S07.E19: Flower Child

[formerlyfreedom]

Tilly and Rogers find themselves in danger after an encounter with Eloise, forcing Tilly to make a life-altering decision when Rogers’ life is threatened. Meanwhile, Henry and Jacinda’s relationship takes a step forward, but despite Lucy’s efforts, their union doesn’t provide the answers she’s seeking. In a flashback, young Gothel seeks revenge after her home is destroyed.

 

[Worsel]

The writers ripped off Stephen King’s Carrie for this clunky dull Gothel plot.  It was almost as boring as watching Henry and Jacinda talk about their relationship.  Such a let down after last week’s episode.  The only saving grace was Rose Reynolds who is a joy to watch.  Too bad the material is not good enough to take advantage of her excellent acting.

[RandomWatcher]

So the land without magic used to be a land with magic before Gothal went 'must kill everyone' on it?

[Rumsy4]

Rogers and Tilly killed me with all the feels.

Even Henry's scenes weren't bad.

As for Gothel...I was rolling my eyes so hard, they almost rolled out of my head,

Why was that rich woman against magic, and why did she murder all the nymphs? And why didn't the nymphs save themselves, when Gothel single-handedly saved herself? While we're at it, how did Prince James murder all those giants?

Edited April 28, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Terrafamilia]

Carrie meets Theatre of Blood. "Thousands" of years ago in the late 18th-early 19th century Gothel was a wood nymph adorning her hair with dead butterflies. And all conveniently off-screen a mind-controlled policeman awakens all the other witches, who aren't even human by the way if we take Gothel's word for it.

I had thought the writing couldn't get any worse and they have to go an prove me wrong.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Even Henry's scenes weren't bad.

I got distracted with Henry's scenes early on.

When he was showing Jacinda the DNA results, I suddenly remembered that Henry has memories of a dead wife and child.  It seemed awful that he wasn't struggling with that in that moment. 

Then I remembered what show I was watching and the writers probably forgot about Henry's fake familial memories too.

[CCTC]

Really superficial - but the mean girls and all the gowns looked like they were cheap knock-offs from the 1980s.  Plus the party that she eviserated did not look that great.  I am not sure the head mean girl really had much reason to be smug and condescending.  The whole plot did not make a lot of sense.  I must have missed how the mean girl was able to get to the nymphs.  

I did not really care for Gothel before she turned evil, so I really don't care for her now.  The actress does have moments though when she does succeed at being sinister.  

All the coat hangers are basically anonymous witches who really could be played by coat hangers and it would not make a difference.

I am not sure I am falling the time line -- Gothel and her first recruit went to the land without magic 1000 years ago.  I am assuming she must have come back and forth because she had to conceive Alice in the disenchanted forest or the wish realm or where-ever she violated Wish Hook.

Finding the glass slipper seemed a little convenient - and how did it make it to the cursed world?  I suppose that is consistent with the story where the slippers survive the spell breaking at midnight.

Henry is kind of playing his role like he is in some light romantic comedy with his facial expressions.

I am OK with cheesy special effects, but I think Bewitched might have had better special effects in 1964.  Endora also would have blown Gothel out of the water.

It might not be the best pacing when you have your mid-season cliffhanger and don't revisit that plot line for close to 5 months.

So are they going to just pretend Facilier did not murder Nick and play him off as a good guy who might end up as Regina's true love?  They love their shock murders but never consider who it affects the character long-term.

Just now, ParadoxLost said:

Then I remembered what show I was watching and the writers probably forgot about Henry's fake familial memories too.

I bet they won't be mentioned again.  When is the last time he has even brought them up?

[Shanna Marie]

Their inability to develop or deal with anything resembling a coherent magical system just exploded violently. So now suddenly everyone hates magic so much that they kill all the magical creatures, who can somehow be killed in spite of having magic. And that's how we got a world without magic. So Gothel created our world. And I guess she cast the curse to get back to her home world? Because a bean wouldn't work, in spite of Storybrooke being here so that bean travel works?

3 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Really superficial - but the mean girls and all the gowns looked like they were cheap knock-offs from the 1980s.

I was thinking the same thing, that they looked like they escaped from Original Recipe Dynasty. So, basically, thousands of years ago (which was still during recorded history), there was a society on earth that looked like the 1780s meets the 1980s. Oooookay.

7 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I am not sure I am falling the time line -- Gothel and her first recruit went to the land without magic 1000 years ago.

I think they were in the Land Without Magic, and it became the Land Without Magic when all the nymphs were killed and Gothel and her first recruit, the last bit of magic, left. So they've now come back to where these relics from a thousand or so years ago are somehow intact in the basement of a Seattle movie theater and no one noticed these things.

4 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I am not sure the head mean girl really had much reason to be smug and condescending.  The whole plot did not make a lot of sense.  I must have missed how the mean girl was able to get to the nymphs. 

I think the mean girl stole Gothel's key, or something like that, but yeah, Mean Girl was so very random. Her characterization makes cardboard look nuanced and three-dimensional.

[Rumsy4]

19 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

"Thousands" of years ago in the late 18th-early 19th century

*Snerk*

14 minutes ago, CCTC said:

All the coat hangers are basically anonymous witches who really could be played by coat hangers and it would not make a difference.

They were still played by coat-hangers in that scene when the poor Desk Sergeant led Gothel to them!

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

They were still played by coat-hangers in that scene when the poor Desk Sergeant led Gothel to them!

I guess we're never going to get the Desk Sergeant's centric episode in which we learn his fairy tale identity. Or is he an ordinary Seattle cop?

[StaceyNotStacie]

This episode felt like a waste to me. I have no interest in Gothel’s backstory and hearing it did not make me sympathetic to her character at all. We only have a few more episodes left and I would rather they be spent on other characters. 

[CCTC]

18 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think they were in the Land Without Magic, and it became the Land Without Magic when all the nymphs were killed and Gothel and her first recruit, the last bit of magic, left. So they've now come back to where these relics from a thousand or so years ago are somehow intact in the basement of a Seattle movie theater and no one noticed these things.

Thanks - that makes sense (well - in a bad plot sort of way).  Although that means a thousand of years ago in Seattle - in the year 1017 there was a fairly advanced civilization where the decor of the castles would later influence whoever decorated Donald Trump's NYC penthouse.

4 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

it did not make me sympathetic to her character at all

Yes - she was pretty unlikable even before she went all Carrie.

[Writing Wrongs]

So Gothel is Poison Ivy?

I guess I'm in the minority, because I dislike the acting for Tilly. I hate the way she talks and acts.

I'll be glad when the show is done, so I can be done.

Sorry to be so negative, but I miss the old OUAT. I just can't connect to this season at all.

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking about this some more, and it gets more and more iffy. Weren't there indigenous people living in the Pacific Northwest a thousand or so years ago? I'm pretty sure they weren't mostly white Victorian Dynasty Heathers, and I doubt they'd have been hostile and destructive to nature spirits. So they basically erased the Native population for this story. Not to mention, the witch hunts/burnings came around much later. A thousand years ago, pagan beliefs that involved nature magic and spirits associated with nature would have been very common in a lot of the world. Trying to fit their crazy timeline and lack of worldbuilding into our world was a big mistake if they weren't going to do the research that goes with it.

It would also be nice if they were consistent about how magic is viewed. When most of the people they've shown having magical powers have been evil and destructive, the only way they can seem to keep the people who see magic as evil from looking wrong is to make them one-dimensional and not get into their viewpoint at all. When the magical people destroy entire civilizations when someone looks askance at them, the people questioning magic don't look too crazy. If you're one of the few good magical people, you'd have to be sensitive to their fears. But then the "magic is evil!" stuff only comes up when it's needed for a plot. Otherwise, no one seems to care much, one way or another.

[mythoughtis]

Who exactly are these witches that were awoken by the non magical police officer?  I thought only magical people could wake others?

 I think Tilly giving Rogers a kiss on the forehead is what will break the curse. 

[Camera One]

On this week's episode of "Who Stole the Green Wigs From the Halloween Store".

Before watching, I was trying to guess what was going to happen and there's no way I could have predicted the WTF that they pulled out of you-know-where.  The Gothel flashback/present-day stuff was like a really bad Mad Lib that made no sense.  

As many asked, how the hell did that hypnotized police officer "wake" the witches?  The sisters need a man to wake them?  When did Mean Girl have time during the ball to go murder all the Tree Nymphs?  Why would the Nymphs have a "last safe refuge" in the Land Without Magic?  We did not get any explanation about why Gothel did nothing for weeks (even though she apparently had all sorts of powers) and then suddenly decided it was FINALLY time to get the Coven together.  And Gothel spent thousands of years, and still couldn't find 8 women to be in her Coven?

Jacinda's acting was really distracting.  Her wide-eyed look of wonder comes off as completely vacant.  I really couldn't buy any of the stuff about Henry or Jacinda believing.  It felt like they just jumped to Henry believing after 18 episodes of nothingness.  And LOL at the added line from Jacinda to remind us she was "a struggling single mom".

And then the line that seemed written for promos: "There is a war brewing and no one in this city is safe."  So Dr. Facilier shared everything with Drew?  Speaking of which, are we supposed to believe Dr. Facilier is such an A-ok guy now, since he's bantering with Lucy.  He didn't willingly try to help his beloved girlfriend Roni but Lucy could convince him?  

I don't know what it is with Lucy but I found her really annoying in the "sassy" scenes with Dr. Facilier.  I don't know if it's the dialogue or what, but the scene between Lucy and Jacinda didn't work either.  She says stuff that no one her age would say and it sounds unnatural.  I don't get how they wrote for Young Henry just fine in Season 1 but in Season 7, it's so coying.

The only bright light in this episode was Tilly.  She had some great line deliveries.

Otherwise, this episode was an absolute mess.

Was this the first episode without any of the original characters being played by original actors?  (if counting Whook as a new character)

Edited April 28, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

55 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Jacinda's acting was really distracting.  Her wide-eyed look of wonder comes off as completely vacant.  I really couldn't buy any of the stuff about Henry or Jacinda believing.  It felt like they just jumped to Henry believing after 18 episodes of nothingness.  And LOL at the added line from Jacinda to remind us she was "a struggling single mom".

This was so cringe-worthy. I couldn't wait for the scene to end! As was Lucy's reaction when True Love's kiss didn't work.

Also, a glass slipper doth not a Cinderella make.

[Camera One]

I was just thinking... knowing now that Gothel was a Tree Nymph totally explains why she wants Rumple's Dagger and why she kept looking for The Guardian... right?

I thought a bunch of broken glass went into Henry's heart?  Was that supposed to be a good thing?  I thought that was supposed to pull the poison out of Henry's heart.

I also don't understand what exactly is supposed to happen when the Curse "breaks".  Everyone gets their memories back?  They go back to the Disenchanted Forest?  Why would Dr. Facilier want the Curse broken?  Wouldn't that make it even harder to defeat the Coven?

Edited April 28, 2018 by Camera One

[Worsel]

8 hours ago, CCTC said:

Really superficial - but the mean girls and all the gowns looked like they were cheap knock-offs from the 1980s.  Plus the party that she eviserated did not look that great.  I am not sure the head mean girl really had much reason to be smug and condescending.  The whole plot did not make a lot of sense.  I must have missed how the mean girl was able to get to the nymphs.  

Yes I was rolling my eyes while Gothel was admiring the dresses conveniently spread out on the couches.  And how dumb were the mean girls - they don't like magic but decide to play a nasty trick on someone they KNOW has magic who could kill them.  

8 hours ago, CCTC said:

All the coat hangers are basically anonymous witches who really could be played by coat hangers and it would not make a difference.

 

I think it would have been more entertaining to use magical evil coat hangers.  

8 hours ago, CCTC said:

I am OK with cheesy special effects, but I think Bewitched might have had better special effects in 1964.  Endora also would have blown Gothel out of the water.

Oh yes! I always loved Endora's one-liners.  I thought the destruction of the party not nearly as impressive as the original movie version of Carrie.  

[txhorns79]

I didn't mind the episode.  I do feel a lot like they are rushing to get the ending they want, so the shortcuts they are taking are much more obvious (like the cop waking up all these women off screen), and we get a kind of half-assed back story for Goethel where everything looks very cheap.  Heck, you could even see her blond hair under the nymph wig.  

[Rumsy4]

Why even have the timeline be thousands of years ago? That Nymph enclave was supposed to be the last bastion of magic in the land--they may as well have set the event in the last century or two. I guess they wanted this to be the Great Mythology that explains why our world alone doesn't have any magic. So, what the even heck was she doing for thousands of years? Twiddling her thumbs?

And if we did have to be saddled with the hippie bitch witch's Tragic Backstory(TM), at the least they could've explained how she ended up in the Tower, or why she cursed WHook and Alice. It's not like she cared a hang about Alice until she found the latter had magic. And there's no explanation why she was after Ana, and didn't bother with Alice until then. 

I just couldn't take her remotely seriously after that bad wig/skin paint job. LMAO

Edited April 28, 2018 by Rumsy4

[CCTC]

49 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I just couldn't take her remotely seriously after that bad wig/skin paint job. LMAO

I should have included this to my superficial comments about the prom dress, even if the episode had been beautifully written, I would have been taken out of the scene with the make-up and the costumes of the nymphs.  The dead butterflies alone would have probably done it (it is like the raided a little girl's barrette drawer). 

They also probably needed to have Gothel have more meaningful interactions with her mother in order to make her death have more impact.  Plus how the mother was lying there while giving a cliched death speech and then instantly dying after being able to speak with a fairly strong voice almost seemed more of a satire than what was supposed to be a moving moment.

Edited April 28, 2018 by CCTC

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Plus how the mother was lying there while giving a cliched death speech and then instantly dying after being able to speak with a fairly strong voice almost seemed more of a satire than what was supposed to be a moving moment.

And for some reason, the green skin makeup had washed off at that point. Was that supposed to be a sign of death? lol

[Shanna Marie]

58 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I just couldn't take her remotely seriously after that bad wig/skin paint job.

I wasn't sure if it was a wig or just that spray-on temporary Halloween haircolor, since when they showed Gothel from behind, there were patches without the green color showing through. That's the difficulty of coloring curly hair. Though with Gothel, I suspect even the "natural" hair is a wig, and they sprayed temporary haircolor on the wig.

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

And if we did have to be saddled with the hippie bitch witch's Tragic Backstory(TM), at the least they could've explained how she ended up in the Tower, or why she cursed WHook and Alice. It's not like she cared a hang about Alice until she found the latter had magic. And there's no explanation why she was after Ana, and didn't bother with Alice until then. 

We know she ended up in the tower when Rapunzel trapped her there after she tried to stick Ana in the tower and make her the Guardian.

But we don't know why she was bothering with finding a Guardian when she knew Alice was her daughter, and including Alice in the Coven seemed to be more about being her daughter than about being the Guardian, so why the bother? And I guess she didn't need Rumple's dagger, after all, so why bother with that? We also still have no idea why she made herself be Victoria's prisoner during the curse.

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

don't know what it is with Lucy but I found her really annoying in the "sassy" scenes with Dr. Facilier.  I don't know if it's the dialogue or what, but the scene between Lucy and Jacinda didn't work either.  She says stuff that no one her age would say and it sounds unnatural. 

I was getting massive "precocious TV commercial child" vibes. It was very annoying. She was visibly acting.

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

Jacinda's acting was really distracting.  Her wide-eyed look of wonder comes off as completely vacant.  I really couldn't buy any of the stuff about Henry or Jacinda believing.  It felt like they just jumped to Henry believing after 18 episodes of nothingness.  And LOL at the added line from Jacinda to remind us she was "a struggling single mom".

You know, their "reunion" and big kiss would have been more dramatic and moving if we'd seen more than about a minute of their real relationship in the past. As it is, they've never convinced me that they ever had any kind of big love, so I haven't exactly been dying to see them back together, especially since there's been nothing stopping them from getting together now. As a result, I got a giggle out of the fact that it apparently wasn't a True Love kiss. After all that buildup, and nada. But then, I've also been wondering why everyone assumes that their kiss would do it, since they're basically the Charmings of this curse, and Mary Margaret and David fell in love and kissed without that breaking the curse. It's also funny that they've been so focused on keeping Henry and Jacinda from kissing (well, sometimes) for fear of breaking the curse and killing Henry while not thinking anything of Tilly and Rogers spending so much time together when it was a parent/child kiss that broke the first curse.

[Mitch]

What the FREAK was that mess supposed to be? They aren't even trying anymore are they?

As has been touched upon here....THOUSANDS of years ago they had blond women in period clothes who spoke perfect "english" and there was make up and hair spray...I really do think the writers are just really stupid and thought that the late 1700s were..."thousands of years ago!"

I like the idea that the LWOM had magic but we wisely snuffed it out...I never can get over shows that show evil people using magic and then think that the people who want to take the weapon away are even more EVIL!!! I had actually wanted Camelot to take place in our world and that Merlin banished magic from out world, creating all the magical realms which were just stuck in time.  But this makes no sense. I actually like a coven of witches to and for the characters to be stuck with "normal" people but as usual they take a good idea and just screw it over and not even buy it dinner.  How did Gothel and her girlfriend never age?

I LOL that even this show realizes Henry and J are..."nothing!" The Henry actor has the most simpleton look on his face at all time and I do wish the coven included the Bewitched characters,  Endora would appear and call Herny "Dumb-dumb!" Serena would make the moves on Hook and call Henry..."tall, dark and BORING"..Uncle Arthur would appear in an ice bucket at Roni's  and make the moves on Hook, Dr. Bombay would chase Regina around the bar, and make the moves on Hook...and Aunt Clara would hopefully screw up a spell that would send us back to Season 1!

God at least when they were trying it was more fun to make fun of the crap..but this...

Edited to add...my favorite part in this exercise of "just going through the paces until we clean out the studio sets" is when the two skinny witches overpowered Hook, a cop and dragged him against his will out of the room, the other cop didn't even pull a gun to force him.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Mitch

[kili]

Quote

Weren't there indigenous people living in the Pacific Northwest a thousand or so years ago? 

That was particularly tone deaf of our dear writers...especially in Washington State where there was the Kenniwick Man controversy (an ancient skeleton that was initially and incorrectly identified as Caucasoid which caused years of debates and lawsuits). 

So, there is a palace of mean girls who throw parties? And when they are not throwing parties, they are plotting the death of wood nymphs. Why couldn't Mother Wood Nymph do anything when Gothel had no trouble taking down everyone? Is it because she'd rather watch her daughters die than fight back?

Why did the police officer have to wake up the witches?  I can see why he might be needed to lure Rogers into a trap, but what could he do to wake up witches that Gothel could not? Does he have nascent magical powers?

Samedi is killing people one episode and helping them the next. What am I to make of this? Are the writers just throwing darts at a plot board?'

So, help me with my math....earlier, Gothel was looking for one witch to fill out her coven so she could do the magical thing she wanted to do. She held the Hunger Games - Witch Edition which Drizella won. Since then, Drizella went home and Nick/Jack/Hansel killed two members the coven. Then, she added Tilly. My calculator must be broken because 1 person does not replace 3. Was Gothel phoning a witch temp agency while Deputy DoWhatEverThePlotRequiresFromPolicingFoodTrucksToWorkingTheFrontDesk was waking up the rest of the coven?

[Rumsy4]

28 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

We know she ended up in the tower when Rapunzel trapped her there after she tried to stick Ana in the tower and make her the Guardian.

Oops, I forgot. :-p

33 minutes ago, Mitch said:

I really do think the writers are just really stupid and thought that the late 1700s were..."thousands of years ago!"

But even with that--the black woman wouldn't be socializing equally with the Mean Girl's crowd in America of the times. The writers didn't even remotely try with this episode. 

3 minutes ago, kili said:

Is it because she'd rather watch her daughters die than fight back?

She's a True Hero. At least she didn't die with a Black Spot in her heart.

[Camera One]

Between Lucy and Jacinda and the laughably costumed and made up Tree Nymphs, the whole episode felt like a high school production.  Gothel's mother's monologue was so long and clunky that I can't blame the actress for not making it sound convincing, especially when wearing that garish getup.  

We watch this show for hope and optimism, so I'm sure we all really enjoyed the massacre that occurred onscreen.  So far, we usually see the aftermath of massacres, not a massacre in progress.

The Old Love, New Love magical spell was as usual completely random and made up on the spot.  And oh, the old key is still here! moment, which suggests Gothel was pretty much making it up on the spot too?

12 hours ago, kili said:

Why couldn't Mother Wood Nymph do anything when Gothel had no trouble taking down everyone?

She should have done a Blue and kicked Gothel out on her bottom when she first began fraternizing with evil humans.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

24 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The Old Love, New Love magical spell was as usual completely random and made up on the spot. 

It was also ridiculously silly. I can see the appeal of wordless hand-waving to do magic. 

[tennisgurl]

*very long sigh* Alright show, lets unpack this. 

So, they finally decided to do a sort of mythology episode and explain how the Land Without Magic become so magic-less, only seven seasons in. And, to the surprise of no one, its utterly nonsensical and filled to the brim with plot holes, and raises more questions than it answers. So, thousands of years ago, there was another human society that was kind of like our worlds Anglosphere in the 18th/19th century, and wood nymphs (and maybe other magical creatures that are already extinct?) live in hiding, but humans know about them and hate them because...reasons. But then Gothel let humans know about her nymph collective (somehow?) and everyone died, so Gothel decided to wipe the Earth of humanity and peace out for a few thousand years while humans apparently started from scratch (did humans evolve all over again?) and, through wacky coincidences, ended up creating almost the exact same kind of society's that Gothels ancient world had, and now she wants to bring back the plants and destroy humans again. Maybe this is why the show never tries real world building, because it freaking sucks at it. Are you telling me that no paleontologists or archaeologists ever found the traces of an advanced society lying around, covered in ancient plant life? No modern plant life underneath all the ancient stuff? No weird new human lifeforms? Nobody noticed? And, did they in this early world manage to colonize or immigrate around the world, because I sure didnt see many Native Americans at that party, and I am pretty sure they would be the people native to the Seattle area in a time before the US existed. So was it really the 18th/19th century style, with all those cultures all over the world? They hid that much? And the one collection of magic was in this one random place? And, if this is how the land without magic came to be, then why does Gothel even want to come back? Wouldn't she be happier somewhere else anyway? Or is this still a part of her vengeance plan? Why did humans want to kill magic anyway? Why does it seem sometimes like anyone can learn magic, and sometimes you have to be a witch or a nymphs or whatever? Seriously, how has no one caught onto the fact there Earth was basically the 18th century a thousand years ago?!?! Can plants really cover up that much? Was she thinking "I have to be super careful and hide the entirety of this fully populated world so that future humans dont see them, because it would spoil my big surprise when I show up again!" or something? Because, she seems to have peaced out pretty quickly, and if this ball had a whole class of nobility, and since the people we saw were of carious races, we have to assume that they or their ancestors came from somewhere else, so this means there is a whole world out there, that she totally destroyed and hid! With plants! Plants dont last forever damn it! Why oh why bring our world into this? This is nonsense, even by this shows standards!

The production values of this episode looked like a crappy middle school play. Those wigs! That stupid body paint! Those prom dresses! No wonder the women playing her mom (Mother Nature?) seemed so bored during her dying speech. That was a terribly written dying speech, by the way. It went on and on, like, get on with the dying already lady. Also, this continues the Once theme of people with magic powers and fantasy creatures coming in two variations. Either totally useless and unable to protect themselves or anyone else (the nymphs, the fairies) and evil monsters of doom and destruction who, even if they arent evil, are quick to turn to genocide for any slight that sets them off (Gothel, Regina), and thats about it. Sadly, I even consider Emma's Savior magic to be of the useless variety, as all it ever really seemed to do was give her the shakes and allow herself to fling people around with her jazz hands sometimes. Mostly it just gave her the shakes. I just dont get it. If they want to do the Humans Hunt Magical Creatures and Thats Bad thing that they keep randomly bringing up this season, why not have a few people with magic who can actually do some good with it? I dont get it! 

Lucy is normally just kind of there, but i think her greater focus this week showed that she is basically an annoying TV precocious child, and her scenes were super lame. I feel bad, because you can tell the young actress is trying, but it comes off as so "I am acting now" that it loses all charm or interest. But, the dialogue they gave her was so crap, most adults probably couldn't have saved it. Speaking of, the guy who plays Henry just has the most blah expressions on his face, while Jacinda has some serious bug eggs going on. They also have absolute anti chemistry, so I cant really get excited about them finding each other. Which...they already did so...drama over?

Really, the only stuff I can get into this week is the Rogers/Tilly stuff, which is well acted, and I love seeing them work together. Oh the feels they give me! They seem like actual characters, and not just props to advance the plot, or random weirdoes who are being stuck into places of beloved characters (see! glass slipper! totally Cinderella!) despite seeming nothing like them or their stories. 

The one thing that this best story does kind of explain is the fact that, for a Land Without Magic, there sure seems to be little pockets around of it here and there, and that always seemed weird to me if they wanted to keep emphasizing its lack of magic. So, that does at least explain that. It raises a billion other questions and that could have been answered much more easily if, say, the Nymphs were unknown to much of humanity, but were killed by some extremists, and Gothel just killed them and the people around them, but at least its something. Not that A&E had this planned from the start or anything of course, this is all just kind of falling into places, as they frantically try to fill in ideas and throw darts on their board to see what randomness ensures next. 

Henry's half assed murder board looks as crappy as those wigs in the flashbacks. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Mitch]

tennisgurl, you can drop that mic as your post summed it all up..

I wanted to find out why there is a LWOM...(which is different from our LWOM mind you as A & E had to pull that out of their assess to explain their dumb Hamilton ticket joke which was screwed up their timeline even more..) but, yes, they screwed the whole thing up in trying to build this mythology.  I should have learned when I was excited to watch the first days in Storybrooke after the Curse brought everyone here...(I was thinking Regina was going to have BIG 80s hair and shoulder pads..) but that screwed up their mythology...(since Regina could control Graham with his heart in the LWOM, why did she not just tell him to leave Emma alone in S1 why did she have to kill him...) and it was a big damn bore. Only these writers could create situations that other writers would have loved to expand and explore, and make them all, stupid and boring.

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

And if we did have to be saddled with the hippie bitch witch's Tragic Backstory(TM), at the least they could've explained how she ended up in the Tower, or why she cursed WHook and Alice. It's not like she cared a hang about Alice until she found the latter had magic. And there's no explanation why she was after Ana, and didn't bother with Alice until then. 

 

This totally made no sense with this new backstory.  She was the "mother" of all magic now so wouldn't it be uh, obvious, that her daughter would have magic?  Why didn't she groom Alice to become the next big bad in her Coven?  

But no, she HATES humans so she recruits HUMANS to be in her Coven.  

Oh yeah, and suddenly she needs HUMAN Drizella to enact a Curse, so she could travel back to the Land Without Magic *Except For Thousands Of Years Ago).

Edited April 28, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

This episode was the weakest of the second half of S7 so far, imo. Like most of the flashbacks this season, they were incredibly phoned in and didn't make any sense within the timeline. Gothel shares her story with Ursula, Ingrid, Tiny, and Elsa - "humans are baaad". I've seen her backstory so many times before on the same show. It over-simplified a character who seemed more complex at first glance. 

How do you jump from "I might be Lucy's father" to "everything in my book is real"? I wish we could have seen the Truest Believer start to figure things out earlier in the season instead of offscreen in one of the last few episodes. The way everyone believed in magic in this episode felt very cringey and weird. Their reactions were all, "um yeah, okay whatever". They don't ask questions. They just sort of accept lifechanging revelations like they just realized how much they could save by switching insurance companies. Woop-de-doo.

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But no, she HATES humans so she recruits HUMANS to be in her Coven.  

She didn't even start hating humans until this episode. Shows you how much the writers planned.

[CCTC]

They should have given up the need to have a flashback every episode about 4 years ago.  Sometimes they can be useful, but often they just break up the flow, don't offer anything new, and take up time that could be otherwise better spent.  I think I started feeling this during 5A.  They had Camelot to explore and they were already splitting some of the time with Story Brooke, since Camelot itself was a flash back.  Between spending time in Camelot of the very recent past, Story Brooke,, and the flashback of the week, nothing really got the attention or the time it deserved.

[Camera One]

I'm trying to remember all the things I loved about this episode.  I was moved by the angst the Sabine felt when she learned her friend Drew was in prison.  Regina and Rumple dealing with the aftermath of the previous episode was very powerful as well.  

[tennisgurl]

Ahhhh @Mitch you make me blush! Really, the more I think about it, the less sense it all makes, and the more questions I ask. Like, why do they keep referring to people without powers as humans, but people with powers, like the woman Gothel recruited in the past, are apparently not humans? What? So, if you have magic, are you a different species? A subspecies? I know that some other shows or books or such say that witches or magical people are a different species, but they're still connected to humanity enough to have kids with them, and they still sleep and eat and do people stuff. More, like I said, of a subspecies of humanity instead of something totally different. Or are they saying that magical people are somehow not humans? Because, that sounds like something a villain would say as an excuse to kill people. When have we seen evidence of that? They're still people, they just have magic powers. Or are they not? 

See, this is what happens when you never explain how the magic in your universe works! It makes everything super confusing and nonsensical! 

Edited April 28, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Mitch]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Ahhhh @Mitch you make me blush! Really, the more I think about it, the less sense it all makes, and the more questions I ask. Like, why do they keep referring to people without powers as humans, but people with powers, like the woman Gothel recruited in the past, are apparently not humans? What? So, if you have magic, are you a different species? A subspecies? I know that some other shows or books or such say that witches or magical people are a different species, but they're still connected to humanity enough to have kids with them, and they still sleep and eat and do people stuff. More, like I said, of a subspecies of humanity instead of something totally different? Or are they saying that magical people are somehow not humans? Because, that sounds like something a villain would say as an excuse to kill people. When have we seen evidence of that? They're still people, they just have magic powers. Or are they not? 

See, this is what happens when you never explain how the magic in your universe works! It makes everything super confusing and nonsensical! 

Also..I thought you could "Learn" magic and that everyone could do it as long as they had the "talent" for it, like I guess playing the violin.  Regina learned magic..Cora learned magic...Regina told Henry she could teach him magic...Zelena was a super Tabitha Stephens prodigy but Emma had it within herself and could use it in the LWOM..No one in the writers room thought or talked about this???

[Camera One]

One would think Tree Nymph magic is innate and unique but apparently Gothel could have taught all the Mean Girls?  Drizella killed her fiancé with a vine, so did she learn that from Gothel?  But in "Wake Up Call", it was implied she had just been taught magic by Regina.  

Edited April 28, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I was moved by the angst the Sabine felt when she learned her friend Drew was in prison. 

Lol. Does she even know that he is (was?) in prison? Or did she think he'd shirked off from work? I couldn't catch what Jacinda actually told Henry. 

So, Jacinda just sits at home and only goes to help at the food truck when there's no one else to help? Or is she now the recipient of all the Tremaine wealth? 

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Does she even know that he is (was?) in prison? Or did she think he'd shirked off from work? I couldn't catch what Jacinda actually told Henry. 

I couldn't catch it either, but it looks like Sabine didn't know.  Here was the dialogue:

JACINDA: Sabine is texting me. Drew bailed on work. I got to get to the truck. She needs me to man the fryer.

HENRY: Hey, are you leaving for Sabine or... because I freaked you out?

JACINDA: Maybe a little of both. 

-------

Just reading those romantic lines makes me tear up inside all over again.

I'm happy that Control Freak Sabine is now so willing to ask for help on the food truck.  Who says this show doesn't do character growth.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

30 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Who says this show doesn't do character growth.

And it all happens off-screen. :-p

30 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I couldn't catch it either, but it looks like Sabine didn't know. 

And when Sabine finds out she misjudged him, she'll feel so remorseful that she'll confess her love to him. 

[Camera One]

This show is so full of philosophy and life lessons, that I thought we could study the wise words of the Tree Nymph mother.

Quote

Humans are mercurial creatures, conflicted and irrational.
Darling, you are of eternal nature, like all of our kind.
Raised in the "The steadiness of seasons.
What is before you is a great honor.
The mantle of "Mother" will be yours.
Well, when I pass the mantle onto you, you will be mother of all of the magic in the land.
That is freedom.

Call me crazy, but isn't Gothel rather mercurial, conflicted and irrational as well?  No matter how steady the seasons, she raised a psycho.

Quote

Tree Nymph Mother:

No, my darling, you haven't failed me.
Nature has taken its course, and now you are the Mother.
And you hold a very powerful seed of magic within you.

Gothel:
They'll pay.  Every one of them will pay.

Tree Nymph Mother
No.
Instead, you find a place to grow anew.
That is your responsibility now.
Remember what you were destined to blossom into.
My daughter, all mothers know that only goodness can bear sweet fruit.

All the tree nymphs dying is "nature taking its course"?  

It sounds like the Mother was reciting a bunch of Hallmark cards she picked up from the Nature and Serenity section of the store.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Camera One

[kili]

Quote

But no, she HATES humans so she recruits HUMANS to be in her Coven. 

She hates humans so much she remains in her human disguise at all times. Even when she is alone. No more natural wood nymph for her.

And her daughter only inherited her magic - none of her greenness or butterfly infestations.

[StaceyNotStacie]

When Henry and Jacinda’s kiss didn’t break the curse, was I the only one waiting for Alice to kiss Hook on the cheek or forehead and break the curse?

Edited April 28, 2018 by Stacey1014
Kiss not kids

[jay741982]

4 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

When Henry and Jacinda’s kids didn’t break the curse, was I the only one waiting for Alice to kiss Hook on the cheek or forehead and break the curse?

I was hoping that was gonna happen!

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

When Henry and Jacinda’s kiss didn’t break the curse, was I the only one waiting for Alice to kiss Hook on the cheek or forehead and break the curse?

 

I am hoping it might still happen. But somehow, I feel the writers will stick to a Henry. Maybe with Lucy instead of Jacinda, although I recall that didn't work either, when Lucy was in the hospital. lol

Edited April 29, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, kili said:

She hates humans so much she remains in her human disguise at all times. Even when she is alone. No more natural wood nymph for her.

Probably because they didn't decide she was a wood nymph until they wrote this episode. That's also why her spell that makes her look human instead of nymphy passed on to her daughter.

2 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

When Henry and Jacinda’s kiss didn’t break the curse, was I the only one waiting for Alice to kiss Hook on the cheek or forehead and break the curse?

I'm still hoping, and it would fit with the show's history, given that it was Henry and Emma that broke the first curse, so another parent-child combo should break this one. Plus, Alice being the Guardian might be like Emma being the Savior, so the kiss has extra power.

[Camera One]

Or maybe Regina and Dr. Facilier, to confirm it's indeed a True Love pairing.

I was surprised Grandmother Willow wasn't a Tree Nymph too.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Or maybe Regina and Dr. Facilier, to confirm it's indeed a True Love pairing.

I will die laughing if they do that. Honestly, it would be a fitting ending to the clusterfuck this show ended up becoming. 

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Or maybe Regina and Dr. Facilier, to confirm it's indeed a True Love pairing.

Zelena and Hades. Enough said.