S06.E08: The Summit

[kikaha]

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Like you, I want to believe that about Stan would never kill anybody he didn't have to. And so I do.

Stan did kill someone he didn't have to: he shot that meek Soviet official, as revenge IIRC for his boss' murder.  

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, kikaha said:

Stan did kill someone he didn't have to: he shot that meek Soviet official, as revenge IIRC for his boss' murder.  

He, in cold blood, murdered a young first tour KGB officer who wanted to be a doctor and was leaving the KGB, for Philip's murder of his partner, Amador.  (That was in self defense for Philip.)

Edited May 23, 2018 by Umbelina

[Ina123]

I just re-watched "Justified". Claudia is not that far removed from the Mags Bennet character that Margot Martindale played in that show. Yet, there's her comedic stint in the short-lived "The Millers". This lady has amazing range. I think she's one of those actors that I would make me at least try anything she's in.

[Dowel Jones]

She was also Hillary Swank's welfare-dependent mother in the movie Million Dollar Baby.  A very cringe-worthy part but she played it well.

[RedHawk]

On 5/21/2018 at 9:59 PM, dubbel zout said:

I think Renee is there to show Stan has moved on and is happy in his personal life.

And thinking about it more, I would add that Stan needed to be "out of the way" plot-wise during the past ~3 years (the time jump) so that Philip and Elizabeth would be alone after Paige and Henry went off to school, with freedom to come and go as they pleased. If Stan were still coming over randomly for dinners and beers, then it would have been more obvious to him that Elizabeth was always out "working" and also looking more and more stressed and haggard. I'm starting to think that Renee's purpose has been to show that Stan has been occupied with his married life and not so involved in the day-to-day life of the Jennings family any longer. When Stan did drop by to see Philip with beer, one of them said, "Hey, like the old days!" and thus we know Stan and Philip didn't spend so much time together after Renee moved in.

Edited May 23, 2018 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

So, did you catch that a random innocent person justmissed a horrible fate as she walked through the garage? THAT was hella tense for a few seconds and it was almost silent so if you didn't know to look, you missed a wild scene within the scene.

Edited May 23, 2018 by RedHawk

[Umbelina]

I watched the axe scene, a few times.

I was fascinated by how they did it, and they did it quite well.  We only actually saw one hand being chopped off, and that arm looked so real.  Well done.

[RedHawk]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I watched the axe scene, a few times.

I was fascinated by how they did it, and they did it quite well.  We only actually saw one hand being chopped off, and that arm looked so real.  Well done.

Only one hand, but the head got the Countess of Salisbury treatment.

[dubbel zout]

36 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

And thinking about it more, I would add that Stan needed to be "out of the way" plot-wise during the past ~3 years (the time jump) so that Philip and Elizabeth would be alone after Paige and Henry went off to school, with freedom to come and go as they pleased. If Stan were still coming over randomly for dinners and beers, then it would have been more obvious to him that Elizabeth was always out "working" and also looking more and more stressed and haggard. I'm starting to think that Renee's purpose has been to show that Stan has been occupied with his married life and not so involved in the day-to-day life of the Jennings family any longer. When Stan did drop by to see Philip with beer, one of them said, "Hey, like the old days!" and thus we know Stan and Philip didn't spend so much time together after Renee moved in.

I agree with this, and I think Renee is also there to show that Stan is prioritizing this marriage more than he did the one with Sandra.

[Umbelina]

I completely agree that Renee had to be there to distance Stan enough from Philip and Elizabeth that he could see them with new eyes.

I still don't think that's all there is to Renee though.  The show wouldn't have had Philip suspect her if something wasn't up with that.  He's never suspected anyone else.

[dubbel zout]

Had Stan been serious about anyone else up to that point? I know he'd had a few dates, but he himself dismissed them, IIRC, so there was no reason for Philip to suspect anything. Also, I think Renee might have been the first girlfriend Stan introduced to Philip (in a significant way).

Making Renee a big part of the final two episodes (sob!) will annoy me, given her relative lack of importance until now. Sometimes a second wife is just a second wife.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Had Stan been serious about anyone else up to that point? I know he'd had a few dates, but he himself dismissed them, IIRC, so there was no reason for Philip to suspect anything.

There were plenty of reasons, but I think with Philip it was more of a 6th sense.  How many middle aged people do you know that find a PERFECT spouse less than a year after their divorce?  Seriously, men generally remarry, but Renee had every single thing Stan wanted in a woman.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with her, she apparently doesn't even have friends of her own, since she's adopted the people Stan likes, for dinner parties, etc. 

[JennyMominFL]

4 hours to go. I’m so excited

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I just re-watched "Justified". Claudia is not that far removed from the Mags Bennet character that Margot Martindale played in that show. Yet, there's her comedic stint in the short-lived "The Millers". This lady has amazing range. I think she's one of those actors that I would make me at least try anything she's in.

I love her as Audrey, the tough as nails, yet fallible, matriarch in Sneaky Pete.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

6 hours ago, Ina123 said:

in the short-lived "The Millers". This lady has amazing range. I think she's one of those actors that I would make me at least try anything she's in.

I love her as Audrey, the tough as nails, yet fallible, matriarch in Sneaky Pete.

I loved her as the good-hearted file clerk whom Dexter exploited--always in the kindest of ways--and was very sad when the character died of cancer. It was Mags who made her a natural choice for characters with a dark side.

[jjj]

4 hours ago, RedHawk said:

So, did you catch that a random innocent person justmissed a horrible fate as she walked through the garage? THAT was hella tense for a few seconds and it was almost silent so if you didn't know to look, you missed a wild scene within the scene.

This week?  (The Summit?)  Or previous episode in Chicago?  The only garage scene I remember this week is with the painting. 

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

It was Mags who made her a natural choice for characters with a dark side.

I always enjoy the trope of the "helpless little old lady" turning out to be the villain. I don't think of Claudia as a villain per se, but she's not afraid to be ruthless when she has to be. And she's certainly not helpless.

[RedHawk]

3 hours ago, jjj said:

This week?  (The Summit?)  Or previous episode in Chicago?  The only garage scene I remember this week is with the painting. 

In Chicago. Someone wrote they closed their eyes through the entire scene regarding Marilyn’s body. I may have replied in the wrong thread, need to check. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎22‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 11:30 PM, skippylou said:

There was an undercover FBI agent present at the Garland, Texas terrorist attack in 2015.  When the shooters got out of their cars with their weapons he booked.  He was stopped by local law enforcement fleeing the scene but was released when he identified himself as FBI.  He didn't kill anyone but not stopping a potential mass murder??????????????

Yeah but was he armed? Could he have done anything?

 

On ‎22‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 10:57 PM, Bannon said:

There is the reality that it would be against the law for an undercover FBI agent to kill someone in order to prove himself to a criminal organization. Yes, it is conceivable for such an order to kill to be out of the blue, unforseeable, with the demand that the killing be immediate, with the victim present, resulting in an agent being forced to do it. The reality is that the FBI has a history of pulling agents if that demand appears to be a possibility. The real agent that was the basis of the movie "Donnie Brasco", for instance, was pulled when the FBI thought it possible that the Bonnano family was going to order him to kill someone.

Actually after the statute of limitations expired 'Donnie Brasco' confessed to carrying out hijackings, robberies, burglaries and beating up Mafia debtors in order to protect his cover. 

 Well, things are certainly coming to a head, Philips has confessed all to Liz and she eventually did the same to him. You are SO relieved she decides not to kill the young intern she dupes into bugging the meeting. And Stan finally sees it, it's all coming together. It just seems impossible for the series to wrap it all up in only 2 eps and I can't wait.  

[LisaM]

I am trying to recall exactly what it was that made Stan suddenly suspect his neighbors? Missing Thanksgiving? The conversation with Henry? Still not clear on how he made that leap. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, LisaM said:

I am trying to recall exactly what it was that made Stan suddenly suspect his neighbors? Missing Thanksgiving? The conversation with Henry? Still not clear on how he made that leap. 

Everything.

Mostly?  Henry.

[hellmouse]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

22 minutes ago, LisaM said:

I am trying to recall exactly what it was that made Stan suddenly suspect his neighbors? Missing Thanksgiving? The conversation with Henry? Still not clear on how he made that leap. 

Everything.

Mostly?  Henry.

IMO the trigger was Aderholt telling him about Harvest in Chicago. That brought the whole illegal Russian thing to the forefront of Stan's mind. 

Second, Elizabeth not being there for Thanksgiving and Philip offering a rather lame excuse as to why.

Third, Philip immediately leaving to join Elizabeth (was it the day after Thanksgiving or later the same day? IDK). 

Fourth, Philip's response to Stan asking him what was wrong. For the first time, Philip didn't read Stan very well and gave an answer that Stan just didn't buy. 

Fifth, Henry's inadvertent confirmation of Stan's suspicions about their travel being odd. Henry didn't think it was odd because they did it all the time, his whole life. To Stan, that's even stranger. 

And sixth, to tie it back to the illegals was that the FBI failed to capture Harvest and all of this was while Philip and Elizabeth were out of town. 

That's what got it started and once it was started, he was just looking for someone to confirm or deny his suspicions. No one could flat out deny them, so the ideas get growing. 

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, hellmouse said:

IMO the trigger was Aderholt telling him about Harvest in Chicago. That brought the whole illegal Russian thing to the forefront of Stan's mind. 

Second, Elizabeth not being there for Thanksgiving and Philip offering a rather lame excuse as to why.

Third, Philip immediately leaving to join Elizabeth (was it the day after Thanksgiving or later the same day? IDK). 

Fourth, Philip's response to Stan asking him what was wrong. For the first time, Philip didn't read Stan very well and gave an answer that Stan just didn't buy. 

Fifth, Henry's inadvertent confirmation of Stan's suspicions about their travel being odd. Henry didn't think it was odd because they did it all the time, his whole life. To Stan, that's even stranger. 

And sixth, to tie it back to the illegals was that the FBI failed to capture Harvest and all of this was while Philip and Elizabeth were out of town. 

That's what got it started and once it was started, he was just looking for someone to confirm or deny his suspicions. No one could flat out deny them, so the ideas get growing. 

And before that - Phillip's response to the murders of Genady and Sofia (?).

[John Potts]

At first I couldn't work out what (Nurse) Elizabeth was doing - though having induced her to choke on her own vomit (undignified, but probably not a bad way to go) I would have thought Nurse Elizabeth would clarify that, prior to the ambulance arriving, that they'd cleaned the vomit up (it would be a natural thing to do, even if it's interfering with what an autopsy might discover)

Guess Philip & Elizabeth weren't quite as good at covering their tracks as they thought if Stavos DID notice there was something hinky going on.

I was gutted when Liz took that giant portrait only to burn it. I get why she did, but couldn't she have taken a smaller painting?

Philip "betrayed" you? Sorry Liz, but HE'S the one loyal to your Head of State, not you! I get that you may not like what Gorbachev is (was) doing, but otherwise you're only loyal to yourself. I know people often say "Not my President/Prime minister/whatever" but that's the person you've agreed to serve.

On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 4:09 AM, SeanC said:

Elizabeth's heart very belatedly grew three sizes that day.

That kid doesn't know how lucky he was to escape!

On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 4:38 AM, jjj said:

I thought it was a device that would deliver a poison dart, a favourite Soviet tool for killing, sometimes delivered via umbrella tip.

I think you're right. It would be VERY hard to assassinate somebody in public with a knife and expect to get away. With a dart, it's tricky but possible.

On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 4:53 AM, shura said:

So Stan is the only person who doesn't know the Jenningses are Soviet spies, right? Pastor Tim knows. Stavos knows.

Stavos doesn't know, he just suspects they were "up to something". They could have been defrauding clients, running drugs, cooking the books, in the witness protection program... although in effect, it doesn't really matter because the Jennings cover probably won't stand up to prolonged scrutiny.

On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 5:35 AM, jjj said:

If they are trolling us with the whiffs of Renee subterfuge, they are doing a very good job.  I just watched the bedroom window scene again, and she gives him a Look right before she turns out the light. 

I wouldn't put too much store in that. I remember Alan Dale commenting in filming 24 that they put in these off camera stares to make the viewers wonder what the character is up to (particularly in a show like 24 where even the writers had no idea who was going to turn traitor by the end of the season, but he was used to it from his background in soaps). And it takes up another 10 seconds of screentime that the writers don't have to come up with dialogue for!

Quote

Tara Ariano (Recap) it's not like it's a string of cyanide pearls

For when you need a suicide method that's convenient AND classy!

Quote

Tara Ariano she picks up a garment off the couch to reveal the pair of slinky turquoise underpants she'd planted underneath, she makes sure to draw his attention with a "yikes!"

Loved that little bit of Tradecraft!

The whole McIlrath thing - if it is a real company (in universe, anyway) - I can actually see them trying to get intel on government policy as a means to win contracts. And they'd probably let the kid take the fall for it too. But I loved Liz going "I don't think McIlraith is the right fit for you" - given she didn't stab him, that was practically a declaration of love!

[Erin9]

This episode has a lot of series favorites for me: 

There were a lot of great openers to this show (and I certainly don’t remember all of them!)- but this is one of the all time greats: Philip telling Elizabeth EVERYTHING- that he’d spied on her, that he’d done it for their country. With that- he dispelled her belief that he no longer cared about home. And showed the lengths he’d go to accomplish his goal.  What a way to open an episode. And, of course,  she flipped out, which left us wondering what she’d do with that information. As it turns out- all she did was THINK about it and act on it in a positive manner. Never seemed to consider spilling to Claudia about what Philip had done. Which told you a lot about her and Philip’s relationship right there. And her and Claudia’s. 

Then- there’s the closing. It began and ended with Elizabeth and Philip talking about the coup, him spying on her. It seemed at the beginning they’d hit a rock bottom that even Philip killing the Kimmie op didn’t manage. And that was bad. And yet they’d come around again in the course of an episode. Well done. Impressive feat by the writers. It goes down as one of my favorite episode endings- and there were a lot of amazing ones. 

Their marriage wasn’t fixed- as Elizabeth made clear. But, they were talking to each other, on the same page about work again. Progress was made. Though Philip wisely didn’t just tell her how to contact Oleg when she asked. She was really on his side- but he couldn’t be sure. I’m glad the writers included that moment where he wasn’t yet sure he could trust her with Oleg’s life. It was smart of him. 

It also contains one of my favorite Philip lines ever: I put our country first, which is what you would have done. Nice articulation of exactly where his head was at. And a good way for Elizabeth to get what he’d done. He did what he thought was right. 

It was a great mini character arc for Elizabeth- and easy to see why it was Keri’s Emmy choice. She went from one extreme to the other, believably, in an hour. She finally listened to Philip, thought for herself- didn’t kill the intern or Nesterenko. She not only told Claudia what she thought- that Nesterenko wasn’t bad- but that she had questions. Which wound up putting her even more thoroughly in the anti-coup camp, once she realized how she’d been lied to. And then told Philip everything he needed to tell Oleg about the coup. Wow. They packed a lot in. Especially with Erika’s death. 

My only issue with the episode was the lack of Philip. Which was a season wide issue, with a few exceptions. 

Also- I think this episode shows Elizabeth was done with spying, just like Philip. She’d been burned out and exhausted all season- before the season started really- but kept trudging along anyway to complete her mission. Following orders. Falling deeper into a dark hole, cut off from her family- all of them really- including Paige. 

Regardless of the fact P/E were about to have to run, regardless of the upheaval they knew the coup news would bring to the centre/them....she was finished anyway imo. Realizing the scope of the lie and surely understanding she’d been lied to before, being unwilling to kill the intern when she knew she needed to- really said it all about where she stood on spying. 

This really was an amazing episode. And I didn’t even hit on everything.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

It also contains one of my favorite Philip lines ever: I put our country first, which is what you would have done. Nice articulation of exactly where his head was at. And a good way for Elizabeth to get what he’d done. He did what he thought was right. 

 

This is something that's been striking me re-watching s1. I'm still early in Gregory this is a theme that's *so* consistent throughout the show, that other people are always telling Elizabeth who she should be and what she should think while Philip at most makes an argument to her for why his way of thinking is correct. Even here he's telling her to think for herself. Sure he expects that someone thinking for themselves will agree with him, but he can't know for sure. He's got plenty of good reasons to think she'll disagree with him on her own. But he just gives her all the information he has. She comes to her own conclusion when she thinks about it. 

[Erin9]

On 7/27/2018 at 1:21 PM, sistermagpie said:

This is something that's been striking me re-watching s1. I'm still early in Gregory this is a theme that's *so* consistent throughout the show, that other people are always telling Elizabeth who she should be and what she should think while Philip at most makes an argument to her for why his way of thinking is correct. Even here he's telling her to think for herself. Sure he expects that someone thinking for themselves will agree with him, but he can't know for sure. He's got plenty of good reasons to think she'll disagree with him on her own. But he just gives her all the information he has. She comes to her own conclusion when she thinks about it. 

True. He even tells her to do what she wants with what he just said- while telling her to think about what she’s doing, that she’s still responsible for what she does- despite her orders. 

He doesn’t even say anything about what she should do about him. He put himself in danger telling her- as he said. 

He obviously thinks she should agree. But- he’s telling her to work it out. 

I don’t think the showrunners acknowledge it, but I think Philip did spend the episode concerned she might turn on him. It’s logical, for one thing. It also helps explain some of what little we saw him do. He wasn’t even fully convinced she was on his side when she came in and said she was. He made Elizabeth spell it all out to him so he could deliver the message. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I don’t think the showrunners acknowledge it, but I think Philip did spend the episode concerned she might turn on him. It’s logical, for one thing. It also helps explain some of what little we saw him do. He wasn’t even fully convinced she was on his side when she came in and said she was. He made Elizabeth spell it all out to him so he could deliver the message. 

Yes, it's strange how they seem to want to fight the darkest reading about Philip in that episode even though if you take that away it's as if Philip's just really bored that day and was filling his time doing random stuff. Or trying to keep his mind off his calculator. When I was watching it I totally thought he was spending his day wondering if Elizabeth had ratted him out--isn't that the whole implication of Elizabeth becoming a murderous robot who can't wait to swallow her cyanide pill because the cigarettes are taking too long?

Also, Philip's trying to save the country here. He doesn't want her to turn on Gorbachev either. He gambled on her not being Claudia even though she was allying herself with Claudia and offering Claudia her daughter if she died. I'm not sure how Philip would have reacted if she turned out to be Claudia.

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 7:29 AM, Erin9 said:

@sistermagpie

I was pleased too that Philip was wary enough about Elizabeth to not let her contact Oleg directly. Elizabeth had to spell it all out to him. Which was great for him and us. 

I hadn’t put together what exactly Philip was doing watching that movie, but I think you nailed it.  He was watching a Russian movie reminding himself of what he was dying for, what he’d put first.( I think he expected Elizabeth to betray him.) What a contrast to the Paige propaganda fest. 

Actually in the scene of the Soviet movie that was shown there was exactly those things that Philip detests in the USSR and has now abondeded: that one can't have own opinions but must just follow the the party line. 

That was the theme in a novel of Ilya Ehrenburg in the 20ies, Second Day. But he reversed it in the 50ies in The Thaw where the (according to the Soviet POV) individualistic hero is proven to be right.    

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 7:01 AM, sistermagpie said:

That murder of Erika was pretty gruesome. Was there green paint on the brush or was that just bile? I was listening to the husband's speech as another message to Elizabeth. You and your meetings! For someone who wanted to die to escape pain I like that she still fought like a wildcat. She really never wanted to die. (Not that there's anything wrong with accepting death--I'm very pro-palliative care. But for this character, this was who she was.)

 

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 10:43 AM, MrsWitter said:

While I agree that the actual manner of death was quite graphic, I simply don't see this as another of Elizabeth's "murders" or something that was "disgusting" or "low."  If anything, I saw it as a small act of kindness (at least as far as Elizabeth can be kind)- she stroked her hair and seemed to be gentle and affectionate before killing her.  The actual method of killing her was harsh in some ways, but it was fairly quick and I don't know what other options Elizabeth had to kill her then (outside of her cyanide pill, which she was clearly not giving up). Maybe suffocation by pillow would have been more palatable? This woman was suffering and there seemed to be no going back from the morphine overdose her husband gave her. Death at this point was the kindest option. Also, Erica's seeming struggle or fight to survive seemed largely involuntary- the body tries to protect life even when the mind and/or spirit is ready to let go.

While the manner Elizabeth killed Erika was horrible, I saw just like Mrswitter: as an act of kindness, both towards her and her husband. Erika wasn't really alive any more as a person, only her body was. And I believe that she wanted to die because she couldn't stand pain any more - it was only her body fought back. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 7:29 AM, tennisgurl said:

Really, Liz is more like Paige than she might like to think she is. Paige is painfully trusting when it comes to the people who feed into her beliefs, and so is Elizabeth, its just that Elizabeth has had the same cause for her whole life. She really does still have too much trust in Claudia, and its honestly kind of sad. This has been her whole life, and the idea that its basically been a war for a lifestyle that no longer exists is certainly a bitter pill to swallow. And she has had so many years of being told that this is right, its hard for her to see any nuance. 

Philip on the other hand, is all nuance. As Elizabeth found out, Philip isnt turning his back on the homeland, he is trying to save it. Of course, Philip is also convinced that he is about to give up his life for it, and for the future, killed by the woman he loves. Hence buying his own funeral suit, and taking some time to watch a Russian movie just to get one tiny sliver of home before he goes. Really, its pretty depressing that just popping in Solaris or something is so forbidden. They cant have anything at all from home. Philip and Elizabeth for a long time I think worked because they were so different. Elizabeth was the true believer, Philip was the more critical thinker (that might even be why they got put together) but now its hurting their foundation, because they just think differently. 

Elizabeth is a Soviet person whereas Philip is a Russian (although by no means typical Russian male, just the opposite).

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 8:44 AM, Empress Josephine said:

I never got why Elizabeth hated Claudia so much when they are one in the same. 

Elizabeth began to hate Claudia when she got her and Philip brutally interrogated because she suspected them of treason. To Elizabeth who is the most loyal person just as Philip said to Oleg, that suspicion seemed long to be something she couldn't ever forgive Claudia. And she was right. She shouldn't have. 

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 10:57 AM, MrsWitter said:

Since assisted suicide was not legal, I don't see her husband offering up too much info to the coroner or funeral home. I don't think he needs to even mention Stephanie's presence and I doubt there would be much of an investigation into the cause of her death given her illness.

Despite her illness, she died at home - wouldn't that demand an inquest in the US?

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:16 PM, tpplay said:

The idea that "there's such a thing as morality" has to be one that these two people who are spies MUST have discussed a trillion times before, if we're to believe they're not sociopaths.  (I'm not actually sure I do believe they're not sociopaths, given the remorselessness with which they've murdered people - including scores of innocent people who were just "in the way". But I suppose the writers would like us to believe they're not sociopaths.

Do soldiers discuss "a trillion times" whether it's right to kill a human being? No they didn't, They perhaps thought about it before they did it the first time, but then they get used it. After that, only something unusual raises these ponderings.

Elizabeth isn't a sociopath. She is only trained as soldiers are.

I don't believe she would ever kill on her own, except in situations where she and Paige met the muggers.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎18‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 11:26 AM, MissBluxom said:

I believe there have often been problems with the writing of this show. But in this case - and I can't believe I'm writing this -  I'd like to defend Claudia somewhat. At least until Elizabeth finally kills her.

Claudia grew up in Stalingrad during WW2. There could hardly be any place at any time that was more horrible - except maybe one of the Nazi concentration camps.

Claudia has spent her entire life clinging to the central thought that the Nazis were the worst manifestation of evil ever perpetrated on this world and Russia was the single most heroic nation and deserves to be rewarded tremendously for its sacrifice in defeating the Nazis. I doubt that she ever goes for more than 24 hours thinking about how 20 million (or more) Russians were slaughtered by the Nazis in a completely stupid and insane attempt for them to conquer Russia and take over the whole world.

Claudia witnessed first hand how so many millions of Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. But Russia finally defeated the Nazis and that was the single greatest event in Claudia's life. She has spent her entire life working to see Russia become the world's greatest power and on several occasions she has participated in some schemes that resulted in bringing Russia closer to achieving its ultimate goal - to become the world's leading nation and for Communism to rule the entire world.

I have a friend who was 17 in 1967 and traveled to San Francisco and lived the "Hippy" lifestyle. To this day, all he ever talks about is how great all those Hippies were and how the Hippy movement needs to be reestablished. Nuts? Absolutely. But I think it may be the same kind of mental affliction affecting Claudia. Her entire life revolves around that one central event and she feels a tremendous need to see Russia rewarded and rule the world.

Now, a bunch of people who support Gorbachov and who weren't even alive in WW2 come into power and appear to be giving away all of the gains Claudia has worked so hard to obtain. In Claudia's mind, no one who did not experience the struggle and defeat of the Nazis has any claim to the greatness that is Russia.

Can you put yourself in her shoes?  She must be very close to complete madness at this development and she must be willing to do most anything to stop this from happening. Her own life be damned. Claudia will do anything and everything she can to oust the current leadership - regardless of how it might cause her to suffer and probably die. I think there is little doubt that if she is actively working to overthrow the current leadership, she should expect to be arrested and tortured and then - if she is lucky - put out of her misery in a similar manner as was Nina.

Given all of that, I can feel a little understanding towards her for now finding herself in such a frantic and desperate mental condition.

Of course, I'd still enjoy seeing her stopped with extreme prejudice.  After all, it seems pretty clear to me that she is totally out of her freaking mind.

Good points. 

Only, there are two kinds of good soldiers (and Claudia was a soldier or a partisan during the WW2). When the war ends, some go home and start to build a better life to themselves, their family, their neighborhood and their whole country. But some, just like Claudia, are unable to leave the war behind them. They are stuck with the war and its attitudes and values. They have forgotten why they have fought for.  

There is a good scene in a novel Vasili Grossman, Life and fate. In an isolated house in Stalingrad there are men and women who the first time in their life have a chance to speak freely what kind of country they live in. They aren't just fighting against the Nazis, they are fighting to get a better life after the war. But that never came. The Soviet people saved Stalin's government, but after the he betrayed their hopes for better life and started new purges.   

On ‎19‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 8:53 PM, sistermagpie said:

What Claudia's revealing here in Claudia's mind, imo, is just that the situation is more dire than Elizabeth thought. It's not just that Gorbachev is maybe giving away this one important thing it's that he's already giving away *everything.* He's not one of them. He doesn't care about all the stuff they bond over with Paige. He wants the to be like the Americans--just as Elizabeth said to Philip. He doesn't respect the past.

Gorbatchev certainly didn't want to be like the Americans. He was a Communist and wanted only renew the USSR. He never saw what the consequence would be - he was carried away by the events.   

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Actually in the scene of the Soviet movie that was shown there was exactly those things that Philip detests in the USSR and has now abondeded: that one can't have own opinions but must just follow the the party line. 

 

Oh right, I didn't mean that he was watching the movie and thinking this was what he was fighting for in terms of the system being portrayed there. Although I haven't seen that movie I know what it's about. I meant that he was looking at a movie that was being open about how terrible the system could be and this is what he wants to help--these imperfect people in this imperfect society he hopes to make better. It seems like a strong choice to specifically choose a movie that's criticizing the place from within, just as Oleg is doing. It's not a movie he would choose if he was looking to be inspired by nostalgic heroics like a WWII epic, for instance. 

 

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Despite her illness, she died at home - wouldn't that demand an inquest in the US?

I can't say for sure but I doubt it since she was already under hospice care with a healthcare aid there.

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Gorbatchev certainly didn't want to be like the Americans. He was a Communist and wanted only renew the USSR. He never saw what the consequence would be - he was carried away by the events.   

Absolutely--I'm only saying this is what Claudia is telling Elizabeth and quite probably what Claudia believes. She's intentionally setting up a situation where anything different means becoming America, but of course that's not really true. Claudia probably thinks becoming more modern in general is a betrayal.

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Do soldiers discuss "a trillion times" whether it's right to kill a human being? No they didn't, They perhaps thought about it before they did it the first time, but then they get used it. After that, only something unusual raises these ponderings.

 

I just started re-watching Mutually Assured Destruction and it's interesting to remember that Philip was exactly the same as Elizabeth when the show started out. Elizabeth toward the end of the show is basically starting the same journey that Philip was starting back in S2-3. As he correctly says, it's starting to get to her. 

But back in S1 Philip is totally matter of fact about killing in the line of duty. And even in S6 he doesn't, imo, object to killing in the line of duty, he's just also looking at the bigger picture. He questions specific actions and their justifications when he feels they're specifically wrong, but he still accepts deaths as part of what they're doing. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 7:01 AM, sistermagpie said:

Really? When I watched this ep it seemed more than ever that the guy is not thinking about immunity at all. He spend the episode thinking that he was going to be killed by the woman he lives for because his country needed him. When the chips are down Philip always chooses the USSR. Rodina all the way! (That is, he chooses Elizabeth but between the unions, SSR wins....and that's literally the first time I've realized that both countries have a union-related word in their names.)

I believe it's Russia that matters to Philip rather than the USSR.  

Although the USSR was nominally an union, many parts were forcibly incorporated to it. Especially the Balts never accepted it.   

[Armchair Critic]

I thought Elizabeth looked like Michelle Pfeiffer in the blonde wig and glasses, no wonder the young guy liked it.

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 6:17 PM, Erin9 said:

This episode has a lot of series favorites for me: 

There were a lot of great openers to this show (and I certainly don’t remember all of them!)- but this is one of the all time greats: Philip telling Elizabeth EVERYTHING- that he’d spied on her, that he’d done it for their country. With that- he dispelled her belief that he no longer cared about home. And showed the lengths he’d go to accomplish his goal.  What a way to open an episode. And, of course,  she flipped out, which left us wondering what she’d do with that information. As it turns out- all she did was THINK about it and act on it in a positive manner. Never seemed to consider spilling to Claudia about what Philip had done. Which told you a lot about her and Philip’s relationship right there. And her and Claudia’s. 

Then- there’s the closing. It began and ended with Elizabeth and Philip talking about the coup, him spying on her. It seemed at the beginning they’d hit a rock bottom that even Philip killing the Kimmie op didn’t manage. And that was bad. And yet they’d come around again in the course of an episode. Well done. Impressive feat by the writers. It goes down as one of my favorite episode endings- and there were a lot of amazing ones. 

Their marriage wasn’t fixed- as Elizabeth made clear. But, they were talking to each other, on the same page about work again. Progress was made. Though Philip wisely didn’t just tell her how to contact Oleg when she asked. She was really on his side- but he couldn’t be sure. I’m glad the writers included that moment where he wasn’t yet sure he could trust her with Oleg’s life. It was smart of him. 

It also contains one of my favorite Philip lines ever: I put our country first, which is what you would have done. Nice articulation of exactly where his head was at. And a good way for Elizabeth to get what he’d done. He did what he thought was right. 

It was a great mini character arc for Elizabeth- and easy to see why it was Keri’s Emmy choice. She went from one extreme to the other, believably, in an hour. She finally listened to Philip, thought for herself- didn’t kill the intern or Nesterenko. She not only told Claudia what she thought- that Nesterenko wasn’t bad- but that she had questions. Which wound up putting her even more thoroughly in the anti-coup camp, once she realized how she’d been lied to. And then told Philip everything he needed to tell Oleg about the coup. Wow. They packed a lot in. Especially with Erika’s death. 

My only issue with the episode was the lack of Philip. Which was a season wide issue, with a few exceptions. 

Also- I think this episode shows Elizabeth was done with spying, just like Philip. She’d been burned out and exhausted all season- before the season started really- but kept trudging along anyway to complete her mission. Following orders. Falling deeper into a dark hole, cut off from her family- all of them really- including Paige. 

Regardless of the fact P/E were about to have to run, regardless of the upheaval they knew the coup news would bring to the centre/them....she was finished anyway imo. Realizing the scope of the lie and surely understanding she’d been lied to before, being unwilling to kill the intern when she knew she needed to- really said it all about where she stood on spying. 

This really was an amazing episode. And I didn’t even hit on everything.

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 9:21 PM, sistermagpie said:

This is something that's been striking me re-watching s1. I'm still early in Gregory this is a theme that's *so* consistent throughout the show, that other people are always telling Elizabeth who she should be and what she should think while Philip at most makes an argument to her for why his way of thinking is correct. Even here he's telling her to think for herself. Sure he expects that someone thinking for themselves will agree with him, but he can't know for sure. He's got plenty of good reasons to think she'll disagree with him on her own. But he just gives her all the information he has. She comes to her own conclusion when she thinks about it. 

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 1:56 AM, Erin9 said:

True. He even tells her to do what she wants with what he just said- while telling her to think about what she’s doing, that she’s still responsible for what she does- despite her orders. 

He doesn’t even say anything about what she should do about him. He put himself in danger telling her- as he said. 

He obviously thinks she should agree. But- he’s telling her to work it out. 

I don’t think the showrunners acknowledge it, but I think Philip did spend the episode concerned she might turn on him. It’s logical, for one thing. It also helps explain some of what little we saw him do. He wasn’t even fully convinced she was on his side when she came in and said she was. He made Elizabeth spell it all out to him so he could deliver the message. 

After rewatching I find these interpretations really super.

In the final season P&E seemed to different values and after Philip agreed to help Oleg, they were opponents and all seemed to build towards the confrontation between them. Philip telling Elizabeth "all" was a really big suprise.

Philip took a really big risk but actually it was his best option, both to get his marriage on the right track again and to prevent whatever bad Elizabeth was ordered to do by opponents of Gorbatchow.    

And Philip was right: Elizabeth was understandably angry but she didn't go straightaway to Claudia to reveal Philip's "betrayal".

Spoiler

It was as desicive as Stan going alone to meet P&E in S10.  Comparing the garage scene Philip did masterful job with Elizabeth, although I don't think that he actually manipulated her, unlike Stan.    

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

After rewatching I find these interpretations really super.

In the final season P&E seemed to different values and after Philip agreed to help Oleg, they were opponents and all seemed to build towards the confrontation between them. Philip telling Elizabeth "all" was a really big suprise.

Philip took a really big risk but actually it was his best option, both to get his marriage on the right track again and to prevent whatever bad Elizabeth was ordered to do by opponents of Gorbatchow.    

And Philip was right: Elizabeth was understandably angry but she didn't go straightaway to Claudia to reveal Philip's "betrayal".

This makes me think of the conversation that Philip and Sandra had after they met at EST. Philip had told her that Elizabeth didn't know he was going to EST and Sandra didn't think it was a good idea to not tell her. Stan, earlier, had said to Philip that anybody who was married had secrets. But they didn't really mean the same thing--and it's something the show often got into. On one hand there's the fact that, as Elizabeth says, nobody tells everybody everything. It's fine to have things you keep to yourself because you don't want to share them.

But at a certain point that becomes lying. In the conversation between Sandra and Philip she says that his lying to Elizabeth is like lying to himself, and I think that's something we see going on with them in S6. The secrets they're keeping from each other do seem to reflect ways they're lying to themselves, cutting themselves off from parts of who they really are.

In the end both of them were given information and asked to choose what to do with it (Philip by Oleg, Elizabeth by Philip) and they both made the choice the other person would have made, while still being different people.