KELLY. They are the fucking worst.

Why did they not all just RUN THROUGH THE RIFT...I Hate PLOT CONTRIVANCE WRITING LOL

Dean did what exactly other than fix the bus and decide okay Mom and Sam are right. Also, why wouldn't Sam have told Dean what he was going to do with Lucifer? There is no point to Sam not telling Dean nor of having Dean say "Okay you deal with Lucifer". WTF

Dean was dead on right and so was AU Bobby. 

I don't appreciate the attempt to manipulate with using Dean's family theme and having Bobby welcome them to HIS family.  Shut up. That really offended me. I don't much like AU Bobby anymore than our Bobby. Well done show.

Charlie is a mannequin and annoying.

The best part of the episode was AU Cas vs Cas. (Oh hey look my spec since s12 about an AU Cas existing was true. It wasn't quite what I suspected but hey I am taking the points LOL). 

Also, Dean and Cas have each killed their own doppelgangers. That's kind of a cool parallel.

AU Michael deserved way more screen time this season. I found Christian Keyes to be really engaging.  And I really still want him to beat Lucifer. Again.

I swear if Lucifer gets redemption. URGGGGGGHH.

That wasn't really a surprise because Misha spoiled it. I was expecting someone else TBH.

As I recall Kelly came on to Lucifer's vessel and he went along with it.  He did decide to impregnate her.  Her death is ultimately all on him.  She wanted to have sex so she was not raped.  He did not wear the President to trick her into having sex with her so the intent was not rape. She was the aggressor.  He decided why not.  It is a mistaken identity trope which admittedly is tone deaf.

Bringing back dead characters thatvoverstayed their welcome is annoying. No question but Bobby is the leader of the displaced people and that speech was for them.

Dean has been shown to be not himself.  He was more together tonight but still not taking charge and kind of a rage monster. Whatever.  The entire season has been dealing with his emotional arc over losing Mary again, losing her just like he lost Sam in season 5 triggering PTSD about Apocalypse stuff... yada yada.... setting up Dean!Michael which is totally happening.

The writing had totally been focused on him all season... and

He really doesn't have to be running around shooting rhings all of the time.  For Dean his emotional arcs link to his big storylines always since the pilot.

Shaking head in disbelief...

Sam has the history with Lucifer and deserved to get that one win and he fcked it up again so... But Sam sure feels good in the short term. Sucks too because I thought they would let him get Gabe's blade and finish him.

Now Dean has to say yes to Michael to save the world and who knows who else will die because Lucifer lived another day.  Sam fails a lot with his assassination plans.

Dean... he would have stayed and gotten Gabe's blade and finished him, then gone after AU Michael himself then and there.  But Dean has a death wish... and Dean had no fear.

Not seeing how the writing favors Sam and is against Dean at all.

[BoxManLocke]

Just now, redfish said:

Seriously? They brought Gabriel back just to kill him in the most pointless way before the finale? Why bring him back now that Heaven is low on angel juice to keep Heaven afloat?

 

I hope 10 minutes of dick jokes were worth ruining the legacy of one of the most beloved characters on the show.

 

They didn't even give him the opportunity to go off decently. He died like a complete loser.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, bearcatfan said:

There’s no way Lucifer is going to say that he raped Kelly. Especially not to Jack. Having Lucifer say that Kelly took his virginity does not mean that anyone else believes that. Lucifer is not the one to have speak truths. 

The point is that the writers gave no one, not even Kelly the chance to say it was rape from the get go. That's the problem. Not that Lucifer is lying about it now, but that the show itself has yet to have ANYONE on screen call it what it is. It's gross.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not entirely unconvinced there won't be some other Cas lurking around like Empty Cas. Didn't someone say in a previous episode that going into the rift changes someone? Or did I make that up in my head.

Lucifer said it weakened him the first time he went through. 

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

As I recall Kelly came on to Lucifer's vessel and he went along with it.  He did decide to impregnate her.  Her death is ultimately all on him.  She wanted to have sex so she was not raped. 

She wanted to have sex with the man she loved, who was the President, not with Satan who was possessing the man she loved.  That still counts as rape in my book.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam has the history with Lucifer and deserved to get that one win and he fcked it up again so... But Sam sure feels good in the short term. Sucks too because I thought they would let him get Gabe's blade and finish him.

To be fair to Sam, I'm sure he thought that Lucifer was as good as dead if left him to AU!Michael.

But it still gets me that they never listen to Dean. They should've killed him while they had the chance.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

As I recall Kelly came on to Lucifer's vessel and he went along with it.  He did decide to impregnate her.  Her death is ultimately all on him.  She wanted to have sex so she was not raped.  He did not wear the President to trick her into having sex with her so the intent was not rape. She was the aggressor.  He decided why not.  It is a mistaken identity trope which admittedly is tone deaf.

Actually, it doesn't matter if she came onto him first or not. Kelly thought she was having sex with President Jeff. She could not consent to sex with Lucifer because she did not know that's who was controlling President Jeff. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by catrox14

[Pondlass1]

I wish we'd seen more of Michael this season.  He's always seemed forgettable before. I don't know why he's been ignored all this time when it's actually all about him.  And the actor is easy on the eye.  They missed an opportunity I think.

Lucifer is as annoying as ever and I burst out laughing at AU Castiel. Crikey!!!?

[MysteryGuest]

Yeah, I have to say that the AU Cas was really an unfortunate choice.  I actually enjoyed Empty Cas and his weird accent, but this was just too absurd.  Again, if AU Cas was still going to possess Jimmy N. in the AU, then why would he dress and sound like that?  Just a bad idea all the way around.

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

Yeah, I have to say that the AU Cas was really an unfortunate choice.  I actually enjoyed Empty Cas and his weird accent, but this was just too absurd.  Again, if AU Cas was still going to possess Jimmy N. in the AU, then why would he dress and sound like that?  Just a bad idea all the way around.

I liked that Cas got to kill him but I didn't really see the point of it TBH. I mean other than cause they could? 

[Castiels Cat]

46 minutes ago, SueB said:

First, the glorious:
- My crackship SS Samwitch or Samwena is flying it's flag PROUDLY.  The two of them hanging out at the party. *sigh* Someone needs to write the after-party scene.

Next, the happy:
- It. Actually. Worked.  Whut?  I mean, it'll all go pear-shaped next episode, but for a brief shining moment, the boys have each other, Cas, Mary, Jack in the bunker plus an AU Bobby and an AU Charlie.  
- Good plan Sammy.  I liked the negotiated solution between Mary & Dean.  For a minute, I was worried when he talked about Mary wanting to be with 'the people' that he was thinking of it as a comparison.  But I like that it sparked a solution and I liked the solution.
- Competency Kink points: Dean the mechanic. Sam & Dean's cogent arguement to the resistance team. 
- Good on Mary for trusting Jack.  The boys should listen to her on this.
- Dean making it clear that Sam had nothing to feel bad about.  I liked their reunion.
- Gabriel and Lucifer following Dean's orders to guard the perimeter.  Hee.
- In general the way they mixed and matched people for conversations.  I really liked seeing that.
- Bobby being happy. 

The intense:
- Jack and Lucifer. Lucifer lies with the truth and I think Jack can see he's not a good guy, BUT I also think Jack was hoping to rescue Lucifer.  To redeem his father (ala Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader)**.  And now he can't.  Jack's sadness at the end was awful.  Why did no one go to him?  This is going to end in tears.  Major kudos to Alex Calvert for really selling Jack's dilemna.  I need my cinnamon roll to smile again.  I miss that.  
- Luci & Gabe exchange: I enjoyed that. 
- The bus trip, Rowena trying to keep the portal open, the people coming through.  I liked it.  Yes, they moved slower than the molasses in January but I liked the scene.

The mmmkay:
- Too easy to kill those AU angels.  Three angels vs three hunters (Winchesters) in hand to hand combat.  I love me some Winchesters but these guys should not be that successful.
- Killing Gabe like a redshirt.  That was not a worthy death. 

The "throw salt on it and never let it come back again"
- Evil Cas with a Hitler haircut, German accent, and shades of that torture dude from Raiders of the Lost Arc.  Nope.  And of course there was some random "you and I are the same" threat -- WTF does that mean, I don't want anything wrong with Cas and this implies there might be.  
 

**Let me be clear: I don't WANT Lucifer redeemed. He's awful to the core.  And his tears may be genuine but he's had more than enough opportunity to change his stripes.  He's experiencing regret.  Well, that's well earned regret.  But he'll rationalize it away.  I'm just worried that Jack, having lost the opporunity to try (and fail) to redeem Lucifer is going to be left angry at Sam and Dean.

 

Yes. Jack was so alone at the end and everyone else was so happy.  Something bad is in store for him.  Anger management issues.  He will not be happy with Lucifer's decision.

Short lived happiness before things fall apart are the worst.

Gabe dying was obvious for me. He was a red shirt.  It was telegraphed by the limp grace riffs.  I honestly thought it would be Lucifer after Gabe gave him the truth speech though.  AU Michael is so much worse than Lucifer. At least Lucifer feels guilty for selling the SPNverse out.

I got inglorious Bastards But it had been a long while since I saw Raiders.  Ummm... no one believes me however we spent too long on that empty weirdo and had too many episodes wirh masks and stolen identities for Cas to be okay.

"**Let me be clear: I don't WANT Lucifer redeemed. He's awful to the core.  And his tears may be genuine but he's had more than enough opportunity to change his stripes.  He's experiencing regret.  Well, that's well earned regret.  But he'll rationalize it away.  I'm just worried that Jack, having lost the opporunity to try (and fail) to redeem Lucifer is going to be left angry at Sam and Dean."

Lucifer feels guilty about what he is doing.but yeah he is doing it anyway.... Jack is unstable with anger management issues.  This will end badly.  Is Sam going to tell him why Lucifer did not make it through. Will Sam lie and Jack will know.

Jack losing it is dangerous for everyone and will be devastating for him.  The reason God had angels summarily execute nephilim was that they were unstable.  So... Just one more potential powderkeg for next week.

Definitely getting Dean!Michael and by the simplest route... to defeat AU Michael after he invades and starts a killing.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

I was really irritated with the writing that had Gabriel wax poetic about how Jack has Kelly and Winchesters influencing him but not a word about Castiel's influence and protecting him? And understanding him? Wow.  Screw you Buck Lemming.  Way to erase Cas from mattering to his not!Son. 

[Castiels Cat]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

To be fair to Sam, I'm sure he thought that Lucifer was as good as dead if left him to AU!Michael.

But it still gets me that they never listen to Dean. They should've killed him while they had the chance.

Dean is usually right.  Unfortunately Gabe was a red shirt.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I liked that Cas got to kill him but I didn't really see the point of it TBH. I mean other than cause they could? 

It was not Jimmy Novak. It was some German guy.

11 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I wish we'd seen more of Michael this season.  He's always seemed forgettable before. I don't know why he's been ignored all this time when it's actually all about him.  And the actor is easy on the eye.  They missed an opportunity I think.

Lucifer is as annoying as ever and I burst out laughing at AU Castiel. Crikey!!!?

I have not really liked him until today.  He really thinks he has won.

[BoxManLocke]

Just thinking about the last scene in the bunker.

Resurrected characters (some multiple times), copies of others from an alternate universe, a dozen faceless characters we're supposed to want to protect, and the only new character this season sitting in a corner moping, probably contemplating how grossly he was underused this season.

 

What is even this show anymore ? I feel like I'm watching a bad parody.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean is usually right.  Unfortunately Gabe was a red shirt.

It was not Jimmy Novak. It was some German guy.

He was an angel. He possessed a vessel that looks like Jimmy Novak. I didn't say IT WAS Jimmy Novak. LOL 

Just now, BoxManLocke said:

Just thinking about the last scene in the bunker.

Resurrected characters (some multiple times), copies of others from an alternate universe, a dozen faceless characters we're supposed to want to protect, and the only new character this season sitting in a corner moping, probably contemplating how grossly he was underused this season.

Hey, I'm sure they think they are being so clever.

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

3. can we stop wasting time looking at what's going on when rifts are about to close?5.

This almost never happens, but my wife and I were both yelling at the screen during that scene.

[Castiels Cat]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

She wanted to have sex with the man she loved, who was the President, not with Satan who was possessing the man she loved.  That still counts as rape in my book.

It is a well worn trope.  Are you a fan or Rocky Horror Picture Show.  Doesn't Frank have sex with both Janet and and Brad by pretending to be the other and both were virgins at the time.  And Frank was the seducer.

The film is a huge cult classic.  I have never seen anyone creduced.

The trope dates back at least to Shakespeare.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He was an angel. He possessed a vessel that looks like Jimmy Novak. I didn't say IT WAS Jimmy Novak. LOL 

Hey, I'm sure they think they are being so clever.

Replied to someone else who wondered why Jimmy Novak spoke German accented English .  He spoke German accented English because whoever Castiel possessed in the AU was a native German speaker who looked like Jimmy Novak.

Perhaps replies combined.

[BoxManLocke]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He was an angel. He possessed a vessel that looks like Jimmy Novak. I didn't say IT WAS Jimmy Novak. LOL 

Hey, I'm sure they think they are being so clever.

 

You know just yesterday I caught a few scenes from The Flash while my wife was watching. One of them featured 5 versions of the same characters from different universes, and they were all so caricatural (badly acted versions from different countries) and the dialogue was so awful I just laughed and said "well at least the characters from SPN's alternate universe aren't that bad !".

 

Then we get Nazi Castiel.

 

So many things from other shows I used to make fun of and consider trash TV are now on Supernatural and the writers seem incredibly proud of what they've achieved. I'm not sure the show can come back from that.

[companionenvy]

So much WTF here...

- Why bring Gabriel back to kill him off so soon afterwards in a watered down version of his original "taking a stand" moment? 

- Why would a Castiel who had taken Jimmy Novak from Illinois as his vessel speak with a German accent? Why waste the awesome concept of AU-Cas in two minutes of screen time? Also, when our Cas said that they were the same, did anyone else think he was going to take AU-Cas's grace? Which would have made sense, as Cas is still not at full power.

- There is a lot of space between "Jack cannot talk to his father" and "We're going to let Lucifer talk and not bother to puncture any of the self-serving lies he tells him." Respecting Jack's wish to know his father does not mean allowing Lucifer's warped version of the narrative to go unchallenged. And the scene in which Cas stood there listening, and then randomly ran off at some point to give Sam and Dean the urgent message that Lucifer was talking to Jack was bizarrely paced. Like, he'd been standing there for several minutes. Now you're going to go sound the alarm?

- The Exodus plan made no sense, because Sam and Dean didn't have any solid intel or aid to offer, and it should have been obvious, to Bobby at least, that crossing the portal was a dicey enough thing that there wasn't a guarantee that they'd be able to get back. "Come to my bunker in another universe; we have a library" shouldn't actually be a great sales pitch for people who are committed to staying and fighting it out in the AU.

-Please don't try to make redeemed Lucifer happen. 

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is a well worn trope.  Are you a fan or Rocky Horror Picture Show.  Doesn't Frank have sex with both Janet and and Brad by pretending to be the other and both were virgins at the time.  And Frank was the seducer.

The film is a huge cult classic.  I have never seen anyone creduced.

The trope dates back at least to Shakespeare.

It dates back much further than Shakespeare, but values change. Just because it is a trope doesn't mean it isn't, IMO, a form of rape. Lying to a partner is one thing. Pretending to be a totally different person is another; that isn't meaningful consent.  

[Ria]

41 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It doesn't change the fact that she still chose 'her people' over her sons. Not for me anyway. I hope she gets shoved back through the rift.

What’s wrong with her choice? People choosing to stay and fight alongside their comrades instead of running home to their families is usually, and rightly, considered noble, selfless and heroic. 

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

So much WTF here...

- Why bring Gabriel back to kill him off so soon afterwards in a watered down version of his original "taking a stand" moment? 

- Why would a Castiel who had taken Jimmy Novak from Illinois as his vessel speak with a German accent? Why waste the awesome concept of AU-Cas in two minutes of screen time? Also, when our Cas said that they were the same, did anyone else think he was going to take AU-Cas's grace? Which would have made sense, as Cas is still not at full power.

- There is a lot of space between "Jack cannot talk to his father" and "We're going to let Lucifer talk and not bother to puncture any of the self-serving lies he tells him." Respecting Jack's wish to know his father does not mean allowing Lucifer's warped version of the narrative to go unchallenged. And the scene in which Cas stood there listening, and then randomly ran off at some point to give Sam and Dean the urgent message that Lucifer was talking to Jack was bizarrely paced. Like, he'd been standing there for several minutes. Now you're going to go sound the alarm?

- The Exodus plan made no sense, because Sam and Dean didn't have any solid intel or aid to offer, and it should have been obvious, to Bobby at least, that crossing the portal was a dicey enough thing that there wasn't a guarantee that they'd be able to get back. "Come to my bunker in another universe; we have a library" shouldn't actually be a great sales pitch for people who are committed to staying and fighting it out in the AU.

-Please don't try to make redeemed Lucifer happen. 

It dates back much further than Shakespeare, but values change. Just because it is a trope doesn't mean it isn't, IMO, a form of rape. Lying to a partner is one thing. Pretending to be a totally different person is another; that isn't meaningful consent.  

Lucifer is a crappy entity.  Yeah i know Gods assume identies and Zeus assumed animal forms and rays of light for sex but  I was having trouble recalling  the mistaken identity trope from much before Shakespeare off the top of my head... wbich is what that was.  Kelly made the assumption and Lucifer went along with it as a means to an end without regard to the fact that she would die bearing Jack.  

He is horrible.

The entire point of bringing him back was to kill him off again because he is another Apocalyptic harbinger leading to Apocalypse 2.0 with Dean!Michael. They have been checking everything off, making some substitutions... for instance Jack instead of Jessie and Gog/Magog instead of Lilith.  After ladt week he was quite obviously a red shirt walking.

In the AU there is a German speaking guy that looks like Jimmy Novak who us Castiel's vessel. Maybe the Novel's immigrated to the U.S. at a later date. It is an AU.  Any number if things are different. In this Apocalypse Castiel is a master torturer with a German accent.

Interfering with Jack and Lucifer was a losing battle. Mary was right.  Lucifer is the Prince of Lies.  Very good liars and narcissists are consummate manipulators.

Dean and Sam stopped an Apocalypse.  Dean and Sam wanted mom home.  They do have a library. And obviously Dean is going to save two worlds by going to Michael.  

It is a very straight road to Dean!Michael.

Well he feels guilty and that did not stop him.  Lucifer'sactions and Sam's actions are just going to send Jack over the edge so no.... that family drama is a side story and it's own powder keg I suspect.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

t is a well worn trope.  Are you a fan or Rocky Horror Picture Show.  Doesn't Frank have sex with both Janet and and Brad by pretending to be the other and both were virgins at the time.  And Frank was the seducer.

The film is a huge cult classic.  I have never seen anyone creduced.

The trope dates back at least to Shakespeare.

Trope or not, it's a lack of informed consent for Kelly which is rape. I'm not going to actually change my mind.

[S Cook Productions]

AU!Cas made me laugh too (although I also couldn’t tell if the accent was German and Russian), but I was fascinated by it because it was so weird...and short. Glad Cas got to kill him though. Someone else mentioned that neither Gabe nor Bobby included Cas when talking about the Winchester’s and they should have...he’s been with them throughout this whole journey! So I didn’t mind AU!Cas because at least it finally put the focus on Cas for a hot minute!

I liked this ep for the most part, and I’m excited about next week...but I’m not excited about hellatus after. 

I’m definitely now thinking Michael!Dean too. 

Oh and lastly, agreed that AU!Michael is a good villain and easy on the eyes....but then again, what guy on this show isn’t?? Seems to me that they’re all hot!

[S Cook Productions]

Oh and one more thing that bothered me...yet another Trump reference. Kaia did it too. I think it’s a continuity error because how can there be both a President Trump and a President Jefferson Rooney??

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

trope from much before Shakespeare off the top of my head... wbich is what that was.  Kelly made the assumption and Lucifer went along with it as a means to an end without regard to the fact that she would die bearing Jack.  

He is horrible.

Wait, what?  Kelly didn't make any assumptions. She BELIEVED that she was having sex with the same man she's known for a long time and been an aide to.  Like why would she have  considered that he was not President Jeff?

Edited May 11, 2018 by catrox14